Cui bono?

Indeed.

revealed that the bullets found in the bodies of both government police and anti-government demonstrators had apparently come from the same guns. The most plausible explanation of this strange detail is that the snipers responsible were professionals brought in to cause the massive bloodshed necessary to overthrow the government, which is exactly what soon followed.

It’s not a mystery. They were, they did, and they did not bother to remain silent. More so after a few of them happened to “die mysteriously�, apparently.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%2B%22maidan%22+%2B%22confession%22+%2B%22sniper%22&ia=web

Ron I don’t know whether you are still promoting, if not definitively supporting, various anti Ukrainian conspiracy theories about MH17 – which I have long accorded the Occamish explanation of unfortunate mistake – but this may give you food for thought

Alex Kokcharov (@AlexKokcharov) tweeted at 8:45 pm on Sun, July 17, 2022:
On this day in 2014 the #Russia|n TV triumphantly reported about the downing of an aircraft over the occupied areas in #Donetsk region, east #Ukraine. Back at the time they assumed it was a Ukrainian military cargo aircraft and not #MH17:

https://t.co/cpABUuHv6T
(https://twitter.com/AlexKokcharov/status/1548619933633970177?t=KNconflMhRlbb0ptuty-eQ&s=03)

Long time coming but I witnessed the jets that hit MH17. They were very visible. I live SW of Hrabove and the jets flew directly over my head.

New witness interviews pointing to the fighter jet take-down of MH 17:

Video Link

^

Article on the new investigative report (preceding comment’s video) .. Malaysia specifically rejects the JIT conclusion blaming Russia, up to and including the prime minister objecting to the process and result:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/07/breaking-mh17-evidence-tampering-exposed-cover-ups-hiding-records-witness-misreporting-fbi-seizures/

^

Eyewitnesses describe a military jet in proximity to MH17

Video Link

^

Not everyone is taking the new bait:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/06/flores-strelkov-the-traitor-accused-of-mh17-downing-frns-not-taking-the-bait/

^

The allegation that Malaysia has been denied access to the [sic – which? The cockpit voice recorder would have provided the most important evidence] sounds odd

“”For some reasons, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened. We don’t know why we are excluded from the examination” Mahathir Mohammed is quoted as saying.

Why hasn’t that part of a plane belonging to the Malaysian government been sued for in a Dutch or maybe English court?

I’m not sure whether your early enthusiasm for a false flag explanation has remained strong after some superficially strong cases have been made for yea and nay. (I note that further complications include a case, superficially persuasive, that MH17 was shot down by two Ukrainan fighters, offset by a case that it was shot down by a Ukrainian BUK and film of rejoicing locals or rebels arriving on the crash scene horrified to find that it was an airliner). Now we have this

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/russians-to-be-charged-over-downing-of-mh17/news-story/16eb3e58b78d3e1cd06a4c0a4495546d

Murder charges against four Russians in the Netherlands will presumably get nowhere since the Russians won’t be extradited and they are unlikely to take any part in a trial in absentia unless of course they can still produce evidence so far undisclosed that kills or raises great doubt about the prosecution case.

My first thought was that the Russians, if innocent, might call the Dutch government’s bluff by saying “by all means prosecute, but do it in Russia where we will appoint senior prosecutors and instruct them to take advantage of your assistance in evaluating and presenting the evidence and arguments”. But there is a better solution – at least from a Russian point of view.

They should encourage the bringing of a civil action in Russia against the alleged murderers. Somewhat disingenuously they might argue that it should more than satisfy the Dutch, at least as a first step because the standard of proof would be lower but all the evidence could come out. Indeed discovery and interrogatories could perhaps lead to much more of the truth coming out.

Let’s turn theory into practical action. You could select some suitable potential plaintiffs (even the Dutch would nearly all speak English so language needn’t be a problem) and offer to run a modest fund raising amongst UR readers to provide say $10 or 15,000 towards finding a suitable law firm to advise and represent them; not paying the costs of the case obviously. The first very small expenditures might be expenses for academic lawyers asked to define parameters for the search.

Of course I merely presume that Russian law would allow for some such claim for damages. At least it is not going to less effective than the Dutch criminal prosecution at bringing out the truth.

Malaysia prime minister states the MH17 investigation had been intended to frame Russia from its inception:

https://sputniknews.com/world/201905311075503240-malaysia-russia-mh17-investigation/

Ukrainian intel officer defects to Russia, points the finger squarely at Kiev as responsible for downing MH17

http://tass.com/world/1050324

^

Concerning recent information out of Russia on the Buk missile scenario, a short assessment:

https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2019/01/26/kid-gloves-1/

It would appear Russia is pre-positioning (allowing opportunity) for the eventuality of the Western democracies to ‘save face’ and assign ‘incompetence’ to the Ukrainian military in the downing of MH17 (my take) as opposed to the almost certainty it was the SU-25 brought the civilian liner down –

Ridiculous to give Karl Rove this much credit.. there has been lying, scheming, back stabbing, misinformation, etc.. since the beginning of time. Study your history books.

So you think that Simon Gunson character who elaborately purported to prove that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian controlled BUK missile is a paid troll? That fits with the amount of work that must have gone into his presentation. But in whose interest is it to refute all the theories – including yours I think – that MH17 was not brought down by a ground launched missile but some other way? Could it be a Russian decision that the facts matter less than what the relevant public has come to believe – which is of course that a ground based missile caused the crash? It might follow that “Simon Gunson” is at least intended to muddy the waters. That is to say, from a Russian point of view, it could make sense to have people believe that if it was a BUK missile it might have been a Ukrainian owned one. Is something like that your line of thinking?

Anyway, have you considered the Gunson version? Are there any killer points against it?

Yes, I do want to learn the truth. That’s exactly why I don’t talk to trolls paid by the countries promoting blatant lies. Case closed.

Oops! See #323 intended for you.

As you seem to be an honest seeker after truth I draw your attention to what, for me, is the current state of play on MH17.

My best guess has been that a BUK missile brought down MH17 as reported by the Dutch Safety Board and that it was an accident caused by errors in handling the Russian supplied missile launcher in rebel territory.

Your last word seemed to be that it wasn’t a BUK missile at all, although you didn’t answer my last response on your point about contrails.

Now I have posted a Quora link to an elaborate exposition of a case that it was a BUK missile fired by the Ukrainians that brought the plane down. Although you might like the conclusion it directly contradicts your forcefully made case – even highlighted by Ron – and I should be interested in your consideration of it.

See #321 and #322

Ronald Thomas West may now have contributed something relevant to the matter I have invited comment on too but I haven’t checked.

I have just seen your comment and it strikes me as running up against the valiant internet warriors who contend that it was a BUK missile fired by the Ukrainians that brought down MH17. When I click on Reply I find what appears in the three pars below so I may have posted it already. Anyway it is appropriate that your attention be brought to it.

And now for something completely new at least to me. But I don’t know who the author Simon Gunson is and he seems to have published some odd views on MH370 to the effect that Boring 777s had a mysterious sudden decompression problem.

Who is responsible for the MH17 incident: Ukraine or Russia? by Simon Gunson https://www.quora.com/Who-is-responsible-for-the-MH17-incident-Ukraine-or-Russia/answer/Simon-Gunson?ch=99&share=14206e82&srid=u1wAF

If he is to be believed Ukraine must have fired the BUK missile but, elaborated as his technical exposition is…. It could all be rubbish from a troll or Russian plant. He apparently speaks Russian as he writes of a translation he made.

And now for something completely new at least to me. But I don’t know who the author Simon Gunson is and he seems to have published some odd views on MH370 to the effect that Boring 777s had a mysterious sudden decompression problem.

Who is responsible for the MH17 incident: Ukraine or Russia? by Simon Gunson https://www.quora.com/Who-is-responsible-for-the-MH17-incident-Ukraine-or-Russia/answer/Simon-Gunson?ch=99&share=14206e82&srid=u1wAF

If he is to be believed Ukraine must have fired the BUK missile but, elaborated as his technical exposition is…. It could all be rubbish from a troll or Russian plant. He apparently speaks Russian as he writes of a translation he made.

To blame it on the Russians, I presume? You see, you are not that dumb after all.

On the latest sparring between JIT & Moscow (MH17)

https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2018/09/18/russian-propagandas-rank-fail-on-mh17/

^

I stumbled across a link promoting the Ukrainian Buk and emailed the editors these following (perhaps provocative) remarks likely interesting to some readers of the Unz article (above.)

Hello Oriental Review

I had stumbled across this article on MH 17 at…

https://orientalreview.org/2017/09/04/new-twist-investigation-flight-mh17/

…and thought to give a friendly caution over the material at Strategic Culture generally, and this (your) related article specifically. I’ll propose to you the Ukrainian BuK line has been kept open by Russian propagandists as a future ‘face-saving’ device for putting forward in case of ‘if/when’ a detente can be reached with the West concerning Ukraine. There is a world of difference between assigning blame to rogue/drunk/incompetent (you choose) Ukrainian military and assigning blame to a Western backed intelligence services special operation involving a combat jet to bring down MH 17. The former could be swallowed by Western Europe in case of new (detoxified) arrangement with Russia on the matter of Ukraine, the latter, likely not. Certainly this raises an ethical dilemma; can a falsehood serve the interests of moving forward? Or, moving forward, should there be a day come where truth does, in actuality, prevail? Can there be benevolent lies issuing from the world of spies? Perhaps an issue for future study and editorial by your organization.

With kind regards

Ron West

http://ronaldthomaswest.com

“The history of the great events of this world are scarcely more than a history of crime” -Voltaire

–

Watch this video of a BUK 2 launching. Note the obvious vapor trail and extreme noise level.

Video Link

That trail would be visible for at least 20 minutes. Regardless of ice crystals at 25,000 ft. It’s hard to believe that a BUK could have been launched without being seen and heard by hundreds of people.

This article on his American Pravda series by Ron is one of his best and actually suggests answers to several questions on MH17:

https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-the-destruction-of-twa-flight-800/

1. It makes a good case for TWA800 having been brought down by accident by a US Navy missile;

2. It makes an equally good case that the US government covered up the mistake with the cooperation of American MSM rather than admit the facts, apologise and offer compensation just as Russia has failed to admit that the MH17 was brought down by one of its BUK missiles. Please note that Russia had much more reason for its denial, but America still denied a mere accident with no question of engagement of its armed forces in foreign territory;

So what have you got left apart from a vague belief that no one saw the contrail or smoke trail of the BUK missile. Actually which was it that wasn’t seen but should have been? Looking up “contrail” I saw that it depends on ice crystals forming above 25,000 feet. How des that reflect your expert testimony?

1. Length of investigation. So what? Also not the longest if you count one’s still open. (I think TWA800 is one such).

Actually I realise you are totally confused and talking through your hat.  The Dutch Safety Board reported in October 2015

https://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-dutch-safety-board-report-what-do-we-know-now-20151014-gk8ekv.html

2. Don’t try and teach grandmother’s to suck eggs. If you ever decide to study first year law don’t think you’ll still be thought smart if you try something so ignorant. (a) we aren’t talking about evidence in a court case any more than a scientist is when he says “these fragments didn’t come from an exploded meteor but probably from….” (b) if we were talking of trial evidence the evidence of holes in the reconstructed cockpit and fuselage would only be objected to by counsel wanting to annoy the judge or delay the completion of the trial. Admissibilty matters would have been raised in advance and, if there really was a point because some bills of lading were missing no doubt a metallurgist or Boeing engineer could link the metal panels to the MK17. (c) Are you claiming some specific knowledge? E.g. do you have some reason to say that the pathologist who removed a bowtie shaped piece of steel from the captain’s body actually didn’t but found it elsewhere and handed it to the Dutch Safety Board investigators?

3. I don’t know what you are saying. Are you aware of when the investigators were allowed on to the six crash sites or under what conditions?  With what authority do you say they found surprisingly few BUK sourced metal objects? With what authority (except too much listening to Russian disinformation) do you question the expert opinion of the Dutch investigators?  Yes, it is clear you really have gone off half cocked without distinguishing between the tevhnical and criminal investigations [see 1. above]

Well now I see you concede that the local rebels expected to find the remains of a Ukrainian plane. So I really don’t understand why you are disputing that they knew a BUK missile launcher had been fired and that it accidentally brought down MH17. 

Your expertise apparently extends to saying that a BUK missile would certainly on that day have left a smoke a highly visible smoke trail AND that *no one saw it*.  Well I can’t compete with your claim to expertise there but, particularly as to the failure of anyone to see it excuse me for asking sceptically who has been asked about it that might have been expected to see it and speak the truth to whomever inquired?

You keep avoiding issues raised in items 1 through 6. No surprises there: there are no answers that can possibly fit the official narrative, for the simple reason that the narrative is a lie.

Non-disclosure agreement: you chose purely legal route. Again, no surprises there: that’s the route any half-decent lawyer chooses when s/he wants to obfusticate something.

Last question: name any civil airplane crash investigation where the debris were recovered that: a) lasted more than 4 years; b) involved any non-disclosure agreements.

I know full well that the discussion with a true believer or a paid troll is pointless, so I stop here.

Taking you ladt (weak) point first, I do not regard globalresearch as a reputable source but, in any case the it is only someone without knowledge or experience of inter government dealings who would find a non disclosure agreement in any way surprising. It would be usual and particularly where crimunal charges might follow. You are probably unaware that the Australian (and UK and other Commonwealth countries’) approach to pre-trial publicity is entirely different to what the First Amendment allows in the US. I don’t know what the relevant law is in Ukraine, Belgium or Netherlands but there could well have been concern about any disclosure getting into American hands and then spreading dangerously out of control and out of context online.

Moreover you still don’t seem to have grasped that the investigative team you are concerned with (if your writing of a “commission” is consistent with you having any definite idea about it) is not what I was suggesting had produced a credible technical verdict, namely the Dutch Safety Board. Snd you don’t seem to want to inform yourself. I had already pointed out that Malaysia didn’t join the JIT until November 2014, and yet you note as though it was significant that it didn’t sign the non disclosure agreement in August 2014!!!

Well, first, let me enumerate points that I made and you studiously avoided addressing:
1. The length of this “investigation�: it is going on for more than 4 years, a record length in civil aviation cases where plane debris were recovered.
2. Chain of custody of the evidence: not a single piece of “evidence� in this investigation would be admissible in a court of law, as the provenance of it cannot be conclusively established.
3. Buk generates many thousands of pieces, many hundreds to thousands of which hit the targeted airplane, hundreds get lodged in the bodies of passengers, if the plane has passengers. The “investigators� produced surprisingly few (and even those are of uncertain provenance, see point 2).
4. Buk missile produces a huge smoke trail, visible for dozens of miles. This trail, depending on winds, remains visible for 20 min to 2 hours. Nobody saw it. Why?
5. Satellite pictures Kerry promised on day one did not materialize for more than 4 years. Why?
6. Russia vetoed UN resolution. The resolution called for a tribunal. There is a huge difference between the court of law, where there are rules and one needs to present real evidence, and a tribunal, which is easily converted into a political circus. Say the Hague “tribunal�, having no evidence against Milosevich, held him in custody for years, until he died of a disease that could have been treated, but wasn’t. Then the point of presenting evidence became moot. Mission accomplished.

Now, to the things you mentioned. Donbass freedom fighters were shooting (not Buk, though) at Ukrainian military transport plane in the area, and they expected to find debris of that plane. Hence their surprise. I wouldn’t be surprised if that Ukrainian plane was in the area as part of the provocation. After seeing footage of Ukrainian nationalists deliberately killing people who jumped from the burning Trade Union building in Odessa in 2014, and singing their horrible anthem in the process, I don’t think there is a moral low they won’t stoop to.

Things you did not mention. Belgium, the Netherlands, Australia, and Ukraine signed a non-disclosure agreement (https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-causes-of-the-mh17-crash-are-classified-ukraine-netherlands-australia-belgium-signed-a-non-disclosure-agreement/5397194). Interestingly, Malaysia was not a party to it. If any of these parties wanted to uncover the truth, why would they need a non-disclosure agreement?

Malaysia “booted out” of an investigation (scil. for some reason that exonerates Russian supported rebels)?

Try this

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-report-2015-how-malaysia-hindered-the-investigation-into-the-plane-crash/news-story/c76eac269934ed74e198d4d8a76f5f02

Thanks for a civil reply. A pity that it is only your unsupported assertions.

You say Malaysia was “booted out” [how?] of the “investigation”. I wonder if you have forgotten that there were two investigations and neither of them has been called a “commission” from which it follows that I doubt your claim that the “commission” stated that it lacked the qualifications for the investigation – unless in some irrelevant way out of context. Anyway I have searched hard for Malaysia being “booted out”. To start with there was Ukraine’s delegation of the technical inquiry to the Dutch Safety Board. Then there was the criminal investigation of the Joint Investigative Team (JIT) which Malaysia joined in November 2014. My searches disclose that in July 2015 Malaysia moved a resolution about MH17 in the UN which Russia vetoed. But maybe you know some detail that I haven’t found and that is probative. If so, please tell us.

As for your round hole that according to you no one bothered to explain but, according to you, could have been made by an SU cannon round…. well that was not the Russian version which was a faked photo supposed to show a fighter firing a missile at the plane…

Now I have searched for MH17 citizen journalists debunk to recover the link and this is it

https://amp.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

Was it that fake – photoshopped – Russian satellite photograph that you are complaining the BBC took down!?

Why do you say the holes in the plane were not made by the shrapnel from a BUK missile when the Dutch Safety Board gives its reasons for concluding that they were? What exactly is your problem with accepting that it was a nasty mistake by whoever was manning a BUK missile launcher? Anyway how could your one round hole make any difference to anything?

The stuff above was inserted after I wrote the rest of this.

Unfortunately my reply to you with links has disappeared mysteriously while I have been going back to find and copy other links. I was hoping for a review by you of what the Feb 2018 Air Crash investigation film showed, and had, after searches for “MH17 Air Crash Investigation” posted a 19 minute YouTube version which covered the same ground well. Here it is

Video Link

Meantime let me recommend that you try, as others have, editing the long Wikipedia article which leaves me with little doubt, subject to credible correction, that MH17 was downed by a BUK missile by mistake. (Have you anything to say about the video obtained by News Corp ,- or News Ltd – that showed early arrivals at the crash site expressing surprise that a civil aircraft had been brought down, or other alleged recordings which are effectively admissions by the rebels?)

Here is a comment I have found on the Air Crash Investigation which I post mostly for its information on how those programs are made.

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-episode-of-air-crash-investigations-online/

I am not going to risk losing this so will post and continue when I have found the series of photographs of the Dutch Safety Board’s public display and explanation of the reconstructed cockpit and fuselage. The holes looked consistent with the steel cubes and bowtie shaped pieces that would come from a BUK and were found in the pilots and the plane.

Ron, if you can relax enough to watch a TV program I think even your critical faculties might allow the Canadian “Mayday” – elsewhere Air Accident Investigation – program on the civil investigation of the MH17 disaster to make you 95+% satisfied that the only serious question left is who fired the BUK missile. The finding of butterfly shaped steel chunks in the pilot and the cockpit seems to sew up the question of what kind of missile did the job.

Why the missile was fired seems equally clear if it was, as appears to be the case, from the rebel held area. It has to have been a blunder. If from government held territory then there really would be something to get excited about.

Wrong question. Who thinks Russians targeted MH17 deliberately? No sane person. It has always looked like a blunder with Russia only having to choose between apologising for a blunder by some out of control former military people and covering up and diverting blame.

A BUK missile would have been flying at Mach 3 and closing faster so impossible for pilots to do anything. If a plane was approaching so as to be able to target the pilots it would have been not only slower but much larger and being watched when it released a missile. Thus it is very unlikely that the Cockpit Voice Recorder , which picked up the explosion of the missile, didn’t pick up even an expression of shock or surprise immediately before that.

What do you make of the evidence in the civil investigation that the plane was brought down by a BUK missile which detonated above and to the left of the cockpit? Apparently butterfly shaped pieces of steel were found early in the body of the captain and much later, when the investigators were able to obtain parts of the cockpit and fuselage, embedded in those. These were uniquely from BUK missiles it seems.

Who fired it is another issue.

That 2014 Daily Mail report has been well and truly superseded if one accepts the accuracy of an Air Accidents Investigation program which displays no obvious political bias. There was a minor deviation around a storm and the pilot, from memory, was flying at 32,000 feet and wanted to fly at 33,000 so they could travel faster but was denied this – unsurprisingly, as over 100 civil airline flights flew in Ukraine’s dangerous air space on that one day.

And now you are posing (as over the dinner table over the fourth after dinner port) as an authority on Dutch politics. My impression is very much to the contrary and would be interested in your detailing your reasons for saying the Dutch serve US overlords first or at all. The Dutch cut there losses in Indonesia decades ago.

If you know what you are talking about you might have put it on fellow blowhard JR to justify his “technical UN mandated…. investigation”. The Dutch air safety organisation was requested by Ukraine to take over the investigation for obvious respectable reasons. That investigation found – and most would accept demonstrated – that the plane was brought down by a BUK missile detonating when above and to the left of the cockpit. The question of who fired the missile was not determined as part of that investigation.
BTW your point about Ukraine not providing records of air traffic control communications with the pilots, even if true, is not of much significance in the light of the record of all such communications being available on the Cockpit Voice Recorder even before the investigators could visit the crash sites.

“Needless to say they are all venal”. Needless to say even intelligent people can sound off about something they don’t know about with a lot of windy BS. I can say with assurance that the relevant politicians in Australia, especially on the MH17 issue are not venal. Tony Abbott who did a bit of chestbeating on MH17 must be one of the least bright of Australian Rhodes Scholars but is notoriously straitlaced morally (since he might have – but didn’t – sired a premarital son after he stopped studying for the priesthood). Malcolm Turnbull is too rich to be bought. More detail if needed.

I only came across your post after deciding to return to this thread after choosing to see on the Air Accident Investigation series the program on the downing of MH17. It scrupulously avoided the question of who fired the BUK missile but probably leaves open to conspiracy theorists only the possibility that a Ukrainian bomber manoeuvred so that MH17 got hit by the missile from the rebel area. More likely a flying pig brought it down.

Sputnik interviews Dutch dissident personalities/journalist on the latest MH-17 disinformation put forward in the propaganda war on Russia…

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201805271064858681-jit-report-evidence-bias-timing/

…timed to smear Russia during the World Cup (recalling similar efforts for the Sochi Olympics)

I am not sure I want to go wading into the myriad pools of 9/11 conspiracies. And I think there is a lot of tender choice cuts in this article.

I am of the view that there is something amiss in US ethos and practices at many levels.

But I am going to push back slightly to the concept that we cannot or do not have an ability in “creating reality”. I think we can create and shape the reality we so desire. However, it is rarely unlimited. While we may be in God’s image, I am of the belief that we are not Gods and our ability to create reality most of the time, has boundaries.

We can agree about that. Sadly, as usual, truth is the first casualty of war.

Sorry to disappoint again, but I live in the States since 1991 and have no access to Russian propaganda. But I do know the US propaganda about Ukraine, and I know the reality from many friends and relatives living there, from Lvov and Kiev to Kharkov region and Lugansk. That’s how I know that the US propaganda about Ukraine is 90% blatant lies and 10% truth twisted beyond recognition. Compared to it, Soviet propaganda was a paragon of truthfulness.

Solzhenitsyn was a liar and very likely a NKVD/MGB (later KGB) informer. If you want to know the truth, read Varlam Shalamov (e.g., Kolyma tales), and many others.

Sorry to disappoint, but I do speak Russian and Ukrainian, the latter better than most self-proclaimed Ukrainian “patriots�. What’s more, I grew up in Lugansk, and in 2015 had to organize evacuation of my 90-year old mother from Lugansk to Russia. Now she lives with us in TN. She was reluctant to move, but agreed to that after Ukrainian shell exploded near the multi-apartment building she lived in and broke all windows in one room. Ukrainian army continuously shelled the area where she lived, which had ~40 multi-apartment buildings, two schools (one of which I attended; Ukrainian shell hit it; luckily, only one of the entrances was damaged), three kindergartens, and nothing else. That’s one of the reasons I always call a spade a spade: current Ukrainian regime is Nazi in everything they do and aspire to.
I have lots of classmates in Lugansk and I have the accounts of those who crossed the border with Russia. Their stories match each other and my mother’s story, and I have no reason to distrust any of them. I don’t know about Saratov: my info is from the border crossing into Rostov region, Izvarino, which many refugees used, some enduring hours of waiting before crossing, with little kids and elderly parents.

I forgot. We had this conversation before. For someone with access to Russian language media you are not very skilled at interpreting the propaganda. Perhaps you don’t want to.

I saw that part of that exodus when it arrived in Saratov where I have a business. My PA, single, under 30 complained that the young Ukrainian men were in Russia. Most left when told that they would have to pick potatoes in rural areas to receive any support.

The refugees from Lugansk who made it as far as Cardiff were mostly families, without their fathers including the teenager whose school exchange made them eligible for a visa but those were a few hundred and largely the well off.

And what are your qualifications? How much Russian do you speak?

Part of the missiles payload was designed to slice through wings.

Solsjenytsyn explains the why excellently in his book on jews in Russia since 1800.
Jewry just had to blame themselves, harsh trading practices.
I have the book, trying to find out if there exists a translation of his second book, jews in the USSR since 1917…

The books you refer to are volumes 1 and 2 of Two Hundred Years Together, in his discussion of which, Adeyinka Makinde said this:

The book was published in Russia amid fears that it would electrify anti-Semitic sentiment and present an opportunity to calumniate the Jews. It became a bestseller there, but in the more than a decade which has elapsed since then no English language translation materialised. The reluctance of the publishing industry to put into print a substantive work created by the winner of a Nobel Prize is a development that warrants close scrutiny.

Solzhenitsyn: The Price of Blacklisting a Nobel Laureate’s Book
By Adeyinka Makinde
(published online as a free, 13-page, pdf download, 23 August 2013)

I believe it is still the case that no official complete English translation has been produced by “the publishing industry”. However, Makinde does say that

The unavailability of Solzhenitsyn’s work in the English language has meant that the limited translations available have been facilitated by White nationalists who, largely disinterested [sic] in the first volume, have unsurprisingly focussed on the second where they are keen to give emphasis to those passages which can be projected in a manner to fit in with their views.

In February 2017 The Occidental Observer site last year publicised one such “limited translation”:

There is a project to publish (long-overdue) translations of Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 200 Years Together. So far, they have posted Chapters 2, 3, 6, and 7, with more on the way. The website is: https://twohundredyearstogether.wordpress.com/ The translation reads very smoothly and seems quite professional.

… you are right as long as you can explain the falling plane video. It is the cell phone video – the weak resolution one. Never the less the falling plane has the main fuseladge and the right wing intact while the left wing, the tail and the cocpit blown away.

the 2 out of 3 main construction points blown away by one rocket?
the 2 out of 3 blown by a rocket barerly strong enough to savadge one soft element on the other side of the plane?

Comparing to MH17 the Glivitz Radio hoax looks competent. 🙂

Boring theme. A few days after the shoot-down the reason was clear, crystal clear. A rocket, because pictures can talk if you can read them. Just some knowledge of physics needed. Nobody here?

Most likely nobody understands. So lets use Occam’s razor, the easiest answer contains the most possibility.

In this way the why is clear as the reason was. An accident caused by an systematic error in the weapon.

Simply by the fact that this radar bearing rocket developed in the 70ths of last century
comes to the world of 2014.

Full with frequencies in GigaHz bands from mobile phones, flooded with the radar waves from the plane itself (one or several systems in the front radome) and maybe the microwave in the business class pantry too.

Are you all too stupid to see this simple facts and the conclusions? Even if you know that a similar rocket shoots down a freight liner over the Mediterranean during a military exercise (which is near impossibility and the Ukrainians paid compensation for). I cant believe that you all are dumb as dry bread. But i have reason because i posted this in 2014 too. at this website.

Most people pick a side like they pick a sports team that appeals to them and stay with that side regardless of what the evidence reveals or does not reveal. It’s just a game of tribal bullshitting and posturing on the internet.

With no risk to life or limb and nothing important at stake it’s easy to confidently construct “truths� based on cherry picked “facts� that line up with ones geopolitical sympathies.

With some skin in the game I confidently predict that would change.

Of course.

Whenever I start taking all this “Internet conversations” serious I re-read a quote I picked from a post of some lady on some other forum:

One thing I’ve learned through my many, many years of having my blog and trying to figure out what’s happening for myself- That only a very few are interested in truth as can be discerned to the best of one’s ability- The rest just want, like high school, to follow the ‘in crowd’ and belong.

I’d just add a couple of psychopaths, several sociopaths and, also, handful of “paid guys”.

Apart from “paid guys” and a few persons who are trying to figure out things, the rest simply cater for their psychological, mostly emotional, needs.
Almost all of that is, simply, an “online therapy”.

Nothing wrong there, IMHO.
That’s simply how we are hard wired.
Just take a look at social media. That’s us.
This place is “populated” by “us”.

What is good, though, is that free speech is, still, allowed here and every now and then there is a very good comment.
Such comments are worth skipping/skimming/wading through the rest.
And, I really commend the owner for that “ignore” button. Helps a lot.

Good post. I wonder how many people who claim to “know� exactly what happened in instances such as the Syrian gas attacks and the airliner downing over Ukraine, where there are conflicting stories and propaganda from two or more players creating elaborate tales for the faithful to “debunk�, would bet their life against a Magic Truth Machine. So if the Truth Machine validates a theory as correct they win a nice prize, but if the theory is wrong they pay with their life.

My guess is not many would do so. Most people pick a side like they pick a sports team that appeals to them and stay with that side regardless of what the evidence reveals or does not reveal. It’s just a game of tribal bullshitting and posturing on the internet.

With no risk to life or limb and nothing important at stake it’s easy to confidently construct “truths� based on cherry picked “facts� that line up with ones geopolitical sympathies.

With some skin in the game I confidently predict that would change 🙂

Did anybody tell you that lying requires more brains than telling the truth? You are unqualified. I know who was there from people who actually saw that exodus: the refugees were ~80% women, children, and older people. Your supervisor won’t pay you for something as clumsy as this.

The Donbass refugees going to Russia were mostly young men. In Saratov, 2000 out of 3500, for example.

As good ods fashion principles in investigating any crime.
FOLLOW THE MONEY
CUI PODESTA(BONO)?
Enough said as more mendacious accusations from pax-amaericana and all their vassals come storming through these events that have occured since Yugoslavia to this very day.
HAVE YOU NO SHAME OR IS HUMANITY DOOMED ?

Thanks! I never read most of these books. Will be in illuminating reading.
Meteor crater is an interesting place, but it’s a bit of a side trip if you go from Phoenix to the Grand Canyon. We went there on a separate trip, via I-10. Never been to Walnut Creek. Too late now: I moved to TN.
I was to Everglades with my daughter. My most vivid memory is the profusion of mosquitoes. Anti-mosquito spray works for all of 5 min, and then they are back. On the way back I bought a very appropriate bumper sticker, with red cross, mosquito, and words “I gave blood at Everglades�. I have better memories of the Biscayne reef in Florida (also a national park), although Hawaiian coral reefs and those on St. John island in the US Virgin Islands are much more impressive. I liked St. John best because we were there during the hurricane season in September, so there were very few people. In essence, you had every bay to yourself. The temperature of the water allows you to stay in indefinitely.
What I like about Tony Hillerman (in addition to the fact that he is entertaining) is that his perspective is not quite white. I think white man’s perspective on Indians distorts things. They have a different view of life, not clouded by the pursuit of money, which leads our elites to the destruction of the world right now. If Trump keeps current suicidal course in Syria, all these great places and most humans can be destroyed in the death throws of the Empire. Looks like boundless greed is the most destructive and dehumanizing force on Earth.

Quite pleased too see that more than 80% of the places you name I visited.
You do not mention Walnut Creek, or Meteor Crater.
From Meteor Crater I took an dirt road, still quite well remember the rocks I managed to drive over without uninsured damage with the RV, great admiration for automatic gearboxes with fluid coupling.
I made the tourist round SF LA Las Vegas twice, but along different roads.
Indian culture, quite a number of books, but of the SW
Edward H. Spicer, ‘Cycles of Conquest, The Impact of Spain, Mexico, and the United States of the Southwest’, 1533 – 1960′, Tucson, 1962, 1970
Las Vegas, the best meal I ever had.
Not cheap.
Grand Canyon, on foot until Plateau Point, when I was again in our RV my idea was that I’d ruined my knees forever.
Death Valley, going down there on a dirt road with an automatic gearbox and drum brakes, no great fun, engine braking just at 30MPH.
Near Mammoth Lakes so much snow that we had to buy chains.
Indian literature:
â¦� Paul Kane, ‘Wanderings of an artist among the Indians of America’, 1859, 1996, New York
� Walker D. Wyman, ‘Nothing but prairie and Sky, Life on the Dakota Range in the Early Days’, 1954, University of Oklahoma
� Margaret Irvin Carrington, ‘Absaraka, Home of the Crows, Experience of an officers wife on the Plains’, 1868, 1983 University of Nebraska
� William Bartram, ed. Mark Van Doren, `Travels of William Bartram, Trough North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West Florida, Cherokee, Muscogulges, Chataws’, 1791, 1955, New York
� Hugh L. Willoughby, ‘Across the Everglades, A Canoe Journey of Exploration’, 1898, 1992, Port Salerno, Florida
� Marjory Stoneman Douglas, ‘The Everglades: River of Grass’, 1947, 1995, Marietta, GA
� J.W.Powell, ‘The exploration of the Colorado river and its canyons’, 1895, 1961, New York
� Francis Parkman, ‘The Oregon trail’, New York, 2002, Boston, 1883, 1847
Stan Hoig, “The Sand Creek Massacre’, Oklahoma, 1961, 1982

Only downtown SF looks European (even Chinatown), if you go further afield or come to Oakland, it’s “anywhere USA� or worse.
Personally, I like Las Vegas. It’s mindless entertainment that was not done on the cheap. If you know math and don’t gamble, it is also a bargain. I was there last time a few years ago and noticed that it is becoming more upscale. The fountain with classical music and light show in front of Bellagio, as well as their restaurant on the edge of that fountain, or the restaurant in Cosmopolitan with a view of that fountain, are pretty impressive (not cheap, though).
I never was in Badlands, unfortunately. There are many stunning places in the West, including national parks, such as Bryce Canyon, Zion, Sequoia (worth visiting twice, in summer and in winter – it looks very different), Grand Canyon (you want to come from the South), Saguaro, Redwood, Yosemite, Arches, Canyonlands, Mesa Verde, etc. South Dakota is also worth seeing; in fact, Mount Rushmore is the least interesting thing there, but the vistas are very impressive and surprisingly beautiful. If you have time and inclination, you can drive from Phoenix to Las Vegas via Hoover Dam – the drive is as long as from Madrid to Warsaw, but the views are stunning. The absence of people and towns improves them. Just make sure you have full tank of gas North of I-10 and a gallon of water per person. Or you can drive from Phoenix to Grand Canyon via Petrified Forest and Painted Desert: everything North of Flagstaff looks like the Moon or Mars.
In the East, I think only Mammoth Cave is worth visiting (both sides, so you want two tours that you need to book ahead to squeeze them into one day). You can also stay overnight in the motel inside the park and see deer coming close to your balcony in the evening.
As to locals, you cannot expect high school dropouts you encounter at gas stations, fast food eateries, and near-highway motels to know history (or anything else, for that matter). They usually do the only thing they know how: serve you in those undemanding capacities.
If you like Indian culture, you might enjoy reading Hillerman – all his stories are in AZ and NM, and although the stories themselves are rather simplistic, he conveys the spirit of the Indian country, Navaho and Pueblo Indians, pretty well. Gives you a different perspective on white culture.

Anything white over fifty years old got a historical marker, when I visited the USA for the first time in 1978, the tourist trip, LA, SF, las Vegas.
If anything astonished me it was Las Vegas.
On the one hand why people want to go there, on the other the organisation, 24/7 ‘entertainment’ going on.
SF looks European, LA is a disaster.
Miami, when one speaks english one is discriminated, my wife speaks spanish reasonably, when she switched to that language she was welcome.
Not far from Hyatville, a later trip, Seattle to Minneapolis, 30.000 years continued habitation was unearthed.
When I visited the place there was hardly anything to see, a girl I asked said ‘yeah, the petroglyphs’.
I saw them, and got some information in the visitor centre, a hut of maybe three by four metres.
Yet there were Indian civilisations galore
Walnut Creek is such a place.
USA madness, Hearst Castle, and the Spanish monastery in Miami.
Paul Kane, ‘Wanderings of an artist among the Indians of America’, 1859, 1996, New York
Ronald Wright, ‘Stolen Continents, Conquest and Resistance in the Americas’, 1992, London
But indeed the USA scenery is unbelievable when one comes from a country more and more resembling LA.
But I think the Badlands impressed me most, huge areas with nothing.
I was lucky in by accident entering at the back door, from the east.

US NE looks funny to Europeans: a building constructed 100 years ago is considered old, whereas in countries that actually have history anything built in the last 300 years is considered new. One of the best thing about Americans is their sense of humor. In AZ you can buy a sign saying “On this spot 100 years ago nothing happened�. It describes most of the US.
The nature is great in the West. I lived 6 years in AZ, we traveled every other weekend, always saw something new, and did not even exhaust all possibilities. The East is boring by comparison: from Atlantic to Chicago everything is the same, except near the coast the concentration of people is many times greater. Small towns in most of the Eastern US are best described “anywhere USA�. Appalachians in the East are considered mountains, whereas they are hills at best. But there is a lot more science in the East, whereas in the West only California has something to be proud of in this regard. Seattle in the only place in the WA state that has decent research.
Modern US crossed out its pre-Columbian history, but you can tell where there is history by comparing art. In the East someone like Warhol is considered an artist, which shows well how barren the field actually is. In the West there is true art that clearly grew out of Indian traditions. Art is a good illustration of the old British joke: “there is nothing easier than creating a perfect English lawn – just sow the grass and mow it for 300 yearsâ€�. Yet most of Europe accepted the US as its overlord. Looks like cultures also have their old age dementia.

How about Flight 370? Far more interesting and
controversial.

Why on earth would Russia gain anything from shooting down the plane? Western sanctions assault on the Russian Federation had been ongoing for some time before this incident. The US is willing to kill its own people, ala 9/11. The deep state is malicious and dangerous and it is the alt internet that makes our use of same to glean information that we would never to see in the MSM. The US has been trying to provoke Russia into a war and Putin hasn’t taken the bait. The senseless idiots in the west don’t seem to realise that Russian nuclear weaponry is supperia to our own and life on earth would surely end; except for the wealthy elites who run our country who would be safe in our D.U.M.B’s

Not quite, I long ago drove from Seattle to Minneapolis, blue highways.
What kind of people the farmers were was, I did not ask them, obvious to me.
French farmers, like one sees French farms in France, Dutch or German, the same.
Orange City, the Netherlands of the fifties, as Jonathan Raban describes in his book on how he went down the Missisippi, teaching evolution in Orange City, out of a job.
The USA does have cultural differences, such as Chinatown in San Francisco.
But I agree, in general, a hamburger culture.
I must add that I never visited the NE, what interested me in the USA was the scenery, and USA history, history that most in the USA deny that it existed before white man entered.
Yet USA history goes back at least 30.000 years.

Indeed:
Eric Zemmour, ‘Le Suicide Francais’, 2014 Paris

Americans are a nationality in a political, but not in an ethnic sense. I always appreciated cultural variety of Europe. I liked the difference between France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Czech republic, Switzerland, UK, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, etc. It used to be that in Europe you drive a couple of hours and enter a different country with distinct language, culture, architecture, cuisine, etc (whereas in the US you drive six hours on a highway and see exactly the same red barn). So, I agree with you 100%. In fact, I am sad that because of EU bureaucracy Europe is committing suicide.

I think you are purposely conflating things that are not the same. Tried and true arguing technique: claim that your opponent said something nonsensical, then show how nonsensical it is.
I am against open borders, I strongly believe that each country should keep its borders closed and should not fall for the ruse of “refugees�. I also believe that many EU countries are committing suicide by admitting lots of people with incompatible cultures. Besides, genuine refugees are usually women, children, and elderly (say, like Donbass refugees going to Russia). When the “refugees� are mostly able-bodied young males of draft age, they are not refugees, they are an invasion army. You can thank your EU bureaucracy for the surrender of Europe, which I used to like as a great vacation destination and will miss.
My point is that people of all colors, religions (or lack thereof), and national origins can be smart or dumb, hard-working or lazy, law abiding or prone to breaking the law, etc. There is no correlation between any of these things with their color, nationality, or religion. What’s more, smart people change their ways to fit the prevailing culture of their country of residence. BTW, the US population (with the exception of Native Americans who survived genocide) is composed of a variety of immigrants. It used to be the strength of the country, before elites took over and imposed “political correctness�.

I am just against any kind of nationalism

Ah, so you won’t mind if your neighborhood is settled by an influx of mosque-building, polygamous Muslims opposed to girls’ education, or Africans practitioners of Voudoo, or Sikhs for a Sikh homeland. All good people no doubt, but more concerned with taking advantage of high American wages, cheap housing, reliable electrical supplies, etc. than in assimilating to American culture.

You are, in other words, for open borders, even if that means American wages and the American standard of living converging with those of the Third World while America’s social cohesion disintegrates, as tens and even hundreds of millions flood in across the borders in order to take advantage of America’s prosperity created through the sweat and toil of the native born or their ancestors.

No idea what nationality you have, but if any nation is proud of itself, it is the USA.
But nationalism has nothing to do with judging, or being proud.
I’m a Dutch nationalist, I valued the country that existed, that my forefathers created.
It no longer exists.
Yet, half the year w’re in France, and respect the French.
They’re different, but so what ?
I respect them too for resisting the attempts to destroy the French culture.
In any country I visited I respected the people and the culture, it is theirs, not mine.

I am not complaining, as antisemitism does not affect me in any way. I am just against any kind of nationalism, as my experience shows that judging people by their national or racial origin is simply stupid. Usually people who have no personal achievements to be proud of (simply put, losers) take pride in their nationality, religion, race, and similar things they acquired without personal effort.

” Anti-Jewish pogroms were a long-standing tradition in much of what now is Ukraine. ”

Never heard of pro jewish pogroms.
But the problem with you, and people like you, that they like complaining, but apparently never asked themselves why.
Yet, Solsjenytsyn explains the why excellently in his book on jews in Russia since 1800.
Jewry just had to blame themselves, harsh trading practices.

I have the book, trying to find out if there exists a translation of his second book, jews in the USSR since 1917, to my surprise the cheapest book on sale, the first book, is some $ 70.
This $ 70 is the german translation.
Prices like this often indicate that books are bought up, to prevent that they are read.
Cannot remember what I paid long ago, but I hardly ever pay more than € 20 for a book.

Please do read
‘From prejudice to destruction’, Jacob Katz, 1980, Cambridge MA
This jewish Israeli historian explains German antisemitism.
He’s the exception, all the others just ‘explain’ antisemitism by antisemitism.

” The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. ”

What do you think the present strikes in France are for ?
To prevent that uncontrolled capitalism is introduced in France.
The French strikers know quite well that just the nation state can protect them.
They fear privatization, and they’re right.

I thought we established a few years back that the plane was taken down by Howard Stern:

Video Link

An interesting point.

Now, there is another.
Starting from:

….payment is due to the capitalist owner …

what happens if the payment is not paid?
We know what happens. The state enforces the law which demands the payment.
Key word “enforces”.

So, you are, maybe, correct, up to a point, but missing that “enforcement” element. For me, the key element.

There is a mechnism to enforce that payment.
Let’s follow it.
International laws, international courts, then economic pressures…all nine yards.

And when all that fails what happens: Regime change. The…”power projection mechanism” of West steps in. Cutting to the chase, US military.

At the moment the enforcer of global capitalism is US military, when you think about it.
Yes, I know it’s oversimplification but it is the core of all this.

So, those multinationals do need an enforcer.

True, ideally they’ll want some multiracial/multicultural force, as any preferable workforce today.
The problem is…motivating people to kill, let alone die for something, demands a bit more than a paycheck and medical.
And, at the moment, only the “blood and soil” provides that type of motivation.

Even the modern empire’s military is based on US flag and US patriotism. That’s sort of (tragicomic) funny because the biggest losers in the current game are the troopers in that military, but let’s stick to the topic here.
Second best, Russian, Russian flag and patriotism.
Third, China…….
Etc.

So…things are a bit more complicated there than simply “corporations rule the world”.
Just a little bit more.

I think the question of what is best for the world is best left to the 8 million that live in it; humanity should decide on its government every ten years.
The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. The nation state system is a middle man between the global wealth of a very few and the slave poverty of the mass of 8 billion.. The problem with capitalism is that it is such a powerful system of economics nothing can block its path.
Uncontrolled, capitalism is like the game of monopoly: in that game, payment is due to the capitalist owner at most landing spots on the playing board; unless the party landing on such spot already owns the spot landed on with each turn at play. In the end, the game of monopoly wipes out everyone; it transfers everyone’s wealth to but one player, the winner. Everyone else is a broke worthless loser.
Without internationally enforced rules that prevent powerful, large mega monopolies corporations (the public is unable to vote to change the corporate nature or to restructure by voting those Board of Directors who mange the mega-corporation) to reach the size of nation states and to amass the much more capital to burn than most nation states, nothing is going to change. Bottom up insistence that nations write laws to control the mega-capitalist powered, monopoly secured corporations go unheeded because no politicians or group of politicians is strong enough to write laws that the nations can enforce, hence mega corporations are virtually operating in a completely lawless environment { meaning mega corporations can do whatever they want }. There is no nation powerful enough to reel in many very large corporations; those certain few corporations own and enjoy the security from competition that monopolies guarantee in most of the extremely profitable markets in the world.
No one, including Russia and China can expect to survive trying to compete against the masses of capital, the earning capacities and the wealth building power of monopolies. Monopolies rule the nation state law makers , not the other way around. If I were you, I would add to your list of possible MH-17 bashers several global corporations; the one’s I have in mind, cannot be completely identified to a single nation in the world because they are so large they own the lawmakers, most of the assets and all of the earning power in many of the nations.
One the 9/11 clouds is the possible corporate involvement.

Well, if we are to dive into history, here are a few tidbits.
Anti-Jewish pogroms were a long-standing tradition in much of what now is Ukraine.
The first widespread case that came into stories and even literature (Shevchenko’s poem) was Haidamacks rebellion in 1648 (Google it, you can find a lot of info). Another well-known case was mass murder of Jews by Petlura’s regime in 1918-21. It was so atrocious, that when a Jew Shalom-Shmuel Schwarzbard murdered Petlura in Paris, the French court acquitted him in 1927, even though he confessed to the murder, citing as his reason that Petlura goons murdered his whole family and countless other Jews.
All this was well before Bolsheviks took over Ukraine (what was Ukraine back then; they added a lot to it, including Donbass, some Southern parts, and Western Ukraine, which was among their crimes, in my view).
BTW, In Volhynia during German occupation Ukrainian nationalists murdered Poles and mixed Polish-Ukrainian families, including women and children of all ages. Murdered brutally. You can see the pictures of the heinous crimes of Bandera followers all over the Internet. Here are a few examples (weak-hearted should not watch this)

Uhm…..ahm…..that

� In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.�

was related to the people who shot down THIS plane (Ukraine).

So, my point was/is:
A properly trained crew, in a peacetime, on US Aegis type cruiser, made a mistake.
Again, a hastily organized crew of a separatist movement, in a middle of heavy conventional war, made a mistake.

That’s for actual shooting down.

The circus from then on, including prevalent attitude here, is another matter.

In order to see how it began read
Voline ( Vsevolod Mikhailovitsch Eichenbaum), ‘The unknown revolution (Kronstadt 1921 Ukraine 1918-21)’, New York 1955
Bolsjewist jews driving the Ukrainians from their farms.
For an eye witness account of these people trying to sell a few left possessions at railway stations, in order to postpone death by hunger
Morgan Philips Price (edited Tania Rose), ‘Dispatches from the Weimar Republic, Versailles and German Fascism’, London 1999
Price travelled by train through the Ukraine.

Thanks, I did not know that. Now it all makes perfect sense. Croatian Ustaša were devout allies of Hitler in WWII, just like Western Ukrainian nationalists. Ustaše militia is well known for its atrocities that made even German Nazis blush (https://dirkdeklein.net/2016/06/16/ustase-the-fascists-that-made-the-nazis-look-like-boyscouts/). Again, exactly like Ukrainian OUN and its armed wing Ukrainian Insurgent Army. No wonder this personage supports the descendants and admirers of those “Ukrainians� who committed Volhynia massacre and weren’t even smart enough to hide their crimes, so that today Internet is full of pictures of Polish women and children brutally murdered by those monsters. Even Wiki has a well-illustrated page about Volhynia massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia).
Ustaše are exactly like Bandera followers, the worst scum on the face of the Earth.

This probably again not for peter, but for everybody including me.

I deeply resent that Nazis turned what could have been a decent country into a shithole.

Dont’t agree with “could have been a decent country ” Ukrain never been and never will be a decent one. Just because it’s made artificially from a piece of shit by Austrian and Germand hands.
But peter is a Croat AFAIK which also made by Germans from shitty serbs, so Uki’s Nazis are relaives to him.

” In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.”

There was no war whatsoever.
The USA crew deluded themselves into thinking there was one, by just looking at their screens.
They were so nervous that just at the 23rd or so effort they could feed the correct code into the missile for firing.
Why the USA ship was inside Iran’s territorial waters has never been explained.
The occasional firing with machine guns at tankers from Iranian rubber boats did no harm whatsoever, just a nuisance.

” Do you believe that Saddam’s soldiers were tossing babies out of incubators? ”

This propaganda tale has been debunked.
About the bullet holes in MH17, a bit more complicated.
A BUK does not have to hit, in the vicinity of the target it shoots a lot of projectiles, shrapnel, resembling bullets, on the target.
The interesting point here is that the BUK did what a fighter pilot would have done, kill the crew, in order to prevent that a mayday with specifics could be sent.

This website has some of the best comments on the Internet. I learn more from the comments than from the articles.

Sorry to disappoint again, but my mission is my day job. It is very interesting and satisfying. Very successful both scientifically and career-vise. But my job makes me very intolerant: I can’t stand BS from colleagues, grad students, and propaganda alike.
As to Ukraine, I was born and grew up there, and I speak better Ukrainian than most self-proclaimed “patriots�. I deeply resent that Nazis turned what could have been a decent country into a shithole.

Scientific mind for sure at works here. You know, reading carefully, checking/rechecking facts etc.

In that first link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
there is
7.1 2001 Siberia Airlines Flight 1812

That’s fine.
I recognize a guy on a mission.

Good luck.

If you are such a fan of Wiki, here is the Wiki page about the first civilian aircraft shot down by Ukraine, back in 2001, when Ukrainian oligarchs controlled the presidency, but before an oligarch actually became President:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
In that case Ukrainian authorities also denied their crime for years.
As the joke goes, Ukraine is the only country on Earth that shot down two civilian aircraft and not a single military one.

Yeah……

In meantime, for the minority here (mature and/or reading a bit of history, say, 5 %):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
especially:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
US Navy Cruiser, Aegis type, during peace, made a mistake.
In this case a hastily organized crew in a middle of heavy conventional war apparently could not.

That’s for the shooting.
Now, the “fallout” from the shooting is another matter altogether and something definitely highly politicized against Russia.

The only which interests me here is the inability of interested public to get the truth. Even in this era of instant communication and access to all sorts of data and computing power, when it really matters, public is helpless.

Addressing that could, maybe, be somewhat productive here.

And those who spout they know how about this: would you sign a death sentence against the crew that did it? You sign it with full confidence and they’ll get executed 2 hours later. If you can that’s another interesting thing around here.

Whoever that personage is, a lot of honest people read these comments. So, even if arguing with that person makes as much sense as having a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost, it still makes sense to present arguments for the sake of other readers.

There are three possibilities:
1 rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber, and hit a passenger plane
2 a Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the expectation that the rebels would not fire
3 a western plane deliberately shot down the plane, possibly a stealth plane.

no, there is only one possibility, and that is that a Ukrainian jet shot down MH17, because no other scenario can account for the OBVIOUS bullet holes to the cockpit of the plane.

The western interest at the time was clear, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions, our export to Russia.
The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.

good point,

only it’s worth pointing out that these zio-interests – to destroy Iraq and Libya and now Syria

are all evils that in no way benefit the actual people or institutions of the West, hardly.

Rather it’s a catastrophe for the people of the West, that these evils are being perpetrated in their name, by the zio-scum who hold our governments hostage.

So let’s just remember, when you say ‘the west’, what you’re referring to is the zio-west, which is the enemy of the actual West.

It doesn’t serve the West to be at odds with Russia. Just the opposite. It’s doesn’t serve the people of the West to be at war with Muslim nations. Just the opposite.

So the same forces in the world that have destroyed Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan and Donbas and tried to destroy Syria utterly before Putin heroically came to its aid, are the same forces trying to destroy the West as well, with mass-immigration and everything else ((they)) can think of to sow hatred and strife. ((Their)) calling cards.

Rutte told Asscher that the Russian had to be blamed.

no doubt

The asserted BUK is, they say, not to be seen,

a BUK missle leaves a distinctive trail that would have been visible for a long time on that clear day.

no such trail was witnessed or photographed. There was no BUK. MH17 was shot down with air to air 30 caliber machine gun fire from a Sukhoi Su-25, flown by the Ukrainian air force. They may have also used air to air anti-aircraft missiles. But there’s no doubt about the machine gun bullet holes, which are obvious.

Those who followed the murder of Bin Laden in Abottabad know that the USA used a helicopter there invisible for Pakistani military radar.

the account of the killing (and secret burial with zero proof) of Osama is patently absurd.

How in God’s name anyone would believe the zio-western press and government liars who lie to us every time they talk, about something like the killing of Osama, with not even a photo, other than the fake ones they got caught putting out, is beyond me.

Do you also believe that Putin killed that spy in England recently?

Do you believe that Assad used chemical weapons against his own people?

Do you believe that Saddam’s soldiers were tossing babies out of incubators?

do you believe that Saddam had WMD?

Do you believe that Osama did 9/11?

do you believe that ‘they hate us for our freedom’?

Sorry, but do you really can’t see who you are arguing with? This is payable or sincere, but certainly a player of anti-Russia team, whatever the truth is he’ll stick to that line.
He did not give a chance to doubt it.

There are three possibilities:
1 rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber, and hit a passenger plane
2 a Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the expectation that the rebels would not fire
3 a western plane deliberately shot down the plane, possibly a stealth plane.
That the plane was ordered to fly lower by Kiev air control might support the last two possibilities.