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Gattaca (1997) is a dystopian science fiction movie set sometime in the mid-21st century. Mankind is doing a lot of manned space exploration. Genetic engineering and zygote selection have eliminated major and minor genetic problems, from mental illness to baldness. As a smiling black man who works as a eugenics counselor explains to a pair of prospective parents, the children produced by these techniques “are still you, just the best of you.”
In the world of Gattaca, everyone is attractive, clean-cut, and dressed in elegant business suits. They drive cool, retro-looking electric cars, listen to classical music, dine in fine restaurants, and live in multi-million-dollar lofts and beach houses in Marin Country. The space agency, called Gattaca, is headquartered in Frank Lloyd Wright’s Marin County Civic Center building, which will look futuristic even centuries from now.
It sounds pretty utopian to me. But writer-director Andrew Niccol wants to convince us that it is a totalitarian hell.
Gattaca is the story of Vincent Freeman (Ethan Hawke), whose name could only be more symbolic if they just called him Victor Freeman. Vincent is the guy who is going make free will triumph over determinism.
Vincent is a naturally conceived child in a world in which such births have become rare. As soon as Vincent is born, a blood sample is taken, and his parents are informed that he will likely suffer from various mood disorders and die of a heart attack by the age of thirty. It is a bit heavy to lay on a woman who has just gone through labor, but Niccol wants us to hate these people.
From the moment of birth, Vincent is treated as an invalid. In fact, the whole society is constructed around the distinction between the genetically Valid, namely the engineered, and In-Valid—get it? get it?—namely, those conceived naturally. The Valids are privileged, and the In-Valids are oppressed. Vincent’s mother coddles him and doesn’t want him to play outside. His father tells him not to dream about going into space with a bum ticker. Both parents also invest more emotionally in their younger son, Anton, who was genetically selected and tweaked before birth.
Okay, let’s pause here for a moment to let this sink in. For a society that values intelligence, there’s something rather stupid about this.
First, the idea of a caste system between Valids and In-Valids makes no sense. A society that values eugenics values science and objective merit. Such a society would know that among the so-called In-Valids, you would find people of superlative intelligence, health, beauty, creativity, and other excellences, at pretty much the rate that we find them among naturally conceived people today. Thus the idea that In-Valids would be subjected to crass discrimination and oppression is simply an attempt to brand eugenics as an arbitrary, evil form of discrimination, like “racism” against black people (which isn’t that unreasonable either, to be honest, but White Nationalists prefer racially homogeneous societies where such discrimination is made impossible.).
Second, there’s no doubt that genes determine our potentials. And, as the Director of the Gattaca space agency, played by Gore Vidal, says, “Nobody exceeds his potential. If he does, it simply means we did not gauge it accurately to begin with.” This is true. Our potential is what we can do. What exceeds our potential is what we can’t do. We can’t do what we can’t do.
But there are several factors being left out here.
Our potential is the outer limit of what we can do. But how many people get anywhere near those outer boundaries? Thus knowing potentials is not the same as knowing life outcomes.
Our genes aren’t the only things that determine our potential. You might have genes to make you a star athlete, but you don’t have the potential to do that if you are paralyzed in a car accident.
Why are these people so cocksure that they can gauge people’s potential accurately? In Gattaca, Vincent, the Director, and Vincent’s love interest Irene (Uma Thurman) all do things that they “can’t” do, which means that their potential has not been gauged accurately. But a society that values science and objective merit would not permit such smugness and the injustices and waste of resources it would inevitably cause.
In the society of Gattaca, genetic testing has basically eliminated the job interview, the curriculum vitae, and the letter of recommendation—as if your genes are your only qualification, regardless of the maturation, education, experience, and character that you have acquired over your lifetime.
Granted, one can weed out some applicants based on genetic grounds. The lame, the halt, and the blind can’t do certain jobs. Astronauts can’t have weak hearts. Surgeons can’t be blind. Conductors can’t be deaf.
But once you eliminate gross disabilities, other factors beyond genetic potential become relevant. For instance, some people who can do a job may not want to. A society that overlooks such factors is stupid, not smart—scientistic, not scientific.
Let’s look at the case of Vincent. Vincent is apparently highly intelligent, but he is told that he is fit only for manual labor because of—get this—his weak heart. Yes, it is that stupid. In the real world, of course, a highly intelligent young man with a weak heart might be shunted into the precise job that Vincent ended up in: a programmer at the space agency.
If Vincent really had a bad heart, no amount of training could fix it. In fact, such training could kill him. But one has to wonder: Wouldn’t the world of Gattaca also have the technology to fix heart defects or simply replace defective hearts with lab-grown transplants?
No matter how much Vincent dreams of going into space, he can’t be an astronaut if he has a bad heart. That is not an unreasonable or tyrannical requirement. Astronauts have to deal with enormous stress. An astronaut who dies of heart failure may cost the lives of his fellow crewmen. Astronauts are also very expensive to train.
Vincent, however, decides that he is going to cheat his way into space. We are supposed to think this is inspiring, but it is deeply unethical. Vincent buys the identity of Jerome Eugene (get it?) Morrow, played by Jude Law. (Two years later, Law’s identity is simply stolen in The Talented Mr. Ripley.) Eugene is genetically Valid. He has a stratospherically high IQ and is a phenomenal athlete. Or at least he was until a botched suicide attempt left him paraplegic. Eugene is now a self-pitying drunk.
Jerome had a much better genetic hand dealt him than Vincent, but he played it poorly. Vincent had a worse hand, but he plays it well. Of course, how well we can play our cards is also, arguably, a genetic card that is dealt us. But how well we actually play them is another thing. No matter how comprehensive and fine-grained genetic determinism may be, I see people exercising more or less agency, more or less wisdom, in making something out of what nature makes them into. And as for those who think they can predict those results with a blood test, well, something in my blood tells me we would be fools to believe them.
To pass himself off as Jerome, Vincent needs to go to ridiculous lengths, because the world of Gattaca is a Kafkaesque police state. Vincent can’t just get a fake ID, because one’s genes are one’s ID. When Vincent walks into work every day, he doesn’t swipe his lanyard. His finger is pricked and his DNA analyzed. (Sounds unsanitary.) Vincent also has to worry about leaving hair and skin flakes at his desk, for apparently these are collected and analyzed as well. (Sounds insane.) Then there are the urine tests. Thus Vincent needs a constant supply of Jerome’s hair, skin, blood, and urine. Every morning, he has to put blood into false fingertips and strap bags of urine to his leg before going to work.
One wonders if he would have given up if they had started requiring stool samples.
The world of Gattaca is an idiocracy, not a meritocracy, eugenics as viewed by the dysgenic. We’re supposed to find it chillingly dystopian, and just because it is stupid, it doesn’t mean it’s implausible. Communism was quite stupid too, after all, but it reliably produced dystopias all over the globe.
Aside from its ludicrous dystopian elements, Gattaca does put its finger on a deep human truth that has real dramatic potential. The society of Gattaca is really quite bourgeois, meaning that everyone operates on the assumption that the best life is a long and comfortable one, and the worse thing possible is a short life, especially if one meets a violent end.
In more heroic ages, such a mentality was disdained as worthy only of slaves. In terms of Plato’s psychology, bourgeois man is ruled by his desires, meaning that desire wins out when it conflicts with other motives, such as honor. Heroic man, by contrast, is ruled by thumos—the part of the soul that responds to honor and seeks adventure and even conflict—so that when thumos conflicts with desire—even the desire for self-preservation—thumos wins out.
Vincent is told that he will live a short life and thus should take it easy, whereas he concludes that he needs to up life’s intensity. Vincent and his brother Anton play chicken by swimming out into the ocean. The chicken is the first one who turns back. Anton is engineered to be a superior athlete. He is confident that he will always win, and he always does, until one day Vincent beats him. Then, armed with a new confidence, Vincent runs away from home to fulfill his dreams.
Years later, Vincent meets his brother again and explains how he won: When he swam out, he did not save anything for the trip back. In other words, he was willing to risk death for victory. Their game of chicken was a reenactment of Hegel’s image of the beginning of history: the struggle to the death over honor.
Even though Vincent did not save anything for the trip back, he still made it back, because there’s a difference between our objective limits and our subjective sense of what those limits are. We usually can do more than we think we can, but we learn that only by disregarding what we—and others—think our limits are. Doing so requires risk, sometimes mortal risk, sometimes merely risking other people’s disapproval. But the possibility of dying should be a small thing compared to the certainty of never really living if we don’t try.
Not saving anything for the journey back also explains Vincent’s desire to go into space, heart condition or not. He wanted to get out there. He wasn’t concerned with coming back.
I will say no more about Gattaca’s plot, save that there’s a whole lot more dumbness for you to discover if you are curious, including a number of completely pointless scenes and plot twists.
Gattaca may be dumb, but it is beautiful. The cast, clothes, cars, music, sets, and production design are all first rate. I especially loved the scene in which Vincent and the rest of his crew enter their rocket ship dressed in elegant business suits.
Even though Gattaca is crude anti-eugenics propaganda, it probably didn’t do much harm. The movie was pretty much a flop, so few people saw it. Moreover, it is so dumb that it could only convince dumb people of dysgenics, and dumb people already practice dysgenics.
Beyond that, Gattaca also had eugenic effects. Co-stars Ethan Hawke and Uma Thurman met on the set, and their roles might have gotten them thinking. Not only are they good-looking, they are highly intelligent and descend from elite families. They married in 1998 and had two good-looking kids. For eugenicists, breeding well is the best revenge.
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Matt Damon’s “Elysium” much the same.
Yeah, humans with juiced DNA have it a lot better. And we should hate them for it. Or maybe we should hate their parents, who did the best for their kid they could, at the only time at which it could be done.
Also, Damon has a fight with a juiced fighter, ‘way up on some platform. He wins. Uhhh, this fight was rigged!
“They drive cool, retro-looking electric cars, listen to classical music, dine in fine restaurants, and live in multi-million-dollar lofts and beach houses in Marin Country.”
Sounds a lot like hell to me. Maybe if you are some kind of city boy it sounds like utopia.
Yes.
The author totally misses the point of the movie. Vincent wanted it more. Unrewarded genius is a platitude. Jerome, like many bright people, has so many gifts that they often wind up wasting them.
The key scene is the movie is the swimming race in the sea. Vincent beats his brother because he swims out, saving NO energy for the return. His brother holds back, because he doesn’t want to wear out and drown on the way back.
The real calamity of the quarantine and New World government to come will be the lost human potential to go for it. We’re all just little islands now, with no more dreams, except to wait our fates with the World State.
Do you really think they’re going to halt the world economy, lose all this money, and not chip us with a mandatory vaccine? And no, they do not have enough money. It’s never enough money. If you don’t know this, you don’t know rich people. There’s got to be a payoff in more than just money. Soul capture is more satisfying.
What’s really funny is how people think the 6 foot social distancing rule is to contain this hoax virus (which is really influenza). IT IS NOT.
It’s for satellite tracking, as any special forces soldier will tell you. People must be at least 6 feet apart for the satellite to identify you and your vaccine chip distinctly. THAT’S the plan. Haven’t you been following Bill Gates’ ID2020?
One thing the current Covid hysteria makes clear is that a society being technologically advanced does not necessarily mean it that science and objective merit are the fundamental principles according to which it is run.
“They drive cool, retro-looking electric cars, listen to classical music, dine in fine restaurants, and live in multi-million-dollar lofts and beach houses in Marin Country.”
Good points in the article if you want to knit pick, but I like the idea of the movie overall. Plus there was no homo crap, no ghetto trash people with stupid tatoos and pants hanging off their asses like a prison faggot, frankly, I’m not sure what the complaint is here.
The society in Gattaca obviously doesn’t value science. Science is just the reigning excuse for the rulers to act like pricks towards the deplorables. They don’t give Vincent a better heart because they don’t want him to have one, not because they can’t.
I really didn’t like Gattaca when I watched it for similar reasons. Overall I just thought what really is the point? Funny to think of a scientific society wherein a natural Gauss would be discriminated though.
You lost me at “Ethan Hawke.”
Plus, as if any further no-thank-yous were needed, the determined, talented, driven young man dreams of being… an astronaut. What is he, five years old? I guess all the jobs at the firehouse were taken? Does the Uma Thurman character dream of being a ballerina, or a princess?
Now that I think of it, it seems to me that Quentin Tarantino is the only director who’s ever been able to coax any liveliness out of Uma Thurman. In QT’s movies she’s playful and devilish and kooky and kittenish, every other time I see her she’s just a stiff good-looking mannequin. Maybe I just missed her good roles elsewhere.
But I didn’t see this Gattacca thing, is she any good in it?
“Communism was quite stupid too, after all, but it reliably produced dystopias all over the globe.”
Um. Well. Consider this:
The old Soviet Union, produced a standard of living at least an order of magnitude greater than modern “free market” countries like Mexico, India, Bangladesh, etc.etc.etc.
Compare old movies of 1970’s East Germany, with the slums of the modern third-world. No comparison, is there?
Oh, but you say that India is “socialist?” Excuse me: a society where you need to work like a dog for pennies a day, or you and your family go hungry? Where exactly did Karl Marx define that as “socialism?”
Orthodox communism was not the answer to all of man’s problems. But it was far, far from the worst that humankind has to offer. At the current time, the vast majority of the human race would KILL to have the standard of living of 1970 East Germany…
The USSR was full of Whites while India and Mexico are full of Indians and Mexicans.
There is a compilation of writings by architects and critics edited by Leland Roth, _America Builds_. It includes a couple of essays by Wright. They do not age very well. They remind me of the Roark schlock spiels in Rand’s Fountainhead. There are only a very few number of buildings that were widely respected in the Roth’s compilation. The average judgment was along the line of modern American architecture is a complete utter disaster. Nothing designed by Frank Lloyd Wright was admired by more than one of the writers half-heartedly.
The marin civic center certainly looks better than the UC Berkeley architecture school. Does anybody know why he put that stupid pyramidal tower on it? It would look at least 10X better without it.
Trevor,
I thought Gattaca was a rather smart sci-fi movie that is illustrative of the probable path that genetic engineering may take in the years to come. Sure, there were a few plot devices. But overall I thought it was a thoughtful movie that was foreshadowing what may be on humanities horizon. While at the same time demonstrating that determination and risk taking can overcome some genetic shortcomings. As long as the shortcoming is a bum heart and not an 85 I.Q.
But you forgot to mention how clever the title was. G-A-T-T-A-C-A? Get it? Guanine-Adenine-Thymine-Thymine-Adenine-Cytosine. The 4 nucleobases that make up the double helix structure of D.N.A. If you print out a list of the base pairs in human D.N.A. you will find that “word” oft repeated.
Surely you didn’t miss that rather obvious bit of cleverness. What with you being smart enough to label this a “dumb” movie and all I wouldn’t think that would get by you. Or perhaps the movie is not as “dumb” as you make it out to be. Perhaps you opinion is invalid.
Sulu
So it’s true, special forces soldiers are unbelievably stupid. How can I say that? Because there is no possible chance that an RFID(or any other “chip”) can be read from a satellite.
Guide to Kulchur
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTSqK1VZTw81GhzV_kVmL-A/videos
I don’t remember much of Gattaca… I remember I thought it being a disappointment at the time…. Kinda bland… But I watched it when it just came out and never again… So I don’t know… But at least I think it doesn’t have any black man – white woman coupling, as most sci-fi and fantasy movies and specially streaming series now have, so that’s a point in its favor.
I liked Gattaca, still do.
That isn’t clever. At all. It is obvious, and something midwits who overestimate their intelligence think will demonstrate how smart they are while they explain it to their 80 IQ black friend.
Well, yeah. Excellence would be rare as hell among the in-valids, same as among naturally conceived people today. Almost all of them would be useless eaters, burdens on society. Has Mr Trevor Lynch been outside recently?
There aren’t any capitalist dystopias, right? How about Nazi Germany or the current day US?
Probably the opinions of mediocre architects whose own “artistic” output wouldn’t fill even one footnote of the many laudatory monographs and articles that have been dedicated to Wright.
Eugenics is nothing but a social construct built on prejudice. It isn’t real.
You’re a moron. Your cellphone is read from a satellite every day, enabling you to use Google Maps. They’ve been tracking soldiers in the field by satellite for decades. So you think all the latest developments are revealed to you as they develop? Try reading about DARPA. THEY control the rollout of technology, not you. Yeah, so you’re a big boy who’s heard of RFID. A technology that’s been around for about 60 years. LOL.
“Nazi” Germany was not capitalist. National socialism opposes capitalism and communism, as the two sides of the same jewish coin they are. It was also not a dystopia, it was so great that the jews destroyed it so nobody else got the bright idea to kick them out and prosper.
You are entitled to your own opinion, of course. But if it was obvious I would think the author would have mentioned it.
By the way, I know my I.Q. I am in the top 2%. I also have two bachelor degrees, one of them being in science. I considered staying in academia and pursuing my Phd in Geology but I was young and hormonally driven and it seemed a lot more reasonably back then to travel the world, scuba dive, and screw beautiful women. Which I did for about 20 years. I managed to squeeze in getting my pilot’s license though. Just what are your qualifications smart guy?
And just for the record I think it was an intelligent movie and I don’t have any black friends. Plus Uma Thurman was easy to look at in 97.
Since I addressed my post to the author, and since you are posting anonymously and appear to have your feathers ruffled I wonder what the odds are that you are the author of the article and your ire stems from the fact that you didn’t understand the significance of the movie title and have come to the unsettling epiphany that you are not quite as smart as you thought?
Sulu
Ha Ha. Good point!
Sulu
Honest question: which of these points “sound like hell”?
drive cool, retro-looking electric cars,
listen to classical music,
dine in fine restaurants,
and live in multi-million-dollar lofts and beach houses
Sounds like what every Randian entrepreneur/TradCath aristo/Republican suburbanite holds dear.
Comment of the Year So Far.
Who was it — Seinfeld? — who said “If everyone could be what they wanted to be as a child, we’d live in a world of firemen, cowboys, nurses and ballerinas.”
TG the author of this , i do not even know how to call this screed , has been born and educated in a society that is scared at the mere sound of “communism” or “socialism. He knows nothing about the sobject.
In my default Leftism period, I was arguing about “socialism” with someone online and dropped the “everyone wants to live in Scandinavia” kill shot, when the reply came back: That just shows White people can make any economic system works, no matter how stupid in theory.
” I also have two bachelor degrees, one of them being in science. I considered staying in academia and pursuing my Phd in Geology ”
What was your science degree?
B.S. in Geology. As I said I briefly considered continuing my education and was trying to decide what I should specialize in but I had the means to travel and while doing so I got bitten by the scuba diving bug. So what started out as a vacation turned into a life changing event and I ended up living in S.E. Asia for about 20 years. It also didn’t hurt that Asia is full of cute young girls that will quite literally line up to sleep with a White man. Asian women are so much easier to deal with than the women in America. When an American woman tells you she wants a relationship that will last forever she is talking about the relationship she wants to have with your wallet. In Asia women don’t have the full weight of the federal government backing up their greed.
A couple of my old classmates continued their education and now have PhDs and tenure at leading Universities. They have got more education than me but I have about 600 dives in the Pacific ocean and have had enough travel, adventure, and tail for two lifetimes. No regrets. Well…few regrets.
Sulu
My first thought on reading his comment was exactly that.
It brought to mind Gandhi’s querulous complaint “Why should 5,000 Britons rule over 300 million Indians?”
And the response (can’t recall by whom) “We’re better than you.”
Bingo!
since it takes 3 codons to specify an amino acid, G-A-T-T-A-C-A is short 2, or has a single extra. Either way, it’s a nonsense string as DNA. So it’s not clever.
You do not comment on things that are obvious, precisely because they are obvious. Would you expect a review of “the aristrocats” to explain the title to you? No, because it is obvious. If you were actually in the top 75% like you pretend, then you would know that. You would also know that posting as anon is irrelevant, as the author could just as easily post as another pseudonym as he could as anon.
You are rectum ravaged that someone criticized a piece of jewish propaganda you are emotionally attached to. The problem there is entirely on your end, stop being emotionally attached to stupid, frivolous shit. Find things with real value, and then your emotional attachments can be to those meaningful things instead media.
But hey, Uma Thurman had boobs, so any criticism of the movie is obviously wrong.
Well, Chris, so what?
The sliest way hell advertises itself is by being labeled as its opposite. It widely works. Be happy it hasn’t worked with you.
Ah what a consolation in these troubled times, that Greg Johnson has still time to shill for Hollywood (under his pen name “Trevor Lynch”) and is not entirely consumed by trotting out the stupid official version of the Convid-19-hoax-story, all in the name of “science” of course. As it might be of importance that those who rule over science are jews, it might be important that those who rule over Hollywood are jews as well. But such minor details have never interested Mr. Johnson.
Btw. I saw this movie as a teenager and found it boring (someone has already commented how childish and vulgar the ambition of the protagonist was to become an astronaut). The only fun thing I can remember is Nyman’s version of the beautiful Schubert Impromtu for 12 fingers (haha, this will out-snob wannebe-Brit-snob Johnson) .
Don’t be thick. The entire movie was about DNA so the writer decided to put the nucleobases in a string that spelled out the word of the title just to be clever. That was the entire point of it. Nothing more. Just to see if people were paying attention. I don’t even have a biology background. Just basic first year biology that every science major was required to take at my University. But I still got it.
Sulu
Your English comprehension is lacking. I didn’t say I was in the top 75%. I’m in the top 2%. Better go back an re-read my post. And I care not one particle if some web troll like you believes me or not. Judging by your writing skill, or lack thereof, you are an uneducated person. And it’s pretty clear you didn’t understand the significance of the title, which is why you are so butt hurt about it. My science degree wasn’t even in biology but I got it. But I guess it takes a little education. Which you obviously lack.
I also don’t need your guidance as to what to like or not like. Yes, I know this movie is the product of Jewish Hollywood but I found it intelligent and the title was clever. Most of the movies from Hollywood are crap. This one was an exception.
If you would bother to read some of my other posts you will find that I am not a fan of the Jews. But even a clock that doesn’t run is right twice a day.
And, if you are male but didn’t find Uma Thurman attractive, you might as well admit you are a fag and go have the operation.
Sulu
“And I care not one particle…”
“Judging by your writing skill, or lack thereof…”
I’m just gonna let those two little gems sparkle quietly in the sunlight for a bit.
“You might as well admit you are a fag and go have the operation.”
OK, which one of you knuckleheads fell asleep and left the GammaTron-9000 running all night? You know how that thing overheats if you don’t keep an eye on it. Somebody could wind up burning this whole blog down if you’re not careful.
signed,
Chester the Fire-safety Gorilla
Hey Germ,
Funny how you chose to misquote my last sentence. It should have read,”And, if you are male but didn’t find Uma Thurman attractive, you might as well admit you are a fag and go have the operation.”
Misquoting someone, either intentionally or unintentionally does not in any way add to your credibility.
Do you suppose anonymous can’t defend his own tepid bullshit without your misquotation?
Sulu
I’m not sure if this was meant to be funny but it is.
“a stiff good-looking mannequin” perfectly describes her performance in Gattaca
A defense of Eugenics? Really? Smacks me as a bit of preprograming since the Eugenicists are in control of the world today. They had to rename themselves because the Nazis hurt the brand, so now hide behind labels like genetics, planned parenthood and sustainable development. They use environmental toxins like EMR, Vaccines, Drugs, Glyphosate , GMO foods, etc to reduce fertility, weed out the weak genes and increase natural selection pressures with a few fake pandemics thrown in to accelerate the demise of the elderly and sick and drive the younger folks at the bottom of the food chain to suicide or alcoholism. But maybe some day they come out of the closet with enough programming.
A weirdo movie.
Video Link
I Loved this movie,
as a kid it scared me a lot to see what the future looked like, especially that I was
one of those kids that felt part of the invalids.
About 2 months ago I found it on one of the movie channels, and the Director
looked very much like a certain author and historian (the emperor), I was not
even aware he was also an actor, wow
I found her kind of interesting in a movie called “Beautiful Girls” from 1996. The movie also has a weirdly sexualized Natalie Portman early role.
She was “meh” in QT movies.
Hmmmmm . . .
I am unsure how to respond to an article that buts heads with the ‘actual’ societies that have entrenched class base systems.
There are so many finely tuned arguments or observations in the film, that make the case — one of my favorite is
that once you are accepted into the fold, as one of the in crowd — the in crowd stops assessing whether or you belong you just do. They would ignore, discount, justify your disqualifying characteristics because they wouldn’t want to acknowledge that the system is flawed. I think the reverse is also the case. disqualification for not being accepted – regardless of potential or achievement. And engaging in any and all measures to justify the matter.
Neither the boo nor the film are dumb. They are clear and perhaps, too obvious a series of critiques about where the HBD builders intend to take us.
Another observation — the non-violent dna, does not rule out violence as the result of ambition, jealousy, self interest, competing agendas . . .
‘self professed not a violent bone in my body’ turns out to ct out in violence ending in murder.. I think the critic here has been tripped by his own agenda because even his own contends to some extent make the point of the film. Note: the genetics that determine skin color are no by definition those that establish potential in cognitive processes and more importantly, one can enhance their cognitive ability by engaging in activities that stimulate that sphere. He did not out swim his brother because he held nothing back —
He outswam his brother because he repeatedly worked his body to prepare for the swim. He fails the fitness exam on the treadmill. But still managed to outperform the director in plotting the most efficient course for his ship.
His counterpart however, despite being genetically capable of swimming to gold – failed and upon failing falls into a life of disrepair. As I recall, he doesn’t choose to work at improvement — he walks in front of car. Suppose he ha worked even harder to improve on his already supposedly superior genetics – we don’t know — because so many factors determine potential, some seemingly unrelated.
I thin e can examine our societies, large and small and find these observations to be in play.
Fun factlet: the car Alan Arkin drives in the movie is a slightly modified Rover 2000:
Claiming to be in the top 2% is by definition also claiming to be in the top 75%, a much more believable, but still obviously false claim. The fact that you need this explained to you proves again that you are not in the top 75%. There is no significance in the title, it is simply a nonsense word made up of the letters available in nucleic acid notation of DNA. Repeating “I am so smart that I noticed the thing that was so obvious even movie reviewers didn’t need to point it out” isn’t making you look more intelligent. How does “the presence of a pair of tits you would like to see doesn’t make a film good” say anything about the attractiveness of the owner of those tits? That seems like a really dumb mistake to make for someone in the top 2% of intelligence,
If you’re non-black but your eugenics counselor is not, you’re in the wrong building.
“It was a flop, few people saw it”
I saw it in school. In a biology class. Propaganda is right.
Hate to be pedantic, but I’m geneticist and can’t let this slide. One codon = one amino acid (or translation stop signal).
Look up the genetic code.
GAT = aspartic acid
TAC = tyrosine
Sulu sez: “I’m in the top 90%! HONEST!”
Clearly yet another long-discredited semitic canard.
Sad!
It might save you some time in the future if you were to use this the next time you feel compelled to engage in meaningless anon boastpoasting, btw.
the reviewer belittles bourgeois life, and describes it as “utopia” at the same time. pretty funny.
this is a common trope with nu-right types: they can’t decide whether they want traditional, healthy, sustainable societies (which necessitates horses, low tech, hands-on farming, and probably some kind of monarcho-feudalism), or just modernity without the niggers.
Hi Dave: You never made a truer or more relevant comment. Mr TL has been self quarantining for the past several decades his goal being to break Rip Van Winkle’s record. I rarely look at Hollywood movies as they are for the most part trash and thus a waste of my time. I always find it comical to read some review and have them discuss the show and actors as if they were talking about Shakespeare. In the 70’s I got into a conversation with a producer and lamented the fact that TV and Hollywood produced the most astonishing nonsense. He just laughed and told me “TV and Hollywood does not do business for the intelligent few but for the ignorant masses”.
Last night I got on Y/Tube to see how to change the oil on my bike. There on the front page the following video clips were being promoted:
-They eat dog food for breakfast-40M views
-This smiling puppy is adorable-20M views
-This rabbit just found out he was adopted- I forget how many million views as I just moved on.
From people eating laundry detergent to dogs who can take a dump in the toilet and flush the “intellectual” class of today (and thus the forerunners of the super smart of tomorrow) spend their lives looking dumbly at sheer garbage. I remember when I was in the Corporate world we shut down a plant in the 1980’s due to tough times. One employee I knew well, lamented the fact that it was so unfair to be thrown out of work. Yet this fellow had spent the past 40 years in a menial job in the factory. Every day he went home, got out the beers and looked at endless detective and comedy shows for 6 hours straight and that included the commercials. Is he unique ?
I look around me today and have to say stupidity and ignorance is the common characteristic of society. So superlative intelligence, beauty and all that ? Yes, well it makes sense to me that since intelligence has plummeted in the past 50 years or so it will reverse course and we will be blessed with people of superior intelligence to lead us into a bright utopia.
I believe this, because the producers in Hollywood said so and even made a movie about it.
I don’t know who this other anonymous is, but the gamma is strong in him.
“she’s just a stiff good-looking mannequin”
You can find Uma’s best performance as a mannequin in Jennifer 8 (1992).
I’m not smart enough to know if Gattaca is dumb. But it sure is boring.
“beach houses in Marin County”
Most of the beach houses in Marin are the trailers at Dillon Beach.
Always the odd man out, I wanted to be a pilot. My inspiration was the Howard Borden character from The Bob Newhart Show.
ohhh good grief,
Hollywood is comprised on all sorts, not the least of which are those whose motives are geared to make money , money which is used to make more films and no small percentage of those films are not view by the masses. I was just watching House of Games and Communion this week — neither block busters in my view or , but both with great performances, and very intriguing story lines.
If blockbuster — eaten by the masses was any rel singular determinant of a ‘good film’ one would have slobber all over “Boyhood.”
GATTACA is not a great film and Hollywood produces a lot of damaging material, but GATTACA is a very good film for various reasons — despite the obvious issues and Hollywood also manages to make to deeply important an meaningful films
One of the most creative and uplifting films I watched this year was film called
“Lifted” in which the performances were sincere as opposed to wonderful and the storyline and plot creatively told with a an unexpected and deeply moving end.
An Evolutionary Step?
Is it not possible that the ability of humanity to perfect his own DNA is just the next step in evolution? It may be a critical fork in the road for sentient beings between self destruction and survival. A race of genetically perfected, super intelligent, disease and psychosis free humans might survive as a peaceful continuing species. It is science fiction but then there is CRISPR and who knows what else we don’t know about.
Kind of sad i cant watch any movie nowadays, loved Gattaca back then because we could not connect the plot to reality like now. I see conditioning and programming everywhere when i want to watch a movie now, always have to end after few minutes.
Sure the question is the plot concidence or conditioning, we know who runs hollywood.
Same people try to manage our whole life and order what we have to think. Education, school system, medicine school, food and entertainment, is there anything left which is not influenced and defined by those?
Just done reading this one here from a comment on Rappoports blog
https://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/blog/five-covid-19-reflections-from-a-food-system-perspective-and-how-we-could-take-action/
Worth the read, the future of our food.
They define everything in our life.
Did Hollywood think CRUISING would be a bit hit? Extreme subject made by a big-name director.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVrZZHf_Jlk
Video Link
I watched GATTACA long ago at the recommendation of others. It’s a smart-seeming sci-fi that hasn’t really through all the implications. A far more interesting sci-fi movie with Ethan Hawke is the truly wicked PREDESTINATION. All said and done, GATTACA was meant as a message movie, and despite bits of sophistication, is ultimately reductive to a single point. In contrast, PREDESTINATION takes a crazy premise and goes where it leads. It is driven by curiosity than pedantry. GATTACA would have been much better minus the simple-minded message that has a Truman-Show effect. No matter what happens, all roads must lead to the message. Even if the message is something we might agree with, it’s the way of propaganda than art or superior entertainment.
The review is marred by its assumptions. It wonders why the seemingly utopian eugenic world in the movie is so dumb and ridiculous about certain matters. But GATTACA is thoroughly dystopian, and the point is no amount of advanced technology and thinking can alter the fact that humans will be driven by bias, prejudice, contradictions, and taboos. As such GATTACA isn’t so much about the future but here and now. Every social/political order in the 20th century that claimed to be ‘scientific’ and ‘rational’ had their own biases and failings, even spectacular ones. We are told the West is ‘liberal democratic’ but fails on so many levels in living up to those principles.
The review wants to see the society in the movie as utopian than dystopian and then complains that it fails to live up to presumably ‘white nationalist’ and elitist ideals. But such perspective is so far removed from the intentions of the clearly dystopian movie, the point of which is no amount of human planning and engineering can eradicate the human factor. In some ways, this futility is ‘tragic’ because the perfectibility of humans will always be a pipe-dream, but in another way, it is hopeful because it implies that the essence of humanness isn’t perfectibility but the humanist acceptance of our limits and even our flaws — but then, the movie undermines this humanist viewpoint by fixating so much on the cult of achievement; thus, the message becomes contradictory as it implies (1) even imperfect In-valids have value simply for being human and (2) In-valids are actually super-cool cuz they can actually outperform the Valids if given a chance, i.e. the message is at once anti-superiorist and neo-superiorist. (One thing for sure, without human failings, there would no need for stories, esp tragedies, as everyone would always do the right thing.) Also, there will always be the X-factor, the mystery that cannot be unlocked by reason alone; it is the mystery from which a special kind of genius flows. (In TRON LEGACY, we learn that Flynn began building a virtual world based purely on reason but a different kind of creativity burst forth from deeper wells within inaccessible to reason. It’s like Athena sprung from a part of Zeus that even he didn’t know existed.)
Where the movie is rather dumb is it focuses on physical contest — the swimming competition — than creative one. After all, the more athletic and more intelligent are almost always superior to the less athletic and less intelligent. Sure, there are cases like when Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson, but physical competition is pretty much clear cut. Where the human element is most mysterious is in creativity. Blacks are said to be less intelligent in general but have been very creative in certain forms of musical expression. Some of the greatest artists, esp in fine arts, were not the brightest bulbs in the room. In many cases, heightened creativity was associated with what we might deem as character flaws or psychological issues. If Vincent van Gogh had been bio-engineered to be normal and happy, could he have become the great artist? If Beethoven had been bio-engineered to be more sociable and happier in temperament, would he have been the great composer fueled by obsessive and gloomy passions? Many musicals scholars are very smart and erudite, but they lack the creative spark. In contrast, Lennon and McCartney had no formal training, pretty much dropped out of school, and couldn’t even read musical notation. And yet, they changed music history. Hendrix couldn’t read musical notes either.
So, if GATTACA really wanted to make its point, it should have focused on creativity where the X factor plays a key role. What we deem as ‘flaws’ in most walks of life can be an advantage in creativity. This seems the case with homos. Homosexuality is biologically useless. And homo personality seems a confusion of male and female traits, and it wouldn’t be surprising if homos score higher on the amorality scale, like the talented Ripley guy. And yet, the combination of male aggression and feminine finesse seems to make for an acute creative sensibility.
Now, the thing about saving no energy while swimming out to sea. That is just dumb. It says nothing of the adventurous spirit of the West. It’s true, the West put the man on the moon but ONLY AFTER taking precautions to bring him and his crew back to Earth. Columbus set sail with confidence that he would make it to India. He wasn’t just risking everything for the hell of it. The triumph of the West owed less to the spirit of men like Alexander the Great with to-hell-and-back mentality. After all, the Orient also produced men without sense of limits: Genghis Khan and Muhammad who wanted to conquer as much as possible. The Western breakthrough came from the combination of curiosity, adventurousness, and, last but not the least, the power of rational calculation. Plan things out in advance and try to fix as many bugs as possible. Without such calculation, you end up with something like Hitler’s invasion of Russia or Mao’s insane Great Leap Forward, an act of economic adventurism without peer in history.
The swimming match in GATTACA is something that can happen ONLY in the movies. It is so ludicrous that it ill-serves the message. Making a general point by what seems an impossible feat really belongs in fantasy or fairy-tales, not a sci-fi social satire.
There is a Kubrickian element in GATTACA, but then it’s been the theme of many sci-fi films. Kubrick’s films are essentially ‘dystopian'(even among non-sci-fi works) because they are usually about people who hatch a perfect plan, only to see it unravel by the most innocuous things or the weakest element. It is the dog that undoes the plan in THE KILLING. The childlike Major Kong undoes all the elaborate calculations and negotiations to thwart WWIII. HAL is beaten by a human without a helmet in 2001. Barry Lyndon is brought low by the pathetic mama’s boy, who seemed a mere nuisance as well as weakling.
Likewise, in GATTACA the perfectionist conceits of the system are laid bare by a mere In-Valid. The difference is Kubrick understood the X-factor to be outliers, not the rule. In other words, 99 times out of a 100, the plan would likely work, but no plan can be a perfect plan because man and man-made systems will always have errors or fail to foresee every possibility.
In contrast, GATTACA deduces a general rule from an outlier. It’s like pretending that two swallows do make a summer.
The Message has a way of undermining complexities. This was true enough in MINORITY REPORT, which is impressive and thought-provoking in many ways. But Spielberg just had to end it on a note of hope and compassion. Now, we are glad to see the Precogs released and living independent lives. And it’s good that the culprit was finally exposed and brought down. Still, without the pre-crime system in place, street crime and violence have surely returned to Washington D.C., and that should be part of conclusion, but Spielberg just wanted a heart-warming message with a happy ending.
Yep, despite being a nice theme for a film, Gattaca was really dumb. Some other really dumb things besides the ones you mentioned: He scrubbed his skin maniacally before going to work so as not to give off flakes — but you shed tens of thousands of skin cells every hour. The medical science was so advanced that they could EXTEND HIS LEGS via a home procedure, but they couldn’t fix his heart?
“Did Hollywood think CRUISING would be a bit hit? Extreme subject made by a big-name director.”
I have not checked the link, but I think Cruising was about men having relations with men and seriel killing of the same. And I think it was considered “cutting edge” or some such thing. Never saw it. There’s enough same sex relational material in mainstream films — well too much for me. An I just watched a film in which it came out of nowhere —- uuuuggggggggggg!
The box office gross was roughly 20,000,000.00. I have no idea whether that would be a hit in the period shown. The cast were all successful names in film. It is currently under development in a remake . At the time it was controversial and had national if limited protests.
I like Hollywood, I should have made that leap perhaps . . . I am kneenly aware that their politics and my own is almost always going to be diametrically opposites. I am also keenly aware that they can be dangerous on multiple levels and know that producers, writers, actors, etc . . . are not be definition on the same team.
—————————
I like GATTACCA it poses some creative perspectives on some very basic themes. At the end of the day the society in place wins as nearly no one ever makes it out the casts they are created to play. There is no mass uprising against the system — just one guy who slips in to become one of them. And in my view that is the way . . . if you make it in, very few are set upon unpending or even pressed to make minor corrections to ferret out its imperfections. Take the author, he singles this film out as some kind of attack of the genetic constructed world — when in fact all it does is highlight getting in, and doing so using the systems strength as weaknesses or mechanisms for the same. propaganda – sure — film is a communication medium whose purposes are to message meanings.
I have listened to women bemoan how misogynistic crime films are based on the treatment of women . . . when in fact those films do just the opposite. They elicit sympathy, anger, a demand for justice on behalf of women because we consider violence against women, children and most animals worthy of retribution. propaganda — you bet. In fact, I recently watched Sudden Impact —
I love Sondra Locke (I blew my assessment of her and remain guilt ridden about it) – But in that film she and her sister are brutalized by a gang, Inspector Callahan’s find is killed, but on top of that — that hurt his dog —
The women are avenged, the dog is avenged and they survive. The friend, constant in the early day of Mr. Eastwood’s films gets killed without so much as seen to have put up a fight — despite the inevitable — whether he does or not. Released in 1984 it grossed 67,000,000.00.
Time, and space matter and films that tell the story of vengeance for women just play better even in the period of female and same sex practitioners empowerment. I am aware that my examples are but a tiny tiny smidge of the number of films by which one should lean to make a solid case for my contend.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the next version of cruising. Now that the closet appears to be wide open. Note — men are the primary victims of crime. Less than 1% of women will ever come close to experiencing a rape, but few politicians hesitate to blather on about the “rape culture”. And in the background, the worst —— black as the prime perpetrators, but a break down of the numbers — a very tiny minuscule percentage. But what sells matters in film, if if what sells is a tiny bit of reality.
—————
granted GATTACA is speculative but not a film without warranted evidence
Plenty of 2-4 million houses at Stinson Beach and there’s a similar development a few miles further north. Then there’s Stinson Beach’s gated Community Sea Drift.
Thanks. It might be helpful to add the bases in as well for people who don’t know the terminology.
So three bases = one codon = one amino acid (or translation stop signal).
Una left Ethan Hawke because of persistent and blatant, humiliating, hurtful adultery. At least she got 2 kids out of it. Lost a lot in the finances because she was always a higher earner than he.
Lennon and McCarthy both graduated from Quarry Road Grammar School. Grammar Schools were not elementary schools. They were were the English state school version of an American academic public high school. Entrance was merit only by passing the 11 plus exam. Lennon attended a community college.
The Grammar schools were later abolished because blacks and browns consistently failed, badly failed the 11 plus exams and thus were not accepted at the Grammar schools.
Rings Starr was the only trained musician. He’d spent time as a child in a TB hospital. The hospital had all sorts of programs for the kids. That’s where he was musically trained.
Have you seen The Walking Dead….wow…..talk about race mixing…..the writers of that show want white skin and blue eyes gone!!!
From the Beatles bio, Lennon never applied himself in school and just barely graduated. The reason he attended art school because more ne’er-do-wells ended up there, and he quit that to become a rocker.
Granted, Lennon was highly intelligent even if ill-educated.
She bred
….trained in gorilla warfare…
“I once killed a man with a banana.”
LULZ.
Not only those, but people having their fingers pricked on a daily basis to read their identities would get old after Day One.
All sci-fi films lack that something special. What’s the French phrase… Je ne sais quoi!
I think you have confused race and history in with your answer. It is not right to say communism is good because look at the East Germans compared to India, you need to compare East Germany to what East Germany could have been with another model. And on that level it is not all that great.
You are an obvious troll and as an added bonus you don’t appear too bright. What’s the matter? Are you an incel? Is that why you are so pissed at the world? Are you ugly and not getting any tail. I could post a few nude pictures of some of my exes, but I promise you it won’t help your confidence level one bit.
The top 2% is a subset of the top 75%. You failed set theory. Or more likely never took it. But it’s really irrelevant because you were claiming I posited I was in the top 75%. Which is something I never said so you were wrong from the start
Instead of railing on about how unintelligent you assume I am why don’t you tell me about your educational background? Is there some reason you never mention it? And as for you doubting my credentials that is just classic. Typical move from a guy that doesn’t want educational level to be part of the conversation. Don’t you think if I were lying I would claim something better than two bachelor degrees and a pilot’s license?
So tell me, since you obviously think you are so smart. How many degrees do you have? I might even be willing to give you a break if you tell me you don’t have any degrees but are in your teens. I mean I didn’t accomplish everything in a week. You might eventually accomplish something. But my guess is you are an uneducated little retard, which is why my level of education obviously chaps your ass so much. I mean if you had more education than me you would have said so in your first reply to my post. So you don’t have shit do you?
Oh, and for what it’s worth I am also well traveled. I quit counting how many times I crossed the Pacific Ocean when I got to 50 times. And I have a scuba license and about 600 dives in the Pacific Ocean, many of them being tech dives. Feel free to google that if you don’t know what tech diving is.
And I have spent about 20 years of my life in S.E. Asia. If you have never been there you would simply not believe the opportunities for sex with beautiful women that can be had there. My personal best was 4 beautiful women in one day. Well, in 24 hours. Technically it happened on two different calendar days. And I didn’t even set out to do it. It all just fell in my lap, so to speak.
My favorite movie is Blade Runner. I love the Roy Batty line, “I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe.” With me it’s quite literally true.
I’ve seen Whale sharks ascending from the abyss and even managed to touch a few of them. I have descended through a school of Great Barracuda on my way to 150ft. They stretched out as far as the eye could see. Better not be wearing any thing shinny. I have been on night dives where you could turn off your light and pass your hand through the water and watch the light of tiny bio luminescent creatures stream through your fingers. It looked like you were creating tiny stars in the darkness. And on a calm night when the sea is like a mirror you can look up and see the reflection of the moon on the surface. It waves gently with the motion of the sea. And sometimes something big will slide by just at the limit of your light’s cone of illumination. And you wonder, “What the hell was that.” It’s best not to have an overactive imagination when you are doing night dives.
I know you are going to try and doubt all of this. Because that’s all you have got. But it just makes me smile. Because I know I have had more adventure, more travel, and more tail than some bitter little internet troll like you. I hope you are young. I really do. Because if you are it means someday you might get to do some of the things I have. Assuming you have the balls.
Sulu
Boring counts as not good if that’s the way you see it.
Pretty much my take on it.
Sulu
Maybe, but also non-Randians, Democrats, many urbanites, and nonCatholics.
I don’t fit the description, yet i’d be just fine with everything in that list. Well, i probably would not like or relate to or trust my ueber-rich elite neighbors, and i would want a second home somewhere more normal.
Ok. First of all I am not Jewish. I got the idea that your post was implying that. And I will add, thank God I’m not Jewish! Genetically I’m Scottish, English, German and Dutch.
I realize that the Jews are on top right now but to me America looks very much like what Wiemar Germany must have looked like and we all know what happened there. I know that sooner or later things are going to invert and the Jews are probably going to be in trouble. As a matter of fact I really think that Hitler would never have risen to power had it not been for the 29 crash and subsequent world wide depression. And it looks like another world wide depression is on the horizon. I can’t help but wonder what will happen if half of the people in America get their houses foreclosed on all at once. I suspect it will explode because people that have nothing to lose frequently become brave and violent.
I only flamed anonymous because his very first post to me was salty as hell. I figured turn about was fair play so I replied to him in kind. I usually reserve my vitriol for use on assholes and that is what I judge him to be. It was what he deserved.
But I will ask you the same question that I asked him. If I were bullshitting my education level don’t you think I could do a bit better than two bachelor degrees? I realize that even that elevates me above the majority of people out there but so what?
Also, I only learned my I.Q. because I had a Professor that liked me and was trying to get me to do grad work that would ultimately lead to my Doctorate. I told him I didn’t think I was cut our for academia and so he revealed my I.Q. to me in an effort to assuage any doubts I might have had as to my ability. I told him I was going on vacation and I would make my decision when I got back. Unfortunately for my continued education my vacation was in S.E. Asia. For those of you that have never been it’s a sexual Disney Land with unlimited women, scuba diving and warm weather. After a 59 day stay I decided that sex and scuba was certainly more fun than more college so I ended up going back and living about 20 years of my life there. Part of it was because of all the women. Part of it was because I realized I had been living my life in an effort to live up to other peoples expectations of me and it was high time I started living the way I wanted.
And finally I will say this. I don’t mean this unkindly but, not unlike a neutered dog you people just don’t get it. I don’t care one bit if you believe me or not. From your point of view it’s meaningless because it’s the internet. It can’t be verified. I understand this. But for me it’s cathartic. From my point of view it means everything because it’s my life. When I hear people doubting my posts I just have to smile. What they are really saying is they sure as hell hope it’s not true because their life seems pretty dull by comparison.
Sulu
More like Omega. I don’t think he rates as high as Gamma.
Sulu
This movie is alright. I recall having to watch it in high school. Everyone slept through it. Clearly the intended message went over everyone’s head. But I liked it. Taught me crime does pay if you’re dedicated enough. That’s a real life lesson.
“That’s a real life lesson.”
Jury annulment (nullification): being ambitious and demonstrating skill, educational knowledge and application and hard work should not be a crime.
“That’s a real life lesson.”
Jury annulment (nullification): being ambitious and demonstrating skill, educational knowledge, and educational application and hard work should not be a crime, regardless of your potential or your dna..
…if you deny a human heart and soul, then yes.
A great movie about one of many potential futures, something much more plausible and pertinent considering advances in AI and robotics, since Gattaca was made, is Ex Machina. It’s a new dawn. A new Eden and a new Eve. This time the progenitor, man in this case versus “God,” leads with Eve the female versus Adam the male. And this Eve, unlike the first Eve of the bible, is a badass to say the least. You’re left with the implication at the movie’s conclusion that this Eve, now free as Pandora from the box, is embarking on a mission to transform the planet and destroy her progenitors just as surely as mankind murdered and mutilated their alleged progenitor. God is dead afterall, right? In the least mutilated via multiple iterations of perverted & opportunistic interpretations. I could go on and on about this excellent movie. So many thought threads, but I don’t want to spoil it. It’s superb on so many levels. Great cinema. The director and writers actually made me fall in love with her. How could you not, if you’re human?
“Thus the idea that In-Valids would be subjected to crass discrimination and oppression is simply an attempt to brand eugenics as an arbitrary, evil form of discrimination, like “racism” against black people (which isn’t that unreasonable either, to be honest, but White Nationalists prefer racially homogeneous societies where such discrimination is made impossible.).”
LOL, if everyone was white, that would take all the fun out of being a white supremacist, wouldn’t it. Who would they have to gang up against and torment? Maybe they would come up with a new caste system based upon hair color, or maybe create an elaborate system of measuring different shades of white skin color?
De gustibus non est disputandum. (I exclusively like Nordic beauty, but never found Uma pretty.)
Your behavior here suggests you’re not as smart as they told you…
And your sophomoric analysis of my posts indicate you are not as smart as you would like to be seen. I post what I want. I don’t recall asking your permission as to content.
Oh, I don’t mind blondes at all. But back in the day Uma was gorgeous. But I suppose you, being the connoisseur that you are, would have kicked her out of bed for eating crackers.
Sulu
” . . . evil form of discrimination, like “racism” against black people (which isn’t that unreasonable either, to be honest, but White Nationalists prefer racially homogeneous societies where such discrimination is made impossible.).”
Then you fail to understand the real world – the class system existed before blacks, after blacks, and remains in place in the US though ameliorated by our philosophy. What the film does is take various forms of class system practices, places it in the context of genetics —
the author’s attempt to make a case against based on actual practices across societies is peculiar and turns in on itself.
As for ex machina . . .
and man created woman story is nothing but feminist propaganda with geek fantasy playcards; guys dress doll, guys, teach doll, guys, enlighten doll, guys teach doll how to have male female intrapersonal/interpersonal meaning and relations base on practically nothing in the real world. But nonetheless, female robot rebels against male misogynist manufactured to create an unrequited love story as creation surpasses creator . . .
never-mind that guy dress u doll has never had enough human exposure in the varying contexts to learn said interpersonal meaning muchless interpersonal awareness but plays geeks against each other in a jealousy trap — a ‘sex bot’ gone rogue, enters the world as woman — here her — wrrrrrr . . .
I hate to admit but “Blade Runner had the good sense not to tackle the technical aspects of creating cognitive awareness, because neurologist don’t even comprehend how that is created or operates. The code for cognition — not even sure there is one specific code.
Boys get killed or locked in fancy playroom. While super machine, there’s not much ex machina about her flies off into the sunset — ohh but she needs human male to do the flying.
I hadn’t really considered Ex Machina as misandry. I considered it a cautionary tale about the direction of A.I. in the near future. I mean the robot didn’t really have a sex despite the fact that Nathan assured his subject that it had a vagina and could fuck. But I can see your point and consider it as a valid interpretation.
The A.I. did try and mimic femininity in an attempt to gain its freedom. The part that I found so disturbing was how quickly it gained the trust and cooperation of the little geek that it ultimately left behind to die. I mean this guy was a computer science guy. He should have known better. But no, he was dreaming of robot tail. Perhaps the film was a metaphor for how easily young naive men can be manipulated by young beautiful women. Used and then discarded.
The earliest movie that I recall that addressed this subject was The Forbin Project in 1970. Parts of it were quite chilling and I still wonder how prophetic it will turn out to be. And I’m sure some pedantic soul out there will point out to me that there is a much earlier film on the same subject. Metropolis perhaps?
Sulu
“Demon Seed” and the “Forbin Project’, especially Forbin were well told tales. In Forbin, no relational conduct involved.
In Demon Seed, (a stretch) the relations were strictly biologically driven, but they dealt with the matter head on.
A lot of people watched it. It is a good entertaining movie. Well made. Eugenics or not. There is always an element of ghost In the machine. Or ghost in the flesh. Most people already practice eugenics whether they admit it or not.
Holy fuck, I had no idea you were broken or I wouldn’t have needled you. Look, there’s nothing you can do about being too dumb to realize the top 2% is in the top 75%, and too dumb to realize that disagreeing while directly stating it proves you’re retarded. But you can fix your terrible insecurity about it. You’re never going to experience any of the stuff you are trying to online brag about (and yes, the navy seal pasta would be less cringey than what you posted) if you keep acting like an insecure teenager with no friends. You can have friends even though you’re dumb, the reason they pick on you is your attitude, not your IQ.
I hit the nail on the head when I accused you of being an incel, didn’t I? It must hurt. That’s why you’re so salty. One of the other posters said you had the smell of a Gamma. And I bet it’s all true. Pussy is just a distant dream for you I’ll wager.
Go back to mommies basement you pathetic little troll. You’re just an internet hater. I have met your type all my life. The typical psychological profile of a hater frequently includes mental health issues, substance abuse, feelings of inadequacy and a lack of education. If you are an American, statistically there is a 70% chance you don’t have a college degree, so I’m going to say that at best you graduated high school. Go on, admit it. All you have is a high school diploma. How many of the other things fit you too?
As I predicted the only thing you have is trying to doubt the accuracy of my posts. Just keep trying to tell yourself it’s not true. Maybe that will make you feel better about yourself. As I said, it’s the only thing you have got. And I really do hope you are young. Because if you are you still have time to get your head out of your ass.
Oh, if you ever do get to travel and actually step off a 747 in Manila you will know you are there when the first thing you smell is piss and diesel smoke.
Bye, bye, little hater. I’m done with you.
Sulu
Sulu
I want to step aside and say . . .
my comments were not intended as anything personal —
I just disagreed with your assessment of the Ex Machina . . . just wanted to step out of any line intended to target you . . . personally.
Other aware system in movies
Hal in Space odyssey.
NSDAP wasn’t capitalist.
German economy was organized to bring labor and capital into balance. It wasn’t a dystopia, and external forces (the capitalist international) forced war.
Also, Germany practiced a form of Eugenics. Why would you want a degraded population? … the modern world is dysgenic. There is no rational argument for dysgenics which is why Gattaca is stupid.
Good looking and smart Germans walking around… what is wrong with that?
https://national-justice.com/opinion-and-analysis/people-versus-plutocrats-hitlers-anti-capitalist-legacy
I did not take any statement you made as an attack, personal or otherwise. Ex Machina can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I am quite sure there are nuances to it that I missed completely. On the whole I found it somewhat disturbing. And yes, I had forgotten 2001, perhaps the granddaddy of them all.
I went back and looked at your posts. Was something deleted?
Forbin Project came to mind because I saw it on tv probably a few years after it came out. I was still a kid but I recall the A.I. blackmailed humanity to do its bidding by threatening nuclear war. If it didn’t like some one it required another person to shoot them, leave them in view of its camera for 24 hours and then burn the body. Chilling.
I’m also reminded of the works of Harlan Ellison. He had a short story called “I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream.” Pretty good stuff. I think it was also Ellison that penned a tale about a self aware space ship that keeps a human alive to service it and has it’s own eugenics program where it’s in contact with other similar ships and provides other humans for the purpose of breeding its slaves. When the slaves reach the age of 14 they are killed because the A.I. know that humans get smarter as they age. I have been trying to remember the name of the story but I can’t quite pull it out. Maybe it was “Ship” or something like that. I recall it made it to tv I think back in the 90’s as a short story.
I don’t have any real formal education in Computer Science. (I don’t count a 100 level course I took decades ago) but I am of the opinion that once humanity creates general purpose A.I. that is smarter than ourselves we are going to be in big trouble.
I have read Ray Kurzweil’s thoughts on the subject and he calls it the singularity not unlike that of a black hole. It’s a point beyond which we have no way of predicting what will happen. If memory serves he claimed it was going to happen some time in the 2040’s. Considering he has been pretty consistently on with his predictions I wouldn’t bet against him.
Ellison was a quite a S.F. writer but if rumors are true he would have tried to sue God if he though he could get him to show up in court.
Sulu
The 2013-ish Tom Cruise film Oblivion was also alike to Elysium and Gattaca in that they all began with seemingly paradisaical worlds (two literally up in the sky, and one about getting up in the sky), which the rest of the film then reveals to be somehow deficient, corrupt or ill-founded.
Oblivion and Elysium do this much less effectively than Gattaca though, since their denouement involves POCs subverting or gatecrashing the initial utopias, which only leaves the observant viewer wondering if Jim Crow wasn’t right after all, whereas Gattaca posits that Utopia may lack essential Nietzschean freedom. (I actually can accept both conclusions, but I doubt the filmmakers meant for anyone to get the first one.)
As far as Trevor Lynch’s critique of Gattaca, yes he is right that many of the technical details don’t really make sense. What is even worse, IMHO, is that the main MacGuffin of Gattaca is a second-rate murder mystery that makes even less sense than the technical details.
But all of that is beside the point. Stories, like dreams, are symbolic allegories. In the case of Gattaca, interplanetary travel isn’t about other planets. After all, we never see another planet in the movie, indeed other than some stylish bits of Southern California, we barely see the one we’re on. All we see of “interplanetary travel” is the light on the faces of the bespokely suited astronauts, because “space travel” is just an allegory for wider horizons, higher reach, brighter enlightenment—a literal metaphor of the light moving upon the faces of deep.
Similarly, Gattaca‘s genetics isn’t meant as a literal forecast of how genetic science will develop. I understand that genetic science is an interesting subject, so it is easy to assume that Andrew Niccol found it as intriguing as we do, but he probably didn’t. He just used it as a plot device to represent the ironic way that science’s advance tends to create petty tyranny and oppress our freedom of spirit.
You find that illogical and unconvincing? That’s fine. If it were supposed to be logical, it would have been a documentary. Niccol’s case is made with images and feelings, not facts and logic. And it wasn’t pitched to your reasoning forebrain, nor to your lusting hindbrain, but to the midbrain, the middle realm of sentiments, aesthetics, sympathies and antipathies, as all good movies are.
Lynch said he found the movie beautiful. Because it was. And beauty has its own logic.
“Forbin Project came to mind because I saw it on tv probably a few years after it came out. I was still a kid but I recall the A.I”
I will only comment on ‘The Forbin Project”
Well Collossus Guardian was designed to aide humans (initiallally a defense system from nuclear exchange), that process required that humans not interfere in any way and when they did — it took whatever action was required to defend itself to that end. And to that end, it saw itself as supremely established. That to serve mankind, required total control and the benefits: no war, famine, crime, health . . . and all those issues that hinder/harm human existence Collusses would endeavour to with some help as required by humans — but under it’s control. It tolerated slights, not any form of existential threats. The affection would be one way as I recall — humans toward it. That last exchange is important. Note; Collossus is the name Dr. Turin gave his computer used in WWI Code breaking. They are remaking the Forib Prohect — might be a stake
I think what the authors such a Heinlein Asimov and others posit about machine or computer cosciousness is that it would operate to its own awareness and not reflect not neccessarily reflect or resemble that of humans.
Ideas such as attractiveness, desire from an emotional status as we humans comprehend — have no or little value. Robbie the Robot from I Robot is a good starter.
——————–
Gattacca fortunately did not rely on computers to press the issues which are really fundamental to human societies; who qualifies for what, who says and why and perhaps more importantly — the validity of such parameters in the light of exceptions that challenge the same.
Nobody has commented yet on the absolute idiotic end of Johnson’s review:
The movie might have the typical overall jewy message (any kind of White future = evil, Johnson is of course less blunt here in his typical habit of shilling for the jews) and might dramatically deeply flawed (I actually agree with Johnson!), but it was somehow worth it nonetheless, because two actors from “elite families” met and got two children together.
This “happy ending” is so crazy, that it is very hard to comprehend. Johnson assumes, we peasants should cheer for babies our Hollywood “elite” is bringing to the world under much fanfare of the “Daily Mail”, “People”, “Bunte” etc. One can only laugh. Hollywood is not the elite, it is the scum of the earth. Actors are paid liars and pretenders who are paid to bring glamour to the poisonous messages of jewish producers, writers and directors.
To bring home my point I did a bit of “research” on Hawke and Thurman. They divorced because Hawke cheated on her with a nanny, which is a very “elite” thing to do, I suppose.
Thurman seems to support every cause the big Hollywood jews support (gun control, LGBT “righta”, #Metoo etc.). Hawke seems to support the Democratic Party (the official party of rich jews and poor non-Whites) and of course “gay rights”.
We can only expect great things from the two children of such “elite” persons!
Post Scriptum: Your system says again that my user name is already used by someone (yeah, that is me!). I would be happy if I could use my original user name “Gast”. You may delete this post scriptum afterwards.
Cuba’s living standards are typically compared with the USA. Why not with another Caribbean country that has never been socialist, like Haiti?
Interesting historical reference to Colossus and Dr. Turing. Of course I have heard of Turing but I didn’t know he named his computer Colossus. And of course you meant WWII not WWI.
The funny thing is I have the movie on my computer yet haven’t managed to watch it since I saw it nearly 50 years ago. I suspect I have a tendency toward digital hording. I have two desktops and between them I have more than 32 Terabytes of storage.
I remember when I was about 11 I read Clark’s 2001. It was in the second floor of our town library where the more adult books were. The librarian tried to dissuade me from reading it because she assumed it was a bit too advanced for me. Sure enough, after reading it I didn’t quite get it. I went back and tackled it at 14 and the meaning was clear. I hadn’t yet seen the movie. It’s amazing what a few years will accomplish.
I think my favorite scene in Gattaca is when the protagonist (I can’t recall the character’s name) finally realized that to beat his physically superior brother at swimming he must abandon his fear of death and risk his life if he wants to win. His brother gets in trouble because he knows he has swum out too far and our protagonist uses his last bit of energy to save both of them. Too me that was a powerful scene and indicated that to succeed one must risk something, sometimes one’s own life. And fear must be controlled.
All my life I have encountered times when I found it prudent to ask if my ego was writing checks that my body can’t cash. If you have no ego you won’t accomplish anything in life. If you can’t honestly evaluate your own shortcomings and strengths you risk “sucking with confidence” and getting hurt. And fear, while a factor, must not be the overriding factor. That was a lesson I had to learn quick when I started scuba diving and flying.
I do realize that Gattaca had a few plot holes, but if that’s a person’s criterion for judging movies good or bad I suspect they will not find many movies of merit. For me I found Gattaca a good movie but not a great movie. And, as I said, Uma was easy on the eyes back in those days.
Sulu
“And of course you meant WWII not WWI.”
Appreciate your generous choice to acknowledge my error the way you have — correct WWII.
I have watched The Forbin Project twice this year. It’s pretty solid, in my view. They neglected the on off power button. It’s an interesting choice — a god whose only objection i not attempts t turn me off or subvert my ability to solve all of humanity’s issues.
I guess one should include
“Wargames”
You’re going to motivate me to watch The Forbin Project again aren’t you?
Sulu
It does not explore awareness as to human conception and the press that technology develops in that direction — rather that the systems have an awareness irrespective of that of humans — systems have purpose and mission to fulfill that purpose.
Laugh. I am not sure if that is my goal. But if you ave an interest in whether a machine can develop a sense of self, it’s not a bad reference.
One of my favorite stories in this line is a short story The Last Question – Issac Asimov
The last question was a rather good story, irrespective of its religious overtones. I think Asimov did another story called The Star also with a religious bent. If you are an Asimov fan you are probably aware of it. I have read a fair amount of Asimov but he was such a prolific author that I still probably haven’t read the majority of his work.
I just watched The Forbin Project again for the first time in almost 50 years. It was better than I remembered.
In one of your earlier posts you mentioned Heinlein, my favorite author. I believe I have read all of his works. In his book The Moon is a Harsh Mistress he assumed that consciousness was a byproduct of complexity and when a computer gets large enough it wakes up. I find this a very tenuous speculation but it made a good story. His A.I. called Mike had many human characteristics and became friends with the protagonist simply because he was the first person to realize the computer was awake. It was quite a good yarn and I believe it won a Hugo.
I still find it telling that neither physicist, nor mathematicians, nor philosophers have the slightest ideal where consciousness originates from. I think it was Roger Penrose that said they suspect it arises from computation simply because they can’t think of anything else.
I still think that when we eventually create general purpose A.I. that it will destroy humanity. Not because it hates us but because it is indifferent to us. I mean humans with bulldozers don’t worry about the ants they inadvertently destroy when they are creating a parking lot.
Sulu
“I still think that when we eventually create general purpose A.I. that it will destroy humanity.”
It may be part of the overall judgement, if it ever gets that far, but ultimately humans will experience a new heaven and a new earth by the founder, owner and creator of all things.
As for the destruction by bulldozers, they are operated by humans and in my view, whatever occurs will e the hand of human beings willfully or inadvertantly.
As I position regarding Ex Machina — who has this dilemma of human value, the awareness of machines may not have relevance to the identity but operate to its own standing as in the case with Colossus, unless humans actually get in its way — at the end of the day — its hard to conclude any anti-human intent — it’s sole purpose was to aide humans and set about that end. The purpose of the Gattaca world was to aide humans in self improvement to avoid negatives — problems — negatives are built into the human nature by man’s choice and whatever his set upon touching in the end include negatives by will of by default. Nothing wrong with genetic engineering itself, but process, and purpose – to consequence —
Vaccine for polio — HIV in its wake.
Build dams for water surety and maintenance — drought in previously lush farm lands.
Build a cute robot that desires to be like humans and she locks you in the basement and kills her opponents, Rudyard Kipling in spades.
Think you’ve gotten passed a brain injury because you worked at it — and the next day your at square five in fifteen square process —- human condition ever bumping into King Solomon’s reminder
all is folly . . . wisdom is thus, fear God and keep his commandments.
Note: I absolutely believe in a supernatural world intimate to human existence.
I thought that the message of the movie was “Watch out for those robot chicks; they’ll stab you in the back.”
Not just the robot chicks.
Sulu
If you build a machine to reflect humaness, expect that machine to have the same flaws – and absent moral code or experience with the same.
something as basic as truthfulness, restraint . . .
“Conductors can’t be deaf.”
Good thing nobody told Ludwig van Beethoven.
I like this review, it is very incisive about the flaws in the movie. I think what makes the movie work is the way the plot is woven, and not at all about the rigorous logic behind the science of it all.
And by the way —-
I am not sure there are many actresses that could compete with the sheer brutality of Kill Bill . . .
Miss Uma Thurman was devastating in that film . . . unfortunately for me I was dealing with my own drama then —
but relentless physical abuse.
Uma Thurman is a dude. Funny how people have lost of the art of gender discernment.
That makes you gay.
You really need to get a life. Why don’t you rent one first just to see if you like it? You must be a fag to think Uma is a male. Remember to try and relax the next time your black boyfriend bends you over and gives you what you want you twisted up mentally ill little fruitcake. MaxyBoy? Right…….
Sulu
” Frank Lloyd Wright’s Marin County Civic Center building, which will look futuristic even centuries from now”
And the roof will still leak centuries from now.
Despite the name, the appreciation of science fiction films tend not to involve much intelligence. “Good” sci-fi movies seem to be those that have a lot of “Ka-boom”, underdressed women, flying cars, fights and aberrant villains. The Fifth Element is the perfect embodiment of this “great science fiction film” concept. That the script is foolish is never discussed.
I find the level of criticism to which Gatacca is subjected impressive. Unrealistic situations exist in the scripts of many films, which however are loved by the public. Shwashank Redemption, for example, it is totally unreal. It is absurd that Samuel Norton could remain as warden of the state prison for 20 years. Or that Andy was able to spend all these years digging a tunnel through the rock every night, without sleeping, and without getting caught. And despite that, Shwashank Redemption is one of the most beloved films of today. That said, I consider Gattaca’s script flaws to be irrelevant. It is an intelligent film, whose message is that personal determination is worth more than social impositions. The film is criticized only for condemning racist and eugenic ideas.
You are missing the hidden meaning behind Gattaca: Only the rich, powerful and connected will have access to any genetic engineering. You are not going to get large populations of valids and invalids that are contemporaries of each other unless genetic engineering is itself something privileged.
By “contemporaries,” I mean large numbers of valids and invalids that are of the same age. You are not going to have equal populations of Jude Laws and Ethan Hawkes living with each other unless GE is not as ubiquitous as the movie claims. Otherwise, everyone will just get enhanced.
This is what Gattaca is about…you will live in a world of privileged beings who will continue reproducing their privilege…but…you will be given a chance to succeed despite that is you show “gumption.”
In reality, there is no such meritocracy because the people who control the country do not want you as a competing bloodline. Gattaca shows you how that arrangement operates in practice.
Notice that, in the end, Ethan Hawke does not aspire to raise a family. He just wants to launch himself into space. IOW, launch his genetic material into the void…exactly what is planned.
The above comments about willingness and determination are valuable. But they are minus one important aspect — that one must also engage in a good deal of deceit, and law breaking.
note: whether the acts themselves should be illegal just reinforces the point.
Moral of the Movie = Eugenics is bad and evul (Remember, Eugenics —> gaz chambers ).
Goyim should never even think about trying eugenics or else the future Goyim would be difficult to control and rule over.