Looks like the yellow and green bits will end up being the rump Ukraine.

Yes, finally we get an american Sugar Daddys perspective. May be his dominatrix Ukrainian mother in law bit the text out of him with her cast iron frying pan. Sounds like it, by the tone and the clarity of his analysis.

” the are were depopulated, and then re-settled”.

Right, there was some kind of flourishing Ancient Ukr Civilization out there, before the mythical depopulation. Happens all the time (cf. Northamerican Injuns).

“most people speak the two (closely related — me) languages”.

Which is a most natural thing to do. No explanation needed for the fact. Strange why say Americans are not speaking Dutch. The guy himself as good as just told us he learned Russian because Ukie dialect back then did not exist or wasnt in use; but, the logic of the article comes from the mother in laws frying pan..

” Ireland”. Oh, thats what triggered me to comment: comparing the Ukraine to Ireland.

The Sugar Daddy does not know the non Ukie history at all. See, Ireland vs Engkand is an example of military conquest by Cromwell . But Ukraine was non conquered by Russia. It was a Union. So the correct analogy is the Union of Scotland with England. With Scottish elites being incorporated into English ruling class, despite vastly more backward and poor character of the masses of the Scottish people compared to the English. Like, Argyles going to the Lords, while the swineherd Rob Roys literally cannot afford pants.

Very similar effect was generated between Russia and Ukraine. The swineherds went to Moscow and StPetersborough to rule. Thats the source of their current megalomania. The opera-and-ballet frequenting Russians bloody resented this, just as English resented Scotts in the times of Dr. Johnson. So it goes.

You don’t understand the Russian Russians, they are unrelenting once they get going. So the Russian Ukrainians or Russia aligned Ukrainians are going to be armed and empowered to dominate Ukraine and to reverse what the Pope, Austria Hungary and the Poles done previously.

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/03/14/the-history-of-the-destruction-of-the-russian-galicia/

Nevertheless, your map represents the reality I wrote about a few years ago. Russian has been slowly losing favor. Starting in 2022 that process is likely to be very fast.

I like your map better. It corresponds to the text I wrote.

Its amazing how different maps differ from each other. This map shows how Russian dominates the East.

That church is in communion with the Holy See in Rome and thus is Catholic but has its own rite and a married clergy except for bishops (both traditional in Eastern Rite churches). The only traditional rite the Roman hierarchy is reluctant to tolerate is its own traditional Latin rite, irony of ironies. Pope Francis is a particular offender.

Intelligent quibbles are a pleasant exception here at Unz. I’ll allow the quibble. I am pleased that my children are full-fledged. They speak the language natively. They have never been to the US, and will probably be adult before they do, if at all.

Pleasant things happen frequently here. Son Eddie and I biked out to buy food today. One of the neighborhood militia saw this old man pushing his bicycle along the steep steel ramp going alongside the 42 steps leading up to the train tracks we have to cross. He asked if he could do it for me. I assured him I’m up to it, but he insisted. So Danya (Danielo) and I got into a conversation. He offered that they can get us food if we need it. I told him I was pleased that they were there to take care of the elderly, but despite my years that description doesn’t yet fit. Others need him more.

I in turn offered to translate and do computer stuff. Doubt they will call, but they have my number.

I expect that Eddie and I will go down to the checkpoint where these guys hang out and let them enjoy some English conversation. As far as feeling Ukrainian, I never felt this close to random neighbors in Washington DC.

A large part of this piece insists on Ukrainian nationalty being based on language, the author specifically derides the notion of UKR being a dialect of RU. I can’t argue with his point, except that I’d also like a counterpoint.

I’m a bit more wary when he says “we” Ukrainians. I’m very familiar to the territory, expat and all, but I’d NEVER say I’m a *countryman of my citizenship or place of residence*.

That seems ridiculous, even after decades of inhabiting a country, one is not truly a national, if born and raised somewhere else.

Citizenship is one thing. Nationality is completely different. You can be an in-betweenie. Maybe your children can be full-fledged nationals. But this seems very much like an American attitude, not based in ethnic reality.

Polish was THE language of high culture, administration and education in most of Ukraine (and Belarus) for centuries. Even after the Tsars took over most of it. It was only in the late 18th century that Russian established itself as the cultural and administrative language in the region. So of course Ukrainian and Belarussian borrow heavily from Polish. Both those languages are basically peasant vernaculars that became written languages in the 19th century when nationalism became a thing.

I was reporting sepia-colored recollections from my childhood. We of course read about the prewar opposition to getting involved in Europe’s problems. Charles Lindbergh was a notable personality. So far as I know, once the US was involved and the problem was moot they either shut up or came around to support the national effort.

Same here. I was not enthusiastic about NATO etc., but in the face of the Russian invasion have to rally to support this country.

The Ukrainian Catholic church in Western Ukraine is the outcome of a compromise in Polish times centuries back. It is not part of the Roman Catholic church, but combines elements of both Catholic and Orthodox. Married priests, for one thing. Church architecture is more Western.

Linguistic identity need not line up with ethnic identity, nor either with religious affiliation. Only in far West Ukraine, in places like Lviv (Lwów), are Catholics the majority. Nationally, around 10% of Ukrainians are affiliated with the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC), in communion with the Pope in Rome.

About 2/3 of Ukrainians are Orthodox Christians. There are now two main Orthodox Church bodies operating in Ukraine. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) is subordinate to the Russian Orthodox Church (de facto subordinate to Vladimir Putin’s Russian State).

After fall of USSR, two independent national churches emerged: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kyiv Patriarchate (UOC-KP) and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC). In 2018, a unification synod was held wherein the UOC-KP, UAOC, and a sizable faction of UOC-MP merged into one national Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU). The tomos of autocephaly was granted to the OCU by Bartholomew, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople; the OCU is under the primacy of the Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine.

In response, Moscow Patriarch Kirill not only excommunicated Kyiv but also unilaterally broke off communion with Constantinople and further declared schism with any Orthodox Church body that recognized the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, which thus far includes the Greek Orthodox Church patriarchates in Athens, Cyprus, and Alexandria.

Even before Putin’s 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the share of Ukrainians in the UOC-MP subdivision of ROC subject to Moscow was already a shrinking minority of 10-12%, while a growing majority of Ukrainians identified with Ukrainian Orthodoxy independent of Moscow.

In Putin’s Russian Federation and Russian-occupied territories like Crimea, all Christians are persecuted who don’t belong to the corrupt Russian Orthodox state-church of the Moscow Patriarchate—whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant Christians. In Donbas of East Ukraine, pro-Russia separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk ‘People’s Republics’ threaten, kidnap, beat Ukrainian Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant Christian faithful and clergy.

Across Putin’s Russia, Evangelical Protestant missionaries and evangelists have been arrested. As far east as Vladivostok, the Russian government has shut down “unauthorizedâ€� Christian meetups even in casual settings, while closing down Baptist churches; Russia seizes and destroys Bibles; Russia fines and imprisons pastors. Even up in Karelia territories Russia stole from Finland in the 1940s, Putin’s thugs have seized historic Lutheran parish churches and shut down services and Sunday school meetings in Vyborg.

Corrupt Russian courts side with Putin; there is neither freedom of religion nor rule of law in Russian Federation. And that will be the reality for all Ukraine too if Putin gets his way.

I find Ukrainian (and Belarusian) pretty similar to Russian, and where they differ it is very often because both have large numbers of loanwords from Polish. Malyar is almost certainly from Polish malarz which is itself from German Maler. I remember travelling on a trolleybus in Kiev in 1984 and hearing the automatic message “Shanovne passazhyry” (“Esteemed passengers”). The first word is clearly from Polish szanowny.
Years ago I got into an Internet argument with a Ukrainian nationalist who objected to the idea that Ukrainian got words from Polish. No, the culturally superior Ukrainians gave these words to the Poles, said he. Colour me unconvinced since much of Ukraine was long under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the desire to escape its embrace caused many Ukrainians to move into Russia’s orbit. Indeed, Nikolay Gogol is a good example of a Russified Ukrainian whose writings tend to be contemptuous of Poles and Jews, although he may have had some Polish ancestry himself.

I shouldn’t speak up on behalf of the author, but I noticed during my working years in Canada, that Ukrainians were a particularly cohesive group, interested in promoting their culture and language. For example, I knew of many Ukrainian families whose children attended Ukrainian school on Saturday mornings, at St. Demetrius Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Toronto. What a fine group of people they were. Serious, prudent, successful in business and welcoming to others.

This is a long-winded way of saying that my experience suggests Ukrainians were Orthodox, not Catholic, in those days from long ago, in Toronto and Oshawa. I suspect this is true generally, but others with better knowledge will probably clarify this point.

“In the 1940s the United States had had a singleness of purpose in defeating the Axis and the Japanese. Its 1950s unity in confronting the threats of Soviet Russia and Communist China was similar. The very few dissenters were definitely on the fringe.”

Does the last sentence only apply to the immediately preceding sentence, or to the first sentence as well? I’m under the impression that there was far more resistance to US involvement in WW2 than the prevailing narrative admits, numerous and and prominent enough to call into question the characterization of “very few” and “on the fringe.”

Your so called household is made up of Galician idiots, that have been force fed propaganda for years.

The Jews that use the Galicians as thugs for New Khazaria (((where you now live with a woman that wouldn’t have touched you in a million years had it not been for her abject poverty and your pocket full of western currency))), pretty much decided that using ‘Ukrainians’ to kill Russians, like they did for 8 years straight (and what, pray tell, did you do to combat THAT genocide. hmm?).

The disgust that ‘Your Fellow Ukrainians’ have for you, geriatric sex fiend chasing Eastern women, is extreme. Only the Jews that do the same (((but not to marry, but to shiksafy, making them Jews by Injection, for a weekend or a year))) are more disgusting.

Go to Hell, you old sick fool. When you get there, try humping Vicky “F the EU, and maybe Graham’ Nudelman.

Hope your wife can read this. If not I can give her a Russian translation, I’m sure that would be easier for her than Ukrainian, in any case.

Yes, Peter Brimelow asked

Language, as the author argues, certainly forms the basis of social unity (the aggregation of diverse people into one common social entity – family, clan, tribe, nationality, state…).

However, there are other cultural factors that provide the basis of social unity; religion, socio-economic class, geographic area …. Thus for example, I would be interested in the writers report on what churches the people of the respective language groups attended; specifically Catholic or Orthodox.

I suspect that the Ukrainian speakers were mostly Catholic and the Russian speakers Orthodox. Emphasis on suspect . I’m not suggesting that is the case. Rather positing a hypothesis.

Similarly, I wonder about the socio-economic class of the respective language groupings.

Further, the writer suggests that language is prior (so to speak) to nationalism. However, it is my impression that Irish nationalism in recent decades gave rise to the resurrection of Gallic language. Rather than Gallic giving rise to Irish nationalism. Again emphasis on my impression; just wondering.

A personal example of national identity giving rise to language:

When “The Godfather” movie and book came out in the 1970s, it had an enormous cultural impact on southern-Italian Americans. For example, in a recent interview, a former member of the Mafia commented on how the movie affected the behavior of gangsters. “Their public persona changed; conforming to the movie images.”

Also, I observed a strong movement, in my generation of grandchildren of the pre-1920s southern-Italian immigrants, to learn Italian which had fallen out of use in second generation children of the immigrants.

After the “Godfather”, friends from my 1950s predominantly southern Italian high school were taking Italian language courses, buying language disks and using Italian words and expressions that I never heard in high school.

However, the force of the “Godfather” was not enough to create a nationalist movement and the language again fell into disuse. Now, in their 70s-80s, they have reverted to the high school idiom without laced in Italian words.

In sum, this is an excellent article and window into the cultural anthropology of language and nationalism.

As always thanks to Ron Unz for unceasingly providing intellectually stimulating material.

A lot of reports from Ukrainians and Russians suggest that a not insignificant percentage of the “Russian” troops consist of Central Asian immigrants pressed into service, Dagestanis, Chechens, poorly trained conscripts and criminals who get their prison sentence forgiven if they sign up. That would certainly explain the lack of discipline and criminal behavior around Kyiv if true. The civilized occupying troops in places like Kherson are supposedly divisions from Crimea – who would naturally feel more kindly towards Russian speaking Ukrainians than Dagestanis might.

I was as socially active as I could be from 2007 to 2009, making friends and looking for a wife in this new city.
…

Teaching English was another useful device for meeting women.

Now a family man, Mr. Seibert was profiled last Father’s Day by the departed Linh Dinh in “Escape from America: Ukraine� (June 20, 2021).

Any idea why his column first appeared at VDare?