|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Over at opensource.com, Greg DeKoenigsberg looks at a blog posting from Mark Guzdial, chairman of the ACM education board. Guzdial argues that commercial software development is somehow better for students, with some rather poor arguments that DeKoenigsberg deconstructs: "First, let's talk about breadth of opportunity. Mark seems to assume that every student developer has the opportunity to engage in commercial development. This is demonstrably untrue. It may be true that an elite school like Georgia Tech provides these kinds of opportunities to most of their [computing] students — but what about everywhere else? For that matter, what about the kids at Georgia Tech who, for whatever reason, don't make the cut?"

to post comments

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 2:02 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (24 responses)

Mark Guzdial does have at least one good point; prominent open source projects are in many ways less diverse than proprietary software development. I think that the largest factor is the very public nature of free software development: you put your code out there for all to see, and for all to mock, and the dominant culture is in no way diplomatic.

Now, I personally rather enjoy it that I've been publicly insulted by Linus Torvalds (in several of the many gcc vs kernel flamefests), kind of taking it as a badge of honor. But this isn't an easy barrier for people from a shame culture to cross, and it's also very hard for many women to deal with, so the result is that there are a lot more women and a lot more Asians in proprietary software development.

Just the same, even for people who don't feel that they can participate, the fact that real commercial-grade software in source form is available to students to study is a huge benefit even to those who will never contribute to free software.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 3:06 UTC (Wed) by smadu2 (subscriber, #54943) [Link] (5 responses)

FTA "Open source is overwhelmingly White or *Asian* and male".

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 6:58 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (4 responses)

Actually Asians are way underrepresented in FLOSS, compared to their overwhelming numbers in proprietary software development.

And that is GOOD thing

Posted Feb 19, 2010 0:17 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

I have nothing against asians and women. I *DO* have a bone with all this "shame culture" crap.

The only way to write good code in most cases is to rewrite it two or three times. Everyone makes mistakes - especially if the new stuff is developed. But if you can't ridicule current design and offer better one then this refining process just takes forever.

Proprietary companies may not care for the qualify of code - if it's crap but sells well then everything is Ok. Sometimes FOSS developers don't care either (when we are talking about something niche so you have a choice of crap software or no software at all). But if they do care (and kernel developers certainly care) then it's much better to punish potential contributors rather then potential end-users who'll be experiencing fallout from badly written code born out of politcorrectness.

And that is GOOD thing

Posted Feb 19, 2010 12:35 UTC (Fri) by efexis (guest, #26355) [Link] (2 responses)

Yes but there's a big difference between ridiculing an idea or design and ridiculing the person behind the idea or design, and that line does get awful blurry sometimes! Open Source also equals Open Ego, and when smart egos clash the results can be... let's say 'creative' hehe. People seem to really struggle, on both sides (ridiculer and ridiculee), to not make or take it personally when it shouldn't be or wasn't intended to be.

Is it good thing to scare them off? I'm really rather comfortable with the idea that I make mistakes, and I code within that context, ie, a portion of the code I output is for bug tolerance 'n to catch my mistakes. People who have a hard time accepting that they make mistakes and instead take it as a personal sign of failure ("I err therefore I am loser") ... they don't seem to so much. But my experience with other programmers is limited (programmers are weirdos, except me), so that may be a premature generalisation.

Yes, but what to do with such a person?

Posted Feb 24, 2010 17:33 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

People who have a hard time accepting that they make mistakes and instead take it as a personal sign of failure ("I err therefore I am loser") ... they don't seem to so much.

There are no perfect programmers. Everyone does mistakes and if the person is brilliant programmer then such attitude is even worse: by the time he'll screw up big time he'll be to important to just push him away. And that what? You can't criticize his creations because he'll take it as sign of failure, you can easily remove from project... Thus it's better for the project to weed such persons early... even if it reduces the pool of developers.

Of course if the project really struggling to find someone, anyone to do the work... then it's different matter. But if you have a choice...

Yes, but what to do with such a person?

Posted Feb 24, 2010 22:44 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Given the number of bugs in their own code that any programmer would have
encountered after the years of work needed to become expert, I'd say that
any programmer unwilling to accept criticism is not brilliant, but
overconfident and ripe for a fall. Best to ensure that said person does
not fall on top of you.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 11:07 UTC (Wed) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] (6 responses)

Really Torvalds mostly flames top level dudes or people who go out of their way to annoy him. He doesn't go around flaming random newbies.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 20:44 UTC (Wed) by Tobu (subscriber, #24111) [Link] (5 responses)

He may not (I don't follow lkml), but if he flames anybody he sets a bad tone for the mailing list. Too many people behave rudely on the vger lists, and their contributions can't balance the detrimental effect to the community.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 22:32 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (3 responses)

I love the ex cathedra style of our new community-minded overlords. No stooping down to "I'm uncomfortable with..." or "I hate it when he..." for them - "can't balance the detrimental effect to the community" sounds far better. And nicely shifts the statement from "personal feelings of author" to "revealed truth, not to be argued with" category, without having to offer a shred of argument in support of the statement in question. Bravo, maestro. Implicit promotion of yourself to He Who Measures The Balance(tm) is also very nicely done. What can we do in face of such a Themis incarnate but bow our heads and submit to the judgement graciously given unto the unworthy lowly contributors? You, sir, shall go far. Preferably - very far.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 23:12 UTC (Wed) by Tobu (subscriber, #24111) [Link] (1 responses)

This was indeed prompted by personal experience, though I haven't been discouraged yet. I wanted to make a general point, which you aren't particularly addressing: driving the non-flameproof people out isn't good. I acknowledge most people don't do that, I'm just pissed off at those who do.

YMMV

Posted Feb 19, 2010 0:25 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I wanted to make a general point, which you aren't particularly addressing: driving the non-flameproof people out isn't good.

Well, that depends on the details of particular project to large degree. When you are driving non-flameproof people away you are usually increasing quality of code but also reduce number of volunteers capable of doing work. OpenBSD is great example of both trends.

This means that there are exist optimal heat of flames on mailing list - and this temperature changes from project to project. What is acceptable and desirable on LKML will be totally unacceptable on mailing list for some cooking program.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 11:58 UTC (Thu) by PaXTeam (guest, #24616) [Link]

> I love the ex cathedra style [...]
> [...]without having to offer a shred of argument in support of the statement in question

are you pot or kettle today? ;)

The dog-eat-dog world of the mailing list

Posted Feb 18, 2010 15:15 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

One problem is that the "big dogs" in a community often set the behavioural standards that others seek to copy, especially if those others don't have anything positive to contribute themselves. So if a leader in a community flames people, even if the root of the flame is to justifiably criticise something, the less proficient people (the "fanboys" being an extreme case) think that by acting like their role models, they will ultimately converge on the same level of success and expertise that those role models currently enjoy.

Now, to an extent, one can understand outsiders in a project being abrasive, although rudeness shouldn't be accepted from any party: if people perceive that they've encountered resistance to what they regard as genuinely worthy ideas, they are likely to be frustrated. What is intolerable, however, is when someone in a position of power or control sees the need to offend others who are merely trying to contribute. It doesn't matter if some newcomer's or outsider's patch or suggestion is flawed, community leaders don't need to insult people to defend their position: they can simply refuse to incorporate such work and maintain the levels of power and control that they already enjoy.

When people in positions of strength ridicule or shame others (despite attempts to justify such behaviour through notions of moral and cultural relativism), the effect is frequently known as "bullying".

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 22:56 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (10 responses)

I don't see how the color of your skin affects how well or how badly a flame from Linus bothers
you.

It would be interesting to piece that one together. If anybody tries, please try to not be racist or
use stereotypes about people of minorities or people from non-western countries. We are trying
to run a politically correct internet here.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 23:24 UTC (Wed) by jmspeex (subscriber, #51639) [Link] (9 responses)

Basically, your cultural background affects how well or how badly a flame from Linus bothers you. It also turns out that there tends to be *some* correlation between the color of your skin and your cultural background. That being said, I don't see how trying to be a bit more polite *with everyone* would be a bad thing. Just things like s/you are an idiot/I think you are wrong here/ can help a lot.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 0:18 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (8 responses)

That being said, I don't see how trying to be a bit more polite *with everyone* would be a bad thing.

Well you just not thinking very deeply then. It's very obvious why it _can_ be a bad thing.

One of the good aspects of being negative is that you tend to weed out the people that have a low drive. There is no time in a top-teir kernel developer's professional life to spend time explaining things and coddling along invididuals. If a contributer can't take insults and drops out the first time it happens then it's very unlikely that they have what it takes to actually put forth the time and work that contributing large patches requires.

There is a huge difference on how somebody should behave in someplace like a educational setting versus working in a professional environment or towards strangers in a service-based environment. Personally I enjoy and feel most comfortable in a more informal setting were you don't have to feel like your walking on thin ice. The sort of 'informal' yet 'professional' environment is superior to a polite-based professional environment in many ways. It tends to makes life much easier and communication much more efficient. After all.. friends are people you can vent your anger on. You can't vent your anger on your enemies since they will combat you and you can't vent your anger on strangers since that is impolite.. but friends are people you can fight with and still be friendly afterwards.

Also if you were from a shame-based background you'd understand the motivation that shaming can bring and the desire to bring honor to your group. Also you'd understand that insults are, more often then not, actually praises. Insults are very often attempts to make sure that you do not get arrogant in the face of your successes. People from typical 'european'-style guilt-based cultures often have a very difficult time with that concept. :) Also one of the nice things about kernel development lists is that you do not need to use your real name or real identity. In shame-based cultures as long as the shame can't be traced back to you then it is not shame. It's us westeners that are more likely to crumble and internalize insults as guilt thus lowering our sense of self worth even if we are using a alias.

Of course, Linus can take things too far (as many people do), but unfortunately we are just victims of our own personality deficiencies and a intellegent person should be able to look past the faults and weaknesses of others. Sometimes it's just best to ignore people when they are being morons or abusive.

Just things like s/you are an idiot/I think you are wrong here/ can help a lot.

What if you _are_ being a idiot though? Not, you, right now. But if we are being stupid often the only way we can stop is when other people point it out. I know I am dumb as shit sometimes. It's very helpful when people call me on it (most of the time).

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 8:51 UTC (Thu) by tdz (subscriber, #58733) [Link] (2 responses)

> If a contributer can't take insults and drops out the first time it happens then it's very unlikely that they have what it takes to actually put forth the time and work that contributing large patches requires.

This conclusion is nonsense.

> [...] Also you'd understand that insults are, more often then not, actually praises. Insults are very often attempts to make sure that you do not get arrogant in the face of your successes. [...]

For the rest of your comment (and some of others) I was amazed by the reasons that people come up with for being rude. But honestly, there is no excuse for impoliteness. I guess, the only reason why it doesn't matter much on LKML is the fact that there are enough people willing to contribute.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 12:03 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (guest, #307) [Link] (1 responses)

Speaking as someone who has a low capacity for commiting impolitenesses
(access my comments page here on lwn or on /. or anywhere else), I still
think drag is right. Sometimes, the only objective way of going forward with
a job is pointing out bluntly that something is braindamaged and should be
changed ASAP.

Besides, people do frequently forget that one cannot expect things from
others. You cannot expect honesty, politeness, respect, and good things from
other hu-mans. It's the road to Sorrow County, including Disappointment and
Despair Townships. And Free Software endeavors are like Soylent Green, and
People go sour most of the time. So, if one can't take the heat, one has no
business in the kitchen.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 15:01 UTC (Thu) by jmspeex (subscriber, #51639) [Link]

I'm not saying you should refrain from giving bad comments, it *how* you put things. "Hey, this piece of code sucks because XYZ" is still far more useful and less insulting than "you are a fucking moron".

being short with people

Posted Feb 18, 2010 15:32 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (3 responses)

> Just things like s/you are an idiot/I think you are wrong here/ can help a lot.

I'm not sure it's that simple. I'm studying. One teacher accepts questions from the class and we often waste time entertaining the way off-topic observations of students. Another teacher said from the start that he's not interested in our opinions - he'll take comments about flaws in his logic or requests for clarifications, but he cuts off people who're just sharing their related thoughts.

The second is abrupt, but I really appreciate that he saves me from having my time wasted.

So, on a list like lkml, do you really think polite replies will be as effective at ending time-wasting threads?

Even put in the nicest way: "Listen, you're idea's not bad, but I've spent a lot of time on this and I've tried similar and I'm convinced that your approach isn't as good as our current approach, or the benefit isn't sufficient to justify taking our time away from other aspects to work on it."

...there's a good chance the developer will reply with a justification. But if you tell them they're an idiot, they'll only reply if they really think they're right and that they can explain their case.

Yes, I see the downsides, I think everyone does, but I don't think the solution is as simple as "let's all be a little politer".

being short with people

Posted Feb 18, 2010 17:29 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (2 responses)

But if you tell them they're an idiot, they'll only reply if they really think they're right and that they can explain their case.

Yes, but a teacher (or community leader) has the final say on the matter, generally. They don't need to insult people to impose their authority on any matter or process - doing so is like telling the guy trying out for some sports team that he doesn't make the cut and then humiliating him anyway, even though the latter makes no difference to who will be on the team and who won't be.

Although I have reservations about the outcomes of decisions in the Python core development community, the BDFL is hardly ever rude to anyone pushing an idea, and I don't recall any incident of name-calling to achieve the goal of rejecting someone's idea. So the "big dog barks loudest" mentality isn't exactly necessary to maintain discipline in a forum or control in a project.

being short with people

Posted Feb 18, 2010 19:22 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (1 responses)

There's another issue I thought of after my post:

Some people like to be seen having a discussion, or an argument, with a respected person.

If I have a silly idea about Alan Cox's part of the kernel, and if I thought he'd entertain a discussion of this idea, I might be very happy to have everyone see me and Alan Cox debating technical details. Few people will spot that my half of the conversation is nonsense :-) Makes me look good.

But, if I knew that I'd get publicly called an idiot, I'd be a lot more careful about the quality of my suggestions.

being short with people

Posted Feb 19, 2010 12:20 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

If I have a silly idea about Alan Cox's part of the kernel, and if I thought he'd entertain a discussion of this idea, I might be very happy to have everyone see me and Alan Cox debating technical details. Few people will spot that my half of the conversation is nonsense :-) Makes me look good.

Yes, but Alan Cox doesn't need to call you an idiot (and in my narrow experience with dealing with him, he wouldn't) in order to stop you looking good. He'd just need to challenge you on the technical aspects of any idea - for the "code is everything" school of thought, that's a decent implementation of such an idea - and leave you struggling to "show him the code" or, without needing to actually say it, "put up or shut up".

People in positions of genuine authority don't need to lash out at others. Doing so is often a sign of insecurity: that someone feels the need to convince others that they have more influence than they may actually have in practice.

best response to idiocy?

Posted Feb 21, 2010 10:06 UTC (Sun) by pjm (guest, #2080) [Link]

> What if you _are_ being a idiot though?

Surely “This is wrong” is all you need to be told? I can conceive of situations where “You're being idiotic” might be better than “This is wrong”. It's much harder to conceive of a situation on a mailing list where “You're an idiot” would be better than “You're being idiotic” or “This is wrong”.

More generally, saying “you're being X” is more likely to result in the person changing behaviour and becoming productive than “you're X”/“you're an X”; and “this idea/statement is X” is usually better still (less likely to result in defensiveness).

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 3:41 UTC (Wed) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link] (33 responses)

Having read both of the posts being referenced, I'm surprised to find that the LWN summary somehow misled me into thinking that this was a much more incendiary situation than it appears to actually be. I don't want to pick on a quickly written blurb, but which "some rather poor arguments" were you thinking of, Jake?

I did find one of Guzdial's points a bit silly (the worry that FOSS will convince parents that there's no money in programming and their kids should go be doctors or something instead), but that's a minor part of his argument. As he says in responding to DeKoenigsberg, "You're absolutely right that students cannot work on any commercial software project that they choose, but they can choose to get involved in any open source project. What I was claiming is that the actual, empirically-measured demographics of commercial developers is much more diverse than the empirically-measured demographics of open source development. You're right that the potential is much greater in open source. The reality is that it's not happening."

That's completely true, and should concern us.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 4:23 UTC (Wed) by jake (editor, #205) [Link] (31 responses)

> I don't want to pick on a quickly written blurb, but which "some
> rather poor arguments" were you thinking of, Jake?

Perhaps I was overly hasty in writing the blurb, but the same arguments that Greg pointed out were those that I was referring to (from Greg's analysis):

It's certainly fair to note that the barrier for entry to open source projects is often higher than it needs to be, but to call open source development "even more closed" than commercial software development is clearly, obviously, logically, indefensibly, wrong.

and

The argument that Mark follows up with, however -- that commercial development experience provides students with an inherently better ramp-up experience -- is deeply flawed.

I didn't say (or mean to say) that there was nothing in Guzdial's arguments that was of use ...

jake

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 8:59 UTC (Wed) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (30 responses)

It's certainly fair to note that the barrier for entry to open source projects is often higher than it needs to be, but to call open source development "even more closed" than commercial software development is clearly, obviously, logically, indefensibly, wrong.

Wishing something were not true does not make it so; if the evidence we've got says that open source development is a less diverse and accessible place to be a developer - especially if you're a woman, for example - your comment is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting lalalalala.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:19 UTC (Wed) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] (4 responses)

If the evidence says that. But it doesn't. All it does say is that there
are less developers of open source projects than there are in proprietary
development and that they are less diverse.

It does not say a single word about the reasons for this! You just assume
that the reason must be that it's easier to get involved with proprietary
software development, completely regarding more probable reasons like:

* for two decades, the proprietary model was the only one known to the
general public. That's huge momentum that has to be overcome first.
* you usually make money developing proprietary software! That's an
immediate benefit that people really like.

Things could clearly be better in many open source projects, but the truth
is certainly a little bit more complex, than you seem to think.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 10:34 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (1 responses)

All the places I have worked in enjoy very low entry barriers into projects. That leads directly to crap code. The cause is, of course, that commercial software development is intensely focused on time to market and keeping development costs low.
Quality code needs knowledge of the problem and the tools. With that in mind, some entry barrier is a good thing, provided it's not unnecessarily high.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 17:53 UTC (Wed) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

I think one of the points is that instead of a barrier, there should be a ramp -- the goal is to produce high quality code, but also to produce people who can produce the next round of high quality code. That doesn't mean you have to ship their first patch as submitted...

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 17:52 UTC (Wed) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link] (1 responses)

Uh, but surely there *is* lots of evidence that it is difficult to get involved in FOSS? AFAICT every educator who's tried has had multiple students get bounced off by flames, etc. I know for sure that this has been a problem for Summer of Code students, and they have all this institutional support behind them, never mind the random student just sending in a patch for fun. (Yes, yes, this is anecdotal, whatever. I haven't seen any controlled study giving evidence the other way, either, so we have to use what we have.)

And you're ignoring the diversity issue -- your "more probable reasons" all apply equally to everyone, so they don't explain why, e.g., men end up participating so much more. And in fact we don't have to speculate, since it's well documented that women face some serious obstacles to participation.

No-one's saying the truth is simple, but I think it's more productive to take a look at the obstacles that exist and think about whether they really reflect our values and goals.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 20:55 UTC (Wed) by xaoc (guest, #54140) [Link]

"we have to use what we have."

If we don't have much we better make some.

Now I know this may well be an exception but still:
A few weeks ago i sent a small patch to kde about kate/kwrite. The people were very nice and the first one to welcome me on the was female. The developer responsible for the specific file gave a tip on how to make the patch better later he included it in the package.

Let's not generalize quickly based on a few examples of flames or not here and there.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:45 UTC (Wed) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (24 responses)

"if the evidence we've got says that open source development is a less diverse and accessible place to be a developer"
There are some evidence that suggest it s less diverse, but none that suggest it is less accessible.

"especially if you're a woman, for example"
Access to most open source project is done online. Online, one does not have sex, race or religion (unless you willfully advertise it). How could 'open source projects' discriminate based on an unknown factor ? Is there is secret way to figure out the sex of the author of a patch ?

There is one major difference between closed source and open source dev that is sufficient to explain the demographic mix: employment.

There are 2 kind of people that do software: the one that enjoy it and the one that tolerate it in order to make a living.

The later category is exclusively recruited by closed-source company.
And that, in itself can explain the demographic mix of both models.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 16:13 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (23 responses)

The problem you're ignoring is that people do naturally advertise their gender, and often their race and their religion, too. It's inherent in their name.

For example, "Susan Douglas" has many people assuming female and white. "Mohammed al-Rafi" is going to lead to people assuming male, middle-eastern and Muslim. Ajay Singh will lead to assumptions of male, Sikh and Indian. John Wu-Cong will have people assuming male and Chinese. An American seeing VeNay Winston is likely to assume black, female, and undereducated.

Note that at this point I've not even gone into other factors, like cultural cues from the way you use language or react to criticism; there are patterns of behaviour in most cultures that are perceived as weak when men engage in them, but are expected of women.

Similarly, there are patterns of behaviour that are expected of men, but that result in women being seen as out of order - in my culture, the key word is "pushy". If an open-source project is full of this sort of behaviour, women stay away, because their past cultural cues (from pre-verbal age) tells them that they'll be ignored if they behave in a "natural" way, or bullied if they go with the flow.

There are also patterns of behaviour that are cultural; I have struggled to work with some people, because I come from a culture where questioning the boss is acceptable, whereas they came from one where you must never contradict someone senior to you.

In short, there's plenty of room for people to (unintentionally) drive away people from outside their specific cultural grouping (and note that most cultures have at least two internal groupings - one for males, one for females).

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 17:34 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (4 responses)

Fascinating. "Susan Douglas - female, white". So s/Susan/Frederic/ would presumably give you male,white? "Mohammed al-Rafi - male, mid-Eastern, Muslim". Or a guy from US whose parent(s) converted and who happens to be a atheist... "Ajay Singh - male, Sikh, Indian". I wouldn't have the slightest idea whether it's a male or female name and as for the country of birth... why not US or UK? "John Wu-Cong - male, Chinese". Or a guy who had a greatgrandfather from China. "VeNay Winston - black, female,
undereducated" - huh? You've lost me here, but then I'm not an American, I just live there...

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 18:05 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, s/Susan/Frederic/ would probably result in assuming male, white. And, as you've noticed, there are lots of alternative explanations for why someone has a particular name; these are just assumptions that people have made when I've suggested names to them (only one of the people was American).

I'm sure that there are names you can think of that cause you to make assumptions (warranted or otherwise) about the person who has that name; for example, I suspect that most kernel hackers would assume that someone called Linus is male. Similarly, your assumptions are likely to be wrong some of the time; for example, most English people will assume that someone called Andrea is female, while an Italian will assume male.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 18:25 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

What you missed is that Frederick Douglas was a very famous Black man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 18:31 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Possibly in America. I've never heard of him before, and nor have any of my friends here, nor indeed has my (single) American contact. It goes to show that the assumptions people make can be very, very wrong.

Nonetheless, I got his gender right from his name. And I've not even tried to get into cultural differences that indicate where you're from in any great depth.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 22:57 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Another name that would lead to confusion - even among English-speakers. Robin.

Most Brits would assume male, Americans would assume female, don't know about eg Aussies.

But the other thing is, simply the way you write. A linguistics expert, even without having a name to give him a clue, would be able to make a good guess as to sex and nationality simply from reading the post. In other words, we give away clues to our identity (and respond to clues in other peoples posts).

I'm sure many people here have a damn good clue as to my gender and nationality, and my nym doesn't give any clue as to that :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 22:39 UTC (Wed) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (17 responses)

"The problem you're ignoring is that people do naturally advertise their gender, and often their race and their religion, too. It's inherent in their name."
Really ? For instance 'farnz', that is your real name ?
Look at the 'name' of the poster in thread, How many of them allow you to conclusively infer anything about their gender ?

"there are patterns of behavior in most cultures that are perceived as weak when men engage in them, but are expected of women."
And, as true as that may be, it is not FOSS fault, nor is it it responsibly to fix each and every societal biais and prejudice.

Let me put it that way: the nature of Open source development lend itself to fairly easily conduct a double blind test study:

take a diverse group of contributor (or would be contributor), and submit their contributions indirectly, using randomly chosen avatar designed to project the said cultural/gender differentiation.
Then compare the rate of patch begin merged (or rejected).
If the ultra sexism attributed to FOSS is as acute as claimed, it won't take a huge sample to have a statistically significant result.

(that is: showing that the same person X get significantly more patch accepted when submitting them as John Doe, versus submitting them as Jane Doe)

"If an open-source project is full of this sort of behavior, women stay away,"
Let's assume that it is so... How to you justify that making such projects change their culture, and therefore reversing the category of people that feel uncomfortable within it, would be a more acceptable solution ?

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 23:11 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (16 responses)

LWN (unlike e-mail based projects such as the Linux kernel) actively encourages the use of nicknames, rather than full names. And "farnz" is closely related to my real name (Simon Farnsworth).

I've gone and looked at the names of posters in LKML threads, and names in the linux-2.6 git repository; almost all of them are using real names, many of which let me infer a likely gender, and in some cases, a likely cultural background. Now, I could be completely and utterly wrong in the assumptions I'm making (after all, they're built on my cultural background), but people do seem to use their real name when contributing to at least one major open source project.

I note also that you're attributing a hidden motive to my participation here - you previously said that I couldn't even think about guessing what gender, race, or religion the participants in open source projects might be, because it all takes place over the Internet. Now, you've gone to demanding that I show fault, and started to claim that I'm insisting that these problems be fixed by OSS; that was never my claim.

I am not demanding that projects change. I am asking them to be honest about their biases, which in some cases will require introspection; if a project genuinely wishes to participation by some groups, then it does not need to change at all. If it does want more women, or more Buddists, or more Zulus, and has a culture that deters them from participating, it needs to recognise that just because we're all communicating via computer doesn't imply that race/religion/gender issues are eliminated.

I also would like projects that are deterring some groups of potential contributors from getting involved to understand that they're doing so, and to ensure that the groups they're chasing away are deliberately selected. After all, not all groups of possible contributors are people you want to have involved - I'd rather not have the group "people who do not, and will never, understand C" working on the Linux kernel, for example.

Incidentally, your double-blind test study is not a good study; the point I'm making is that there is rarely (if ever) overt sexism or racism in successful open-source projects, and thus I would expect all projects to accept patches on merit; this doesn't mean that a project will attract or keep a diverse selection of contributors.

The problem is in the way the culture of projects interacts with the cultures of possible contributors, which results in some groups not participating at all; further, every project of significant size needs contributors to do more than fire patches at the project and ignore feedback. For example, when Al Viro deconstructs someone's abuse of the VFS interface, contributors who intend to submit things that use VFS APIs should be paying attention, and noting what he says. You therefore need your study to look at why some groups are underrepresented in open source as compared to closed source; from that study, you can determine what needs to change, and where the changes are needed.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 0:19 UTC (Thu) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh, lovely. Let me see if I got it right:
* we are assumed to have biases acting against mostly unspecified groups
* it's not the accusers' responsibility to provide any examples, let alone evidence.
* _we_ should come up with the list of such biases, or admit dishonesty.
* no, showing the lack of discrimination against a group is not enough (are you seriously saying that you can recognize Buddhists by email address, BTW?); the biases are supposed to be in culture being uncomfortable for group in question.

Frankly, it's getting SCO-worthy. The same kind of logics...

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 10:03 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

I'm afraid you got it wrong:

  • Yes, you have biases acting against various groups. Some of them are clearly specified (e.g. Linus Torvalds is biased against people who think the kernel should be written in C++ not C). Others are unconscious, but you'll quickly spot them if you're looking for them. The worst are those that result from culture clashes.
  • No; the accuser should provide examples of groups they think you are biased against, with an explanation of why they think that it's you, not a general thing (e.g. 3% of open source contributors are women, 20% of closed source contributors are women).
  • Once you have been faced with an evidenced claim, you get two choices:
    1. Try and identify your unconscious biases that lead to such a claim being true, and deal with them. This might be (for example), toning down your language when ripping apart a bad patch, or leaving a flame in a drafts folder for 24 hours, then rewriting it if you still want to send it.
    2. Assert that you don't actually care; if the group that is underrepresented cares, it should do something about it, and if it wants specific changes from you, it has to ask for them and justify making you change.
  • Showing lack of discrimination is enough. However, that's not simply a case of showing that good patches will be accepted regardless of who submits them; you also need to show that people who write good code are getting involved regardless of their gender, religious beliefs, race or other irrelevant factors.

The point is that unreasonable discrimination is not just the obvious "ooh look. This patch is from A GURL! It's not worth reading." It's also subtler issues that put people off from contributing at all.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 1:50 UTC (Thu) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (13 responses)

"I could be completely and utterly wrong in the assumptions I'm making [...], but people do seem to use their real name when contributing to at least one major open source project."
All I can tell is that, in the linux kernel they use 'real looking' names. I have no way to know if 'Jim Smith' is really a man, as the firstname tend to indicate, or a 'nom de plume'.

"I note also that you're attributing a hidden motive to my participation here"
I'm sorry if that is the impression. that is not the intention.

"and started to claim that I'm insisting that these problems be fixed by OSS; that was never my claim."
Noted.

"...if a project genuinely wishes to participation by some groups, then it does not need to change at all."
False dichotomy: there is at least a third option: the 'I Don't care what the actual or perceived demographic mix is'

"If it does want more women, or more Buddists, or more Zulus"
Why would a project want that for the sake of it? Wouldn't a project want to attract the most talented persons it can, regardless of anything else ?

"it needs to recognise that just because we're all communicating via computer doesn't imply that race/religion/gender issues are eliminated."
Again, race/religion/gender is only visible insofar as the contributor want to make it visible.
I can participate in a OSS projet as Georges Brock, Daniel Sullivan, Yullila Tcheckovsky, Wei Pang Tsu, Dominique Durant, Hans Weiser, Amadou Ahidjo, etc... And you would still not know what my ethic background, my sex and even less my religion is... and quite frankly nor should you care.
(note: farnz could very well have stood for Farid Nariz, instead of Simon Farnsworth. As far as I'm concern that is completely irrelevant to the quality of your argument. Furthermore, for all I know you real name could be Maria Castello... How could I possibly know ? I this context, your name is what you say it is. Again, on the internet you are who you say you are, and it doesn't not have to be 'real')

"Incidentally, your double-blind test study is not a good study; the point I'm making is that there is rarely (if ever) overt sexism or racism in successful open-source projects, and thus I would expect all projects to accept patches on merit; this doesn't mean that a project will attract or keep a diverse selection of contributors."
If a project already accept contributions on merit, what else is there to do ? start to accept contributions based on other criteria than merit ?
(quite frankly, I would expect such a test study to show 'some' sexism and/or racism, certainly not 'overt' but still there. Participating in a OSS project does not magically shed everyone of their prejudices.)

Most of the objections as I understand them, are based on the discrimination, sexism of the potential contributor's cultural background (In my culture I'm expected to behave submissively(for example), therefore the OSS project must set the same expectation for me, or I won't fell comfortable - yes this is what "a culture that deters them from participating" means). Why should a tentative meritocracy goes out of its way to accommodate other's sexism/discrimination ?

"every project of significant size needs contributors to do more than fire patches at the project"
I used patch as a proxy, but 'contribution' is a more generic term that convey my intent better.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 10:21 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

We're, I think, agreeing violently. My point is that discrimination that results in an open source project not being a meritocracy can be subtle, and that projects should be aware of this, and should try and correct for their own subtle discrimination.

If I've understood you correctly, you're claiming that open source projects should be aiming to be true meritocracies, so that when the stats come up bad, it's a reflection not of open source culture, but of the wider world we find ourselves in.

These are not opposing viewpoints; unfortunately, some people in my camp have a nasty habit of assuming that until the stats are balanced, the project in which the stats are unbalanced has a problem. This is not my viewpoint; I argue that for as long as society as a whole has a problem, projects should watch themselves for signs that they've stopped being meritocracies.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 23:17 UTC (Thu) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link]

"projects should watch themselves for signs that they've stopped being meritocracies."

I do agree with that...

I just strongly disagree that the demographic breakdown of the contributor list is such a sign.
I also strongly disagree that the tone of a mailing list is any indication of the level of meritocracy achieved by a project.

Quite frankly, as far as I am concerned, the worse part about being called an idiot of mailing list is when I come to realize that I WAS indeed an idiot... otherwise, a Courteline quote comes to mine
"Passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbecile est un delice de fin gourmet"

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 20:34 UTC (Thu) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (10 responses)

I think you definitely want to attract women, just for the sake of it. They represent about 50% of the world population, and thus 50% of potential contributors. If you do something that deters women specifically, you handicap yourself. The same goes for any other demographic, but especially women are a huge resource that open source communities just miss out on.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 20:42 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

there is a huge difference between working to avoid deterring anyone from contributing and saying that you want contributers of a certain flavor just for the sake of it.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 22:01 UTC (Thu) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

Theoretically maybe, but you need to know what you're doing wrong and turn that around by targeting those specific minorities. Just having some vague goal of allowing anyone to participate will not solve the very real problem.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 23:01 UTC (Thu) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (7 responses)

"They represent about 50% of the world population, and thus 50% of potential contributors."

Asian-American represent about 5% of the US population, African-America represent about 12% of the us population, therefore according to your argument, the NBA should have 12% f black and 5% of Asian, otherwise that indicate a 'very real problem'.
I would note also other groups that seems to have such 'very real problem', such as Country singers, Blues musician, Downhill Skier, Surfers (way under-represented in Swiss, and other inhabitant of land-locked countries), Chess players, etc...

Theses kind of fallacious use of stats are really annoying.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 18, 2010 23:58 UTC (Thu) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (3 responses)

Oh I forgot another 'organization' with such a 'very real problem': Health-care providers.
In the US, among the 90 years old or older, there is only 24% of men.
Surely that indicated that Health-care providers are sexist and that there is a 'very real problem' that need to be addressed their indisputably proven bias against men.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 19, 2010 0:54 UTC (Fri) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link] (2 responses)

What? No-one thinks that it is always, inherently, a problem to have a gender imbalance in every domain. (This just in! Very few men bear children! Also, very few women are diagnosed with prostate cancer! Oh noes!) That's a straw-man you just made up.

A gender imbalance is a clue -- a symptom -- that shows there must be something going on to create the imbalance -- especially when the imbalance is as ridiculously huge as it is in FOSS. The question then is whether that "something" is something we want to support. In the case of health care providers, well, women tend to live a bit longer, doesn't seem to have anything to do with the health care providers. In the case of FOSS, well, our communities contain many people who drive away women by being jerks to them, and many more people who stand by and let it happen. (Seriously, this is *copiously* documented, see any of the formal studies, talk to any woman in FOSS, read any previous LWN article/discussion on the subject, etc.) That's a little different.

For instance, there are people who -- whenever this issue comes up -- start flaming, making up straw men, and otherwise trying to derail reasoned discussion. This kind of nonsense is very effective at telling potential developers that any problems they have will be ignored or mocked, and that their presence is not valued, so they go somewhere else.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 19, 2010 4:33 UTC (Fri) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (1 responses)

"That's a straw-man you just made up."
"doesn't seem to have anything to do with the health care providers"
That was not a straw-man, that was sarcasm...
It didn't realize that I needed <sarcasm/> tag around that.

A gender imbalance is a [..] a symptom...
aka a weasel word. Labeling it a 'symptom' is a Begging the question fallacy. You postulate your conclusion in in the premise.

"In the case of FOSS, well, our communities contain many people who drive away women by being jerks to them"
Nope. There are certainly people who are jerk, but they are mostly equal-opportunity jerk. Since everyone is subjected to the same amount of 'jerkitude', it is not discriminatory.
Claiming that women are poor soft thing that can take it, in such a drastic fashion that it explain the demographic ratio, is actually insulting to women.

Again, referring to previous post. Establish that contributions in a project are rejected on the ground of sex/race or other irrelevant factor.. then you'll have a case that that project need adjusting.

"(Seriously, this is *copiously* documented, see any of the formal studies,"
I've read them. (well, I've read the one done under the auspice of the EC, a couple of years back, IIRC)
Most 'arguments' in that study concerned society at large and had nothing to to with FOSS. The numbers were seriously twisted, and many time the conclusions of the author(s) were worded DESPITE what the numbers actually showed.
(in other word: make an hypothesis, test it and when the test failed to prove the hypothesis, just ignore it and claim that the hypothesis still stand.)

"talk to any woman in FOSS" And how would I know that I'm 'talking' to a woman, are you one ? Should I take your word for it ? Am I one ? Please indulge me with your expert guess.
I would find it extremely weird to actually inquire on the sex/age/ethnicity/religion/... of a poster in some Dev related mailing-list. How could that kind of information be relevant ?

"For instance, there are people who[...]
Nice passive-aggressive tirade.

The whole "watch you language, there are women around" lobbying is highly condescending. I find that kind of Dark-aged chivalry much more offensive than the occasional sexist jerk. Women do not need a FOSS paralympic to win medals.



Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 19, 2010 5:29 UTC (Fri) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

> Nope. There are certainly people who are jerk, but they are mostly equal-opportunity jerk. Since everyone is subjected to the same amount of 'jerkitude', it is not discriminatory.

This is not true. Again, ask the women who participate. The EC study you dislike found that 80% of women who responded had noticed sexist behavior. I.e., non-equal-opportunity jerkitude. Or, y'know, look at any of these threads.

> Claiming that women are poor soft thing that can take it, in such a drastic fashion that it explain the demographic ratio, is actually insulting to women.

Nonsense. I couldn't take half the stuff some of the women who participate have to put up with (which goes up to and including death threats). I'm not still here because I have a tougher skin, I'm still here because I don't need one.

> "talk to any woman in FOSS" And how would I know that I'm 'talking' to a woman, are you one ? Should I take your word for it ? Am I one ? Please indulge me with your expert guess.

So, uh, how is that a response? Is the claim that since you can't find any women (and obviously you've looked very hard, it's not like they have blogs and give keynotes on sexism in FOSS and maintain wikis documenting sexist behavior or anything), then what they say is irrelevant?

> The whole "watch you language, there are women around" lobbying is highly condescending. I find that kind of Dark-aged chivalry much more offensive than the occasional sexist jerk.

You're right, that's a pretty sexist way of looking at things. But you're the one who's reading that into my comments. I'm just saying that acting like sexist jerks causes harm to people and communities. "Try not to do harm" is not a particularly dark-aged value, AFAIK. YMMV.

And did you really just claim the right to judge some sorts of sexism particularly offensive, and others relatively harmless, on behalf of those women you can't find to talk to? That's very, well... chivalrous of you.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 19, 2010 19:36 UTC (Fri) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (2 responses)

So, are you saying that women have a natural tendency to not participate in FOSS? I can't believe that's what you're saying. What do you think accounts for the low numbers of women in FOSS?

What I'm saying, is that women and men have an equal tendency to get interested in FOSS. So following from that, there should be around 50% women in FOSS. The *fact* that this is NOT the case means we're missing out on that HUGE resource.

That's a huge problem, because we would almost double our number of contributors if we could attract more women.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 20, 2010 0:40 UTC (Sat) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (1 responses)

"What I'm saying, is that women and men have an equal tendency to get interested in FOSS."
I understand that is what you're saying. But do you have any data to back-up that claim, or is it just wishful thinking ?

"So following from that, there should be around 50% women in FOSS."

Yet it is not the case, so _maybe_ your postulate is wrong ?

Let me try another way:

s/FOSS/Chess/ in your statement... what do you conclude ?
(note: there is 1 woman in the top 100 chess players as of January 2010. I don't know why, but that is the case.)

"because we would almost double our number of contributors if we could attract more women."
99% (1) of the men (and 99.9% of the women) do not participate in FOSS, Why do you think it is more pertinent to concentrate of the 0.9% gap, rather than the 99% un-taped resource.

(1): I could not found data. I picked a number. 67 millions distinct OSS contributors worldwide sound like a generous estimate. But the same argument would hold with 90% - 99% - and I quite certain that there is not 670 millions of open source contributors.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 20, 2010 14:34 UTC (Sat) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

You can try it any way you want, but you're avoiding the issue. Women are not somehow less interested in FOSS. Asians are not somehow less interested in FOSS. Muslims are not somehow less interested in FOSS. They are very normal people with the same kind of interests as Christian white males.

What they are, is scared away by a crowd of otherwise very normal people who just don't know that they make minorities uncomfortable. And the fact is, if you are aware of that issue, you can double the community. Tell me again how you are going to double the FOSS community.

I don't care about chess, so I don't care to figure out if there is a problem there.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 15:29 UTC (Wed) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link]

I want to see the figures he's using for the "empirically-measured demographics", for open source, commercial and mixed projects. I don't believe that this data really exists.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 4:01 UTC (Wed) by EnigmaticSeraph (subscriber, #50582) [Link] (1 responses)

As a student at Georgia Tech, I would like to extend my apologies to the LWN community.
Mark Guzdial, though one of our luminaries, is secretly known by many students to be an
arrogant and most narrow-minded person. I sincerely hope (though doubt) that he will at least
not spread these sorts of poorly constructed thoughts given his position of power.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 4:56 UTC (Wed) by leoc (guest, #39773) [Link]

It is better to address his arguments via nicely thought out responses like this than silly ad-hominem attacks.

Do it for free for years?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 4:23 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Kids have to do it for free for years before they can get a professional job, if ever? Sounds like football or basketball, and lots of parents encourage their kids to do that.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 6:13 UTC (Wed) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link]

Unique Nature of Information and Intellectual Property

Information is unlike traditional renewable and non-renewable resources
which diminish as they are consumed and suffer from over consumption.
Information does not diminish as it is consumed. Instead information grows
with wider distribution and consumption. With wider distribution and
consumption the growth rate of knowledge increases. Unlike traditional
resources rationing information does not preserve this precious resource,
but ratter as access to knowledge is reduced fewer contributors are able to
pass on their precious knowledge and knowledge is lost. Knowledge and
information does not stand in isolation.

Much of how our Information Technology has developed and will develop is
direct result of the particular nature of information. Much has changed
since the early years of mainframes, to Unix workstations, to personal
computers, to web enabled technology. Accessibility and low cost
distribution are the hallmarks of success. Unix workstations provided a
common OS interface expanding its users and contributors. Personal
computers with its common OS put computing power into the hands of the
people, enabling low cost software through the massive customer base. At
the same time proprietary software companies restricted access to the
knowledge required to build their increasing complex computers systems.
This gave advantage to the largest corporation which could assemble the
largest pool of knowledge and contributors. In areas where communication
and storage standards were not defined the largest corporation had ability
to define proprietary formats and insure these formats were propagated
through the large user base. However with the traditional proprietary model
the knowledge required to understand the systems inner workings was a
deeply held secrete, which met outside contribution was highly restricted.
The growth and economic benefits of Information Technology has presented an
increasing demanded for engineers and scientists. Deep knowledge of
proprietary licensed systems is restricted, driving contributors to explore
open systems with either optional sharing or mandatory sharing, BSD
licenses or GPL licenses. Proprietary technology may come and go, but
openly shared technology which comes out of BSD and GPL licensed solutions
will remain.

Information Technology businesses require access to engineers and scientists
trained in the deep inner workings of Technology on which Information
Technology is based. Information Technology spans virtually all industries;
industrial and mobile control, manufacturing automation, finance,
distribution, sales, communications, consumer electronics and entertainment.
I believe Universities of Science and Technology have an important role to
play meeting the business demand for skill engineers and scientists.

[so-called] Open Source: dangerous to computing education?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 7:04 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm also a Georgia Tech alumni and am embarrassed by this.

But the larger issue is that Guzdial, as someone whose (meta?) expertise is in education,
seems to have less useful information on what actually should be taught.

It made me recall what Dijkstra had to say about ten years ago (how he is needed
more than ever today to dispel the fog of nostrum-chasing in CS). From his "1283"
correspondence
(http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx...):
-----
"At my former university it was a firm principle of the informatics group that we would not
teach our students how to use industrial products. The main reasons at the time were
•     the quality of industrial products was never up to academic standards, and
•     the market being as fickle as it is, the industrial product was of volatile significance only.
Later I learned how much the purposes of the University and those of industry can diverge.
Universities, believe it or not, are interested in education, but I learned of industries that were
not interested in education at all, neither in an educated work force, nor in an educated
customer base. On the contrary, they preferred a docile, brainwashed work force and
undemanding customers hooked on their products.
Another remark is that it is the task of a "leading University" to lead. In particular this means
for us that we should give society not what it asks for, but what it needs. This issue is
particularly acute for CS because their society asks for snake oil, for more of the same,
though we all know that it hardly works.
-----
If Guzdial is truly interested in education, then like the sciences that CS both emulates and
transcends (let's not forget that to Dijkstra, computer science was the most difficult branch of
applied mathematics -- the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure ones) it should
adopt the customs of transparency, collegiality, and critique are the bulwarks of winnowing
the surviving truths of intellectual inquiry from the chaff. Almost none of this is possible when
*using* proprietary software. Assuming the best possible interpretation that Guzdial is
merely defending the future industrial employment of his students, we should ask to what
ends? In a blog post two years ago, he speaks
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNKJ4EHR75FBSRY) of a recruiter describing a
desperate corporate need for programmers willing to work "far more than 40 hours per
week." No criticism, or even comment, on this appalling admission of planned exploitation
in the name of competitiveness. Note that one often unstated advantage of free software is
that it self-regulates to some extent against exploitation -- we can well do without
the race to the snake-oil that the proprietary companies feel is their only leverage to
outflank one another.

In fact, his most confident criticism seems to be that programs written by an aberrant
demographic are themselves aberrant. This is transparent nonsense. We are stronger as a
society with diversity. Presuming an innate superiority of a program written by a (diverse
demographic assortment) rather than (narrow demographic assortment) is irrelevant, and
the worst sort of vague identity politics triumphalism. Of course, having (insert excluded
demographic) participating in free software development who would otherwise feel unwelcome
is a benefit to the community, and that challenge is perhaps the only useful call to arms from
Guzdial' contribution.

Meanwhile, I call on Guzdial to address the real exploitation of the commercial software
sector. Norman Matloff's criticisms of the industry (Debunking the myth of a desperate
software labor shortage, etc) would be a good start. Matloff's uncovering of the vast turnover
in IT employees (with only 18% remaining in the field twenty years post graduation)
is a dirty little secret so apparently embarrassing to the field that it is never even mentioned
in polite CS company.

[so-called] Open Source: dangerous to computing education?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 13:47 UTC (Wed) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

the real exploitation of the commercial software sector

I don't know much about the situation in the U.S. or Western Europe in this regard, but from what I've heard and experienced, at least in Eastern Europe the commercial software sector is exceptionally well paid, relative to the rest of the population. If this is exploitation then we need some more.

[so-called] Open Source: dangerous to computing education?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 16:19 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

The money in the US was also very good, but has not seen the growths it used to.. the typical IT worker (eg a systems technician.. not a programmer) now average salaries at below local median income where 20 years ago they would have been way above. I noticed a lot of US radio ads this past year for outsourcing your IT technicians to XYZ because they could cost a company X/year where X was about 90% of the median local income (40k/year here but something like 90k/year when I was driving around Boston). ] Most of the places I know go through IT people pretty fast.. a standard tech lasts maybe 6-18 months at a site before being replaced.

In Eastern Europe the economics is very different and while the salary is equivalent or lower to the US employee it is way above the median locally.

Teaching "industrial products"

Posted Feb 17, 2010 18:35 UTC (Wed) by dbruce (guest, #57948) [Link]

I was recently stunned to discover how completely Microsoft has taken over "computer education" in secondary schools, or at least at my daughter's school. At a parent's club meeting, the computer teacher gave a talk (a powerpoint presentation, of course), boasting about the extensive experience students get learning about the intricacies of Microsoft Office. A couple of student-created "powerpoints" were then played for us, and the parents generally were delighted that their daughters were becoming such "computer experts." The teacher also boasted that all students completing the school's course qualified for some sort of MS Office certification, which she described as "the SAT of computers".

I asked the teacher if the students did any actual programming, mentioning that I manage two widely used OSS projects that have participated in Google's Summer of Code. Of course, they never write (or even read) a single line of code - the purpose of the school's computer lab is to familiarize them with "how computers are really used".

The whole thing is appalling. The main lesson for students seems to be that a computer is defined as "a device that uses Microsoft Windows to run Microsoft Office". Learning MS Office is not education. It is as if I had met with the music teacher and learned that the entire music curriculum consisted of learning to purchase songs on iTunes and manage iPod playlists.

David Bruce

[so-called] Open Source: dangerous to computing education?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 18:51 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Meanwhile, I call on Guzdial to address the real exploitation of the commercial software sector. Norman Matloff's criticisms of the industry (Debunking the myth of a desperate software labor shortage, etc) would be a good start. Matloff's uncovering of the vast turnover in IT employees (with only 18% remaining in the field twenty years post graduation) is a dirty little secret so apparently embarrassing to the field that it is never even mentioned in polite CS company.

And what about the computer game business? Stories of huge staff turnover, hugely exploitative working environments, unpaid salaries, and strategic bankruptcies persist despite such things going on for decades. That's another male-dominated bastion of software development that presumably gets pushed off the edge of the spreadsheet when the proprietary software advocates want to make some point or other.

[so-called] Open Source: dangerous to computing education?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 23:38 UTC (Wed) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link]

"Meanwhile, I call on Guzdial to address the real exploitation of the commercial software sector. Norman Matloff's criticisms of the industry (Debunking the myth of a desperate software labor shortage, etc) would be a good start. Matloff's uncovering of the vast turnover in IT employees (with only 18% remaining in the field twenty years post graduation) is a dirty little secret so apparently embarrassing to the field that it is never even mentioned in polite CS company."

Your post was insightful, except for this blurb about Norm Matloff.
Mr. Matloff uses anecdotal evidence to arrive at his "conclusions." I have called him on that 10 years ago already.
He is "never even mentioned" in CS company because he is simply wrong.

Gender problem is endemic to stem fields

Posted Feb 17, 2010 13:44 UTC (Wed) by jhubbard (guest, #5513) [Link]

There's a problem with women in stem fields in general. Open source exacerbates the issue due to the fact that a lot of it requires putting in time during non-working hours. If opensource employers are pulling from the community, there's going to be a lack of female representation. (Consider the lack of women in upper management too. They seem to have just as big a problem.)

The problem with stem careers is the general problem of working long hours and trying to raise a family. Bad working conditions is a problem for men and women. I wonder at times if it is even worth it, esp. with the prevalence of a lack of overtime pay.

Putting time into an opensource project means that you have to consider the costs to the benefits. My guess is that a lot of women decide that it's not worth it. There are lots of guys that have decided not to invest the time. Couple that with the sometimes hostile environment and you can see that it might not be the best of choices.

Women opt out of math/science to raise families

Silicon Valley: You and Some of Your VC's have a Gender Problem

Diversity not impressive in non-OSS world

Posted Feb 17, 2010 14:34 UTC (Wed) by dwheeler (guest, #1216) [Link]

The diversity of non-OSS organizations isn't impressive, either. Many private companies don't disclose, with the result that skewed numbers are being compared. Many companies, such as Google and Apple, claim that their diversity numbers are trade secrets.

Where to begin?

Posted Feb 17, 2010 17:07 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Although one can make valid points about the diversity of high-profile people in high-profile open source projects, I can't help wondering about the motivations.

First, we have "concern" for all those people getting into computing education via open source. Well, I think a lot of people got into computing education via the microcomputer revolution - something which was a proprietary/homebrew/hobbyist hybrid - and the result of that may well have been a male predominance in education and industry, too. Why the special "concern" about open source now?

Then, we have a deliberate "compare and contrast" exercise featuring an initiative to "broaden participation in computing" and a blog post (actually extensively reviewed previously in various communities) describing what one might refer to as the "scale of diversity" (or "diversity of diversity" if you're being clever) in various open source projects: the Linux kernel top table is very male; other projects are very female. I guess the implicit argument is that top-down things are better than self-organising things, and people shouldn't trust those open source types to "do the right thing".

Finally, we get the cheap shot: "I learned that it is not acceptable to criticize religion, Santa Claus, or open source development". I know of various people who are working actively to encourage broad participation in open source development; such people clearly accept the deficiencies of their communities; many such people aren't actually "open source" people at all, but are "Free Software" people who don't claim methodological superiority over how certain companies write software - the old debate about quality - but do insist that openness is preferable. Given that there is a debate in many places about diversity, such remarks are disingenuous if not plain juvenile.

I get the impression that the various Free Software and open source movements are a thorn in the side of organisations like the ACM ("We're trying to convince students that talk is also valuable in computing.") given that people have somewhere else to turn if they're interested in developing their expertise further. When I was a subscriber to Linux Journal and they were playing fast and loose with their subscriber list (as is the American style), I'd get mailshots from the ACM (or maybe the IEEE, or maybe both). I suppose these organisations know where to get their new recruits.

By regurgitating the same old "geek folklore" soundbites from Linus Torvalds as if they were the banner under which everyone in any kind of open source or Free Software community could be bundled up and labelled as a single thing, just as one might do if "open source" were perceived as a competitive threat to one's organisation and had to be treated like another single corporate entity, I sense another attempt to demonstrate relevancy by the high-priesthood of journals and professional bodies. I just hope that the articles published in their journals entertain more rigour than their apparent outreach attempts.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 19:23 UTC (Wed) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Guzdial is really out of touch, not only with open source development, but also with the reality of commercial development.

> Students can get started in software development at a company by doing
> tasks that aren't directly about writing software, but are about the whole
> enterprise. These legitimate peripheral tasks serve as a stepping stone
> into the process, like writing documentation or running subjects in
> usability testing

When a computer science student interns at a company, it's almost always as a software developer. Companies assume that most engineers cannot write good English. If they wanted documentation written, they would hire an English major.

Similarly, usability testing is done by another group of people. What engineers find usable or unusable is no guide to how the general public will react. Also, it's cheaper to hire people without qualifications to do work that doesn't require qualifications.

The only environments I know of where newcomers write documentation and do quality assurance are... open source development and academia. So this argument is not only wrong, but the very opposite of the truth.

With regard to his comments about community participation... This guy apparently has not heard of kernel janitors, or all of the groups that exist to promote women in open source.

He implies that open source projects value "talk" (i.e. theoretical beauty and elegance) less than commercial projects. Whatever planet this guy is from, it's not a planet where actual commercial development takes place. If he had worked, even for a single month, at a company that was in the middle of shipping a product, he would soon learn how foolish his comments are.

He also doesn't understand how people get paid for developing and maintaining open source software. Given his astonishing ignorance of the rest of the world outside academia, this should come as no surprise.

I'm sorry if this post comes across as an ad hominem, but Guzdial's post is just incredibly misinformed. He is as far from his region of expertise as I would be if I started spouting off about (say) algebraic topology.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 17, 2010 22:09 UTC (Wed) by bkuhn (subscriber, #58642) [Link]

I think that Guzdial is simply not aware of how much interest and desire there is about usability in FLOSS, and also how often FLOSS volunteer involvement leads to real employment for many developers. Finally, the problems of diversity and sexism are serious ones, but I believe they are shared throughout all of computing (including academic CS, where Guzdial works himself), not just in FLOSS specifically. I have written a complete blog post discussing these points at length.

Open source: dangerous to computing education? (opensource.com)

Posted Feb 19, 2010 21:30 UTC (Fri) by dps (guest, #5725) [Link]

I did my first computer science degree quite a long time ago at a dead beat outfit called Oxford university. Although there were options commercial development was not one of them. The range of tools used was much *more* diverse than you find in commercial environments.

Among other things I know what a mean calculator is and what it illustrates. The "best" options probably depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to understand theoretical CS then 99.98% of commercial development is probably not worth anything.

I can see the value of "commercial" experience if you want to get paid $$$$$. I seriously doubt it helps if you want to publish something in an ACM journal, where you probably do need mathematics and do not need eye candy.


Copyright © 2010, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds