User talk:Alastair Haines

Luise Auguste Wilhelmine Amalie von Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Königin von Preussen
"The only real man in Prussia."
— widely attrib. to Napoléon
La reine de Prusse est réellement charmante; elle est pleine de coquetterie pour moi; mais n'en sois point jalouse: je suis une toile cirée sur laquelle tout cela ne fait que glisser. Il m'en coûterait trop cher pour faire le galant.
— letter, signed Napoléon Bonaparte, 9 July 1807

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Israelian Hebrew

If you're fast enough (5 days) to add more inline-citations, I'd say this one deserves to be on the front page for DYK. I had never even heard of "Israelian Hebrew" before (thought you were writing bad English, that's what got my attention on recent changes). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Song of Songs

Thank you for the work done on this page. It's more complete and looks tidier.

Keep up the good work! --Dampinograaf (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Universality of patriarchy

BTW, the correct forum for overturning an AfD discussion is Wikipedia:Deletion review, per Wikipedia:Deletion policy, not unilaterally restoring the page yourself. This is true regardless of the topic-ban issue. Kaldari (talk) 04:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for talking, I can grant you your point in general terms, and hope you can grant in general terms that dispute resolution starts with one-to-one discussion, like this, not with appealing to processes.

Our current dispute concerns documentation of the evidence for the universality of patriarchy, which has been differently resolved, by several discussion to be:

1. documented elsewhere than the patriarchy article, in a template;
2. documented elsewhere than a template, in its own article;
3. and, most recently, merged back into the patriarchy article.

My own original personal preference is exactly in line with the most recent proposal. My current preference is for a separate article, but it's not even strong enough to warrent raising. The point is, the discussions want the information somewhere. Where is it to be? If at patriarchy, why delete it from there? If not at patriarchy, why delete it from UoP? If you must be the one to post it, where and when will you do that? Alastair Haines (talk) 05:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Alastair. Could you indicate where the consensus is that you mention in this edit-summary. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 18:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• I believe he's talking about the original forking of the article half a year ago. Since then there was an AfD with consensus to merge back into patriarchy. You may also be interested in Alastair's other recent efforts to circumvent the deletion process. Kaldari (talk) 20:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Kaldari is not being full and frank with you, John, the discussion that demonstrates consensus for creating the article is here.

See below for why I can have no part in resolving this. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, please take a look at Alastair's evidence. Kaldari (talk) 16:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yup, very clear mandate for the article, involving a lot of reliable sources, editors and constructive discussion. Bongomatic's comment is representative. Calathan, Bongo, S Marshall, Citius Altius, Buster7 and myself took some time swinging backward and forwards but came to the conclusion that the template needed expansion and upgrade into an article, so the template could be deleted as made redundant by the article.

I'll be restoring and expanding the article as per consensus; and I remind Kaldari that he really needs to stop being obstructive and resisting consensus regarding a topic he's obviously ideologically opposed to. Attempting censorship like that is rather unWikipedian I would think. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:14, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

ANI

You're being discussed here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Legal_threats_and_personal_attack --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Neil, yes, really these people should know better than making personal attacks and threats against me. It looks very bad for them. Rather crude and unWikipedian attempts at intimidation and attempting to "chill" my fair criticism ... and provision of reliable sources, for goodness sake. It'll all blow over soon enough. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Disruption, Legal threats, etc

Some of your recent comments ([1] [2]) could be interpreted as legal threats, if you could clarify or reword exactly what your intention is, it would be appreciated. Keep in mind WP:NLT when doing so. This is in reference to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive742#Legal threats and personal attack. Prodego ^talk 16:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Naturally, the questions I'm being invited to comment on are based on even less substance than similar earlier irresponsible sensationalism.

Thanks, however, for the politely worded "please explain": a great improvement on previous incidents of this sort of thing.

I'm sorry, but I will be unavailable for comment until further notice, and that will be some time away, a very good time away, as will be understood by reading the following.

I can only hope that more common sense and common decency prevails in the current discussions than those of the past. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please treat this page with respect

I am logging out of Wiki for I don't know how long.

I plan to be back.

I will be checking email from time to time. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Alastair, my heart goes out to you and your wife. There are no words for this. Wim --Crusio (talk) 07:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

God bless you Sir! 124.179.27.50 (talk) 07:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

[...] (1 minute). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

May her soul unite with the Almighty. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A tragedy. Words fail me and my condolences go out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

My condolences Alastair. I will pray for you and your family. MBisanz ^talk 21:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

My condolences Alastair. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

What an absolute bugger, mate. From a Dad who went through something lesser, though similar, and now has two annoying ticks, hang in there, treasure the moments of what you had, breath deep, seek support, support each other, there will be bad times, though know that time heals, gives you strength, and does bring hope fresh again. Travel safely. billinghurst (talk) 2009-12-10T09:20:31

I'm so sorry. Please accept my sincerest condolences. Guettarda (talk) 03:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm so sorry to hear about your tragic loss. May the Lord bring comfort to you and your wife. Dovi (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Condolences to you and your family. Mathsci (talk) 11:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Requiescat in pace & peace to the family. Skier Dude (talk) 06:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

God's peace be with you and yours, and with all who suffer such losses. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

My deepest condolences Alastair, I have no words for your loss. My thoughts are with you and your wife--Cailil ^talk 23:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Continued prayers and condolences...--Buster7 (talk) 11:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Just stumbled across your user page. Your poem is stunning...a fitting tribute to your beautiful girl. May the God of all comfort grant you grace and peace and patience till you can see Sarah again. Kyriosity (talk) 00:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your note on my talk page, Alastair. Only I'm a sister rather than a brother. ;-) Kyriosity (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Mangalorean Catholics

An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Mangalorean Catholics. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mangalorean Catholics. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.

Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:15, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for this courtesy notification, Mr Bot. I'm delighted to see that the excellent work a friend did on that article survived the AfD. I am not in the least surprised, however. It's one of the best articles I've seen at Wiki. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

30 000th edit

Sorry for my silence, I guess you are very busy, I am too. I do not know what to say. You wrote: "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away". Anything else to add. In last time I had created several articles larger than usually (minuscules 536-545, Peter P. Dubrovsky, Daniel Gotthilf Moldenhawer, Plain Introduction, etc.). With regards. It was my 30 000 edit on en-wiki. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Sydney meetup

It's been a while since the wiki folk of Sydney had the chance to meetup - and there's quite a lot going on. If you've never been to a meetup before, you're especially welcome, and if you're an old hand, then please do make an effort to touch base :-) You can sign up here, or drop a note on my talk page if you have any questions or anything - hope to see you there! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Creation according to Genesis

Hi Alastair, welcome back! I've edited your edits to the lead to this article - I believe the modern view is pretty much that creation ex nihilo is not the intention of the original authors, although of course it became the interpretation of the early Churtch under the influence of the great Philo of Alexandria. Also I deleted the reference to kulturkampf as being too minor to rate a mention.

The article is the subject of intense dispute, so be prepared for that. PiCo (talk) 07:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have all the academic qualifications to enable you to add a well referenced note in Genesis creation myth on the most accepted interpretation(s) of the historical development of the Genesis Creation texts and their relationship to Mesopotamian myth. Every time I attempt to refer to the links and to give sources my additions are removed by the appropritely named Deadtotruth --Tediouspedant (talk) 22:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Iravan

I not sure how active you are, but if you are active, please take a look at Iravan, an article about a regional deity like Vithoba. I am planning a FAC for Iravan. I know your review and touch can change articles completely like Vithoba changed for the best. Please respond if you are active and let me know if you are willing to take a look. Thanks. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:23, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought the first msg was a reply to this msg. What a coincidence! I thought I would miss my lucky charm (from Vithoba) in Iravan. God bless. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to inform you that Ruhrfisch started his review on Talk:Iravan#Review_comments recently. It would be nice if you may start your improvement edits simultaneously. Thanks. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:28, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Ruhrfisch and Abecdare's PR seems almost done. So I was planning a FAC. I will not nominate the article without taking a look at it. Can you give me a date by which you can take a look at Iravan? Please reply. Thanks. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Happy house hunting! --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 02:11, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Though the word hijras originates in urdu, the group exists atleast in Indian subcontinent with diff. names. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 15:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I am still a little confused what exactly is bothering you. Your modifications to the note and any objectionable parts in the article, would clear my confusion.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, it should be fine once I get back to the text tomorrow. In a very broad way of saying things, what was difficult for me was accepting statements in the Iravan draft that sound fine to express a political PoV in English, but not to provide simple, clear description. It's OK to "go political" at Iravan, but it opens an unnecessary can of worms. Once again, it'll be fine, the language can be modified without needing to remove content directly related to Iravan. Alastair Haines (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not mean to use third gender as a political POV, it is literal translation of the Sanskrit tritiya prakriti or tritiya panthi, used traditionally in Hindu literature calling Hijras "third sex", "neither male nor female" is the intended meaning. Do reword, I have no objections to the removal of third gender. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 03:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything I read tells me hijra are men, not women, and not rare hermaphrodites, with the exception of literature produced by well-known sexual politics lobby groups. We can be spiritual or political and speak in vague terms of something other than normal male and female, but there's a world of difference between that and the extremely well documented and abundant scientific literature on the observable, measurable, physcial aspects of sexual dimorphism in Homo sapiens.

Do we really have enough evidence to assert the Aravani go back to days when Sanskrit was still spoken? Are the Hijra of Pakistan really culturally descendended from mandates provided in the Sanskrit scriptures? I don't think even they argue for such bold claims. I can see one activist has self-published a book claiming to place "third gender" terminology on Sanskrit, but even that notes that references in Hindu scriptures are "rare" and "not widely discussed".

I'll get back to copyediting soon. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Please do not use IAST for Aravan as it creates problem of inconsistency since other names like Mohini, Vishnu, Mahabharata are in English, not IAST. As in Vithoba, I would like to limit IAST usage to the chief names of the deity. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 10:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I like that approach. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

"consummation" is disputed, see The three boons first para. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 10:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Tishani Doshi, Lessons in transformation, The Hindu (Sunday, 25 May 2005) is a rather nice piece of lyrical prose, winningly addressing questions of the ethics of sexuality in India. "No woman will come forward to marry [Aravan] because she knows that what lies waiting for her is the doom of widowhood. So Lord Krishna, taking the form of a beautiful woman, comes down to satisfy the desire of coital bliss." This is Doshi's interpretation, drawn from personal involvement in, and reflection on, the festival, and in the context of larger questions about sexuality in India. It is not an academic analysis of the sense of the text of the story as we have it. If we have evidence of others sharing Doshi's interpretation, we can supply a popular alternative to academic analysis, though it's not, properly speaking, an additional academic PoV.

I'll check the other source, 'cause that might provide new information. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I request to check the main text (non-lead) first, we can sort lead issues/rewrite lead like boons at the end. I removed the quote from the ref for consistency in references. A Google book is linked, with may most of the times give a preview.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Would it make any sense if the first para of Java section is shifted to "Development of the legend"? Please read Talk:Iravan#Review_comments_by_Abecedare about Development section and let me know what do you think about it: merge it with other sections OR keeping it a distinct para. A rewrite of that section is needed in both cases. Maybe topic sentences are needed in the latter option. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Have fun. I am assured that you will organize "Development of legend" properly, but we need to may an editorial decision about keeping the section or merging it with other sections. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Please add all details for references you add like Brockington (1998, p. 26).--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Also for "Sukthankar, "Prolegmonena" to (1933)". Also, can you plz tell me about your editorial decision about "Development of legend"? merge or keep separate? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Please add details for Van Buitenen; The Mahabharata - 1; The Book of the Beginning. Introduction (Authorship and Date). Have wrote my comments on footnotes issue on talk. Please see "Review comments by Abecedare" too. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Hi. Can you please add details like publisher, book name, ISBN for references you added. I have no idea what books you intend to quote. The references which need details are:

• van Buitenen (1973): p. xxiv-xxv.
• Sukthankar, "Prolegmonena" to (1933): p. lxxxvi. Emphasis is original.
• Supomo (1995) (ref. 91) page numbers

Also do you think that the article can be ready for FAC by next Wednesday? I have some free days ahead and intend to nominate it then. Please reply. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

"Regarding the references: van Buitenen, Sukthankar and Supomo are all cited in full in the Bibliography": Confused. I still can't see the references, AL. Can you please put them in Bibliography too (also the page numbers in ref 91 are needed)?

About next Wed FAC, I want to finish a FAC by first week of May, after which I am expecting to be busy in real life. "I haven't quite finished with copyediting or expanding a little on Tamil versions of the Mbh. But I don't think my work there is necessary for FA, and can continue, during and after the FA process anyway.": I disagree with that. Your work is necessary and invaluable for Iravan, without which I don't think Iravan will make the FA cut. I am rewriting the lead a little to accommodate Javanese traditions. Feel free to add or remove any stuff from rewrite. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

About the my usage of Haines on Iravan talk: I did mean to offend you. I am extremely sorry if I have. I was unaware of the surname thing, AL (I will use Alastair on other talks, AL will confuse others, if it OK with you?). Things are different culturally in India, where you do not have the Western first name concept in colleagues and even friends may not necessarily use first names. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I was searching for van Buitenen. I removing van from the reference. If van is needed, then in references part the last name should be listed as van Buitenen, instead of Buitenen alone. Supomo page numbers are missing.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not my article alone, it's your article too. Please choose the best option yourself, as I am not aware of the right academic usage of van and your knowledge in this issue exceeds mine. Whatever you decide, will remain in the article. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Since all three use "Buitenen, J. A. B. van", let us keep it that way. What you do think? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, I like it, 'cause it's my own preference. But! I suspect the "van" at the end isn't strictly APA Style, the punctuation and ordering are that. I suspect the Aust Nat Lib head librarian just thinks the way I do. But, I'm glad I can show a reliable source of bibliographic citation. Much better we follow a published example, than just my own explanation of my personal style.

I think we have an answer. :) I'll get back to the copyediting. Alastair Haines (talk) 12:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Good research, AL. I would never done for so much hard work for just a name. Sounds good. Page numbers for Supomo (1995) (ref. 91) remain. To track of what sections you have seen and have already pointed the problems in it, I suggest keeping the contents table as a checklist. Also, it will let me know what sections I should not spoil. ;)--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

ROFL! Thanks for that, friend!

You give me such great research, and such nice text to work with: full of content and very clear!

So far, I've covered all sections down to Mahabharata, and the Javanese section.

I also fiddled with the See also section.

I have two large sections to cover: Tamil legends and Worship.

I have worked on the early parts of both of those, and maybe random bits and pieces in those sections.

I plan to work through the Tamil section next, maybe close to all the way at one sitting.

After that I'll do the Worship section.

I have already scanned both sections and I was very pleased with the neutral and sourced way you handled potentially controversial material.

We'll see how we go.

By the way, you didn't like the maps showing States and Districts? Could we use one of them? We could also colour a version of the District map. One colour for Draupadi, another for Kuttantavar. Alastair Haines (talk) 13:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The images were creating blank spaces in the article, so I removed them. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I will check with TheMandarin, if he has the time to create a Inkspace pic of the 32 temples' location in Tamil Nadu. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

AL, instead of removing red links, I suggest forming stubs saying that the village X is in Y district and has an important Aravan temple. We have the ref. Also, there is some policy on wikipedia (can't remb. the link) that says all settlements are notable. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I making minor changes to parts you copyedited where the meaning is diff after what is intended. Please check my changes and reword, if necessary.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

TheMandarin has agreed to create a map of the temples, that will add meaning to the temple list. Please comment what the villages issue and check my minor changes. I am removing all other links to villages, except the 32 temples. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Message for you on Iravan talk. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Very nice wording of the patron sentence. Why didn't you put in the mainspace before. Moved it to the article. Draupadi rituals also looks good. I think only Boons and Kuttantavar rituals remain to be perfected. At last, Iravan is looking more like a FA. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Found one more explicit connection between Aravan and hijras. See Talk:Iravan#First_paragraph_of_lead--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

""heroic" self-mutilation and self-decapitation before the Goddess" In this sentence, the g is capitalized to denote the general monotheistic concept of Shaktism of the Supreme Goddess and her forms. "the goddess" in the preceding sentence to the particular goddess Kali.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I noticed you created Korravai (while checking my watchlist I saw you adding the link on Chhinnamasta, missed it on Iravan). We can work on it together - if it's OK with you - after Iravan's copyedit is complete and is nominated on FAC. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I am going to be busier in first week of May, so need sort Iravan by then. Korravai expansion can along with a parallel FAC (any way FAC get comments on a daily basis). It will be good if Iravan can be nominated on Wed as a FAC atleast lasts a fortnight. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible for you to take a look at the last section of Kuttantar cult today, so that the article can be nominated today. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

No sorry between friends, Al. I should the one to thank you for your co-operation. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:29, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

AL, just wanted to check if you have completed Kuttantavar cult rituals section? I see many edits on Iravan by you, so I assumed it may be complete, but your prose standards are much higher than mine. so wanted to confirm if you have reached the end of the section. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:47, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

okie dokie, AL. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

"At noon his chariot turns north, facing the ceremonial Kurukshetra battle-field, a symbolic gesture representing both his kalappali and his entry onto the battlefield to die at the hands of Alambusha" is not right. Turning to North: means kalapali part, and second turn to face the battlefield means entry in it. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Since, today is an auspicious Hindu festive day and your copyedit is over, I am nominating Iravan for FA now before this day passes here in India. Thanks a lot, AL. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

plz keep an eye on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iravan/archive1, AL. Great job and Good night. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of List of ARC religion journals

The article List of ARC religion journals has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

does not meet WP:GNG

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{dated prod}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Amaher (talk) 10:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

ARC religion journals list

Hi, I apologise if I was a bit quick to reach for the delete button. I just couldn't see the point of mirroring the ARC's journal lists here since it can easily be downloaded from their website. It just seemed a bit random. Also, this is the type of thing that goes out of date - will anyone be around to update it next year? Anyway it appears you have broader intentions for this list so i'm happy for it to stay up --Amaher (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Forgive me for butting in, but this was actually a point that I was concerned about. I know that Thompson ISI does not allow third parties to make lists of journals indicating their impact factors, claiming this violates their copyright. The Australian agency that produced these lists is probably less concerned about this than a commercial enterprise, but still, aren't these lists copyrighted? I haven't had time to check, but perhaps either one of you has. Also, I think Amaher has a point that the lists can be downloaded elsewhere, is it necessary to mirror them here? Unless you intend to make more out of this, otherwise the lists on their original site could just be used as sources. BTW, these lists are also linked/listed somewhere in the WikiProject Academic Journals. If I find a moment, I'll try to dig out the link. --Crusio (talk) 05:51, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Your comments are most welcome.

The benefit of listing within Wiki, as I see it, is the opportunity to internally link and for journal names to come up in internal searches.

I suspect, but cannot guarantee, that copyright should not be an issue, since taxpayer funded information is regularly public domain. Indeed, the academic body, under whose supervision I work, has uploaded a copy of the list to their own site, and I'd be very surprised if they were alone in doing so. Thompson, on the other hand, seem right to me to seek legal protection for the costly work of producing the service of information they ask the academic community to share with them.

But, my opinions are inexpert and worthless, our questions are very likely to have answers in reliable sources. The bottom line is, I'd be content were we to move the list to WP:Academic Journals. That's probably its natural home, and as part of a complete listing of the ARC rankings, should copyright (or permission) allow us fair use for the convenience of contributors to that Wikiproject.

Alastair Haines (talk) 06:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

• You're most probably right about the copyright (and I didn't intend to criticize Thompson, it's stuff they produced and they're entitled to charge for that, of course). Anyway, here are links to the list in the project space. --Crusio (talk) 06:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Of course you meant no criticism of Thompson, I was only clarifying for third parties to our discussion. Sorry it came across that way. I think you are most probably right too. In my ignorance, I was unaware that John had already done this work more comprehensively.

I think what I must apply myself to is merging the list we are discussing with my hopeless early attempt at List of theology journals. I think there is a practical advantage in having a list like this in ordinary mainspace, in that not all new users will find WP:Academic Journals particularly quickly. However, I have had theological students find they like the vision of starting articles on theological journals they use or aspire to contributing to, because they've seen that List, even in its sketchy form.

Big picture issues as I see it: people reading religion articles may want to know more about journals who've published writers an article cites in support of various ideas. Articles on those journals will be very helpful for serious readers. What about the usefulness of having a Bibliographic List like the above in mainspace? I would contend that WP:AJ should consider providing a set of lists classified and titled by objectively defined "fields of research", and selected on the basis of similar objective criteria like impact factor or ARC rank. That would aid non-project members in finding WP:AJ or in assisting it whether they join or not. It would also aid people in all manner of WP space discussions in having easy access to some basic objective criteria, already examined by responsible project members. Ordinary readers can also benefit, in most cases, a few mouse clicks could take them to a journal's homepage, and a wealth of information. The listS could work as a navigation tool for people looking for serious sources in any subject area.

Nothing I'm suggesting is likely to be new to you, Wim. You and others have been more active and involved with WP:AJ than I ever have been. I trust the integrity, wisdom and even creativity of you who lead by example there. Regarding this list, I surrender any choice in the matter to the better judgement of people like yourself, Dave and John. Regarding Adamantius, however, please forgive me holding out. I think there are good reasons the Adamantius (journal) should, for the forseeable future, exist only as a redirect to an brief article on the group who publish it. I think we have reliable evidence it is a journal that calls itself (or started out as) a newsletter, rather than a newsletter that masquerades as a journal.

To repeat, my bottom line is that I express no further opinion regarding Lists of journals and will co-operate with any decisions you or others at WP:AJ recommend. I will also co-operate with any decision regarding Adamantius; however, I would appreciate it, that if you decide the Italian Origen Group should not be documented, that you'd also summarise the evidence I've provided in support of the notability of that Group, albeit with your reasons for rejecting that evidence.

I hope that's sufficient to ensure we can progress with no further consumption of time that can be used elsewhere.

Best regards Alastair Haines (talk) 07:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Thompson ISI will have a problem with it since this list does not cite ISI impact factors. In fact the whole point of the ARC compiling these lists is that they are trying to move away from IFs entirely - just as the NHMRC have already done ( see here for their explanation). Cheers, --Amaher (talk) 10:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

i misread the above - but the IF article may be of general interest to you.--Amaher (talk) 11:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It's of great interest to me, at least Amaher, thank you! It might not be new to Wim, who is much more abreast of the issues than I. Thanks for that work. Great find, and I one for am now wiser ... and intrigued! :) Alastair Haines (talk) 04:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• I have a pretty large collection of IF-related articles, but I don't think I had this one yet. It's one of my projects to some day try to get the impact factor article up to GA status and this might be a useful source. Thanks! --Crusio (talk) 06:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The ARC journal lists are not in the public domain, or covered by a permissive license (yet). It is covered by Crown copyright, and permission is only granted to redistribute it in its original form[3], however there are pushes to change this, both from on top[4], and elsewhere. John Lamp's ERA journal listings are well known by all, and there haven't been any take down requests. I'm not particularly keen on the List of ARC religion journals page, as there are many other journal lists compiled by govt's in other countries, but I may warm to it after a bit of consideration. A "comparison of religion journals" page would be more neutral (geographically-speaking) and could include "ARC ranking" as a column. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back

Dear friend. Welcome back. Time heals and memories remain. Knowing you (albeit online), I am sure you have come out stronger out of this ordeal with increased faith. Its nice to see you back active on Wikipedia and doing something you are best at: improving wiki and sharing your knowledge. --Anish (talk) 04:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Anish! I think of you every time I log in to Wikipedia (and many other times too). Although you haven't asked, very much at the top of my mind is getting back to Karma in Jainism, unless it is already an FA. And that is only a little of what I hope we will be able to achieve together as we have opportunity. I had to return my copy of Dundas to a library, but I'll be getting it out again soon enough, and other books also. Please expect an email from me shortly, my apologies that your last is still unanswered. Alastair Haines (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I did not remind you because I knew that Karma in Jainism would be on your mind and you will go all out for it when you are ready. No, its not yet FA as it requires your special touch. Considering what you have gone through, no apologies are required (esp. between friends). I am simply glad that you have bounced back.--Anish (talk) 05:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Award

Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Misunderstanding understood

Alastair Haines no apology necessary, you're understanding is much closer to 100% and I have quite a bit of practice in being unclear :) The reason I think it's an appropriate title is simply because that's what the sources call it, you actually kind of made my point for me by pointing out Frye's disagreement with the simple creation myth assertion applying to Genesis. If other sources weren't calling it a simple creation myth he'd sound pretty weird arguing his point to a field that already agreed with him. Anynobody(?) 05:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Alastair Haines. You have new messages at John Vandenberg's talk page.
Message added 10:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Asking little is my middle name, pleasant surprises have not, however, been my experience in certain cases.

When people remove reliable sources from the encyclopedia and persevere with personal attacks, speculating about motives of editors, we should all be troubled.

I intend to restore nearly all material in certain articles, removed prior to and since a certain ArbCom, and that is almost certain to be obstructed.

Maintenance like this should not be time consuming (my time is limited also), since all text is reliably sourced, verifiable, even uncontroversial in the literature and has also been supported by other Wikipedia editors.

However, it is naive to think that this is how things will progress, especially given events of the past.

I will take your advice and procede first via email.

Alastair Haines (talk) 12:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Book Suggestion

You may enjoy Empires of the Word. Check it out.EGMichaels (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes! How well you know me. A good excuse to take a night or two off from Wikipedia. Will read. ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Mediation Case

A request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Genesis Creation Myth has been filed with the Mediation Committee (MedCom). You have been named as a party in this request. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Genesis Creation Myth and then indicate in the "Party agreement" section whether you would agree to participate in the mediation or not.

Mediation is a process where a group of editors in disagreement over matters of article content are guided through discussing the issues of the dispute (and towards developing a resolution) by an uninvolved editor experienced with handling disputes (the mediator). The process is voluntary and is designed for parties who disagree in good faith and who share a common desire to resolve their differences. Further information on the MedCom is at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee; the policy the Committee will work by whilst handling your dispute is at Wikipedia:Mediation Committee/Policy; further information on Wikipedia's policy on resolving disagreements is at Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.

If you would be willing to participate in the mediation of this dispute but wish for its scope to be adjusted then you may propose on the case talk page amendments or additions to the list of issues to be mediated. Any queries or concerns that you have may be directed to an active mediator of the Committee or by e-mailing the MedCom's private mailing list (click here for details).

Please indicate on the case page your agreement to participate in the mediation within seven days of the request's submission.

Thank you, Weaponbb7 (talk)

Treatment of sources at Jehovah's Witnesses

You seem to be indulging in a lot of hurrumphing and muttering over sources at Jehovah's Witnesses. It's not clear what point you're trying to make in highlighting specific words within those sources. If you have an issue to raise, then do so on the article talk page. LTSally (talk) 07:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello

Nice to meet you as well, God bless from the UK. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Alastair Haines RfAr 2

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Alastair Haines 2 and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Kaldari (talk) 19:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Self reverting

So... I was just wondering. If you revert yourself 4 times in a 24 period, can you get blocked for 3RR? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:32, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you got an answer to your question but, no, self-reverting is not counted against the 3RR. See here. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:21, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

He he, thanks Bill, but this was rather a nice joke between Lisa and I.

Your generosity in stopping to post is appreciated. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I just happened to find you because you are involved in an arbitration at the same time I was (although the one I was involved in, Christ myth theory, was denied). At any rate, I was looking over your resume on you user page and I was quite impressed. Is there something, like brain surgery or astrophysics, that you can't do?  :) Although you are probably very busy, I'd like to invite you to visit the Christ myth theory article when you get the chance. Have a nice day. Oh, one more thing. I see that you are "down under". What time is it there right now? I live in Texas, USA, and it's about 2:40 PM here. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

6:16 AM, friend. Yes, I'll have a look at that article. If there are any difficult editors there, it will be an interesting experiment to see how they react to this non–brain surgeon, non-astrophysicist, would be poet.

Have a BIG day Texan friend.

PS I think if ArbCom voted for restrictions on my User Page, some people might not take such offense at me. ;) Just a theory. Alastair Haines (talk) 20:21, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Alastair Haines 2

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Alastair Haines 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Alastair Haines 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 01:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The evidence you have presented is above the word limit. Could you trim it down a bit? We usually give a little leeway past the 1000 word mark so it would be appreciated if you could get it down around there. Thanks, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 18:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I happened to go through that arbitration request and while I do not feel qualified to make my section there due to not being personally involved with those issues, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you for being patient with such obvious attempts to bully and gag you. Wwmargera (talk) 19:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear Wwmargera, thank you so much for taking the trouble to encourage me in this way.

Indeed, do not fear, I will be inviting a lot more Wikipedians and others to get involved to scrutinise the processes.

It's an ideal opportunity to show the community how even ArbCom itself can correct mistakes it has made, and keep making Wiki a better and better place.

Alastair Haines (talk) 09:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

EPIC DATE

Hi,Alastair Haines! on mahabharata talk page,in comaparative mythology section you refered mahabharata date as 600 bce,How can you say that Mahabharata was composed around 600 B.C,Mahabharata have a lot of references of sarasvati river which dried up by least 1900-1500 B.C.In mahabharata it is given that balaram(brother of krishna) visited many sites along sarasvati river from rann of kutch to plaksha(place near yamunotri) which exactly matches with present Ghaggar-Hakra river geography which was dried up by 1500 B.C atleast.so some part of mahabharta would have been composed by 1500 B.C.

>astronomical dates in mahabharata give hints a period of 1500-3000 B.C for its composition.

>all charactors of mahabharata were known to composers of upnishadas(1000-800 B.C)

it was very old trend to give 600 B.C date for composition of mahabharata because of lack of archaeological facts,but mordern research have shown many new facts.so wikipedia should be updated accordingly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.33.236 (talk) 10:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello, nice to meet you.

I think I made a mistake with the 600 BCE date. I believe some of the most accepted sources give a date of 400 BCE for the earliest surviving parts of the Mahabharata (Mbh).

Please don't misunderstand this. The Mbh is, just like you say, considered by (I think) all scholars to refer to a period a very long time before 400 BCE. But, although they are not the only point of view, scholars believe the Mbh to have been recited over much more than 2,000 years, with new poetic passages being added over that time, and with some being replaced.

I think it is fair to say that scholars are certain that the Mbh itself was around well before 400 BCE, it's just that the whole epic we have now is based on earlier versions, the oldest of which date to about 400 BCE.

In other words, the Mbh is more ancient than 400 BCE, refering to even more ancient times. The 400 BCE date is for the oldest sections of poems that have not had their language and phrasing changed at all since that time.

Kurukshetra War (long ago) -> Spoken stories about the war -> Written records about the war -> Poetry about the war -> Mbh:collection of these and other poems -> Updating of poems and additions -> Translation into Bengali, Tamil, Javanese etc.

The earliest poems that have never been changed are from 400 BC, from the point of view of several very good scholars checking with one another.

As you say, though, the War itself is presented by the text as prior to the drying of the river, so clearly giving us a picture going back to before 1500 BCE. I am really not an expert on the Mbh. I have no personal opinion, except I'm happy to accept what scholars say about the age of the language of the oldest surviving poems within the even more ancient original Mbh traditions. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

very nice explanation Alastair Haines!as you said that mbh may have recited over a period of 2000 yr before 400 B.C,but its first redaction took place in 400 b.c,so i think this information should also be addedd into mahabharata article to avoid any confusion--115.242.127.92 (talk) 19:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Friend, the scholars believe there could have been many redactions prior to 400 BCE. The orginal Mbh traditions are certainly older than 400 BCE. The scholars cannot say how much older, because the oldest redaction that still survives in the current Mbh is about 400 BCE. Scholars admit they are "blind" regarding things they no longer have evidence for: i.e. text from before 400 BCE.

As for how far back the oral traditions go, some scholars do accept that references like that of the river suggest very ancient traditions indeed. But if we are talking about the Mbh itself, it is not clear to scholars just when the first parts of the Mbh were composed, so when they would have been around to be recited: centuries before 400 BCE is quite possible, but millenia? I don't off-hand know any who would say that, but then again, I have not read widely enough yet. When I refered to more than 2,000 years, I meant from say 500 BCE to 2010 CE = 2,500 years.

I am perfectly happy to accept that the Mbh contains information passed on generation to generation over many thousands of years, with the oldest written forms of those traditions coming from about 500 BCE. But I am not a scholar of the Mbh, and so I can't tell you which scholars argue for the point of view you seem to want to document.

• "There exists a great divergence of opinion regarding the historicity of the two Indian epics, namely the Mahabhara and the Ramayana. According to some, everything mentioned in these texts is true to the very letter, while others regard them as mere figments of the imagination. ... The earliest inscriptions available in India date back to the third or fourth century BC. ... all the sites mentioned in these epics bear the same names even today ... I ... discovered ... Painted Grey Ware culture ... at Hastinapura, the key site in the [Mahabharata], dated to a period from about 1100--800 BC." [Emphasis original.]

— BB Lal, "A note on the excavations at Ayodhya with reference to the Mandir–Masjid issue", chapter 9 in Robert Layton, Julian Thomas and Peter G. Stone, Destruction and conservation of cultural property, Volume 41 of One World Archaeology, (Routledge, 2001), p. 117.

What I can say is that BB Lal tells us there is a point of view, undoubtedly a devout Hindu point of view, that the Mbh was written word-for-word before 3000 BCE. At Wikipedia, that Hindu point of view is protected. Wikipedia presents all significant points of view in suitable proportion to one another. The conservative Hindu point of view is obviously significant, but if it is this point of view you wish to document, you can probably do it better than I. Hindu Vivek Kendra provides scholarly sources of the Hindu point of view. One caution, though, friend: I can help defend the place of the Hindu point of view, because Wiki policy protects it, however, this point of view cannot be given WP:UNDUE weight. Hindu archeologists can speak on archeology when they are qualified, however, Wikipedia will not accept religious belief as archeology. If we stick to the scholarly sources, they handle disagreements much more politely than Wikipedia editors often do. Non-Hindu archeologists normally speak respectfully of "traditional views". Wikipedia needs to do the same, all the more so, because many issues regarding the historicity of the Mbh are not settled either way. Wikipedia cannot take sides, it is up to editors like us to report what scholars say: scholars from both sides.

I hope this long post is of some help. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes sir,I understood your points,but i was discussing that it should also be given in mahabharata article that it was existed in another form before 400 b.c or it was orally transfered for centuries before that it will resolve the whole problem.it will also save wikipedia polic of neutrality.i leave upon you and hope some good correction by you will be there in mahabharata article soon.

thank you very much for giving me your precious time--115.242.119.150 (talk) 09:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

And thank you too, Sir, though you may call me Alastair. Please forgive me if it takes some time before I make an addition to the Mbh article. To be sure, I will clarify that scholars can confirm the reasonableness of the belief that a proto-Mbh circulated orally prior to the 4th century text that survives. I will also make a point of finding a reliable source for more conservative Hindu positions. It may take me more than a month to get back to your request, because I have many other priorities just now.

I will not forget, because this note will stay on my talk page.

My respects and best wishes to you, Sir. Alastair Haines (talk) 09:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

thanks a lot,dear Alastair sir! i can give some helpfull information,i read mahabharata article 8 months ago ,6 months ago ,4 months ago,3 months ago with no change,but suddenly it changed and some critical information which i was discussing got removed by some see Textual history and structure,6th paragraph,here john brokington is saying that mahabharata earliest layer as jaya may date back upto 900 b.c.but this information is not present in current version of article,this information was there for about 1 or 2 year atleast.i hope it will help you--115.240.67.92 (talk) 10:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

[big smile] And thank you good Sir, my friend. This link is very helpful. Please be very patient, because I'm not entirely master of my own time. ArbCom are demanding my time at the moment, and I like to try to graciously co-operate with demanding people, because I'm scared of what they'll do if I don't. LOL. Thank you for making things so easy for me to help you make the Mbh article better. This will happen, the gods and ArbCom willing. Again, my respects and best wishes. Alastair Haines (talk) 20:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

True God and 1 John 5:20

From your user page I'm understanding that you're familiar with the Biblical languages? If you have time for this, I have a question on 1 John 5:20 and referencing Jesus as "True God." I understand that a rule of Gk grammar is the antecedent for a pronoun will normally be the matching noun that precedes it. Is that true? Thank you. It's in reference to a discussion Talk:Names_and_titles_of_Jesus_in_the_New_Testament#Partial_list_of_disputed_titles and the article Names_and_titles_of_Jesus_in_the_New_Testament. I'm feeling this needs more input from an original language expert. Basileias (talk) 01:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

1 John 5:20

οιδαμεν	δε	οτι	ο	υιος	του	θεου	ηκει
We know	[adversative particle]	that	the	Son	of [def. article]	God	has come.
και	δεδωκεν	ημιν	διανοιαν	ινα	γινωσκωμεν	τον	αληθινον
And	he has given	to us	understanding,	so that	we may know	Him who is the	True One. [substantive adj.]
και	εσμεν	εν	τω	αληθινω	εν	τω	υιω	αυτου	ιησου	χριστω
And	we are	in	Him who is the	True One,	in	the	Son	of Him,	Jesus	Christ.
ουτος	εστιν	ο	αληθινος	θεος	και	η	ζωη	αιωνιος
This man	is	the	true	God	and	the	life	of eternity.

The most natural reading of the masculine singular nominative demonstrative pronoun ουτος (first word of last line) is as a reference to "Jesus Christ", which immediately precedes it, and to "the Son (of Him who is the True One)", which immediately precedes that, and is in apposition to, "Jesus Christ". So say Greek speakers and almost 2,000 years of Christian scholarship.

There is, however, a Bible translation published in the 1950s, by anonymous translators, that offers a possible alternative. That translation sees ουτος as referring to "Him who is the True One", in context, God.

Let TO be "the True One", let ST be "Son of the True One", let JC be "Jesus Christ". Then the last lines say: We are in TO[1], in ST[2], JC[3], "this he" (ουτος) is the true God. One point of view sees "this he" referring to ST[2] and JC[3]. The 1950s translation sees "this he" referring to TO[1].

There are many, many reliable sources that discuss just how possible the 1950s translation actually is. I would say the vast majority consider it to be really stretching the context. However, since most people who talk about the question also have views regarding other NT references to Jesus as God, which they decide for or against exactly the same way they decide on this verse, it is a common objection that opponents are biased by their views regarding those other NT references. The majority opinion, and it is a very large majority opinion, extending well outside Christian circles, is that the traditional understanding is correct.

I would suggest, however, that at Wikipedia, both views must be documented, because the minority view is extremely well-known and significant. Wikipedia cannot take sides on this point of translation. So I won't either. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

That gives me the pieces I was looking for. Thank you. Basileias (talk) 07:16, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

parakalw, adelphe mou Alastair Haines (talk) 07:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, I liked your breakdown, and it had me thinking chiastically...

Imagine if the first indent were the Son (in italics) and the second indent the Father (in bold):

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,

that we may know him who is true;

and we are in him who is true,

in his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God

and eternal life.

In that structure, the Father is truth, and the Son is life. I've never seen that structure anywhere, but your table above made it stand out.

The structure would have to be tweaked a bit to demarcate "understanding" and "know" in the first two lines, "in" and "in" the in the second two lines, and the [Greek] definite article in the last two lines.EGMichaels (talk) 11:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, another tweak on the structure with some chiastic hooks highlighted:

And we know that the Son of God has come

and has given us understanding,

that we may know him who is true;

and we are in him who is true,

in his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God

and [the] eternal life.

Hmm... I haven't had my coffee yet. I always loved this verse. Need to pull out some commentaries...EGMichaels (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Good thinking as always EGM. Even without chiasmus, I can see a case for the NWT via parallelism.

And we are in Him who is True || in his Son Jesus Christ.

This is the true God || and eternal life.

My own opinion might stray towards seeing the "this" referring to all three masculine referents: True One, Son and Jesus Christ.

In other words, ουτος could be reference to bi-unity ("in-ness") rather than to Jesus alone, or God alone.

John so often uses ουτος for "he", though, without a strong demonstrative feel to it, that traditional readings are probably right:

And we are in Him who is True ||

and in his Son Jesus Christ, who is the true God and eternal life. ||

I'm at the other end of the day to you, my friend, so I'll leave this charming text and turn to things I need to deal with before being offline for a short time, while my wife and I move house this weekend. Alastair Haines (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Happy moving! Before I make another comment that could appeal to NWT reading, I have to preface that I believe the NT is fully Trinitarian and affirms the full Deity of Christ.

That said, there is one other way to see houtos as referring to the Father. Imagine if ALL the pronouns are the Father:

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

The Father would be the "one who is true" and the Son would be "eternal life". To be in the Father would be to be in truth, and to be in the Son would be to be in life.

But that's way too picky for the passage. I don't think John would ever conceive of not including the Son in Deity here, any more than he would ever conceive of not including the Father in Life.

Paul does the same thing. It's fuzzy Trinitarianism, but Trinitarianism nonetheless: Paul most often calls the "Spirit" "Spirit", most often calls the "Father" "God", and most often calls the "Son" "Lord." But it would be ridiculous to make this a rule, because there are exceptions that the NWT has to do gymnastics around, such as Romans 8 where the Spirit of God (v9) is IDENTICAL with the Spirit of Christ (v9) is IDENTICAL with Christ (v10). Also, there's Jesus own quip that "God is Spirit", and of course the Father is called "Lord" in numerous places. So, while "Spirit" is normally shorthand for "Holy Spirit", Christ is Spirit (how else could Christ be IN you) and the Father is Spirit. While Jesus is "Lord" certainly the Father is also "Lord." And while the Father is "God", well, "God is Spirit" is just as easy an equation as "Spirit is God." And of course Jesus is ho theos mou as well.

I hate it when people turn tendencies into rules. Granted, you have to NOTE the exceptions to the tendencies for clarity, but if you deny the exceptions you end up with huge non sequitors like the NWT's fiasco in Roman's 14 where kurios is Jehovah in a bunch of places and then "lord" in a few more when speaking of Jesus. While you can make it work in English, it's ridiculous in Greek.EGMichaels (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. Don't like the "all hes lead to God" approach. They're all hes in English, not in Greek (the bottom line of your post!). Consider the striking opposition between autos and houtos. Also consider the parallelism between 5:20a and 5:20b. Who is he who gives (dedwken) understanding (a); and who is he (houtos) that is the true God (b)? The resolution of the pronoun in (a) must be the Son, why not in (b)? I like your explanation—fuzzy trinitarianism—yes, and perhaps trinitarianism is best left a bit fuzzy. shalom Alastair Haines (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah -- I was lazy with the pronouns and didn't sanity check it in Greek. What aren't you in bed????EGMichaels (talk) 17:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

<< John 15 and 1 John 5:20 >>The vast majority of theologians and Christians have, almost uncontestedly, referred to Jesus as the True God (in 1 John 5:20). Why? Because it conforms with other scriptures and is an experiential reality for many mature Christians. It is well accepted that a Bible verse cannot be dissected apart on its own, for this can lead to apostate meanings, done through one's "high imaginations" (intellect, reasoning), which "exalts itself against the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10:5). Each verse is studied not only in its surrounding context, but it also must conform with other verses. See the example below, where it is Jesus, not the Father, who is the True Vine, who lives in his True Followers.

I Am the True Vine. [Jesus is speaking: ] 1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit...4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. --John 15

The second reason why the vast majority of Christians agree that Jesus is the True God in 1 John 5:20 is due to their experiential relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit (not the Father). Jesus sent the Comforter--the Holy Spirit--at Pentecost to infill and empower His people "that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true". The infilling of the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) eventually brings about in a true follower of Jesus a special comfort--the "peace which passeth understanding", a living relationship with the Holy Spirit who indwells in them--expressed as a heart-felt love of God (an experiential feeling/living-faith, a "knowing", not just "head knowledge"), and daily communion with Him, expressed in the song: "He walks with me, and He talks with me, along life's narrow way."

Editors, please consider moving the relevant part this thread to Talk:1 John 5:20#1 John 5:20. Thanks.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Tam, you're welcome to copy the discussion there as far as I'm concerned. If EGM agrees, then this discussion is yours to copy as you wish. Wikipedia is about sharing and being open minded. God bless you Tam. Alastair Haines (talk) 18:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Certainly! Even my admission of linguistic laziness! :-)EGMichaels (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It's all yours Tam, with our blessing. :))

You might want to trim out Basileias' comments though, since we don't have his waiver. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Patriarchy again

I re-read your proposal about a history of advocacy for patriarchy, and also read my answer. I just gave quite a long answer to your last message with the Greek translations--if you were kidding about the "nice positive interaction" I didn't get it, so I took you seriously and replied. However, I see that I did sound defensive about your first proposal. It had mostly to do with that table, but I was not encouraging and I apologize.

I think a section of the article does need to spell out the main points of advocacy for patriarchy. It won't convince everyone any more than the other sections convince everyone, but it shouldn't have to. It is better if you don't try. It would only need to be a clear explanation from an accepted source, maybe with some feeling. I know it is there. The article would be more rounded if you would be willing to add this other voice. In your last message I picked up on a possible argument concerning whether patriarchy implies misogyny, and a few related questions, but you would know the main points better, yourself. Can't it be approached in a different way? You don't need proof of a view even if the table were capable of proof. Just a reasoned argument from a good source. --Hammy64000 (talk) 21:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to beat this to death, but I think I get the Goldberg thing. I am definitely not trying to argue--I just don't know how to get ths across. He provides an authoritative voice for solutions to the problems and issues that you are concerned with. Sorry if this is too simplistic, but Goldberg's kind of proof is not necessary. You can keep the point of view and all that--but I think he may just be polarizing. I couldn't understand you at all if I had to wade through Goldberg. Sorry to intrude again, but I just thought this was important. Please have a nice weekend.--Hammy64000 (talk) 23:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

This version good for me

Hey. This version of the hijra lede would work for me. I have not made an attempt to compromise based on my consciously taking into consideration points which you have recently made in the discussion, so take no offense if I have put things in a way that has disregarded what you have been saying. Right now, I am testing the water to see how much of my pov I can push, so definitely what I have written and the way I have written it is open to revision. I am also putting a notice for this on Mish's page directing him here.

Immediately I removed your addition of the descriptor "asexual", because whatever hijras are the lack of sexuality is neither, I think, a promoted nor practiced hijra value. If you feel that hijra piety does relate sexual abstinence to religious devotion, which is how I interpreted your edit, then please say so and I will reconsider my position.

I would encourage you to try to make some practical edits to the article so that I can gauge how this collaboration is going to go. At this point, I am hopeful that we will quickly find consensus. Blue Rasberry 18:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Alastair Haines. You have new messages at Bluerasberry's talk page.
Message added 15:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I re-read everything you ever wrote on the hijra talk page. You said you were busy lately, so I took my time. I think I agree with what you said, but I feel that I must be missing some minor point. Blue Rasberry 15:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, I tried your Wiki email but it didn't seem to go thru. Pls try mine at [email protected]. Thanks, ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 02:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration case

Welcome back. I hope your move went well. Since you are now able to participate in the arbitration again, please let us know (here is fine) how much longer you will need to complete your evidence. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm still finishing off the move. Fortunately the ISP came back online early. Handing in property report and cleaning old place tomorrow. I also have a submission to clear with my supervisor during the next week. The generosity of my wife should provide a fair bit of time during the next week or so.

The time consuming part of evidence will be attempting to establish if there is anything to suggest that Kaldari removes reliable sources regarding gender at articles that I'm not involved in. I'll make that lowest priority, though. It's not really my responsibility.

The essential bits to help others will be: responding to the evidence the first RfAr provided to support their resolutions--shouldn't take long, there wasn't much (say 4 hours ~ 1 day); responding to evidence from people other than Kaldari at the current case--again, shouldn't take long, there isn't much there (say 8 hours ~ 2 days); responding to Kaldari's evidence in detail should take 8 hours ~ 2 days; providing evidence against Kaldari regarding edit-warring, personal attacks and escalation should only take a day, because I've generally avoided him, up to now.

That's a total of 6 days. I should plan for a day off each week. The following week I can research Kaldari's activity in his time at Wiki, while interacting with comments regarding the other evidence and responses I've provided. That might be all that's needed from my side. It all depends on how clear things are to people, and how much work they're willing to do themselves.

On that time-frame, we'd be about a week over Fozzie's original proposal, 3 or 4 days more than the time I've been offline.

I'd like this cleared up as soon as possible myself, either to get back to normal, or to move on to an appeal if needed.

So, short answer: two weeks, say the 14th of May. No new evidence after that point. Alastair Haines (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to post something up on the ArbCase workshop talk page.. I don't mind giving you some extra time here.. not sure I want to drag this out, but I don't think it'll be a problem in holding off in posting the proposed decision until the 15th or 16th. SirFozzie (talk) 20:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Section on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Alastair Haines 2

I removed that section as it was out of place. If you want to refute or argue evidence provided by others, you can a. incorporate it into your own statement (staying under the limit, of course), b. create a subpage and link to it from your main evidence section, or c. discuss it on the Workshop page under the Analysis of evidence heading. Regardless, make sure you do so without attacking your fellow editors. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 05:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind where I put it.

And don't worry, I only ever offer fair criticism, never personal attacks. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Not worthy

Alastair,

Thanks for the praise but I don't think I live up to it. I certainly have my own biases, they may be quirky and not as easily shared by others but they're there no doubt. I appreciate your own commentaries on that talk page quite a bit. There are a few editors who clearly know something about the relevant fields (like you do) and I certainly do not belong to such a group myself. I'm just sick and tired of what I see as a whole lot of useless arguing about a topic that this entry shouldn't really be concerning itself with all that much in the first place -- the cultural battle over creationism and perhaps more generally the public role of religious belief. That is something I do know a tad about. It's really disheartening to see a reference work so gripped by this nonsense. Oh well. Happy editing and thanks for all of your good work.Griswaldo (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Note on Alastair Haines 2 case:

If any parties have any relevant information to add, now is the time. Several arbitrators have spoken up in ArbCom's discussions that the facts of this case are clear, and that providing this additional time would be not useful. I strongly urge all parties to provide any further evidence and workshop proposals they have, and quickly. I will post this to all parties talk page and will update when any proposed final decision is available. (this is a note I've provided to all parties to attempt to give as much notices as possible of a proposed decision being moved up). SirFozzie (talk) 19:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Sir Fozzie, I most definitely want to add my comments. However, it is unclear to me on which page, and/or under which heading, that is appropriate. I respectfully request your guidance on that question. Thank you. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 04:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Since it is clear that there is no evidence against me, only of personal attacks made by others, it's fine if we proceed to quashing as quickly as possible.

If, however, any proposal is being mooted that makes any findings against me, that is clearly unacceptable, and withdrawing the two weeks I've explained I need for evidence looks not only like bias, but an attempt to protect the guilty.

If arbs want to vote to protect themselves from evidence that will show their errors by restricting time, that's a good way of making their resolutions bound to be rejected at appeal, for lack of due diligence.

As named party, with tons of evidence still to come, I veto the decision. If that's not accepted, failure of due process and likely bias among the arbs is pretty much established.

Stop! You are going the wrong way. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

You have no veto power. I will reiterate, if you have anything new to post, evidence/workshop wise, now is the time. SirFozzie (talk) 03:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

And I will reiterate, I cannot supply evidence faster than the agreed deadline.

Any move by the arbs to bring forward closing of evidence looks like (and probably is) an attempt to prevent me from providing evidence they don't want made public.

It will look much worse for the arbs if I bring forward evidence they have not taken into account in proposed decisions than if they choose to rubbish my evidence as or after it is presented.

I object. I will continue to provide evidence after any proposed decision. It will carry far more weight if that's what I have to do, because it will show the arbitrators to have been wrong to conclude evidence was complete.

More importantly, it will suggest very obviously to observers that arbs adopted a deliberate strategy to exploit my real life commitments and exclude me from providing evidence that might help my cause.

I find it hard to imagine any more short-sighted and self-defeating strategy from the arbs.

As if outnumbering someone and having the responsibility of the final decision isn't enough advantage already, current arbs seem to be so defensive they're not even willing to hear evidence they haven't bothered to find for themselves.

Very bad. Change your minds. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I can't understand why my compromise proposal was rejected: that they temporarily block you from editing anywhere but your talk page and the ArbCom pages so that you can do nothing else on Wikipedia other than present your evidence within the previously agreed to time frame. There was no reason to reject this compromise.EGMichaels (talk) 10:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Courtesy notice..

Hi. This is a message to let you know that the proposed decision in the Alastair Haines 2 case has been posted. Please see this link for the proposed decision and to view the arbitrator's votes on this case. SirFozzie (talk) 05:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Fozzie, EGM alerted me to this via email. I've just had a quick look.

I'm quite pleased with what I see, because arbs stick to saying things for which there is no substantial evidence, and for which my whole edit history provides counter-evidence.

Interestingly, it is the alleged "legal threats" issue that is the focus of attention, and on that point in particular, the arbs are clearly mistaken.

It doesn't particularly worry me whether arbs admit they are wrong now, or whether time will prove they are wrong if I choose not to take legal action; in either case it will be seen by independent third parties that it is arbitrators and administrators who are chilling my criticism with threats, not vice versa: "stop complaining or else we'll block or ban you!"

What happens re me and my account is trivial in the big picture. What is very helpful, though, is for it to be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, that the current ArbCom will not honour the license CC-BY-SA 3.0, which every page of Wikipedia carries.

Interestingly, one of the recommendations of Glam-Wiki 2009, Canberra was addressed to the Foundation:

Take pro-active care of the moral rights of content creators as these are not waived even with free-licensing.

Evidently, that recommendation is based on a well-founded concern. Equally obviously, the current ArbCom has no interest in correcting conduct that breaches the moral rights of contributors.

The bottom line of the current RfAr is: current arbitrators are more interested in silencing criticism than in upholding the moral rights of content creators. Indeed, these arbitrators are even willing to go on record as being opposed to the moral rights of contributors.

Current arbs argue that contributors to English Wikipedia are forbidden to assert their moral rights, on the invalid basis that to do so would constitute a "legal threat".

Obviously I'm disgusted, but I'm curious to see how long they'll be able to keep getting away with that.

I'll be continuing to provide evidence according to the schedule I agreed to. See you back at the RfAr page. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

For anyone interested in the extensive academic discussion regarding this issue, outside Wikipedia. Here's a start.

Accordingly, moral rights do not contradict the public interest and are compatible with American law. Moreover, by acceding to the Berne Convention (hereinafter "Berne") in 1988, the United States legally obligated itself to enforce the moral rights of authors. Berne provides "the highest internationally recognized standards for copyright protection." By acceding to Berne, the United States agreed to enforce moral rights in American courts. In spite of this legal obligation to guarantee a minimum of moral rights protection, to this day the United States refuses to officially recognize moral rights, and the enforcement of those rights in American courts remains questionable.

As the pace of globalization increases, moral rights loom on the horizon as a divisive issue. The majority of countries in the world recognize moral rights. The American misperception of moral rights and refusal to effectively implement them — despite a legally binding obligation to do so — continues to be a significant barrier to further international agreement on the basic protections of copyright law and continues to hinder the expansion of copyright protection throughout the globe.

—Michael B. Gunlicks, "A Balance of Interests: The Concordance of Copyright Law and Moral Rights in the Worldwide Economy"

Alastair Haines (talk) 03:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment

Alastair Haines is the finest scholar I've encountered on Wikipedia. I'll miss him on his sabbatical.EGMichaels (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I concur. What an extreme loss. --Buster7 (talk) 21:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Can someone spell out what the effect of this arbitration thing is? Is Alastair gone as of now? We were working on something together, and were almost done! Blue Rasberry 00:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he's gone as of now until further notice. He can come back, but there is a process involved. I'm a friend of his and have an interest in his work. Is there something I can help you with?EGMichaels (talk) 00:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

He isn't blocked yet. He can do whatever he pleases until the case is closed. Kaldari (talk) 00:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately he has real world deadlines he's taking care of and cannot do much until he takes care of them. And THEN he still has to present his evidence. Although the committee did not keep its word regarding the timetable, Alastair has given his word regarding presentation of evidence, and knowing Alastair -- he'll keep his end of the agreement.EGMichaels (talk) 00:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Rasberry! Nice to hear from you. Looks like you'll be able to revert everything I've done, if you wish. Just like Kaldari has been doing for more than a year. Arbs have decided I'm not able to work with people when there's a disagreement. We know they're wrong, but don't say anything. If you do, you might just get blocked for refusing to accept those who actually arbitrate content, by deleting editors who provide what they want to censor. It would seem that Wikipedia also upholds the right of arbitrators and admins to threaten or implement blocks on people who criticise them, but will not address personal attacks on mere editors.

Chill out man! That's the law around here. You'll do a fine job without me, what did I ever contribute anyway? ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 03:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sad that it ended up like this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Cas, I haven't given up hope, but I'm almost mind-blowingly stupid in my optimism. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Alastair -- worst case scenario, you'll be forced to write real stuff and get paid for it ;-) EGMichaels (talk) 04:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, I did not know anything about the arbs or this situation external to the work I was doing with you. I did not consider us to be in disagreement. Thanks for all the references you provided and for the extensive commentary you posted on the talk pages; really, thoughtful responses on this subject are hard to get. To the extent that I was able to understand your perspective it will remain in the work that we did together; I never saw us as having any conflict, although I do wish I would have had time to understand your ideas better. Blue Rasberry 13:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi again Rasberry. Yes, I don't think we're in disagreement either. We both care to honour the hijra self-identification, and the reliable sources of different points of view. It's an interesting challenge to pull all the sources and points of view together in a neutral way that makes simple sense to a reader. It's not a conflict or big deal, but it is a little challenging when doctors call hijra "male" and some social scientists call them "neither male nor female". The same words are being used in slightly different ways. So we need to understand how that works and explain it simply to a reader. We've made great progress towards that already.

I do think it is unlikely I'll continue to contribute at Wiki if the "powers that be" are unwilling to honour the terms of the license they advertise on every page here! It's really sad, because gender articles at Wikipedia, in particular, need people who can ignore the heat that sometimes arises in discussion and stick to getting sources and putting forward a neutral perspective, that is genuinely presenting all points of view as completely as possible, without judging them. In my long experience at Wiki, there are few people who are willing to source the biology of gender, for reasons the current RfAr makes obvious: sources on the biology of gender are unpopular with some people who are willing to turn content questions into questions about people's conduct, and admins and arbs cannot be guaranteed to see or deal with this adequately.

It's interesting to note that as I reflected on how wrong it was that some people were claiming that "scientific" sources outside Christianity were more reliable about matters of Christian faith than Christian sources themselves, I realised it was the same issue as the one at the hijra article—scientific sources cannot be used to silence "gender activist" sources regarding their beliefs in "gender equity". Scientific points of view are nearly always significant, but they're not totally neutral, and scientists acknowledge that they can't speak on ethics or moral issues (see naturalistic fallacy).

Just as Wiki neutrality means acknowledging the significance of hijra self-identification as "non-male", so it means acknowledging the significance of Christian self-identification as "Christ-worshipers" or whatever.

There are many people at Wiki who can source Christianity related articles neutrally (including many outstanding atheists whose work here I admire). What we seem to lack is people willing and able to do this in gender articles. If Wikipedia is to become the encyclopedia that anyone except Alastair Haines can edit, I do hope that you, Rasberry, and many others will be diligent to seek out and document scientific material on gender issues: it's interesting stuff, and it doesn't actually take sides on moral issues, like gender equity and tolerance of diverse sexualities, though its much, much closer to both those ideals than some editors are willing to concede.

Anyway, it's still not quite over. I'm still hoping to see arbs lead by example, and demonstrate willingness to change their minds on the basis of rational handling of evidence. That's something I think you, Rasberry, and I have been achieving at [[Hijra (South Asia). Whatever happens, please accept my compliments on your exemplary willingness to depend on sources and open, frank discussion. Best wishes to you always. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

fare ye well

As a parting gift, I've restored Adamantius (journal) and added the necessary info to establish its notability based on indexing. See you on the other side? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 03:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yay! Thanks for putting those brilliant Italians back on the map! :))

Thanks for reminding me about the work at Wikisource that politics at Wikipedia have distracted me from.

On other things, prompted by your post, but not looking for comment:

I haven't given up hope in the good faith of the arbitrators, nor in Wiki policy or processes, so I'm not sure things will end as arbs currently think they will. We all make errors, and so long as there is evidence that has not been discussed, there is always room for people to graciously shift positions.

It is arbitrators (and a very small handful of editors) that are demanding discussion be closed, and demanding I not edit. People supporting me actually outnumber the arbs and two or three critics. It is not I who leaves Wikipedia. I love the project, support its policies and processes, and have strong affection for many of its editors, administrators and arbitrators.

But it is true: so long as I am permitted to speak freely, I will also offer constructive criticism, supported by evidence and good sense, as best I see it. Currently, I have a very strong case against certain abuses of Wiki's good system. It doesn't surprise me that, as those who I think are perpetrating the abuses have the power to attempt to or actually affect my silence, this is precisely what they have done.

I've not lost perspective, though, Wiki is not flawed beyond hope, it's just a long way from being perfect. That's nothing to be ashamed of, it's an opportunity for good people to take responsibility and improve things.

Alastair Haines (talk) 04:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Analysis of evidence at first RfAr

Interested people may wish to have a look at this page: Analysis of evidence at first RfAr. 14 diffs were offered by arbitrators at a previous RfAr, which actually fail to demonstrate any fault in me; they were, however, offered as grounds at that time to severly restrict my editing at Wikipedia. More importantly, they gave the impression that I had, in fact, behaved inappropriately in some way. I protested, and I did not take any legal action, despite my continued conviction that they constitute publication of unfounded assertions regarding my editing at Wikipedia.

Please feel free to comment on the discussion page, if you'd be so kind ... anyone: arbs, admins, friends or enemies. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Alastair Haines 2

This arbitration case has been closed. The following remedies have been enacted:

• User:Alastair Haines is banned from editing Wikipedia for a period of one year, and thereafter pending further direction of the Arbitration Committee under remedy 2.
• Should Alastair Haines wish to return to editing Wikipedia after one year, he shall first communicate with the Arbitration Committee and provide a satisfactory assurance that he will refrain from making any further legal threats against other editors or against the Wikimedia Foundation. Should Alastair Haines, after being permitted to return, again make a legal threat or a statement that may reasonably be construed as a legal threat, he may be blocked for an appropriate period of time by any uninvolved administrator.
• To assist Alastair Haines in disengaging from Wikipedia, the case pages relating to this arbitration and all related pages have been courtesy blanked. As appropriate, other pages reflecting controversies to which Alastair Haines was a party may also be courtesy-blanked, particularly where the discussion is no longer relevant to ongoing editing issues. In addition, if Alastair Haines so requests, his username (and hence the username associated with his edits in page histories) may be changed to another appropriate username other than his real name. Editors who have been in conflict with Alastair Haines are strongly urged to make no further reference to him on-wiki following his departure.

For the Arbitration Committee, ---- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

A Question.

Does a block mean that he can't edit on his own talk page, or is his talk page the only page he is allowed to edit? Thanks. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I think he won't be able to edit at all for a while. But you can reach him by email, and he may be active on Wikisource (I might check that out). I'll miss him here. One of the few voices of neutrality out there.EGMichaels (talk) 01:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Editors who are NOT in conflict with User:Alastair Haines and support his immediate return are strongly urged to make constant references to him on-wiki following his departure and throughout his banishment.--Buster7 (talk) 02:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Buster -- let's talk with Alastair offline first, okay? I do want to see him back, but it's not right to urge anything unilaterally when he's being affected without discussing it with him. I'd urge that for everyone. He's still here -- just not here. EGMichaels (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Do we bow? Or do we cut them dead? No need to warn me of caution. I am well behaved. Provocation is not my intent.--Buster7 (talk) 05:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Alastair_Haines being banned on wikipedia is an extremely sad news. While the Arbitration Committee concluded "it is apparent that Alastair Haines is in fundamental disagreement with a basic principle on which the collaborative Wikipedia model is founded", it failed to notice that the user has collaborated on many FA articles with others like me. As another article where he collaborated with me (Iravan,Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iravan/archive1) is nearing FA status, he is been banned. There were only some articles where Alastair_Haines was accussed of edit warring, if it was true he should have banned from those articles or a broader topic like Christianity. Even if Alastair_Haines is guilty of other charges like legal threats etc. are true, the punishment of 1 year ban is too harsh. MISSING YOU, AL my friend, who helped me create fine articles like FA Vithoba, Iravan. Thanks, AL. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 09:59, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed -- let's just make sure we don't make matters worse. Yes, he was one of the best editors I've ever worked with. I just don't want one year to turn into longer. The person who began this edit war with him is already pressing his advantage and deleting material. I would encourage everyone to stay far away from this person and let him do whatever he wants to do -- or you could get banned too. Wikipedia is a big place. Stay away from gender articles for now.EGMichaels (talk) 11:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It is Wikipedias loss and.......ours. Just as I feared......they did not want to restrict Alastair but hound him out of Wikipedia....by hook or crook. Too bad, evidence and statements of Redtigerxyz, EGM and others was not considered. And the reason for banning Alastair is self evidently too pathetic....harping on legal threats....where none were given. Other good editors are likely to be hounded out of Wikipedia in this high-handed manner. The rot has set in. God save wikipedia.--Indian Chronicles (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Two weeks ago a building was torn down next to the neighborhood post office. I've probably seen that building at least a thousand times in my life but I'm already starting to forget what it looked like and what it was used for. wwAs...--Buster7 (talk) 00:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

I have nominated Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Good Company: Jimbo and Alastair

The biggest problem Alastair ran into is one common in a risk management situation: administrative risk denial.

In quality engineering terms, denial is no solution to risk, but rather compounds it.

So, when Alastair pointed out a legal risk embedded in current processes, instead of being thanked he was banned.

In the same way, Jimbo Wales recently attempted to mitigate against a potential risk to the foundation: in this case both a potential legal and public relations risk.

The solution? Er... demote Jimbo Wales.

This is clearly not a good way to approach continual process improvement. Rather, it actually creates greater risk because it is clear that administrators were advised of the problem and refused to address it.

We need to keep in mind that administrators are volunteers. Even those in very high positions such as the arbcom do not serve on a professional basis. There is no actual training they are accountable for.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but it is clear that Jimbo has run into the same impasse that Alastair Haines ran into. This is a problem that will either be solved through internal process improvement or external demands. One would hope that internal processes could be employed, but when I attempted to address this in both arbcoms I was temporarily blocked in the first one and threatened with banishment on the second -- both by the same administrator.

Let's remember Alastair as a symbol here. Had Alastair been listened to LAST YEAR or even as late as a few months ago the processes could have been reviewed and improved and we would still have Jimbo in place as a superadmin (where he should still be today).

Instead, Alastair is banned. Jimbo is an additional casualty. And Wikipedia remains at risk. If anyone has any ideas of how we can help Wikipedia rescue itself internally I'd like to see it.

Note to administrators: pointing out a risk is not a threat to Wikipedia; it is an attempt to help Wikipedia. Risk denial is the threat we face.SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 02:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Nouthetic Counseling

An article that you have been involved in editing, Nouthetic Counseling, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nouthetic Counseling. Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 00:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Language families (Ethnologue)

The article Language families (Ethnologue) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No reason for such a redirect - Apparently merely a misleading attempt to draw attention to another article.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{dated prod}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. hgilbert (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:DivineWisdom.jpg

A tag has been placed on File:DivineWisdom.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image is an unused redundant copy (all pixels the same or scaled down) of an image in the same file format, which is on Wikipedia (not on Commons), and all inward links have been updated.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Tim1357 ^talk 01:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Language families (Ethnologue) listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Language families (Ethnologue). Since you had some involvement with the Language families (Ethnologue) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). hgilbert (talk) 10:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC) hgilbert (talk) 10:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sydney Meetup :-)

See the meetup page for further information - short version is that we're hoping to meet in a fortnight in the city for a beer and a chat. Minors and Miners are welcome, with a responsible adult and a minimum of coal dust ;-) - do try and get out if you can, it's been a little while since wiki folk met in Sydney :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 05:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Biology of gender

I see you're blocked but I suspect you can reply here. I've moved the article you created "biology of gender" to a more apprpirate title Biology of gender specific human behavior. Your unsourced definition of "biology of gender" in terms of (human) behavior contradicts how it's used in biology courses. Cheers. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:BrainSex.jpg

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Nomination of List of Australian Research Council religion journals for deletion

The article List of Australian Research Council religion journals is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Australian Research Council religion journals until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Crowsnest (talk) 07:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:JBMWcover.jpg

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Nice Koekjes

Buster7 has given you a Nice Koekjes which promote fellowship, goodwill and WikiLove. Hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the good flavor of Nice Koekjes around Wiki World by giving someone else one. Maybe to a friend or, better yet, to someone you have had disagreements with in the past. Nice Biscuits are very tasty and have been known to calm even the most savage beast. Enjoy! Buster Seven Talk

I miss you, sir. Buster Seven Talk 08:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm tempted to do a vacation in Australia one of these days...SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 10:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I was tempted to leave you a koetkjes,Tim, but when I visited your talk it seemed inactive since June, 2010. I hope all is well. Have a bite of Alastair's cookie...I don't think he would mind. Buster Seven Talk 14:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Its nearing completion of one year. Hopefully we will be seeing Alastair on wiki soon. Nice cookie Buster! --Indian Chronicles (talk) 09:48, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I thought he was perm-banned, no? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 13:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Common Decency

Let's limit this page to friends, please. It's indecent to attack someone who isn't available to defend himself.SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Some folks visit gravesites to leave flowers and remember those that have past; other folks come to 'piss' on the gravestone. It is sad the way the Internet breaks down our capacity for reflective thought. Buster Seven Talk 15:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:RBMW2006.jpg

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Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

The site that you built is being systematically deconstructed. Please see this site as well as Danvers Statement wiki page. I fear the edits are agenda driven. Please also see discussion on NIV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toverton28 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Your feedback is requested

WikiProject Writing Systems is conducting a poll regarding its future goals, and we have identified you as a person with a vested interest in the future of that project. Whether you are a member of the WikiProject, a frequent contributor, or a passerby with an interest in the subject, we want your input as to the future emphasis that the Writing Systems project will take. Please take a moment to peruse the entries and add your comments where you have an opinion. You can visit the poll by clicking here, or on the project image, 書, on the right.

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The file File:GrudemWA.jpg has an uncertain copyright status and may be deleted. You can comment on its removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warfieldian (talk • contribs) 15:59, 10 August 2011‎ (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving, Alastair Haines!
As we in America sit down at the dinner table and say our thanks, I would like to give thanks to you for your wonderful contributions, wish you a very happy Thanksgiving and tell you that you are missed. May your turkey, ham or beast of choice satiate you until next year! TRA! Buster Seven Talk 17:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)}	A traditional Thanksgiving dinner.

99999

It was my 99 999th edit. Is it possible to see you again on wiki? With regards. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Sydney meetup

You are listed here as interested in Sydney meetups, so I thought I'd let you know about one on this Saturday at 5pm at the Alexandria Hotel. Details here: Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/November_2011. It would be great to see you. --99of9 (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:WTD2008.jpg

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 05:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:WTD2008.jpg

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Magi: Lost Kings or Aliens w/ GPS

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension.

Happy Holidays..--Buster Seven Talk 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Ichthus: January 2012

ICHTHUS

January 2012

In this issue...

• From the Editor
• What are You doing For Lent?
• Fun and Exciting Contest Launched
• Spotlight on WikiProject Catholicism

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Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions and subscriptions contact the Newsroom

File:Aihaines.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Aihaines.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Cloudbound (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Ichthus: May 2012

ICHTHUS

May 2012

From the Editor

This month marks the observation of Pentecost, one of the most important feast of the Christian liturgical year. It is our hope here that all of you, regardless of your religious affiliation (if any), find that the holiday, and its accompanying activities, an enjoyable and beneficial experience. We also hope that this "Birthday of the Church" is one which gives you the same joy as the birthday of yourself or your loved ones.

Ichthus is the successor to the long running WikiProject Christianity newsletter, run under the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department. As such, you will continue to see information about our latest featured and good articles, DYKs, as well as new members who have joined our project. You might also see links to Christianity related news from the mainstream media!

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

John Carter, Asst. Editor

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity-related topics Noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

Help Bring Wikipe-tan "into the fold"

As many of you may know, our unofficial mascot, dear Wikipe-tan, hasn't yet indicated any particular beliefs. However, yes, as we all know, ahem, some people might object to our beloved mascot running around in a French maid outfit. People do talk, you know. ;) If anyone might be able to develop an image of the dear lady in a image more, well, "Christian," I would like to see perhaps a vote for next month as to which, if any, image of the dear girl we might make our own unofficial mascot. Please post your images here.

By John Carter

Christianity in other wikis

As many of you might now, there are a large number of other Wikimedia Foundation projects, including WikiSource, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, WikiQuote, and others. I certainly believe that Wikibooks and Wikiquote might be among the more directly relevant sister projects. If any of you can think of any particular efforts in these other projects which you think would benefit from more input, please let us know here, so we can help spread the word around.

By John Carter

Spotlight on the Outreach department

Ichthus will spotlight a different subproject or workgroup of WikiProject Christianity. This edition will spotlight on our vital Outreach department. This comparatively small, but vital, project unit is dedicated to welcoming new editors to Wikipedia and the Christianity related content, and to providing information to the various project members, in forms like this newsletter.

The scope of articles with which this group deals is truly enormous, and, given the wide variety of material with which we deal, we would very much welcome the input of more individuals, particularly individuals who are particularly knowledgeable of the less well-known and less frequently monitored articles related to Christianity.

Speaking personally, I would be very, very gratified if we were to have this become a very, very large and active unit, with members from the broad spectrum of Christian beliefs, practices, and groups. The broader the spectrum and areas of expertise of members we have, the better we will be able to help manage the content. Please consider whether you believe you might be able to contribute in this vital area.

By John Carter

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Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Two Year Anniversary of Indefinite Block

Watch this space. ```Buster Seven Talk 17:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Happily--Indian Chronicles (talk) 17:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Ichthus: June 2012

ICHTHUS

June 2012

Membership report

The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 331 active members. We would like to welcome User:Sanju87, User:Psalm84, User:Zegron, User:Jargon777, User:Calu2000, User:Gilderien, User:Ronallenus, Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor

Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. We have recently added some new sections to the newsletter. Please let us know what you think of the new departments, and if there are any other suggestions for departments you would like to see. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

Church of the month

by Berthold Werner Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai

Vote for the project mascot

We had last month asked our members to help "bring into the fold" Wikipe-tan as the project's mascot. Voting will take place this month for which image we should adopt at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Outreach/Wikipe-tan. Please take a moment to review the images and vote for whichever is your favorite, or, if you so prefer, suggest an additional one.

By John Carter

DYK

• ...that Anna of Kashin, a Russian medieval princess, was twice canonized as a holy protectress of women who suffer the loss of relatives?

Calendar

Thie coming month includes days dedicated to the honor of Beheading of John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul, the Nativity of John the Baptist, and Saint Barnabas.

Featured content and GA report

Alec Douglas-Home recently achieved FA status. This picture, in the Church of the Month section, was recently promoted to Featured Picture status. Our thanks and congratulations to all those involved.

Wikimedia Foundation report

Wikisource currently has many old texts available, most of them in the public domain. This is a potentially very valuable source for several things, including for instance links to Biblical verses, because we know that it will, basically, be around as long as we are.

By user:John Carter with inspiration from History2007

Christian art

This section would include a rather large image of a specific work of art, with a link to the most directly relevant article.

Suggestion: Resurrection of Christ, an English 15th century Nottingham alabaster. Groups of painted relief panels were sold via dealers to churches on a budget , who had wood frameworks made to hold them locally. From a huge new donation of images from the Walters Art Museum to Commons, see

By Johnbod

Spotlight

A new WikiProject relating directly to Christian history is being developed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian history. Also, a group specifically devoted to the Mennonites and other Anabaptists is now up and running at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Anabaptist work group. Anyone interested in assisting with the development of these groups and topics is more than welcome to do so.

By John Carter

I believe

... in the statements contained in the Nicene Creed. I believe that the Bible is one of the two defining bases for belief. The other is the Sacred tradition, which provides us with means of interpreting the Scriptures, as well as some teachings which have been handed on by God outside of the scriptures. I believe that the Magisterium has been empowered to fill this interpretative function. I believe that clerical celibacy is a rule that should generally be followed. I am a member of the Catholic Church.

By John Carter

Help requests

Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

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Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk) 02:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Ichthus: July 2012

ICHTHUS

July 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 336 active members. We would like to welcome User:Emilymadcat, User:Toa Nidhiki05, User:DonutGuy, and User:RCNesland, Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. We have recently added some new sections to the newsletter. Please let us know what you think of the new departments, and if there are any other suggestions for departments you would like to see. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

Church of the month

by User:JaGa Mission Santa Clara de Asis

Vote for the project mascot
We had last month asked our members to help "bring into the fold" Wikipe-tan as the project's mascot. Voting will take place this month for which image we should adopt at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Outreach/Wikipe-tan. Please take a moment to review the images and vote for whichever is your favorite, or, if you so prefer, suggest an additional one.

By John Carter

Calendar
Thie coming month (mid-July through mid-September) includes days dedicated to the honor of Mary Magdalene, James, son of Zebedee, Ignatius Loyola, Saint Dominic, Joseph of Arimathea, and the Transfiguration of Jesus.

Featured content and GA report
Grade I listed churches in Cheshire was recently promoted to Featured List status. This picture was recently promoted to Featured Picture status. Bartolome de las Casas and Edmund the Martyr were promoted to GA level this past month. Our thanks and congratulations to all those involved.

Wikimedia Foundation report

Wikibooks welcomes the development of textbooks of all kinds, children's books, recipes, and other material. It currently has just under 2500 books, including several Wikijunior books for the 12 and under population. There is, at present, not even a book on Christianity. Anyone interested in helping develop such a textbook is more than welcome to do so.

By user:John Carter

Christian art

The portrait of Sir Thomas More by Hans Holbein the Younger.

By John Carter

Spotlight
A new WikiProject relating directly to Christian history is being developed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian history. Anyone interested in assisting with the development of these groups and topics is more than welcome to do so.

By John Carter

I believe
... in the tradition of Thomas the Apostle, Mar Addai, and Saint Bartholomew. I believe that Jesus had two essences (or natures), human and divine, unmingled, that are everlastingly united in one personality. I am a member of the Assyrian Church of the East.

By John Carter

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk) 15:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity August 2012 newsletter

ICHTHUS

August 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 341 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, User:David_FLXD, User:Alexsbecker, User:Penguin 236, User:Gugi001, User:John D. Rockerduck, and User:Margaret9mary. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. We have recently added some new sections to the newsletter. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

by User:Diliff Frauenkirche (Church of Our Blessed Lady) in Munich, taken from the tower of St. Peter's Church

Contest of the month
We currently have a remarkable lack of Wikipedia:Wikipedia-Books. Right now, Category:Wikipedia books on Christianity contains only 12 books. We certainly could have at least one book on each major grouping within Christianity. One of the challenges for this month, then, is working to put together books on relevant topics. For this month, one contest is for editors to assemble the basic Wikipedia books for each of the main topics of the extant related projects. When finished, they should their creation of the books at the main Christianity noticeboard, and at the end of the month the project will award barnstars to those who have made a significant efforts in developing this underdeveloped content.

Also this month, we are going to have have a challenge to create and improve some of our more important missing or low-quality articles. As biographies are often a bit easier, this month we are choosing two biographies: Karl Behm, which has yet to be started, and the currently Stub-class article Nerses IV the Gracious. A barnstar will be awarded to any editor who can get these articles up to DYK quality level and ultimately selected for the DYK section of the main page.

Calendar
Thie coming month (mid-August through mid-September) includes feasts dedicated to the honor of Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Bartholomew the Apostle, Nativity of Mary, and the Exaltation of the Cross.

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, William de Chesney (sheriff), Knights of Columbus, and Angelus Silesius were promoted to GA level. Our thanks and congratulations to all those involved.

Wikimedia Foundation report

Wikinews is our sister site for developing news stories. Several events relating to Christianity, like the installation of bishops for instance, do not necessarily merit extensive coverage in wikipedia encyclopedic articles, but can and easily could be covered at greater length in a news article format. Given the number of significant news events that relate to religion, including claims of miracles, assignment of bishops and other religious leaders, church conferences, and other events, this site provides an excellent opportunity to provide in-depth coverage of current events at greater length than wikipedia.

Christian art

Christ Crucified by Diego Velazquez.

Spotlight

One of our newer editors, User:David_FLXD, has recently gone through much of our content related to Methodism and assessed it. We are very grateful for his efforts, and that of all the editors who have had a role in developing that content. We have every reason to believe that this will make it significantly easier for the Methodism work group to create and develop content relevant to Methodism. To help that along, we certainly encourage everyone to do what they can to help David and the other Methodism editors to bring the content relevant to their tradition to the highest possible level of quality.

I believe
... in the Holy Trinity, the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion, the Arminian conception of free will through God's prevenient grace, and the regular renewal of the individual's covenant with God. I am a Methodist.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

Steven Zhang's Fellowship Slideshow

In this issue:

• Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
• Research: The most recent DR data
• Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
• Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
• DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
• Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
• Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->

--The Olive Branch 18:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity September 2012 newsletter

ICHTHUS

September 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 344 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, User:Floating Boat, User:Dewey420, and User:Jpacobb. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. We have recently added some new sections to the newsletter. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

by User:Diliff The Chapel of Keble College, Oxford

Contest of the month
We currently have a remarkable lack of Wikipedia:Wikipedia-Books. Right now, Category:Wikipedia books on Christianity contains only 12 books. We certainly could have at least one book on each major grouping within Christianity. One of the challenges for this month, then, is working to put together books on relevant topics. For this month, one contest is for editors to assemble the basic Wikipedia books for each of the main topics of the extant related projects. When finished, they should their creation of the books at the main Christianity noticeboard, and at the end of the month the project will award barnstars to those who have made a significant efforts in developing this underdeveloped content.

Also this month, we are going to have have a challenge to create and improve some of our more important missing or low-quality articles. Last month's challenge articles were Karl Beth and Nerses IV the Gracious. Both articles are currently candidates for the DYK section of the main page. This month's challenge articles are the Stub-class article James Hastings and the not yet started Rudolf Sohm, A barnstar will be awarded to any editor who can get these articles up to DYK quality level and ultimately selected for the DYK section of the main page.

Calendar
Thie coming month (mid-September through mid-October) includes feasts dedicated to the honor of the Martyrs of Korea, Saint Matthew, Vincent de Paul, Michaelmas, Saint Jerome, Theresa of Lisieux, the Feast of the Guardian Angels, Francis of Assisi, Our Lady of the Rosary, and Teresa of Avila.

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, Albertus Soegijapranata, and Reginald Heber were promoted to FA. Grade I listed churches in Greater Manchester was promoted to Featured List, and Jackie Hudson, Joyce Kilmer, Divine command theory, Bosa of York and Argument from morality were promoted to GA level. DYKs featured this past month include Church of Saint Benoit, Istanbul, All Saints Church, Hollingbourne, Neustädter Kirche, Hannover, St Mary's Church, Kirkby Lonsdale, Albert Ndongmo, If We Are the Body, List of places of worship in Tonbridge and Malling, Kulubnarti church, All Saints Church, Ulcombe, Val-Saint-Lambert Abbey, Igny Abbey, Church of the Holy Archangels Michael and Gabriel, Brăila, Places of Worship Registration Act 1855, Collegiate Church of San Gimignano, and St Matthew's Church, Burnley. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Wikimedia Foundation report

As some of you may have seen, the Simple English Wikipedia has been experiencing some difficulties lately. This particular entity could be of great value to several individuals who are trying to learn English. As some of you who do speak foreign languages know, one of the most easily available, and, in general, useful learning aids for people is a text they know already, which allows them to focus on the specific words of the new language. Various recorded readings and translations of the Bible are among the best examples of this. Any efforts to try to enhance this vital means of informing a large segment of our readership is more than welcome. People interested in helping develop it are encouraged to leave a note regarding their specific articles of interest at the Christianity noticeboard. It would be wonderful if we could report some significant contributions to this sister site next month. And, of course, if we do have something to report, those involved would receive our greatest thanks.

Christian art

The Guardian Angel by Pietro da Cortona.

Spotlight

WikiProject Calvinism is one of our more important subprojects. It is specifically devoted to developing content relating to the Calvinist tradition, and the primary point for development of content relating to the Pilgrims, Presbyterians, Reformed churches, Congregational church, Reformed Baptists, and Low church. We definitely encourage everyone to do what they can to help this project develop the content relating to this extremely important Christian tradition.

I believe
... that human nature is insufficient for salvation, and the grace of God is required to do so. I believe that God has preordained who will and will not achieve salvation. I believe that Jesus's atonement was sufficient for the purposes for which it was done. I believe that God's grace is of such power that it can overcome any person's resistance. I believe that those whom God has chosen for salvation will, by the undeniable power of God, persevere in God's grace. I am a Calvinist.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

WikiProject Christianity October 2012 newsletter

ICHTHUS

September 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 347 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, User:Dplcrnj, User:Danmuz, User:Zigzig20s, and User:Jasonasosa. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. This newsletter is one of the ways we do try to help people keep up with the project. We would always welcome any input for things to be included in it or additional editors to keep it going. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

by User:Taxiarchos228, recently promoted to Featured Image St. Paul's Church, Basel

Contest of the month
For the upcoming month, the contest will be to develop content related to the Christmas season, including Advent and other related topics. Please feel free to see and take part in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Christianity noticeboard#Contest of the month - Advent/Christmas content.

One of last month's challenge articles, Rudolf Sohm, has been substantially developed by User:Jack1956 and User:StAnselm. Our deepest thanks to both of them!!

Calendar
Thie coming month (mid-October through mid-November) includes All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day and major commemorations dedicated to the honor of the Ignatius of Antioch, Luke the Evangelist, Simon the Canaanite, Saint Jude, the dedication of the Lateran Basilica, the beginning of the Nativity Fast, James of Jerusalem, Reformation Day, and others.

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, Augustinian theodicy by User:ItsZippy was promoted to FA. Grade I listed churches in Merseyside by User:Peter I. Vardy was promoted to Featured List. The images in the Church of the Month and Christian art sections of this newsletter were promoted to Featured Picture status. John Wheelwright by User:Sarnold17, Christmas Party (The Office) by User:Gen. Quon and If We Are the Body by User:Toa Nidhiki05, were promoted to GA level. DYKs featured this past month include Cathedral of Saint Demetrius, Craiova, by User:Biruitorul, Nerses IV the Gracious by User:John Carter, Church of St Candida and Holy Cross by User:BarretB, St Laurence's Church, Morland by User:Peter I. Vardy, St Mary's Church, Longfleet by User:Bermicourt, Chor von St. Bonifatius by User:Gerda Arendt, St Andrew's Church, Penrith by User:Peter I. Vardy, Holy Rosary Cathedral (Vancouver) by User:Bloom6132, Sacred Heart Cathedral (Kamloops) by User:Bloom6132, St Columba's Church, Warcop by User:Peter I. Vardy, St Oswald's Church, Ravenstonedale by User:Peter I. Vardy, and W. E. Biederwolf by User:John Foxe. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

Portrait of John Henry Newman by Sir John Everett Millais. This image was promoted this past month to FM by the work of User:Spongie555. Thank you, Spongie!

Spotlight

WikiProject Holidays/Christmas task force is the group whose purpose is to help develop the content related to the Christmas season, including Advent, New Year's, and related holidays. As many of us know, in several parts of the world, including the United States, the Christmas season is not only the time of one of the greatest holidays of the Christian liturgical year, but it is also the "make or break" time for many retailers, whose profitability for the year often depends on their success in this time of the giving of sometimes significantly expensive gifts. In other parts of the world, the winter solstice period and sometimes specifically Christmas itself means something that might surprise many Christians, like the Christmas in Japan, where Christmas is one of the times hotels receive the greatest number of, often unmarried, couples staying there for the night. The solstice season is also significant to several other religions. Many of these days are also legal holidays in several places. In Belarus, for instance, both the Western and Eastern Christmas commemorations are legal holidays. We would certainly welcome the members of this project to donate some of their time and talents in the upcoming months to improving this significant content.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your Family

Happy Thanksgiving, Alastair Haines!
As we Pilgrims sit down at the dinner table and say our thanks, I would like to give thanks to you for your wonderful career at WP and wish you a very happy Holiday Season. Here in the U.S. it starts with Thanksgiving Day. May your turkey or ham or wallaby or beast of choice satiate you till Christmas. TRA!, my friend. Best to Felix!!!!!! ```Buster Seven Talk	A traditional Thanksgiving dinner.

WikiProject Christianity October 2012 newsletter

ICHTHUS

November 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 349 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, User:Hayayika and User:Pikachu Bros.. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. This newsletter is one of the ways we do try to help people keep up with the project. We would always welcome any input for things to be included in it or additional editors to keep it going. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

Saint-Augustin, Paris by User:Saffron Blaze

Recently promoted to Featured Image. Great work!

Contest of the month
For the upcoming month, the contest will continue with the Christmas theme, including Advent and other related topics. Please feel free to see and take part in discussion at the Christianity noticeboard.

Calendar
This coming month (mid-November through mid-December) includes the Advent season. Other major feasts are those of Margaret of Scotland, Matthew the Evangelist, Hilda of Whitby, Elizabeth of Hungary, Edmund the Martyr, the Presentation of Mary, Saint Cecilia, Clement of Rome, Catherine of Alexandria, Andrew the Apostle, Francis Xavier, Saint Barbara, John Damascene, Nicholas of Myra, Saint Ambrose of Milan, Feast of the Immaculate Conception, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Lucy of Syracuse, and others.

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, Crucifixion and Last Judgement diptych by, among others, User:Truthkeeper88, User:Ceoil, and User:Kafka Liz and Mitt Romney by User:Wasted Time R were promoted to FA. List of 2000s Christian Songs number ones by User:Toa Nidhiki05 was promoted to Featured List. The two images in the Church of the Month and Christian art sections of this newsletter were promoted to Featured Picture status, as were these two images of Michelangelo's Pieta and of Giovanni Bellini's Saint Francis in the Desert . Derek Webb by User: Pepsi2786 and others, and Scipione Piattoli by User:Piotrus were promoted to GA level. DYKs featured this past month include Archdiocese of Râmnic, by User:Biruitorul, Diocese of Caransebeş by User:Biruitorul, Wythburn Church by User:Peter I. Vardy, St. Gumbertus, Ansbach by User:Gerda Arendt, User:Dr. Blofeld, and User:Nvvchar collectively, St. Johannis, Ansbach by User:Gerda Arendt, User:Dr. Blofeld, and User:Nvvchar collectively, Nikollë Bojaxhiu by User:ZjarriRrethues, All Saints Church, Lydd by User:Dr. Blofeld, User:Rosiestep, User:Gilderien, and User:Ipigott collectively, St Mary's Church, Acton Burnell by User:Peter I. Vardy, St Eata's Church, Atcham by User:Peter I. Vardy, Nativity of St. John the Baptist Church, Piatra Neamț by User:Biruitorul, Anna Schäffer by User:Shii, List of Archbishops of Vancouver by User: Bloom6132, James Francis Carney by User:Bloom6132, St Luke's Church, Chelsea by User:PKM and User:Johnbod, Gregory Orologas by User:Alexikoua, Ambrosios Pleianthidis by User:Alexikoua, and St Giles' Church, Barrow, by User:Peter I. Vardy. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

Three scenes of the legend of the Miraculous Sacrament, in which communion wafers were reported to bleed after being stabbed, in the St. Michael and St. Gudula Cathedral, Brussels by Jean-Baptiste Capronnier. This image was promoted this past month to FM by the work of User:Alvesgaspar. Thank you, Alvesgaspar!

Spotlight

The core topics work group is the group whose specific purpose is to help identify and develop those articles which are of greatest importance to an overall understanding of the broad subject of Christianity, based on what is included in the core topics list. These articles include some of specific churches and individuals, history, philosophical and theological matters, and more. We have had some recent discussion regarding which articles should be included in this list, and it probably makes sense to revisit the selections, and try to figure out how best to work to make them high quality articles. Discussion is beginning at WT:X regarding these matters, and all input is welcome.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

Empty Chair Barnstar

— The candles you have lit will not wane. WE cannot replace you but will do our best 'till you return. B7

```Buster Seven Talk 12:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter - December 2012

ICHTHUS

December 2012

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 350 active members. We would like to welcome our newest member, User:Harishrawat11. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. We would be able to achieve nothing here without the input of all of you. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. This newsletter is one of the ways we do try to help people keep up with the project. We would always welcome any input for things to be included in it or additional editors to keep it going. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

This image of The Baptistry of Saint John in Pisa by User:NotFromUtrecht

was recently promoted to Featured Image. Thank you and congratulations for the great image!

Contest of the month
As I imagine many of our editors will be editing at a greatly reduced level for the next few weeks, what with the Christmas and New Year's holidays coming, there is no specific content-related contest this month. The contest, if anything, is to make the most of the season, in whatever way, if any, you deem appropriate.

Calendar
This coming month (mid-December through mid-January) includes the Advent season, and one of the two greatest holidays of the Christian year, Christmas. Other major feasts in the next month include those of the Feast of the Epiphany, Baptism of the Lord, Saint Stephen, Thomas the Apostle, Holy Innocents, John the Evangelist, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, Saint Genevieve, Elizabeth Ann Seton, and Saint Sava.

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, Anne Hutchinson nominated by User:Sarnold17 was promoted to FA. Grade I listed churches in Lancashire by User:Peter I. Vardy was promoted to Featured List. The image in the Church of the Month and Christian art sections of this newsletter were promoted to Featured Picture status. Come to the Well by User:Toa Nidhiki05 and others, and Dwight Christmas by User:Gen. Quon and others were promoted to GA level. DYKs featured this past month include King's Chapel, Gibraltar, by User:Prioryman, Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (Albany, New York) by User:Daniel Case, Tingsted Church by User:Ipigott and User:Rosiestep, St. Mary's Church (Albany, New York) by User:Daniel Case, Stubbekøbing Church by User:Ipigott and User:Rosiestep, Notre Dame Cathedral (Phnom Penh) by User:Bloom6132, and St. James' Church, Cardington by User:Peter I. Vardy. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

The nave of the Parish Church of Urtijëi. This image was created by User:Moroderen. Thank you, Moroderen!

Spotlight

In the spirit of Christmas, the spotlight for the coming month might actually best be on those people closest to you. We know that a lot of our editors here are associated in some way or another with schools, and many if not most of them are going on rather extended breaks for the holidays. This can give some of us a chance to meet up with old friends, spend time with our families and those close to us, and, in a sense, "recharge" for the new year. So, for all of you who are in some way part of that group, we wish you the very best of holidays. We hope you all return to editing after the holidays with your spirits lifted and with your energies at peak level. There are some small matters in development here as well, and it is our hope that some of them will be ready come the next newsletter. But, until then, we wish you all the happiest and holiest (if appropriate) holidays.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

• EdwardsBot (talk) 02:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter - January 2013

ICHTHUS

January 2013

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 354 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, Alliereborn, Iselilja, Peterkp, and Sosthenes12. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. We would be able to achieve nothing here without the input of all of you. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor
Ichthus is one of the ways that the WikiProject Christianity’s Outreach department helps update our members. This newsletter is one of the ways we do try to help people keep up with the project. We would always welcome any input for things to be included in it or additional editors to keep it going. Please let us know if there are changes you would like to see in the format, or if there are any particular things you would like to see included. And if you have anything you would personally like to add, by all means let us know. The talk page of the current issue is probably the best place to post such comments.

With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By John Carter

Church of the month

This image of Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Tallinn, Estonia by User:Poco a poco

was recently promoted to Featured Image. Thank you and congratulations for the great image!

Contest of the month
No particular contest this month. I am however getting rather close to getting together a more or less complete set of articles relating to different areas of Christianity which can be found in recent reference sources on the broad topic of Christianity, and about various subtopics, which I hope to have finished in the next few weeks. I wonder what the rest of you might think of, maybe, making the contests of future months be basically directed at filling in the gaps of our existing coverage of topics, like those topics given significant coverage in specialized reference works which we don't yet have content on, and giving the thanks, and rewards, whatever they might be, to those who create and develop such content. I am starting a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Christianity noticeboard#Future contests, and would very much welcome any input from interested parties in how to set it up, determine winners including how many winners, etc.

By John Carter

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report, the image in the "Church of the Month" section of this newsletter was promoted to Featured Image status.

Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes, BWV 40 by Gerda Arendt and others, Teuruarii IV by Lemurbaby, KAVEBEAR and others, and Peace on Earth (Casting Crowns album) by Toa Nidhiki05 and others, were all promoted to GA status.

Also this past month, the DYKs on the main page included St James' Church, Cardington by Peter I. Vardy, Bishop's Palace, Kraków by Poeticbent, Kippinge Church by Ipigott and Rosiestep, Trinitatis Church, also by Ipigott and Rosiestep, Steindamm Church by Olessi, St Laurence's Church, Church Stretton by Peter I. Vardy, Monastery of the Holy Trinity, Meteora, by Peter I. Vardy, Sonrise Church, by Aboutmovies, St. Peter's Episcopal Church (Albany, New York), by Daniel Case, All Saints Church, Claverley, by Peter I. Vardy, and Church of the Holy Virgin Mary of Lourdes, by Poeticbent. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

The Tower of Babel by Pieter Bruegel the Elder
This image was created by User:Dcoetzee. Thank you, Dcoetzee!

Spotlight

The Spotlight this month turns to the the Syriac Christianity work group. The scope of this project includes the various traditions of Syriac Christianity, including the Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, Church of the East, Syriac Orthodox Church, Chaldean Catholic Church, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, and Saint Thomas Christians. One of these groups, the Assyrian Church of the East, is considered by scholars to have probably been, for several hundred years, the largest Christian grouping in the planet, with its numerous members in Central Asia and Eastern Asia. Numerous texts, traditions, and practices unique to these groups exist, including the Jesus Sutras and the belief of the Assyrian Church of the East that the bread they use in the preparation of their Eucharist uses the same basic yeast as that used in the bread of the Last Supper itself. Sadly, given the linguistic barriers to much of the content relative to these groups, and the comparative lack of notoriety they have in the Western world, much of this content does receive less attenion, and thus less development, than much other content. There is a large amount of extremely valuable historical material here still waiting to be adequately developed by editors with an interest in the topic, and I personally very much hope that we can draw more attention to these topics, and the content related to them.

By John Carter

Calendar
This coming month (mid-January through mid-February) includes The Presentation of Christ in the Temple or Candlemas and the Conversion of Paul. Other major feasts in the next month include those of Saint Agnes, Saint Francis de Sales, Saints Timothy and Titus, Thomas Aquinas, John Bosco, Saint Agatha, Paul Miki, [{Saint Scholastica]], and Saint Anskar.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)

• EdwardsBot (talk) 03:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter April 2013

ICHTHUS

April 2013

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 357 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, Thomas Cranmer, Mr.Oglesby, and Sneha Priscilla. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. We would be able to achieve nothing here without the input of all of you. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor

We apologise for the hiatus in the publication of this newsletter due to unforseen circumstances leading to the wikibreak of John Carter, and so I have taken over as acting editor, and have taken this opportunity to move the publication date to the start of each month as planned, to better reflect on the previous month and look ahead to the next. This issue covers the period of time from mid-January to the end of March.

Since the last issue we have seen the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI and the election of Pope Francis. This has received much coverage both in the world media and on Wikipedia. While there is still much work to do, several quality articles have been written and the editors involved are thanked for their efforts.

This month we look ahead to Easter and the celebration of God's love for mankind through the crucifixion and resurrection of his Son Jesus Christ. With that, I wish you all happy reading!

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By Gilderien

Church of the month

This image of the Church of Saint Ildefonso, Portugal by Poco a poco was recently promoted to Featured Image. Thank you and congratulations for the great image!

Contest of the month
No particular contest this month. I am however getting rather close to getting together a more or less complete set of articles relating to different areas of Christianity which can be found in recent reference sources on the broad topic of Christianity, and about various subtopics, which I hope to have finished in the next few weeks. I wonder what the rest of you might think of, maybe, making the contests of future months be basically directed at filling in the gaps of our existing coverage of topics, like those topics given significant coverage in specialized reference works which we don't yet have content on, and giving the thanks, and rewards, whatever they might be, to those who create and develop such content. I am starting a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Christianity noticeboard#Future contests, and would very much welcome any input from interested parties in how to set it up, determine winners including how many winners, etc.

By John Carter

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report;

Grade I listed churches in Cumbria was promoted to Featured List status, thanks to Peter I. Vardy, and the image above of the Church of Saint Ildefonso was promoted to featured picture status.

Martin Luther King, Jr., by Khazar2, was promoted to GA status, as well Third Epistle of John by Cerebellum.

Also these past months, the DYKs on the main page included St Mary's Church, Cleobury Mortimer by Peter I. Vardy; Marion Irvine by Giants2008; Margaret McKenna by Guerillero; Archdiocesan Cathedral of the Holy Trinity by Epeefleche; St Edith's Church, Eaton-under-Heywood by Peter I. Vardy; Vester Egesborg Church by Ipigott, Rosiestep, Nvvchar, and Dr. Blofeld; Undløse Church by Ipigott, Rosiestep, Nvvchar, and Dr. Blofeld; St Martin's Church, Næstved by Ipigott, Rosiestep, Nvvchar, and Dr. Blofeld; St. Peter, Syburg by Gerda Arendt and Dr. Blofeld; Østre Porsgrunn Church by Strachkvas; Church of Our Saviour (Mechanicsburg, Ohio) by Nyttend; Dami Mission by Freikorp; Mechanicsburg Baptist Church by Nyttend; Acheiropoietos Monastery, by Proudbolsahye; T. Lawrason Riggs, by Gareth E Kegg; McColley's Chapel, by Mangoe; Oświęcim Chapel, by BurgererSF; Second Baptist Church (Mechanicsburg, Ohio), by Nyttend; Church of the Holy Ghost, Tallinn, by Yakikaki; Old Stone Congregational Church, by Orladyl Heath Chapel, by Peter I. Vardy; St. Joseph's Church, Beijing, by Bloom6132; Church of St Bartholomew, Yeovilton, by Rodw; and St. Michael's Catholic Church (Mechanicsburg, Ohio) also by Nyttend. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

Complete recording

Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe, BWV 22, a cantata by the German composer J.S. Bach, was promoted to GA this month and was written by Gerda Arendt. Many thanks for her continuing work in the area of early 18th Century Church music.

Spotlight

The Spotlight this month turns to the the Jesus work group. The scope of this project includes the life and teachings of the central figure of Christianity, Jesus Christ and aims to write about them in a non-denominational encylopædic style. Top-priority articles include Jesus, Christ, Resurrection of Jesus, and Holy Grail, whereas High-priority articles include Aramaic Language, a former FA, as well as Sermon on the Mount, Lamb of God, and Passion (Christianity). The workgroup has also published two books, covering Christ's final days and the Parables of Jesus. The workgroup has two GAs, Nativity scene, and Jesus in Islam, but unfortunately the flagship article, Jesus was delisted in 2009. It is also responsible for three WP:1.0 articles, and the WikiWork of the project is 4.56, which indicates the "average" article is between Start and C class.

By Gilderien

Calendar
This coming month (end-March through end-April) includes Easter Sunday in Western Christianity and both Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday for the Eastern Orthodox Church. Other major feasts in the next month include those of Saint George, Saint Mark the Evangelist, Saint Stanislaus, James, son of Zebedee, and Benedict the Moor.

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Help requests
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EdwardsBot (talk) 12:45, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter (May 2013)

ICHTHUS

May 2013

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 363 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, Pleonic, MJWilliams1998, Iloilo Wanderer, Jkadavoor, Sir Ian and McBenjamin. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. We would be able to achieve nothing here without the input of all of you. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

From the Editor

This month we hear the news that the Bible is to be made into a film after outstanding success of a biblical miniseries on the History Channel, and we have seen the release of Iraqi Pastor Ali Hamzah from his confinement in Iraq.

After last month's spotlight on the Jesus work group, the flagship article, Jesus, was nominated for Good Article status after much work from FutureTrillionaire and History2007, and provisionally passed by the reviewer, although they have requested a second opinion. Our many thanks for the hard work that has gone into restoring this article to a quality piece of work.

This month the second largest denomination of Christianity, the Eastern Orthodox Church, celebrates Easter and the death and resurrection of the Son of God Jesus Christ.

P.S. Please click here to add the new Christianity noticeboard to your watchlist to follow the latest discussions relevant to WikiProject Christianity and subprojects.

By Gilderien

Church of the month

Wells Cathedral was this month promoted to GA status. Rodw has appealed for any help project members can give to improve this article for a FA nomination.

Contest of the month
No particular contest this month. I am however getting rather close to getting together a more or less complete set of articles relating to different areas of Christianity which can be found in recent reference sources on the broad topic of Christianity, and about various subtopics, which I hope to have finished in the next few weeks. I wonder what the rest of you might think of, maybe, making the contests of future months be basically directed at filling in the gaps of our existing coverage of topics, like those topics given significant coverage in specialized reference works which we don't yet have content on, and giving the thanks, and rewards, whatever they might be, to those who create and develop such content. By John Carter

Featured content and GA report
Since the last report;

Featured report; Madonna in the Church, by Ceoil, Truthkeeper88, and Johnbod was promoted to Featured Article status. Crucifixion and Last Judgement was promoted to featured picture status, after nomination by Crisco 1492.

Wells Cathedral, by Rodw, Robert of Ghent, by User:Ealdgyth, Christianity in Medieval Scotland, by Sabrebd, and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, also by Sabrebd were promoted to GA status.

Also these past months, the DYKs on the main page included Lectionary 311, by Leszek Jańczuk; Herr Christ, der einig Gotts Sohn, by Gerda Arendt; Whalsay Parish Church, by Ipigott, Rosiestep, Nvvchar, Dr. Blofeld; Interpretatio Christiana, by Altenmann; First Congregational Church, Salt Lake City, by Orlady; Church of King Charles the Martyr, Royal Tunbridge Wells, by The C of E; First Church in Albany (Reformed), by Daniel Case; Pope Anastasius II, by AbstractIllusions; Iglesia de Nuestra Señora de la Palma, by Dr. Blofeld, Ipigott, Rosiestep; Colan Church, by Rosiestep, Nvvchar, Ipigott; Notre Dame Cathedral, Papeete, Bloom6132, Church of St. Wenceslaus (New Prague, Minnesota), by Elkman; St. Joseph Catholic Church (San Antonio, Texas), by Gilliam; Doubting Thomas, by Johnbod; Robert of Ghent, by Ealdgyth; and Holy Trinity Church, Holdgate, by Peter I. Vardy. Our profoundest thanks and congratulations to all those involved!

Christian art

This depiction of the Crucifixion and Last Judgement was painted by Dutch artist Jan van Eyck and promoted to Featured Picture this month.

Spotlight

SPOTLIGHT

This month, we turn our attention to the Encyclopedic articles sub-group, which aims to provide "a collection point for lists of articles contained in other reference sources relating to Christianity, which could serve as a basis for developing our own content". Created by John Carter, it is primarily a list of links, red or otherwise, for subjects which have an article in the reference works listed therein. This serves as a very useful list if any project members are "stuck for what to do" and there remains lots of potential for articles developed from this list.

By Gilderien

Calendar
This coming month (end-April through end-May) includes Easter Sunday for the Eastern Orthodox Church. Other major feasts in the next month include those of Matthias the Apostle, The Venerable Bede, and Empress Helena.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Wikipedia • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe remove yourself from the list here
EdwardsBot (talk)17:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter (June 2013)

ICHTHUS

June 2013

From the Editor

Since its formation in 2006, WikiProject Christianity has come a long way. A significant number of new articles have appeared on a wide range of topics, and the quality of some key articles has seen dramatic improvement. Yet, by the very nature of the open, crowd-sourced development environment in which we operate, as the number of pages in the project has increased at times our attention has been naturally diluted. We should of course strive for quality everywhere, but we should remember that this newsletter is called Ichthus.

Starting this month we will start a "Focus on" series, where we will try to "bring Jesus back" and focus on him. For five consecutive issues we will focus on one aspect of the study of Jesus. The goal of this series is to inform our members of what the project contains and highlight those articles which have reached quality and stability.

From this month until November we will focus on the historical Jesus, a topic which has been the subject of much discussion on article talk pages, as well as the general media. This is an important topic, and we have a good set of well referenced articles on that now. Then, starting in December we will focus on Christ, and the spiritual and theological elements that the title entails. Following that the review of the life and ministry of Jesus in the New Testament, his miracles, and parables will take place. And each month the "Bookshelf" will mention a book that fits the theme of the month.

We hope you will enjoy this journey as we present a new aspect of Jesus each month. And given that as the number of project pages increases, the ratio of those watching the pages declines, we hope that more of you will watch some of these central pages that help define this project.

Church of the month

The current building of All Saints' Church, Winthorpe in Nottinghamshire, England which was completed in 1888, is at least the third version of the church, which dates back to at least the early 13th century.

Good articles and DYKs
The article Jesus received the good article mark last month, as did Cleeve Abbey. A number of churches were featured on the main page in the DYK section in May, namely St. Lamberti, Hildesheim, Karja church, Braaby Church, St Patrick's Liverpool, Vlah Church, Freerslev Church, Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption, Mata-Utu, St. Michael's Cathedral (Sitka, Alaska), St. Lamberti, Hildesheim, Karja church, Braaby Church, St. Pierre Cathedral, Saint-Pierre, Mont Saint Michel Abbey, St Patrick's Church, Liverpool, Vlah Church, St Catherine of Siena Church, Cocking, Catedral Nuestra Señora de La Asunción, Roholte Church, Notre Dame Cathedral, Taiohae, Leicester Abbey, Caracas Cathedral, Caldey Abbey, King's Mead Priory, Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (Hong Kong) andAll Saints' Church, Winthorpe, as well as the hymn What Wondrous Love Is This.

Focus on...

THE
HISTORICAL JESUS

Did Jesus exist? Did he walk the streets of Jerusalem? The Historicity of Jesus article answers these questions with a firm affirmative. Historicity does not discuss if Jesus walked on water, but if he walked at all. The issue was the subject of scholarly debate before the end of last century, but the academic debate is almost over now. As the article discusses, virtually all academic opposition to the existence of Jesus has evaporated away now and scholars see it as a concluded issue. The discussion is now just among mostly self-published non-academics.

In 2011 John Dickson tweeted that if anyone finds a professor of history who denies that Jesus lived,he would eat a page of his Bible (Matthew 1 he said). Dickson's Bible is still safe.

The article discusses the ancient sources that relate to Jesus and how they fit together to establish that he existed. The evidence for Jesus is not just based on the Christian gospels, but by inter-relating them with non-Christian sources, and the fact that they all "fit together". Moreover, the existence of Jesus is not supported just by Christian scholars and in recent years the detailed knowledge of Jewish scholars and their discoveries (e.g. Shlomo Pines' discovery of the Syriac Josephus) has proven highly beneficial. We encourage you to read and follow the article, for the existence of Jesus is central to the existence of Christianity.

From the bookshelf

Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert Van Voorst, 2000 ISBN 0-8028-4368-9

Just a few years after its publication, Van Voorst's book has become the standard comprehensive text for the discussion of ancient sources that relate to Jesus and his historicity. This detailed yet really readable book has received wide ranging endorsements - Blomberg and Harris separately referring to it as the most comprehensive treatment of the subject.

Did you know...

A Handel manuscript

• ... that Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the initials "S. D. G.", for Soli Deo Gloria, at the beginning and end of all his church compositions to give God credit for the work, and that Handel at times did the same?

Calendar
The coming month includes days dedicated to the honor of Beheading of John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul, the Nativity of John the Baptist, and Saint Barnabas.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity.
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe remove yourself from the listhere

EdwardsBot (talk)

WikiProject Christianity Newsletter (July 2013)

ICHTHUS

July 2013

From the Editor

Welcome to the July 2013 issue of Ichthus. We focus on the chronology of Jesus, as well as looking back at the project content improved over the last month.

WP:X has gained another Featured Article, Gospel of the Ebionites, by Ignocrates. The Gospel of the Ebionites is the name scholars give to an apocryphal gospel that supposedly belonged to a sect known as the Ebionites. It consists of seven short quotations discovered in a heresiology known as the Panarion, written by Epiphanius of Salamis, and its original title remains unknown. The text is a gospel harmony composed in Greek, and is believed to have been written during the middle of the 2nd century.

St Mihangel's Church, Llanfihangel yn Nhowyn was promoted to Good Article status, as was two other welsh churches, St Enghenedl's Church, Llanynghenedl, and St Peter's Church, Llanbedrgoch.

The main page also featured several DYK hooks for articles in our project, namely Bob Fu, List of places of worship in Tandridge (district), Catholic Press, Garendon Abbey, St. John's Episcopal Church (Jersey City, New Jersey), Pargev Martirosyan, Praskvica Monastery, Heather Preceptory, St. Augustin, Coburg, Longleat Priory, St Mihangel's Church, Llanfihangel yn Nhowyn, St Enghenedl's Church, Llanynghenedl, Christianization of Moravia, Christianization of Bohemia, Repton Abbey, St Peter's Church, Llanbedrgoch, Medingen Abbey, Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, St. James on-the-Lines, and Leopold Karl von Kollonitsch.

Church of the month

St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery is part of Saint Sophia's Cathedral, Kiev in Ukraine. It is a functioning monastery that dates back to the Middle Ages.

Membership report
The parent Christianity WikiProject currently has 367 active members. We would like to welcome our newest members, Newchildrenofthealmighty, Evenssteven, Kerna96, and FutureTrillionaire. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

Focus on...

THE
HISTORICAL JESUS

When did Jesus live? When did he die? How do we know? We do, in fact, have excellent information about the time intervals for the life and death of Jesus. As in other people who lived and died in the first century, this gives an approximate date range, but still, give or take 3-4 years and we have pretty good estimates confirmed by a number of really diverse sources, ranging from inscriptions in Delphi to Roman and Jewish sources. The Chronology of Jesus article discusses how a wide variety of Christian, Jewish and Roman sources are used to establish the time-frame for the life and death of Jesus.

And all of his data fits together. For instance, the chronology of Paul had been discussed based on the Book of Acts long ago, then the Delphi Inscription is found in the 20th century in the Temple of Apollo. And guess what.. it confirms it and totally dates his trial in Corinth, which helps reaffirm the date of the crucifixion of Jesus. The same date range is independently estimated from the writings of Josephus on the Baptist's death. And it fits Isaac Newton's astronomical models for the crucifixion date as well as the independent lunar calculations of Humphreys. As that article shows, all these dates just fit together.

From the bookshelf

Chronos, kairos, Christos: nativity and chronological studies edited by J. Vardaman, E. M. Yamauchi 1989 ISBN 0-931464-50-1

This two volume book (with a very apt title) is gem-filled with scholarly research. Paul Maier's article in the first volume is a classic study on the chronology of Jesus and provides a useful summary of a number of issues.

Did you know...

Hemis monastery

• ... that the Russian journalist Nicolas Notovitch who in 1894 originated the story that there was evidence at the Hemis monastery that an adult Jesus had traveled to India, later confessed to fabricating his evidence?

Calendar
This month (July) contains the feast days of Mary Magdalene, and James, son of Zebedee.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from a variety of other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity.
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe remove yourself from the list here

EdwardsBot (talk)20:55, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

This issue was distributed on behalf of Gilderien, current editor of the Ichthus, at 20:55, 30 June 2013 (UTC). Comments and other feedback are always welcome at his talk page.

August 2013 WikiProject Christianity Newsletter

ICHTHUS

August 2013

From the Editor

Welcome to the August 2013 issue of the WikiProject Christianity newsletter. We focus on the historical Jesus and reflect on the last month.

The project has another featured picture, The ruins of Holyrood Chapel, a digitisation of an oil-on-canvas painting. Our top-importance article, Jesus, has been nominated for Featured Article status, the discussion can be seen here; Knights of Colombus has also been nominated as a FAC.

Ecgbert (bishop) and Church architecture in Scotland have both this month achieved Good Article status.

Our project had several of its articles featured in the main page DYK section, including Hinckley Priory, Little Chapel, St Peter's Church, Ropsley, Chip Ingram, St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen, Great George Street Congregational Church, St Mary's Church, Walton-on-the-Hill and Bunge church.

Our thanks go to all of those who have worked to achieve these article milestones.

Church of the month

This image, of Maillezais Cathedral and created by Selbymay was this month promoted to featured picture status.

Membership report
We would like to welcome our newest members, Thechristophermorris, Psmidi and Jchthys. Thank you all for your interest in this effort. If any members, new or not, wish any assistance, they should feel free to leave a message at the Christianity noticeboard or with me or other individual editors to request it.

Focus on...

THE
HISTORICAL JESUS

What was Jesus like? What did he preach? Did he claim to be the Messiah? Did he predict an apocalypse? What can we know about him outside a religious context? The Historical Jesus article discusses what can be known about Jesus with various degrees of probability. While scholars agree on the over all flow and outline of Jesus' life (his baptism by John, debated Jewish authorities, healings, and his crucifixion by Pilate) they have built various and diverging portraits of the rest of his life. These range from minimalist portraits that accept very little of the gospel accounts to maximalists who accept most of the accounts as historical.

The portraits of Jesus have at times been unwitting reflections of the researchers themselves, and Crossan once quipped that some authors "do autobiography and call it biography". However, the study of historical Jesus has made one thing clear: there is so much to learn about Jesus that the more one looks, the more there is to discover.

From the bookshelf

Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching by Maurice Casey 2010 ISBN 0-567-64517-7

In this book Maurice Casey not only draws on his special expertise in the Aramaic traditions and the Q source, but provides a comprehensive review of the various approaches to the historical Jesus.

Did you know...

Christian Demographics

• ... that in 1951 Christianity was the second largest religion in the world with 500 million followers, compared to 520 million Buddhists, but by 2013 it had gained the top spot with about 2.2 billion Christians?

Calendar
This month we celebrate the feasts of St Lawrence, St Bernard, and St Augustine.

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Help requests
Please let us know if there are any particular areas, either individual articles or topics, which you believe would benefit from outside help from other editors. We will try to include such requests in future issues.

Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity.
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe remove yourself from the list here

EdwardsBot (talk)22:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

--Gilderien Chat|What I've done 22:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

File:Variables.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Variables.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

File:Quantification.jpg listed for deletion

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File:Distributive.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Distributive.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Sydney September 2013 edit-a-thon invite

Hi there! You are cordially invited to an edit-a-thon this Saturday (21 September) in Sydney at the State Library of New South Wales (SLNSW), where you can collaborate with other Wikipedians throughout the day. Andy Carr, a senior librarian at SLNSW will also be helping out. The theme of the edit-a-thon is paralympics sports, but you are free to come along to meet other wiki contributors, and edit other topics.

If you are unable to attend in person, we will also be collaborating online. Details and an attendee list are at Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/September 2013. Hope you can make it! John Vandenberg 04:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

(this automated message was delivered using replace.py to all users in Wikipedians in Sydney)

Precious

perspective
Thank you, qualified consumer, reader and beneficiary, for contributions on scientific background to quality articles such as Nahuatl, for pointing out the difference between admired men and women, for "I've not lost perspective, though, Wiki is not flawed beyond hope, it's just a long way from being perfect. That's nothing to be ashamed of, it's an opportunity for good people to take responsibility and improve things.", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Precious and missed

MfD nomination of User:Alastair Haines

User:Alastair Haines, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Alastair Haines and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Alastair Haines during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. UltraMario64 (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Merry Christmas and Happy New year

Hello! Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a prosperous 2021 on the behalf of Christmas task force of WikiProject Holidays.

Happy holidays!

Wishing you a joyful Christmas and a happy New year. We would like to use this occasion for giving thanks for editors like you for your works on editing, maintaining and expanding this encyclopedia. May the glorious message of peace and love fill you with joy during this wonderful season.

You can do!

• Improve and assess the articles listed in Category:Christmas and its subpages. (list of categories)
• Feel free to add christmas=yes to the Wikiproject banners {{WikiProject Holidays}} or {{WikiProject Christianity}} in the articles related to Christmas. This will help to automatically place it into Category:Christmas task force articles.
• Tag articles under the scope of our project.
• Recruit interested editors to the project.
• Collect categories, resource links, and templates.
• Feel free to develop missing articles related to this topic - some of them can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Holidays/Christmas task force/Reference sources articles list.
• Bring former featured articles and good articles back to their status.
• Visit Wikipedia:WikiProject Holidays/Christmas task force/Article alerts page for recent changes on project.
• Feel free to participate in the process of revival of task force.

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Recent...

Featured article

• Trading Places- a 1983 American comedy film directed by John Landis and written by Timothy Harris and Herschel Weingrod.

Featured article candidate

• Die Hard-a 1988 American action film directed by John McTiernan and written by Jeb Stuart and Steven E. de Souza.

Good Article

• Home Alone-a 1990 American Christmas family comedy film directed by Chris Columbus.

DYK

• One Voice at Christmas-a 2016 Christmas album by the Welsh singer Aled Jones and produced by Classic FM.

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"Christmas is not a time nor a season, but a state of mind. To cherish peace and goodwill, to be plenteous in mercy, is to have the real spirit of Christmas!"

-Calvin Coolidge

Quotations related to Calvin Coolidge at Wikiquote

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Sent by Path slopu (talk) on behalf of WikiProject Holidays, WikiProject Christianity and their related projects. © Copyleft 2020

• Wikiproject Holidays
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--MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Biblical Archaeology Society for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Biblical Archaeology Society is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biblical Archaeology Society until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

jps (talk) 23:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Gender classes in English

Template:Gender classes in English has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Ten Pound Hammer • <sup>(What did I screw up now?)</sup> 00:41, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Hume on induction

Template:Hume on induction has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Nigej (talk) 10:19, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Inevitability.jpg

⚠

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Modern English personal pronouns (table)

Template:Modern English personal pronouns (table) has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Holiday Greetings

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, people's rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension. Happy Holidays to you and yours. I hope you still visit these pages every once in a while. A recent gathering of editors has sent me into a time-travel loop to revisit the distant past where I stumbled upon our sharing's of long ago. What a Joy it was to remember what it was like to have you as a WikiFriend. Your talk page was one of the few oases I had. Life is GOOD. Hope the same for you. ―Buster7 ☎