Thanks for the reply, Wiz. My uncle’s father farmed outside of Marengo, Illinois – about 60 miles west of Chicago. He could not pay his expenses just by farming and that was the reason why he worked as a custodian at a local school. He was a very frugal person, not someone to sit in a bar and waste his time & money.

My uncle used to take me out to his dad’s farm, which I enjoyed very much. I remember on one visit, my uncle’s dad had just had a small open-type corn crib built. He was very proud of that. He and his wife were just the nicest people and always treated me very well.

Take care…

I’ve been into health and nutrition for 40 years. My health status requires no medication of any sort.

But, the medical system here would love to change that.

Worth a watch:

Video Link

I have enjoyed your back and forth with SBaker, with Alden chipping in but I don’t think it is pretty dopey to say

How could you be living on a farm, growing livestock & food and at the same time hold positions as a chemist and bio-scientist?

I happen to own a farm, now only about 345 acres, which is a good investment that I don’t happen to live on, though I easily could live there without making my other business and professional activities impracticable.

“It’s nice to know that basically all the other fast food items besides soda and milkshakes don’t have much sugar. ” Well, yes and no. In typical fast food while not technically sugar, you get plenty of junk calories from white flour (the bread), potatoes (french fries), corn. The analysis isn’t much different for most other dining, unless one goes to special effort to reduce the carbs.

Hybrids are not GMOs just like a mixed breed dog isn’t. Repeating something that is demonstrably false simply shows that you have no argument. My yields are higher than the regional average, and my costs are far lower. There is nothing “technophobic” about choosing the optimal strategy to obtain maximum profit. You are just a moron who thinks Bayer is telling farmers what to do in order to benefit farmers. They tell farmers what to do in order to benefit themselves.

Hey Simon, hybrids and GMOs are both genetically modified. Gene insertions are common practice, doofus–it has been going on for 50 years. GMO yields far exceed your old seedcorn, and GMO corn is less likely to by contaminated by aflatoxin–one of the most potent carcinogens on the planet. Fact is, GMOs are safer for consumers and livestock.

Your technophobia will leave you in the dustbin just as it has countless others.

Nothing in your idiotic, rambling reply has anything to do with GMOs. Hybrids are simply breeding two varieties. Breeding a lab and a GSD makes a hybrid dog. GMOs have genes from completely different species spliced into them. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. And I do not buy corn seed, I save my own seed. I bought the original seed 23 years ago from an older gentleman a couple of miles up the road.

Here’s a short article you may find interesting about the body’s ability to metabolize fructose.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-153772011

Honey? Didn’t God promise a land flowing with milk and honey? Not bringing religion directly into the debate, only incidentally, to show that honey has been a long time dietary component, one apparently highly prized. I would think honey in moderation would be fine, although I’m open to solid evidence to the contrary.

I’m brand spanking new here but I’m impressed. Although it evidences a certain laziness on my my part, I am wondering, without checking, if you have looked at the seed oil controversy raging at the moment. I believe Gary Taubes has weighed in on their dangers, as well as sugar. The time frame of their rise in consumption matches pretty closely the rise in sugar consumption. Could this be a devastating one-two punch to our health?

A book by Dan Buettner, The Blue Zones Solution, has a chapter on efforts to improve the diet in North Karelia. Men in North Karelia had thirty times as many heart attacks as men in Crete. Artemis Simopoulos wrote a book on the Cretan diet, The Omega Diet. My copy has a quote on the front cover from the nutrition writer Jean Carper saying the diet of Crete is the one most apt to make Americans live longer. 25 years later, Carper is still alive at the age of 92.

Kevin Vigilante wrote a book, Low Fat Lies, in which he compared the Cretan diet to the Japanese diet. Vigilante says the Seven Countries study showed that the Cretan diet produced lower death rates than the Japanese diet. Japan currently has the highest life expectancy in the world but Vigilante says Japan edges out Crete there because it is a wealthy country and Crete is poorer. Being wealthy helps lead to better health outcomes in areas like infant mortality rate.

It’s very sinister how much toxic sugar has been added to food since 1970. It’s nice to know that basically all the other fast food items besides soda and milkshakes don’t have much sugar.

Ron, two more books to consider for your nutritional education journey.

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price (long)
https://www.westonaprice.org/physical

A first person account of a dentist looking at the effects of the introduction of western diets in the 3rd world during the 1930s. The comparison photos of siblings raised on different diets are particularly convincing IMHO.

As an aside, it is interesting how often dentists are involved in non-mainstream nutrition ideas.

The Salt Solution by Richard Moore and others. (short)

Especially recommended is Chapter 10 Technical Information for Doctors and Researchers. Richard Moore has written a number of books on this topic (e.g The K Factor, The High Blood Pressure Solution). That chapter is why I recommend this one.
There are extensive notes for all chapters at the end of the book (126 for ch 10 alone).

A primary position of the book is that high blood pressure is related to the dietary balance of sodium and potassium rather than sodium alone.

Finnish researchers have productized a NaCl substitute. Here is an early paper from 30 years ago. There is much related work if you look for the papers of the primary author Heikki Karppanen.
Replacement of salt by a novel potassium- and magnesium-enriched salt alternative improves the cardiovascular effects of ramipril
https://bpspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1476-5381.1994.tb14871.x

novel sodium-reduced, potassium-, magnesium-, and l-lysine-enriched salt alternative

North Karelia in Finland introduced something like that (including in school meals) in the 1970s in an effort to reduce cardiovascular disease. I am having trouble finding a good account of that, but this should get the point across.
https://solena.ua/en/news/kak-finny-povysili-prodolzhitelnost-zhizni-zameniv-sol-v-pitanii/

This 2006 paper looks at the results.
Sodium intake and hypertension
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033062006000831

There’s no one in the fields because the planting is finished and the crops aren’t ready to be picked. By machinery, not the trash of Mexico. Where you do see idle criminal men is in the towns idling about coming and going from the criminal court and jails.

You never grew a vegetable in your life. You have no idea of modern farm machinery. Probably think wheat is cut by long lines if serfs with hand scythes.

The mexicans are not perfect, but they definitely work circles around you union bots.

Alden, tell us about your farm experience. It appears you have way too much time on your hands with over 27,000 comments. Are you still on strike?

As far as “being afraid of new technologies� is concerned, yes, I AM afraid of the new technologies that are being proposed by the World Economic Forum, its Jew leader, Klaus Schwab, and his Jew mouthpiece, Yuval Harari. They have publicly stated that with the new technology they WILL be able to “act like God.� THEIR OWN WORDS.

My opinion of Schwab, is he should be executed as an international criminal. We are in full agreement.

Quote:

“The difference is: GMOs are done in the lab using new technology. Every new technology is not playing God. God gave us the brain to advance civilization using new technologies of every sort.�

Your explanation of the origin of GMOS is exactly what I said that it was.

Quote:

“In some ways GMOs are actually far safer than non-gmos.�

How do YOU know this? Because someone told you so? As I said before, neither GMOs nor 5G technology has ever been tested on humans, as to their potential long-term toxicity on humans. “They� are just saying that these technologies are safe.

I know this as a DVM and board-certification in toxicology. Humans have not been used as test subjects for about 8 decades. Test subjects include lab animal such as mice and rats, then sometimes pigs which are quite similar to humans, then non-human primates that are even more similar to humans. You ignored the reasons stated for GMOs being safer than non-GMOs.

Quote:

“Are you familiar with the natural substance called botulinum toxin?�

If you are referring to Botox® that is constantly advertised on TV commercials, then yes, I am “familiar with it.

You seem to think that I “was born yesterday,� but I have been “around the block� a few times. Your condescending manner of writing does not impress me in the least.

A few ounces of botulinum toxin could wipe out the entire population, and it is a natural product–my point is, mother nature is not benign. My apology for the condescending comments. I find it very irritating when someone pretends to be an expert when they are not. I admitted right off, I was not an expert electrician–I know the principles because I had a college physics course in electromagnetics several decades ago. Finally, my first computer was a portable Texas Instruments using floppy discs and DOS. I had to carry it on plane a few times and the damn thing weighed at least 50 lbs.

No one can be a certified licensed professional electrician unless they are trained tested and licensed. It’s not a skill that can be picked up from a handyman magazine. Or acquired at DeVry trade school. And it’s not installing a residential light fixture either.

No one is jealous of union bots, just because you say so–many states have right to work laws doofus. They don’t wish to be involved in the extortion racket, and people have a right to work even if they don’t submit to forced submission to the union mafia.

Recall when Reagan fired the PATCO slugs that attempted to paralyze the entire country. Reagan fired these racketeers in 48 hours and replaced them in a week. Thus began the decline of the Union extortion racket. Oddly, it took a very short time to replace them with willing workers that did not have to go thru training at your DeVry trade school.

Reagan was the greatest president of the 20th century, not for this minor issue, but for busting the USSR without firing a shot.

Quote:

“Why do you use a computer if you live in fear of new technologies?”

I don’t live “in fear of technology” per se. I live in fear of what evil humans can do with technology.

Regarding why I use a computer – when they first came out for home use, I didn’t want anything to do with them. People were buying them to balance checkbooks, wen I used a $5 calculator for doing that. As an amateur radio (ham radio) operator, I discovered how they could be used for great benefit in my hobby. I first became acquainted with computers before Windows® came into use. The programs that I used were DOS (Disk Operating System) based and I learned a lot of DOS commands.

My first job as an industrial electrician was at a factory where one of my duties was troubleshooting and repairing production machine tools that used relay & switch logic (they had another department that maintained the numerical control machine tools). I worked there for 19 consecutive years and was SHOWN THE DOOR, along with many others that were laid off at the same time.

My next meaningful job was at a factory that manufactured truck frames for General Motors. They had 3 automated assembly lines; two were completely automated and the third was partially automated. They used Allen-Bradley® PLCs (programmable logic controllers). PLCs are small industrial computers that are used to control processes. When I first started there, I had never worked with PLCs. I received a “trial by fire” and soon was very competent in using the PLC programming to troubleshoot the processes and to effect the repairs. By the way, the PLC software in use was DOS-based.

After that factory had closed up due to GM giving its new contract for its next generation of frames to another company, I got another job as an electrician at a different factory. This factory also used Allen-Bradley® PLCs, but the software that they used was Windows®-based. The DOS-based software was actually much easier to use.

As far as “being afraid of new technologies” is concerned, yes, I AM afraid of the new technologies that are being proposed by the World Economic Forum, its Jew leader, Klaus Schwab, and his Jew mouthpiece, Yuval Harari. They have publicly stated that with the new technology they WILL be able to “act like God.” THEIR OWN WORDS.

Quote:

“The difference is: GMOs are done in the lab using new technology. Every new technology is not playing God. God gave us the brain to advance civilization using new technologies of every sort.”

Your explanation of the origin of GMOS is exactly what I said that it was.

Quote:

“In some ways GMOs are actually far safer than non-gmos.”

How do YOU know this? Because someone told you so? As I said before, neither GMOs nor 5G technology has ever been tested on humans, as to their potential long-term toxicity on humans. “They” are just saying that these technologies are safe.

Quote:

“Are you familiar with the natural substance called botulinum toxin?”

If you are referring to Botox® that is constantly advertised on TV commercials, then yes, I am “familiar with it.

You seem to think that I “was born yesterday,” but I have been “around the block” a few times. Your condescending manner of writing does not impress me in the least.

Thank you.

No one can be a certified licensed professional electrician unless they are trained tested and licensed. It’s not a skill that can be picked up from a handyman magazine. Or acquired at DeVry trade school. And it’s not installing a residential light fixture either.

Another man of unz who knows nothing about a topic displaying his ignorance.

Again, jealousy of Union workers.

There’s no one in the fields because the planting is finished and the crops aren’t ready to be picked. By machinery, not the trash of Mexico. Where you do see idle criminal men is in the towns idling about coming and going from the criminal court and jails.

You never grew a vegetable in your life. You have no idea of modern farm machinery. Probably think wheat is cut by long lines if serfs with hand scythes.

I am no biologist or agronomist; I’m a retired industrial electrician, having worked in that capacity for 40+ years.

Thank you, I recognized this early on. I am not an electrician but use a lot of it.

Why do you use a computer if you live in fear of new technologies?

What I understand of the GMO vs. hybrid situation is that hybrids are what they used to do – cut and graft, cross-pollinate, etc. All NATURAL PROCESSES. GMO is the “art� of modifying the plants’ genes & chromosomes – in effect, playing God with the growing of crops for human consumption. Like 5G technology, there has been absolutely NO long-term testing of GMO crops as to whether or not they are harmful to humans.

The difference is: GMOs are done in the lab using new technology. Every new technology is not playing God. God gave us the brain to advance civilization using new technologies of every sort. There were many that feared the wheel when it was invented–the same with cars, electricity, ………………………………

In some ways GMOs are actually far safer than non-gmos. Insect invasion and mycotoxin contamination of grain is far less prevalent in GMOs. Aflatoxin is one of the most potent carcinogenic agents on the planet and is closely regulated by the FDA–thanks to GMOs the presence of aflatoxin and other mycotoxins is far less prevalent. Mycotoxins are all natural substances. Other “natural” poisons are found in 100s of poisonous plants, amphibians, snakes, microbes, and on and on. Are you familiar with the natural substance called botulinum toxin?

NSF,

I am no biologist or agronomist; I’m a retired industrial electrician, having worked in that capacity for 40+ years.

What I understand of the GMO vs. hybrid situation is that hybrids are what they used to do – cut and graft, cross-pollinate, etc. All NATURAL PROCESSES. GMO is the “art” of modifying the plants’ genes & chromosomes – in effect, playing God with the growing of crops for human consumption. Like 5G technology, there has been absolutely NO long-term testing of GMO crops as to whether or not they are harmful to humans.

I cannot prove it, but I believe practically ALL foods now sold are adulterated. As for myself, I try as much as possible to avoid GMO foods. I have called food manufacturers, inquiring as to whether or not their foods are GMO foods. Hopefully, I have been told the truth by companies that I have contacted. I have found that sometimes there is NO choice between GMO foods and non-GMO foods, at least in the grocery stores where I shop.

Thank you.

hey brad, what i see on this thread, is an attempt to obfuscate the difference between hybrids and g.m.o.s. now you are on the right path in differentiating between the two. what i have not seen pointed out, is that g.m.o.s are designed to be drenched in glyphosate and other dangerous poisons, now known to cause numerous medical issues in humans. they tell us to wash our fruits and vegetables, meaning run water over them. how is this supposed to remove petrochemicals, any more than rinsing your shirt would remove an oil stain?

this is the same type of obfuscation, used to tell us that mrna based genetically modified injections are “vaccines”. same evil people behind both agendas, this is why it is so important that the russian federation liberate as much of the former ukraine as possible. monsanto and cargill, must never get their hands on the breadbasket of the world. g.m.o.s eventually kill the micro biology in the soil, the russians understand this and they will lead the world in organic farming.

No, I am not a California “union bot” and I usually do NOT vote Democratic. I am of the opinion that the Republicans are almost as corrupt and worthless as the Democrats. Your comments are completely ludicrous.

You want to talk about EXTORTION – how about the Jewish food tax that we pay on almost everything that one purchases in grocery stores?

There is no such thing as an “open market” here in the USA. ALL “markets” are rigged and laws & regulations enacted to favor banks, the large US corporations and the US & foreign multi-national corporations.

No, I am not a farmer. But obviously you know very little about NATURAL hybrids vs. genetically modified crops, where scientists alter a plant’s genes – in effect, playing God. And you’re completely correct – basically there is NO CHOICE in consuming non-GMO foods. There’s your “free market” for you.

Brad, you’re a CAlifornia union bot, and you vote democrat. There is no point in addressing someone that thinks extortion is acceptable. It is a dead issue. Unions, BLM, and diversity, equity, and inclusion, mean the death of meritocracy. You simply could not compete in the open market.

First of all, no they have not. There are no GMO varieties of most of those species on the market.
Second, the fact that GMO corn exists, does not mean I grow GMO corn. Non-GMO corn did not magically vanish. How are you this stupid and yet still able to dress yourself?

Corn is the biggest agricultural success story of the Americas, from its beginning as a wild grass 7000 or more years ago in Mexico to become one of three dominant food and feed crops of the modern world. Its emergence as the grain crop with yields that surpass that of all others coincides with the creation of hybrid corn. And when was that union boy? Credit for the first professional interest in hybrid corn generally goes to Professor James Beal, a botanist at the Michigan Agricultural College (now Michigan State University) who, in 1879, crossed two open-pollinated varieties for the sole purpose of increasing yield. Beal got the inspiration from Professor Asa Gray, one of his former professors at Harvard University.

In 1896, Professor Cyril Hopkins at the University of Illinois began ‘ear-to-row’ selection for corn lines that were either high or low in either protein or oil, starting with the common variety, Burr White. In 1900, he hired a recent graduate, Edward M. East, to help with the project. In addition to managing Hopkins’ project, East and a couple of university colleagues began to inbreed corn, starting with another popular variety, Leaming. When East took a position at the Connecticut Experimental Station in 1905, he took the inbreds with him, and in 1907 began yield testing hybrid crosses involving the Leaming inbreds.

So tell us SOD, where do you buy your non-GMO seed?

I wouldn’t get too concerned about “SBaker’s” idiotic reply. He replied to a long post of mine by asking one stupid question and basically ignoring everything that I wrote.

In my opinion, he, like the two other resident USA apologists on this website – “Carney” and “John Johnson” – are as full of sh!t as the day is long.

Thank you.

First of all, no they have not. There are no GMO varieties of most of those species on the market.
Second, the fact that GMO corn exists, does not mean I grow GMO corn. Non-GMO corn did not magically vanish. How are you this stupid and yet still able to dress yourself?

All you cited have been genetically modified. I can see you live in an urban feedlot. BTW, I am English and Scottish. You dumber african–haha

Stop pretending you are something you are not.

Barley, wheat, oats, corn, potatoes, fodder beets, flax, hemp and sunflowers. Are you going to present an argument now or just keep kvetching? What do you mean “which is it”? Which is what? Speak english you dumb kike.

Show us cost vs. life expectancy stats from 2020 on, cause the older trends could have changed.

You don’t see anybody in the fields so there’s nobody there. Women’s logic 101. Only somebody who thinks like that would express contempt for a farmer’s occupation.

The Russian (very frequently the best and more thoughtful choices and policies) regarding GMOs.

Post the article if you wish. I don’t like to click on links when I know nothing about the origin. Don’t get me wrong; the Russians have some top notch scientists, but I see you last name is Marx. I am not a gene jockey, but I have several friends that are.

As I said before–you have never been a farmer.

I asked one simple question — what crop do you know of that has not been genetically modified?

You can’t name a single one that has not been genetically modified? Answer the question please. You can’t any because all food in grocery stores has been genetically modified. Please consider volunteering for the testing of any new technology you fear. haha

Unions were once needed, like the democrats also needed slaves. The time for both is past.

The Russian (very frequently the best and more thoughtful choices and policies) regarding GMOs.

https://crispr-gene-editing-regs-tracker.geneticliteracyproject.org/russia-crops-food/

I imagine that there are some harvested crops that are not GMO; probably damn few. As I said before, GOM crops have not been tested on any humans, just like 5G. Any time I go grocery shopping, I try to avoid all foods that indicate they’re of GMO origin.

That took some real effort on your part to reply to my long post that dealt with unions, etc. I hope that you didn’t tire yourself out too much.

As I said before–you have never been a farmer. I asked one simple question — what crop do you know of that has not been genetically modified?

Like all the Econ 101 cubicle coolies you’re just jealous if the unionized workers who made double or more your income. AND you’re a farmer. The business most responsible for flooding America with tens of millions of illegal Hispanics. Who work on your farm for less than a generation. Then their kids either steal a good affirmative action job from a White American. Or remain where they were born and drift into crime idleness and dependency on their kids and baby mommas welfare.

I drive up and down the Ca big AG valleys several times a year. I see those towns and farms. Miles of angus beef cattle grazing with no humans in sight. The fruit and vegetable farms only need human workers about 6 weeks a year for planting and picking. The fruit trees and bushes only need humans about 3 or 4 weeks for picking. The fields are empty of humans. Except in strawberry picking. Lots of people then. Tiny little Asians. The Japanese American farmers probably bring
them for the short seasons from Cambodia or Burma or somewhere. Rent a slave economics.

How I despise the petty bourgeoisie who are so jealous of truly skilled unionized workers. You think you’re a step above the skilled unionized workers. But you make half their income. And the elites have no respect for you at all.

I suffered the misfortune of living in CA for 6 years. Your attitude about “unions” is driving your diatribe. I have never had a hispanic on my farm in the middle of the country. I know people that have and see them mainly in cities here, but the problem for the union slugs, is the hispanics work circles around them. And I get it, the job of the union bosses is to make the workers hate the “big corps” they work for.

The Democrat Party is composed mainly of three types of people 1) welfare bums who want to be paid for doing nothing; 2) union workers who want to be paid a whole lot for doing very little; and 3) blood sucking career politician lawyers who are willing to steal from hard-working people to buy the votes of the first two groups. If these “skilled union workers” are so talented, why would 3rd world workers outperform them–they must be more skilled, right?

If you wish to put your money where your mouth is; we can place a wager through Las Vegas agents that hold the betting money? How bout it union bot?

Like all the Econ 101 cubicle coolies you’re just jealous if the unionized workers who made double or more your income. AND you’re a farmer. The business most responsible for flooding America with tens of millions of illegal Hispanics. Who work on your farm for less than a generation. Then their kids either steal a good affirmative action job from a White American. Or remain where they were born and drift into crime idleness and dependency on their kids and baby mommas welfare.

I drive up and down the Ca big AG valleys several times a year. I see those towns and farms. Miles of angus beef cattle grazing with no humans in sight. The fruit and vegetable farms only need human workers about 6 weeks a year for planting and picking. The fruit trees and bushes only need humans about 3 or 4 weeks for picking. The fields are empty of humans. Except in strawberry picking. Lots of people then. Tiny little Asians. The Japanese American farmers probably bring
them for the short seasons from Cambodia or Burma or somewhere. Rent a slave economics.

How I despise the petty bourgeoisie who are so jealous of truly skilled unionized workers. You think you’re a step above the skilled unionized workers. But you make half their income. And the elites have no respect for you at all. You too can be replaced by Asian and Indian cubicle coolies who will make half of what you make. And live 25 people on bunk beds in a small 3 bedroom house.

You brag about making money on the stock market. Most of the men I know make money on the stock market. Nothing special about that. It’s what men do.

Your post is about 50% nonsense. I worked at those factories because they were a way of myself attaining some semblance of fiscal “success.”

Quote:

“I’ve been a scientist for most of my 7 decades of life, from chemist to bio-scientist. At the same time I have lived on a farm for 5 decades growing livestock and food. Furthermore I am a stock market investor–an easy way to add to the income stream.”

How could you be living on a farm, growing livestock & food and at the same time hold positions as a chemist and bio-scientist? Regarding farming, the USA now is being inundated with bio-engineered crops 0f genetically modified organisms (GMOs), which have NOT been tested on human beings.

You said in one of your posts that Roundup® has been “tested hundreds of times” – by whom? The pesticide companies? On humans?

In regard to your diatribe on unions, if it were not for the companies treating their workers with such contempt in the first place, there would never have been any need for unions. If it were not for the unions, we probably still would not have any benefits, such as paid vacation, sick leave, profit sharing, etc.

The claims for GMO Frankenstein organisms have all been falsified. The claims were
– For crops and farmed animals: viability in hardiness and productivity.
– For crops: (a) more nutrients (b) crop, produce and agro-chemicals safe for people, other farms and biomes (c) less need for agro-chemicals.

Apart from the failed crops, polluted farms in the area and resistant weeds, the produce itself is infused with the poisonous agro-chemicals, with no scope to remove them.

From the Green Revolution onwards, the meddling in farming has been exploitation and scam.

Mr. Unz:

Please re-read what I wrote about MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, especially meeting with the sheriff’s deputies of the Sullivan County, Tennessee Sheriff’s Department and also with a constable who was serving in that capacity for Carter County, Tennessee.

Those links that I sent you are links to legitimate websites. What do you consider “credible” – articles originating from mainstream sources? If so, you are NOT going to find any that will meet your criteria as being “credible.”

I can see right now that my communication to you was a complete waste of time on my part.

Brad Anbro (REAL name)

I wish I was a boomer. Then I could be drawing way more s.s. than I ever paid in along with a fixed benefit pension while burning through my kids inheritance.

I wish I had not been forced to pay a dime into SS. I could have made a fortune with the invested money, now, I get some paltry check that is worth about 10% of what I was forced to pay in .

Regarding your second assertion that I “hate capitalism� – I HATE the “capitalism on steroids� that we now have here in the USA. I spent my entire adult life working as an industrial electrician (United Auto Workers Journeyman Electrician) in INDUSTRY – factories that produced high quality, needed products for which there was a demand. I know EXACTLY what makes a business profitable.

Nowadays, most of the production here in the USA has moved to foreign countries, in search of ever-higher profits – the American labor force be damned! The company from which I retired, had been in existence in Rockford, Illinois for over 100 years. Before I began my work there, it was a family-owned business, who treated their employees with the utmost respect. Back when it was family owned, they had a top-notch cafeteria for all of the employees. My immediate supervisor had been there for over 37 years.

The courtesy of a response is sometimes difficult and may offend, but take it for what it is worth. I’ve been a scientist for most of my 7 decades of life, from chemist to bio-scientist. At the same time I have lived on a farm for 5 decades growing livestock and food. Furthermore I am a stock market investor–an easy way to add to the income stream. The Uncle I was named after, was a mechanical engineer and with my aunt as business manager, made parts for all the Big Auto makers, that are now fading fast. Unions have been a horribly destructive force, driving industries out of the country for better, cheaper, laborers that are grateful for their jobs, and aren’t taught to hate their employers. I realize this feeds your hatred for corporations now, but the union extortion racket is fading fast too. May we all live long enough to see the dead heap of union corruption. If not for unions, the US auto industry would have continued to lead the world. Same with the steel industry. I have never been a member of a union and enjoyed the abundance of opportunities to work and make plenty of money. Mechanization and robots will soon put all unions out of business, once the rotten democrats are out of power.

And BTW, no one ever forced you to work for those evil companies, yet you did for how many years?

All synthetic sweeteners are dangerous, not just potentially so. Though gluttony (large servings) led by marketing is important, such sweeteners should be a far greater focus that fructose per se.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/artificial-sweetener-neotame-damage-gut/5861125

Some others have claimed here that burger and other industrially produced meat is safe. But
– the industry is the major source of resistant pathogens
– hormones fed to the dairy cows may cause cancer in people
– feeding the animals substances dangerous to people continues right up to slaughter; those unaffected by cooking include heavy metals, certain medicines and sedatives
– dirty abattoirs, and the great increase in surface area of meat due to mincing, promotes a great increase in the speed of proliferation of microbes, some deadly
– the meat contains untested additives simply classified as “generally regarded as safe”
– consuming the meat is linked to heart diseases, diabetes and dementia; consuming over 200g/week of meat is strongly correlated to cancer
– the scale of operations is beyond supervision by honest regulators.

Emulsifier BVO (bromine) in drinks may irritate skin or mucous membranes, undermine coordination or memory, etc.

What crop do you grow that is not genetically modified?

Where is the factual information on “no yield advantage”–utter BS or ignorance. Which is it?

Great interview of Dr. Lustig

Video Link

Mr. Unz:

Quote:

“Perhaps you could point me to a couple of the most solid articles supporting the conspiratorial case for chemtrails, so I could get a sense of what’s behind it.”

I believe that I have done this before for you, but possibly you missed it. So, I will try again.

In regard to chemtrails, let me share a personal experience with you. A few months ago, I had to drive to Kingsport, Tennessee for a medical test. On my route there, I passed through Blountville, the county seat of Sullivan County, where I live. I brought my laptop computer with me, as I wanted to stop in at the sheriff’s office, to show the sheriff pictures that I had taken of the sky at my residence.

>objective facts don’t exist unless you are the profession I want to talk to
You are in luck, I am a farmer. You can present an argument now.

Quote:

“It is clear you know little about farming and hate the capitalist system.”

One needs to be very careful when making blanket assertions. In your case, you are WRONG on both of the assertions that you made.

I spent my teenage years in Belvidere, Illionois, which is 75 miles west of Chicago. As a youth, I belonged to 4-H and some of my school friends were members of the Future Farmers of America group (the FFA). I did not join FFA, because I did not live on a farm.

Belvidere is located in Boone County, which, at one time, had many social groups called granges. These were groups of farmers who socialized and looked after each other. They put on dinners for the public, which were very popular with city people. Nowadays, the granges in Boone County have dwindled down in number and I believe that there is only one left in the county.

Little point in discussion with someone who is clearly not a farmer.

WITH THE HELP OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, I HAVE JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION THAT LOW-CARB DIETS MAKES YOU BEAUTIFUL AND ATHLETIC. AND HIGH CARB DIETS MAKES YOU UGLY AND FAT!!

I have done research on the internet, in several bloggers, and on book review pages. And i’ve noticed by personal observance that most people who support low-carb diets are athletic and fit, while those people who are supporters of high-carb diets look overweight, fat and bloated. In that personal study i’ve also checked with my own eyes, few beautiful celebrities’s personal diets as well.

So i have jumped to the scientific conclusion that the right way to lose weight and get pretty is the low-carb diet, because I’ve noticed (by oserving the photos of the profiles and avatars of the people who follow high-carb diets like the book “The Starch Solution” by Dr. Richard Mcduglas are fat, wrinkled and bloated and ugly. While most people who follow low-carb diets are very pretty and very athletic.

This personal research has been based by relying on the Scientific Method, the Rationalist Empirical Method of great thinkers, the philosophers and scientists like John Locke, Emmanuel Kant, David Hume, Bertrand Russell, Ludwig Feuerbach, Fredrich Nietzsche, Hegel, etc. How good science and philosophy are, because science and philosophy can give people the tools they need to know who is good and who is bad. What is true and what is a lie. What works and what doesn’t work. What is false and what is reality. And thanks to science I have determined that high carb diets don’t work, they make people ugly and fat while low carb diets like keto diets, carnivorous diet, zero carb diets, low-carb diets can make people look more athletic and beautiful

.

Holy fuck Ron, come on. You are smarter than this. Taubes is a fraud, try actually looking at his citations, they don’t support his claims at all. His books are worse than wikipedia articles for fake citations. This whole sugar demonization nonsense is easily dismissed by simply looking at the data. Sugar consumption in the UK in 1890 was 90 lbs/person/year. Graph obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease and sugar consumption over the last 100 or so years. Notice how sugar consumption goes down while the other 3 go up? That means they aren’t caused by sugar.

This is even more disappointingly lazy because we know how type 2 diabetes is caused, and sugar and insulin are not involved at all. Type 2 diabetes is caused by 4-HNE (a byproduct of polyunsaturated fat peroxidation) damaging pancreatic islet cells that produce glucagon. The result is constant glucagon production, even in the presence of insulin (which is supposed to suppress glucagon). It has absolutely nothing to do with “insulin spikes”, which are the normal, healthy response to eating. Preventing insulin release causes electrolyte deficiencies, which is why ketards are always shilling some overpriced electrolyte drink or another.

Finally, we have plenty of people who have 100% eliminated their type 2 diabetes on a diet consisting entirely of white rice and refined white sugar. We’ve known this for 50 years. You reverse type 2 diabetes by ELIMINATING LINOLEIC ACID.

>If you shut off the switch and say, ‘No more GMOs tomorrow,’ you need an additional 300 million acres to make up for the crop-yield advantages lost.

There is no yield advantage, there is a labor advantage. GMO crops are simply resistant to glyphosate so they can spray to kill weeds. The alternative is not “lose yield because of weeds”, it is “cultivate to kill weeds”. This is what every corn farmer did pre-WW2. Of course, you could also simply grow a cover crop and mulch it then no-till through it for seeding, which increases yield while reducing labor, but that doesn’t fit the agrocorp narrative that you need them.

The American “farmer� will not be plagued by dust & COPD much longer. The super-huge corporate owned mega-farms are rapidly making family farming extinct, kind of like mom & pop grocery stores. The equipment used by these mega-farms utilizes cabs that have filtered, heated air and air conditioning, minimizing exposure to dust. So that they can more effectively grow and harvest UNTESTED genetically modified organism (GMO) crops.

It is clear you know little about farming and hate the capitalist system. Do you grow a garden? What constitutes your idea of a family farm? Do you live in a CHFOs—Confined Human Feeding Operation? We call them cities. Many cities have in excess of 25,000 people/square mile living on top of each other similar to the way poultry are raised.

Where is your citizenship? Govt supported cheap-food policies have been in effect since the 1940s.

If you shut off the switch and say, ‘No more GMOs tomorrow,’ you need an additional 300 million acres to make up for the crop-yield advantages lost. Farmers need places to tap those acres. Where? Wetlands? Rain forests?” How many 100s of millions will starve?

Another thing to consider is our food is increasingly polluted with pesticide residues, especially glyphosate which is in nearly everything (have your tap water tested: the test will include glyphosate as standard procedure). Glyphosate kills the microbiome in the gut so what is its part in the chronic disease epidemic?

The claim against it is complete BS driven by a corrupt, California legal system. Roundup has been used for 40 years and tested 100s of times in a dozen species and is about as toxic as table salt. This baseless lawsuit happened in CA where everything is labeled a potential carcinogen. Yes in CA, where the wine industry is a 100 billion dollar industry and alcohol, a proven carcinogen in a dozen species, is responsible for 3% of the world’s cancers in humans. Where are the lawsuits for this PROVEN carcinogen, not to mention the accidents and lives ruined from addiction.

BUT EtOH would never be prescribed because its “side effects� are (maybe) obviously way worse than most drugs.

The headaches are primarily caused by dehydration from winos that drink heavily–alcohol inhibits ADH (ie Anti-diuretic Hormone). Cars kill, airplanes kill; ETOH kills millions and people ingest it freely. Alcohol is responsible for 3% of the world’s cancer, and death by accident are also high on the list. It is in fact, the world’s #1 drug problem. It is legal and makes money for govt and ethanol drug vendors.

The next entry in the American Pravda series should be on how head chopping terrorists in Syria became moderate diversity-friendly rebels. It’s so in your face right now.

How about an American Pravda on so-called chemtrails? It would be great to hear from a source that it least tries to be balanced. Conspiracy theorists treat anyone who doesn’t buy into every bit of their theories as a moron, while mainstream sources refuse to even consider the possibility the official story isn’t 100 percent true.

They probably could have used vitamin C as a better preservative for part of the sugar load if preservation was really the target. Human cells transport ascorbate like glucose but without the adverse glycemic impact.

Harold,
I also disagreed with Ron here but I believe that he was accidentally equating juicing (as in fruit juices) with blending. The entire purpose of juicing is to extract the juice and leave the fiber behind. However, when blending to make a smoothie the entire fruit would be processed: fiber, rind, and all. In the latter we would still be consuming all the fiber. I believe that these processes belong in distinct categories.

It would be like equating drinking apple juice to eating an apple.

when I googled it, it looks like grapefruit juice is about as high in sugar/fructose as orange juice. But it’s probably worth double-checking that.

I also got some conflicting information, but on the whole, grapefruit has less sugar than orange juice.

https://foodstruct.com/compare/grapefruit-vs-oranges

Other websites may vary on that, but I’m reasonably certain grapefruit is better in that regard.

Since this is a thread about health, I’ll also offer some empirical and anecdotal experience with getting health information off the Internet. In this case, vis-a-vis cancer and Chemo.

I knew someone with cancer, and she was concerned about taking Chemo, and we both scoured and poured over the Internet and asked friends and family and so forth, but the information we got was contradictory, even from friends and family. Some said they knew someone who was cured by Chemo, and some said they knew someone who had died from Chemo.

Ditto the websites, who either considered Chemo a prudent thing for some cancer patients, vs. others who considered it a scam for the medical community to get rich poisoning people.

But eventually she went on Chemo, and what I can attest to, is that it killed cancer cells, because I literally could see it doing so. One day a small spot on the skin, and the next day it was the size of a silver dollar, because the spot was dead cancer cells that the Chemo was killing.

So in some cases, Chemo actually works. That’s my empirical testimony.

fwiw

Keto is extremely unhealthy, though, and you’re likely to die younger if you stay on keto than on the standard, very unhealthy, American/Western diet. Happily, it’s extremely difficult to impossible to stay on keto for longer than a few years,

Keto is like permanent winter. Plant and fruit based diets are permanent summer (sucrose is the height of summer mating frenzy time without end); neither one of them is particularly healthy or comfortable to follow for years.

Video Link
It starts talking about high blood glucose stimulating conversion to fructose at at 45:51. Experiments with knockout mice and glocose to fructose being the pathway to obesity at from 49:40 Key findings from 50:00 to 51:40. There isn’t cast iron evidence that it is the major mechanism of obesity in humans but high carb diets can lead to 25 grams synthesis of fructose a day, likely more.

Semen is unique among body fluids for a high concentration of the monosaccharide fructose (average, 15 mM; normal range, 5 to 30 mM) (22), which is required to support sperm viability, function, and motility.

‘ 300 fold higher than fructose in blood’

AI Overview
The polyol pathway is one of several pathways that are upregulated to handle excess glucose. …]
The polyol pathway, also known as the sorbitol-aldose reductase pathway, is a two-step metabolic process that converts glucose into fructose:
Glucose to sorbitol: The enzyme aldolase reductase converts glucose to sorbitol.
Sorbitol to fructose: Sorbitol dehydrogenase oxidizes sorbitol to fructose.
The polyol pathway is active when there are high levels of glucose in the cell, and is thought to play a role in diabetic complications. Some of the complications associated with the polyol pathway include

Here, we describe a survival pathway used by many species as a means for providing adequate fuel and water, while also providing protection from a decrease in oxygen availability. Fructose, whether supplied in the diet (primarily fruits and honey), or endogenously (via activation of the polyol pathway), preferentially shifts the organism towards the storing of fuel (fat, glycogen) that can be used to provide energy and water at a later date. Fructose causes sodium retention and raises blood pressure and likely helped survival in the setting of dehydration or salt deprivation. By shifting energy production from the mitochondria to glycolysis, fructose reduced oxygen demands to aid survival in situations where oxygen availability is low. The actions of fructose are driven in part by vasopressin and the generation of uric acid. Twice in history, mutations occurred during periods of mass extinction that enhanced the activity of fructose to generate fat, with the first being a mutation in vitamin C metabolism during the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction (65 million years ago) and the second being a mutation in uricase that occurred during the Middle Miocene disruption (12–14 million years ago). Today, the excessive intake of fructose due to the availability of refined sugar and high-fructose corn syrup is driving ‘burden of life style’ diseases, including obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure

The scientific evidence is clear that keto diets, such as those you went on 3 times to lose weight, work almost as well as whole plant food diets for losing weight, and that those two are the most successful weight loss diets.

Keto is extremely unhealthy, though, and you’re likely to die younger if you stay on keto than on the standard, very unhealthy, American/Western diet. Happily, it’s extremely difficult to impossible to stay on keto for longer than a few years, though that can be long enough to cause permanent damage. Keto works by tricking your body into turning your appetite off / greatly reducing it.

Whole plant food is very healthy, and is easier to stay on in the long term. Appetite stays normal, and you are satisfied by the large amounts of low-calorie food you eat filling your stomach up – the natural way to eat.

Basically, the scientific evidence, which I’m certain you’ll never look at, is clear that eating too much fat is what makes people fat.

8+ shots of vodka “almost daily” isn’t healthy, of course. I don’t think that you’ve been following any kind of scientific method in your weight losses, nor do I think your personal observations are reliable.

Yes, the evidence is clear that processed sugar isn’t a healthy food. However, it’s not one of the worst foods either. Demonising carbs and promoting fats, as Unz does, is harmful because it’s an almost exact inversion of what is healthy.

You yourself don’t sound the most objective. People have different points of view. There’s no law that says someone can’t be right about one thing and wrong about another, or vice versa.

I agree that Unz could be wrong about food and right about everything else. But his two articles about food have certainly at least caused me to greatly lower the amount of respect I had for him.

For the food issue is not a question of “different points of view”. We have copious scientific evidence that whole plant foods are healthiest (and really the 1990s was the last period anyone could reasonably say otherwise). This is the only objective/scientific/realistic point of view.

So Unz must be incapable of assessing the evidence in nutrition or he is lying in his two articles – I don’t think he’s lying. He said he’s read 10 books and various other things which is a significant investment of time – if he can’t come to a reasonable conclusion due to cognitive distortions on food/nutrition, I think it’s reasonable to question his judgement in general.

Always fun and provocative following Ron’s intellectual adventures and discoveries.

Folks here might enjoy this YouTube channel, short videos by a guy who eats various foods and then notes their effect on his blood-sugar levels:

https://www.youtube.com/@insulinresistant1

And I recommend the documentary “Fat Head� by the very smart comedian Tom Naughton. It’s a response to Morgan Spurlock, it’s very Atkins and Taubes-friendly, and it’s interesting and amusing.

Video Link

Yes, your body makes it for various purposes and too much when you overeat, it says so in the vid in the same comment. Overeating ordinary food leads to greatly increase production of fructose. I’ll try to find the bit in the vid I posted where he says that later (busy for a few hours now). But I did try to link to the bit where he says stopping excess manufacture of fructose from over eating is why you should drink lots of water. It’s an extremely informative video and he is a reliable well qualified source IMO.

If you eat a lot a calories of not dangerous foods then your body will manufacture fructose, which is the main deleterious part of sugar.

Video Link

Allow me to add one thing to the medical discussion – upon graduating from high school in 1969, I got a job at a chrome plating factory. The chrome was “hard chrome” and not the decorative chrome that one sees on car bumpers, etc.

We plated the insides of cylinders for chain saw engines, the insides of big sleeves for US Navy diesel engines, shock absorber shafts, etc. They had very poor ventilation in the plant and the air just above the tops of the tanks would be ORANGE in color. If one had the slightest nick on one’s skin, contact with the chrome plating solution would cause a “chrome sore,” a non-painful festering of the wound which would NOT heal until one was permanently away from the chrome environment. I had scars from chrome sores and it took many years for the scars to not be noticeable.

The chrome fumes did other damage. They ate out the insides of one’s nostrils, so that if one were to go outside in the winter, one’s nose would run profusely. My nose, the middle part, which separates the two nostrils, has a hole about 1/4″ in diameter and 1/4″ in from the outer edge of my nose. The chrome fumes ate out the skin. I can actually take a wire and put it in one nostril and have it come out the other.

I was applying for a job at a factory some years later and the doctor giving the exam peered up my nose and said to me, “You used to work in chrome plating, didn’t you?” I asked him how he knew and he gave me a medical name for the condition of my nose and told me that it was a dead give-away of someone having worked around chrome plating.

I am 73 years old and my nose still runs when I go from a warm area to a cold one.

Thank you.

Starch is not a problem in the way fructose is, however it does have a high “glycemic index� compared to meat, fat, nuts, cheese, etc.� A food’s glycemic index is a number that indicates how quickly it causes your blood sugar to rise.� I understand that changes in blood sugar (glucose) should be gradual, that sharp changes are harmful.

Foods having a low glycemic index should be eaten along with starchy foods – bread with cheese for example.� I gather that lowers the index of the combination more so than just averaging it down.

Xylitol – a sweet substance that looks like sugar (I wrote about it in a comment to your previous nutrition article) – has a very low glycemic index, no fructose, and is good for your teeth.

The “I understand I gathers� are there because this is not my field.� I’ve read popular articles about the subject that were convincing.

“de novo lipogenesis is almost 100% from eating fat, the human body ALMOST NEVER converts carbohydrates into fat.”

Three times I’ve lost significant blubber whilst consuming a high-fat high-protein diet. Three times I re-gained the blubber because I reverted to a higher-carb diet. Two of those three weightlosses included binge drinking large quantities (8+ servings) of vodka almost daily; one did not. Vodka consumption is orthogonal to my weight, except it makes me crave fatty salty complex carbs – viz potato chips. Fat and protein consumptions are also orthogonal to my weight. Only carbs reliably pile on the jiggly wiggly pounds. What’s your explanation for me? How do you explain away my lived experience?

Given your hypothesis that it was the sugary soda drinks that were the true culprit in the health problems presented in Super Size Me, do we know for sure that he drank regular Coke as opposed to Diet Coke? Is that stated in the film?

Also, do you think that Diet Soda, which uses artificial sweeteners as opposed to real sugar, are actually better for you or not? I haven’t researched this subject in detail, but I do know that aspartame and other artificial sweeteners have gotten a bad rap over the years. Or maybe Big Sugar has propagandized against those as well?

“FAT HEAD” Is a nice counter point to “Super Size Me.” In it, Tom Naughton (who is still alive) doesn’t trust Spurlock’s math so repeats the experiment without the soft drinks and sweets; all his biomarkers improved after a month. Well done, entertaining and worth watching. On youtube.

Another thing to consider is our food is increasingly polluted with pesticide residues, especially glyphosate which is in nearly everything (have your tap water tested: the test will include glyphosate as standard procedure). Glyphosate kills the microbiome in the gut so what is its part in the chronic disease epidemic?
As farmers, 40 years ago we sprayed our wheat once during the growing season for weeds with fairly innocuous chemicals; now I watch my neighbors routinely spray 4 to 6 times and oftentimes with chemicals that are banned in many countries.

Most people lack objectivity about certain topics, even a new or compelling topic might blow someone over.

In the case of the sugar articles, it could be a result of trying to deal with his own or a relative’s health problems.

You yourself don’t sound the most objective. People have different points of view. There’s no law that says someone can’t be right about one thing and wrong about another, or vice versa.

I suspect the vax has created a whole new generation of health nuts. Health problems will often lead to desperate measures or a feverish search for remedies.

Sugar is an easy target, after all, I really don’t think it’s the most healthy thing to eat, that seems to almost be simple common sense. Seeing as it is highly purified, it is pure carbohydrates being delivered without other nutrients.

My grandfather was an accountant at a ready-mix (lots of silica dust in the air), his second job, that he continued with after retirement.

He should have quit, he died at 70 of a lung inflammation disease.

My statements of fact and the sources I listed were all strictly scientific and entirely correct according to more than a century of the best nutritional science. So you can safely bank on what I said.

Both the plant-based doctors I mentioned are highly accurate and honest when it comes to nutritional science, as are other well-known, plant-based doctors such as Dr Caldwell Esselstyn (1956 Olympic gold medal in the rowing eights), Professor Colin Campbell (author of the biggest-ever, nutritional-science study – The China Study) and Dr Neal Barnard (founding president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM)).

It’s not my fault that the healthiest foods are whole plant foods – potatoes, grains, beans, vegetables and fruit – and that you don’t enjoy eating those foods as much as the crap you usually eat. 😀

I’m not trying to be holier-than-thou – I eat my share of crap foods – it’s just that I’ve taken the trouble to find out which foods are healthiest and I’m not willing to lie to myself about it, unlike the vast majority of people including Unz.

The vast majority of the American Pravda series is good, in my view. Unz has a habit of misleadingly magnifying things which bolster his argument and minimising or ignoring those which go against his thesis, but generally the series is positive.

But with these two, new, completely-wrong, even aggressively-anti-scientific articles on nutrition in support of the keto nuts, I feel that, at best, Unz is finally jumping the shark – maybe he’s run out of steam and is just not doing the reality-checking any more, maybe he’s rushed into this new arena without sufficient consideration.

Or maybe, as I said, Unz has always been mostly wrong. I’m still considering the possibilities. It’s probably a combination of both of those.

“The fat you eat is the fat you wear� does not apply, not just to cows but to humans as well.

de novo lipogenesis is not significant in the human body, it increases on predominantly carbohydrate diet.

If you’d bothered to try and learn something and read the Dr McDougall link I provided, you’d have found out that de novo lipogenesis is almost 100% from eating fat, the human body ALMOST NEVER converts carbohydrates into fat.

The scientific evidence indicates that a carbohydrate (starch) intake of around 80%-90% of one’s calories is optimal for human health. Protein and fat should be around 5%-10% each, probably more towards the 5% than the 10%.

You’re a great example of someone who will never be right because you never look at the evidence.

Re the claimed increase in amount of sugar in McDonald’s beef. Yes it is true that sugar is used as a preservative, but that would mostly be foods that are not refrigerated. It’s more likely that sugar in such a product is added for flavor.

Hi,

Detrimental health effects of not having blood glucose in the optimal range:

https://www.lifeextension.com/search#q=glucose&t=coveob1f40832&sort=relevancy

https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols#glucose-management-amp-diabetes

Medical advisory board: https://www.lifeextension.com/featured-articles/special/medadv/medical-advisory-board

Scientific advisors: https://www.lifeextension.com/featured-articles/special/advisory/scientific-advisory-board

The Chinese are massive carnivores. They also eat a lot of processed food as a trip to Beijing will confirm. They are also very active. They get up early and go go go all day, from children to the old. They do eat a lot of healthy raw food and have a very varied diet. Their meat skewers are wonderful and many many restaurants have tanks of live any aquatic creature you can dream of, for your consumption. You might be thinking of Buddhist SE Asians?