What just happened?

It’s been almost two weeks since the presidential election, and many Americans are still grappling with the result. The political reckoning will probably last for months, if not years, and we may never know exactly why voters made the choices they did. But one thing is clear: the roughly 75 million people who voted for Trump were saying “No” to something. So what were they rejecting?

Today’s guest is Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. It’s a book about democracy and the contradictions and conflicts at the heart of it.

Beauchamp speaks with host Sean Illing about America’s growing reactionary movement and what it could mean for the country’s political future.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World.

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Philosopher Alexandra Plakias says there are no awkward people, only awkward situations. In her book, Awkwardness: A Theory, Plakias explains the difference between embarrassment and awkwardness, how awkwardness can be used by people in power as a way of breaking social norms, and what exactly is happening when people aren’t on the same social script.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alexandra Plakias, author, Awkwardness: A Theory

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This has been an unusual week. Sean and the TGA team are still sifting through it all and figuring out what to think about the presidential election. In the meantime, our colleague Jonquilyn Hill has leapt into action. She and her team from the Explain It to Me podcast collected lots of listener questions in the aftermath of Trump's victory, and took them to the Vox reporters who know the most about what happened and what it all means. We'll be back with a new episode on Monday. Until then, check out Explain It to Me.

________________________

Wow, what a week. The country has a new president-elect, and our listeners have a ton of questions about what comes next. Why did Latino voters swing right? How will Democrats respond? What’s going to happen to Donald Trump’s court cases? Will Trump really do all the things he said he would during the campaign? Host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Vox correspondents Christian Paz, Ian Millhiser, and Zack Beauchamp to answer all that and more.

Submit your questions — about politics, or, if you need a break, about anything else — by calling 1-800-618-8545. You can also submit them here.

Credits:

Jonquilyn Hill, host

Sofi LaLonde and Gabrielle Berbey, producers

Cristian Ayala, engineer

Carla Javier, supervising producer

Caity PenzeyMoog, Anouck Dussaud, and Sarah Schweppe, fact checkers

Jorge Just, Julia Longoria, and Natalie Jennings, editors 

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What does it mean to be "woke"? It's become a catchall term to smear or dismiss anything that has any vague association with progressive politics. As a result, anytime you venture into an argument about “wokeness,” it becomes hopelessly entangled in a broader cultural battle. Today’s guest, journalist and professor Musa al-Gharbi, helps us untangle "wokeness" from its fraught political context. The author of a new book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, al-Gharbi explains what effects the movement is and isn’t having on our society.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Musa al-Gharbi (@Musa_alGharbi), author, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite,

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What can ancient Rome teach us about American democracy?

The Roman Republic fell for a lot of reasons: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. It sounds a lot like the problems America is facing today.

This week's guest, historian Edward Watts, tells us what we can learn about America's future by studying Rome's past.

Host: Sean Illing, (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Edward Watts, author, Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny and The Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome.

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Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog.

Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. The two discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work, why he's interested in Mars, and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All

This episode was originally published in October of 2023.

Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now

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How important is complexity? At The Gray Area, we value understanding the details. We revel in complexity. But does our desire to understand that complexity sometimes over-complicate an issue?

Journalist and bestselling author Ta-Nehisi Coates thinks so.

This week on The Gray Area, Sean talks to Coates about his new book The Message, a collection of essays about storytelling, moral clarity, and the dangers of hiding behind complexity.

The Message covers a lot of ground, but the largest section of the book — and the focus of this week’s conversation — is about Coates’s trip to the Middle East and the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Coates argues that the situation is not as complicated as most of us believe.

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In part three of our series on creativity, guest host Oshan Jarow speaks with philosopher of neuroscience Mark Miller about how our minds actually work. They discuss the brain as a predictive engine that builds our conscious experience for us. We’re not seeing what we see. We’re predicting what we should see. Miller says that depression, opioid use, and our love of horror movies can all be explained by this theory. And that injecting beneficial kinds of uncertainty into our experiences — embracing chaos and creativity — ultimately make us even better at prediction, which is one of the keys to happiness and well-being.

 This is the third conversation in our three-part series about creativity.

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Sean revisits his interview with musician Laraaji, a pioneer of new age music who has recorded more than 50 albums since he was discovered busking in a park by Brian Eno. Laraaji and Sean discuss inspiration, flow states, and what moves us to create.

This is the second conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity.

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What is the relationship between creativity and artificial intelligence? Creativity feels innately human, but is it? Can a machine be creative? Are we still being creative if we use machines to assist in our creative output?

To help answer those questions, Sean speaks with Meghan O'Gieblyn, the author of the book "God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning." She and Sean discuss how the rise of AI is forcing us to reflect on what it means to be a creative being and whether our relationship to the written word has already been changed forever.

This is the first conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)

Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn (https://www.meghanogieblyn.com/)

References:

God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021)

Being human in the age of AI. The Gray Area. (Vox Media; 2023) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-human-in-the-age-of-ai/id1081584611?i=1000612148857

Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now

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Children live with a beginner’s mind. Every day is full of new discoveries, powerful emotions, and often unrealistically positive assumptions about the future. As adults, beginner’s mind gives way to the mundane drudgeries of existence — and our brains seem to make it much harder for us to be happy. Should we be cool with that?

We wrap up our three-part series on optimism with Paul Bloom, author of Psych: The Story of the Human Mind and Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning. He offers his thoughts on optimism and pessimism and walks Sean Illing through the differences between what we think makes us happy versus what actually does.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)

Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloom), psychologist, author and writer of the Substack Small Potatoes

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Sean Illing has a special message for all you listeners: Look at me!

We’ve made our first-ever video episode. See Sean in conversation with Yuval Noah Harari. Watch it with your friends and family and your friend’s families and their family friends. It’s on YouTube right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhx1sdX2bow

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Climate change has become synonymous with doomsday, as though everyone is waiting for the worst to happen. But what is this mindset doing to us? Is climate anxiety keeping us from confronting the challenge? Ayana Elizabeth Johnson thinks so. In part two of our “Reasons to Be Cheerful” series, she talks to Sean Illing about her new book, What If We Get It Right? and makes the case that our best chance for survival is acting as though the future is a place in which we want to live.

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Humans are good learners and teachers, constantly gathering information, archiving, and sharing knowledge. So why, after building the most sophisticated information technology in history, are we on the verge of destroying ourselves? We know more than ever before. But are we any wiser? Bestselling author of Sapiens and historian Yuval Noah Harari doesn’t think so.

This week Sean Illing talks with Harari, author of a mind-bending new book, Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks, about how the information systems that shape our world often sow the seeds of destruction, and why the current AI revolution is just the beginning of a brand-new evolutionary process that might leave us all behind.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)

Guest: Yuval Noah Harari (@harari_yuval)

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There’s a certain glamor to cynicism. As a culture, we’ve turned cynicism into a symbol of hard-earned wisdom, assuming that those who are cynical are the only ones with the courage to tell us the truth and prepare us for an uncertain future. Psychologist Jamil Zaki challenges that assumption.

In part one of The Gray Area’s new three-part series, “Reasons to be Cheerful,” Sean Illing asks Jamil Zaki about why cynicism is everywhere, especially if it makes no sense to be this way — and what we, as individuals, can do to challenge our own cynical tendencies.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)

Guest: Jamil Zaki (@zakijam) psychologist at Stanford University and author of Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness

Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now

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Sean Illing speaks with poet and historian Jennifer Michael Hecht, whose book The Wonder Paradox asks: If we don't have God or religion, what — if anything — do we lose? They discuss how religion accesses meaning — through things like prayer, ceremony, and ritual — and Jennifer speaks on the ways that poetry can play similar roles in a secular way. They also discuss some of the "tricks" that poets use, share favorite poems, and explore what it would mean to "live the questions" — and even learn to love them — without having the answers.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jennifer Michael Hecht (@Freudeinstein), poet, historian; author

References: 

• The Wonder Paradox: Embracing the Weirdness of Existence and the Poetry of Our Lives by Jennifer Michael Hecht (FSG; 2023)
• Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht (HarperOne; 2004)
• Rainer Maria Rilke, from a 1903 letter to Franz Kappus, published in Letters to a Young Poet (pub. 1929)
• Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1855)
• "Why do parrots live so long?" by Charles Q. Choi (LiveScience; May 23, 2022)
• "The survival of poetry depends on the failure of language," from The Tree of Meaning: Language, Mind, and Ecology by Robert Bringhurst (Counterpoint; 2009)
• "Traveler, There Is No Road" ("Caminante, no hay camino") by Antonio Machado (1917)
• "A Free Man's Worship" by Bertrand Russell (1903)
• Totality and Infinity: An Essay on Exteriority by Emmanuel Levinas (1961)

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How is the origin of our universe like an improvised saxophone solo? This week, Sean Illing talks to Stephon Alexander, a theoretical physicist and world-class jazz musician. Alexander is the author of The Jazz of Physics and his most recent book, Fear of a Black Universe. This episode features music by Stephon Alexander throughout, from his latest 2024 album Spontaneous Fruit and his 2017 EP True to Self.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Stephon Alexander (@stephstem), theoretical physicist, Brown University

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Sean Illing talks with Glory Liu, the author of Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism. Smith is most well-known for being the “father of capitalism,” but as Liu points out in her book, his legacy has been misappropriated — especially in America. They discuss his original intentions and what we can take away from his work today.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Glory Liu (@miss_glory), author; lecturer, Harvard University

References:

• Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism by Glory Liu (Princeton; 2022)
• Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life by Nicholas Phillipson (Yale; 2012)
• Free to Choose: A Personal Statement by Milton & Rose Friedman (Harcourt; 1980)
• “Adam Smith’s ‘History of Astronomy’ and view of science” by Kwangsu Kim (Cambridge Journal of Economics v. 36; 2012)

Works by Adam Smith:

• The Wealth of Nations (1776)
• Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759)
• Lectures on Jurisprudence (1763)

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Sean Illing speaks with marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon, whose book 'The Origins of You' aims to help us identify and heal the wounds that originated from our family, which shape our patterns of behavior in relationships and throughout our lives. Sean and Vienna talk about how we can spot and name our "origin wounds," discuss practical wisdom to help break free from the ways these pains grip us, and Sean directly confronts some real issues from his upbringing and family life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Vienna Pharaon (@mindfulmft), marriage & family therapist; author

References: 

• The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love by Vienna Pharaon (G.P. Putnam's Sons; 2023)
• When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Dr. Gabor Maté (Wiley; 2011)

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In an Orwellian twist, the word “Orwellian” has been misused so much over the decades that it’s essentially lost its meaning. But George Orwell, author of the classics Animal Farm and 1984, was very clear in his beliefs. While he was progressive and prescient in many ways, he wasn’t without his flaws. This week, Sean Illing explores the real George Orwell with Laura Beers, the author of Orwell's Ghosts: Wisdom and Warnings for the Twenty-First Century.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Laura Beers

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The US Constitution is a brilliant political document, but it’s far from perfect. This week’s guest, Erwin Chemerinsky, argues that many of today’s threats to democracy are a direct result of compromises made by the Founding Fathers centuries ago. Those mistakes have come back to haunt us, and they might destroy our democracy.

Erwin Chemerinsky’s latest book is No Democracy Lasts Forever.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Erwin Chemerinsky

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You can’t drop an f-bomb on the radio, but fortunately for our guest, you can say anything you want in a podcast. This week, host Sean Illing talks to philosopher Rebecca Roache, author of For F*ck’s Sake: Why Swearing Is Shocking, Rude, and Fun about the philosophy and linguistics of swearing, and why certain four-letter words hold the magical power to both offend and delight.

Warning: In case it’s not obvious, this episode contains swearing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rebecca Roache (@rebecca_roache)

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Sean Illing talks with political science professor Matt McManus about the political thought of Friedrich Nietzsche, the 19th-century German philosopher with a complicated legacy, despite his crossover into popular culture. They discuss how Nietzsche's work has been interpreted — and misinterpreted — since his death in 1900, how his radical political views emerge from his body of work, and how we can use Nietzsche's philosophy in order to interpret some key features of our contemporary politics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matt McManus.

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Authoritarian tendencies have been on the rise globally and the liberal world order is on the decline. One hotspot of this tension lies in India, where Prime Minister Narendra Modi employs autocratic language and tactics to maintain power. But a recent election may indicate that voters are losing interest in this style of rule. Guest host Zack Beauchamp talks with scholar Pratap Bhanu Mehta about the past of the Indian liberal tradition and what the current politics of the world’s largest democracy say about the state of global politics. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Pratap Bhanu Mehta

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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We’re living in an era of extreme partisan politics, rising resentment, and fractured news media. Writer John Ganz believes that we can trace the dysfunction to the 1990s, when right-wing populists like Pat Buchanan and white supremacist David Duke transformed Republican politics. He joins Sean to talk about the 1990s and how it laid the groundwork for Trump. His book is When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: John Ganz (@lionel_trolling). His book is When the Clock Broke. 

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Nathalie Etoke joins The Gray Area to talk about existentialism, the Black experience, and the legacy of dehumanization. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Nathalie Etoke. Her book is Black Existential Freedom.

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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A mile of pure fire. A flash that melts everything — titanium, steel, lead, people. A blast that mows down every structure in its path, 3 miles out in every direction. Journalist Annie Jacobsen spent years interviewing scientists, high-ranking military officials, politicians, and other experts to find out how a nuclear attack would be triggered, the devastation it would cause, the ruptures it would create in the social fabric, and how likely it is to happen today. She wrote about all of this in her new book Nuclear War: A Scenario. Jacobsen spends the hour clearly laying out the horrifying yet captivating specifics for Sean, and the prospects for avoiding catastrophe. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Annie Jacobsen. Her book is Nuclear War: A Scenario

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Albert Camus was a Nobel-winning French writer and public intellectual. During Algeria’s bloody war for independence in the 1950s, Camus took a measured stance, calling for an end to the atrocities on each side. He was criticized widely for his so-called “moderation.” Philosophy professor Robert Zaretsky joins Sean to discuss Camus’s thoughts on that conflict and the parallels with the present moment.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Robert Zaretsky

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Old people have always worried about young people. But psychologist Jonathan Haidt believes something genuinely different and troubling is happening right now. He argues that smartphones and social media have had disastrous effects on the mental health of young people, and derailed childhood from real world play to touchscreens. He joins Sean to talk about his research and some of the criticisms of it.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jonathan Haidt (@jonhaidt). His book is The Anxious Generation.

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Sebastian Junger came as close as you possibly can to dying. While his doctors struggled to revive him, the veteran reporter and avowed rationalist experienced things that shocked and shook him, leaving him with profound questions and unexpected revelations. In his new book, In My Time of Dying, Junger explores the mysteries and commonalities of people’s near death experiences. He joins Sean to talk about what it’s like to die and what quantum physics can tell us about living that countless religions can’t.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Sebastian Junger. His new book is In My Time of Dying.

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Ozempic and other new weight loss drugs are being touted as potential miracle cures for diabetes and obesity. Journalist Johann Hari experimented with the drug and dropped 40 pounds. In his new book, Magic Pill, Hari discusses his experience with Ozempic and speaks to many of the leading scientists to better understand how the drug works. He joins Sean to talk about what he’s learned and the complicated trade-offs involved in the decision to take these drugs.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Johann Hari (@johannhari101). His new book is Magic Pill.

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• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Cristian Ayala

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Religious studies professor Diana Pasulka was a total nonbeliever in alien life, but she began to question this after speaking with many people who claim to have had otherworldly encounters. She also noticed how these accounts parallel the foundational texts of many religions. She has since written two books on the topic, the most recent of which is Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences. She joins Sean to talk about extraterrestrial life, God, angels, and the renewed interest in UFOs. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Diana Pasulka (@dwpasulka). Her new book is Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences.

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Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kate Murphy, author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters

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The internet has fractured our world into a million little subcultures catering to the specific identities and habits of everyone online. Writer Derek Thompson believes this has led to a widespread cult-like mentality that has crept into all facets of modern life — pop culture, media, politics, and religion itself. He joins Sean to explain this theory, and why it’s maybe not such a bad thing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Derek Thompson (@dkthomp). His podcast is Plain English, and he writes for The Atlantic.

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Is it possible that we are living through one of the most revolutionary periods in human history? CNN’s Fareed Zakaria believes that we are and argues that the convergence of AI and the global backlash against liberal democracy are upending political orders around the world. He joins Sean to talk about how this period relates to history’s most impactful revolutions, both political and technological. 

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Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Fareed Zakaria (@fareedzakaria). His new book is Age of Revolutions.

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Philosophy may seem like a theoretical or abstract discipline in which unanswerable questions are debated to the point of tedium. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes that philosophical inquiry has a very practical and applicable purpose outside of the classroom — to help guide us through life’s most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kieran Setiya. His book is called Life is Hard.

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Jane Marie is an expert in American bullshit. Her podcast The Dream explores life coaching, wellness, marketing, and other fraudulent industries and exposes their exploitative practices. Her book, Selling the Dream, takes an even closer look at multilevel marketing schemes like Amway and Herbalife and gives historical context to this multibillion-dollar — and distinctly American — enterprise. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jane Marie. Her podcast is The Dream and her book is Selling the Dream.

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As a non-believer, Devin Moss never thought he would become a chaplain or a spiritual adviser, much less one who counsels hospital patients with terminal illnesses and inmates on death row. Devin joins Sean to talk about his improbable journey, the death penalty, and the role of religion in an increasingly secular society.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Devin Moss. His podcast is The Adventures of Memento Mori. 

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Journalist Rhaina Cohen believes that modern culture undervalues friendships and discusses the ways in which deep friendships are distinct from but no less meaningful than romantic partnerships. 

Guest host: Sigal Samuel (@sigalsamuel)

Guest: Rhaina Cohen (@rhainacohen). Her book is The Other Significant Others. 

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Stephen Markley’s novel, “The Deluge,” is an ambitious and terrifyingly realistic look at our collective future on a warming planet. He joins Sean to talk about the 10-year process of writing the book, the current political struggle over climate action, and how we can confront and mitigate the worst effects of climate change.  

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Stephen Markley. His book is “The Deluge.”

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It’s been 50 years since Ernest Becker’s breakthrough book The Denial of Death was first published, and its thesis has become more relevant than ever. Filmmaker Jef Sewell is the co-creator of a new documentary about Becker called All Illusions Must Be Broken. It features never-before-heard audio of the enigmatic anthropologist and puts his theories in a modern context. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jef Sewell. Find out more about the film at www.twobirdsfilm.com 

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Silicon Valley is in the middle of an AI frenzy, and many of its leaders believe this technology could eventually result in human extinction. Tyler Austin Harper breaks down the most outlandish predictions, some of the more plausible problems AI poses, and how this moment reminds him of earlier extinction panics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Tyler Austin Harper (@Tyler_A_Harper). Read his piece in the New York Times here. 

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America solidified its dominant posture in the international order following World War II and largely held that position for the following half-century. But as problems have accumulated at home and abroad, Americans are reconsidering their country’s role in the world, and so are its leaders. Alex Ward, author of The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, joins us. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alex Ward (@alexbward). His book is The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump.

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Sean Illing talks with economic historian Brad DeLong about his new book Slouching Towards Utopia. In it, DeLong claims that the "long twentieth century" was the most consequential period in human history, during which the institutions of rapid technological growth and globalization were created, setting humanity on a path towards improving life, defeating scarcity, and enabling real freedom. But... this ran into some problems. Sean and Brad talk about the power of markets, how the New Deal led to something approaching real social democracy, and why the Great Recession of 2008 and its aftermath signified the end of this momentous era.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: J. Bradford DeLong (@delong), author; professor of economics, U.C. Berkeley

References: 

• Slouching Towards Utopia: An Economic History of the Twentieth Century by J. Bradford DeLong (Basic; 2022)
• The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek (1944)
• The Great Transformation by Karl Polanyi (1944)
• Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy by Joseph Schumpeter (1942)
• "A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (This Land Magazine; 2009)
• "China's Great Leap Forward" by Clayton D. Brown (Association for Asian Studies; 2012)
• What Is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1840)
• The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle (Oxford University Press; 2022)
• Apple's "1984" ad (YouTube)
• The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes (1936)
• "The spectacular ongoing implosion of crypto's biggest star, explained" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Nov. 18)
• "Did Greenspan Add to Subprime Woes? Gramlich Says Ex-Colleague Blocked Crackdown" by Greg Ip (Wall Street Journal; June 9, 2007)
• "Families across the country are tightening their belts and making tough decisions. The federal government should do the same," from President Obama's 2010 State of the Union Address (Jan. 27, 2010)
• "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" by Karl Marx (1852)
• Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein (Simon & Schuster; 2020)
• The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Musician Laraaji joins Sean to talk about improvisation as meditation, the transcendent nature of laughter, and lessons from a long life in sound and spirit. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Laraaji. His music can be found at https://laraajimusic.bandcamp.com/

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Political philosopher Ingrid Robeyns believes that there should be a maximum amount of money and resources that one person can have. She tells Sean how much is too much and why limiting personal wealth benefits everyone, including the super rich. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ingrid Robeyns. Her book is Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth.

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Engineer: Cristian Ayala

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For much of her life, author Maggie Jackson disliked uncertainty and thought of it as something to eradicate as quickly as possible. But when she began to explore the uncertain mind, she discovered new scientific findings showing that uncertainty is critical for astute problem-solving and creativity.  She joins Sean to talk about what she learned and how being unsure can lead to a better, more hopeful life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Maggie Jackson. You can find her books and more at https://www.maggie-jackson.com/ 

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Americans have absorbed the “Protestant work ethic” — the idea that our value as human beings is determined by how hard we work and how much money we make. Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it sucks.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan. 

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If you’ve felt that learning new information or developing a new skill seems harder as you get older, you are not wrong. Neuroscientist Gul Dolen has studied brain capability and joins us to talk about the times in human development when our brains are especially adept at learning and retaining new information, and how MDMA and other psychedelics can be used to induce these moments and unlock the brain’s potential.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Gul Dolen. Learn more about her work at www.dolenlab.org.

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When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail. This episode was originally published on June 29th.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author

References: 

• Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
• Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
• The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
• The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
• The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
• The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
• The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
• Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
• It's OK That You're Not OK by Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
• Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
• Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Jon Kabat-Zinn helped kick off the American mindfulness movement with his bestselling book Wherever You Go, There You Are. On its 30th anniversary, he joins Sean for a wide-ranging conversation about what it means to be mindful in the attention economy, why mindfulness has skyrocketed in popularity, and how to think about the commercialization of an ancient practice.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jon Kabat-Zinn, mindfulness pioneer and author of Wherever You Go, There You Are. Learn more about his work at https://jonkabat-zinn.com and follow him at https://twitter.com/jonkabatzinn and https://www.facebook.com/kabatzinn

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Most people think anarchists want to live in a lawless society devoid of any structure or order. But anarchism is actually a serious political philosophy that’s more focused on egalitarianism than it is on chaos. Philosopher Sophie Scott-Brown is an anarchist in this tradition, and she makes the convincing case that anarchism is the only political philosophy poised to deal with the uncertainty of the modern world.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Sophie Scott-Brown research fellow at the University of St. Andrews and the Director of Gresham College in London, and the author of the book Colin Ward and the Art of Everyday Anarchy.

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• Engineer: Brandon McFarland

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Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, is joined by Emily Wilson to discuss her bestselling translations of The Iliad and The Odyssey. They unpack the buzz surrounding them and the significance of The Iliad today. 

Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture writer, Vox

Guest: Emily Wilson, classics professor and translator of The Iliad and The Odyssey

References: 

The Iliad by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson (W.W. Norton, 2023)

The Odyssey by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson (W.W. Norton, 2018) 

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Sean Illing is joined by John Gray, political philosopher and author of the new book, The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism. They discuss Thomas Hobbes and the origins of liberalism, the current state of democracy, and the very uncertain future of the global liberal order.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: John Gray, author and political philosopher

References: 

The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism by John Gray (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2023)

Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes (1651)

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Sean Illing speaks with Robert Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University and the author of a new book called Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will. They discuss the concept of free will, whether it actually exists in the way we think it does, and what it means for society if free will is indeed an illusion.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Robert Sapolsky, author, Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will

References: 

Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will by Robert M. Sapolsky (Penguin Random House, 2023)

Behave by Robert M. Sapolsky (Penguin Random House, 2018)

“Robert Sapolsky Doesn’t Believe in Free Will. (But Feel Free to Disagree.)” by Hope Reese (New York Times, October 2023)

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• Engineer: Rob Byers
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Zack Beauchamp, a Vox senior correspondent who writes about democracy and Israel, speaks with Shadi Hamid, a columnist at The Washington Post, research professor of Islamic studies at Fuller Seminary, and author of The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea. They discuss the October 7 attack, the subsequent war in Gaza, what it means for Israelis and Palestinians, and how Jews and Muslims in the United States can find common ground amidst their communities’ grief.

This conversation was recorded on November 2, 2023.

Host:  Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp), senior correspondent at Vox 

Guest: Shadi Hamid, (@shadihamid), columnist and Editorial Board member at The Washington Post, research professor of Islamic studies at Fuller Seminary, and author of The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea. 

References: 

“Reducing Hamas’s terrorism to a problem of ‘evil’ is a mistake” by Shadi Hamid (The Washington Post, Oct. 2023)

The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea by Shadi Hamid (Oxford University Press, 2022)

“Everything you need to know about Israel-Palestine: A comprehensive guide to the basics of the world’s most controversial conflict” by Zack Beauchamp (Vox)

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This episode was made by: 

Engineer: Rob Byers

Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing is joined by Matt Gutman, the chief national correspondent for ABC News, to talk about his new book, No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks. They discuss their personal experiences with panic, the evolutionary roots of it, and how Matt has gained control over his feelings of panic and anxiety.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matt Gutman (@mattgutmanABC), author, No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks.

References: 

No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks by Matt Gutman (Penguin Random House, 2023)

“The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life” by Sean Illing (Vox, February 2018)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson speaks with Walt Hickey about his new book, You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything. They discuss how entertainment affects the physical and mental states of viewers — from blood coagulation during horror movie screenings to an increase in Dalmatian adoptions after 101 Dalmatians was released in theaters — and why our responses to what we watch are worth celebrating.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Walt Hickey, (@walterhickey) author, You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything

References: 

You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything by Walt Hickey (Workman Publishing Company, 2023)

“How to Use Math to Crush Your Friends at Monopoly Like You've Never Done Before” by Walt Hickey (Business Insider, Jun. 2013)

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Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog. Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the new memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. They discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work. Illing also asks him a range of big questions, such as why he is interested in Mars and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All

References: 

Every Man for Himself and God Against All by Werner Herzog (Penguin Random House, 2023) 

Of Walking in Ice by Werner Herzog

Last Whispers by Lena Herzog (2022)

“Werner Herzog Talks Virtual Reality” by Patrick House (The New Yorker, Jan. 2016)

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• Producer: Katelyn Bogucki
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Michael Lewis joins Sean Illing to discuss his new book about Sam Bankman-Fried, Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. They talk about the FTX crash, what Lewis learned while shadowing Bankman-Fried, and what SBF’s rise and fall says about us and our financial systems.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Michael Lewis, author, Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon

References: 

Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2023)

The Big Short: Inside the Doomsday Machine by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2010)

The Blind Side: Evolution of a Game by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2007)

Moneyball: The Art of Winning An Unfair Game by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2004)

Liar’s Poker by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 1989)

“Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself” by Kelsey Piper (Vox, Nov. 2022)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing and David Brooks talk about Brooks’s recent essay, “How America Got Mean.” They discuss the country's moral history, how politics and culture have shifted our perception of connection and community, and what can be done to make things nicer.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: David Brooks (@nytdavidbrooks), author and op-ed columnist

References: 

• “How America Got Mean” by David Brooks (The Atlantic, August 2023)
• How to Know a Person by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• The Road to Character by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2016)
• The Social Animal by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2012)
• The Upswing: How America Came Together a Century Ago and How We Can Do It Again by Robert D. Putnam (Simon & Schuster, 2021)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Every generation thinks they’re living through the strangest times, but is our generation right? Sean Illing speaks with writer and activist Naomi Klein about her new book, Doppelganger: A Trip Into the Mirror World. They discuss how a much different Naomi — her doppelganger — scrambled her professional life and led to an unexpected plunge into the ironies and absurdities of our digital world.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Naomi Klein (@NaomiAKlein), author of Doppelganger and the co-director of the Centre for Climate Justice

References: 

Doppelganger by Naomi Klein (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2023)

The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism (Picador, 2008)

No Logo: No Space, No Choice, No Jobs by Naomi Klein (Picador, 1999)

Backlash by Susan Faludi (1991)

The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power by Shoshana Zuboff (PublicAffairs, 2019)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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How worried should we be about AI? Sean Illing is joined by Stuart J. Russell, a professor at the University of California Berkeley and director of the Center for Human-Compatible AI. Russell was among the signatories who wrote an open letter asking for a six-month pause on AI training. They discuss the dangers of losing control of AI and what the upsides of this rapidly developing technology could be. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Stuart J. Russell, professor at the University of California Berkeley and director of the Center for Human-Compatible AI

References: 

• Pause Giant AI Experiments: An Open Letter
• “AI has much to offer humanity. It could also wreak terrible harm. It must be controlled.” by Stuart Russell (The Observer, April 2023)
• Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach by Stuart J. Russell and Peter Norvig (Pearson Education International) 
• Human-Compatible: Artificial Intelligence and the Problem of Control by Stuart Russell (Penguin Random House, 2020)
• “A Conversation With Bing’s Chatbot Left Me Deeply Unsettled” by Kevin Roose (New York Times, February 2023)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why is democracy worth saving? Sean Illing is joined by Astra Taylor, the author of the new book The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart. They discuss the history and reality of insecurity and how we can fight for more sustainable and meaningful democratic politics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Astra Taylor (@astradisastra), author, The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart 

References: 

• The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart by Astra Taylor (House of Anansi Press, 2023)
• “What is democracy?” by Astra Taylor 
• The Waste Makers by Vance Packard (Longmans, Green and Co. Ltd, 1960)
• Decades of Decadence: How Our Spoiled Elites Blew America's Inheritance of Liberty, Security, and Prosperity by Marco Rubio (HarperCollins, 2023) 

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What will American politics look like after Trump? Sean Illing is joined by Sohrab Ahmari to discuss his new book, Tyranny, Inc. Ahmari is one of the conservative intellectuals trying to map out a post-Trump future for the Republican Party, and his book is an attempt to justify a form of democratic socialism from the right. The two discuss whether his vision could ever be the basis for a broader coalition.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Sohrab Ahmari (@SohrabAhmari), author, Tyranny, Inc.

References: 

• Tyranny, Inc. by Sohrab Ahmari (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• American Capitalism: The Concept of Countervailing Power by John Galbraith (Routledge, 1993)
• Thus Spake Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche
• “Social Democracy and Social Conservatism Aren’t Compatible” by Matt McManus (Jacobin, August 2023)

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• Engineer: Erica Huang
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why don’t we spend more time imagining a better future? Sean Illing is joined by Kristen R. Ghodsee, the author of Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life. They discuss why it’s hard to imagine better outcomes in life, what we can learn from experimental living communities, and what the pandemic proved about our adaptability.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kristen R. Ghodsee, author, Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life

References:

Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life by Kristen R. Ghodsee (Simon & Schuster, 2023)

Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism: And Other Arguments for Economic Independence by Kristen R. Ghodsee (Hachette, 2018)

Life of Pythagoras, or Pythagoric Life, by (Chalcidensis) Iamblichus

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• Engineer: Erica Huang
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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In this episode, which was originally published in August 2022, Sean Illing talks with Corey Robin, author of a 2019 book about the life and thought of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Robin discusses how Thomas — whose concurring opinion in the case that overturned Roe v. Wade garnered recent attention — developed the ideological basis of his extremist judicial philosophy, how his views went from the hard-right fringe to more mainstream over the course of his 30 years on the Supreme Court, and how the failures of the 1960s movements shaped his fundamental pessimism about racial progress in America.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Corey Robin (@CoreyRobin), author; professor of political science, Brooklyn College and CUNY Graduate Center

References: 

• The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin (Metropolitan; 2019)
• "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecies of Clarence Thomas" by Corey Robin (New Yorker; July 9)
• Clarence Thomas's opening statement, Anita Hill hearing (C-SPAN; Oct. 11, 1991)
• Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (1952)
• Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022); Thomas's concurrence
• American Negro Slave Revolts by Herbert Aptheker (1943)
• Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution - 1863–1877 by Eric Foner (1988; updated 2014)
• The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in An Age of Diminishing Expectations by Christopher Lasch (Norton; 1979)
• The Rhetoric of Reaction by Albert O. Hirschman (Harvard; 1991)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What does masculinity mean these days? Sean Illing speaks with Christine Emba, a columnist at The Washington Post who wrote the piece “Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness.” Together they discuss the confusing state of manhood, why figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate hold appeal, and how masculinity could be redefined.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba), Washington Post columnist and author of Rethinking Sex: A Provocation

References:

• “Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness” by Christine Emba (The Washington Post, July 10, 2023)
• Rethinking Sex: A Provocation by Christine Emba (Sentinel, 2022)
• “Did the sexual revolution go wrong?” from The Gray Area (Vox, May 11, 2022)
• “Men and boys are struggling. Should we care?” from The Gray Area (Vox, December 12, 2022)
• “The Rage and Joy of MAGA America” by David French (The New York Times, July 6, 2023)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What does it mean to be “authentic” in the digital age? Sean Illing speaks with Tara Isabella Burton about her new book, Self-Made: Creating Our Identities From Da Vinci to the Kardashians. They discuss the history of self-creation, how it’s evolved into personal branding, and why a more collective mindset could benefit all of us.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Tara Isabella Burton (@NotoriousTIB), author of Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian

References: 

• Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2023)
• Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2022)
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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In the ‘80s and ‘90s, MDMA (also known as molly or ecstasy) was dismissed as a club drug and became the target of anti-drug propaganda. Today, it’s on the brink of being legalized for use in clinical therapy to treat conditions like PTSD. How did that happen? And what have we learned about the therapeutic potential of MDMA? Sean discusses all this with Rachel Nuwer, author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World. They talk about why they’re excited by the research underway and what it might mean for everyone's well-being.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rachel Nuwer (@RachelNuwer), journalist and author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World

References: 

“The extraordinary therapeutic potential of psychedelic drugs, explained,” by Sean Illing (Vox; March 8, 2019)

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

“Rolling under the Sea: Scientists Gave Octopuses Ecstasy to Study Social Behavior,” by Rachel Nuwer (Scientific American, December 1, 2018)

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Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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There are many ways people are trying to know themselves these days – from taking the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test to analyzing their astrological birth charts to identifying their attachment styles. But are any of these methods helpful? Allie Volpe, a senior reporter at Vox, discusses this with Mitch Green, a philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut and author of the book Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledge. Together they explore why there’s an increased interest in self-knowledge, the merits of self-discovery, and the best way to truly know ourselves.

Host: Allie Volpe (@allieevolpe), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Mitch Green, Philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut

References: 

• “A personality test can’t tell you who you are” by Allie Volpe (Vox, Jun. 2023)
• Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledge by Mitchell S. Green (2017, Routledge)
• “Why the Meyers-Briggs test is totally meaningless” by Joseph Stromberg and Estelle Caswell (Vox, Oct. 2015)
• Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious by Timothy D. Wilson (Harvard University Press, 2004)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Does being a parent today necessarily mean also being a climate activist? Sean Illing speaks with moral philosopher and political theorist Elizabeth Cripps about her new book Parenting on Earth, in which she discusses the real-life moral obligations of raising children in our current ecological crisis. Drawing from her experience raising two daughters, Elizabeth and Sean talk about how both to want the best for your children and to build a better society, the conflicts that arise from putting trust in institutions, and arguments made by some that we shouldn't be having kids at all.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Elizabeth Cripps (@ebcripps), senior lecturer in political theory, University of Edinburgh; author

References: 

• Parenting on Earth: A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right By Your Kids and Everyone Else by Elizabeth Cripps (MIT Press; 2023)
• What Climate Justice Means And Why We Should Care by Elizabeth Cripps (Bloomsbury; 2022)
• "Moral Saints" by Susan Wolf (Journal of Philosophy, vol. 79 no. 8; Aug. 1982)
• Family Values: The Ethics of Parent-Child Relationships by Harry Brighouse and Adam Swift (Princeton University Press; 2014)
• How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm (Verso; 2021)
• "The case for a more radical climate movement" by Sean Illing (Vox; Oct. 1, 2021)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author

References: 

• Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
• Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
• The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
• The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
• The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
• The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
• The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
• Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
• It's OK That You're Not OK by Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
• Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
• Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Carrie Jenkins about her new book Sad Love, and her call to rethink the shape and boundaries of romantic love. In this far-ranging discussion about the meaning of romantic love, Sean and Carrie discuss the connection between love and happiness, what we should expect (and not expect) from our romantic partners, and whether or not loving a person must entail that we love only that person.

This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in September 2022.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Carrie Jenkins (@carriejenkins), writer; professor of philosophy, University of British Columbia

References: 

• Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning by Carrie Jenkins (Polity; 2022)
• "A philosopher makes the case for polyamory" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 16, 2018)
• What Love Is: And What It Could Be by Carrie Jenkins (Basic; 2017)
• Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre (1949)
• Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (see Book I, or Book X.6-8 for robust discussion of eudaimonia)
• Marina Adshade, economist
• Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl (1946; tr. Ilse Lasch)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Cristian Ayala
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with evolutionary anthropologist David Samson, whose new book Our Tribal Future delves into how tribalism has shaped the human story — and how we might be able to mitigate its negative effects in the future. Sean and David discuss how and when tribal organization came on the scene, what changed in human organization when it did, and how taking advantage of some positive aspects of tribal alignment could provide a path toward inoculating humanity against stubborn, regressive divisiveness.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: David Samson (@Primalprimate), professor of anthropology, University of Toronto; author

References: 

• Our Tribal Future: How to Channel Our Foundational Human Instincts into a Force for Good by David R. Samson (St. Martin's; 2023)
• "Dunbar's number" by Robin Dunbar (New Scientist)
• The Nunn Lab, Duke University
• PDF: Surgeon General's Advisory on Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation (May 3)
• "Human Response to Disaster" by Charles E. Fritz (Proceedings of the HFES, vol. 18 no. 3; 1974)
• Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari (Signal; 2014)
• The Expanding Circle: Ethics, Evolution, and Moral Progress by Peter Singer (Princeton; 2011)
• "Peter Singer on his ethical legacy" (The Gray Area; May 25)
• Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society by Nicholas A. Christakis (Little Brown Spark; 2019)
• Bill Nye debates Ken Ham (Feb. 4, 2014)
• God and Evolution? The Implications of Darwin's Theory for Fundamentalism, the Bible, and the Meaning of Life by Daniel J. Samson (Solon; 2006)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What do we do when an artist we love does something monstrous? Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, talks with Claire Dederer, the author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma. They discuss how to reckon with the facts and feelings of consuming art by someone who's done something bad, if it's possible to separate the art from the artist, and what responsibility — if any — comes with being a fan.

Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture and gender writer

Guest: Claire Dederer, author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma 

References: 

• Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” by Claire Dederer (The Paris Review, 2017)
• Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Ofill (Penguin Random House, 2014)
• Mad at Miles: A Blackwoman’s Guide to Truth by Pearl Cleage (Cleage Group Publication, 1990)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy at University of Missouri Kansas City, about his powerful new book How Not to Kill Yourself, which combines personal memoir and philosophical analysis to explore what it means to pursue self-destruction. They discuss wisdom from the Buddha and Albert Camus, Clancy's view that he is a suicide "addict," and concrete strategies for escaping the grip of suicidal thoughts.

If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, the suicide and crisis lifeline can be reached by dialing 988.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy, University of Missouri-Kansas City; author

References: 

• How Not to Kill Yourself: A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind by Clancy Martin (Pantheon; 2023)
• Facts about suicide (from the CDC, and the WHO
• James Hillman, Suicide and the Soul (1973)
• "Lessons from jumping off the Golden Gate bridge—survivor shares his story to help others" by Keisha Reynolds (MyCG; Sept. 8, 2022)
• Arthur Schopenhauer, On the Suffering of the World (1850)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What is the future of the racial justice movement in America? Sean Illing talks with Cedric Johnson, professor and author of After Black Lives Matter, about building a protest movement that meaningfully recognizes the underlying economic causes of the social inequities highlighted by the BLM movement. They discuss the demonstrations of Summer 2020, the prospects of building a multiracial class-conscious coalition, and viewing urban policing as a symptom of larger systemic problems.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Cedric Johnson, professor of Black Studies and Political Science, University of Illinois Chicago

References: 

• After Black Lives Matter: Policing and Anti-Capitalist Struggle by Cedric G. Johnson (Verso; 2023)
• "Amid Protests, Majorities Across Racial and Ethnic Groups Express Support for Black Lives Matter Movement" (Pew Research Center; June 12, 2020)
• "Veto-proof majority of Minneapolis council members supports dismantling police department" by Brandt Williams (MPR; June 7, 2020)
• "'I'm not angry at all': Owner of looted Chicago photo shop vows to rebuild" by Ben Harris (Times of Israel; June 3, 2020)
• "Notes Toward a New Society: Rousseau and the New Left" by Marshall Berman (Partisan Review, 38 (4); Fall 1971)
• "Marshall Berman's Freestyle Marxism" by Max Holleran (The New Republic; Apr. 14, 2017)
• Achieving Our Country: Leftist Thought in Twentieth-Century America by Richard Rorty (Harvard University Press; 1999)
• Violence Work: State Power and the Limits of Police by Micol Seigel (Duke University Press; 2018)
• "The systemic issues revealed by Jordan Neely's killing, explained" by Nicole Narea and Li Zhou (Vox; May 12)
• The American Revolution: Pages from a Negro Worker's Notebook by James Boggs (1963)
• "Official Poverty Measure Masks Gains Made Over Last 50 Years" by Arloc Sherman (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities; Sept. 2013)
• "300 transit ambassadors become new sets of eyes and ears for LA Metro" by Steve Scauzillo (Daily News; Mar. 6)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Have clicks, likes, and shares driven media and democracy to the point of disrepair? Sean Illing is joined by Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor and the author of "Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral." Together, they discuss how newsrooms were transformed by social media and the pursuit of traffic, and what the future of the industry might look like.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ben Smith (@semaforben), editor-in-chief of Semafor, author of Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral

References: 

• Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral by Ben Smith (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• “How corporations got all your data” by The Gray Area (Vox, Mar. 2023)

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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing speaks with history professor Robert Zaretsky about Simone Weil, a 20th-century French writer and activist who dedicated her life to a radical philosophy of love and attention. They discuss how she inspired her contemporaries — like Albert Camus and Simone de Beauvoir — and how her revolutionary ideas have remained relevant and important.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Robert Zaretsky, history professor, The University of Houston

References: 

• The Subversive Simone Weil: A Life in Five Ideas by Robert Zaretsky (The University of Chicago Press, 2021)
• “The Philosophers: Resisting Despair” by Sean Illing (Vox, May 2022)
• The Ethics of Attention: Engaging the Real with Iris Murdoch and Simone Weil by Silvia Caprioglio Panizza (Routledge, 2022)

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Can we live a good life in a world where animals are factory farmed? Guest host Dylan Matthews talks with the world-famous ethicist Peter Singer, author of Animal Liberation Now, the newly revised edition of his movement-founding 1975 work. They talk about the progress made by the animal rights movement — and the issues it still faces. Dylan also questions Singer on other aspects of his career as an outspoken popularizer of philosophy and ethics, including his positions on physician-assisted dying, abortion rights, and effective altruism.

Host: Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), senior correspondent, Vox

Guest: Peter Singer (@PeterSinger), Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics, Princeton University; author

References: 

• Animal Liberation Now by Peter Singer (Harper Perennial; 2023), an updated version of Animal Liberation by Peter Singer (HarperCollins; 1975)
• Peter Singer Live on Stage: tickets and more info
• "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer (New York Review of Books, Apr. 5, 1973)
• Unsanctifying Human Life: Essays on Ethics by Peter Singer (Wiley-Blackwell; 2002)
• Practical Ethics by Peter Singer (Cambridge; 1979)
• "Unspeakable Conversations" by Harriet McBryde Johnson (NYT Magazine; Feb. 16, 2003)
• "Famine, Affluence, and Morality" by Peter Singer (Philosophy & Public Affairs, vol. 1 no. 3; Spring, 1972)
• Giving What We Can
• Jeremy Bentham, An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789)
• "Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself" by Kelsey Piper (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
• The St. Petersburg Paradox
• Henry Sidgwick, The Methods of Ethics (1874)
• Moral Thinking by R.M. Hare (Oxford; 1982)
• Ethics and the Limits of Philosophy by Bernard Williams (Harvard; 1986)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Are we responsible for keeping poor people poor? Sean Illing is joined by Matt Desmond, a sociology professor at Princeton University and the author of the books Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City and Poverty, by America. They discuss why most Americans are unaware of their privilege and how their choices perpetuate poverty. They also discuss the power and hope that can come from bringing awareness to these choices and why abolishing poverty is possible.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matthew Desmond, Sociology professor, and author of Poverty, by America

References: 

• Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• Evicted: Poverty And Profit In The American City by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2017)
• “Why even brilliant scholars misunderstand poverty in America” by Dylan Matthews (Vox, Mar. 2023) 

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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The pandemic caused many to rethink our relationship to work. But how did that relationship develop in the first place? Sean Illing talks with George Blaustein, professor of American Studies, about the legacy and influence of Max Weber, the German theorist whose best-known work is The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (1905) — which, Blaustein says, is often misunderstood. In the summer of 2020, George wrote an essay interpreting Weber's ideas on the psychology of work, the origins of capitalism, and the isolation of modernity — just as it looked like everything might change.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: George Blaustein (@blauwsteen), senior lecturer of American Studies and History, University of Amsterdam; editor, European Review of Books

References: 

• "Searching for Consolation in Max Weber's Work Ethic" by George Blaustein (The New Republic; July 2, 2020)
• The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber (1905; tr. by Talcott Parsons, 1930)
• The Vocation Lectures, by Max Weber: "Science as a Vocation" (1917) & "Politics as a Vocation" (1919). Published together as Charisma and Disenchantment: The Vocation Lectures (NYRB, 2020; translated by Damion Searls)
• Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin (1536)
• Der Amerikamüde by Nikolaus Lenau (1855)
• The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels (1848)
• Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber (Simon & Schuster; 2018)
• "Bullshit jobs: why they exist and why you might have one" by Sean Illing (Vox; Nov. 9, 2019)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What do we know — and what don't we know — about how the human mind works? Sean Illing talks with Paul Bloom, professor of psychology and author of the new book Psych: The Story of the Human Mind. In this conversation, Sean and Paul talk about some of the most interesting and confounding questions in psychology. They discuss the problematic theories of some giants in the history of the field, the way that AI might change psychology, and whether or not the discipline is any closer to understanding the nature of mental illness.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloomatyale), Professor of Psychology, University of Toronto; Professor Emeritus, Yale University; author

References: 

• Psych: The Story of the Human Mind by Paul Bloom (Ecco; 2023)
• The Replication Crisis (Psychology Today)
• Freud's "primal scene" is taken from his "From the History of an Infantile Neurosis" (a.k.a. the "Wolf Man" case) (1918)
• The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by Geoffrey Miller (Anchor; 2001)
• Aspects of the Theory of Syntax by Noam Chomsky (MIT Press; 1965)
• On Geoffrey Hinton: "'The Godfather of A.I.' Leaves Google and Warns of Danger Ahead" by Cade Metz (New York Times; May 1)
• "The looming threat of AI to Hollywood, and why it should matter to you" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; May 2)
• "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (1995)
• A.I. Artificial Intelligence, dir. by Steven Spielberg (2001)
• "Development of the default-mode network during childhood and adolescence" by F. Fan et al. (Neuroimage; Feb. 2021)
• The Infant Cognition Center at Yale
• The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH)

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• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Brandon McFarland
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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There are many debates within the American left, but the fundamental dispute is over the viability of the current system. Part of the left wants a revolution, and part wants reform. Sean Illing is joined by Eric Levitz, a features writer for New York magazine’s Intelligencer. They discuss the revolution versus reform divide and what can be done to navigate the US’s capitalist and constitutional systems in order to advance the left’s agenda.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Eric Levitz (@EricLevitz), features writer, New York Magazine’s Intelligencer 

References: 

• “Blaming ‘Capitalism’ Is Not an Alternative to Solving Problems” by Eric Levitz (April, 2023 New York Magazine)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Will AI change what it means to be human? Sean Illing talks with essayist Meghan O'Gieblyn, author of God, Human, Animal, Machine, a book about how the way we understand human nature has been interwoven with how we understand our own technology. They discuss the power of metaphor in describing fundamental aspects of being human, the "transhumanism" movement, and what we're after when we seek companionship in a chatbot.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn, essayist; author

References: 

• God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021)
• The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil (Penguin; 1999)
• The Sociology of Religion by Max Weber (1920)
• "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (1995)
• The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976)
• "Routine Maintenance" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Harper's; Jan. 2022)
• "Babel" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (n+1; Summer 2021)
• The Society of Mind by Marvin Minsky (Simon & Schuster; 1986)
• Job (Old Testament), 38:1 – 42:6
• "The Google engineer who thinks the company's AI has come to life" by Nitasha Tiku (Washington Post; June 11, 2022)
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1880)
• "Will AI Achieve Consciousness? Wrong Question" by Daniel Dennett (WIRED; Feb. 19, 2019)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why don't more philosophers take psychedelic drugs seriously as a means of examining reality? Sean Illing talks with Justin Smith-Ruiu, professor of philosophy, whose recent essay "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" tells of how experimenting with psilocybin and other substances led to a radical reevaluation of nearly everything in his life — including his views on the nature of reality. They discuss the roots of an alternative worldview in the thought of German polymath G.W. Leibniz, what it means to say — as Socrates does — that philosophy is "preparation for death," and why psychedelics aren't more often explored in contemporary philosophy.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Justin Smith-Ruiu, philosopher; author

References: 

• "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" by Justin E.H. Smith (Wired; Mar. 7)
• Justin Smith-Ruiu's Hinternet (Substack)
• The Internet Is Not What You Think It Is by Justin E.H. Smith (Princeton; 2022)
• "The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life" by Sean Illing (Vox; Nov. 2, 2019)
• G.W. Leibniz, "The Monadology" (1714)
• René Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy (1641)
• Irrationality: A History of the Dark Side of Reason by Justin E.H. Smith (Princeton; 2019)
• Plato, Phaedo (for Socrates's claim that philosophy is preparation for death)
• Reality+ by David Chalmers (W.W. Norton; 2022)
• David Chalmers on The Gray Area (Jan. 10, 2022)
• Justin's review of David Chalmers: "The World as a Game" (Liberties, vol. 2 no. 4)
• "The Death of Ivan Ilych" by Leo Tolstoy (1886)
• How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan (Penguin; 2018)

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What happens when you apply the Socratic method to personal relationships? Philosopher Agnes Callard joins Sean Illing to discuss how Socrates inspires her public philosophy project —including the decision to share the details of her love life and how these pursuits have created a more thoughtful and meaningful life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Agnes Callard, (@agnescallard), philosopher, University of Chicago

References: 

• “Agnes Callard’s Marriage Of The Minds” by Rachel Aviv (Mar. 2023, The New Yorker)
• ”Everyone Desires the Good: Socrates' Protreptic Theory of Desire” by Agnes Callard (June 2017, The Review of Metaphysics)
• “A Philosopher Gets Fed Up With Profundity” by Agnes Callard (Mar. 2023, The Atlantic)
• Plato, Gorgias
• Plato, Symposium
• Plato, Meno

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Could our brains make us less lonely? Sean Illing talks with psychiatrist and author Julie Holland, whose new book Good Chemistry takes on the crisis of disconnectedness we face today. They discuss the brain chemistry of attachment and human connection, how psychedelics can be used both in therapeutic contexts and to help us feel more connected to others, and the toll that this crisis of isolation can take on us — emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Julie Holland, MD (@BellevueDoc), psychiatrist; medical advisor to MAPS; author

References: 

• Good Chemistry: The Science of Connection from Soul to Psychedelics by Julie Holland (Harper; 2022)
• "Work and the Loneliness Epidemic" by Vivek Murthy (Harvard Business Review; Sept. 26, 2017)
• "Loneliness in U.S. Subsides From Pandemic High" by Dan Witters (Gallup; Apr. 4)
• The Red Book by Carl Jung (written from 1914–1930; pub. Norton; 2009)
• "People would rather be electrically shocked than left alone with their thoughts" by Nadia Whitehead (Science; July 3, 2014)
• "Mammalian central nervous system trace amines" by Mark D. Berry (Journal of Neurochemistry; vol. 90 (2), July 2004)
• "The connection between oxytocin and autism, explained" by Peter Hess (Spectrum; Jan. 6, 2022)
• Moody Bitches by Julie Holland (Penguin; 2016)
• "Youth Suicide Risk Increased Over Past Decade" by Farzana Akkas (Pew; Mar. 3)
• "MAPS predicts FDA approval for MDMA-assisted therapy in 2024" by Brian Buntz (Drug Discovery & Development ; Jan. 27)
• "Psychedelics May Be Part of U.S. Medicine Sooner Than You Think" by Jamie Ducharme (TIME; Feb. 8)
• Alex & Allyson Grey
• "Can magic mushrooms unlock depression?" by Dr. Rosalind Watts (Medium; Feb. 28, 2022)
• How Psychedelics Can Help Save the World by Stephen Gray; foreword by Julie Holland (Park Street Books; 2022)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene."

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author 

References: 

• The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023)
• The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008)
• The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005)
• A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020)
• "Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan. 3, 2022)
• "January 6 Was Only the Beginning" by Jeff Sharlet (Vanity Fair; June 22, 2022)
• "Man who rested feet on desk in Pelosi's office on Jan. 6 found guilty on 8 counts" by Hannah Rabinowitz and Holms Lybrand (CNN; Jan. 23)
• "Marjorie Taylor Greene got into a screaming match with Rep. Cheney over 'Jewish space lasers' comment" by Azmi Haroun (Insider; Oct. 21, 2021)
• "If you see an all-black American flag, what does that mean?" by Matt Gregory and Mia Salenetri (WUSA9; Nov. 12, 2021)
• "What does the end of Roe mean for IVF?" by Bridgit Bowden (Wisconsin Public Radio; July 6, 2022)
• "The Blast That Changed Everything" by Preston Schmitt and Doug Erickson (On Wisconsin magazine; Summer 2020)

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Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kate Murphy, author,You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters

References: 

• You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters by Kate Murphy (Celadon Books, 2020)
• “This is your brain on communication” by Uri Hasson (TED, 2016)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Sean Illing is joined by Anand Giridharadas, author of The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy. Together they discuss how polarity is a threat to our democracy, the organizing efforts that are effective, and why there's hope for a less divisive future in America.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Anand Giridharadas (@AnandWrites), author 

References: 

• The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy by Anand Giridharadas (Penguin Random House, 202)
• Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World (Penguin Random House, 2022)
• Amanda Marcotte
• “Meet the woman behind Libs of TikTok, secretly fueling the right’s outrage machine” by Taylor Lorenz (The Washington Post, Apr. 19th, 2022) 
• Anat Shenker-Osorio
• People’s Action Institute 

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Rep. Katie Porter became well-known for using a whiteboard and asking tough questions during Congressional hearings. Her frank questions resonated with the public because they represented the concerns of so many Americans. In this episode, she joins Sean Illing to discuss her "brand" of authenticity, the problem with having so many millionaires in Congress, and her new book, I Swear: Politics Is Messier Than My Minivan.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rep. Katie Porter (@RepKatiePorter), U.S. Representative from the 47th Congressional District in Orange County, California.

References: 

• I Swear: Politics Is Messier Than My Minivan by Representative Katie Porter (Penguin Random House, 2023)

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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Dorothy Fortenberry, a co-showrunner, executive producer, and writer on Extrapolations, the new star-studded anthology series on Apple TV+ that imagines the ravages of climate change deeper and deeper into the future. Alissa and Dorothy discuss the challenges of making film and television about the climate crisis, the role that religion plays on the show and in addressing the emotional responses to climate change in our lives, and how climate change can rob us not only of our future — but of our past.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Dorothy Fortenberry (@Dorothy410berry), writer/executive producer, Extrapolations on Apple TV+

References: 

• Extrapolations on Apple TV+
• "Laudato Si': On Care for our Common Home," encyclical of Pope Francis (May 24, 2015)
• "A Review: The Lotus Paradox at Warehouse Theatre" (Jan. 31, 2022)
• "Latin Mass, women priests, celibacy? Climate change will make all the church's arguments pointless" by Dorothy Fortenberry (America; Oct. 27, 2021)

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This episode was made by: 

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What would drive someone to renounce all their possessions, relationships, and ambitions to join a religious community? Sean talks with Zena Hitz, whose new book A Philosopher Looks at the Religious Life explores this question — drawing from her own experience. They discuss the occasionally perplexing relationship between faith and reason, why Hitz thinks the act of renunciation is the pinnacle of Christian belief, and why the radicalism at the heart of Christianity seems so absent from mainstream practice.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Zena Hitz, (@zenahitz) author; tutor, St. John's College

References: 

• A Philosopher Looks at the Religious Life by Zena Hitz (Cambridge; 2023)
• Lost In Thought: The Hidden Pleasures of an Intellectual Life by Zena Hitz (Princeton; 2020)
• The Madonna House in Combermere, Ontario, Canada
• Confessions by St. Augustine (401 AD)
• Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1866)

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Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with professor of philosophy and law Nita Farahany about her new book The Battle for Your Brain. In it, Farahany details the new brain-scanning tech that has already arrived, and the risks this poses to our privacy and freedom of thought. Sigal and Nita discuss what this technology can currently do (and what it can't), how new devices might be used by corporations or governments to infringe on our rights, and the prospect of using new technologies to rid ourselves of painful or traumatic memories — even, potentially, before they've been formed.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Nita Farahany (@NitaFarahany), author; professor of philosophy & Robinson O. Everett Professor of Law, Duke University

References: 

• The Battle for Your Brain: Defending the Right to Think Freely in the Age of Neurotechnology by Nita A. Farahany (St. Martin's; 2023)
• "Your brain may not be private much longer" by Sigal Samuel (Vox; March 17)
• "BGU develops wearable advanced warning system for epileptic seizures" (Jerusalem Post; Sept. 29, 2020)
• "Elon Musk shows off updates to his brain chips and says he's going to install one in himself when they are ready" by Ashley Capoot (CNBC; Dec. 1, 2022)
• "Brain-implant companies balk at moves to regulate their nascent tech" by Sarah McBride (Los Angeles Times; Feb. 19)
• "NHS trials headset that claims to zap depression" by Katie Prescott (The Times; Jan. 23)
• "Australian man uses brain implant to send texts from his iPad" by Kristin Houser (Freethink; Nov. 12, 2022)
• "Is 'brain fingerprinting' a breakthrough or a sham?" by Russell Brandom (The Verge; Feb. 2, 2015)
• "China Claims It's Scanning Workers' Brainwaves to Increase Efficiency and Profits" by Samantha Cole (VICE; May 1, 2018)
• "Incriminating Thoughts" by Nita A. Farahany (Stanford Law Review, vol. 64 (2); Feb. 2012)
• John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" (1859)
• Immanuel Kant, Critique of Practical Reason (1788)
• "Non-conscious brain modulation may help PTSD patients forget their fears" by Brooks Hays (UPI; Feb. 23, 2021)
• No Mud, No Lotus: The Art of Transforming Suffering by Thich Nhat Hanh (Parallax Press; 2019)

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Will the Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit against Fox News be a watershed moment? Is the media industry beyond repair? Sean Illing is joined by media reporter Brian Stelter, the former host of CNN’s Reliable Sources and the author of Hoax. Together, they reflect on the relationship of news, entertainment, and politics and what the consequences of the Dominion suit might be.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Brian Stelter, (@brianstelter) author; former TV news host; media reporter

References: 

• Hoax by Brian Stelter (Simon & Schuster, 2021)
• Top of the Morning: Inside the Cutthroat World of Morning TV by Brian Stelter (Grand Central, 2019)
• “How Not to Cover a Bank Run” by Brian Stelter (The Atlantic, March 2023)
• “I Never Truly Understood Fox News Until Now” by Brian Stelter (The Atlantic, February 2023)
• “Mass Delusion in America” by Jeffrey Goldberg (The Atlantic, January 2021)
• Brian Stelter’s Substack

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Sean Illing speaks with Matthew Jones, historian of science and technology, and co-author (with data scientist Chris Wiggins) of the new book How Data Happened. They discuss the surprisingly long history of data from the 18th century to today, in service of explaining how we wound up in a world where our personal information is mined by giant corporations for profit. They talk about how the allure of measurement and precision spread from astronomy to the social sciences, why advertising became so bound to the operation of the internet, and how we can imagine a more democratic future for us and our data, given the unprecedented power of today's tech companies.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matthew L. Jones (@nescioquid), author; James R. Barker Professor of Contemporary Civilization, Columbia University

References: 

• How Data Happened: A History from the Age of Reason to the Age of Algorithms by Chris Wiggins and Matthew L. Jones (W.W. Norton; 2023)
• "How Alan Turing Cracked The Enigma Code" (Imperial War Museum)
• Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass media by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky (1988)
• "The manipulation of the American mind: Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations" by Richard Gunderman (The Conversation; July 9, 2015)
• On Herbert Simon (The Economist; Mar. 20, 2009)
• The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff (Profile; 2019)
• Jeffrey Hammerbacher quoted in "This Tech Bubble Is Different" by Ashlee Vance (Bloomberg Businessweek; Apr. 14, 2011)

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Is our society's fixation with success hindering our ability to find humility? Sean Illing speaks with Costica Bradatan about his new book In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility, which explores failure through the lives of historical figures like Gandhi and the philosopher Simone Weil. They discuss the benefits of engaging with our limits and what we can learn from those who've embraced failure.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Costica Bradatan, Professor at Texas Tech University and Honorary Research Professor of Philosophy at University of Queensland in Australia, Religion/Philosophy editor for the Los Angeles Review of Books, and author of In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility.

References: 

• In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility by  Costica Bradatan (Harvard University Press, 2023)
• The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus, translated by Justin O'Brien (Vintage Books, 1991)
• The Birth of Tragedy by Friedrich Nietzsche, translated by Walter Kaufman (1872)
• The Trouble with Being Born by E.M. Cioran, translated by Richard Howard (Arcade Publishing, 1973)

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Sean Illing speaks with poet and historian Jennifer Michael Hecht, whose new book The Wonder Paradox asks: if we don't have God or religion, what — if anything — do we lose? They discuss how religion accesses meaning — through things like prayer, ceremony, and ritual — and Jennifer speaks on the ways that poetry can play similar roles in a secular way. They also discuss some of the "tricks" that poets use, share favorite poems, and explore what it would mean to "live the questions" — and even learn to love them — without having the answers.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jennifer Michael Hecht (@Freudeinstein), poet, historian; author

References: 

• The Wonder Paradox: Embracing the Weirdness of Existence and the Poetry of Our Lives by Jennifer Michael Hecht (FSG; 2023)
• Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht (HarperOne; 2004)
• Rainer Maria Rilke, from a 1903 letter to Franz Kappus, published in Letters to a Young Poet (pub. 1929)
• Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1855)
• "Why do parrots live so long?" by Charles Q. Choi (LiveScience; May 23, 2022)
• "The survival of poetry depends on the failure of language," from The Tree of Meaning: Language, Mind, and Ecology by Robert Bringhurst (Counterpoint; 2009)
• "Traveler, There Is No Road" ("Caminante, no hay camino") by Antonio Machado (1917)
• "A Free Man's Worship" by Bertrand Russell (1903)
• Totality and Infinity: An Essay on Exteriority by Emmanuel Levinas (1961)

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In America, there's been an increase of available jobs, and there's also been a series of high-profile layoffs, strikes, and calls for unionization. The social safety net for workers is disappearing, so what can people do? Sean Illing speaks with Alissa Quart about her new book, Bootstrapped: Liberating Ourselves from the American Dream, about why people need to rid themselves of the American Dream's individualistic ideals and embrace dependence in order to succeed.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alissa Quart (@lisquart), author of nonfiction and poetry, and co-creator of the Economic Hardship Reporting Project

References: 

• Bootstrapped: Liberating Ourselves from the American Dream by Alissa Quart (Harper Collins, 2023)
• Squeezed: Why Our Families Can’t Afford America by Alissa Quart (Harper Collins, 2019)
• Tailspin: The People and Forces Behind America’s Fifty-Year Fall–And Those Fighting To Reverse It by Steven Brill (Penguin Random House, 2018)

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The giant panda is no longer endangered. This, of course, is good news. But the model of conservation that worked to protect these iconic bears has failed to help the countless other threatened species on Earth, most of which are far less charismatic. Guest host Benji Jones talks with Jason Gilchrist, a wildlife ecologist. They discuss if there is another way we should approach conservation, what exactly we should be trying to save, and why.

Host: Benji Jones (@BenjiSJones), Senior Environmental Reporter, Vox

Guest: Jason Gilchrist (@jgilchrist13), ecologist and lecturer at Edinburgh Napier University

References: 

• “We pulled pandas back from the brink of extinction. Meanwhile, the rest of nature collapsed.” by Benji Jones (Vox, 2023)

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• Special thanks to Katelyn Bogucki

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Sean Illing speaks with marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon, whose new book The Origins of You aims to help us identify and heal the wounds that originated from our family, which shape our patterns of behavior in relationships and throughout our lives. Sean and Vienna talk about how we can spot and name our "origin wounds," discuss practical wisdom to help break free from the ways these pains grip us, and Sean directly confronts some real issues from his upbringing and family life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Vienna Pharaon (@mindfulmft), marriage & family therapist; author

References: 

• The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love by Vienna Pharaon (G.P. Putnam's Sons; 2023)
• When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Dr. Gabor Maté (Wiley; 2011)

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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Dr. Robin R. Means Coleman about her new book, The Black Guy Dies First: Black Horror Cinema from Fodder to Oscar. Dr. Coleman is the Vice President & Associate Provost for Diversity and Inclusion and Chief Diversity Officer at Northwestern University, where she is a Professor of Communication Studies. Together, they discuss the tropes in Black horror, and how inequity in Hollywood has shaped the attitudes of a nation toward Black people.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Dr. Robin R. Means Coleman (@MeansColeman), co-author of The Black Guy Dies First: Black Horror Cinema from Fodder to Oscar, Vice President & Associate Provost for Diversity & Inclusion, Professor of Communication Studies

References: 

• The Black Guy Dies First: Black Horror Cinema from Fodder to Oscar by Robin R. Means Coleman and Mark H. Harris (Simon & Schuster, 2023)
• Horror Noire: A History Of Black Horror  (Xavier Burgin, 2021)

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Sean Illing talks with political science professor Matt McManus about the political thought of Friedrich Nietzsche, the 19th-century German philosopher with a complicated legacy, despite his crossover into popular culture. They discuss how Nietzsche's work has been interpreted — and misinterpreted — since his death in 1900, how his radical political views emerge from his body of work, and how we can use Nietzsche's philosophy in order to interpret some key features of our contemporary politics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matt McManus (@MattPolProf), lecturer, University of Michigan; author

Referenced works by Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900):

• Ecce Homo (1888; published posthumously), Thus Spoke Zarathustra (1883), Beyond Good and Evil (1886), Twilight of the Idols (1888), The Birth of Tragedy (1872), The Antichrist (1888; published posthumously), The Gay Science (1882)

References: 

• Nietzsche and the Politics of Reaction: Essays on Liberalism, Socialism, and Aristocratic Radicalism, ed. Matthew McManus (Palgrave; 2023)
• The Political Right and Equality: Turning Back the Tide of Egalitarian Modernity by Matthew McManus (Routledge; forthcoming)
• Nietzsche's Great Politics by Hugo Drochon (Princeton; 2016)
• Nietzsche's Letter to Georg Brandes (Dec. 2, 1887)
• Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist by Walter Kaufmann (Princeton; 2013)
• “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers?” from Nietzsche's The Gay Science, §125 (1882; tr. W. Kaufmann)
• "Atheist bus campaign spreads the word of no God nationwide" by Riazat Butt (The Guardian; Jan. 6, 2009)
• "Since Copernicus man has been rolling from the center toward X," from Nietzsche's The Will To Power, published posthumously in 1901.
• Immanuel Kant, Metaphysics of Morals (1797)
• Kierkegaard's Attack Upon "Christendom", 1854-1855 (tr. Walter Lowrie)
• Nietzsche, the Aristocratic Rebel by Domenico Losurdo (Brill; 2019)
• Joseph de Maistre, Considerations on France (1797)
• "Does Liberalism Mean Supporting Communism?" by Matthew McManus (Liberal Currents; Jan. 4, 2022)
• Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth (1963)
• United States of Socialism by Dinesh D'Souza (All Points; 2020)
• "The alt-right is drunk on bad readings of Nietzsche. The Nazis were too" by Sean Illing (Vox; Dec. 30, 2018)
• The Third Reich series by Richard J. Evans
• Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged (1957)

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Sean Illing speaks with Malcolm Harris, a journalist, critic, and author of the new book Palo Alto: A History of California, Capitalism, and the World. Together, they discuss the weird history of the city that's birthed Stanford University, Hewlett Packard, Theranos, and the model of capitalism that's made an impact across the globe.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Malcolm Harris (@BigMeanInternet), journalist, critic and author

References: 

• Palo Alto: A History of California, Capitalism, and the World by Malcolm Harris (Little Brown; 2023)
• Kids These Days: Human Capital and the Making of Millennials by Malcolm Harris (Little Brown; 2017)
• "CDC investigates why so many students in wealthy Palo Alto, Calif., commit suicide" by Yanan Wang (The Washington Post, Feb. 16th, 2016)
• “The undocumented workers who built Silicon Valley” by Louis Hyman (The Washington Post, Aug. 30th, 2018)
• Stanford University Land Acknowledgement
• "Meet The PayPal Mafia, the Richest Group Of Men In Silicon Valley" by Charlie Parrish (The Telegraph, Sep. 20th, 2014)

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Guest host Rebecca Jennings talks with Justin Charity, cultural critic and senior staff writer at The Ringer, about what it means to be dubbed a "hater" on the internet. Rebecca and Justin talk about the role of criticism and the evolving ways in which critics and fans clash online. They discuss how a bad review (or a review seen as bad) can spark a far-ranging backlash, how the meme-ified cry of "let people enjoy things" has been taken from its original context, and what — if anything — might change the dynamics between fans and critics.

Host: Rebecca Jennings (@rebexxxxa), senior correspondent, Vox

Guest: Justin Charity, senior staff writer, The Ringer; co-host of the Sound Only podcast

References: 

• "'Hater' doesn't have to be a dirty word" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; Jan. 18)
• "2022 Was the Year of the Metaverse — Until It Wasn't" by Justin Charity (The Ringer; Dec. 29, 2022)
• "Why Did Everyone Claim to Enjoy Kendrick Lamar's 'To Pimp A Butterfly'?" by Justin Charity (Complex; Nov. 3, 2015)
• "Jake Paul Exposed as $2.2M Serial Crypto Scammer" by Robert D. Knight & Levy Prata (Beincrypto; Mar. 8, 2022)
• "Taylor Swift Super Fans Are Furious About a Good Review" by Gita Jackson (Vice; July 31, 2020)
• "The YouTubers are not okay" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; May 10, 2022)
• "How 'let people enjoy things' became a fight against criticism" by Constance Grady (Vox; May 16, 2019)
• The original "let people enjoy things" webcomic, by Adam Ellis (Feb. 3, 2016)
• "Like This or Die" by Christian Lorenzen (Harpers; Apr. 2019)
• @talialichtstein on TikTok
• "Meet the most obsessive Bill Simmons fans online" by Luke Winkie (The Outline; Jan. 2, 2020)

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Sean Illing speaks with Rosa Brooks, a former reserve police officer and current law professor at Georgetown University. Brooks wrote Tangled Up in Blue: Policing the American City about her experience going through the police academy and becoming a cop on the streets of Washington, DC. They discuss what she saw during her time on the force, some of the differences between how cops see their jobs and how things are, and what could be done differently to fix American policing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rosa Brooks (@brooks_rosa), author; professor of law and policy, Georgetown University

References: 

• Tangled Up in Blue: Policing the American City by Rosa Brooks (Penguin; 2021)
• “Any situation can turn lethal in an instant, and other lessons I learned at the police academy” by Rosa Brooks (Los Angeles Times; Feb. 21, 2021)
• "New Perspectives in Policing: From Warriors to Guardians" by: Sue Rahr and Stephen K. Rice (PDF; NIJ and The Harvard Kennedy School)

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Guest host Fabiola Cineas talks with author, lawyer, and organizer Derecka Purnell about her recent book Becoming Abolitionists. They discuss Derecka's journey to defending the idea of police abolition, and what that position really entails. They explore questions about the historical and social role of policing in society, how to imagine a future where we radically rethink our system of criminal justice, and how we can acknowledge and incorporate current data about crime — while still rethinking our inherited assumptions about police.

This was originally released in Jan. 2022 as an episode of Vox Conversations.

Host: Fabiola Cineas (@FabiolaCineas), reporter, Vox.com

Guest: Derecka Purnell (@dereckapurnell), author

References: 

• Becoming Abolitionists: Police, Protests, and the Pursuit of Freedom by Derecka Purnell (Astra House; 2021)
• Police shootings database 2015-2023 (Washington Post)
• The Black Jacobins: Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution by C.L.R. James (Vintage; 1989)
• Black Reconstruction in America 1860–1880 by W.E.B. Du Bois (1935)
• "One American city's model of policing reform means building 'social currency'" by Nathan Layne (June 12, 2020; Reuters)
• "The Camden Police Department is Not a Model for Policing in the Post-George Floyd Era" by Brendan McQuade (June 12, 2020; The Appeal)
• "Murder Rose by Almost 30% in 2020. It's Rising at a Slower Rate in 2021" by Jeff Asher (Sept. 22, 2021; New York Times)

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• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Paul Robert Mounsey
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing speaks with Alana Newhouse, the editor-in-chief of Tablet magazine. They discuss her recent essay on "brokenism," a term she coined in an effort to redefine political divisions in America. Newhouse argues that the most salient divide right now is between those who want to fix the institutions we have and those who want to burn it all down and start fresh.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alana Newhouse (@alananewhouse) editor-in-chief, Tablet

References: 

• “Brokenism” by Alana Newhouse (Tablet, Nov. 21, 2022)
• “Everything is Broken” by Alana Newhouse (Tablet, Jan. 14, 2021)
• "See Workers as Workers, Not as a College Credential" by The New York Times Editorial Board (Jan. 28)

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Sean Illing talks with Noah Hawley, the creator and showrunner of the anthology drama Fargo on FX, as well as a celebrated novelist whose newest book is Anthem (2022). They discuss themes stemming from Hawley's recent piece in the Atlantic about myths, stories, and tropes from the Old West (and Hollywood) that are still powerful and active in shaping American society. Hawley also talks about why we're drawn to shows like Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead, what to expect on the forthcoming fifth season of Fargo, and what his new novel says about the future.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Noah Hawley (@noahhawley), novelist; tv/film director

References: 

• "It's High Noon in America" by Noah Hawley (The Atlantic; Dec. 19, 2022)
• Anthem by Noah Hawley (Grand Central; 2022)
• Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death by Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
• "'Duck Dynasty' vs. 'Modern Family': 50 Maps of the U.S. Cultural Divide" by Josh Katz (New York Times; Dec. 27, 2016)
• "The sex-trafficking investigation of Matt Gaetz, explained" by Amber Phillips (Washington Post; Jan. 27, 2022)
• The Trial by Franz Kafka (1925)

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Sean Illing talks with Glory Liu, the author of Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism. Smith is most well-known for being the “father of capitalism,” but as Liu points out in her book, his legacy has been misappropriated — especially in America. They discuss his original intentions and what we can take away from his work today.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Glory Liu (@miss_glory), author; lecturer, Harvard University

References: 

• Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism by Glory Liu (Princeton; 2022)
• Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life by Nicholas Phillipson (Yale; 2012)
• Free to Choose: A Personal Statement by Milton & Rose Friedman (Harcourt; 1980)
• “Adam Smith’s ‘History of Astronomy’ and view of science” by Kwangsu Kim (Cambridge Journal of Economics v. 36; 2012)

Works by Adam Smith:

• The Wealth of Nations (1776)
• Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759)
• Lectures on Jurisprudence (1763)

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Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with Holden Karnofsky about effective altruism, a movement flung into public scrutiny with the collapse of Sam Bankman-Fried and his crypto exchange, FTX. They discuss EA’s approach to charitable giving, the relationship between effective altruism and the moral philosophy of utilitarianism, and what reforms might be needed for the future of the movement.

Note: In August 2022, Bankman-Fried’s philanthropic family foundation, Building a Stronger Future, awarded Vox’s Future Perfect a grant for a 2023 reporting project. That project is now on pause.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Holden Karnofsky, co-founder of GiveWell; CEO of Open Philanthropy

References: 

• "Effective altruism gave rise to Sam Bankman-Fried. Now it's facing a moral reckoning" by Sigal Samuel (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
• "The Reluctant Prophet of Effective Altruism" by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (New Yorker; Aug. 8, 2022)
• "Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself" by Kelsey Piper (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
• "EA is about maximization, and maximization is perilous" by Holden Karnofsky (Effective Altruism Forum; Sept. 2, 2022)
• "Defending One-Dimensional Ethics" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Feb. 15, 2022)
• "Future-proof ethics" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Feb. 2, 2022)
• "Bayesian mindset" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Dec. 21, 2021)
• "EA Structural Reform Ideas" by Carla Zoe Cremer (Nov. 12, 2022)
• "Democratising Risk: In Search of a Methodology to Study Existential Risk" by Carla Cremer and Luke Kemp (SSRN; Dec. 28, 2021)

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Sean Illing talks with writer and reporter Jerusalem Demsas about the causes of homelessness in America. They discuss our ideas of home ownership, and how our country’s cultural expectations and policies are working against us. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jerusalem Demsas (@JerusalemDemsas) staff writer, The Atlantic

References: 

• “The Homeownership Society Was a Mistake” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Dec. 20, 2022)
• “The Obvious Answer to Homelessness and Why Everyone’s Ignoring It” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Dec. 12, 2022)
• “The Billionaire’s Dilemma” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Aug. 4, 2022)
• “Stuck! The Law and Economics of Residential Stagnation” by David Schleicher (Yale Law Review; Oct. 2017)
• “Black Americans And The Racist Architecture of Homeownership” by Alisa Chang, Christopher Intagliata, and Jonaki Mehta (NPR; May 8, 2021)

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Sean Illing talks with author Thomas Chatterton Williams about race and identity in America. Thomas has analyzed racial identity through the lens of his own upbringing, and the performativity and pressures he experienced. In conversation with Sean, Thomas speaks about how he sees these identities as restrictive connections to the racial oppressions of the past, whether it's possible to achieve liberation without sacrificing solidarity, and on the complex interplay between race and class.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Thomas Chatterton Williams (@thomaschattwill), author; contributing writer, The Atlantic

References: 

• Self-Portrait in Black and White: Family, Fatherhood, and Rethinking Race by Thomas Chatterton Williams (W.W. Norton; 2019)
• Losing My Cool: Love, Literature, and a Black Man's Escape from the Crowd by Thomas Chatterton Williams (Penguin; 2011)
• White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo (Beacon; 2018)
• "Camus' Stance on Algeria Still Stokes Debate in France" by Eleanor Beardsley (NPR; Nov. 7, 2013)
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1880)
• Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates (One World; 2018)
• South to a Very Old Place by Albert Murray (Vintage; 1991)
• "The limits of anti-racism" by Adolph Reed (2009)

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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Timnit Gebru, the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. She studies the ethics of artificial intelligence and is an outspoken critic of companies developing new AI systems. Sean and Timnit discuss the power dynamics in the world of AI, the discriminatory outcomes that these technologies can cause, and the need for accountability and transparency in the field.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Timnit Gebru (@timnitGebru), founder, Distributed AI Research Institute

References: 

• “The Exploited Labor Behind Artificial Intelligence" by Adrienne Williams, Milagros Miceli, and Timnit Gebru (Noema; Oct. 13, 2022)
• “Effective Altruism is Push a Dangerous Brand of ‘AI Safety’” by Timnit Gebru (Wired; Nov. 30, 2022)
• Datasheets for Datasets by Timnit Gebru, et al. (CACM; Dec. 2021)
• “In Emergencies, Should You Trust a Robot?” by John Toon (Georgia Tech; Feb. 29, 2016)
• “We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google. Here’s what it says” by Karen Hao (MIT Technology Review; Dec. 4, 2020)
• “On the Dangers of Stochastic Parrots: Can Language Models Be Too Big?” by Timnit Gebru, et al. (Proceedings of the 2021 ACM Conference on Fairness, Accountability, and Transparency; March 2021)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with philosopher and author Martha Nussbaum about her new book, Justice for Animals. Martha discusses several different ethical, legal, and metaphysical theories for how we humans should treat other non-human animals, and offers her own distinct new approach.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Martha Nussbaum, author; Ernst Freund Distinguished Service Professor of Philosophy, U. Chicago

References: 

• Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility by Martha Nussbaum (Simon & Schuster; 2022)
• Drawing the Line: Science and the Case for Animal Rights by Steven M. Wise (Basic; 2003)
• Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved by Frans de Waal (Princeton; 2006)
• Animal Liberation: A New Ethics for Our Treatment of Animals by Peter Singer (1975)
• Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to Other Animals by Christine Korsgaard (Oxford; 2018)
• Political Liberalism by John Rawls (1993)
• The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)
• "Ag-Gag" Laws in the United States (Animal Legal Defense Fund)
• Zoopolis: A Political Theory of Animal Rights by Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka (Oxford; 2011)

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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Cornel West about the American philosophical tradition known as pragmatism. They talk about what makes pragmatism so distinctly American, how pragmatists understand the connection between knowledge and action, and how the pragmatist mindset can invigorate our understanding of democratic life and communal action today. Cornel West also talks about the ways in which pragmatism has influenced his work and life, alongside the blues, Chekhov, and his Christian faith.

This was an episode of The Philosophers, a series from Vox Conversations, originally released in May.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews writer, Vox

Guest: Cornel West (@CornelWest), author; Dietrich Bonhoeffer professor of philosophy & Christian practice, Union Theological Seminary

References to works by American pragmatists: 

• Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882): "Self-Reliance" (1841)
• William James (1842–1910): Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking (1907); The Varieties of Religious Experience (1902); "Is Life Worth Living?" (1895)
• Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914): "The Fixation of Belief" (1877)
• John Dewey (1859–1952): The Quest for Certainty (1929); "Emerson—The Philosopher of Democracy" (1903); The Public and Its Problems (1927)
• Richard Rorty (1931–2007): "Pragmatism, Relativism, and Irrationalism" (1979); "Solidarity or Objectivity?" (1989)

Other references: 

• Cornel West Teaches Philosophy (MasterClass)
• The American Evasion of Philosophy: A Genealogy of Pragmatism by Cornel West (Univ. of Wisconsin Press; 1989)
• The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1925)
• Plato, Republic (refs. in particular to Book 1 and Book 8)
• The Phantom Public by Walter Lippmann (1925)
• Leopardi: Selected Poems of Giacomo Leopardi (1798–1837), tr. by Eamon Grennan (Princeton; 1997)
• "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus (1942; tr. 1955)
• Democracy & Tradition by Jeffrey Stout (Princeton; 2003)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Washington Post media columnist Margaret Sullivan about his new book The Paradox of Democracy, which he co-authored with media studies professor Zac Gershberg. Sean and Margaret discuss the relationship between free expression and democratic society, talk about whether or not the January 6th hearings are doing anything at all politically, and discuss some potential ways to bolster democratic values in the media ecology of the present.

This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in July.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Margaret Sullivan (@Sulliview), media columnist, Washington Post

References: 

• The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (Chicago; 2022)
• Ghosting the News: Local Journalism and the Crisis of American Democracy by Margaret Sullivan (Columbia Global Reports; 2020)
• "Four reasons the Jan. 6 hearings have conquered the news cycle" by Margaret Sullivan (Washington Post; July 22)
• Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
• Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman (1985)
• Newsroom Confidential: Lessons (and Worries) from an Ink-Stained Life by Margaret Sullivan (St. Martin's; Oct. 2022)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Katelyn Beaty, author of the new book Celebrities for Jesus, about how the dynamics of fame, influence, and new media are changing our experience of religious faith. They discuss how celebrities like Billy Graham set the tone for a lionization of celebrity in the Evangelical Church, why faith leaders cultivate distance from their congregations and build influencer-style social media presences, and share their thoughts on the future of the Church in our perhaps increasingly celebrity-obsessed culture.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Katelyn Beaty (@KatelynBeaty), author

References: 

• Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church by Katelyn Beaty (Brazos; 2022)
• "Inside Hillsong, the Church of Choice for Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant" by Taffy Brodesser-Akner (GQ; Dec. 17, 2015)
• "After Columbine, martyrdom became a powerful fantasy for Christian teenagers" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; Apr. 17, 2019)

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Sean Illing talks with author, researcher, and Brookings Institution senior fellow Richard V. Reeves about his new book Of Boys and Men, which documents the ways that males all over the industrialized world are struggling — and what to do about it. Sean and Richard talk about how this crisis among men has its roots in the progress societies have made toward gender equality, about what has been exposed as the playing field has become more level, and about how to challenge our traditional understandings of masculinity and fatherhood in order to address the crisis — which, Reeves says, will be to everybody's benefit.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Richard V. Reeves (@RichardvReeves), author; senior fellow, Brookings Institution; director, Future of the Middle Class Initiative

References: 

• Of Boys And Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It by Richard V. Reeves (Brookings; 2022)
• "The State of American Friendship: Change, Challenges, and Loss" by Daniel A. Cox (American Survey Center; June 8, 2021)
• Unbound: How Inequality Constricts Our Economy and What We Can Do about It by Heather Boushey (Harvard; 2019)
• "Gender Achievement Gaps in U.S. School Districts" by Sean F. Reardon et al. (American Educational Research Journal vol. 56 (6); Apr. 25, 2019)
• "The GOP's masculinity panic: David French on the cult of toughness on the Trumpist right" by Sean Illing (Jan. 5; episode here or here)
• "Infrastructure Bill Must Create Pathways for Women To Enter Construction Trades" by Marina Zhavoronkova and Rose Khattar (Center for American Progress; Sept. 20)
• 12 Rules for Life by Jordan B. Peterson (Random House Canada; 2018)
• "Few Good Men" by Kathryn Edin (American Prospect; Dec. 19, 2001)
• "Redshirt the Boys: Why boys should start school a year later than girls" by Richard V. Reeves (The Atlantic; Sept. 14)
• "What might interrupt men's suicide? Results from an online survey of men" by Fiona L. Shand et al. (BMJ vol. 5 (10); Oct. 15, 2015)

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Sean Illing talks with Michael Sacasas, an author and teacher exploring the relationship between technology and society in his newsletter, The Convivial Society. This conversation is all about attention: what it exactly is, what its purpose is, and how it is under threat by the technology of modern society and its ubiquitous distractions. Michael calls upon venerated philosophers (like Simone Weil and Iris Murdoch) as well as contemporary writers (like Nicholas Carr and Jenny Odell) to make the case that figuring out how to command our attention is a matter of great moral significance, and is a crucial component of living a good life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: L. Michael Sacasas (@LMSacasas), author of the newsletter The Convivial Society on Substack; associate director, Christian Study Center of Gainesville

References: 

• The Frailest Thing: Ten Years of Thinking About the Meaning of Technology by L.M. Sacasas (Gumroad; 2019)
• "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut (1961)
• "Is Google Making Us Stupid?" by Nicholas Carr (The Atlantic; July/August 2008)
• Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
• Blaise Pascal on Diversion, from the Pensées (1670)
• "Reflections on the Right Use of School Studies with a View to the Love of God" by Simone Weil (1942)
• "The idea of perfection" by Iris Murdoch (1964)
• "Against Dryness" by Iris Murdoch (1961)
• Simone Weil, letter to Joë Bousquet, Apr. 13, 1942: "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity."
• "On Two Ways of Relating to the World" by L.M. Sacasas (The Convivial Society, Nov. 22)
• How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell (Melville House; 2019)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with James Fallows, veteran reporter and editor at The Atlantic, about the state of political journalism in America. Fallows has been covering the relationship between media and democracy since the mid-nineties, when his book Breaking the News presciently documented the roots of a growing mistrust in news media. Sean and James talk about the dangers facing the political press today, why national political news is not useful to most Americans, and what can be done to regain the people's trust in journalism.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: James Fallows (@JamesFallows), author of the newsletter, Breaking the News: Dispatches from a Veteran Reporter on Substack

References: 

• Breaking the News: How the Media Undermine American Democracy by James Fallows (Vintage; 1996)
• Ashley Parker's tweet (Nov. 22)
• "Exclusive: Naomi Biden On Her White House Wedding" by Chloe Malle (Vogue; Nov. 22)
• Our Towns: A 100,000-Mile Journey Into the Heart of America by James Fallows and Deborah Fallows (Vintage; 2018)
• Our Towns (HBO; 2021)
• Local Independent Online News (LION) Publishers
• "Leslie Moonves on Donald Trump: 'It May Not Be Good for America, but It's Damn Good for CBS'" by Paul Bond (Hollywood Reporter; Feb. 29, 2016)
• Public Opinion by Walter Lippmann (1922)
• "Correcting the Record; Times Reporter Who Resigned Leaves Long Trail of Deception" by Dan Barry et al. (New York Times; May 11, 2003)
• "Weapons of Mass Destruction? Or Mass Distraction?" by Daniel Okrent (New York Times; May 30, 2004)
• "3 Truths About Trump" by James Fallows (The Atlantic; July 13, 2015)
• The Paradox of Democracy by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with technology writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about the state of social media — especially in the wake of Elon Musk's recent acquisition of Twitter. They discuss the recent but surprising history of the platforms that have come to dominate the lives of so many, and note a crucial shift that made social media what is today. Sean and Ian also talk about how Silicon Valley views "scale," whether Twitter should be treated as a public utility, and how — as a society — we might be able to quit.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ian Bogost (@ibogost), contributing writer, The Atlantic; professor and director of film & media studies, Washington University of St. Louis

References: 

• "The Age of Social Media Is Ending" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Nov. 10)
• "The Madness of Twitter" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Nov. 22)
• "People Aren't Meant to Talk This Much" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Oct. 22, 2021)
• "Facebook Is A Doomsday Machine" by Adrienne LaFrance (The Atlantic; Dec. 15, 2020)
• Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
• The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg & Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Dr. Gabor Maté, a physician, speaker, and bestselling author who has written on subjects like addiction, stress, and attention deficit disorder. In Maté's new book, The Myth of Normal, he argues that the Western paradigm of health is fundamentally flawed in its attempt to separate inner, emotional well-being from bodily health. Sean and Dr. Maté discuss how our society and culture can contribute to illness. They also talk about the adverse effects of trauma, the therapeutic potential of psychedelics, and parenting.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Dr. Gabor Maté (@DrGaborMate), author; physician

References: 

• The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture by Gabor Maté, MD, with Daniel Maté (Avery; 2022)
• "Mothers Are the 'Shock Absorbers' of Our Society" by Jessica Grose (New York Times; Oct. 14, 2020)
• "'It's Life or Death': The Mental Health Crisis Among U.S. Teens" by Matt Richtel (New York Times; Apr. 23)
• Scattered Minds: The Origin and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorder by Gabor Maté, MD (Jan. 2023; Avery. Previously published as Scattered, 2000)
• "The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 19, 2018)
• "How to discipline your child and toddler, without hitting - Jordan Peterson" (YouTube; Mar. 15, 2018)
• Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté, MD (Ballantine; 2006)
• "A Theory of Human Motivation" by Abraham H. Maslow (Psychological Review vol. 50; 1943)

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This episode was made by: 

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with economic historian Brad DeLong about his new book Slouching Towards Utopia. In it, DeLong claims that the "long twentieth century" was the most consequential period in human history, during which the institutions of rapid technological growth and globalization were created, setting humanity on a path towards improving life, defeating scarcity, and enabling real freedom. But... this ran into some problems. Sean and Brad talk about the power of markets, how the New Deal led to something approaching real social democracy, and why the Great Recession of 2008 and its aftermath signified the end of this momentous era.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: J. Bradford DeLong (@delong), author; professor of economics, U.C. Berkeley

References: 

• Slouching Towards Utopia: An Economic History of the Twentieth Century by J. Bradford DeLong (Basic; 2022)
• The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek (1944)
• The Great Transformation by Karl Polanyi (1944)
• Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy by Joseph Schumpeter (1942)
• "A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (This Land Magazine; 2009)
• "China's Great Leap Forward" by Clayton D. Brown (Association for Asian Studies; 2012)
• What Is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1840)
• The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle (Oxford University Press; 2022)
• Apple's "1984" ad (YouTube)
• The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes (1936)
• "The spectacular ongoing implosion of crypto's biggest star, explained" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Nov. 18)
• "Did Greenspan Add to Subprime Woes? Gramlich Says Ex-Colleague Blocked Crackdown" by Greg Ip (Wall Street Journal; June 9, 2007)
• "Families across the country are tightening their belts and making tough decisions. The federal government should do the same," from President Obama's 2010 State of the Union Address (Jan. 27, 2010)
• "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" by Karl Marx (1852)
• Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein (Simon & Schuster; 2020)
• The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

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This episode was made by: 

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with neuroscientist Gregory Berns, author of The Self Delusion. Berns claims that the idea of a unified, persistent self is a kind of illusion, and that we are better understood as multiple selves at different moments in time, tied together by a story — which is what we call our identity. Sean and Greg also talk about whether the brain is a computer, how perception works, the limits of thinking too much about thinking, and what psychedelics can do to disrupt and change the stories we tell about ourselves.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Gregory Berns (@gberns), author; professor of psychology and distinguished professor of neuroeconomics, Emory University

References: 

• The Self Delusion: The New Neuroscience of How We Invent — and Reinvent — Our Identities by Gregory Berns (Basic; 2022)
• More on the "Ship of Theseus" by Noah Levin
• "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (Journal of Consciousness Studies 2; 1995)
• More on "The Hard Problem of Consciousness" by Josh Weisberg (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
• "The extraordinary therapeutic potential of psychedelic drugs, explained" by Sean Illing (Vox; Mar. 8, 2019)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with veteran political strategist James Carville about the U.S. midterm elections — and the surprising success for Democrats that was a far cry from the "red wave" of Republican victories widely predicted by pundits. They talk about why the results differed so vastly from these expectations, what lessons both parties should be drawing from the outcomes, and whether or not the Democratic party, despite their victories, still have a systematic problem with political messaging.

This conversation took place mid-day on Wednesday, November 9th.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: James Carville (@JamesCarville), political strategist; co-host, Politics War Room podcast

References: 

• Fall 2022 Harvard Youth Poll (Oct. 27)
• Exit poll data from ABC News and CNN
• "'Wokeness is a problem and we all know it': James Carville on the state of Democratic politics" by Sean Illing (Vox; Apr. 27, 2021)
• "GOP to use debt limit to force spending cuts, McCarthy says" by Eugene Robinson (Washington Post; Oct. 18)
• 2022 abortion-related ballot measures (Ballotpedia)
• "Democrats' Long Goodbye to the Working Class" by Ruy Teixeira (The Atlantic; Nov. 6)
• "Is John Fetterman the Future of the Democratic Party?" by Michael Sokolove (New York Times; May 18)
• On Carville's role in the abortion referendum campaign in Kansas: "The Most Consequential Vote in Recent American History is Happening Today and the News Media Is Ignoring It" by Colby Hall (Mediaite; Aug. 2nd)
• "How a 10-Year-Old Rape Victim Who Traveled for an Abortion Became Part of a Political Firestorm" by Solcyre Burga (Time; July 15)
• "Democrats still have a path to keep the House — but it's tough" by Andrew Prokop (Vox; Nov. 10)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with technologist, media theorist, and author Douglas Rushkoff, whose new book Survival of the Richest explains how the ultra-wealthy are obsessed with preparing for the end of the world — and the troubling mindset that leads many rich and powerful people down this road. They discuss the blend of tech utopianism and fatalism behind this doomsday prepping, how Silicon Valley and "tech bro" culture have incentivized a kind of misanthropy, and why the world's billionaire class can't see that the catastrophes they fear are of their own making.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Douglas Rushkoff (@rushkoff), author; professor, media studies, CUNY Queens College

References: 

• Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires by Douglas Rushkoff (W.W. Norton; 2022)
• "Epson boobytrapped its printers" by Cory Doctorow (Medium; Aug. 7)
• "Cosmism: Russia's religion for the rocket age" by Benjamin Ramm (BBC; Apr. 20, 2021)
• The Selfish Gene (1976) and The God Delusion (2006) by Richard Dawkins
• Francis Bacon, Redargutio Philosophiarum (1608), tr. by Benjamin Farrington in The Philosophy of Francis Bacon (1964): "Nature must be taken by the forelock . . . lay hold of her and capture her" (p. 130).
• "Power changes how the brain responds to others" by Jeremy Hogeveen, et al., Journal of Experiential Psychology (Apr. 2014)
• What We Owe the Future by William MacAskill (Basic Books; 2022)
• Team Human by Douglas Rushkoff (W.W. Norton; 2021)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Nicole Hemmer, history professor and author of the new book Partisans. In it, she gives a reinterpretation of the Reagan presidency and what followed, and shows how the conservative political movement entangled with media figures and became what it is in the 1990s. They discuss the doomed but influential presidential campaigns of Pat Buchanan, the rise to dominance of conservative talk radio, and the enduring dangers of political violence.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Nicole Hemmer (@pastpunditry), author; professor, Vanderbilt University

References: 

• Partisans: The Conservative Revolutionaries Who Remade American Politics in the 1990s by Nicole Hemmer (Basic; 2022)
• "The Man Who Won the Republican Party Before Trump Did" by Nicole Hemmer (New York Times; Sept. 8)
• Talk Radio's America: How an Industry Took Over a Political Party That Took Over the United States by Brian Rosenwald (Harvard; 2019)
• On the Fairness Doctrine (First Amendment Center; MTSU)
• GOP Reagan Library Debate (CNN; Sept. 16, 2015)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Yuval Noah Harari, historian and bestselling author, about how humanity came to be the dominant species on earth, and what our future might hold. Sean and Yuval discuss mankind's imaginative "superpower," the threats to democracy across the globe, the future of artificial intelligence — and plenty more.

Yuval's new book Unstoppable Us adapts many of his macro-historical insights from Sapiens for younger readers, and is the first in a planned four-volume series.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Yuval Noah Harari (@harari_yuval), author; professor, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

References: 

• Unstoppable Us, Volume 1: How Humans Took Over the World by Yuval Noah Harari; illustrated by Ricard Zaplana Ruiz (Bright Matter; 2022)
• Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow by Yuval Noah Harari (Harper; 2017)
• Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari (Harper; 2015)
• "Nationalism vs. globalism: the new political divide | Yuval Noah Harari" (TED; YouTube)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with reporter Katie Engelhart, whose book The Inevitable is an up-close look at physician-assisted dying. This is the practice of receiving state-sanctioned medical aid to end one's life — a practice now legal in 10 U.S. states, Canada, and elsewhere around the world. They discuss the details of the procedure — including why people fight for this right and exercise it — as well as many of the moral and legal questions that it raises.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Katie Engelhart (@katieengelhart), journalist; author

References: 

• The Inevitable: Dispatches on the Right to Die by Katie Engelhart (St. Martin's; 2021)
• Brittany Maynard's legislative testimony

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd, Paul Robert Mounsey
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Jonathan Lear, a psychoanalyst and philosopher, about his new book Imagining the End: Mourning and Ethical Life. How can we continue to live a good life in a world beset by catastrophe, crisis, and chaos? Sean and Jonathan discuss the role of imagination and culture in the ways we make meaning in the world, the idea of mourning as a confrontation with our uniquely human ability to love, and how to turn away from the path of despair, towards hope — and to what Lear calls "committed living towards the future."

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jonathan Lear, author; professor, Committee on Social Thought & Dept. of Philosophy, University of Chicago

References: 

• Imagining the End: Mourning and Ethical Life by Jonathan Lear (Harvard; Nov. 15, 2022)
• Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
• Søren Kierkegaard, The Sickness unto Death (1849; published under the pseudonym Anti-Climacus)
• Sigmund Freud, Mourning and Melancholia (1917)
• "The Difficulty of Reality and the Difficulty of Philosophy" by Cora Diamond (2003)
• Radical Hope: Ethics in the Face of Cultural Devastation by Jonathan Lear (Harvard; 2008)
• "Envy and Gratitude" by Melanie Klein (1957; published in The Writings of Melanie Klein, Volume III, Hogarth Press; 1975)
• "A Lecture on Ethics" by Ludwig Wittgenstein (lecture notes from 1929-1930, published in The Philosophical Review v. 74 no. 1, 1965)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with historian and author Peniel Joseph about his new book The Third Reconstruction, which argues that the time we're currently living in can be understood as on a continuum with the civil rights era of the '50s and '60s. and the original American Reconstruction following the Civil War. Sean and Peniel discuss the Black Lives Matter movement, the Obama presidency — and important differences between the two — as well as the dangers of American exceptionalism and the importance of maintaining hope in the ongoing fight for racial justice.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Peniel Joseph (@PenielJoseph), author; founding director, Center for the Study of Race and Democracy, Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs, University of Texas at Austin

References: 

• The Third Reconstruction: America's Struggle for Racial Justice in the Twenty-First Century by Peniel E. Joseph (Basic; 2022)
• "DeSantis claims it was only the American Revolution that caused people to question slavery" by Graig Graziosi (The Independent; Sept. 23)
• Black Reconstruction in America by W.E.B. Du Bois (1935)
• "The Undoing of Reconstruction" by W. Archibald Dunning (The Atlantic; Oct. 1901)
• Barack Obama's Speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention (C-SPAN; YouTube)
• The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander (New Press; 2010, updated 2020)
• Shelby County v. Holder (570 US 529; 2013), in which the Supreme Court struck down Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965
• "Harming Our Common Future: America's Segregated Schools 65 Years after Brown" by Gary Orfield, et al. (Civil Rights Project; 2019)
• Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1 (551 US 701; 2007)
• "A North Carolina city begins to reckon with the massacre in its white supremacist past" by Scott Neuman (NPR; Nov. 10, 2021)
• How to Be an Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi (One World; 2019)
• White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo (Beacon; 2018)
• "Why I hope 2022 will be another 1866" by Manisha Sinha (CNN; Oct. 12)
• President Kennedy's Televised Address to the Nation on Civil Rights (June 11, 1963)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Reza Aslan, scholar of religions and author of multiple bestselling nonfiction works, to discuss the state of religion in America today. Sean and Reza discuss the relationship between politics and religion, why it can be hard to separate the emotional experiences of faith from the symbolic language of organized religion, and how new religious identities are being forged along principles of Christian nationalism.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Reza Aslan (@rezaaslan), author

References: 

• An American Martyr in Persia: The Epic Life and Tragic Death of Howard Baskerville by Reza Aslan (Norton; 2022)
• The Leftovers TV series (HBO; 2014–2017)
• "Can Religion & Reason Be Reconciled? | Reza Aslan & Sam Harris debate" (Jan. 25, 2007; C-SPAN YouTube)
• Pew Research Center Religious Landscape Study (Jan. 14, 2021)
• The 2020 Census of American Religion (PRRI; July 8, 2021)
• "'Pro-Life' Herschel Walker Paid for Girlfriend's Abortion" by Roger Sollenberger (The Daily Beast; Oct. 4)
• President George W. Bush's remarks on the morning of Sept. 12, 2001: "This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil. But good will prevail."

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with war reporter and New Yorker contributing writer Luke Mogelson about his new book The Storm Is Here. In it, Luke shares his on-the-ground reporting across America — from anti-lockdown protests in Lansing, Michigan, to the uprising in Minneapolis after the murder of George Floyd — to explain how the forces that animated the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th, 2021 came to gather strength. In this discussion, Sean and Luke talk about what happened, how it happened, and how Luke's experience at the Capitol on the 6th shaped his view of what's coming next.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Luke Mogelson, author; contributing writer, The New Yorker

References: 

• The Storm Is Here: An American Crucible by Luke Mogelson (Penguin; 2022)
• "A Reporter's Footage from Inside the Capitol Siege | The New Yorker" (YouTube; Jan. 17, 2021)
• "Michigan Sheriff Compares Lockdown Order He's Supposed to Enforce to Mass Arrest" by Tracy Connor (The Daily Beast; May 19, 2020)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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On this first episode of The Gray Area, Sean Illing talks with astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, who takes on many of our most vexing societal problems in his new book Starry Messenger. According to Neil, if we all were to adopt a more scientific approach to politics, many of our social problems would be easier to identify, talk about, and solve. In this conversation, Sean challenges that claim, and they discuss what the limits of both politics and science might be, as tools to use in crafting an improved society.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Neil deGrasse Tyson (@neiltyson), astrophysicist; author 

References: 

•  Starry Messenger: Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization by Neil deGrasse Tyson (Henry Holt; 2022)
• "Neil deGrasse Tyson lets the science deniers have it: 'The beginning of the end of an informed democracy'" by Sean Illing (Salon; Oct. 20, 2015)

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Resist certainty, embrace ambiguity. The Gray Area is a philosophical take on culture, politics, and everything in between with host Sean Illing. We don’t pretend to have the answers, but we do offer a space for real dialogue. Get some cool takes on a very hot world. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday.

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In this episode originally recorded in July 2021, Vox's Zack Beauchamp talks with Columbia law professor Jamal Greene about his book How Rights Went Wrong: Why Our Obsession With Rights Is Tearing America Apart. They discuss how the US obsession with rights and their protections gives too much power to judges and the courts, makes it difficult for ordinary citizens to find reasonable solutions to legitimate problems, and has made this country's legal system not only nonsensical but dangerous.

Vox Conversations will return on Thursday, Oct. 13th — but under a new name, and with a new look. Stay tuned for The Gray Area with Sean Illing: a philosophical take on culture, politics, and everything in between.

Host: Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp), Senior Correspondent, Vox

Guest: Jamal Greene (@jamalgreene), Dwight Professor of Law, Columbia Law School

References: 

• How Rights Went Wrong: Why Our Obsession With Rights Is Tearing America Apart by Jamal Greene (HMH Books; 2021)
• "From Guns to Gay Marriage, How Did Rights Take Over Politics?" by Kelefa Sanneh (New Yorker; May 24, 2021)
• Lochner v. New York, 198 US 45 (1905)
• Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, 584 US __ (2018)
• District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 US 570 (2008)
• "Texas's radical anti-abortion law, explained" by Ian Millhiser (Vox; Sept. 2, 2021)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with former Republican strategist Tim Miller about his new book Why We Did It, which offers an inside look at Donald Trump's total capture of the Republican Party. Now a staff writer at The Bulwark, Miller shares detailed conversations he had with other party operators — who he criticizes as power- and fame-hungry enablers. He pulls back the curtain on a DC culture of identity and status, talks about the media's role in this transformation, and opens up honestly about the ways in which he and others like him are culpable.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Tim Miller (@Timodc), author; writer, The Bulwark

References: 

• Why We Did It: A Travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell by Tim Miller (Harper; 2022)
• "Unlocking the Conservative Closet" by Kerry Eleveld (The Advocate; Oct. 12, 2010)
• Losers: The Road to Everyplace but the White House by Michael Lewis (Vintage; 1998)
• "Elise Stefanik said she was one of the 'most bipartisan' members of Congress. Then she went all-in on Trump's false election claims" by Michael Kranish (Washington Post; May 12, 2021)
• "The Republican Triangle of Doom" by Sarah Longwell (The Bulwark; Sept. 27, 2021)
• "Breakfast with J.D. Vance, Anti-Trump Author Turned Pro-Trump Candidate" by Molly Ball (Time; July 7, 2021)
• "Social decay: what the conversation about Trump and the white working class misses" by Sean Illing (Vox; Nov. 1, 2016)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Vox’s Marin Cogan talks with Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg about her new book On Repentance And Repair, which is about how to make amends in the modern world. They talk about the difference between repentance and forgiveness, why making amends is so important, and how a "five step plan" for repairing harm drawn from the Jewish tradition can serve as a guide even for navigating repair in modern, complex issues. And, merely apologizing . . . is not enough.

Host: Marin Cogan (@marincogan), Senior Features Correspondent, Vox

Guest: Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg (@TheRaDR), rabbi; author; scholar-in-residence, National Council of Jewish Women

References: 

• On Repentance And Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World by Danya Ruttenberg (Beacon Press; 2022)
• The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1937)
• New Testament; Matthew 18:15–35
• "Most harassment apologies are just damage control. Dan Harmon's was a self-reckoning" by Caroline Framke (Vox; Jan. 12, 2018)
• The Mishneh Torah of Maimonides (c. 1170–1180 CE); the laws of teshuvah
• Sacred Spaces

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Carrie Jenkins about her new book Sad Love, and her call to rethink the shape and boundaries of romantic love. In this far-ranging discussion about the meaning of romantic love, Sean and Carrie discuss the connection between love and happiness, what we should expect (and not expect) from our romantic partners, and whether or not loving a person must entail that we love only that person.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Carrie Jenkins (@carriejenkins), writer; professor of philosophy, University of British Columbia

References: 

• Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning by Carrie Jenkins (Polity; 2022)
• "A philosopher makes the case for polyamory" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 16, 2018)
• What Love Is: And What It Could Be by Carrie Jenkins (Basic; 2017)
• Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre (1949)
• Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (see Book I, or Book X.6-8 for robust discussion of eudaimonia)
• Marina Adshade, economist
• Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl (1946; tr. Ilse Lasch)

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This episode was made by: 

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• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Into It is a new podcast from Vulture and New York Magazine hosted by Sam Sanders. Each week, Sam and his Vulture colleagues break down the pop culture they can't stop thinking about and help us all obsess . . . better.

In this segment, Sam talks to New York Times columnist Tressie McMillan Cottom about the popular TV show Yellowstone and how it reflects our own identity politics.

New episodes of Into It drop every Thursday.

Listen on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/intoit

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6YRlgok1wcnIqhrQgH1Tjt?si=46df5a54f7934e17

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Vox’s Emily St. James talks with the celebrated author and trans activist Julia Serano about her new book, Sexed Up. They talk about what "sexualization" really means, and why sexualizing behaviors are so pervasive and widespread throughout society. They also discuss why we're so prone to classify and categorize people, how patterns of what Julia calls "enforced ignorance" are communicated to children, and how we might build a society with a healthier sexual ethic — one that better protects marginalized people.

Host: Emily St. James (@emilyvdw), Senior Correspondent, Vox

Guest: Julia Serano (@JuliaSerano), writer, musician, activist

References: 

• Sexed Up: How Society Sexualizes Us, and How We Can Fight Back by Julia Serano (Seal Press; 2022)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Nate Hilger, economist, data scientist, and author of the new book The Parent Trap: How to Stop Overloading Parents and Fix Our Inequality Crisis. The book explores what is expected of parents, and how a larger public investment in families and children beyond K-12 education could address inequality in America. Sean and Nate discuss parenting, the difference between caring and skill building, the pressure on parents to do it all, and the economic consequences that arise when they can’t. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Nate Hilger (@nate_g_hilger), economist and author

References: 

• The Parent Trap: How To Stop Overloading Parents and Fix Our Inequality Crisis by Nate Hilger (MIT Press; 2022)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What good are piecemeal reparations? From Georgetown University, where school leadership once sold enslaved people, to Evanston, Illinois, where redlining kept Black residents out of homeownership, institutions and local governments are attempting to take reparations into their own hands. But do these small-scale efforts detract from the broader call for reparations from the federal government?

Fabiola talks with Indigenous philanthropist Edgar Villanueva, founder of the Decolonizing Wealth Project and creator of the Case for Reparations fund, about the reparatory justice efforts underway across the country and the role that individual donors might be able to play in reparations. Fabiola also speaks with activist Kavon Ward, who worked to restore Bruce’s Beach, waterfront land in California, to the descendants of Black families who were pushed off the land by eminent domain. (Ward’s work was funded by Villanueva’s organization.) They discuss how jurisdictions are repaying Black people for what was taken from them — and if that repayment can be considered reparations at all.

This series was made possible with support from the Canopy Collective and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. To provide feedback, please take our survey here: https://forms.gle/w9vYsfFGvdJLJ3LY9

Host: Fabiola Cineas, race and policy reporter, Vox

Guest: Kavon Ward, founder, Where Is My Land; Edgar Villanueva, founder, Decolonizing Wealth Project

References: 

Decolonizing Wealth, Second Edition: Indigenous Wisdom to Heal Divides and Restore Balance by Edgar Villanueva (Penguin Random House, 2021)

How a California beachfront property now worth millions was taken from its Black owners (CBS, May 2021)

Governor Newsom Signs SB 796, Authorizing the Return of Bruce’s Beach (California state Sen. Steven Bradford, September 2021)   

How Black activist Kavon Ward found her calling in the fight for Bruce’s Beach (Orange County Register)

272 Slaves Were Sold to Save Georgetown. What Does It Owe Their Descendants? (The New York Times, April 2016)

In Likely First, Chicago Suburb Of Evanston Approves Reparations For Black Residents (NPR, 2021)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jonquilyn Hill 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why slavery? Marxist scholar Adolph Reed argues that Jim Crow — not enslavement — is the defining experience for Black Americans today. Reed recounts his childhood in the segregation-era South in his book The South: Jim Crow and Its Afterlives. Fabiola speaks with Reed about his experience, his argument that reparations aren’t necessarily a healing balm, and what policies and resources are needed to create a more equitable society.

This series was made possible with support from the Canopy Collective and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. To provide feedback, please take our survey here: https://forms.gle/w9vYsfFGvdJLJ3LY9

Host: Fabiola Cineas, race and policy reporter, Vox

Guest: Adolph L. Reed Jr., author of The South: Jim Crow and Its Afterlives

References: 

The South: Jim Crow and Its Afterlives by Adolph L. Reed Jr. (Verso, 2022)

The Marxist Who Antagonizes Liberals and Left (New Yorker)

Black Americans’ views of reparations for slavery (Pew Research)

Library Visit, Then Held at Gunpoint (New York Times, 2015)

The Racial Wealth Gap Is About the Upper Classes (People’s Policy Project, 2020)

Income Inequality and the Persistence of Racial Economic Disparities (Robert Manduca, 2018)