back to article Core Python developer suspended for three months

The Python Steering Council has decided to suspend a core Python developer for three months for alleged Code of Conduct violations. Citing the recommendation of the Code of Conduct Working Group, Python developer Thomas Wouters revealed on behalf of the Steering Council that the unidentified developer was deemed to have …

  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Sad day

    This goes to show that Tim and others were right in their fears as to where this change in the bylaws would lead. I'm on the mailing list and read Tim's e-mails which were typically well-phrased and to the point. But, for years now, the PSF has been pushing "inclusion" above everything else: the very worst of well-intentioned West Coast liberalism. As always happens, this will probably lead to some kind of split and the detriment of the whole ecosystem.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: Sad day

      Agreed , Inclusion has become the new silver bullet which allows a company to constantly define new rules , which are almost impossible to adhere to and which ensure that the only result is complete division.

      It is basically a reciprocating means of ensuring societal collapse. Big groups get split into smaller groups, new rules are created and further division ensues, and infinitum.

      Eventually the snake has no other option than to eat it's own head.

      1. LionelB Silver badge

        Re: Sad day

        Ah for the good old days of racism, misogyny and bullying in the workplace. Golden times.

        1. Nightkiller

          Re: Sad day

          "Ah for the good old days of racism, misogyny and bullying in the workplace. Golden times."

          You mean, like, today? Finding a racist in every dictionary? Adding Misandry to balance things out? Using the HR department to do what you cannot be seen to be doing to preserve your status?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Sad day

          Here's the real secret that no one will tell you, are you listening?

          You see most of the sane people realise all this DEI stuff is utter nonsense are in their 50s, 99.9% have never so much as insulted a fly let alone anyone due to their race, religion, gender, ethnicity, personality 'cos we were brought up properly to respect people irrespective of their differences. You see I was brought up to learn about your personality, your hopes, dreams, opinions, not what SJW cause you found on TikTok last night and are now a bloody expert in it and who now thinks they will be saving the world tomorrow.

          You see most older generations of people simply play along with the delusions of a progressive DEI utopia that the extreme elements in society are craving, we simply pay it lip service 'cos we've all got pensions and investments 'cos we worked our arses off for the last 35+ years instead of arguing over unisex bathrooms and safe-space meditation rooms. We're going to bugger off in 5-10 years time and you lot can live out your wonderful inclusive dreamland without us and we won't care 'cos we'll be retired and out of it for good.

          So sure let's have one more DEI lecture from the HR dept, just for old time's sake, just telling us all one more time that every single one of us is just vile scum for simpy existing on the planet, 'cos we're already planning our exit and we're just biding our time.

          Oh and by the way, the birth rates are dropping, people can't afford housing and jobs are scarce, add to this that the global liberalist elites want everyone lazy, fat and stupid so they can be easily manipulated by social media posts to "eat zee.bugs" and "own nothing and be happy". Best of luck 'cos you're going to need it!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Sad day

            https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ar-AA1owKXH

            1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

              Re: Sad day

              Interesting read. Hopefully some of the cases being brought will make it through to the supreme court. If so it will be interesting to see the decision.

          2. m0rissette

            Re: Sad day

            What’s SJW?

            1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

              Re: Sad day

              Social Justice Warrior.

              I wonder why someone downvoted you.

              1. Mrs Spartacus

                Re: Sad day

                It was probably a SJW who was triggered into a red rage that there was someone out there in the real world who doesn't know about their pet project!

        3. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          I can't figure out whether to upvote or downvote you. The list of "offences" seem remakably similar to the bullying ones for the civil service with a bar so low a snake would go over it.

        4. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          Yeh because today is full of such genuine people.

          I mean there are absolutely no examples of people who give them titles and entitle themselves to obscene amounts of money because of their title.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Sad day

        I was trying to approach this with an open mind. The question of whether CoC was being implemented by either fascists or whiny little babies who have no sense of humor, balanced against trollish offensive posting of public comments, is likely to have tipped over in favor of the "accused" on this one.

        Sad because CoC's should not even have to exist, nor whiny baby activists who seem to want to write them way too much...

        1. CRConrad

          Por que no los dos?

          I was trying to approach this with an open mind. The question of whether CoC was being implemented by either fascists or whiny little babies who have no sense of humor...
          ...seems to be best answered by: Both.
        2. captain veg Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          The very notion of a Code of Conduct is an explicit admission that you're not employing the right kind of people. Good people don't need to be told how to behave.

          -A.

          1. EricB123 Silver badge

            Re: Sad day

            "Good people don't need to be told how to behave."

            Touche'

          2. garretmh

            Re: Sad day

            That’s the thing about Open Source though isn’t it? You *aren’t* employing the right people.

          3. richieadler

            Re: Sad day

            Certain communities (and countries are also communities) are so devoid of good people that allowing only Good People™ would keep them perennially empty.

            1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

              Re: Sad day

              Yeh because we all know examples of how companies never ignore the public while pretending they love the community and are open to contributions.

      3. Mrs Spartacus

        Re: Sad day

        Indeed. The use of the word "triggering" in their list of whines speaks volumes.

    2. JacobZ

      Re: Sad day

      Bollocks.

      Defending offensive behavior as "neurodivergent traits" is offensive, demeaning, and damaging to people who are neurodivergent, especially when the people being excused / excusing themselves very rarely have any diagnosis to support their claims. It's become the "go to" for assholes and dinosaurs to defend bad behavior.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Sad day

        You have just exemplified my case

        1. legendairy

          Re: Sad day

          They always do. The countdown clock on python has begun.

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Sad day

        neuro-di-what-the-FEEL???

        If you are referring to the calling of BRILLIANCE and GENIUS a "disorder" of some kind, sure. That is nearly always INAPPROPRIATE, by the (wannabe) shrink to have DONE so. One man's ADHD or Asperger's is another man's GENIUS and BRILLIANCE and of course, "emotional IQ" is for BABIES! So if Tim is really just your average geeky genius who happens to exhibit a few "I do not give a crap about your feelings" behaviors, is THIS what he's being criticized for? It makes me think even more that CoC's might be used by hypersensitive whiner activists who cannot deal with others accidentally "hurting their FEELINGS" without getting all fascist and tyrannical and CONTROLLING to over-compensate for their OWN pathetic isues...

        (good luck getting cool stuff invented without geniuses)

        1. LionelB Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          You've fallen for a common trope. Most people with conditions like Asperger's are not "brilliant" or "geniuses" - they're far more likely to be sad, frequently friendless individuals who struggle to lead a normal existence, which can make life hell both for themselves and their families. It's not like the movies - those are the exceptions. Conversely, I'll wager most "brilliant geniuses" are not "neurodivergent". Eccentric? Quite likely - but that's not the same thing.

          (I've a friend whose kid is quite severely autistic. If you come out with the "Oh, but I bet he's brilliant at XXX ..." she's likely to punch you in the face.)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Sad day

            > You've fallen for a common trope. Most people with conditions like Asperger's are not "brilliant" or "geniuses" - they're far more likely to be sad, frequently friendless individuals who struggle to lead a normal existence, which can make life hell both for themselves and their families

            I agree that most aren't brilliant but neither are most sad, etc. All the Aspergers types that I've worked with are perfectly capable of living a normal existence that they enjoy. It's only other people that think they're sad, presumably because they have different expectations.

            1. Not Yb Bronze badge

              Re: Sad day

              The ones that can work well with other people aren't the only ones that exist. Beware personal experience (all the ones I've worked with) leading to bias.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Sad day

                > The ones that can work well with other people aren't the only ones that exist. Beware personal experience (all the ones I've worked with) leading to bias.

                So you want to call me out on experience bias but you're happy with the sweeping generalisations made by the OP?

            2. heyrick Silver badge

              Re: Sad day

              "It's only other people that think they're sad, presumably because they have different expectations."

              I'm emotionally flat -tranquil fury and happy both look alike (often mistaken for "bored").

              I am perfectly happy by myself - I'm on my three week holiday right now. Looking forward to lots of time completely alone.

              No, I'm not sad. I'm happy lying in my hammock under an oak reading. Some people go to the beach and turn bright red. Some people don't. We're all different.

          2. Bibbit

            Re: Sad day

            The film “Rain Man” and the book “The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat” I do think planted the myth in popular culture that autism of whatever flavour was synonymous with being an (forgive the archaic phrase) “idiot savant”. My youngest brother is on a spectrum and had tourette’s and growing up this was not easy and no, he couldn’t count a bunch of matches on the floor with one glance or create fabulous art.

            1. richieadler

              Re: Sad day

              Agreed on "Rain Man", but a reading beyond cursory of any book by Oliver Sacks, including the one you quote, is the opposite of a factory of happy myths.

        2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          Hello Bob, haven't seen you here for ages. Still haven't quite figured out the caps lock key I see,

    3. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Sad day

      Sorry, I'm a West Coast type and by most definitions a Liberal. Please don't tar me with the same brush as 'that lot'.

      I have absolutely no idea what the transgressions were but the likely had nothing to do with the programming language called Python.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Sad day

        I, too, would not like to be tarred with the same brush as 'that lot' (whoever they are!).

        There are a whole hell of a lot of people living out here on the left coast, originating from virtually every population on Earth. Trying to tar us all with one brush on any given subject is not just foolhardy, it's insane.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Sad day

          Been a long time since I agreed with jake.

        2. FIA Silver badge

          Re: Sad day

          There are a whole hell of a lot of people living out here on the left coast, originating from virtually every population on Earth. Trying to tar us all with one brush on any given subject is not just foolhardy, it's insane.

          That's true once you get above a few couple of families; where ever you are.

          It's also a hard lesson for people to learn as we're so hard wired for tribalism.

          We'd all be better off if we did though.

          1. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Sad day

            > It's also a hard lesson for people to learn as we're so hard wired for tribalism.

            A good old-fashioned Alien Invasion would be something to unite the planetary population behind

      2. btrower

        Re: Sad day

        I'm with you. I'm a hard left socialist Canadian, from a feminist household and I think we should be kind to one another. However, I don't think that my sensibility should be forced on others, and some of the woke crap is irritating nonsense. If you cannot make a rational argument with facts and logic, I really don't think you should be in charge of other people's lives.

        Whatever allegedly 'woke' people have seized control of things, they look like the busybodies of old. Fuck 'em. Also, I'm ND and quite pleased with that.

    4. captain veg Silver badge

      Re: West Coast liberalism

      There is no coast anywhere that liberal means imposing your views on everyone else on pain of sanction.

      Being liberal literally means tolerating difference. It does not require recognising all differences as having equal worth.

      As a liberal I respect everybody's right to an opinion on various subjects. But fascists are still cunts.

      -A.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sad day

      Beginning to sound like the woke mind virus! Or the authoritarian instinct that seems to accompany it. The limitations on free speech, in general, are getting set in order to benefit the minority not the majority. Opposing "official" party lines seems these days to be regularly dealt with by citing some micro-aggression or supposed attack on diversity. Diversity of physical attributes good, diversity of thought bad is the mantra.

  2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

    As a species, we are going to have to accept that what we say is our responsability.

    The Internet has been, and still largely is, a haven for idiots mouthing off ignorance and hatred. And wokism is not helping.

    That has to stop.

    I say that regardless of whatever happened to that core developer. I don't know him, I didn't follow him, I'm unaware of the specifics.

    But, globally, people need to shut the fuck up.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

      Ironically, shutting Tim and others up is exactly what the CoC achieved.

      And it's worth looking Tim up: clever, erudite and friendly, and who even has a sorting algorithm named after him. He's one of the people who made Python what it is. Nowadays there's an increasingly committee feel about decisions with it apparently being as important to tick boxes as to solve real world problems.

      1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        -- Nowadays there's an increasingly committee feel about decisions with it apparently being as important to tick boxes as to solve real world problems. --

        I think you've just described the NHS

    2. LionelB Silver badge

      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

      Broadly agreed, just...

      > And wokism is not helping.

      Perhaps it might, depending on which definition is being used...

      Woke (adj.)

      1. African American slang (1980s; aspirational, motivational): Alert to social injustice

      2. Illiberal slang (2000s; derogatory): Perceives social injustice where there is none

      3. Reactionary slang (2010s; catch-all, insulting): Not reactionary; disagrees with my way of thinking

      It'd be helpful if people could be clear on which version they are deploying.

      1. Like a badger

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        "Broadly agreed, just...

        > And wokism is not helping.

        Perhaps it might, depending on which definition is being used..."

        Unfortunately, whichever definition is used or intended, it's pretty clear that we've got (across the internet but even within this thread) unhelpful polarisation between people who probably share mostly the same values, and who'd likely get along just fine in work, down the pub or in other social situations.

        The routine cat-calling with terms like SJW, woke, racist, fascist etc from both sides exacerbate differences and inflame opinions, and create then reinforce divisions that needn't exist. Normal people don't punch each other in the face for supporting a different political party, online there's always keyboard fist-fights breaking out. And those who are genuinely extreme, well, in the UK the recent pretty trivial riots showed that the extreme right are a tiny group with negligible support, more so when you account for those people who'll join any public disorder that's going rather than because they're behind some particular cause. The same's probably true of the Capitol rioters in the US.

        Short of an outright ban on all forms of social media, perhaps what's needed is prompt consequences for actions. Whilst the Reg might not agree, an example of this would be that a good few posters in this thread could do with a week's ban for using inflammatory language against other posters. This did used to happen, in the past I've been on the moderator's naughty step, hopefully I've learned my lesson.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. itzman

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          "The routine cat-calling with terms like SJW, woke, racist, fascist etc from both sides exacerbate differences and inflame opinions"

          This the point of language like that. It is the old Marxist Mindfuck trick of getting you to agree to something small and harmless and then using it to prove the world needs a Revolution and you are taught to hate.

          Real life is just Us, Marxism always declares its THEM and us, and THEY are beyond the pale. And usually the targets of the projection that WE place upon them

          So BLACK lives matter - an organisation that is by definition institutionally racist - declares that 'only whites (how racist is that?) are racist!.

          And so on.

          1. LionelB Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            BLM:

            What most people hear: Black lives matter too (because it sure seems that sometimes they really don't)

            What right-wing Culture War Warriors hear: Only black lives matter (Racist! Racist! They're oppressing us!)

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

              BLM: What I hear: Black lives matter. What I add inside: My white live also matters, but I'm a lot less likely in the UK or the USA to get into a situation where my white skin colour puts my life into danger, so I have little reason to shout loudly that "white lives matter". And I'm lucky that I dont have to shout it.

              1. unimaginative
                Flame

                Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                > BLM: What I hear: Black lives matter.

                BLM came about because American cops were shooting lots of black people. It copied by people in the UK.

                Police in the UK have shot a total of 10 people so far in the 2020s. https://www.inquest.org.uk/fatal-police-shootings That is considerably fewer than in the US in a single month. Even on a per capita basis it is not even remotely comparable.

                No one in the UK (reasonably) worries they will be killed by the police, except people who are actually carrying out an armed crime.

                So what I hear is "people think they are living in the US".

                > I'm a lot less likely in the UK or the USA to get into a situation where my white skin colour puts my life into danger

                In the UK people of any skin colour are not likely to find their skin colour puts their life in danger. The US has about twice as many (the exact numbers do not seem to be available) people killed by police than the UK has total murders. The murder rate and the homicide rate (murder plus legal killings such as in self-defence) is much lower.

                I am not white and I have rarely had a serious worry about being subject to violence, never to serious violence, and never been threatened with racially motivated violence.

                It makes no sense to lump very different countries together like this.History, culture, and present issues around race are entirely different.

                For more on what I think about this, read my blog post about how racism is a different thing in different countries.

                1. LionelB Silver badge

                  Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                  And yet the BLM movement clearly chimed strongly with many in the UK. We're just more polite - albeit considerably less lethal - with our racism over here*.

                  *We may also be more sardonic.

                  Nice blog post, though. As it happens, I was born and grew up in South Africa under the apartheid regime, before relocating to the UK in the late 70s.

                  > While there are undoubtedly racists, there are far, far fewer than in the 1980s: over my life I have seen a continual decline in racism.

                  I would have said that too, at least until a few weeks ago... now I'm really not so sure. Seems these things have a way of simmering beneath the surface.

                  1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

                    Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                    -- I would have said that too, at least until a few weeks ago... now I'm really not so sure. Seems these things have a way of simmering beneath the surface. --

                    I think that like many you are confusing racist with ethnicityist. I'm very happy with a multi-racial society not so much so with a multi-cultural one where I am expected to conform to someone else's culture.

                    1. LionelB Silver badge

                      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                      > I think that like many you are confusing racist with ethnicityist.

                      Perhaps I am. Then again, in practice race and ethnicity tend to go together, especially as regards immigrants. Not that racists (or "ethnicicists" ) bother with that distinction. Nor, I imagine, do their victims. In practice, race and ethnicity are both convenient pretexts for labelling people as "not one of us".

                      > I'm very happy with a multi-racial society not so much so with a multi-cultural one where I am expected to conform to someone else's culture. [My italics]

                      But of course you aren't - unless you are an immigrant of different ethnicity to that of the home country (i.e., most immigrants, with some exceptions).

                    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge
                      Mushroom

                      Re: confusing racist with ethnicityist

                      Oh for fuck's sake, can we stop inventing new subdivisions of the same problem ?

                      It's INTOLERANCE.

                      Is that not good enough ?

                2. tiggity Silver badge

                  Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                  @unimaginative

                  "No one in the UK (reasonably) worries they will be killed by the police, except people who are actually carrying out an armed crime."

                  .. Don't be so sure about that, quite a lot of people die shortly after interactions with UK police (without being shot)

                  https://www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-police-custody

                  .. Someone in contradictory position of having a couple of friends who are UK cops, but also regard the "never trust a copper" line as sensible advice

                3. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                  Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                  BLM was copied in Britain for the same reason it was copied in AU.

                  Unfortunately both countries are ful of pathetic people who havent a brain to be original in anyway. They dont do things because they are right but simply because they realise its "popular" to pretend this on social media.

              2. LionelB Silver badge

                Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                Or as this (slightly cutesy) cartoon put it.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                  Except that the statistics in the US show no bias towards killing unarmed black people and the number of deaths is pretty proportional to the rates of crimes committed by various groups. A young black man is far more likely to die at the hands of another young black man.

                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                    Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                    > Except that the statistics in the US show no bias towards killing unarmed black people

                    Is this overall, or killing of unarmed black (as opposed to other) people by police (of which there have, of course, been several high-profile cases, and which is specifically what sparked protests, BLM, etc.)? Could you possibly point us to the sources for these statistics?

                    > A young black man is far more likely to die at the hands of another young black man.

                    Does the same perhaps hold for young white men?

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                      "unarmed black (as opposed to other) people by police"

                      A very rare event. The notable cases being George Floyd who died of an overdose and Breonna Taylor who was caught in the crossfire as her boyfriend decided to shoot at the cops.

                      https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2023.307560

                      Only 4.5% of those killed by police were unarmed. A bit under 500 people in 2020. Compared to 45,000 gun homicides in the same year.

                      There is little question that the US police are effectively egos with badges and qualified immunity. Some seem to be thicker than 2 short planks and are in desperate need of anger management therapy and some serious training in communication and deescalation.

                      This is a truly horrific incident and the victim here was utterly totally 1000% innocent and the police officer should live out the rest of his days in a pain amplifier:

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez28s2VI1mQ

                      https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/2020-gun-deaths-in-the-us-4-28-2022-b.pdf

                      page 21, about a 5:1 disparity in young males.

                      https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7226a9.htm

                      You can see the over 10x disparity here overall.

                      A few years old:

                      https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

                      There is still a major disparity.

                      As a white male you are more likely to end your own life with a gun than be shot by someone else.

                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                        > https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2023.307560

                        > https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7226a9.htm

                        Thanks - interesting (and grim) reads; I'm not sure if they answer the question I was getting at, though: as an unarmed black person, are you more or less likely likely to be shot dead (or for that matter, just shot) by police than an unarmed white person? I suppose I could work it out if I knew the US demographics.

                        > The notable cases being George Floyd who died of an overdose

                        Interesting alternative truth. The official medical report, I believe, is that he died of cardiopulmonary arrest brought about by the "subdual" and "restraint" processes used by the police (while basically begging for his life). It suggested drugs could have contributed, but were not the primary cause. A second autopsy gave cause of death due to asphyxia caused by neck and back compression, and not to any medical condition. The courts evidently agreed, and the culprit was found guilty of murder. How that becomes "died of an overdose" is quite beyond me; disingenuous doesn't even get close.

                        > Breonna Taylor who was caught in the crossfire as her boyfriend decided to shoot at the cops.

                        Decided to shoot at the people who battered their way into his apartment (apparently that is normal and sanctioned in the US). The police claimed to have announced themselves as such; that is disputed by the boyfriend. The fact that the police involved were fired by their own force (who even charged them -- ultimately to no end -- with "wanton endangerment") says to me that even their employer did not buy their own officers' version of events.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                          https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/09/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-10/index.html

                          “So in your opinion,” Nelson asked, “both the heart disease as well as the history of hypertension and the drugs that were in his system played a role in Mr. Floyd’s death?”

                          “In my opinion, yes,” Baker said.

                          Baker said he “conveyed” to county prosecutors soon after the autopsy the “lack of anatomical findings” that would support the conclusion Floyd died of asphyxiation.

                          It is odd how the official autopsy makes no mention of injury to the neck, only the 'independent' one performed by someone in the pay of the family.

                          Anyway, the moral of the story being don't be high on drugs, don't wait around when someone calls the cops on you and don't ask to be put on the ground rather than sit in the police car.

                          https://news.sky.com/story/angelo-quinto-man-who-told-police-please-dont-kill-me-died-after-officer-knelt-on-his-neck-family-says-12228263

                          1. jake Silver badge

                            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                            Whatever.

                            This thread was about "Core Python developer suspended for three months", remember?

                            Why the apparent need to devolve threads like this into useless, contentious tedium? Trying to misdirect the conversation for some reason?

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                              Because a lot of the justification used for such things as equity are based on at best half-truths and at worst outright lies. We live in a world where hurt feelings matter more than anything.

                      2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

                        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

                        Because most people are cowards, they only kick good people liek the police, but never remember to spit on the real waresholes of this world their own neighbours who cause gun shootouts on a regular basis.

          2. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            No you said it wrong... black lives dont matter... it should read black AMERICAN lives matter, because i have yet to hear about black AFRICAN lives mattering or asian kids working in nike factories while americans get millions for...

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          All three definitions refer to more or less the same, only the perspective differs. The problem with CoCs is that they are a vehicle employed by adherents of Critical Theory and its many offshoots (here, "SJWs" for short) to limit other people's speech to their liking by establishing themselves as arbiters of truth and goodness. Convoluted rules, secret proceedings, deliberate vagueness, the lot. Far from leveling any playing field, it is ment to cause strife, then blame the victims for being strife-causers so they can be silenced, ejected, "dealt with". This is cancel culture in action.

          For many partaking in the spiel there's not much concious thought going on: The mechanisms employed run on cult mechanics so most people, even in the thick of it, are only dimly aware of what's really going on. For some good scholarship on the mechanics at play, try and see newdiscourses.com, though there are other sources too. So yeah, we have stupid strife and most barely see where it's coming from, but that's deliberate.

          Since you brought them up, I was actually obscurely happy with the UK anti-immigrant riots. Not because I support any such thing, which I don't, but because finally we see some back-pressure the other way. For note that we, that is pretty much the entire Western world, have long been played by extreme left pressure groups. They're tiny, but there's many, one for every tiny issue some lefty cares to think up, and they have been having grossly outsized influence. This has skewed perspective. Consider that the "Capitol rioters" could easily be reframed as "citizens concerned about their vote", thus extremely engaged democrats. Certainly if you compare those "mostly peaceful" Portland riots, doing so much more damage, even up to outright and explicit sedition and call for secession, and attacks on public order and its keepers. And that's ignoring the long-term fall-out for the affected communities, the nepotism and graft within the BLM organisation, the fact they outright admitted to being "trained Marxists, don't worry", and other things that shouldn't be ignored. Both in the UK, say these riots compared to various "XR" and other like groups' misdeeds, like the art-attackers and the motorway mobs, and the "Capitol rioters" vs. the Portland mobs, compare and contrast the state-led prosecution of each group. There is a marked difference in repercussions and the division runs along ideological lines.

          The thing is, we are living under a yoke where a lot of things cannot be said and much of this is ideologically coloured. Things that we increasingly cannot afford to not be able to talk about. As you can see here, where voicing concerns about the wellbeing of the project is rewarded by character assassination and suspension, to be followed by forceful ejection from the project. That this will lose the project an engaged and knowledgeable contributor is nothing to the bureaucrats driving the process. Their ideology trumps any technical prowess.

          In the wider political perspective, the riots ought to be a wake-up call. I sincerely hope it's not too late to divert the ire away from simple racism, but that can only happen if it gets recognised as having at least some legitimacy. Which it does, since there are real problems underlying the ire that need addressing. Instead it's again labeled simplistically with a big word of big badness and attacked and suppressed in its entirety. Thus leaving the problems to fester until the next, and stronger, and even less nuanced, outburst. The longer the issues are ignored, the more costly the cleanup afterward. I do think this ostrich-like behaviour is the main driver towards reiterating past mistakes.

          As to the python project, "go woke, get broke". Like a bunch of other projects that let themselves get bamboozled into letting the SJWs in, they're going to have to get rid of that BS before they can hope to start functioning again. A fork seems more likely.

          1. LybsterRoy Silver badge

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            One question I have yet to see asked is "who is funding/organising the anti-racist demonstrations". Anyone but me noticed that the rioters were pretty badly organised and presented whilst the anti-racist protesters had nicely printed signs and were well organised.

            1. LionelB Silver badge

              Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

              Perhaps just better educated, more savvy, more resourceful and more disciplined?

          2. LionelB Silver badge

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            > The thing is, we are living under a yoke where a lot of things cannot be said ...

            Can't they? You seem to have managed to say an awful lot. I'm guessing the jackboots have not arrived at your door yet.

            There are a number of places where a lot of things really cannot be said; Putin's Russia, North Korea, various Islamic states, come to mind. Your rants are at best snowflaky, at worst an insult to the poor folk who have to actually live under such regimes.

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        Where is the correct definition:

        0. Arisen from sleep, now in need of a coffee and breakfast

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          That’s awake. Woke is what happened to you to get you into the state of awake.

        2. LybsterRoy Silver badge

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          You missed out "and time to walk the dog"

      3. HollowMask

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        The only difference between 2 & 3 is perceived motive.

    3. Skiver

      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

      "wokism" = anything that happens that that the right doesn't like.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        Racism/sexism/whateverism = anything the radical left doesn't like.

        The left and right are two sick sides of the same tired and stupid arguments. Unfortunately both are also populated by the loudest blowhards who will never shut up in the lifetime of this Universe.

        1. desht

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          "Racism/sexism/whateverism = anything the radical left doesn't like."

          I'm hardly radical left (I'd call myself centre-left, but that probably makes me a woke radical commie tofu eater in the eyes of some chuckleheads here)

          But oddly enough I find myself not liking racism and sexism, so I'm not quite sure what argument you think you're making here...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            That's because you're being obtuse here. Possibly deliberately, making you rather more leftist than you're caring to admit to. You are showing the requisite shitting on detractors, name calling, and a bit of gaslighting. Back to the point being made, Humpty Dumpty knows the answer to this one.

            “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

            ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

            ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

            ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

        2. m0rissette

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          Human, doesn’t give any fucks about the left or the right, just trying to get by to the next day and take care of their family, community, and themselves. Identifies as Libertarian.

          1. LionelB Silver badge

            Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

            > Libertarian.

            Brings to mind the old Irish joke from the time of the Troubles.

            Scene: A man scurries nervously along a dimly-lit Belfast backstreet, when he is suddenly confronted by a black-clad figure wearing a balaclava.

            "Are ye a Catholic or a Protestant?" barks the man in black. The terrified fellow thinks quickly. "I'm... err... Jewish," he replies apprehensively. There is a long pause. "Olroit...", says the hooded man, "So are ye a Catholic or a Protestant Jew?"

        3. LionelB Silver badge

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          > Racism/sexism/whateverism = anything the radical left doesn't like.

          Blows hard...

          > Unfortunately both are also populated by the loudest blowhards who will never shut up in the lifetime of this Universe.

          <speechless>

      2. itzman

        Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

        The right. A term used by people calling themselves liberal to cancel any ideas they find uncomfortable, in order to remove the need to actually think about then, which comes hard for a liberal.

        1. LionelB Silver badge

          Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

          Ho hum. May as well swap left <--> right, liberal <--> reactionary there.

    4. fg_swe Silver badge

      "Shut Up"

      In order to have oligarchs ram their agenda through, eh ?

      Did you take the GATES $hot ?

      1. legendairy

        Re: "Shut Up"

        Of course they did. They do whatever their tech overlords tell them.

    5. Not Yb Bronze badge

      Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"

      "unaware of the specifics." is easily solved by reading the article.

  3. Andrew Williams

    Well, it's one more way to self-destruct. From what the steering group has said (per the piece) that's the likely end result.

  4. Drakon

    I can’t comment too much on this specific incident due to some of the relevant posts being hidden, but a lot of people don’t seem to realise that outstanding technical contributions to a project don’t mean you’re immune to the consequences of being a piece of shit.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Actually, we're generally very aware of them. But it's not pertinent here. I read Tim's e-mails, which were well reasoned and written and not offensive. However, the thread did contain posts from the usual group of people more than happy to take offence on behalf of other people. Both Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman are arseholes but that doesn't mean everything they did is shit and not worth considering.

      I've been at Python conferences where keynote speakers will talk about the need to get people around the world to attend their conference but who, strangely, don't offer support for poor people in their own countries. And I've been censured at a conference for saying "Java is shit". If these fuckers ever get hold of El Reg, 99% of the comments will have to go.

      Don't like that? Fine by me: feel free not to use my software.

      1. fg_swe Silver badge

        "arseholes"

        So anybody with competence should be "cancelled" ? So that the insane NATO Communists and their oligarch backers can rule undisputed ?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Damn those oligarch commies!

          It's ironic that someone who was inexplicably set off on a barely-connected, borderline-unhinged rambling about "NATO communists"(!) is calling anyone else "insane".

          (Your comment also makes it seem like you disagree with what Charlie Clark said, when it seems like he was arguing *against* "cancellation", albeit in a less foaming-at-the-mouth way to yourself- so if anything I'd have otherwise assumed you'd have agreed with them. Or did the bee in your obsessive bonnet about "NATO communists" get triggered far too quickly for you to have noticed that?)

      2. gnasher729 Silver badge

        I just apply the spouse test. If I worked on software called "slut" or "gimp", or if I worked with Richard Stallman, I would have to do some pretty hard explaining to my wife. Especially with what she knows about Stallman. I don't think she's heard anything about Raymond.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          > ... I would have to do some pretty hard explaining to my wife.

          Did yours not come equipped with a sense of humour or tolerance?

    2. Khaptain Silver badge

      "but a lot of people don’t seem to realise that outstanding technical contributions to a project don’t mean you’re immune to the consequences of being a piece of shit."

      Tell us what you think about the likes of Steve Jobs, or Jeff Bezos.

      1. CRConrad

        OK, I'll tell you what I think:

        Similar in that neither of them made all that outstanding technical contributions to their respective projects; different in that they were / are largely piece of shit in quite dissimilar ways. HTH!

        1. ChoHag Silver badge

          Re: OK, I'll tell you what I think:

          If their project is "make a machine which shovels idiots' money into my pocket" I'd say they both did exceptionally well.

    3. InsaneGeek

      The religious right used that "not immune from consequences" when they used offensive speech rules against LGBTQ+ people to get them fired, etc. I was taught that no matter if you thought it was reprehensible and hateful, you were even worse for trying to repress them. That rule still applies today, pushing for consequences makes you even worse then them. To use the meme "are we the baddies?" Yes, python people you are being the baddies, just like religious people were

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        In exactly the same way as the woke people are today.

        The LGBT crowd used to be full of nice people , now the movement is simply full of bullies and downright nasty people.

        1. LionelB Silver badge

          And the religious right isn't? (Or ever wasn't?)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            And the religious left isn't? (Or ever wasn't?)

            1. LionelB Silver badge

              What religious left?

  5. Tom 38

    Bad journalism

    "Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL [Saturday Night Live] skit from the 1970s using the same slur 'genuinely funny', which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members."

    He _did not_. He said - and you link to his exact words, so I don't know how you could have fucked this up:

    It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny :wink:).

    He calls SNL in the 70s genuinely funny. He said nothing about the actual skit - just noting that it existed.

    PS: The word in question rhymes with cut and slot. What a load of nonsense over nothing. Tim didn't create the package, he just didn't see the need to censor it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bad journalism

      If Tim doesn't understand the need to remove a word that (a) adds nothing of value and (b) is offensive to plenty of people to the point that he is *actively defending it*, then it is increasingly clear that he is indeed the problem here.

      It also makes me increasingly distrustful of the defenses of his other posts.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Bad journalism

        Belgium!

        1. Paul Herber Silver badge

          Re: Bad journalism

          You silly Brugge.

      2. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Bad journalism

        "If Tim doesn't understand the need to remove a word that (a) adds nothing of value and (b) is offensive to plenty of people to the point that he is *actively defending it*, then it is increasingly clear that he is indeed the problem here."

        Anyone that is so thin skinned should remain out of contact with people because eventually they will find offense in something said by someone, it's unavoidable due to us being humans and not machines.. And if they can't manage to find offense they will eventually create a new offense in order to keep the victim machine turning, as per the current tradition.

        It's an endless game of being a victim, and everyone loses. There is nothing positive or fruitful with this stupid game.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Bad journalism

        Semprini! One of my favorite function names after seeing someone else do this in a different code base.

      4. RedeemerOfSouls

        Re: Bad journalism

        Just as an FYI: in this age of worldwide Woke Dementia pandemic, everything is bound to be “offensive” to someone.

      5. O'Reg Inalsin

        Re: Bad journalism

        I agree with you AC that decision to block/remove the package due to gratuitous use of the word "slut" is fine. However, once the decision was successfully passed, I don't see value or necessity in punitive actions in response to comments expressing opposition to that decision, provided those comments don't clog up technical discussions or otherwise impede important technical progress.

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bad journalism

        That attitude marks you an SJW and with that, I'm going to outright ignore everything you have to say as addle-brained hateful nonsense.

        See what you did there? You made me distrustful of your posts!

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bad journalism

        Just where is the Commitee of Public Safety when you need it. That'll soon stop the <insert suitably derogatory term that doesn't offend anybody - oh wait, it doesn't exist> in their tracks. Please note that the last word isn't intended to be offensive to intravenous drug users /s.

      8. This post has been deleted by its author

      9. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bad journalism

        Have you not heard of "slutwalks", wherein the term has been reclaimed by feminists? Shout it loud, fellow sluts!

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Bad journalism

      "cut" sounds just like a very rude word in Dutch. Maybe it's time to ban "cut & paste" :-D

      Donald Knuth noted that "names are hard".

      1. Solviva

        Re: Bad journalism

        The CoC writers best not ever visit Sweden via rail lest their train terminates at a terminus, which is called in Swedish, slutstation. They'd be scarred for life!

    3. FIA Silver badge

      Re: Bad journalism

      He _did not_. He said - and you link to his exact words, so I don't know how you could have fucked this up:

      There’s also a link to the cited reasons these were a direct quote of.

      It was the python people who misunderstood.

      1. tinpinion
        Thumb Up

        Re: Bad journalism

        Aw, shoot. Beat me to it!

        El Reg's only addition to that particular point is the link to the 'genuinely funny' quote (hopefully the same one being referred to by the allegation).

        I'm hopeful that it was merely an instance of incompetence rather than malice, but don't suspect that it would have changed anything if the allegation had been removed entirely. The remainder of the list would still have more elements in it than one.

        1. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

          Link

          Yes, all we've done is link through to the thread so people can see what it's about. It's otherwise a direct quote of the Python people, not an allegation we've made. I've moved the link out of the quote.

          C.

    4. This is my handle
      Headmaster

      Re: Bad journalism

      Well, you're half right: It rhymes with cut. It alliterates with slot.

    5. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Bad journalism

      This being America, I presume, they all know about SNL but haven't a clue what "Fawlty Towers" is.

      Under the guise of being sensitive to peoples' feelings we're becoming a very narrow minded, intolerant, society. One that, despite the faux concern, is rather cruel in that it seeks to destroy anything that differs from it.

      Just as a hint to understand the world I'd suggest that being able to laugh at -- or criticize -- oneself is an important step in being able to emphasize with others. The aforementioned Fawlty Towers is about as Politically Incorrect as its possible to be but in doing so it makes some very important points about intolerance.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Bad journalism

        As a WestCoastian, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that PBS allowed "Are You Being Served?" to run at all, much less for the several dozen repeats of the entire series, over several decades.

        FARTY TOWELS has been on American TV, specifically the many PBS stations nationwide. It comes and goes in re-runs... although granted, I do not remember it being on for the last decade or longer. Maybe the hyper politically correct are winning ...

        1. Bebu
          Windows

          Re: Bad journalism

          As a WestCoastian, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that PBS allowed "Are You Being Served?" to run at all, much less for the several dozen repeats of the entire series, over several decades.

          FARTY TOWELS has been on American TV, specifically the many PBS stations nationwide. It comes and goes in re-runs... although granted, I do not remember it being on for the last decade or longer. Maybe the hyper politically correct are winning ...

          I guess we "don't mention the war" or stereotype Barcelonian waiters or Irish builders, definitely not "Mrs Slocombe's pussy" and we won't go anywhere near Mr Humphries' "walk this way."

          As an antipodean of advancing years the whole shambles resembles nothing so much as one of the more ridiculous Monty Python sketches, ironically the series after which the language was named.

          Actually I suspect a very small proportion of America's great unwashed actually watch PBS. I always wondered whether more Australians watched the Lehrer News Hour than Americans especially while the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac fiasco unfolded.

          FWIW the unmentionable cut rhyming word originally meant untidy, slovenly (slattern) at least in UK english. I suppose we have to excise any mention of the village bike as well.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Bad journalism

            "Actually I suspect a very small proportion of America's great unwashed actually watch PBS."

            From the always suspect Wiki: every year since 2004, surveys of Americans have shown PBS to have been consistently ranked as the most trusted institution in comparison to commercial broadcast and cable television, newspapers, and streaming services

            "I always wondered whether more Australians watched the Lehrer News Hour than Americans"

            I seriously doubt it, especially considering that the total population of Oz is about 3/4 of that of just one State in the US (California).

            "especially while the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac fiasco unfolded."

            That's new news (2007?). It was the Watergate scandal in '73 that brought us Robert MacNeil and Jim Lehrer. They hosted PBS's nightly complete report on the court proceedings, not as it occurred 'in real time", but pre-recorded and rebroadcast in prime-time. I remember it being on in every household[0] I was visiting during those 8 months or so. Long and short, us Yanks in general have continued watching the two of them.

            [0] Ranging from my own, to dorms of kids I was tutoring[1], to my grandparents to on the screens at Fred's Place (Silly Con Valley dive bar), to airport lounges. Name it, if it had a TV, it was tuned into the PBS coverage of the doings of Tricky Dick and friends.

            [1] Can you imagine? A tutor being allowed in a dorm for private, one-on-one tutoring? Not only condoned by the Uni, but actively encouraged. The world sure has changed ...

    6. CRConrad

      WTF? I don't get it

      Who used "bot" as a slur in the 1970s?!?

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: WTF? I don't get it

        "Who used "bot" as a slur in the 1970s?!?"

        Just about everybody. Remember, ELIZA was 1966, and PARRY was '72. By '77 we had Star Wars.

        Maybe I'm just in an odd demographic ...

    7. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      No.

      We're *quoting* what Tim was accused of. We're not saying it - we're quoting what the allegation is. That's why there are quote marks around it. We've linked to what was actually said by Tim for *your* context.

      If you don't agree with the allegation, fine. But we're not saying it. The stuff in quotes you're attributing to us for some reason you should attribute to the Python council.

      C.

    8. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Re: Bad journalism

      Nothing rhymes with "cut" and "slot" because they don't rhyme with each other. If you meant "slut", it's ok now - there were Slutwalks to reclaim the word.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Bad journalism

        They do if you mispronounce "slot" "slut", c.f. Shatner's DOM in a certain very bad Bullock vehicle.

    9. Madre O'Fender

      Re: Bad journalism

      Thanks for the clues as to what the OW (Offensive Word) was.

      Now tell me it wasn't a Unit Test for something like a "Sorted List" or whatever commonly (in the codebase) abbreviated to SL.

      Because, I'd probably want to shorten "SortedListUnitTest" if I was coding it.

    10. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bad journalism

      Wow, you'd have a bad time in Australia. The words "slut" and "cunt" are commonly used to describe people in non-disparaging ways. And in disparaging ways.

      Similar to how "fuck" can have several meanings depending upon context, so can those two words. And probably many others.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a 'neurodivergent' trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment.

    I am classed as 'neurodivergent', having been diagnosed with Asperger's, and I do need special treatment. I need people to be direct, blunt and to disregard tactfulness. I don't get subtlety, and I can also be very blunt and tactless.

    People can also be critical of me, as I know my behaviour sometimes appears inappropriate and I appreciate having my occasional blunders pointed out so much can try to avoid them. Criticism that might evoke anger or resentment in most people are handled very differently by someone like me - it triggers an analytical process to try and understand the reasons for the criticism.

    Yes, it would be great to be treated no differently than anyone else, but that would make my life much harder. Surely it's much more sensible to acknowledge differences in perception and reasoning, and not end up with the awkwardness that would otherwise result?

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      The usual woke reply to that would be that you're not truly 'neurodivergent', because your personal situation does not fit into their narrative.

      I have never been diagnosed so I don't know if I fall into any of the categories/spectrum etc but if I did I would probably be pretty close to your situation.. I prefer the honest/direct approach, it's something that I can understand , not the subtle one which is impossible to interpret.

      1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge
        Joke

        Self-Awareness

        As a techie friend once put it, "Do I fuckin' look like a people-person?!"

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Self-Awareness

          ... or Linus Torvald ...

      2. LionelB Silver badge

        > The usual woke reply to that would be that you're not truly 'neurodivergent', because your personal situation does not fit into their narrative.

        Are you confused, or am I? I would have thought that "woke" people would defend the neurodivergent as a potentially oppressed and bullied minority (but see my previous post).

        But hey, what do I know? Personally, I'm subtle as fuck.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          In the context of "woke" I'll call you an idealist and Khaptain a realist.

          1. LionelB Silver badge

            Are you sure?

            Khaptain: "The usual woke reply to that would be that you're not truly 'neurodivergent', because your personal situation does not fit into their narrative."

            I rather think the problem here may be that the neurodivergent do not fit Khaptain's narrative regarding "woke" (a term which has become denatured to the point of meaninglessness, and which, when deployed as a supposed insult, only reveals the disinclination of the user/abuser to bother with engaging their brain).

            Whatever - I have no problem with being labelled idealistic - of the pragmatic variety (as opposed to an ideologue; I have no time for tribalism, or -isms in general).

            1. Khaptain Silver badge

              Woke : It was once a word used by black people to signify that one should remain aware. But it has been kidnapped by a completely other group of people.

              You can call them what you like, Social Justice Warriors, Virtue Signalers, Idealists, Blue/Pink/green haired middle class white people. Cal them them what you want we all understand the context of who and what they are.

              They are the people shouting out the loudest about life's injustices whilst profiting from that very same system. They don't truly want to change the system, they just want to be at the top without having put in any of the hard work.

              1. LionelB Silver badge

                Nah. It's just become a meaningless catch-all term of abuse from the reactionary right for anyone who doesn't share their perspective; a tribal "virtue" signal, if you like.

                And when did idealism become a Bad Thing, by the way? Don't you think those of a reactionary persuasion -- especially the religious right -- likely see themselves as holding rather strong ideals, to say the least? (Personally, if I really have to subscribe to any -ism, it would probably be humanism.)

                1. Khaptain Silver badge

                  idealism becomes bad when you start enforcing that others believe your lies.

                  1. LionelB Silver badge

                    So it's not the idealism per se that's bad - it's "enforcing that others believe your lies".

                    A couple of problems with that:

                    1. Wanting to enforce people to believe your lies is hardly the preserve of idealists. In fact it may even help not to be an idealist, if that's your agenda; cynicism seems more appropriate.

                    2. How do you "enforce" people to believe anything? I mean you may wish to, and you can give it a go -- you may even coerce people into pretending to believe your lies (popular in many parts of the world) -- but people have an annoying tendency to have minds of their own.

                    In any case, are there not also good ideals? To be trite, suppose in my ideal world I'd want people to be kind to each other. Would that make me a terrible, dangerous person?

                    1. Khaptain Silver badge

                      Mea Culpa : I just realised that I wrote Idealist instead of Ideologist.

                      and the following phrase "Wanting to enforce people to believe your lies" should have read "Wanting to enforce people to believe their lies" ..

                      1. Wanting to enforce people to believe your lies is hardly the preserve of idealists. In fact it may even help not to be an idealist, if that's your agenda; cynicism seems more appropriate.

                      Agreed

                      2. How do you "enforce" people to believe anything?

                      "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

                      2 : I mean you may wish to, and you can give it a go -- you may even coerce people into pretending to believe your lies (popular in many parts of the world) -- but people have an annoying tendency to have minds of their own.

                      We are currently seeing it done in schools and all over TikTok. We all know the subject I just won't mention it directly. Most people don't think for themselves, if such were the case we would not have the politicians/politics that we have right now.

                      1. LionelB Silver badge

                        I think the term is "ideologue" -- fanatical subscribers to some -ism or other -- and yes, they are bad news. Not long ago here in the UK, we had one of those who inexplicably managed to became Prime Minister for a (very) short time. Blinded to reality by her ideology, she tanked the economy in record time - we have barely recovered from the damage.

                        > "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

                        Sure, propaganda is a powerful tool, and catching them at an early age particularly effective (I guess you may have been referring to religious indoctrination, perhaps the paradigm example). A particularly insidious variety popular nowadays is to undermine the very notion of truth - "truth" becomes, by definition, what the demagogue(s) declare it to be (the cult of Trump speaks strongly to that one - see also Russia, North Korea, China ...).

                        > Most people don't think for themselves, if such were the case we would not have the politicians/politics that we have right now.

                        Or, perhaps, do think for themselves, but find themselves in agreement with the demagoguery in question. Or, worse, they may, deep down, recognise propaganda as lies, but have simply ceased to care about truth (see above).

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Happy

      I am classed as 'neurodivergent', having been diagnosed with Asperger's, and I do need special treatment. I need people to be direct, blunt and to disregard tactfulness. I don't get subtlety, and I can also be very blunt and tactless.

      That is what I call "common sense and efficiency in communications".

      If you have to stop and *FEEL* you're wasting time!!! It's like "just say it directly". Like in the (used to be that way) military. Black Adder would approve...

      1. LionelB Silver badge

        Because feelings are for lusers. That's why all literature, art, theatre, film, dance, music and personal relationships are SHITE. Feelings, feelings, feelings.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          And let's not forget hormones! They're for girls ... especially testosterone (and the steroid sisters), dopamine, oxycodone, and oxytocin ... us real boys have neither hormones, nor feelings ... just like a Terminator!

        2. LionelB Silver badge

          Okay, okay, next time I'll TELEGRAPH the irony (that didn't used to be necessary, at least not so much in UK forums).

  7. Securico

    "The issue is that Python Fellows are awarded membership for life and the only mechanism to remove them – if they've been found to have violated the CoC – is seeking a vote from the full Python Community. This is undesirable, because it would "subject members of the community – including people directly impacted by that violator's behavior – to undue distress."

    What a creative and novel way of saying we would get absolutely battered in a vote.

    1. fg_swe Silver badge

      Soviet Of Python

      So they essentially want the power to fire people INSIDE their little Python soviet ? No need to ask the plebs.

  8. Locomotion69 Bronze badge

    So Tim got suspended for three months due to misbehaviour.

    And is the "problem" gone now? Will Time "behave" in the future? Only time will tell.

    People communicate. People get emotional. People say things.

    One should realise that situations like this one only get better if parties keep communicating - not ignore or lock out for a period of time.

    It is people we are talking about, not computers. People are way more complex than computers.

    1. O'Reg Inalsin

      Partially agree but definitely depends on time/place/occasion. I have no idea about Tim, but suppose a person "T". If "T" uses every subsequent opportunity to hark back and argue over to the original decision to remove/block the package with the offensive word, then "T" would be interfering with work. Nobody should be forced to tolerate that kind interference without limit. However, if "T" just posted multiple times on the original thread discussing the decision, which nobody is obliged to read or engage with, then I don't see "T" as a work obstructionist, because nobody has to read his opinion.

      In particular I think ignoring non-work related talk from "T" is a perfectly valid response - actually the best response. "T" being able to blow off steam in a non-interfering way is the optimal solution.

    2. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

      when communication itself is the problem

      "situations like this one only get better if parties keep communicating"

      Sure, let's talk some more. And then let's get together again and talk about why we got into an argument last time. Rinse and repeat.

      Face it. Sometimes people disagree so fundamentally that the only sensible thing left is to avoid talking to each other. That's not the same as giving up. Once you stop wasting time arguing pointlessly, you have some space to be creative and try to think of some other way of overcoming differences.

  9. HuBo Silver badge
    Pint

    Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

    The article nicely illustrates "the tension between merit-based OSS culture and the growing emphasis and call for inclusivity" imo (from the linked academic study's Conclusion section). We know that folks who achieve great things in IT can also exhibit "borked" social interactivity (Richard Stallman[*], Hans Reiser, ...), as can happen in other fields too (eg. Oscar Pistorius). For Tim Peters (Python Distinguished Service Award 2017), arguing to keep the slut package[**] in PyPl (linked under 'genuinely funny'), based on SNL's Jane, You Ignorant Slut Weekend Update sketch, was surely not socially smart (a funny sketch, but not a good name for a package to be broadly distributed, to any and all Python users, of all age groups, ...).

    Here's to hoping we can have more project folks who are simultaneously technically meritorious and socially bearable, to help advance OSS, without the need for ever stiffer CoCs (my 2-penses)!

    [*] (mentioned also by earlier kommentards)

    [**] (removal Approved 6-4-1 by IRC vote, 31 January, 2014)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

      Can you provide a list of non-english words for which we need to prohibit the english version? As someone more eloquent than me said "there are only so many syllables".

      Are you going to tell Phuc Yoo Dao that his name is offensive? If so, fuck you.

      1. O'Reg Inalsin

        Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

        Are you going to hire this person? - https://www.linkedin.com/in/phuc-yoo-4a2764122.

        So, context is important.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

          "Are you going to hire this person?"

          Absolutely not.

          Because they are on linkedin, which is one of my "do not hire" filters.

          To be perfectly honest, I don't care if they are on linkedin ... but their CV/resume will get bit-bucketed if they expect me to go there.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

      Let's not forge that it was Jane Curtain herself who contributed that line.

      Because she thought it was funny in that context , not to denigrate anybody.

      There's a reason that SNL was aired after the watershed.

      Note the whole SNL team was known as the Not Ready For Prime-Time Players.

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

        I'm not trying to pull the curtains on this obviously non-trivial issue ... For the record, I know her name is Curtin.

        If my typoe has caused you heartache, please accept a beer in compensation.

    3. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

      Gimp.

      1. HuBo Silver badge
        Gimp

        Re: Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?

        Quite right. The GIMP is technically meritorious software, but its "unusual" name has kept it out of the classroom limelight (among others). I think I'd support seeing it modify its name to something more inspirational and socially smart, that passes the Gnasher Spouse Test, and the stiffest of CoCs, maybe PhotoChopAge, or PhotoBondAge, or somesuch ... Oh wait (eh-eh-eh)!

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anything Anyone Says....Anything At All...Is Bound To Offend Someone Else....

    ....including this!

    Welcome to 2024!!

  11. BasicReality

    The real issue

    The real issue is that we live in a weak, hyper sensitive society. We give too much weight to someone's feelings. The reason the Dan Akroyd / Jane Curtin is funny is because it's offensive. Of course you don't go around saying something like that to a woman, but they did for the shock value and it was funny. I have to admit, I wasn't familiar with it, but I looked it up.

    When people want to remove words like "master" and "slave" which were traditionally used in hard disk configurations, or the name "master" as the default Git branch it just shows how weak minded society has become. It's just a word, it has no evil intent, and for anyone offended, grow up. People act like large children instead of adults these days.

    1. Joe W Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: The real issue

      Ah. That

      Ok. In general, yes, there are a bunch of people who just love to be offended on behalf of others.

      On the other hand, names are really hard, and i actually prefer the term main for my git branch. Skal, shouldn't we rename that version control system? (Ok, I'm kidding)

      1. Will Godfrey Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: The real issue

        Well, maybe we should rename 'git' too - it's a well known insulting term in the UK.

        And what about all those master carpenters? Tell you what, we'll call them "Fully qualified and highly experienced carpenters". Just rolls off the tongue doesn't it?

        Once we've got that sorted out, we then have to deal with common abbreviations and acronyms that might result in offence to one person on a desert island.

    2. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

      Re: The real issue

      Username checks out.

  12. This post has been deleted by its author

  13. ecofeco Silver badge

    Oh that is not the worst

    https://www.techradar.com/pro/security/github-token-leak-could-have-put-the-entire-python-language-at-risk

    "What if the Python programming language itself was malicious? It would be the most devastating supply chain attack in human history - but it almost happened after an important GitHub token was accidentally leaked.

    Cybersecurity researchers from JFrog recently discovered a GitHub Personal Access Token in a public Docker container hosted on Docker Hub, which granted elevated access to the GitHub repositories of the Python language, Python Package Index (PyPI), and the Python Software Foundation (PSF)."

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  14. jake Silver badge

    Those who can, code. Or write documentation, or run the mailing list, etc.

    Those who can't, preach about diversity, inclusion, welcomeness, openness and otherwise create a lot of hot air (hand-waving optional) that does absolutely nothing to further the language.

    Python clearly needs to form a new team to discuss this immediately!

    1. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

      Re: Those who can, code. Or write documentation, or run the mailing list, etc.

      The more people claim equality or diversity you can be sure the exact opposite is true.

      Just look at america, everyone is supposedly equal except the working class is being forced to work greater and greater hours for less and less pay just to suppor tthe parasitic leadership class.

      Equality should be about real tangible benefits not stupid labels...

  15. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    'reverse' racism is racism

    'reverse' racism is racism, and I have no idea what the article writer means by saying there is no empirical evidence it exists. There's places that do have race-based policies and quotas, that is inherently racist. I mean, one can say it's making up for past wrongs or something but it doesn't change that fact.

    That said, policies to be inclusive by not allowing racist, sexist, and misogynist language, and expect respectful dialogue, that is not racist or sexist. And, after all, these are forums for discussing the Python programming language -- not some free-for-all.

    The SNL skit he refers to, it's where Dan Akroyd would say "Jane, you ignorant slut" to the other reporter. I mean, he's right, if you see a clip of it the way they ham it up it's hilarious, but certainly nothing to bring up or defend in a discussion about being nice in your postings. He posted at length about a vote from 2014 to remove a Python package called "slut" and how silly he thought it was. I mean it IS silly in a sense, but it was also an unused package that was no longer maintained, and they couldn't contact the maintainer to consider changing the name (also, a bunch of functions IN the program used "slut" in the names so it would have needed some internal rewriting too.) So it also would also have been silly to NOT remove it.

    I'm not for "political correctness run amok", but honestly from what I see of this developers posts, they essentially were repeatedly posting in defense of people saying literally whatever they want even if it makes other members of the forums highly uncomfortable. Keep in mind, this is not a general-purpose forum, it's for discussion of the Python programming language; so there's no reason for that kind of conduct.

    I think he made one or two good points -- but he belabored them WELL past the point that is reasonable. For that reason I can see why he got a 3 month suspension.

    I mean really, how much of a hair trigger does one have to have if they are dropping racist, sexist, and offensive comments over technical and policy discussions over the development of the Python programming language? (Not saying this developer did this, but he's vigorously defending being able to do so.) "No, this new functionality should be done this way, not this way, you @*#()**#"? If someone is feeling constrained by this type of policy, please get a grip.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

      On the "reverse racism" topic:

      I've been a victim of "reverse racism". I was denied an interview for a job at a Fortune 500 company because, in the words of the hiring manager, "we have to consider the diversity candidates first". Subsequently a "diversity candidate" was hired. "Reverse racism" really does exist.

      1. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

        “Victim of reverse racism”: It happens. But there are more victims of direct racism, so I can’t complain really. Would you rather be black, guaranteeing that you will never be the victim of reverse racism?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

          of course you can complain

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

        > "Reverse racism" really does exist.

        I think the point they were trying to make is that things like this (as you experienced) are just racism.

        There doesn't seem to be any real point to making a new definition for it, when the existing one ("racism") fits it perfectly fine.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

          The perpetually offended have changed the definition to include privilege and power thus it can only act one way.

    2. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: 'reverse' racism is racism

      A package with that particular name, I wouldn’t be particularly offended for myself, but my granddaughter would. I would be wondering about the mental age of the person who came up with the name, and I wouldn’t mind at all if it was renamed, even if I had to change a script or two because of that.

      There is no value in that name, and it will offend some, so change it.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can't we all just get along?

    I don't know the players involved (in fact, I barely know Python) but I for one have never excused talented (even brilliant) people from the need to have a certain modicum of social skills. That path leads to Ayn Rand... If your best friend is a keyboard and you're just coding small projects for yourself that's one thing, but any work of any significance will require working with others. The very successful founder of an eDiscovery startup where I once worked has said quite publicly more than once that he demanded two things of the folks who worked for him: 1) They have to be good coders and 2) They can't be a$$holes. (I think he specifically reiterated "-- no matter how good they are.") I personally think he exempted himself from one of those rules, but I heartily agree with the sentiment.

    1. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

      Re: Can't we all just get along?

      Exactly. I'm surprised there's any blowback at all towards just asking people to not be toxic toward others, or to not be an asshole.

      And to be honest, I think if they stated their policy in terms of being civil, keeping the forums friendly, and avoiding foul language instead of in terms of inclusivity, they probably would avoid a lot of that blowback. The result is the same, but both US and UK there's some toxic politics where telling someone "please don't be an asshole, and don't use foul language against others", they'd be fine; but telling them to be inclusive (even if it's effectively the same expectations...), then it's some big deal and intruding on their rights to say what they want, or something.

    2. jake Silver badge

      Re: Can't we all just get along?

      "I personally think he exempted himself from one of those rules"

      Funny how the ruling class always exempts itself from the rules set for the peons.

      Also funny how the CoC committee in modern FOSS always sees itself as the ruling class.

      Personally, I prefer a decent BDFL to a central group who see themselves as more equal than others.

      It's a crying shame that true BDFLs are so few and far between ...

    3. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Can't we all just get along?

      I’m not sure about that connection between “talented people” and Ayn Rand. Got one book of hers, and it screams “talentless” very, very loudly at me.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Can't we all just get along?

        Quite right about Ms. Rand and talent... I was thinking of her more as the apologist for her creation Howard Roark. I should have been clearer.

  17. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Facepalm

    The accusers need to look at themselves

    These days I find I'm repeatedly reminded of a quote I first heard back in the 1960s

    "It is foolish to expect ordinary behaviour from extraordinary people."

  18. jglathe

    Time to clean house I guess

    all screaming idiots out

    1. cyberdemon Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: Time to clean house I guess

      > all screaming idiots out

      And then the entire Net went dark

      1. ChoHag Silver badge

        Re: Time to clean house I guess

        October can begin?

  19. RedeemerOfSouls

    Wokism (aka “Woke Dementia”)

    For those of you looking for a definition of wokism (aka “Woke Dementia”), here’s the one I have found most illuminating (i.e. one that fits most of the cases that I have seen labeled as such): Woke Dementia is a type of dementia that manifests by subjugating the subject’s weltanschauung to the tenets of Intersectionality (look it up if you do not know what that is). A person afflicted with Woke Dementia views all huma interaction through an Intersectional prism: Everything that that person thinks and does is profoundly marked with an Intersectional viewpoint.

    It’s hardly news that the Python community has fallen prey to the current worldwide pandemic of Woke Dementia: Just the other day (okay, maybe farther back a tad) a member of the Python community das decrying the “White Supremacist”(!) character of Python as a programming language. It is, then, no wonder that Tim got suspended. Wokies do not like the freedom of speech, and will resort to all sorts of subtrefuges—such as branding speech as “inflammatory,” “offensive” etc., i.e. using all sorts of weasel words and highly subjective terms—in order to cancel those who take freedom of speech seriously.

    1. fg_swe Silver badge

      Welcome to Communism

      It only works by controlling the Information Sphere. All commie nations have a secret police who will crack down on anyone who exposes the elite commie corruption.

      And of course the NATO commies want to introduce this by stealth.

    2. captain veg Silver badge

      Re: Wokism (aka “Woke Dementia”)

      Wokism is the irrational belief that you should fry everything in a high-sided pan.

      -A.

  20. Herby

    What's in a name...

    Calling a dog a cat doesn't make it so. I'm sure this applies to lots of things, and mentioning them here won't get my silver badge back.

    MRI's (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) used to be called NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance). The name was changed to get rid of the word "nuclear" in the description of a medical procedure. It was thought to scare the patients. This is just one example of people getting excited about names.

    Funny thing, we all have them (reminds me of the song by Johnny Cash "A boy named Sue").

    Life goes on.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: What's in a name...

      "mentioning them here won't get my silver badge back."

      The only thing that'll get you your silver badge back is having more than 100 posts in the last year.

      Technically, that's the requirement for a bronze badge, but you already have more than 2,000 upvotes and so will be silver automagically.

    2. Ian Johnston Silver badge

      Re: What's in a name...

      I prefer the claim that the renaming came about after "Nurse, give this patient an NMR" was unfortunately misunderstood.

      1. Ken Shabby Bronze badge
        Alert

        Re: What's in a name...

        I said "prick his boil"

    3. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

      Re: What's in a name...

      Likewise:

      "With this new X-ray photolith process we've developed, we can now--"

      "Wait! That sounds too scary, and it'll present a bad public image. Instead, let's call it ... hmm ... 'Extreme Ultra Violet', or 'EUV' for short. Okay, continue."

  21. Chris Warrick

    Shadowy cabals hate criticism

    I have been reading the discussions, and Tim’s remarks sounded reasonable and sane (if a little harsh at times). Tim is not the only person that was suspended by the shadowy “CoC working group”; those folks were quite productive recently, handing out indefinite suspensions for some other Discourse members, because they had the audacity to criticise extending the power of the CoC WG’s banhammer.

    Meanwhile, packaging in Python is still a trainwreck, the standard implementation is still slow. Gee, I why they have no time nor resources to actually improve the language?

    1. keithzg

      Re: Shadowy cabals hate criticism

      Yeah I hate to side even a little with the "the wokist communist gay mob is out to get us exceptional white men, I'd have a job at a Fortune 500 company if not for all these [racial slur not heard since 1977]' mob, but pip still hasn't seen a return to having a working search function soooo there's also something to be said about the priorities being wack, even if it is more likely due to insular politics than The Globalists ;)

      1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge

        Re: Shadowy cabals hate criticism

        And never mind the dissembling and hand-waving about CVE-2018-20225. It requires a Holy Writ about how pip works to be changed, so it's going nowhere.

  22. MSArm

    Dear Tim, you're better off without the woke arseholes who want to trample on everyone else.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  23. dragonworks

    Tim is neurodivergent

    Tim, while overly abrasive and persistent, is actually defending neurodiversity and arguing for flexibility in applying the CoC to neurodivergent people. He also flat out says he thinks he himself is undiagnosed neurodivergent. Anecdotally, “domineering conversation” is a very common management feedback review for ADHD/ASD individuals, especially early career. Many organizations do not have adequate coaching to help them learn how to compensate, which is what Tim is advocating for instead of defaulting to termination. So this is a case where PSF management and moderation don’t know how else to handle a neurodivergent member they see as tactless and disrespectful, and who has some other problematic views that he shares in work contexts, and this is exactly what Tim is afraid of in the CoC thread. Here’s the neurodivergence thread: https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neurodivergent-newcomers-to-the-community/58724

    1. HuBo Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Tim is neurodivergent

      Great link (and 1st post)! Broadens the perspective on the PSF CoC's consideration of neurodiversity (or lack thereof -- from July 20-23, 2024), and Tim's (Peters) argumentation on the topic (advocacy, done very sensibly imo, not something that I'd put on any sort of "sanctionable behavior" list frankly, other than by completely mis-interpreting the whole thread).

  24. Claptrap314 Silver badge

    And the beat goes on...

    The woke brigade, previously known as "social justice warriors" are, among other things, hyper-certain of their own righteousness. They are, after all, on a crusade. As a result, their instant response to any opposition is to attack viciously. The fact that a well-intended, morally sensitive person might disagree with their conclusions is a matter simply not to be entertained.

    Which creates a real problem for those of us on the spectrum, as our definition of moral behavior tends not to emphasize the feelings of others, for the simple reason that we find our own emotions to generally be at best irrelevant, but more likely actively detrimental to positive outcomes. It does not help that almost all persuasive discourse outside of hard technical topics consists of logical fallacies.

    Contrary to the woke brigade, the Meritocracy was not toxic. It was an absolute haven for those of us whose competence excludes normal human relations.

    So now, people who's code contributions are mostly likely marginal at best, are systematically driving out the very people who have built this awe-inspiring system called "IT". This does not bode good long-term outcomes.

    1. Pete Sdev Bronze badge

      Re: And the beat goes on...

      the very people who have built this awe-inspiring system called "IT"

      People like Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, or Sophie Wilson you mean?

      I imagine you were one of the impotents frothing at the mouth recently that Blue Hat are aiming to employ at least 30% women.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And the beat goes on...

        I'm so proud that you can recite three foundational (?) compsci women. I can recite hundreds of men of the same eras.

  25. Not Yb Bronze badge

    Many people commenting here are just proving the point.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      Gimp

      You noticed that too?

      Self-aware wolves, the lot.

    2. Dekken

      This is abuse. Please do better.

  26. tim.one

    The horse's mouth

    I'm the "Tim Peters:" in question. The Register can verify that from my account email address (which they used to contact me before publication).

    There are five sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, what actually happened, and people just making stuff up ;-)

    I would only ask that people not leap to conclusions. The Register reported "their side" here, and I declined to comment. This is not the place to make a defense. I've been active in Python since the start (over 30 years), and "what an ass!" is very far from a consensus view. Not even among the people who enforced the ban. One of my nicknames there has long been "Uncle Timmy", not in a sarcastic way, but in an affectionate one. I try to be friendly with, and helpful to, everyone.

    As someone already mentioned, ya, I think it's clear that I am neurodivergent, but not at an extreme on any axis. I'm also long retired, and have no need or desire to "label myself" in my closing years. It does give me extra empathy for those often perceived as "troublemakers". Takes one to know one.

    Besides that, there are two other reasons for "conversation dominance": First, I'm retired. I have little better to do than type up what I'm thinking, around the clock. I actually never post most things I type. Second, when you're advocating for a minority view, there will typically be something like 4 people making opposing replies. So, e.g. I post once, get 4 replies, make 4 replies to those, and I'm "magically" accounting for 56% of all posts so far.

    Most people can't keep that up. But, I'm retired - combine that with a tendency toward obsession, and even I realize it's off-putting. In fact, I decided all on my own to stop posting two weeks ago, and have stuck to purely tech topics (which generate 0 complaints) ever since.

    No, I'm not a fan of any aspect of the banning process as is. But "they" have a very hard set of tradeoffs to manage too, and I'm not at all certain I could do better. Stumble along as best we all can, live & learn.

    1. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: The horse's mouth

      Hi Tim - thanks for commenting.

      For avoidance of doubt, I checked with Tim and by "their side," he means, the steering council's side.

      C.

    2. dragonworks

      Re: The horse's mouth

      I want to thank you for speaking up about neurodivergence after reading the threads. Those mods don’t seem to have any realistic concept of neurodivergence or social disability and the kind of soft skills development a lot of great technical engineers need. ASD special interests and ADHD hyperfocus are powerful tools for engineers to excel, and it’s a shame they’re choosing to actively reinforce disability and turn people away who just need some coaching and apprenticeship, especially when those often become the most productive engineers. Communities can’t run themselves even with perfect rules, it takes perpetual work and patience and grace and negotiation as individuals develop and grow.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: The horse's mouth

        While I appreciate the sympathy here, I'm passed accepting your premises.

        1) You agree that ASD & ADHD traits are precisely useful for the matter of technical excellence. Okay, so why is that not permitted to matter in the social realm? Why it is my responsibility to make the technically less-competent feel good about themselves? Who is paying me to be their technical mentor? "Average" people are a substantial drain on most mid-sized or larger projects, and if I'm donating my efforts why should they be allowed to judge me?

        Again, the Meritocracy was a haven. We were able to build this thing called "IT", but we could only do it if we didn't have to explain to average people why their ideas cannot work--there just isn't time. I quickly learned to keep my mouth mostly shut, for instance, on the lkml & cypherpunks. I learned a lot that way. If I can do it, then average people who supposedly are so much better at social interaction can **&* well do that too. Except their feelings are just so precious that if they get told "RTFM", suddenly the entire community is supposed to condemn me for not wanting to waste the time that I am donating to educate the latest summer's child as to what "winter" is all about.

        It is supremely arrogant for people not on the spectrum to look their technical superiors up and down and say, "what you need is some coaching to not be you". No. What you need is to give genius some space to serve you.

        2) The people driving these Codes of Conduct are very much not playing fair. First, there were public comments that the plain goal was to dismantle the Meritocracy. It took a couple of years to see how this was developing, but if you look at the allegations against Tim, you can see a very clear pattern--this is a hard-left agenda. "Diversity" is not about neurology, that is a certainty. It's a cover for promoting people without earned merit.

        Tim made his call not to fight this. I can respect him, but I really wish he had. For younger people whose careers will or already have been ruined by these harpies are not going to be contributing, let alone steering the next generation of IT. Those who have the hardest time of it are likely to be precisely the ones most needed to put things on track. This isn't about one or two people. Its about the future of the industry.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: The horse's mouth

          "this is a hard-left agenda"

          No, it is not.

          It is not left, nor is it right. It's not even orthogonal to either. It is politics agnostic.

          All it is is a power-grab. And idiots are allowing it to happen to them.

    3. tim.one

      Re: The horse's mouth

      Correction: there aren't 5 sides to this story. There are 6 now :-) Chris McDonough wrote a detailed blog post defending me:

      https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim

      I would not have written that - it doesn't praise me nearly enough ;-)

      Seriously, it gives a lot of background that may seem irrelevant, but really isn't in context. Some of the alleged crimes are so vaguely stated it's hard to guess what they're really about, and Chris's guesses don't always match mine. That's fine - it's his telling of the tale, not mine, and it's well written. I didn't ask him to change anything. While I don't agree with every detail, I think he got the broad strokes right, and I'm grateful that he thinks so highly of me to expend the considerable effort needed to write this defense.

      Is it the truth? Judge for yourself - but try to find other sides too. Everyone is deeply biased, including me, and Chris. Chris is obviously biased in my favor. But Chris is also respected in the larger community, and also holds the honorary title of PSF Fellow (see the original article here for more about that). I always respect and value what he has to say, although in this case , yes, it's self-serving to do so.

      I'd advise not taking anyone's word for anything - but do listen.

      1. HuBo Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: The horse's mouth

        Cool blog post (imho)! Makes me wonder of the extent to which the PSF's "Visionary", "Sustainability", and "Maintaining" sponsors (Google, Meta, Nvidia, Microsoft, AWS, ...) might be following the situation and becoming concerned about how the SC's CoC enforcement could inspissate itself into this poor decision. It seems quite "silly" for example (fickle, capricious, slighted, vindictive) that they were considering wink-emoji terrorism as a possible additional bullet in that (ergo ridiculous) indictment.

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: The horse's mouth

          Don't. The middle management of these companies are in complete support of this sort of thing.

      2. tim.one

        Re: The horse's mouth

        My ban is over now. During it, I started a blog so I could speak freely. There's a lot of info in it. It's a deep rabbit hole with nuance, which is why I initially declined to make any statement. Any "sound bite" answers would necessarily leave out important parts of the story. Short course: the listed "CoC violations" were, and remain, without merit to my (and many others') eyes. I don't believe any could survive a "reasonable person" standard, and some couldn't even survive a "sane person" standard (misreading the plain meaning of plain English). Bur ... there _were_ things worth them complaining about. But the list of contrived "violations" greatly obscured that. For much more than you really want to know ;-) , here you go:

        https://tim-one.github.io/psf

  27. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

    Standard

    "Code of Conduct" is a standard Trojan Horse for hijacking communities. Cf Robert Conquest's Three Laws.

  28. CowHorseFrog Silver badge

    Just reading the article and comments about the participants, its appears everybody mentioned are Americans. Americans and their boards of directors pretending they are equal. Yup everyone is equal thats why only boards get bonuses, somehow thats not inequality but calling someone a single word is wrong....

    Talk about actual harm.

  29. harrys

    Few hundred years of the steady rise of indivdualism.....

    Hey look at me I'm a human being, i have my rights, aint I special, and my kids they are even more special, I tell them every day!

    What u mean by oxymoron .... I'm hungry, pass me the beef, what u mean, I'm not a bloody animal, I have rights, ofcourse I'm superior to an animal you weirdo :)

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    The cult of woke now moving in on Python

    > The Python Steering Council has decided to suspend a core Python developer for three months for alleged Code of Conduct violations.

    What bothers me is the hypocrisy and malice of those who claim to promote goodness and niceness. Who would have thought that a Code of Conduct would be used as a weapon to silence unconventional viewpoints under the pretence of protecting people from psychological harm or discrimination?

    These so-called "woke" enforcers have infiltrated every aspect of society and are now turning their attention to writing code. This situation resembles a Maoist struggle session, where accusations are so vague that it's nearly impossible to defend oneself. The only ones truly creating an atmosphere of fear are the members of this Code of Conduct committee.

    --

    ps: elReg editors: I'm all triggered here /s

    1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

      Re: The cult of woke now moving in on Python

      Maybe your "who would have thought" was rhetorical, but I called it from the begging. It is almost impossible to establish a CoC that does not at least call for the net reduction of code quality by kicking people whose code is better than their personality.

  31. JamesTGrant Bronze badge

    Could have all been avoided by a quick chat. Something like this:

    1. Tim posts something that someone notices as potentially problematic.

    2. Ideally that someone contacts Tim and explains the effect on them.

    3. Tim acknowledges the person and they chat through what was said, what was meant, and what was understood. End of. Every one continues feeling like grown ups with greater understanding of how other people perceive things.

    Or

    3. Person asks moderator for help.

    4. Moderator calls Tim and they have a calm and grown up chat. Both realising that the sun is still shining and in 100years time we’ll all be dead. Moderator thanks Tim for his time. Tim continues, and now aware of the complaint he continues to communicate clearly but adding this new information into his thinking when posting.

  32. HenryCrun

    What's in a word

    We are doomed (please may I be wrong) if every few years we have to examine every aspect of a project under the microscope because a shift in language and unintended consequences.

    Have you read The Canterbury Tales in the original English, if so I do hope you're not easily offended by some of the language.

    Have you looked at a map of London pre-1560, there's some street names I cannot repeat in polite society (funnily enough you can find it in Wikipedia).

    Are you aware that what are considered rude 4 letter words were (mostly) pre-Norman invasion Anglo-Saxon common use words which only became considered base after 1066.

    I could go on, but I won't.

    There is no KotL (keeper of the list) for the English language, not even us British! There are nation variations of English around the world and regional variations within countries and special use cases elsewhere. There is an estimate of 170,000 English words in current usage and another 47,000 obsolete one. It's impossible to curate that lot just in case a meaning has changed over time, we just have to do our best.

    May I suggest then if a word offends you politely say so. If you are informed that another person is offended by a word then do your level best not to offend that person. This is just common decency, the kind of politeness that was once a common expectation and did need H.R. breathing down your neck like some kind of secret police.

    Honestly, I mean Belgium man[1], just be bloody well nice to each other.

    [1] Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

  33. TimMaher Silver badge
    FAIL

    Home Brew

    Why is it that every time I run an update I get a Python update?

    I don’t program in Python and I don’t intend to.

    If that happened to Rust, Java, Swift or any of the others I’d be really concerned.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Home Brew

      "every time I run an update I get a Python update"

      Sounds like someone set the "echo" bit on your machine. Might want to get it looked at.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Home Brew

      @TimMaher

      Quote: "...every time I run an update I get a Python update...."

      Quote: "...I don’t program in Python..."

      Tim:

      Have you considered the possibility that there are APPLICATIONS on your computer which need Python in order to run?

      Just a thought!!!

  34. TimMaher Silver badge
    Trollface

    Home Brew

    Why is it that every time I run an update I get a Python update?

    I don’t program in Python and I don’t intend to.

    If that happened to Rust, Java, Swift or any of the others I’d be really concerned.

  35. Tron Silver badge

    This is the tech sector.

    If the bar had been set at 2024 levels, how long would Steve Jobs have lasted at Apple?

    If you don't have a built-in woke filter, you are going to suffer in any working community nowadays. Your best bet is a degree of self-isolation. WFH is a start, but doing your own thing is probably the way to go. There have always been barriers and glass ceilings in working environments. This is just a new one. The demand for cultural purity does have a brutal downside. As with the CCP and the demand for political purity, you lose a heck of a lot of talent.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: This is the tech sector.

      "If the bar had been set at 2024 levels, how long would Steve Jobs have lasted at Apple?"

      If the bar had been set at 2024 levels, the Homebrew Computer Club would never have existed, and by extension the whole of Silly Con Valley would not have existed as we know it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This is the tech sector.

        " the Homebrew Computer Club would never have existed,"

        what a wonderful flashback I have to being 12-years old and looking on at the C64s sprites. Still loved our Speccy though.

        We are lucky to have lived that. Without a doubt, one's social status was based on the games u could get, and me having an older wealthy brother who bought all the latest, I was given free coffees for a year. No 10p for me, no sir.

        Smell the CRTs as the overheat and start cooking the plastic cases with burning hotspots in special hidden places to tease your fingers.

        Tell that to kids these days and they say 'shut up u old fart.' So I fart and then shut up. Try it.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Iv e been rumbled

    What a roll call. Defo bingo called there.

    Admit it. There is a small part of you that chuckled at the chap's extensive repertoire of offences and his/her/whateve's determination to ignore all the 'girls' having hissing fits cause they arent as good a Core Developer Chad here.

    He isn't even bothered. "Yes, use my name, I don't give a F, and a massive F OFF to the lot of them ... bloody 'ossers."

    I hope he starts a GoFundMe page and I will give.

  37. This post has been deleted by its author

  38. VeryRealHuman
    Flame

    "Wokeism" or just plain bad?

    I feel like many a commenter here decided to jump to conclusions about the world being overrun by Thin-Skinned Woke Leftists or whatnot.

    Hear me out, what if the committee is indeed stupid and made a bad decision BUT expecting people to be decent to each other isn't a terrible idea?

    They should've talked to the guy and maybe given him a few days' worth at most to cool down and reflect. He doesn't seem to actually have committed anything *that* damning.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yes.

      Expecting people to be decent to each other isn't a terrible idea.

      A CoC is not a vehicle that does, or even can, get close to that state. That's what people assume it says on the tin, but it's not what it's for.

      That whole bunch of commissars should not exist at all, nor should an obtuse, mealy-mouthed document that purports to codify this "being decent to each other". Which it cannot, therefore does not.

      Communities without CoCs or commissars, woke or otherwise, do have their implicit and informal ideas of what "being decent to each other" looks like and will call each other on it, or call out mistaken callers, or whatnot. Meaning that these vehicles are superfluous, certainly not essential, to most communities.

      So the very basic fact of letting the CoC and its commissars run the community means the community has succumbed to woke and is no longer about what it was originally set up for, nor is being decent to each other even an option on the table any longer. This supersedes any consideration of whether the infractions the commissars went after fit within the community's erstwhile standards of being decent to each other or not.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Wokeism" or just plain bad?

      "expecting people to be decent to each other"

      This is a grossly false strawman and you should be ashamed of it.

  39. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Joke

    Incubation Period

    Depending on species, the incubation period of Python eggs may reach 90 days. Were the Python Steering Council influenced by that figure when setting the suspension period?

  40. Nintendo1889

    Links to offensive comments? Otherwise this is bs

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So you are hiring up a commercial dev team...

    ..for a language compiler / runtime libs, IDE etc for a rich feature language with a formal grammar / full functional spec etc who are you going to bring in to interview based on their resumes.

    The guy getting benched for three month. Not just automatic senior dev position offer but the sort of guy you could hand off the implementation of a major subsystem without any worries and you'll get all the status / progress reports you need over afternoon coffee. And when its delivered (final beta) it just works. If the project budget was big enough then give him his own separate dev team to implement one big chunk of the project and thats one less headache to worry about. He sounds like the sort of guy who always delivers what he agrees to. Dev team gold.

    Of the five on the steering committee. Three look like they could be brought in for the in-person interviews. One or two might be senior(ish) level but sound more like solid mid-level guys, You hand off items for them to implement but keep and eye on them (at least initially) to make sure they keep on track. But they all should work out and one or two sound like they might have real senior potential for big projects.

    The last two. One sounds like the sort of person you find at the lower end of middle management in large tech companies. A "Group Something Manager" job title. Might be good for dealing with the rest of the company. Maybe not. Maybe a project / product manager who could be trusted to also take care of the builds, build management and their distribution to QA etc. Probably would not bring in for an interview. Rather have someone with more solid sounding management / tech skills. The final one sounds like a fairly typical mid / big tech company project manager. But based on resume not the sort of person to risk a high profile project on. But run of the mill low complexity projects should work out OK. Just fine. But not a serious heavy lift dev team person by the sound of it.

    Guess which of the five members of the steering committee mentioned anything other than technical subjects in their election pitch. Who mention inclusiveness and diversity. Yes, the last two. Plus one of the seemingly tech competent ones. The one who looked like they have probably the weakest dev team resume of the three.

    So. Any surprises here?

    Not really. For anyone who has been in the big project development team trenches for any amount of time. Nothing new here. Same old story.

  42. jamdev12

    Language is not very precise and we are animals after all

    So I will attribute all of this to the two other things that are true, besides taxes and death. The way we communicate is not perfect and even if it was, we are speaking to other humans as humans.

    At the end of the day, your work folks are not your buddies. These people are not your pals. Talk to everyone at your work with a corporate filter. Does it suck? Absolutely. Does that mean I can't have meaningful conversations and relationships with others that I work with? Not necessarily, but you better vet them out before showing your true self. As for all others, just use a corporate filter. If others at your job want to get to know you as friends, be weary. Yes there are some who want to get on your good side for personal gain, or to rat you out. Is this most people, no, but do you really want to take that chance?

    1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

      Re: Language is not very precise and we are animals after all

      I cannot fault your advice, except to say that it is far, far more mentally taxing for some of us than you can imagine. And--this was an open source project, not a corporation.

  43. osxtra

    Kurt Vonnegut Was Right

    Seems we're easing our way into the society elicited in Harrison Bergeron.

    While it's certainly not OK to denigrate folks based on body attribute 'x', it's equally not OK to denigrate them for their own personal beliefs, unless they try to force those beliefs on others.

    (I may, say, believe anyone from Oregon should be shot on site. Sure, it's a stupid opinion, but unless I start trying to carry it out, it's just that: A stupid opinion. There are many such dumb thoughts out there in the world.)

    Perhaps future US cabinets will include not only a Handicapper General, but a Speak Nicely General as well.

    So far as conversation goes, if only folks would grow a pair; metaphorically speaking, of course.

    You don't like certain words flung at you? If they're true as applied to you, then you have no cause for complaint. But, if they're not true, either ignore them as you prefer, or sue in Civil Court for libel or slander as needed.

    (Also, while you're of course free to engage in dialog with the 'offending' party and try to come to accord, just because someone may have a right to speak, doesn't mean you have to listen.)

    Actions or threats, however are different a different respons. If they're not against you, again you have no cause for complaint, though you're well within your right to inform the police of these activities, should they not already be aware.

    But if they are true, (bodily or personal property threats, carried out or not) that's where the police, and then Criminal Court comes in.

    I have never in my life denigrated anyone, called them an idiot 'just because', or said someone was stupid merely for what they said. One must have faith that in a conversation the other party is attempting to honestly communicate, not just spew without reason. I have certainly never contemplated bodify harm on anyone just because they differed in opinion from me.

    Can exchanges become heated? Of course, if one is passionate with regards their subject.

    I may become vociferous in trying to get to the bottom of an issue or point of contention, but like the old adage goes, hate the messege, not the messenger.

  44. Rosuav

    Typo correction please

    I appreciate El Reg's thorough and accurate reporting, and I respect you guys a lot, so please don't take this as hating on your article. My name is "Chris Angelico" though, not "Angeligo", and I'd love it if you could fix what was almost certainly a simple typo! Thanks!

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