Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.
Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.
If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.
I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.
please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy
Nice to see you back also from me, and tks muchly for the edits on the Corleck and Corraghy heads. I'm amused that the talk on the Brighton hotel bombing infobox is essentially between an Irish, Scots and an English man. And so ironic that we all hate infoboxes! Maybe we should we should walk into a bar sometime. Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ceoil. I'm camping in Germany with the family and it's pissing with rain. It's a pleasure to see you. I'm always up for a drink or a chat with anyone, even those I disagree with. I'm glad the feet thing got sorted out, that was a bit embarrassing. Take care of yourself, John (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re feet: there are reasons why skilled writers/copy editors are so highly valued in the project. Hens teeth; like drummers for indie bands. Ceoil (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was very thoughtful of you. The weather seems to have broken now. Ceoil, belated thanks for your compliment. Between feet and potatoes, I'm remembering how truly toxic some of the editing environments here can be. Fortunately I am relatively indifferent to insults, but you can see how some people are driven away. Ah well. It's a beautiful day and I'm off to Trier for the day before turning homewards. Look after yourselves. John (talk) 08:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for standing on your feet. Enjoy the day in Trier! Remembering Bach (see my talk), - I had a cantata article to GA yesterday, BWV 178. The one for today, BWV 94, needs improvement, but I'll enjoy Bensheim. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good to hear, and that's an interesting article. Back home and exhausted. It was fun, but I am getting old for long road trips... Let me know if there are any copyediting or reviewing tasks you need done, but I need a day or two to recuperate. John (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome home! Recuperate! Still the same article, in case of interest after recuperation. It's on the Main page, still. On the talk are some open tasks, and the names of the two who helped the most so far. It's great collaboration, and I love it. A breakthrew came today with the opening of the New York Times article. - Listen into the interview at the bottom = meet the person even if you don't understand all the German ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have now two articles open for review, FAC for Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist, and GAN for a Bach cantata = my story today, - recommended listening, #4 for fury and surprise, #6 for exquisite lament; the music turns 300 years today per liturgy but on 13 August per calendar. Ceoil, thanks for being already at the FAC, and you will want to listen to the Bach, too! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you John. Today I have two "musicians" on the Main page, one is also the topic of my story, watch and listen, - I like today's especially because you see him at work, hear him talk about his work and the result of his work - rare! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On 13 August, Bach's cantata was 300 years old, and the image one. The cantata is an extraordinary piece, using the chorale's text and famous melody more than others in the cycle, - perhaps listen if you haven't when I mentioned it (with a 2011 DYK hook) 9 days ago. It's nice to have not only a recent death, but also this "birthday" on the Main page. And a rainbow in my places. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are so productive. All I can manage these days is shuffling the odd semicolon. Thanks for sharing and for being such a hard-working editor. John (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm reaping now what I sowed in 2010/2011 when week by week - the speed Bach took - I looked at a cantata. Many of them had no article, and those that had one consisted of little insight, the complete text (!) in German (!) and a list of recordings linking every soloist and repeating "soprano", "alto", "tenor", "bass" (which is always the same) for every recording (!), which was easy because the source had it that way, and one copy did it all. (example pictured) We came a long way since. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
today's story is about education, 10 years OTD after lecturing our founder). Music for today's feast is Monteverdi's, the best concert we ever did (so pictured again on my talk), but it wasn't recorded, substituted with a "Pacific" one that comes with subtitles line by line in Latin and English: I learned something! - The latest "placed" must have been on one of the rainy days you experienced in Germany, pics taken the few minutes it didn't rain. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
John, while you are around I would gratefully ask you to look at Troika (1969 film), a recently failed FAC on a strange and unusual film that badly needs a skilled and astute copy editor. It's out of print, and I see it in punk rock terms; more Wire than Sex Pistols. As said many times before, skilled writers are hen teeth here. Ceoil (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it goes towards PR shortly, I hope you will do your worst; as said before am a big fan of clarity, demanding as little words as possible. I look forward to engaging if you have time and best. Ceoil (talk) 00:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am really impressed by your edits, thanks so much John :) And please (!) stick with the page as it goes through the various process. Will reply to the talk query soon. Ceoil (talk) 13:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for such a full and solid run through the film article. You did more in a day than I could do in a year :) Ceoil (talk) 03:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And thanks Ceoil for the praise here. Re intermittency; I was here pretty much every day from 2006 to 2019 when my dad died. It was as awful as I knew it would be; he was like a brother or a soulmate to me, it's hard to explain. In the context of my mental state at the time, I got over-frustrated by the dumb groupthink that sometimes operates in a project like this. I recognised that I was not enjoying it, and took some time out to take care of myself and my family, then looked in a couple of years ago, but it was too soon. I never stopped reading Wikipedia and in the end I missed editing too much, and I've decided to come back again. I intend to be back for a while, though I'll see how it goes obviously. But I think I am well and strong enough to contribute regularly again. I agree with you that I'm a strong copyeditor and I think I'm also a gnome and a decent reviewer. Sorry this is so long, but I want to reiterate what a pleasure the VvG process was for me. The memory of that is part of what has brought me back. To more collegial and amicable editing in the future a chara! John (talk) 01:50, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by your start date here and similar taste in music, I guess we are around the same age, and going through that stage in life where we unfortunately have similar losses. I have one of those big families that make parental loss easier to cope with, just about, but do hear your pain...have two other close brothers, but my better half is an only child of only child families, and she is going through a very hard time in the last 18 months as both dies within months just after covid. Its a very difficult and at times dark stage of life, and thank you for sharing.
Re your return here, I hope you feel appreciated; you (a) are not shy of giving your opinion and (b) roll up your sleeves when your interest is peaked. Without wanting to be fanciful, as a content rather than a polish person, I do learn a lot from you and your kind is a dying breed here...often I let things slide on reviews (especially songs and films artciles) only for the next nom to say...but that FAC passed what cant I? Ceoil (talk) 00:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS, re Vincent, the satisfaction in article building only comes from collaborations and relationships; we all have our strengths and then they cometogether are more than the parts. The extent that you step up there was ...trilling. Ceoil (talk) 00:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for that. I change and grow slowly but I am what I am. I was born a few weeks before the death of Winston Churchill, so I was lucky enough to see the Clash, Damned, Stiff Little Fingers etc when they were hot and fresh. It was a good time to be alive. I recently reclaimed my record collection from storage after 17 years. My daughter had never seen such a thing nor imagined it. Growing older has many dark sides but it can bring acceptance and wisdom, sometimes. Take care of yourself and keep sending me editing ideas. It's always a pleasure. John (talk) 00:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting...so I'm about 10 years younger so; my early gigs were My Bloody Valentine, Pixies and that sort of thing, and early Acid House from about 1989 on. Funnily enough discovered during the week that my American wife was a fan of Stiff Little Fingers when a teenager; "Alternative Ulster" and "Suspect Device" now on heavy rotation in our household and car. We are both significantly into the Undertones of course. Ceoil (talk) 21:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re editing ideas, and I hope I'm not overextending your favour here, but am slowly working up Tomb effigy as a next "broad" FAC, though think I'm a bout a year from taking it to PR...its a huge topic covering 1000s of years with an extensive literature. Its at 4184 words currently; aiming to cap it at 8000. It does badly need to be copyedited though. Ceoil (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be happy to take a look tomorrow. SLF were my first gig in 1980. Undertones yeah but I preferred That Petrol Emotion. I was in my mid-20s for the SoL and TPE enriched it greatly. Stuff like "Hey Venus", "Groove Check" really did it for me. John (talk) 23:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re SLF IN 1980, wow. Without wanting to nerd out too much, the recored versions never captured the raw anger of the live versions[2]. In total contrast, I like some of the English prod, punk views, eg The Exploited's "Army Life", though it is obviously far less nuanced or informed. The line "Went the Belfast where there is fucking fun, walking about with a tommy gun" is haunting in its ignorance and obedience, but they overall reflect a working class and anti-Thatcherite world-view I can get behind. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We always believed "Hey Venus" was about Thatcher, perhaps because of this remix. The Exploited were always too Oi for me; I met them once and wasn't impressed. I got a great impression of the Clash and the Damned from meeting them, also Siouxsie and the Banshees. John McGeoch was a particularly nice guy. John (talk) 09:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Am impressed. Living in a backwater, never got to interact with a first wave punk icon, so mad jealous. Closest I got was bickering with Bernie Rhodes here[3] and elsewhere, which was sort of fun; he is very sharp and articulate, alas we were talking about Cut the Crap so it was a bit sensitive. Ceoil (talk) 04:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bassists are usually pretty chill and down to earth. It's (male) singers and lead guitarists you need to watch out for. Drama! My only real interaction with an NME level singer was with Stuart Staples back in 1994 and 1996, when he played in a Cork venue a few times I was associated with, and we met him again when they were playing in Stockholm. A disarmingly genuine and charming man who in those days like a whiskey or two. Ceoil (talk) 20:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for barging uninvited onto your talk page. Please let me know what you think the best course of action is for the following issues arising from the Brighton hotel bombing FAC. It is quite impressive how FAC coordinators do not consider the following statement a provocation or intent to edit war: "I do not think links should be added and I will remove them if you add them". Also, as you said, nobody owns a page on here. FAC criteria warns against edit wars, at the very least this is un encyclopedic behavior and at least deserves a tap on the back. By now, if any other editor had made such a comment at an FAC nom with so many reviewers, the nom would have been archived immediately and there would have been a warning on our talk pages. Do you think this should go to ANI, since coords are either ignoring or allowing this behavior? And what would be the consequences of that for the nom? If I were petty I would have added links and checked if SchroCat would have the gall to do an edit war; that would have bogged the article in the dispute resolution stages for 3-6 months and disqualified it from FAC for that period. But fortunately I am not petty and would not want what is overall a good article to suffer such a fate for an issue which is comparatively not so big. What do you think? Matarisvan (talk) 18:02, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No apology necessary. I'm not sure; I've written on my user page about it. When we see others behaving badly, rudely or in an arrogant or entitled way, sometimes it helps to just walk away and do something else. User:Schrocat gets away with a lot because he is a very talented writer and reviewer. Try to see the good in him, however difficult it may be sometimes. As far as process goes, this is not something ANI would take an interest in, and there could even be a WP:BOOMERANG effect. One has to trust the coordinators not to promote an article with unaddressed actionable points. To the degree that the process works, it has credibility. Like a lot of things on this project, the whole FA process is amazingly good compared to nothing at all, but highly imperfect compared to a peer-review process one might see in a professional context. Sobeit. Remember this the next time you hear someone pissing on about civility though. Take care, and try not to let it ruin your evening. John (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Today's story has 3 composers, I couldn't decide for the one on the Main page or the one who didn't make it on his bicentenary, so took both, and the pic has a third. Listen if you have a bit of time. The music, played by the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra in Germany in April 2022, impressed me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Berezovsky piece in bright C major, sounding pretty much like early Mozart, came as a surprise opening a concert by a Ukrainian orchestra on tour to major halls in Poland and Germany, organised to make a statement of culture in response to aggression. The final piece of the program was highly appropriate. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bach was amazing, the Einstein of music. And what a horrible end he came to. Thanks for all your hard work. FA is as good as it gets here, and it isn't always very good. Viel Gluck! John (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! - It will be a long-term project, 3rd in line the soonest, but among Bach's works some pinnacle I just discovered. DYK was refused because it appeared on OTD, - teh rulez. What do you think of another DYK on its way to be refused (the hook this time) or not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today is Schoenberg's 150th birthday! On display, portrayed by Egon Schiele, with music from Moses und Aron, and with two DYK hooks, one from 2010 and another from 2014; the latter, about his 40th birthday, appeared on his 140th birthday, which made me happy then and now again. - See places for a stunning sunrise, on the day Bruckner's 200th birthday was celebrated (just a few days late). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That brought back memories. I was in Germany for the first time in November 1990 just after unification. Interesting article. Thank you. John (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was just in Trier a couple of months ago. Beautiful city, but I'd forgotten that supermarkets close on a Sunday in Germany. Had to stock up on German beer and wine in Luxembourg instead... John (talk) 20:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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A tag has been placed on Steuart Campbell requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steuart Campbell. When a page has substantially identical content to that of a page deleted after a discussion, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.
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Thanks for your two notices here. I have posted at article talk. I suggest an AfD would be the way forward rather than speedy or ProD. John (talk) 15:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Troika passed FAC on 2nd nom earlier, in no small part because of your extensive copyedits. Here is a live version of a tune I'm sure you already know in thanks[5], and sound once again. Ceoil (talk) 04:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for improving articles on October, - I noticed that particular "hack" with pleasure! - My story today is a cantata 300 years old, based on a hymn 200 years old when the cantata was composed, based on a psalm some thousand years old, - so said the 2015 DYK hook. I had forgotten the discussion on the talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
new pics close to home, and a new song - come some day! - I never had a TFA moved (have too few), but am quite conservative in move cases. A DYK article was once moved (while on the Main page) without leaving a redirect, which I thought was crazy, and - not on the main page - a composer's article became a dab page because some singer had adapted his name as a stage name, and now the original was no longer the primary topic, which I found kafkaesque. Nobody died, - you are right. Dealing with three articles of people who died three days in a row again, first Barbara Kolb. What do you think about Kaoli Isshiki. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taxonomy is always reductive by its nature and naming articles is worth getting right fairly early on in an article's evolution. I read the AfD discussion and had a quick look at sources without finding anything great. It looks like a borderline case and nowadays I'm an inclusionist, so I would weakly keep it. John (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. - I came because I saw your comment on the TFA: feel free to boldly make the changes, - the principal editor hasn't edited for the last two years, and I see nobody with more authority in these matters than you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About the weak keep: could you say it there? (I haven't read the last comment yet that I saw on my watchlist, - I have an article to write.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hah. There's no shortage of bad writing on Wikipedia. Chipping away at it one page at a time for a third of my life now, on and off. How are you keeping, old friend? John (talk) 21:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reading way too many obituaries, and writing too few articles. I crossed the 400,000 edits barrier but I'm wondering what the point is--yep, it's clear, I need to be writing, not blocking and deleting and whatnot. Good to see you: I'm glad you are still here! Drmies (talk) 22:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I ducked out for a few years, burned out and beset by bereavement. I came back to find the place much as I left it. All the same problems with dodgy promotions, vested contributors, lousy peer reviews, and dreadful writing. I've only survived by greatly lowering my expectations. Maybe that's a facet of wisdom coming with age, maybe not. I wish you well, and I hope you will think of me if you have any article improvement suggestions. Take care, John (talk) 18:16, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings John,
I just wanna thank you for your copy edits to help Troika pass Featured Status. I have been meaning to ask you about how I can master Copy editing. I am aware a lot of that is flow and condensing what is written in articles, however some of these articles that show me how to do so seem to go over my head. I am currently working on some massive projects (The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, Begotten, Stephen D. Richards, etc.) and am having trouble figuring out how to properly condense without complete removal of material. If you are willing to mentor me on this I would appreciate it. If not, some pointers. Happy editing mate! Paleface Jack (talk) 17:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, that's a flattering suggestion! Let me think about it. I'm away in the wilds just now on holiday with family but when I get back I can have a look at some of those articles. Thanks for thinking of me. John (talk) 17:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! Your copy edits are spot on and I plan to work my way to being as good as that some time, might as well ask one of the best for mentoring/advice etc. Be warned, the Texas Chain Saw is quite messy as I am still pulling everything together and adding things. It is one of my most ambitious articles as there is a vast amount of information to process and filter.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Butting in the spirit of learning to walk before you can crawl, Begotten should be PFJ's next nom as it is relatively short with a limited body of sources, while Texas Chain Saw is a beast, widely written about and known to all. Would like to see PFJ more experienced in the FAC process before he undertakes such a massive cultural milestone, and with more eyes having reviewed at GA/PR before he gets in final copy editors. John, you are a scarce resource; thinking of your time allocation :) Ceoil (talk) 23:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the presumption Paleface; just don't want you to be disappointed/frustrated if you reach too soon re TCS. Best. Ceoil (talk) 23:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil: No worries mate. I was thinking that or something even smaller like Lake Michigan Monster as that one has the same number of sources as Troika. Working my way up to articles over 100 citations is something I want to gradually do. In terms of Begotten I have been having troubles filtering down essentials on the Themes/Analysis to rewrite it, as sources are often frustratingly vague on specifics on what motifs and themes pertaining to the religious/occult aspects of the film. That will be my 3rd project to work on though I do want to focus on honing and perfecting my ability to copy edit as that is a weakness of mine that I require fine-tuneing.--Paleface Jack (talk) 03:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@John: Just a little update, I have chosen to work on a smaller article for FA instead of TCM and Begotten for now. The article in question is called Lake Michigan Monster, and I have been going over copy editing it with Ceoil for the better part of a month. If you are still busy, thats ok. My only real concern with the article is prose being as perfect as possible through multiple vetting through different users. Yout assistance was, and is always valued in your contributions to Troika. Good luck on your continued endeavers.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@John: Thanks, the more I looked at it, the more I felt it was a good pick me up for all the current things going on in the world. Readers might find it interesting enough--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Martinevans123 Funny. Had to transfer all that and effects stuff into a future article to cut down on everything. Cutting things apart and stitching things together in my own work of art is fun but a welcome challenge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paleface Jack (talk • contribs)
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Just want to thank you for your copy edits on Lake Michigan Monster, I don't know if you are done with it or not, or if you feel it is complete enough. At the moment I am working on bringing up anther article I put off int the GA status club. I don't know who else could take a look at Lake Michigan Monster to make sure the nomination goes smoothly. Any suggestions? Paleface Jack (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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