User talk:HLHJ

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Editor experience invitation

Hi HLHJ :) I'm looking for people to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested.

By the way, I remember bumping into you a few years ago and having a nice conversation. It's nice to still see you around. For some reason I thought you had become inactive. I'm glad that this was a misperception on my part. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Clovermoss! Nice to hear from you again. I've written a few drafts of respoonses to those questions, but I still need to think on it. I will answer, but probably not for a week or so; if it goes longer than that, feel free to remind me (or not).

Congrats on the trust reposed in you by handing you the mop, by the way. I think you'll do it well.

You probably had good reason to think me inactive; I am sometimes absent here for longish stretches. It's normal, and it's never been because I was fed up or had quit or anything, just offwiki reasons, most of them positive. HLHJ (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to take your time. It's good to hear you have good stuff going on offwiki. I also appreciate the confidence in regards to my sysop status. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's your reminder since it's been more than a week and you asked for one after that time period. I sincerely don't want you to feel pressured though, you can take your time with it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Clovermoss. I've been unexpectedly unable to do anything onwiki recently (huh, contrib log says since March 31st) for totally off-wiki reasons; I'll try to get it done in a solid block of time next weekend. Sorry for the delay. HLHJ (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to apologize, I just wanted to give the reminder because you asked for one. Good luck dealing with the off-wiki stuff and hopefully it's all good things like you were mentioning before. If not, I hope things get better for you. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, April 2024

The Growth team will now send quarterly reports to keep you in the loop. Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work.

If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Community Configuration

Growth features are currently configurable at Special:EditGrowthConfig. This quarter we are working on making Community Configuration accessible for other MediaWiki developers while also moving Growth feature configuration to the new CommunityConfiguration extension.

An early version of Community Configuration can be tested at Spanish Beta Wikipedia. We plan to release the new Community Configuration extension to pilot wikis (Arabic and Spanish Wikipedia) in early May, 2024. The first non-Growth team feature to utilize Community Configuration will be Automoderator.

In parallel with the development, the Growth team will propose Community Configuration usage guidelines, Community Configuration design guidelines, and provide technical documentation.

Experiment Results

Add a Image experiment analysis results

The Growth team conducted an experiment to assess the impact of the “Add an Image” structured task on the Newcomer Homepage's "Suggested Edits" module. This analysis finds that the Add an Image structured task leads to an increase in newcomer participation on the mobile web platform, particularly by making constructive (non-reverted) article edits:

• The likelihood that mobile web newcomers make their first article edit (+17.0% over baseline)
• The likelihood that they are retained as newcomers (+24.3% over baseline)
• The number of edits they make during their first two weeks on the wiki (+21.8% over baseline)
• A lower probability of the newcomers' edits will be reverted (-3.3% over baseline).

Personalized praise experiment results

This feature was developed for Mentors as part of the Growth team's Positive Reinforcement project. When A/B testing on Spanish Wikipedia, we found no significant impact on retention, but we found a significant positive impact on newcomer productivity. However, we concluded that the results weren’t positive enough to justify the time investment from Mentors. We plan to discuss this feature with our pilot wikis, and consider further improvements before scaling this feature further. Meanwhile, communities willing to test the feature can ask to have it deployed. (T361763)

English donors encouraged to try editing

As in previous years, donors were directed to a Thank you page after donation (example). However, this year we tested a new “Try editing Wikipedia,” call to action on the Thank You page. This call to action linked to a unique account creation page. From this account creation page we were able to track Registrations and Activation (editing for the first time). During the English banner campaign, the Donor Thank you page led to 4,398 new accounts, and 441 of those accounts went on to constructively edit within 24 hours. (T352900)

Future work

Annual Plan

The Growth team and the Editing team will work on the WE1.2 Key Result in the coming fiscal year. We will start initial discussions with communities soon to help finalize our plans. (T361657)

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We plan to A/B test adding a new Community Configurable module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We are early in the planning phase of this project that will take place first at our pilot wikis and wikis volunteering. We welcome community feedback on initial designs and plans, in any language at our project talk page.

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18:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

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WT:CGR

The discussion you started on WT:CGR has revitalised. Ifly6 (talk) 01:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, July 2024

Community Configuration

The Growth team released Community Configuration at all Wikipedias. You can access it at Special:CommunityConfiguration.

This new special page replaces Special:EditGrowthConfig. For now, all Growth features can be configured using Community Configuration. Configuration for AutoModerator (T365046) and other features will be available in the future.

You can help with translations. The interface translation is done at Translatewiki.net. You can also help translate the documentation.

If you attend Wikimania 2024, please join us for the session about Community configuration's future!

Current work

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We will add a new Community Configurable module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We have released a simple version available to beta wikis. We will conduct an A/B test at our pilot wikis using the new Metrics Platform. We still welcome community feedback on initial designs and plans, in any language at our project talk page.

Future work

Increase constructive activation on mobile

As part of the Growth team 2024/2025 Annual Plan, the Growth team will explore various ways to increase the percentage of newcomers who successfully start editing.

Editing a Wikipedia page requires too much context and patience. It means many trial and error for newcomers to contribute, meaning a steeper learning curve and potential discouraging reverts. To support a new generation of volunteers, we will increase the number and availability of smaller, structured, and more task-specific editing workflows (E.g. Edit Check and Structured Tasks). The Growth team will primarily focus on Structured Tasks, while working closely with the Editing team to ensure our work integrates well with Edit Check.

Stay informed

Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work. If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

15:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Regenerative dentistry

Hello, HLHJ. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Regenerative dentistry, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 04:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Confirmat screw moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Confirmat screw, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Dan arndt (talk) 02:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the note, Dan arndt. It's my understanding that it should only be moved to the draftspace if there is some doubt as to whether it is notable; I'm pretty sure it's notable, but if you've tried and failed to find notability-establishing sources, I'll look for some. Sorry for the kerfuffle. HLHJ (talk) 03:02, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Confirmat screw has been accepted

Confirmat screw, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thanks again, and happy editing!

asilvering (talk) 01:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, October 2024

Current work

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We will add a new module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We have released a simple version on beta wikis and we will soon start an A/B test on our pilot wikis. This module will only display on the Newcomer Homepage if communities decide to utilize it, so learn how to configure the Community Updates module, or share your thoughts on the project's talk page.

One design concept aimed to increase constructive activation

Constructive activation experimentation

After showcasing early design ideas at Wikimania, we conducted user testing of design prototypes. We now aim to engage communities in further discussions and plan to run a targeted experiment, presenting a structured task within the reading view to logged-in new account holders with zero edits.

Community Configuration

This Community Configuration extension was developed to help communities customize wiki features to meet their unique needs. The Growth team is now helping other Wikimedia Foundation teams make their products configurable:

• The Moderation Tools team now provides Community Configuration for Automoderator. (T365046)
• Certain Babel extension settings will be configurable soon. (T328171)

Future work

As part of the Growth team annual plan, we will continue to investigate ways to increase constructive activation on mobile, while also working with Data Products to move forward A/B testing functionality via the Metrics Platform.

Community events

• Growth team members presented Community Configuration: Shaping On-Wiki Functionality Together at Wikimania (slides). The session recording is available to watch on YouTube. This session provided an update on the Community Configuration project and introduced details about the upcoming features that communities will soon be able to configure. Representatives from the Moderator Tools, Editing, Web, and Campaigns teams shared their plans for utilizing Community Configuration in the future. Following these presentations, the WMF Growth team's Benoît Evellin and Martin Urbanec answered audience questions.
• Habib Mhenni gave a presentation of how mentorship works at WikiIndaba 2024. The recording is available.

Stay informed

Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work. If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

Trizek_(WMF), 15:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I have given a freeform response and explained why I won't be answering the questionnaire. Hope all goes well with the research! HLHJ (talk) 00:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: Discussion

Wikipedia editing mostly appeals to people who don't much care about credit or status

You raised an interesting point. I don't know how much you listen to podcasts, but the latest episode of Decoding the Gurus (Supplementary Material 18: The Clown Car Cometh) addresses the opposite problem, people who care so much about credit and status that they have willingly sacrificed free inquiry in favor of boot licking and lapdogging to generate a kind of artificial status climbing machine. They do this by taking "credit" for promoting the ideas of people at the top of a hierarchy, and therefore climb to favor and higher status by promoting the ideas of people who have power rather than people who have ideas based on knowledge. The host of the show made an even more fascinating point in this regard, noting that this is a return to the kind of pseudo-intellectualism of the Middle Ages, pre-Enlightenment, where the people who were in the closest circles to the King depended on his good graces, and therefore subsumed the quest for truth to the wishes of the King. This idea seems to re-emerge every now and then. I recall E. M. Forster making it a part of the plot of The Machine Stops, such that people who questioned their existence and searched for first-hand ideas that deviated from the status quo were dismissed as crazy, because the "machine" (same function as the King in the previous example) already had the answers, so the questions weren't needed. Have a great weekend. Viriditas (talk) 10:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I was unkind; credit and status do legitimately matter to anyone trying to accomplish social goals, and keeping Wikipedia going is a social goal.

I'm not sure I'd say the Middle Ages were anti-intellectual; Scholasticism, for instance, was spectacularly, acrobatically intellectual. Despite the impression given by that article, this wasn't only what we'd now call the social sciences; many of the works translated by the Toledo School of Translators were on clearly STEM subjects, and lead to technological innovations like the invention of eyeglasses, which was widely lauded by contemporaries. I think it's more that basic research seldom thrives under authoritarian governments, and that there wasn't much economic surplus for supporting intellectual endeavors. People with spare time, who live in fairly societies which institutionalize individual liberties (at least for them) are those who engage in the most intellectual activity.

The Middle Ages definitely disapproved of flatterers; the ideal courtier was not a flatterer, and the ideal monarch had no time for flatterers. King Canute and the tide is a medieval story. Actually, I can't think of a culture without norms against flattery and yes-folk. I think there are economic factors in the repeated waves of concerns about flattery (I can give historic examples), and we are basically looking at the ways in which shifting incentives affect the uses of social skills and non-social skills. Flattery and designing addictive platforms are done from similar motivations. All societies, and most especially all efforts at social reform, need both skillsets.

I did go read the fulltext of The Machine Stops; thank you, I hadn't read it before. It's very well-written. Like any short story, more an idea than a world, but it's aged well. The Machine does not of course respond to flattery or sympathy, so it hardly encourages them. There are problems with stories where technology is tremendously useful and reliable (because the engineers in this world were very good), but society has a technological single point of failure (because the engineers in this world were all idiots) and when it fails, no-one can remember how to fix it (because the author personally couldn't replace a lightswitch), and the results are catastrophic (because no-one in this world can design an obvious fail-safe or a contingency plan), and the only recovery plan involves vaguely medieval tech (because the author wrongly thinks they understand that). They are worse if the story tries to be about the technology, rather than just using the implausible tech to say something about society. But this one is focussing on the social effects, and leaving the Machine in the background, so it works. HLHJ (talk) 02:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § Propose to create page of block discussion in noticeboards

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § Propose to create page of block discussion in noticeboards. JPPEDRA2 ^{why not?} 21:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

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New users required to cite sources when creating an article

The VP thread had been archived by the time I was able to add to it again. Your observations and ideas are valuable, they point out where the information train gets derailed. There are however many misconceptions about the policy at WP:CITE and moving new articles to draft which only users with access to the triage tools (called Page Curation) will understand, and some sweeping statements on that thread are not helpful as long-time empirical evidence totally contradicts them. For example, the 'citation needed' tag has no effect at all other than to place the article in the backlog of 100s of thousands of pages needing citations and other important attention where it will likely remain unaddressed, sometimes for years. There are over 71,000 articles in CAT:ALS alone. New Page Patrollers only draftify when absolutely necessary (e.g. no sources at all); you can see the full extent of the knowledge required for patrollers at WP:NPP. Draftifying is one of the most infrequently used solutions in their toolbox.

I designed the current UI and functions for the 'move to draft' operation specifically to provide not only canned reasons for the move, but also with scope for elaboration and help for the creator. The script for its complex functions and additional input was provided by MPGuy2824. The template was deployed after discussion by several of the most experienced New Page Patrollers and coordinators.

Move to draft tool

Although it might not need to be written into policy, the only way to reduce both the backlogs at New Page Patrol and the maintenance categories is indeed to insist that sources are included at the moment of creation (or even registration) with friendly advice to do so - while providing help templates on article layout without discouraging genuine new users - before the article even reaches the New Page Feed. We're working on it. 04:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Kudpung! Nice to talk to you again, I was also disappointed to see that that thread had been archived. I did get invited to join the NPP years ago but didn't as I don't think I'd be very good at it (I am insanely slow at recent-changes patrolling and AfC); perhaps that was a bad call and I should have tried it. Thank you very much for all the info.

I have found "citation needed" tags useful when placed on hard-to-cite recent additions, or on old additions when the tagging editor really doesn't think it is citable and is likely to delete it if it doesn't get cited by someone else. For new editors especially, the tag provides an entry point to information about how to cite. Of course, citing the content is always superior to tagging it, and fixing is better than templating articles. I think a lot of our cn backlog is caused by frivolous tagging of sound content, which is counter to policy. Unfortunately many editors think all content has to be cited or tagged "cn". I sometimes add frivolous cns to sound content I do not wish to challenge just because I have no other way of marking off uncited content from following cited content. I shall think some more about how to make tagging more targetted.

The article I created which was move to draft was moved by an older deprecated version of the script which perhaps didn't warn the operator that the page had been edited within the last half-hour, and which did not give any reason beyond "Not ready for mainspace, incubate in draftspace". Does your tool give a more detailed tickbox-derived reason in the edit summary? I did rather feel I'd gone off the tracks as far as further information went; since the page was moved without creating a redirect, there wasn't even a "challenge" button. I'd have been much happier with a tool which gave an edit summary which linked to the criterion for speedy deletion.

The WP:Draftify proceedure also includes nominating the article for speedy deletion, which I think implies that an article which can't be speedy-deleted can't be draftified. It makes sense to me that draftification be used for articles that would get deleted if challenged, but are salvagable with a bit of additional work. But the reasons in the UI don't seem to align with the criteria for speedy deletion, which means that in practice it could act as a backdoor to deletion. With the advent of Large Language Models, adding some reasons like "cites multiple non-existent sources" might be useful; I see Wikipedia:Drafts#Moving articles to draftspace already lists "The article consists of machine-generated text, such as an unedited machine translation or the output of a large language model"

I'm at risk of plunging into topics inappropriate for my talk page, so I'll cut the rest of this until I understand better. HLHJ (talk) 04:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The Draftification UI and script fully automates all the notifications as well as providing a canned selection of the most common reasons for draftifying, plus a field for further elaboration. While designed to be easy on the UX of the patroller, it is not intended to be used by inexperienced users or non-authorised patrollers. "But the reasons in the UI don't seem to align with the criteria for speedy deletion, which means that in practice it could act as a backdoor to deletion" – It does not contain any options for deletion, hence draftification can never be used as a backdoor route to deletion and no authorised patroller has that in mind when using it. There are plenty of methods for deletion in the NPPers Page Curation arsenal without using draftification and waiting 6 months for WP:G13. They are part of the other mini interfaces in the Page Curation toolset which contain dozens of policy-based CSD criteria plus PROD and AfD as well as a whole host of semi-automated tasks for processing new pages.

NPP is essentially triage (50 years ago in the army I was a CASEVAC trainer), patrollers are not expected to stop and do any fixes that are the responsibility of the creator (other than perhaps catch a typo on-the-fly) but they have the opportunity to inform the creator of any critically missing elements. The 'cn' tag is not one that is generally used by patrollers because it is not in their remit - there is a choice of specific page top banners for that and other situations. Indeed, patrollers don't have time to read an article in it's entirety (all this is explained at WP:NPP). One user's ...if retention is the goal, then we should do more inline tagging... on the VP thread was rather poor advice despite their very long tenure on WP - there are surprisingly many veterans who comment everywhere NPP and draftification it but still don't fully understand it. Such tags are usually inserted by readers or other editors - the point being that anyone adding such a tag could just as easily look for a source themselves if they were sufficiently motivated.

The bottom line is that while (re)designing a tool for draftification or any other process, the effort in web based UI design is to KISS it like I did with this draftification thing - something that newer generations of web devs don't appear to have learned and why so many of our Wikipedia processes are totally baffling to newcomers; the design of these processes isn't the remit of the WMF anyway, unless there is significant demand from other WMF projects that use the same system, but NPP/Page Curation is pretty unique to en.Wiki). I think you should learn what you can or join the NPPSCHOOL I created 12 years ago (I don't teach there any more), give NPP a try, and apply here - NPP needs all the help it can get. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, Kudpung, I really haven't understood; doesn't "draftify" mean "speedy-delete the article but put a copy in the draftspace, with appropriate notifications"? HLHJ (talk) 19:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

lol Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, Kudpung, I'm still confused. I may be in the wrong, but I don't know why. My impression of the triage is:

1. This article cannot possibly be made into an acceptable mainspace article. It is about a topic which will never become notable, or similar
2. This article is worse than no article (was, perhaps, created by a LLM or is riddled with errors), but a useful article could be made on this topic
3. This article is not acceptable on procedural ground (say, because of a creator COI, or because the topic is not yet notable) but could be converted into a useful article
4. This article is imperfect but can stay in the mainspace and be improved

I'm confused because the tool UI doesn't seem compatible with our deletion rules. Our speedy-delete criteria, for instance, clearly do not allow articles to be speedy-deleted on grounds of poor but comprehensible English. Such English fits in class four, and is more likely to be improved in the mainspace than in the draftspace, especially if the creating editor is not a native speaker or is a native speaker of a nonstandard dialect. But the tool UI clearly lists such English as a reason for draftifying, and if the editor doesn't fix then the draft would be deleted. HLHJ (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

One assumes/one hopes that once an article is in draft space that there are thousands of editors out there just waiting to pounce on a new draft and spend hours repairing it, adding the correct linguistic touch, and making it fit for mainspace rather than working on their own creations or on articles in their own sphere of interest. At the end of the day however, the creator has been notified and given 6 months opportunity to do something about it. The final check and balance is that only an admin can do the physical deletion. Draftification is not speedy deletion: Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13. QED Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, . I have done that, at least once. We need more editors.

If I've got this right, draftification involves

1. moving the page from the mainspace into the draftspace
2. requesting speedy deletion of the redirect from mainspace into draftspace (implying that all earlier versions of the mainspace article meet the speedy deletion criteria, since that is a speedy deletion criterion)
3. notifying

If I nominated an article for speedy deletion on ground of poor English, I'd get refused, and told to RTFM. If I draftified it on the same grounds, and the creator does not manage to get it perfected in the draftspace (I don't know what proportion this is), then the draft is eventually deleted under speedy deletion criterion G13. I've thus speedy-deleted an article that doesn't meet the speedy-deletion criteria. This seems like a defacto back door, though I'm sure it isn't intended as such and NPPatrollers are not going about trying to delete articles by hook or by crook, so perhaps more an unintended backroute than a backdoor. HLHJ (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right that New Page Patrollers do not 'try' to delete anything by hook or crook or any other method. Draftification is not speedy deletion nor ever was, nor is it a backroute or a de facto backdoor. Back in the day, I worked a lot at AfC as well as developing NPP (It may or may not surprise you but I was one of the original initiators of the creation of the Draft namespace back in 2013). I still recommend you read up on finding drafts and NPP (or even trying your hand at it) before jumping to conclusions - if you require statistics to confirm or allay your concerns, the stats are thataway. Let me know how you get on. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:08, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Please cite your sources

Can you add a source to the use of this song in a game? You added the unreferenced claims here (uses in 2010 Shangai and in Avatar TV series...). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't actually add the content about use in a game or the 2010 Shanghai Expo opening ceremony; I just moved it. As I recall, references to performances of the song were scattered across the whole article, and I put them in a section together and sorted them by genre. I've sourced the Avatar TV series statement; see edit comment. I thought the other statements are likely to be true and citable, so I did not remove or challenge them. If you think them unlikely to be true, or can't find citations, by all means remove them. A Mandarin speaker might be able to find sources on the Expo performance, if there are no English ones.

Sorry not to be more helpful. I was cleaning up the article after a removal of references to it being used as a pro-democracy protest song; I've been slowly going through a set of similar problematic edits (help welcome). I went a bit beyond and reorganized the content for readability. But I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of its performances, I'm afraid, nor much interest in them. HLHJ (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Greetings of the season

~ ~ ~ Greetings of the season ~ ~ ~

Hello HLHJ: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Spread the love; use {{subst:User:Dustfreeworld/Xmas3}} to send this message.

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 22:46, 25 December 2024 (UTC)