back to article Europe glances Russia's way after Baltic Sea data cables severed

Two optical fiber internet cables under the Baltic Sea appear to have been deliberately broken, Germany and Finland confirmed, prompting fresh concerns over possible Russian interference with technology infrastructure. In a joint statement, the Finnish and German foreign ministers said they were "deeply concerned" about the …

  1. alain williams Silver badge

    What a damned stupid species we are

    The world could be a nicer place to live in for everyone if we used our, supposedly, intelligent big brains for mutual benefit. But instead the sociopaths, a minority who only care about themselves, act to disrupt others to persue aims to get themselves more than they need - even to give themselves a luxurious lifestyle.

    The really harmful ones are those that get into top political positions. I could name them but some one my list would upset some people.

    1. EricM Silver badge

      Re: What a damned stupid species we are

      Agree on your post title, however, ...

      > The really harmful ones are those that get into top political positions

      No, the _really_ harmful ones allow themselves to be manipulated into voting psychopaths and sociopaths into power, while they still have a mostly functioning voting system.

      Both Putin and Trump have in fact been elected in their first 2 elections. After Putin's 2nd term is was pretty much game over for any form of meaningful democracy in Russia.

      Will be interesting to see if the US will be able to avoid a "King Trump"

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time ?

        1. DS999 Silver badge

          Sure it did. The fact that Biden took office despite Trump's lies about the election and attempted insurrection are proof he was never a "king".

          This time I'm not so sure, but if things go in that direction I'm leaving the US behind and I'm sure I won't be alone. I'd rather watch my country of birth be destroyed from a distance than from inside.

          Hopefully Trump's terrible fast food based diet will catch up to him and he'll have a major heart attack or stroke before things get that far. There isn't an heir apparent who could rally all the support Trump did, so with all the infighting MAGA would burn itself out and eventually sane people will be able to reclaim the republican party.

        2. KarMann
          Headmaster

          Wait, do you mean it didn't happen, or the US didn't avoid it?

    2. Mentat74
      Facepalm

      Re: The really harmful ones are those...

      That become billionaires....

      Then they just buy the politicians...

      1. Blaven

        Re: The really harmful ones are those...

        Sounds like you've being listening to the fabulous Mona Lisa Twins song "I bought myself a politician" on YouTube? You know that's just a witty, lyrical ditty, it's not real :-)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The really harmful ones are those...

          @Blaven

          It's also on Spotify.

          I think if you asked "wannabe President Musk", he would disagree with you about it being "not real".

          Just sayin'

  2. ForthIsNotDead
    Stop

    Why would they bother?

    Why would Russia even bother with such a move? It's not exactly in the same league as the NordStream 2 pipeline, is it? It's frankly utterly inconsequential. Number of people killed, frozen, starved, burned, or irradiated to death: zero.

    Maybe your pron or cat video takes a bit longer to download. Number of shits given: zero.

    I rather think Russia have bigger fish to fry elsewhere at the moment.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why would they bother?

      In the stock market milliseconds can be the difference between making and losing millions. Knocking out this fiber could add those milliseconds to someone's link.

    2. Jedit Silver badge
      Mushroom

      "Maybe your pron or cat video takes a bit longer to download."

      Or maybe a significant communication is delayed. Can't think why that might be a problem for two countries that have direct land borders with Russia. (See icon)

      1. ForthIsNotDead

        Re: "Maybe your pron or cat video takes a bit longer to download."

        If they're using an undersea internet cable for that sort of stuff then their problem isn't Russia, or the undersea cable. Their problem is they're bloody stupid.

    3. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Why would they bother?

      Why would Russia even bother with such a move? It's not exactly in the same league as the NordStream 2 pipeline, is it? It's frankly utterly inconsequential. Number of people killed, frozen, starved, burned, or irradiated to death: zero.

      Don't ask silly questions like that, or why Russia would sabotage their own pipeline. But it's become fashionable to jump to conclusions and try and blame the usual suspect. Fortunately the Baltic is heavily surveilled, so once the breaks have been localised, it should be easy to identify any ships that were in the area. Then it'll probably just be another anchor drag event, although it might still be possible to blame a Russian ship given they still have access to the 'NATO lake' as some mad politicians prefer to call it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why would they bother?

        Weak, very weak.

        Two broken cables in the same area and in the same 24 hours doesn't happen by chance.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Why would they bother?

          Two broken cables in the same area and in the same 24 hours doesn't happen by chance.

          It can. Not seen anything showing exactly where the cuts happened, but it's possible it happened close to where they cross. One multiple outage I was involved in happened off the Suez Canal. Multiple systems used that route, the canal was closed, so a lot of ships were anchoring & waiting to transit.. Cue anchor drags, multiple cables affected and a lot of Internet customers lost their transit as well. Natural events can do this as well, eg "Hey, our cable to Japan has moved!" "That's ok, so has the island." Shame that one's mostly remembered for the 'Fukushima nuclear disaster', not a massive quake that moved an island and forced a lot of map updates.

          ps.. what is it with El Reg and conspiracy theorists these days?

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Stop

            Re: Why would they bother?

            No one is denying that accidents, and natural disasters (a vulcano cut Tonga off for a couple of weeks last year) do happen, but that also does not mean this wasn't sabotage.

            All the Baltic and North Sea countries have reported an increase in Russian "scientific" ships close to important infrastructure over the last couple of years and, the aim of terrorism is to inspire terror, including of fairly mild attacks. This means more costs for repairs, surveillance, coastguards, etc. Cheaper to start banning Russian vessels from our waters.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Why would they bother?

              This means more costs for repairs, surveillance, coastguards, etc. Cheaper to start banning Russian vessels from our waters.

              Sure, but that violates UNCLOS and a bunch of maritime conventions given they're not 'our waters', they're shared between all coastal states. Banning Russian vessels would then breach those laws & treaties, as well as essentially creating a blockade and increasing the likelihood of hostile activity, because we'd be the agressor. Also if you look at this-

              https://www.submarinecablemap.com/

              You'll see it's very difficult to sail in and around the Baltic without getting close to important infrastructure, especially when that map doesn't show all the electricity & gas or oil infrastructure that's in the Baltic. Again maritime charts mark the routes clearly, because unless they're marked, operators can't claim against vessel owners, if stuff is damaged because they've drifted outside their marked positions. Plus there's also an increasing challenge due to congestion, ie more cables crossing existing ones making it a lot harder to yoink them up to repair them. And there's more demand on cable maintenance vessels because there's just more cable.

              And it is (or certainly should be) very easy to identify any surface vessel that might have interfered with those systems. But that's one of the dumb things about this 'story' and the way it's been turned into conspiracy theories or propaganda. The cable operators have evidence, the media doesn't and is just mudslinging and risking making themselves look stupid, if it turns out it was German, Polish, Finnish etc ship that was responsible.

              1. theAltoid

                Re: Why would they bother?

                "You'll see it's very difficult to sail in and around the Baltic without getting close to important infrastructure..."

                Do you realize that the cable thicknesses are drawn vastly over scale?

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Why would they bother?

                  Do you realize that the cable thicknesses are drawn vastly over scale?

                  You err.. don't bother reading any of what I've written, do you? So instead jump both feet first in with a bad attempt at snark, not realising I've handled more cable than you've ever laid cable and know rather a lot more about this stuff than you clearly do.

                  1. theAltoid

                    Re: Why would they bother?

                    So it seems like the 3 Russian captains on the Chinese vessel cut the cable. Sometimes facts trump experience.

                    1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                      Re: Why would they bother?

                      So it seems like the 3 Russian captains on the Chinese vessel cut the cable. Sometimes facts trump experience.

                      So.. err.. why would one vessel have 3 Captains? Normally that works much like Highlander and there can be only one given the Captain is legally responsible for the safety of the vessel and crew. Which I guess gets strange when there might be an Admiral onboard, but even then AFAIK the Captain is still in charge, it's just the Admiral can order them what to do.. But then the Captain could still refuse, because it's still their vessel.

                      But citation needed. Facts require evidence to support them. Two cable cuts, are you saying both were cut by the same tri-hatted vessel?

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: Why would they bother?

                Thanks for the map.

                Russia and China have, at various times, willingly ignored UNCLOS. But then so does the US when it feel like it. Russia has also sent vessels where it definitely shouldn't – one of the reasons why Sweden decided to drop neutrality and join NATO. And the shadow fleet breaks the law almost by definition. I think we may well see more assertive coastguards in action and requests that vessels move away. When it comes to navies, it's one of the few areas where Europe really does have the edge over Russia, especially with Finland and Sweden onboard.

                Sweden and Finland are now treating the events as sabotage, so you can shut down your smoke cannon: Russia is definitely probing and provoking to see whether and how the West reacts.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Why would they bother?

                  Russia and China have, at various times, willingly ignored UNCLOS. But then so does the US when it feel like it. Russia has also sent vessels where it definitely shouldn't – one of the reasons why Sweden decided to drop neutrality and join NATO.

                  But the Baltic has always been like that, at least ever since the days of the Hanseatic League and merchants getting up to shenanigans to protect their trade. Or cripple competitors. Multiple nations sharing an often narrow and shallow sea, all shipping bits, barrels, BTUs or just fish. And those coastal states haven't always been friendly, eg Sweden's invaded both Ukraine and Russia before, so has Finland, along with siding with the Nazis against Russia during WW2. Russia wants to protect their trade routes, Russia's enemies want to restrict trade. Russia sends spy subs, Sweden chases them away. US sends their subs like USS Virginia, Russia chases those away. It's been this way for centuries.

                  Well, except now things have heated up again, and the West is outright hostile towards Russia, especially little Baltic states like say, Estonia who have become viruently Russophobic recently. So it wouldn't be suprising if Russia is now actively hostile towards the West and working to harm our interests.

                  I think we may well see more assertive coastguards in action and requests that vessels move away.

                  That's how it's always supposed to have been and vessels being where they shouldn't, or stopping where they shouldn't get warned away by radio or patrol boats. And again given governments have finally woken up to the risks, this should be happening more frequently. Magic became a suspect because AIS data showed it doing a dougnut, which isn't something you'd normally expect an oil tanker to do. Maybe it was deliberate, may be it developed a fault, we don't know. Or we aren't being told.

                  Infrastructure in the Baltic is vulnerable though because it's shallow, and restricted. Cables (or pipes) are especially vulnerable if they're crossing shipping lanes, so normally they're buried and protected with matting, concrete etc to try and stop them being damaged. But currents or ship movements overhead might scour that away and expose the cable. I once read a paper examing different burial techniques and risks and if concrete was a good or bad thing in shallow waters. So risks might increase if cables end up rubbing against exposed concrete or rebar when a deep draughted vessel passes overhead and the prop wash swirls things about a bit.

                  But that can be the nature of the job. Maintenance vessel goes to the location of the (first) break (not 'rupture') identified by OTDR, sends down an ROV to take a look and take pictures/video. Then ROV might cut the cable, or lift severed ends to the surface. Or the ship uses cutting & grappling anchors to do that, then cable is spliced back together and cable lowered back. If it needs re-burial and re-armoring, that's more complicated and takes longer. But priority is restoration, not finger pointing. And I don't envy the teams working these jobs given TPTB will be looking for evidence if it was accidental or sabotage. And then insurers may also be looking to see if it was a protection failure and deny claims.

                  It's one of those strange and very specialised bits of the telecomms industry that keeps all the bits flowing. Also plug for the Porthcurno museum if you want to learn more.

                  When it comes to navies, it's one of the few areas where Europe really does have the edge over Russia, especially with Finland and Sweden onboard.

                  Maybe, although we'll know TSHTF when their naval bases start smoking. Or there's other scope for shenanigans, ie there's terrestrial fibre routes into Russia via Finland and other Baltic states, so maybe those will have 'accidents'.

                  Sweden and Finland are now treating the events as sabotage, so you can shut down your smoke cannon.

                  Or they're operating the smoke cannon. Sabotage, or suspected sabotage? Again I wouldn't hold my breath given the EU still doesn't know who committed the biggest act of sabotage in the EU's history. It's one of those propaganda problems. If there is evidence, show it or prove it. This is the simplest way to prevent 'misinformation' and conspiracy theories. Cables were cut here, cause was vessel X dragging its anchor. Fines and prosecutions to follow.

                  Russia is definitely probing and provoking to see whether and how the West reacts.

                  It doesn't really need to given Russia operates cable landing stations, is part of the cable maintenance consortia responsible for repair & maintenance of cables, especially in their own territorial waters. And then on the sneaky side, it's had a long tradition of submarines and submersibles that have inspected cables that don't belong to Russia.. And we've done/do exactly the same thing. But currently in the absence of evidence, it's all just speculation and the risk of politicians & the media losing credibility by crying wolf.. Again.

                  (On the media side, there's good evidence of churnalism and multiple media outlets just running the same story. So the graphic showing the 'rupture', which is the wrong term.)

          2. A. Coatsworth Silver badge
            Trollface

            Re: Why would they bother?

            >>ps.. what is it with El Reg and conspiracy theorists these days?

            Well, you _do_ have a Silver Badge, so it seems conspiracy theorists have been here for a long time...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Why would they bother?

          "Two broken cables in the same area and in the same 24 hours doesn't happen by chance."

          An update (see below) was posted to the story that a single Chinese ship was in the area where both cables were damaged.

          One assumes that maybe they were dragging their anchor and that has caused the damage to both cables?

          [quote]

          Updated at 2000 UTC

          It's emerging that officials are looking into whether the Chinese-registered bulk carrier Yi Peng 3, which set sail from Russia to Egypt, damaged the two cables. It's said the ship came near the Swedish-Lithuanian and Finnish-German undersea lines around the time each was seemingly cut on Sunday and Monday.[/quote]

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. EvilDrSmith

        Re: Why would they bother?

        "it should be easy to identify any ships that were in the area."

        Current (unconfirmed, admittedly) reports are that they have - it's a Chinese-flagged vessel, sailing from Russia under a Russian captain.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Why would they bother?

          Current (unconfirmed, admittedly) reports are that they have - it's a Chinese-flagged vessel, sailing from Russia under a Russian captain.

          Yeh, I also heard that the Andromeda had been released by investigators and was out on charter over the weekend by some guests who instisted on paying cash.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I also heard that the Andromeda had been released ...

            ... directly from Dylan Hunt himself, no doubt :-)

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: I also heard that the Andromeda had been released ...

              ... directly from Dylan Hunt himself, no doubt :-)

              Ok, I confess I had to look that one up. Meanwhile, two things.. One a conspiracy theory (ish), the other perhaps less so..

              Five days ago, Nowegian fisherman caught the USS Virginia, but had to throw it back because a) it would have put them over quota and b) you can't claim salvage on something that's under power and under way. But what was it doing so far from the coast of the US? Lost? Spying ?!

              There's some speculation on more sensible forums that this may be the suspect given the AIS data showed it wandering a bit-

              Tanker Magic Lady (IMO: 9266750) was insured with the International P&I Club Group (West of England) on 19 July 2024. managed by a company called 'Fist Management Ltd' in the Marshall Islands, and suspected of being a part of the 'shadow fleet', but currently heading for Senegal. Which I guess could give the insurers an out if they can argue the vessel was engaged in illegal activity.

              1. Casca Silver badge

                Re: I also heard that the Andromeda had been released ...

                You have missed that Norway is a member in NATO? But dont let that stop you...

    4. I should coco

      Re: Why would they bother?

      I suspect Russia's dirty hand in revenge for some spy-type thing thats happened so a bit of for tat...

    5. Mage Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: Why would they bother?

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/16/russian-spy-ship-escorted-away-from-internet-cables-in-irish-sea

      Because they can. A dry run for a bigger quantity of cable cutting (inc maybe power and gas pipes).

      Winston Churchill set up Room 101 to read / decode telegraph traffic and then in during WWI the UK cut all the German cables.

      Russia is fighting a hybrid war, even before 2014, and it's getting hotter.

      1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: Why would they bother?

        A dry run for a bigger quantity of cable cutting (inc maybe power and gas pipes).

        That was what I was thinking of

        1. TRT Silver badge

          Re: Why would they bother?

          And it acts as a bit of a warning too. Without going nuclear.

          1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge
            Mushroom

            Re: Why would they bother?

            And it acts as a bit of a warning too. Without going nuclear yet

            FTFY

            A phrase I heard on a podcast the other day, which has kind of stuck in my mind..."we are currently in the foothills of World War 3"

            1. TRT Silver badge

              Re: Why would they bother?

              Don't I know it! I went for a trot round the Imperial War Museum the other day. The rumblings prior to all hell breaking loose are depressingly familiar.

    6. tony72

      Re: Why would they bother?

      It may be inconsequential on its own, but who's to say they're not going to cut some more cables, to the point where it does start to be a problem? Maybe this was a test run, to see what it takes to cut the cable, and evaluate the effects?

    7. Jonathon Green

      Re: Why would they bother?

      [Shrug] Just a quick, dirty, relatively low cost move in a continuing campaign of low grade disruption and destabilisation….

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why would they bother?

      A short time after the US president permits Ukraine to fire missiles into Russian territory, communications cables to NATO's two most recent members are cut.

      Nice little military alliance you have there. Shame if anything were to happen to it.

      1. DJ
        Coat

        Re: Why would they bother?

        Have an upvote for the Vercotti brothers reference.

        Funny how the cables Russia uses never seem to be involved in "accidents"...

        Mine's the one without the cable snippers in the pocketses. ---->

    9. O'Reg Inalsin

      Re: Why would they bother?

      Because they ran out of Novichok?

    10. tiggity Silver badge

      Re: Why would they bother?

      @ForthIsNotDead

      .. and as for NordStream, plenty of (credible) voices arguing that was a false flag operation, but the instant accusations against Russia are what stuck in most peoples minds.

      Who knows what the truth is behind this incident, but again with initial accusations against Russia, that is what average person will remember (as if it turns out to be usual anchor drag style issue you can bet there will not be big headlines).

      I'm not saying Russia are wonderful, innocent, honest & trustworthy (the opposite would be more accurate), but sadly "Western" governments are not really any better - it's lies & misdirection from all directions, but anything that happens that is unusual tends to instantly produce a politically useful "blame the bad guys" response rather than a more honest "we don't know, we may find out after further investigations".

  3. Dinanziame Silver badge
    Windows

    ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

    It would not be the first time.

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

      Or an underwater backhoe?

      1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

        Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

        Or an underwater backhoe?

        That's pretty much what bottom trawls and anchors do to cables. Vessels shouldn't be working those areas, which is one of those good/bad news things. Cable routes and protection zones should be clearly marked on charts, so vessels should avoid them. If nothing else, the vessel owner can face a large repair bill for the damage caused and restoration work. Bad news is of course they're clearly marked.

        1. DoctorNine

          Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

          It's a fairly common strategy when a marginalized nationstate wants to disrupt the free world's economic activity, to have a 'fishing trawler' or 'containerized cargo ship' do the actual deed. The strategy is simple: Plausible deniability. "We most certainly DID NOT want that to happen. There are always accidents in commercial shipping!"

          1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

            The strategy is simple: Plausible deniability. "We most certainly DID NOT want that to happen. There are always accidents in commercial shipping!"

            Or they could just be accidents. I worked in the submarine cable business, and these things happen. Then again, our 'leaders' have created the situation where these things might to start happening, and happening more frequently. Or cable mainenance vessels do a bit of a Rainbow Warrior. We have a lot of subsea cables we rely on, and not many vessels that can repair them. Plus ever since Nord Stream had it's totally mysterious unplanned outage, our 'leaders' have also been slowly waking up to this vulnerability.. Which was suposed to have included increasing maritime patrols of cable & pipeline routes, and a general increase in surveillance.

            But the reality is the cable operators will already know exactly where the cuts occured, because OTDRs are built into pretty much every SLT so the distance to cut(s) would be known within seconds. Then a quick look at AIS data services might show vessels in the area, or a phone call to your friendly coastal state could tell you that, or you could look at companies that provide maritime satellite data.

            Or conspiracy theorists could just jump to the conclusion that it was Russia. Cat stuck up a tree? Russia stuck it there. Of course if it were Russia, and it was being a tad hostile, I'd expect a lot more cuts and to a lot more important cables.

            ps..

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dl4vxw501o

            German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius has said damage to two undersea cables in the Baltic Sea looks like an act of sabotage and a "hybrid action", without knowing who is to blame.

            So far, so normal for Germany. Nord Stream go <boom>? Nope, no idea who did that either..

    2. TRT Silver badge

      Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

      A shark who's trying to increase their daily fibre intake?

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

        With added laser illumination!

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: ...Or it could be a fishing trawler

          Damnit, all those chemicals being dumped into the Baltic means they're evolving faster than expected, and really want their frikken lazor beams.

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: ...Or it could be a Musk’ite…

      Undersea cables are so last century, we have the much superior Starlink; which is massively under utilised in Europe, plus Elon Musk needs to replenish his wealth…

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: ...Or it could be a Musk’ite…

        See we have some Musk fans lurking on ElReg, alternatively, there are some who don’t get English humour…

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: ...Or it could be a Musk’ite…

          See we have some Musk fans lurking on ElReg, alternatively, there are some who don’t get English humour…

          I think it's just that a lot of thumb-wielders just don't understand sarcasm, unless you have to explain that to them via the use of /sarc tags. Plus some people, after probably spending too much time online are very, very easily triggered.

  4. Groo The Wanderer

    There won't be repercussions because Drumpf just loves dictators like Putin. He's more likely to congratulate him than raise a ruckus.

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

  6. Bitsminer Silver badge

    Not the only thing going on...

    The Poles disrupted an attempt to firebomb airplanes in late October. The Russians got blamed and they denied it.

    Other fires at air-freight facilities have happened in the UK and Germany, apparently started by air cargo consignments.

    The consequences for international air freight were significant. A lot more security checks were invoked and only known customers were granted shipping privileges.

    There have been other actions also attributed to Russia. They're apparently delegating the rougher stuff to criminal gangs rather than special-ops military or intelligence agencies.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/incendiary-devices-plot-canada-russia-1.7378613

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07912lxx33o

    1. Casca Silver badge

      Re: Not the only thing going on...

      Just like Iran who use criminal gangs to get to people in other countries

  7. Yorick Hunt Silver badge
    Trollface

    It was a group of drunken Siberians, in a rented dinghy, on a spur of the moment.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Silly question

    A lot of people on here are IT support, if you see a machine damaged, you can usually work out how. Does a fibre cable ripped apart by an anchor look the same as one that has been cleanly cut? Don't know, having never seen one, but I would have thought the cause of the damage would be pretty obvious come repair time.

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