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On May 2, James North and Phil Weiss talked with Norman Finkelstein in his Brooklyn home about the Six Day War, its history, its mythology and its impact on US Jewish life. Finkelstein then revised the transcript of that conversation.
Weiss: How important was the Six-Day War in your neighborhood when you were a kid?
Finkelstein: I was in 8th grade. My social studies teacher, Josh Abramson, was a religious Jew. I remember in the schoolyard—I can see the scene in my mind’s eye—he had transistor radio to his ear. He was visibly worried about Israel’s fate. It seems a lot of Jews worried. I recently read Professor Chomsky’s reminiscences. He and his friends in Cambridge also feared the worst.
But it came, they won, it went.
It was the era of the Vietnam War and Black Power. Go back and look at the topical television programs. Laugh In, The Smothers Brothers, All in the Family. Israel never comes up.
It’s historical revisionism that Israel figured prominently in Jewish life back then. When you say someone in ‘67 was a “Zionistâ€â€”well, Zionism, it wasn’t an issue. There were a handful of idealistic young people, the Bernie Sanders type, who had romantic ideas of socialism, kibbutzim.
But folks like Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer—Schumer attended my high school, a few years ahead of me—wanting to experience the hard life? You’ve got to be kidding! Schumer was the son of an exterminator. The last thing he wanted to experience was a gritty life! He once said that his father “hated his job†and he was determined not to end up like his father. Schumer was his class valedictorian. He got a perfect score of 1600 on his SAT, a rare feat in those days. He was out to conquer the upper reaches and inner sanctums of American power, not sing Kumbaya on some kibbutz in a backwater.
Weiss: My mother’s best friend, Golda Werman was born in Berlin in 1930. She and her husband moved from Bloomington to Jerusalem in 1968. My cluster may not be meaningful, but there were people for whom this was very important. Bernie Avishai, MJ Rosenberg—they were called by that, their lives changed.
I, too, remember some classmates who did “aliya.†But I had in mind the top tier in my school, the soon-to-be movers and shakers.
North: In ‘71, ‘72, Chuck [whom North knew] would turn it around to Israel. I would say to Chuck, I admire Ho Chi Minh. Who do you admire? I’d have to think. No American politicians. Certainly David Ben-Gurion. But you’re entirely right, he wasn’t going to move there.
Weiss: What about your family?
My eldest brother lived in Israel for a short while. He was there during the 1973 war. He was a bit of a loner. He went there in search of family. When he returned we argued bitterly. But he later turned against Israel with a vengeance. I suppose it was a feeling of betrayal, as the truth slowly sunk in. Now he makes me look like Alan Dershowitz.
My parents perceived the whole world through the prism of the Nazi holocaust. The Red Army defeated the Nazis, so the Russians could do no wrong. A Jew who didn’t support the Soviet Union was a sellout and traitor. Those were the epithets they used. You can laugh, but for my parents it wasn’t a laughing matter.
Israel Gutman was a director of Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem. My father knew Gutman in Auschwitz. They were on the Auschwitz Death March together, and then in the same Displaced People (DP) camp in Linz, Austria. They both belonged to Hashomer Hatzair, the Zionist youth movement that was pro-Soviet at the time. They were very close. Gutman eventually became—via revelation or prudence—very anti-Soviet. My father lost all respect for him. As far as my father was concerned, he was just another sellout and traitor.
My parents were, as my mother used to put it, the real McCoys. Starting in the 1970s, everyone who had immigrated from Europe after the war pretended to be a Holocaust survivor. Well, my parents were Holocaust survivors.
Every member of my family was exterminated on both sides. No grandparents, aunts, uncles. [He gestures to pictures on his wall.] That was my mother’s father. My mother’s mother. Her two sisters and her brother. If I can point to these pictures, it’s because my mother had an aunt in the US, so before the war my mother’s mother had sent over the pictures.
No pictures survived of my father’s family. My mother once glimpsed from afar my father’s sister in Majdanek before she was killed. Every so often during their marriage, my father would suddenly stand solemn, erect, pensive, as he pled with my mother, “Tell me what she looked like.â€
When the Holocaust industry started up in the ‘70s, authentic survivors were in high demand. My parents were not indifferent to money—I’m not going to idealize them—they would not sneer at the opportunity to make a buck. My mother was a witness at a trial of Nazi concentration camp guards from Majdanek in 1979. The survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, several tens of thousands, including my parents, were deported to Majdanek. My mother was going to testify but—I’m not happy to admit this—at one point she wanted the German government to compensate her. I found that really wrong. I’m saying this in the context of, my parents could have cashed in on the Holocaust. Like Elie Wiesel, who was both a mountebank and consummate Holocaust entrepreneur. He accumulated tens of millions of dollars playing the role of a Holocaust survivor.
But the Holocaust industry only let survivors bear witness if they denounced the Soviet Union. The campaign to “Free Soviet Jewry†was in high gear—the Jackson-Vanik amendment, etc. As much as they liked money, there was no way on god’s earth my parents would ever utter a single word critical of the Soviet Union. So they were never asked to speak.
I’ve always respected their fidelity. They loved Stalin even as the Communist Party blushed at his legacy. My mother was very smart. She knew many languages including Latin—to the end of her life she devoured books at a pace that bewildered the local librarian and she effortlessly summoned forth a better vocabulary than my own—was president of her high school class, and went on to study mathematics at Warsaw University. But she refused even to acknowledge that Stalin killed Trotsky. “It was the CIA.†Well, there was no CIA then.
You might call it fanaticism, but at bottom it was faithfulness: however unpopular it might be, you don’t betray a friend. They might have been wrong, but my parents weren’t up for sale. They despised Israel when it aligned with the US in the Cold War at the time of the Korean war. Up until Korea, it was still touch and go. It was unclear which way Israel was going to lean. Mapam, the second largest Israeli political party, was blindly pro-Soviet. It even supported Stalin during the 1953 Doctors’ Plot.
My mother also couldn’t fathom the Israeli psyche. She couldn’t see anything redemptive in military service or war. She used to say, “Better 100 years of evolution than one year of revolution.†War was the ultimate horror. But Israel was a modern-day Sparta. After ’67, Moshe Dayan came to embody this martial spirit. They reveled in death, killing.
North: Speaking of Moshe Dayan, if you could put blame on a single Israeli for what happened in ‘67, would you choose anyone?
I wouldn’t choose any single person. It was a collective decision. You can’t understand ‘67 unless you remember that only a decade elapsed between it and Israel’s forced withdrawal from the Egyptian Sinai in ’57 after the Israeli invasion in ’56. Israel first tried in ’56 to knock out Egyptian president Nasser, and also to conquer the Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank. It turned out to be the dress rehearsal for ‘67.
Except in ’67, Israeli leaders were divided on whether to attack without a green light from Washington. Prime Minister Eshkol didn’t want to risk a repeat of ’57, when President Eisenhower forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai. Herein was the critical factor that separated so-called doves like Eshkol from the militants generals in ‘67. Eshkol wanted to ascertain that Washington would not pull the rug from under their feet.
North: They learned the hard way in ’56.
Yes. But once the US in effect gave Israel the green (or amber) light at the end of May and early June, Israel did a repeat performance of ‘56. Its primary goal was to neuter Nasser, to deliver a deathblow to these uppity Arabs and finish off what was called radical Arab nationalism.
Their secondary goal was to conquer the lands they had coveted but didn’t manage to seize in ’48: East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan. Tom Segev’s book, 1967, is not great, but it does copiously document Israel’s expansionist territorial aims on the eve of ‘67.
It also makes clear that Israel had already resolved at the end of May to conquer the West Bank even if Jordan stayed out of the war. The notion that Israel didn’t covet the West Bank and even warned King Hussein not to enter the war so as to avoid a conflict with it—it’s hogwash. King Hussein feared that Jordan would be isolated and an easy prey once Israel knocked out Egypt. He figured, rightly, that Israel was going to attack the Kingdom anyway, so better to join in while the Arabs still had a fighting chance of stopping Israel.
North: No one under 60 will have a grasp of the prominence and importance of Nasser, both within the so-called Arab world and in Israel, as well as the world at large. He’s still the most famous Arab leader (though Saddam Hussein maybe kind of caught up with him).
It was the era of the Nonaligned Movement. Of high hopes and expectations as the former European colonies gained independence after World War II. The heads of these newly independent states convened at the Bandung conference in 1955. The leading and representative figures at Bandung were Nasser, Tito, and Nehru.
North: Nasser gave a monthly speech, and every radio from Casablanca to Baghdad was tuned in.
Yes. He was a galvanizing, mesmerizing, orator, who tapped into popular aspirations for a better, more dignified life. Washington had mixed feelings. It feared that he would overthrow the corrupt elites in thrall to the West, in particular, the Saudis. Nasser and the Saudis were fighting a protracted proxy war in Yemen just before ’67.
But the US also hoped it could buy off Nasser and rein him in. Until the Kennedy administration. JFK finally despaired of trying to bribe him: he was proving too independent, intractable, unpredictable. In a sharp reversal of policy, it sold Hawk anti-aircraft missiles to Israel.
Incidentally, ’67 doesn’t sit easily with the “tail wagging the dog†thesis—that the Israel lobby imposes on Washington a foreign policy alien to American national interests. What you see right on the eve of the ‘67 war is this: Walt Rostow, a key national security advisor to President Johnson, says “radical Arab nationalism represented by Nasser . . . is waning.†It just needs to be ministered one knockout blow. Rostow was prescient. It was a castle built on sand. In the last analysis, Nasser was a blowhard.
The Israelis got what they wanted in ‘67, but so did Washington. They both wanted Nasser done in.
Weiss: Why wasn’t that a US interest in ‘56 too?
In fact, ‘56 was not an exception. Eisenhower and his influential Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, both loathed Nasser. They just didn’t think the timing was right for an armed attack, the moment wasn’t yet ripe. Dulles was very conflicted once the British-French-Israeli invasion got underway. “The British, having gone in, should not have stopped,†Dulles told Eisenhower, “until they had toppled Nasser.â€
So-called Arabists hold up Eisenhower as a model to be emulated. But he wanted to dispose of Nasser just as much as anyone else.
Even as things begin to shift under Kennedy, the real break comes after the ‘67 war. The US now sees Israel is a first-class fighting force—a “strategic assetâ€â€”that could protect its critical regional interests, while the radical Arab nationalist bubble has burst, the Arabs lay prostrate, they no longer need be taken into account.
North: What’s your take on historians who allege Israel had no aggressive designs in 1967 and there was a lot of confusion and conflict among its leadership?
Yes, there was some confusion and conflict. But there was a lot more unity of purpose. They all agreed on exploiting the opportunity of war to expand Israel’s borders, but some disagreement did exist on which territories to conquer and in what sequence.
The sort of history you allude to is based mostly on self-serving interviews and memoirs, and statements made for public consumption. It’s not serious scholarship. You might not like Benny Morris, but it’s undeniable that, until recently, he’s done solid if tendentious research.
It’s telling that Morris suspends his archival history before the 1967 war. In my opinion—I can’t prove it, it’s only a hunch—it’s because 1948 is, politically, a dead issue. As former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami shrewdly observed in Scars of War, Wounds of Peace, the salient outcome of the ‘67 war was it legitimized the borders that Israel conquered in ‘48. That is to say, after the ‘67 war, the Arabs had no choice except to recognize Israel as a state in its pre-‘67 borders.
So ‘48 was now a dead issue. Israel won ’48 in ‘67. The only open question from ’48 was the Palestinian refugees. But after ’67 it starts being finessed as a “just†resolution of the refugee question “based on†the right of return and compensation.
Why did Benny Morris stop his myth-shattering history at the Sinai invasion? In my opinion, he recoiled at doing to ‘67 what he did to ’48 and ‘56, because ‘67 is not a dead issue. The crucial result of ‘67 is the occupation. That’s not a dead issue, it’s a very live issue.
If Morris had written a true history of the ’67 war based on the available documentary record, he would willy-nilly have to puncture a lot of sacred, propagandistic myths, just like he did in his account of ’48 and ’56.
North: So he preferred not to do it at all?
Yes. Morris, the loyal citizen, recoiled at the prospect of such a scholarly undertaking because every commonplace about ‘67 is either a half-truth or an outright lie. The full truth casts Israel in a harsh light.
The countdown to June ‘67 begins with a dogfight over Syria in April. The Israeli air force downed several Syrian planes, one over Damascus. Who provoked it? We know the answer because Dayan himself later admitted it. Israel would dispatch bulldozers into the demilitarized zones (DMZs) along the Israeli-Syrian border to seize Arab-owned land. These repeated Israeli land grabs provoked Syrian retaliation. What happened in April was just one more in a long series of such Israeli provocations.
Every official history then goes on to say, the Kremlin falsely conveyed to the Arabs that Israel was readying an attack on Syria. But was the Soviet warning false?
North: No, it was accurate.
Yes. The Israelis were going to attack. It’s uncertain how big an attack, but there almost certainly was going to be an assault on Syria. The Israeli cabinet had taken a decision.
The best scholarly study on ‘67—it’s rarely cited—is by the mainstream Israeli historian Ami Gluska, The Israeli Military and the Origins of the 1967 War. He confirms the Israeli cabinet decision. He says, “The Soviet assessment from mid-May 1967 that Israel was about to strike at Syria was correct and well founded.â€
Nasser had a defense pact with Syria, so he was obliged to support it militarily.
He repositioned Egyptian troops in the Sinai and told UN Secretary-General U Thant to remove the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) separating Egypt from Israel, which U Thant proceeded to do. U Thant was widely condemned for acquiescing in Nasser’s request, but the fact is, U Thant legally had no choice, he acted properly. It was within Nasser’s sovereign right to order UNEF’s removal. The UN peacekeeping force was stationed on Egypt’s side of the border by agreement, and Nasser had the right to rescind the agreement.
Israeli diplomat Abba Eban famously quipped—he was very clever, very witty—“What’s the point of a fire engine if it’s removed immediately as there’s a fire?†That’s all very funny except for one thing: the original agreement in 1957 was that UNEF was supposed to be stationed—
North: Fire engines on both sides of the Egyptian-Israeli border.
Yes, on both sides. But Israel at the time refused. If it feared an Egyptian attack in ‘67, and believed UNEF was a deterrent, Israel could’ve redeployed this peacekeeping force on its side of the border….
After Egyptian troops entered Sinai and UNEF was removed, Nasser announced he was closing the Straits of Tiran. Israel officially declared this act to be a casus belli. In fact, legally, it wasn’t. But the bigger point is, Nasser didn’t really close the Straits. The closure lasted just a few days. I once talked to the guy who was head of UNEF—
North: Do you mean the Norwegian Odd Bull? A perfect name for a guy, I remember thinking at the time.
No, Bull was chief of staff of UN forces in the Middle East. I spoke with Indar Jit Rikhye, who headed up UNEF. Laughing, he told me, “I personally flew over there, the Straits weren’t closed.â€
North: I remember at the time, I was 15 years old, I remember thinking, well, they’re going to choke off Israel. Then I read your research that only 5 percent of their imports came through that port.
The one critical Israeli import via the Straits was oil. But Israel had ample supplies, enough to last several months. Nasser then said, Let’s take it to the International Court of Justice. In fact, right of passage in the Straits posed complex, unresolved legal questions. But Israel balked at adjudication by the Court.
[He grabs a book off his shelf]
Here’s the ‘67 volume from the Foreign Relations of the United States series published by the US State Department. The volume’s editors did not say the Straits were blockaded. They were very cautious as they referred to Egypt’s “purported closing†of the Straits….
Every serious historian agrees, Nasser didn’t intend to attack. There’s some dispute whether Egypt’s powerful defense minister was planning a preemptive strike, Operation Dawn, at the end of May. The legend continues, Nasser nixed it at the last moment. Anyhow, it’s irrelevant. In the week immediately preceding Israel’s first strike, Egypt wasn’t going to attack, and Israeli leaders knew it.
In early June, Israeli major-general Meir Amit, who headed the Mossad, came to Washington. Israel was dispatching many emissaries to feel out how the US would react in the event it attacked. Amit told senior American officials on June 1 that “there were no differences between the US and the Israelis on the military intelligence picture or its interpretation.â€
The key findings of multiple US intelligence agencies were, #1, Nasser was not going to attack—
North: And #2, Israel will trounce him if he did attack.
Exactly. President Johnson told Israelis at the end of May, “our best judgment is that no military attack on Israel is imminent,†and even if, against all odds, the neighboring Arab states did attack, “you will whip the hell out of them.†Amit confirmed on his early June trip to Washington that Israeli intelligence was in full agreement.
North: Meanwhile I was watching TV: Will Israel survive? And the rabbis are getting all whipped up.
The Israeli people and American Jews, they were scared. But not the leadership. In his biography of Syrian strongman Hafez al-Assad, the historian Patrick Seale titled his chapter on the ‘67 war, The Six-Day Walkover. That’s what it was, a walkover.
In fact, the war did not last six days; it lasted closer to six minutes. Once Israeli planes in a surprise blitzkrieg knocked out the Egyptian air force still parked on the ground, the war was over. Rostow later called it a “turkey shoot.†If the war lasted longer, it was only because Israel wanted to conquer the Egyptian Sinai, the Jordanian West Bank, and the Syrian Golan Heights.
The official story is, Israel attacked Syria because it was shelling Israel below from the Heights, and because of Palestinian commando raids sponsored by it. But if Syria occasionally shelled Israel from the Golan and backed the commando raids, it was in retaliation for the Israeli land-grabs in the DMZs.
Incidentally, the Palestinian commando raids were pretty much a joke. Head of Israeli military intelligence Yehoshaphat Harkabi assessed them after the war as “not impressive by any standard.â€
The PLO touted hundreds of successful commando operations, but among themselves Palestinians used to laugh that every time a car crashed in Tel Aviv, this or that PLO faction would take credit. When Yasir Arafat’s wife Suha became pregnant, the joke was, four Palestinian factions claimed responsibility. In any event, it’s clear Israel conquered the Golan because it coveted the headwaters of the Jordan and the valuable agricultural land.
The major impetus behind Israel’s attack in 1967 was to restore its “deterrence capacityâ€â€”i.e. the Arab world’s fear of it.
North: You can’t let Nasser get away with closing the Straits, even if he didn’t close them.
Exactly. Nasser was whipping up the so-called Arab street into a frenzy. When Nasser declared the Straits closed, he crossed an Israeli red line. It was the point of no return. Israeli general Ariel Sharon warned the cabinet that Israel was losing its “deterrence capability . . . our main weapon—the fear of us.â€
Weiss: Why did Jews call Nasser the momser?
In the West he was dubbed Hitler on the Nile.
Weiss: But why?
I alluded to it before, it was the heady, postwar era of anti-imperialism, Third Worldism. Nasser was an emblematic figure. Of course, it all ended in disaster. I cannot think of anything good that came of it. As my friend, the Marxist economist Paul Sweezy, used to say, “Alas, for illusions.â€
North: Nasser brought Nazi scientists to Egypt.
Yes, Egypt purchased the services of Nazi scientists. So did the US and the Soviet Union. Everyone was recruiting them. When it came to mass killing, they knew their trade.
Weiss: But cartoons in the Arab press, Damascus, Cairo, showed Jews being pushed into the sea. In advance of the war.
Yeah, the head of the PLO, Ahmed Shukeiri, gave idiotic speeches threatening to annihilate Israel.
Weiss: This is not meaningless.
No, but Israeli leaders knew it was just bluster. They weren’t deceived, fearful. The Israeli “panic†was all theater. Eban, over at the UN, was the stage manager and scriptwriter. He titled the chapter of his memoir on ‘67, “To live or perish.†A nice touch. He once observed, “Propaganda is the art of persuading others of what you do not necessarily believe yourself.†Eban was a virtuoso in the propagandist’s craft.
Weiss: What did the cartoons reflect? It was folk, popular sentiment?
Yes. But you have to look at the historical context. In his illuminating study Israel’s Border Wars, Benny Morris shows that, upon attaining power in 1952, Nasser didn’t want to go to war with Israel. He was a nationalist. He wanted to modernize Egypt. According to Morris, it was Israel—in particular, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion and Dayan—that started to plot and provoke in the early 1950s. They dreaded the prospect of an Egypt that wasn’t backward. They wouldn’t brook a modern Egypt.
North: But you were saying that the propaganda, the war fever, spread to the Israeli public. When he answered the call up, Yossi Israel was genuinely afraid he was going to be pushed into the sea.
Definitely.
North: So the leadership was culpable.
It figured the Israeli people would give their all if they felt their backs were up against the wall. The leaders were culpable twice over: they provoked the crisis and then launched an unprovoked attack.
On the other hand, it cannot be said that the lead-up—at any rate, up until Nasser declared the Straits closed—was a precalculated, precalibrated prelude to the final showdown. The situation kept escalating, although at every point Israel could have put on the brakes. It could have repositioned UNEF on its side of the border, it could have gone to the ICJ on the Straits. U Thant delineated in his memoir numerous opportunities to defuse the crisis that Israel passed up.
North: Can you think off the top of your head of a relatively recent historical event in which the popular understanding is so different from the historians’ consensus. Anything equivalent to ‘67 discrepancies?
In the case of Vietnam, popular understanding eventually caught up with the scholarly one on many (but not all) critical points. We had teach-ins, alternative media, activist scholars, skillful popularizers, it was a real movement. But Israeli propaganda has been remarkably resilient on ‘67. In the public imagination, it’s still “to live or perish.â€
Weiss: To this day?
Yep. My guess is, the 50th anniversary retrospectives will repeat the same tired story-line: the Soviets falsely claimed that Israel was planning an attack, Nasser closed the Straits strangulating Israel, Israel faced an existential threat when it attacked, Israel didn’t want to conquer the West Bank, etc. etc. It’s so painfully predictable.
Weiss: The New York Times will do that?
It’s doubtful anyone on the Times’s editorial board has a clue what really happened. It’s completely buried in an avalanche of Israeli propaganda.
North: Do you consider Michael Oren’s book on ’67 serious?
No, it’s worthless.
There’s a very good scholar named Nathan Brown, he’s at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. I once attended a conference where I delivered a scathing assessment of Oren’s book. Brown, who knew Oren personally, was also in attendance. After I presented, Brown commented, “I read your paper. I agree with a lot of what you say. Oren does go off the rails when he starts talking about Operation Dawn. But why are you so belligerent, why the hostile tone?â€
“Because it’s not scholarship,†I replied. “It’s state propaganda.†This was before Oren became an official Israeli apparatchik. He was still wearing his historian’s cap. “Had he been a serious historian, I would have adopted a different tone.â€
Many years ago I dissected Benny Morris’s seminal study on the Palestinian refugees. True, I was very critical, but I was also respectful. Oren, however, wasn’t deserving of respect; he’s always been a hack, and a liar. Once Oren outed himself as he became Netanyahu’s official mouthpiece, I felt retrospectively vindicated in that exchange with Brown.
Weiss: What about the idea that strategically, this was Israel’s biggest mistake? It got the occupation, which is delegitimizing Israel.
North: Well, it’s worked for 50 years.
I agree with James. I once attended the funeral of a former member of the Weather Underground. She had been released early as she was dying of cancer. When she and another woman were arrested, they were locked up in adjacent cells. The other woman was bawling. The woman whose funeral I attended shouted through the wall, “Knock it off! We had a great revolutionary run!â€
They set off firecrackers in a couple of post offices. “We had a great revolutionary run!†Alas, for delusions.
But as James says, 50 years isn’t a bad run.
To judge by the goals it set, Israel’s first strike was a stunning success. Did it dispose of Nasser? Yes. Did it bury radical Arab nationalism? Yes. Did it inflict a deep wound on the Arab world? Yes.
North: And it has successfully maintained the occupation.
Yes. The only thing Israel didn’t anticipate was that radical Arab nationalism would be reborn as radical Islamic fundamentalism. But who could’ve predicted that?
North: What do you think happened to the USS Liberty?
I corresponded with one of the surviving crew members, James Ennis, who wrote a book on the attack indicting Israel. His account was totally credible.
For example, a 5-by-8-foot American flag hoisted on the Liberty was fluttering in the wind on a crystalline summer day. Ennis recalled that before the assault an Israeli pilot overhead was flying so low they even waved to each other. So how could Israeli pilots have missed the flag?
It’s ingenious—or hilarious—how Oren explains away this inconvenient fact. He says, “But Israeli pilots were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines.†In other words, the pilots didn’t see what was staring them in the face above the water because they were in search of a vessel beneath the water. This explanation must have deeply impressed the Los Angeles Times, which awarded him the newspaper’s annual book prize in history.
North: The reason for the attack?
None of the standard explanations hold up. I have my own hunch but I readily admit it’s highly speculative and unorthodox.
Weiss: The conventional theory is the Liberty had radio surveillance and knocking out the Liberty allowed Israel to continue the war another two days.
It’s alleged that the Liberty had gotten wind of the fact that Israel was going to seize the Golan, so Israel attacked it. But this theory doesn’t hold up on close inspection.
My own hypothesis is, this is Israel’s big moment, the climactic of the Jewish people, a collective paroxysm-cum-orgasm. All the armed services want to get a piece of the action. The air force, the army, the navy.
The navy hadn’t yet seen real combat. As the war was winding down, they were probably anxious to be part of this glorious chapter. To play their part in the Jewish people’s revenge on the goyim.
Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead. Just read Daniel Goldhagen if you have any doubts. The Americans are goyim. They refused entry to Jews fleeing the Holocaust; they didn’t bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz; they, too, wanted all the Jews dead. Now they’re butting into our war, dispatching a spy ship into our waters, trying to restrain us in our moment of glory. Fuck the Americans! Fuck the goyim! Long live the Jews!
Besides the Israeli air assault on the USS Liberty, the Israeli navy torpedoed the vessel. It got to share in the mock heroics and avenge the millennial suffering of the Jews. Everyone got their 15 minutes of drawing blood, in memoriam of the Jewish martyrs.
I am the first to admit gaps in my hypothesis but it probably gets closer to the truth than positing a rational motive.
North: How was the attack suppressed?
Raison d’etat. Of course President Johnson knew what happened. But Israel was now the US’s “strategic asset†in the Middle East, so Johnson gave it a pass.
Weiss: We’re coming to a moment of reckoning in the Jewish community, per Alan Solow. There will be soul-searching, and the Israel lobby groups are going to have to come up with a very good narrative. Do you anticipate any sort of thoughtful examination of the war and will it have any consequences, not just historiographically, but in Israel’s image?
Whereas the real facts leading up to Israel’s first strike will be consigned to Orwell’s memory hole, the baneful effects of the war on Israeli society will probably be cause for reflection. It’s arguable that Israel became a different place after ’67. As journalist Gideon Levy recently observed, pre-’67 Israel was not a pretty place, far from it, but it also did not lack in virtues.
I hate the word nuanced, I hate the word complex—more often than not, they’re moral cop-outs—but, still, it must be possible to reconcile that, alongside the crime that was inflicted on the indigenous population, there were—just as here in the US, burdened with its own “original sinâ€â€”redeeming facets of the Israeli experiment before ‘67.
You can’t otherwise explain why many decent, progressive people, solidly anchored in the Left, found a lot to admire there. Professor Chomsky’s wife, Carol, who was very smart, sensitive, down-to-earth—she wanted to stay. She liked the people and kibbutz life. Read Marxist historian Isaac Deutscher’s admiring essays on Israel before ‘67.
Incidentally, the single shrewdest assessment of where Israel was heading after the war was Deutscher’s 1968 interview in New Left Review. It’s a withering portrait of, for example, the newly anointed King of the Jews, Moshe Dayan—“hero and savior, with the political mind of a regimental sergeant-major, ranting about annexations, and venting a raucous callousness about the fate of the Arabs in the conquered territories.†But if you read Deutscher up until ’67, a lot of what he witnessed first-hand on his several visits there resonated with him.
The place inspired a lot of young, idealistic people. It was egalitarian, it was simple, it was austere, it was communal, it was hopeful. The leaders were relatively free from venality and animated by a collective ideal. Ari Shavit’s bestseller, My Promised Land, is, for sure, schmaltz, but its rendering of these years does contain a kernel of truth.
The ‘67 war set in train a sequence of developments that turned it into a very ugly place. Yes, it can lay claim to an impressive high-tech sector, but that’s about it.
Weiss: I would say you are actually now reflecting the conventional wisdom. What you are saying—which I think might take place around that anniversary—is that we will bury the beautiful, the dream, the miracle, the desert bloom. You say, yes you could maintain that illusion up till ’67. Well I think that in this case the loss of the illusion is actually now the conventional wisdom and it will solidify on this anniversary. You’re not such a seer.
I don’t harbor illusions about pre-’67 Israel. But it’s polemical to deny that the country has changed, for the worse. While back then it practiced a Spartan equality, income inequality in Israel today is among the highest in the OECD. Another straw in the wind: Yitzhak Rabin was forced out of office in 1977 merely because his wife had opened a bank account in the US. Compare that with today, when every week another member of Israel’s political elite is implicated in a big financial scandal. It’s hard to gainsay that it’s a different place.
North: You could both be right. Phil’s right in that the realization that Israel was not what people thought it was, is growing all the time. But it might not come out in the half-century commemoration.
I don’t buy the notion of an inescapable “original sin.†Terrible things happened in ’48. But it wasn’t Israel’s teleological fate to become what it has become. Choices were made along the way. No doubt, the choices were shaped by ideological and material factors. But still, they were choices.
We Americans have our original sins. The expulsion and extermination of the indigenous population mostly couldn’t be undone. But the kidnapping and enslavement of African-Americans, well, the situation today is very far from perfect—Jacob’s ladder has many rungs—but, even as it sounds like a cliché, progress has been registered.
There’s a German word aufhebung. Hegelians, Marxists used it. It’s variously and simultaneously translated as to “abolish,†“preserve†and “overcome.†Like other countries, Israel could have abolished, preserved and overcome its original sin. But after ’67, Israel got carried away, it got intoxicated by power. It’s now a lunatic place.
If not a qualitative, then a quantitative transformation occurred in ’67. Still, it’s perhaps not too late for Israel to repair some of the damage done to the indigenous population, and itself. Look at Germany and Japan. In the first half of the 20th century, they were perhaps the most racist, expansionist states on the planet. Now, in public opinion surveys they are typically ranked the world’s most peace-loving states. Or, consider South Africa’s abrupt volte-face.
North: I will say this about South Africa. I left there in 1982, ‘83. No one, no one, would have predicted that in ten years Mandela would be out of prison. All of us would have thought, Eventually we will win. But we would have thought it would take at least twice as long. And a lot more people would have died. We all thought Mandela was going to die in prison, just because the regime was so strong. There were a number of factors, Cubans, Southwest Africa. But yeah, the fact that I was standing there watching him walk out of prison in 1990, that was just astonishing to me in 1990.
Weiss: I remember in sixth grade, JR Krevans ran up to me and said, they knocked out the Egyptian air force on the tarmac. He is now a doctor, Jewish stuff isn’t very important to him, but he had a sense of real solidarity.
Until ‘67, our self-image was scrawny, nerdy, nebbishy Woody Allen types. But after the war Jews could brag about their martial prowess.
North: “Bring Moshe Dayan here and send him to Vietnam and run our war there.†He was the big hero.
Dayan had a patch and he was a womanizer. A Jew who was half-pirate, half-Casanova! It was thrilling.
Weiss: The Life magazine cover of the bronzed Jewish soldiers in the desert was also thrilling to a WASP friend of mine. The reversal of the image of Jews in WW2; and they all loved it.
That’s very true. It’s largely forgotten that, growing up in my generation, it was a badge of shame to be a Holocaust survivor. The mantra was that the Jews went like sheep to slaughter.
North: Even though that’s not true.
But that’s how it was conceived. Jews felt embarrassed, ashamed. They were weaklings, cowards.
I mentioned earlier that my mother testified in Germany at a trial of Nazi concentration camp guards from Majdanek. I accompanied her. My mother was shocked to see the guards walking freely in the courthouse. She started to shriek. “Why aren’t they in cages? They’re animals!â€
One night as we were exiting the courthouse, the most bestial guard, Birgitta, inched up next to me on one side while my mother was on the other side. I was like, What is this?! I was breathless, aghast.
I waited for Birgitta to get about 100 yards ahead of us. I then turned to my mother and said, “Do you know who that is?â€
She squinted her eyes and then her whole body started to convulse: “Birgitta?â€
“Yes! What do you want me to do?â€
“Get her! Get her! They think we’re sheep! Get her!â€
My mother was a stereotypical hyper-protective Jewish mother. But at that moment, she didn’t give a darn what happened to me. It was just “Get her! Get her! They think we’re sheep! Get her!â€
It’s a wretched irony that, after the ‘67 war, American Jews rallied behind Israel as they proved their manhood and mettle and vindicated their honor by vicariously beating up on mostly defenseless Arabs.
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Jeff Gates on Red Ice Radio talking about his book, Guilt By Association:
Video Link
@10 min:
Our record as a peace loving nation is not anything like the image we have been led to believe. According to The Free Thought Project http://thefreethoughtproject.com/about-us/ America has been at war for 224 of the last 241 years since 1776.
https://robertmagill.wordpress.com/2017/06/04/seventeen-years-of-peace/
The deliberate attack on the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was meant to drag the USA into a war with Egypt and other Arab states, as well as attempting to hide evidence of an Israeli-led massacre of an Egyptian city. In fact, this “false flag” operation was instigated by BOTH Israel and at the highest levels of the executive branch of the U S government, as (Jewish) President Lyndon Baines Johnson wanted U S involvement. What better way to assure involvement than to destroy an American Navy ship…with all hands lost. It took a brave American sailor’s efforts to re-connect an antenna (under fire) to re-establish communications with the fleet (which was not supposed to happen).
Our American sailors were to be sacrificed in order to assure involvement in Israel’s conquests. When the sailors did not “die on command” as expected, Johnson’s hand was “forced”. He had to send help, in order to extricate himself from the situation.
This treasonous situation has not been properly investigated; the conclusions drawn in the “official report” are just so many lies and fabrications.
May God damn Israel and the traitors in the U S government for murdering 34 Americans…
Shades of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I think.
It’s good to see that UR is reprinting articles from Mondoweiss.
Bravo!!!!
America is an extension of Britain, and we have fought wars with 171 of the world’s 193 countries.
Several thoughts:
1. This trio neglected to mention that Israel had nuclear devises on hand and was prepared to use them in one way or another —
Two days ago NYTimes wrote about one such plan:
Israel’s Doomsday Plan for Nuclear Display
By WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID E. SANGERJUNE 3, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/world/middleeast/1967-arab-israeli-war-nuclear-warning.html
BUT
Isabella Ginor and Gideon Remez claims in Foxbats Over Dimona
The Soviets’ Nuclear Gamble in the Six-Day War http://yalebooks.com/book/9780300136272/foxbats-over-dimona
seem to contradict Finkelstein’s narrative and the story reported by David Sanger —
But the three sets of claims actually can be seen to fit together to form a closer-to-complete picture of those dramatic 6 days.
2. Finkelstein’s interpretation of the attack on the Liberty is chilling. Every American, and especially every American congressman and decision-maker should receive a billboard-sized copy of Finkelstein’s explanation:
Israelis attacked the Liberty — and killed 34 US personnel — out of hatred of Americans, a hatred as deep as Israeli hatred of Arabs.
Finkelstein’s words are breathtaking:
In a conversation about Lebanese reactions to the 2006 war, Finkelstein said: “I like the Jewish attitude . . . The Jewish attitude is Never to Forgive, Never to Forget. I agree with that. . . . I respect the Jewish attitude a thousand times more.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ
Video Link
It seems to follow logically that Israelis have not, and will never, slake their lust for the blood of the goyim AND the Arab.
In the three-way chat that is the content of this article, as also in a conversation between Finkelstein and Aaron Mate, it is revealed that the stories told as dogma about the 1967 war are lies; fabrications; mythology. http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=19230
Several years ago Mondoweiss posted a video in which Dana Karon, in tears, told a panel chaired by Peter Beinart that “We were lied to” in Israeli schools, about the presence (non-presence) of Arabs in Palestine. http://mondoweiss.net/2011/12/beinart-says-israel-must-give-citizenship-to-palestinians-under-occupation/
The men of the SS Liberty were told that the Israeli attack on their ship was a case of mistaken identity.
What other lies has Israel been hiding behind, and how many more people have to die to protect those mythologies?
Good interview. I imagine that Finkelstein despises most of this site.
There are many kinds of Jews.
1. Religious Jews who are into Jewish Power.
2. Religious Jews who are only into Jewish religion.
3. Secular Jews who reject Jewishness altogether.
4. Secular Jews who are rah-rah for Jewish power.
5. Secular Jews who embrace Jewishness but are critical of Jewish power.
Finkelstein belongs to #5.
I think many Jews privately agree with Finkelstein on many matters, but they feel it’s advantageous to play up the Victim Card because they see the world in terms of zero/sum game: Jews have total power or Jews have nothing. Jews can only be an Extreme People. Extremely Powerful OR Extremely Persecuted. Why? Because Jews are smart, driven, pushy, and often devious. So, this leads to a lot of wealth, influence, and abuse of power. And this naturally leads to envy, resentment, and anger(some of it justified) on the part of goyim. And once goyim get angry, they might want to pull Jews down, and then, Jews will be persecuted again.
So, Jews must be All Powerful or Persecuted. Jews cannot be a Normal People because of their outsized talents, personality, and cunning.
Therefore, even though many Jews agree with Finkelstein’s criticism of Jewish power, they believe there is no Sane or Normal way for Jews. It’s either Their Way or the Highway.
Because Jews have so much power, abused too much power, and have too many skeletons in the closet, they mustn’t given an inch. Given an inch, and the ‘anti-Semites’ will smell the blood and attack more and more.
Still, things could be changing among the younger generation.. and then maybe there will be a real fracture in Global Jewish Power, something similar to the division in the Muslim World between Sunnis and Shias(though nothing on that scale). Because Jews are far smaller in number than the Muslims and because of the magnitude of WWII and Holocaust and also due to shared ethnicity(whereas Muslims are of various races and ethnicity), Jews have been relatively cohesive in their power politics.
The Saudi vs Iran spat is heating up lately with the Qatar crisis.
Video Link
Perhaps, Saudis wouldn’t be so anti-Iran if Iran were ruled by a secular leader like the Shah. But because it is an Islamic Republic, what it stands for poses a challenge to the Saudi Royal Family as the true patrons of Islamism. If Iran were ruled by secularists, Shia-ism would be just another sect. But because Shia-ism has the full backing of the Iranian regime, it poses a challenge to the House of Saud, whose cultural legitimacy has been backed by funding Sunni Wahabitism that, in turn, has blessed the family. Without the backing of Wahabism, the House of Saud is just rich Arabs with too much money. And this is why Qatar’s less hostile approach to Iran is threatening to Saudis. Saudis fear peace with Iran more than war with Iran. Peace with Iran would mean House of Saud accepting the legitimacy of Iran as champion of Shia-ism as the other representative of Islam. That is threatening to Saudi’s role as the Sole standard bearer of True Islam. And then, Wahabis will lose respect for the House of Saud for having reneged on its role the defenders of True Islam. Sunnis can tolerate Shias as the other sect, but they cannot tolerate Shia-ism as state-backed version of the other True Islam.
In a way, Saudi Arabia and Iran are both theocracies but in reversed order. In Saudi Arabia, the real power is with the Royal Family, but its legitimacy depends on the Wahabi clerics.
In Iran, the real power is with the clerics, but it operates through the apparatus of a modern ‘democratic’ state.
In a way, the fact that Iranians are Persians is both a problem and a relief to the Saudis. It is a problem because Arabs and Persians are different, like Arabs and Kurds. But it’s a relief to the Saudis because if Shia Iranians were all Arabs, Shia-ism would pose even a greater threat as not only the Other Islam but as the faith of other Arabs.
Even though there are different kinds of Jews, the rifts are under control and there’s nothing among Jews that comes close to the poisonous hostility that exists among Muslims.
You mean, they are guilty of doing what every White does, if he or she happens to have the same intelligence and social adeptness (pushy, devious).
They live to earn wealth and influence like every other human (or White) with the right skills does, but, hey, on average they get more: how immoral!
Power and abuse of power are synonyms among mankind. Jews happen to be human too, so they plunge into addiction to power, like all other humans do.
” vindicated their honor by vicariously beating up on mostly defenseless Arabs.”
This is almost literally what jew Samuel wrote in his memoirs:
something like ‘it would be a great shame if jews from their centuries of oppression in ghetto’s just had learned how to oppress others’.
Samuel was the first British High Commisioner in the Palestine Mandate.
The Rt. Hon. Viscount Samuel. P.C., G.C.B., G.B.E., Hon. D.C.L. (Oxford). Hon. Fellow of Balliol College, Oxford, ‘Memoirs’, London, 1945
” I think many Jews privately agree with Finkelstein on many matters, but they feel it’s advantageous to play up the Victim Card ”
I wonder if they play the victim card.
The thirties experience, jews were persecuted and nowhere welcome, and the WWII horrors, whatever one may think of gas chambers, made a very deep impression on jews.
This of course was reinforced by their own holocaust propaganda, that goes on to the present day.
Those who want to see for themselves how jews are afraid I can recommend the writings of Stephen Steinlight, a USA jewish sociologist, who sees in immigration from the south a great threat to USA jewry, because ‘for them jews are just rich Americans, they do not know about the holocaust’.
“there’s nothing among Jews that comes close to the poisonous hostility that exists among Muslims.”
Correct. A hostility the West has been profitably exploiting most of this century….
Isn’t the bolded phrase a redundancy?
Mondoweiss…….You kidding right.the site is mostly supported by left foot commie bum boys these days.i was banned from there for posting a few lousy poems.but things took a turn for the straaange when i posted my farmers prophecies.after that everything was strictly moderated.i must admit i do miss some of the people posting there.at one time there was a rumour that the great fandango himself left the odd post.
Lest you forgot mr weiss and companions …..don,t take your gift of being a jew for granted.
3 companions,7 falling stars,the earth shall open,an ancient stream shall flow again.
It’s not important; it’s crucial. And it’s another fraud.
‘
I’ve spoken with a lot of American soldiers who’ve come to similar conclusions, and that’s one of the few good things to come of American intervention all over the world.
And you are an extension of your paternal great-great grandfather….but sould he have acknowledged and owned such meaningless rubbish?
To try and give your tabloid comic book repetitions of old conspiracy theorists’ assertions some credibility just firm up one cliché: “the brave American sailor’s efforts to reconnect an antenna (under fire) to reestablish communications with the fleet” . Who was the sailor? At whatvpoint in the attacks did the antenna cease to be connected and at what point re onnected? Wbat fire sas he under? Machine gunning from an Israeli plane flying directly toward him as he did what exactly? Or? AND how does your Boys Own version stand up with the story we got on an earlier thread of partal failure of jamming being the critical factor, and with the repeated insistence that Washington had realtime knowledge of what was happening?
Apr 19, 2017 Pro Palestinian rally during AIPAC convention 2017
On March 26, 2017 Thousands gathered in a pro Palestinian rally which began in front of the White House in Washington DC, followed by a march the the Washington Convention Center to protest the AIPAC convention.
Video Link
May 11, 2017 Abbas Ready to Sign Peace Deal with Israel, Sources Say
Sources familiar with the ongoing peace talk efforts say that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas signaled “unprecedented readiness†for a peace deal with Israel during his meeting at the White House last week, a sign that the peace process could be getting a big shot in the arm.
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/05/11/abbas-ready-to-sign-peace-deal-with-israel-sources-say/
Priss,
That is probably the worst comment of yours that I have read.
Your classification of Jews misses at least one important group：those opposed to the state of Israel on religious grounds.
They are the true religious ultra-Orthodox.
What the western press refers to as that, are not ultra-Orthodox, but just ultra-violent Orthodox.
There are so many other stupid ideas on other topics in your post, but my battery is running low, so will closing there for now.
May 16, 2012 “USS Liberty: Dead In The Water” (BBC Documentary 2002)
On June 8th, 1965, during the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty belonging to its closest ally, the USA. Thirty-four American servicemen were killed and over 170 wounded in the two-hour assault by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats.
Video Link
Y’all need to look at the Giraldi thread about the Liberty. Comments here are utterly uninformed on the issue.
When Nasser announced the closing of the straights of Tiran, he also upset Jordan. The Overseer of the Church of God in Jordan was visiting with us when we lived in Germany when the announcement came. He blurted in shock, “Nasser is closing our only seaport!”
Finkelstein can say what he wants, but nearly the entire population of Israel was running scared when the Tiran announcement came. Troops were being moved by both Egypt and Syria, and a state of war already existed between Israel and her neighbors. Legally, Israel could strike out at any provocation her neighbors committed at the time and it would have been righteous. The 6 day war was well within the rights of Israel.
I hope Stormin Norman got a good settlement from Loyola….
Not kidding a bit. You don’t like Mondoweiss?? You must be an anti-Semite.
Speaking of filthy commies, tell us all about the Bolsheviks. You know, Hitler was supported by Zionists, and Hitler was opposed to the Bolshies, and the Comintern plus the commie rabble rousers in his own country and he probably would’ve agreed with your attitude about the left foot commie bum boys. So, as a commie hater, where do you stand vis a vis Lenin and his political spawn? How about Stalin? Would you have supported the Hitler and his Zio-buddies? Why or why not?
It is obvious that you are a hasbara troll who will not accept truth…
The “perpetual victim” card is a main characteristic of Judaism and is ingrained in their culture. Attempts to transfer this trait to others who they (Jews) consider oppressed have met with some success. For example, the American “civil-rights” movement of the 1950s and 1960s was orchestrated by leftist Jews who successfully imposed their universal “victimhood” trait on blacks. We are living with the results of this dysfunctional trait to this day.
The “perpetual victimhood” trait is so strong, Jews are now demanding that “holocaust â„¢ reparations” be extended to children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of “holocaust â„¢ survivors” as “they too are victims of the holocaust â„¢”, which some Jewish psychiatrists now call “transference”…follow the shekels…
When will it ever end?
{The Saudi vs Iran spat is heating up lately with the Qatar crisis. }
Whoever believes in this piece of SHIT, then I should say that person either is a dummy or is a Zionist illiterate mass murderer like your Zionist illiterate servant, the ‘president’. Trump/Natnyahu are directly responsible for warning against Qatar and the terror attack in Iran.
This warning to Qatar is not the words of the Saudis, because the Saudis head of states are nothing but petty US/Israel behind lickers servants and Saudi Arabia is a COLONY where its ‘kings’ do not allow to breath without US/Israel permission.
This warning to Qatar and terror act in Iran is coming directly from the illiterate Zionist stooge, trump and Netanyahu against Iran carried out by their trained terrorists THE KURDS.
The axis of evil US – Israel – Britain project to re draw the map of the region with cooperation of US/Israel terrorists and pawns, the kurds, is behind the chaos and murdering of millions of Muslims in the region.
The mass murderers, Trump – Natanyhu, make the FAKE “Saudi vs Iran spat ” to explain their terrors and tell the DUMB POPULATION that this is a fight between Saudis and Iranians for influence. In fact, these crimes against humanity is carried out by the axis of evil US -Israel – Britain for ‘greater Israel’ and partition of the regional states to have upper hand on the middle east and North Africa resources to help the survival of the criminal jewish Zionist entity where should be destroyed.
They have a jewish state in New York and should fuck off Now.
This is, as former NATO General have said, the invasion of seven countries in five years for geopolitical gain by the United states and its mass murderers ‘leaders’ and Zionist jewish tribe.
When do you want to understand cowards?
“What other lies has Israel been hiding behind, and how many more people have to die to protect those mythologies?”
That’s an easy one:
There were the ‘Nazis’ with the mythological ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ and there were the ‘Nazis’ without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.
The ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are laughable, scientifically impossible frauds.
see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
http://codoh.com
No name calling, level playing field debate here:
http://forum.codoh.com
Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the ‘6,000,000’ lie since at least 1869?
‘antisemitic’: any thought or person that a Jew doesn’t like
The ‘6,000,000 Jews’ lie and the laughing Mexican:
“It was the era of…. All in the Family”
All in the Family debuted in January 1971.
The Six Day War occurred in 1967.
Hey Chuck
What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?
🙂
Sherm
Never.
Anyone can see that Israel cannot go on much longer like this, alas zionist jews do not see it.
Not so long ago Netanyahu tried to sell his idea in the UN General Assembly that the whole world is wrong, and just Israel right.
Jews and Armenians are exactly the same, their ideas about history are so part of their identity that is is impossible to change those ideas.
That the children of those who were persecuted and survived have psychic problems, no fairy tale, I suppose.
But what about the children of German and Japanese victims of WWII ?
Or Russian victims ?
Very interesting is
Ward Churchill, ‘A Little Matter of Genocide, Holocaust and Denial in the Americas, 1492 to the Present’, San Francisco 1997
the battle between North American Indians, and jews, which holocaust is the one and only unique one.
An excellent article from a courageous writer and thinker who is still proud of being Jewish (and why not? – if you don’t love who you are, how can you get to respect or love others).
I think Finkelstein’s reasoning behind the attack on the USS Liberty is much closer to the truth than more ‘rational’ explanations particularly in terms of the seemingly enthusiastic participation of many of the Israeli military participants. But in terms of the Israeli Establishment, the explanation that Tiger Woods gave for his marital infidelities probably applies – we did it because we could. It was a demonstration of absolute power and how Israel had completely reversed the situation of 1956 when the Eisenhower administration had enforced the end of the War and the evacuation of the Sinai.
Israeli power through the mobilization of the American Israeli lobby and Jewish ‘patriotic’ fervor for plucky Israel (well attested in the opening of the interview) had already rolled into Washington. It had forced a partial reversal in the sale of arms, a scaling down of inspections of Dinona and as Robert Parry has written about the outright theft and transportation of American nuclear material to Israel. When the green light was given for war by the Johnson Administration, what more complete demonstration was needed than to attack in broad daylight an unarmed ship of your supposedly greatest friend.
The initial cover-up and continuing American silence on the fate of the Liberty is the biggest single example of the US political establishment complete and total subjugation to Israel. Until of course you get to 9/11. Will the American people collectively ever realize the shattering truth that to the Jewish Gods in Israel and the US political establishment they the goyim are mere slaves to abase themselves and serve their Jewish master?
Your classification of Jews misses at least one important group：those opposed to the state of Israel on religious grounds.
2. Religious Jews who are only into Jewish religion.
That laughing mexican is a great edit. He is so excited about being a living mexican stereotype: lazy, dumb, and uncaring.
So do you always have that post copied incase you need to just alt-v and spread the love?
Some groups are more prone to corruption then others. Religious groups are by far the most corrupt. They have this mentality that What They are doing isnt wrong because they are “right” in the eyes of their diety.
There have been several studies recently involving children from different backgroumds. These studies show that religious children are usually more greedy, selfish, intolerant. Secular children are more altruistic and “democracy” minded. Its not hard to follow the path and see these selfish kids grow into selfish adults that are now able to spread their mindset to others in their group and the cycle continues.
Not that any of this will matter to you. You started out comparing a small religious/ethnic group to a group encompassing dozens of different and distinct cultures/ethnic groups (whites) saying that they are just as bad. Which is bs. Caucasians are by far the most altruistic group on earth. No other group is willing to sacrifice itself for a bunch of ungratefull, undeserving thirdworlders.
I will be honest and say that i never grew up in Europe.i always thought stalin and lenin were musicians similar to simon and garfunkel.you know.russian folk musicians.way before my time.even before dylan went electric.
Obviously i was wrong.i know one thing though.the past is worthless.the spark gone.all that counts now is the future.there are no communists or whatevers left.
there are only consumerists.and commie bum boys who wring there hands in despair while feeding at the trough
Consumerism….The most dangerous political movement the world has ever seen.
Eating its way through this body of a planet.
I favor the area of New York North of Albany and from the Pennsylvania border to Lake Eire separating from the Jewish State of New York.
Just read their Bible Mr Truther. Do you think there’s anything really nasty about the Jews that one of them wouldn’t have rushed out to get credìt for the scoop?
Well bless you for your honesty, but I wish the same could be wished for your erudicity. And it’s obvious that you never grew up in Europe since it’s certain that you’ve given growing up short shrift along with your humor, or is that your attempt at wit?
Please do keep babbling.
Finkelstein is utterly wrong. The man is barmy. Jews in this country are marrying goyim in ever increasing numbers. Does that suggest to you any sort of deep-seated hatred?
You write you are ‘chilled’ by F’s words. More like hopped-up with excitement, it seems to me, at having spotted the Stormfront’s favourite Jew penning yet another set of words which encourage their deep-seated pathologies.
You folks should seek help. Normy first.
mcohen was indeed being witty there. The only way this idiotic piece might be dealt with.
Before you start lecturing others about their lack of wit, or whatever else, you ought to take an honest look at your own endowments. And the word is erudition; something you strive rather just that bit too much to give an impression of, with the copious copy and paste scholastics. Not quite the priest and not quite the novitiate.
I may as well tell you; you also appear constantly bitter about life. Care to share the tales of depredation and ill-fortune arranged by Jews? You know, that handy little universal scapegoat? At some level, you must be rather grateful to us for standing in as the ever reliable psychological crutch for your own shortcomings.
The sailor’s repair of the antenna allowed Liberty’s crew to take advantage of weaknesses in the jamming.
The Six Day War began on June 5, 1967. Israel launched the war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan with what could correctly called a “sneak attack,†although it is never referred to that way here. In the vocabulary of imperialism, there was one “sneak attack†in history, that was, of course, when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941.
I can see how you could get riled by NF but I think you do him an injustice in underrating the care he takes. Specifically his hatred of the goyim theory was tentative and you seem to forget that it related to events of 50 years ago and was about Israeli Jews.
Remember that even the disinterested John Derbyshire had identifoed a small minority of American Jews still set in their attitudes to goyim by the Cossacks of the 1880s.
Thank you. I was basically trying to do what a lawyer might do with a client full of grandiosity, stating his opinions as if they were important certainties all should understand, by just testing his ability to get to grips with the detail of some of the simpler less contentious facts.
ANON:
In a 2009 Commentary symposium, Michael Medved stated that for most American Jews, the core of their Jewish identity isn’t solidarity with Israel; it’s rejection of Christianity!
Indeed, for good reason most people like it because of what he’s laughing at.
And yes, I spread it around. So what?
Only Liars Want Censorship
The ‘6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
http://codoh.com
No name calling, level playing field debate here:
http://forum.codoh.com
anon
you miss the point.who are they.what have they achieved in life.since when is there opinion important.
prime minister,ambassador,billionaire,ceo ,world class surgeon,general,electrician ….these people might have something useful to say.worth listening to.
finkelstein,shamir and company…..before internet probably the dark lords ass scratcher.on sabbath only.Baruch tuchus scratcher.the order of…..BTS
Damn!. How fortunate it is, I have to reflect yet again, that I am one of the idle rich who can pretend there is nothing better to do than follow up an interesting lead – gleaming like a needle in a hay stack (or better, despite the proximity to fortuitous, gratuitous pun. a pearl before swine) – which has emerged from the Drang and dross of a UR thread.
I shall be sending a link to that Commentary seminar to a number of friends, including a rabbi I remember once suggesting a young person who might well be groomed as a conservative candidate – admittedly in one of the countries where liberal doesn’t mean left.
Point taken.
However, that also may apply, for example, to a woman rabbi of Reform Judaism in Noo Yawk.
The true ultra-Orthodox would never approve of her. So, they are a unique group, AFAIK, mainly in the state they oppose, but also in Iran, I suppose other places.
My reply was overly sharp, you do, as always, make many good points, but also wrong on many in my opinion.
I am tired by work, so stopping here for now.
That statement could easily be seen as derogatory towards a good Jew. Are you an anti-Semite, or sumthin?
I guess it’s only the goyim that have to avoid the smear, eh?
I must have some “Jewish” genes then. Maybe I should change my handle to “Kvetch.”Anyway, that’s my problem, not yours, and why is it relevant to this discussion?
Hey, just fuggeddaboudit; the new universal scapegoat is now Muslims, or have you been living under the rock where you hide your shekels?
As for mcohen, despite his witlessness, does he really need you to defend him?
And the object is to communicate. I guess you figured out what I meant, so I guess I can use “erudicity” with effect, and I have nothing to be concerned about unless I feel like filling my shorts over your sappy criticism, which I doubt will ever happen.
Keep ’em coming; it’s all amusing. And good for the “bitterness.” Yuck, yuck, yuck!
The “Allies” pulled a sneak attack on neutral Persia (Iran) 3 months prior to the attack on Pearl, and one year prior to it the Brits pulled one at Taranto, and smashed the Italian navy there.
The Brits also did that to the French fleet at Attack on Mers-el-Kébir about a year prior to the attack on Pearl.
There are probably other examples as well.
I concede your broader point and should stop getting annoyed.
NF has this habit of overreaching precisely up to a distance where he gets called a polemicist, a soulful one at that, mind you, inserting just that bit of careful tentativeness to avoid getting branded the wild-eyed loon. He’s made a career out of it.
Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead.
That is what got me. It paints Jews (I’m not fooled by any distinctions he sleights in) as an eternal hive mind driven by blood-lust. Just look at what S2C wrote following NF’s narrative!
JD’s experience with a minority of American Jews is valid. I can attest to the existence of this very small minority. But they are passing with each day.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/
Hahaaaa
[I must have some “Jewish†genes then. Maybe I should change my handle to “Kvetch.â€Anyway, that’s my problem, not yours, and why is it relevant to this discussion?]
Quite confident you don’t have any Jewish genes. You may use Kvetch if you wish, but I’d suggest Schnorrer. For someone whose only “obect is to communicate“, it shouldn’t escape you, the effect of your general disposition: it screams “fuck the world“. Incessantly.
D0es anyone have any idea what he’s actually saying?
Schwarzkopf?
Sounds like a lot of projection spewing from the “scapegoat” crowd. Tsk, tsk.
Anyway, so what? You some kind of snowflake er sumpin? Also, if you read any of your prophets, “fuck the world” can be a G-d like attitude. I think the poor dude fucked up when he created humans, and he did so numerous times afterward by thinking that we would reform if given another chance, again and again. Only someone with at least two functioning neurons somewhere would understand that tho. Maybe that’s why lots of Zionists seem to have given up on the dude, but the “leadership” still seems to be a bunch of lying, greedy, murderous, paranoid wretches, just like “olden times.”
Furthermore, what makes you think UR exists for you to vent your frustration with your world by initiating personal attacks on fellow commenters? Or that anyone comes here to read such garbage?
But then, if you read the likes of Marx and Lenin and other simple minded commies, you’ll see that they were into that sort of malicious drivel as well.
I may be a “schnorrer,” but I sure do get lot of attention from you , and besides your comments do ease any bitterness I may harbor , so thanks!
PS: In the future, try to put some substance in your comments; I think it’d be less entertaining, but much appreciated all around, nonetheless.
FDR deliberately provoked the attack, through his oil boycott, and knew accurately the hour when Japan would strike.
Harry Elmer Barnes, ed., ‘Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, A critical examination of the foreign policy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and its aftermath’, Caldwell, Idaho, 1953
The word is “object”…
Rocked the firmaments your wretchedness? My object was to draw all your bile to the surface. Even G’d caught a bit of it.
You are welcome.
He also had been waging financial war on Japan before that, such as freezing assets in July, 1941, and closing the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping earlier that year. Besides oil, he embargoed other necessities such as iron and rubber.
Beyond that he and elements of his admin waged an increasingly nasty diplomatic war by making outrageous demands on the Japanese and snubbing and humiliating them whenever possible. He also began supporting the Chinese when they were at war with Japan.
Your Barnes reference is top notch.
Jyles, thank you for your contributions here. They are consistently informative.
In case you or others are not aware, Ron Unz has provided another superb site for the interested, and it can be positively addicting.
Tons of info online and free, courtesy of RU!
http://www.unz.org/Pub/
Here’s a link (again courtesy of Ron Unz) to another good WW2 source.:
The Origins of the Second World War (1961) by A.J.P. Taylor – BORROW/READ
http://www.unz.org/Pub/TaylorAJP-1961?View=OL_1
Note:There is a lot there by A.J. Nock and Mencken, both of whom I bet you could appreciate in case you’re not familiar with them.
Hes asked at first how many days hes worked in his life. He responds with “6”. He then tells a story about how he worked at a restaurant and was told to clean some pans. He takes them to the beach and soaks them overnight. But he doesnt realize that there are tides and they are lost. Hes then ordered to buy new pans, he takes the money and splits.
Its on youtube with real subtitles. I was hoping it would be actually something funny, but that guy just exemplifies all the negative stereotypes associated with mexicans.
I dont have a problem. In fact, i support all discussions. I dont know if what your saying is true or not, but that doesnt matter. No topic should be off limits to discussion or investigation. Period. If a subject or event is not allowed to be talked about, chances are it probably has several falsehoods embedded into its narrative.
Regardless if you beleive in the holocaust or not, anyone anywhere should be able to openly discuss the finer details and not have to worry about being labeled an anti-semite because there are several inconsistencies in the official narrative.
So keep it up. Spread the word and hopefully it sparks enough interest in the subject that it can be talked about without the shadow of jews descending upon it like vultures smelling dinner getting ripe in the desert sun.
Sounds to me like American politicians are some of the most petty statesmen ever, and have been that way for over a century. Its rather sad, knowing this. You lose a lot of respect for your country when the realisation sinks in…..
What the hell is he laughing about?
I’ve come to a similar conclusion. Even some of them have, see Beveridge, v.i..
It’s especially loathsome to discover that they eagerly and repeatedly sacrifice our blood and treasure for their dastradly whims.
Even the would be Lincoln hagiographer, and US hyper imperialist, the flag waving US Senator, Albert J. Beveridge, was shocked at what he found when he began researching his boyhood hero, Lincoln. Most of what he “knew†was campaign rhetoric and outright fabrication.
Thanks, well said.
Everyone but you.
From the link: Believing in Jesus, however, is enough to place one beyond the pale: 60% of U.S. Jews say a person cannot be Jewish if he or she believes Jesus was the messiah.
What does it say about a people who hate the greatest thing that they produced?
Clearly Jesus created the greatest most benign philosophy for living in all of human history.
Clearly the objectionable part of the Christian religion is the part rooted in Judaism. Clearly Judaism is baggage for the philosophical adherents of Jesus.
Clearly Jesus thought of himself as a religious Jew. When Jews hate religious Jesus, they are hating his religious Jewness.
Jews who are not religious and are secular, also hate Jesus. Jewness is not only about a god religion – but it is primarily about tribe. Being a Jew is a biological test – not a test of faith.
“Christ†is a European name. Jesus became European and universal and neighborly – and Jews hate that.
There are so many different Jew sects – Jew culture has a tendency to implode – is hate for Jesus, now the main thing that binds them. How very very sick, how sad.
So what’s he saying?
It says precisely nothing about hate and everything about belief. If a person believes in Jesus, then he’s Christian, not Jewish.
Do you need a Venn diagram?
“The word is “objectâ€â€¦â€
That’s rich coming from you jacues/jacques. Correcting Shama on typos, that’s where you’ve fallen?
Still, we can all be thankful you don’t drag another irrelevant classical quote into your compostual remarks. It’s obvious you’ve not read any classics (reading meaning something more than cutting and pasting).
But, sure as shootin, there’s no doubt you’ve immersed yourself in Harry Elmer Barnes! No surprise there. ‘Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Führer’ ring a bell?. Harry was certainly a want-to-be dachshund polishing table legs with his nonsense.
There’s just one question jacues/jacques. How did nasty FDR get saintly Dolf to declare war on the USA 11 Dec ‘41? We’d all like to know.
Many other questions come to mind (did FDR make Dolf forget winter coats am osten in ‘41? Did FDR goad Dolf into ordering the destruction of Germany in ‘45? Etc). Doubtless you know all the true history. Let it out! Surely jilles will help!
Many tell me I’m crazy to have faith in you jacues/jacques. Have to be honest. Somehow I doubt you’ll be able to spin a rational account. Surprise me (us), please.
Minor issue. Hate bringing this up, but scourging posters for a typo makes me sensitive to your best interest. Your #66 reply is to “Jyles.†His screen name is “jilles dykstra.†Jyles vs. jilles?
Typo? What gives, jacues/jacques? Is this, as Yogi would, say déjà vu all over again? You – being French – know what that means of course. Give us clue.
For the archive:
https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/who-got-us-into-these-endless-wars/#comment-1526974
Incitatus #68 12aug16 “btw shouldn’t ‘Jacues’ be spelled ‘Jacques’?”
Jacues Sheete reply #83 13aug16 “At one time it was, but your mention of it is as irrelevant as it is petty. Anyway it’s about time you became aware that it’s pretty common for folks to vary things a little. ”
Is Norman suggesting that a great military victory did not actually happen the way everyone thinks it happened? This is unprecedented.
I have the mentioned book by Taylor.
But anyone who followed in detail the German campaign into Poland, the occupation of Norway, the attack on France, the occupation of Greece and N Africa, as well as the attack on Russia, knows that none of these were well prepared.
Hitler overplayed with his attack on Poland, deliberately provoked by Poland after the guarantee of March 1939, thereafter he no longer was in control.
How badly German war preparations were is demonstrated admirably by the fact that just in 1944 German war production was the highest.
François de Wendel, a friend of the French Rothschildt, states that ‘Hitler’s big mistake was to underestimate the power of international jewry’.
Jean-Noël Jeanneney, ‘Francois de Wendel en République, L’Argent et le Pouvoir 1914-1940, Paris 1976
The attack on France, bluff and French bungling
Heinz Guderian, ‘Panzer Leader’, London 2000, 1952
A. Goutard, ‘1940 La Guerre des Occasions Perdues’, Paris 1956
The attack on Russia, defence:
Bogdan Musial, ‘Kampfplatz Deutschland, Stalins Kriegspläne gegen den Westen’, Berlin 2008
There of course is much more:
Frederick W. Marks III, ‘Wind over Sand, The diplomacy of Franklin Roosevelt’, 1988 Athens Georgia
Charles A. Beard, ‘American Foreign Policy in the Making, 1932 – 1940, A study in responsibilities’, New Haven, 1946
John T. Flynn, ´The Roosevelt Myth, A critical account of the New Deal and its creator’, New York 1948, 1949
Frans Kurowski, ‘Der Thomas E. Mahl, ‘Desperate deception, British covert operations in the United States 1939-44’, Dulles, Virginia, 1998
Bruce Allen Murphy, ‘The Brandeis/Frankfurter Connection, The Secret Political Activities of Two Supreme Court Justices’, New York, 1983
Dirk Bavendamm, ‘Roosevelt’s Krieg 1937-45, und das Rätsel von Pearl Harbor’, München, 1993
Hi Incitatus:
Game, Set and Match, I’d say!
Best
The cucking on this site is beyond imagination . While Muslims are grooming and pimping thousands of white Christian girls ages 12 and up all over England , while muslims kidnap white Christian children and degrade and urinate on them in Utah and other states that take refugees , while Muslims are flooding Europe , while Muslims rape white Christian girls in the streets of Germany , while they take over Europe with generous welfare subsidies to have dozens of children and White European women have zero children these cucks actually spend their time cucking for Muslims in Israel . They were silent when Turkey invaded and occupied Europe and created a base in Cyprus which still exists to this day . Then Turkey flooded Europe with Muslims who are quickly taking over Western Europe but still the majority of their energy goes to ensuring that the Muslims living in Israel are treated up to their exacting standards while watching their own people become exterminated in Europe at the hands of Muslims. Cucking nonpareil ………………
There are 2 groups of Jews that are opposed to the state of Israel on religious grounds :
Neturei Karta : 5,000 members of this group worldwide .
Satmar : 100,000 members worldwide. There is a split in Satmar so only about half are against the jewish state on religious grounds.
There are estimated to be 16 million Jews in the world. This 55,00 are a vanishingly small proportion of Jews . Orthodox Jews number 3 million so even among them the percentage of anti Israel jews is very small .
Many people would argue that Satmar and Neturei Karta are not orthodox jews as they ignore much of the Torah themselves , just different parts than non orthodox Jews ignore. People see them in their funny garb and assume that they are religious but Neteuri Karta members dress in gold and jeweled robes , fur hats and expensive accoutrements . hardly the modest and humble dress required of them . In fact their dress has zero to do with Judaism and is in fact copying the styles of 17thh century polish nobility.
you’re missing the point
the point is that Muslims (nor anyone else in transformative numbers) belong in the West. All peoples are entitled to self-determination. The people of Europa, the people of Palestine, the people of Syria and the Jewish people.
the problem is that for some Jewish people, they don’t agree. They don’t agree that all people’s are entitled to self-determination. They demand that Europa be invaded and overrun with rapists and diversity of every kind. And they also demand out of the other side of their faces that Israel be allowed to ethically cleanse the Arabs in Palestine from their lands. You see?
That is the problem. The lying, duplicitous, hypocritical bullshit that emanates out of the rancid id of the Zionist.
And they’d be laughed at, at best, except that Jews own the Federal Reserve Bank! And that gives them the power to seek both the destruction of Europe and N. America, as you point out, and the genocide and ethnic cleansing that is causing so many wars and atrocities the world over.
This is all quite elementary for anyone that’s been paying attention, but occasionally it deserves to be repeated in the face of lies and distortions.
Nothing to do with Jews. The invaders are Muslims . The rapists are Muslims .The facilitators are Turkish Muslims and Italian Christians. The Turkish government facilitates the land route and the Italian military facilitates the sea route.
The Israel / Palestinian conflict is a minor one concerning a land dispute of 2,000 square miles and the death of 20,000 Palestinians. The major ethnic cleansing has occurred in Sudan : 700,000 killed and over a million ethnically cleansed and hundreds of thousands raped and occupation of over 100,000 square miles. Indonesian occupation of Papua with over half a million killed and over 130,000 square miles occupied and ethnic cleansing in the form of trans migrasi in the millions. You will lose Europe but not because of Jews. Because while you are obsessing of Jewish boogy men , Muslims will overrun your lands and steal and rape your women and children. Enjoy…………
bullshit
this isn’t a community college, everyone here has the sophistication to know that the entire ‘diversity’ genocide being perpetrated upon the West has ‘Jewish’ written all over it. Duh.
what a lying POS you are
it is the conflict that br0ught the US into the first world war, which guaranteed the second, and for which the world will fight the third.
that is hardly what anyone with a shred of brains or integrity would call a minor conflict
the main concern we all need to have right now is with getting the Jewish supremacist Zionists out of the Golan Heights, because that is ground zero for the war on Syria and the Russian conflict. They need to get the fuck out of there right now, and Trump and the rest of the moral world needs to demand this as of yesterday. Fuck Genie Energy and Bibi and Dick Cheney and all the other rats that are hoping to make a killing selling Syria’s oil.
At least I’m sure you’ll agree with that!
Muslim Turkey facilitates military age Muslim men from Syria , Pakistan , Afghanistan , Iraq to flow over their border into Europe and this is the fault of Jews and not Muslims . Muslim Turkey invaded and occupied European land : Cyprus and this is the fault of Jews . Said Muslim invaders occupy western Europe , rape the women and children at will and its the fault of Jews. Is it even possible for you to Cuck harder for Muslims ?
The lies never stop . But I think you are so obsessed that you may believe your lies.
Israel did not exist in the First world war .Israel did not exist in the second world war . In between 1948 and 1967 the sacred Palestinian land was called Jordan and no one was calling for a separate state to be carved out of Jordan . Jordan occupies 78% of Palestine . Furthermore the Jordanian ruling class ” Hashemites” have absolutely no claim to the land . They are a minority in their own kingdom. Hashemites are from Mecca , KSA . They used to rule KSA and were deposed by the Saud family. UK who administered Palestine gave these Hashemite Saudis the country of Jordan on a platter.
Yes surely , Golan Heights is the humanitarian crises of our day . Surely these statistics are just AngloZionist lies !!!!!!!!!!
Golan Heights : 500 Square miles : Casualties 2300
Occupied Papua : 138,000 Square miles : Casualties 500,000 +
Occupied Western Sahara : 103,000 Square miles : Casualties 40,000 +
Occupied Darfur :190,000 Square miles : Casualties 700,000 +
Anyway keep cucking and D-riding as hard as possible for Muslims. It only serves to make you weaker ,Muslims weaker and Al Yahudi stronger !!!!!!!!!!!!
You might be the ” King of Cucks” . Whining and obsessing over Jews while Europe disappears forever at the hands of Muslims.
As you well know, being in the employ of the MFA, it’s the fault of organized Jewry. Who drew up the plan to remake the ME by draining the swamp to remove those autocratic rulers who could not be convinced to abandon the Pals in their pitiful efforts to resist the brutal occupation? Didn’t PNAC (cofounded by William Kristol and Robert Kaganovich) provide the blueprint in A Clean Break? Aren’t they the ones who said “faster please” after they pushed for the invasion of Iraq? Didn’t they push to take out 7 Muslim countries in 5 years? Hasn’t the phony GWOT resulted in the spilling of gallons of blood and the spending of trillions of dollars?
And you’re here trying to explain to The Dumb Goyim who their true enemy is? And you try coming across as having The Dumb Goyim’s best interests at heart?
You guys must really think Goyim are dumber than cattle!
A conspiracy inspired word salad. Up the Xanax stat , throw in some prozac and pad those walls. Its gonna be a doozy.
Tl/dr :
Muslims don’t have agency. Even when its 100% Muslims from start to finish you see an invisible Jewish hand pulling the strings. Bill Kristol GTFO lololololol. He rivals your cucking abilities . But you are top notch .
Another bit of evidence that they were not well prepared is this, if true.:
Here’s another link with a similar message.
http://lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/index.html
When Pat Buchanan still wrote well, he wrote this classic.:
http://buchanan.org/blog/did-hitler-want-war-2068
—
OTOH — take it easy on Sam “Easily amused” Shama and the horse he rode in on; Jews are confronting an extremely unpleasant situation: Trump has proposed shaving $3 million from the $57million holocaust museum budget. It’s a shoah!
$3 million = .0000789 — about one week’s worth –of the $3.8 billion USA forks over every year to the bestest friend (who ever wanted express their hatred for Americans by killing them).
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/5584ba80-8eed-316e-a841-54ec0241a893/ss_%243m-cut-to-holocaust-museum.html
nb check out the comments — Norman Finkelstein cloned multiple times
I propose a pity party for poor Jews who are faced with the mere thought of foregoing this loot.
And a second pity party (no laughing!!) for pathetic Sam the Tennis dude, er, dud.
my mistake:
$3 million is not “one week’s worth” — 7 days — of the $3.8 billion US taxpayers shell out to subsidize Israel; it’s 7 hour’s worth.
About the same number of hours Israel spent attacking and killing US sailors on the Liberty.
The Unz.com coterie of Jew hating cuckoos are fighting the last war while Islam slowly devours Europe. Delivery from sin and evil is easier than delivery from rigidized stupidity.
“ACT FOR AMERICA” REALLY ACTS FOR ISRAEL
Art, you have to see this. “Alt-Right” controlled opposition by Mossad.
Brigitte Gabriel = MOSSAD Asset.
“March against Sharia,” Act for America or Israel ?
My impression is that NF adheres to higher standards than Israel Shamir, not least of scholarship and thoroughness but the strain and time pressures of being a minority polemicist and scholar at the same time would be likely to lead to his handing a few gotchas to the swarming majority.
Oh dear, how long did that struggle last (the calculation i.e, followed by furrowed brows, veins popping on the forehead etc)? I have a suggestion for you: don’t twist yourself in knots over these things. Even I felt embarrassed imagining your predicament.
The tennis analogy made you cross? Good heavens, man; issues there, some pitifully obvious, others a bit deeper, I suppose.
Let’s deal with the superficial one first. Tennis, a sore point with you, can only be remedied through long hours of practice. You don’t have a serve and volley game, I suspect. Why do I say that? Your posts. Serve and volley requires precision and strength. Enough said. But don’t be discouraged, five years of practice ought to get you past the local senior league qualifying rounds. You agree? Carry on then.
Now for deeper ones. Well, one could write volumes, but really that won’t do at all, to impose on the generosity of our host. Thus, I shall only hint. Germania. Eats away the little gray cells.
Cheers
iow, you got nuthin.
Typical Jew smoke and mirrors. The Liberty is attacked in clear daylight and you talk about antennas. As if somehow the antenna story IS the salient point. This of course shows the story bothers you greatly when you try to change the subject.
Hi RobinG,
“The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.†― Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
AEI – Jew —- ACLU – Jew. There are hundreds more.
The Jews love to hide their evil tribal activities behind the word “American.”
There is nothing more diabolical and dishonest than a Jew wordsmith.
If you want to mislead someone, get a Jew.
Words are bullets to Jews. They use then to mow down their opposition (which means everyone, all of humanity).
Peace — Art
The Unz.com coterie of Jew hating cuckoos are fighting the last war while Islam slowly devours Europe. Delivery from sin and evil is easier than delivery from rigidized stupidity.
Clyde,
Gee – standard hasbara TROLL stuff – boring!
Time for you to get a life.
Peace — Art
p.s. Not being a Jew is fun – try it!
You know that you win the vituperation prize here at Unz so smile! Your elevator is headed down to the bottom with no stops, where you will finally meet up with your uncle Adolf, George Rockwell and the homos who ran the Third Reich.
Your writing style imitates a third grader…
Now, contrast this Zionist asset & these ‘alt.right’ useful idiots with the reality in Lebanon… in Syria… at any rate, it is ZUSA/Israel & its allies and client states that are destroying Christianity in the M.E.
The problem for M.E Christians are the Salafist/Wahhabi extremists supported by ZUSA & friends.
Christian Singer Honors Hezbollah in Stunning 2013 Concert Performance
Why Arab Christians Support Hezbollah
You know that you win the vituperation prize here at Unz so smile!
… … …
Your writing style imitates a third grader
Definition of vituperation. — sustained and bitter railing and condemnation
What you view as “vituperation†– are stark truths that you cannot acknowledge and refuse to see.
Jesus said “forgive them father for they know not what they do.â€
When it comes to truth – your culture has stripped you of virtue.
You are forgiven.
Peace — Art
p.s. My writing skills are third grade – but my facts are world class.
** because they are “right†in the eyes of their diety **
I’m no theologian but don’t Christians believe in the doctrine of original sin? We’re all sinners till saved from damnation (after death) by faith in Christ. We sin but our sins are forgiven if we accept Jesus but we still have to live moral lives. The Ten Commandments are there to guide Christians on right living. They assume that humans need guiding. If not, why bother with commandments?
Nothing in the Christian faith involves automatic affirmation of the believer as “right.” Calvinists come closest to the frame of mind but even they have no notarized statement from Anyone that they happen to be one of the elect. One of the heresies even among the Calvinists was that “Christian liberty gave one license to ignore Scriptural teaching.” (Wikipedia, Antinomian Controversy.) But the operative word there is “heresy.” Calvinists hoped that worldly success was sort of a divine hint that they were one of the chosen but no one knew for sure.
Secular leftists thought they were sufficiently “right” to enable them to murder millions.
Where do you get this stuff?
** facilitators are Turkish Muslims and Italian Christians **
You’re right about the moronic Italians, whether Christians or not. Germans deserve top billing for being morons too, of course. Turks are not facilitators. They just point west and the European Union makes sure the borders are open and travel is unimpeded. The British help generate refugees in Syria (a small part of the overall picture of predatory migration) but, again, that’s not the problem. Migrant flow can be stopped everywhere in Europe no later than 5:00 p.m. today if the Europeans decided to do that.
How do you assess Barbara Lerner Specter? Is she an aberration? She talks of the leading role that Jews will play in making Europe “multicultural” and less “monolithic.” What does she mean by “monolithic”?
Daddy what were you doing when the European Caliphate was in its infancy and could still be stopped ?
Do you mean when millions of military age Muslim men were crossing into Europe disguised as refugees and raping our women , kidnapping and pimping out our daughters and slaughtering native Europeans in constant terror attacks ??
Yes daddy , that’s what I mean .
I was sharing Barbara Lerner Specters video clips on Unz and Heartiste. I did my part ,son.
Who was Barbara Lerner Specter daddy ?? The president of the EU ?? The general of the United Nations ?
No , she was a private citizen and she had a 12 minute interview on youtube where she said questionable things.
I don’t understand what this has to do with millions of military age Muslim men taking over Europe and establishing a Caliphate
Well son , that video really put the hook in us
I don’t understand Daddy , But anyway did you guys kill her or something ?
No she lived in luxury until she died peacefully in her sleep at 98 years old
You should have seen that video , son, it was like 12 minutes of really questionable material , delivered by an irrelevant old woman who lived in Sweden. . Like I said , it really put the hook in us…………..
…it showed us all in the dying (murdered) Western world that when it came to some Jews; Hitler was right. And if left up to their druthers, they’d use their ill-gotten lucre to subvert our governments and flood our lands with Muslims (and everyone else).
We realized that if we were to survive, that we’d have to take on the Jews like Specter and expose their treachery if our nations were to have a future for you son.
The Good Art. The Bad Art/
You are behaving like an actual human here but you still need your momma to come back and wash your mouth out with some soap.
Good comment. Jewish malevolence to the goyim is not a trivial issue and has created countless problems for Western Civilization.
But what is wrong with our leaders and ourselves that we have allowed this to happen in the first place? WE are primarily responsible for the decline of our civilization.
Are we just mindless venal fools following the tribal pied pipers to the sea?
Unfortunately, for many of us, and most of our leaders, the answer is yes.
All Navy ships have HF antennas that can be used if all other communication means fail…
Anonymous coward!
Most wars are Jew-inspired behind the scenes! They’re the ones to be concerned with!
Ooh, way to get the ol’ twofer: Jews AND Communists!
coterie of Jew hating
We don’t hate Joobs. We hate assholes.
We hate shtetl gonifim like your boy Bibi who exploit Jews the way Al Capone exploited Italians.
On the Liberty, I recommend reading Amerika blog (which is Dissident-Right). I’ve linked this on my name.
I agree that the anti-Western mindset of the post-Holocaust 1967 Israeli brass and their kids on the planes and ships had a part to play in the tragedy. But there was also just plain incompetence. And one shouldn’t let that oaf Lyndon ‘Look At My’ Johnson off the hook, especially not here on Unz.com.
I mean, even assuming that Israel is full of shayatin, the Shared Incompetence theory certainly works better than
1. Be in a vulnerable position in the Near East in need of not antagonising major world powers
2. Shoot down a major American ship
3. …?
4. The Messiah cometh!!
I was in the army in 1967 and remember the seven day war .i also noticed the pull to get us out of viet nam and set the countries aim of us going to the mid east.the uniform started to go desert colors etc.what caps this off for me is bob Dylan has not written one song protesting the wars in the mid east or Joan b .Something to think about.
“Why hasn’t there been another revolution in the USA since 1776?”
“Because there is no American Embassy in the USA.”
– via Moldbug
Yes, we have waged war for 220 years of our existence. George Washington and his band of volunteers caused England to sue for peace but, by then it was too late. Hamilton was here and, waiting, with his copies of the Bank of London’s business model and, the charter. It was over before it started. What can you say? We never stood a chance.
To Norman Finkelstein: Do you agree that your parents, uncles, grandparents, people’s victimhood is just another fraud? Your Mother’s?
If not, why are you provoking these comments? Think and consider if it is you (among others) suggesting that it is just another fraud. You think you are just honest, but people lacks your verbal skill to make a fine grained analysis of what you are saying.
That was the best “laughing mexican” subtitles i have seen in a while. thnx
Agreed, well said.
the second vid wont play.. My sister in faith in the first vid is one of my fav ME singers tbh.
I have been saying this since 1991, when I realized it all was a fraud
amazing, and true
I admire Norman a lot. His honesty and his insistence on saying what is so have cost him a lot. When I wrote to him and asked how I could support him he asked not for a donation (which I would have happily given without hesitation) but only that I buy one of his books, a transaction in which I gained much more than he.
But the comment threads whenever the words jew or Israel are mentioned are so puerile and idiotic as to shame the most resolute among us.
Finklestein is a true degenerate …. this is the line that he repeats at every opportunity, including this interview …
without a shred of evidence, he is lording this preposterous hoax over the entire world. He is a 100% total fraud, a truly disgusting person. He was born, btw, in 1953.
Finklestein provides a few strings to pull on and it will unravel all we now ‘know’; including the Holocaust itself. As more information bubbles up from the ground or suddenly appears, the history of WWII will undergo another revision. 1939 Poland, mindful of the 1920 Bolshevik Invasion must have seen the Red Army assembling on their border. Hitler saw the same thing and decided to strike first. Deception, all wars are conducted in deception. So the ‘history’ continues the deception, of course. Poland probably did ‘let the Germans in’ and Polish Jews probably saw the invading Russian Revolutionaries as ‘liberators’. The Communist/Bolshevik Russian Revolutionaries’ plan for world domination had to go through Europe, destroying Catholic founded Western Civilization and Love. WWI and WWII, I am convinced were all about destroying Eastern Christian Russia and Catholic Europe. Further, this monstrous genocidal plan for satanic domination over humanity could not have been possible without the Federal Reserve Bank.
Finkelstein’s favorite line, see vid below… and an preposterous lie. He was born in 1953 – and he does not of course deign to offer a shred of evidence that anyone anywhere was ‘exterminated’. He is a arrogant degenerate liar of the worse sort.
Tremendous interview.
Norman Finkelstein given the opportunity to display both his knowledge and humanity, both of which are impressive.
I like Finkelstein, his openness and unorthodox take on things.
On the USS Liberty incident during the 1967 War, I’ve long been curious, and I’m not sure we still know. LBJ ‘s behavior is a deep mystery.
Readers may enjoy:
https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2018/08/16/john-chuckman-comment-a-uss-liberty-survivor-also-illegally-arrested-in-israels-latest-piracy-on-the-high-seas-tells-his-story-the-great-and-enduring-mystery-of-israels-1967-attack-on-an-americ/
https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/john-chuckman-comment-israels-1967-attack-on-intelligence-ship-u-s-s-liberty-during-its-six-day-war-of-conquest-the-only-mystery-has-always-been-lyndon-johnsons-bizarre-reaction-what-he-crea/
https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/john-chuckman-comment-israel-attacking-the-uss-liberty-in-the-six-day-war-and-the-possible-secret-role-of-lyndon-johnson/
https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2018/01/22/john-chuckman-comment-writer-calls-lyndon-johnson-a-political-hero-in-fact-he-was-the-most-demonic-man-ever-in-the-oval-office-despite-lots-of-competition/
Lots of very interesting takes.
Personally, I believe that the creation of Israel was a strategic mistake and a manifestation of hubris from zionists and some rabbis.
“Lets put a whole lot of Jews in a small, weak country and pray that one superpower will always support us unconditionally”
I dont think Volodia would do it, but next Brejnev could very well decide that a pre-emptive strike is the only way to stop US aggression once and for all, and then how much of the Plesetsk grid Israel would take? 7%?
Look, look over there, it’s ‘the {wicked} Jews’.
Don’t look here at the US ‘plutocrats’ and the M.I.C., there is nothing to see!
Regarding boundries of the 2 states, the sole internationally recognized borders remain those described in UNR 181.
Plenty of parties still mention this.
As I read this long piece I started having more and more doubts about it. When I got to the part about the USS Liberty, there was no longer any doubt in my mind.
This fellow is a professional bull-shitter, and though I don’t understand his motives, there were just enough plausible truths scattered around to make the lies palatable.
I’m surely glad that I don’t own any books by this person.
You mean De Paul.
This article has a number of photos that have 404’ed out, they’ve no longer visible.
They can be seen, and the whole article read, at the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170702074649/https://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/to-live-or-to-perish/
“Consumerism” is just a euphemism for capitalism as seen from the demand side. It is not a “movement,” but simply the natural impulse of human exchange realized as mutual economic gain. And what’s wrong with that? Would you prefer socialism? I wouldn’t.