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Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini

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Sections and Copy Editing

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I started taking a stab at doing some copy editing on this page. There are good building blocks to create a cohesive narrative but needs some brainstorming on the structure. I moved some pieces around (e.g. moving the UN report and Iranian Government investigation under the Circumstances of Death) to create a narrative that reads easily. Before doing do leaving this note to solicit ideas on how the page should be structured. Right now it is the following (after my copy edits)

  1. Background
  2. Circumstances of Death (including reports of UN and Iran Government)
  3. Protests (removing the tag of Streets and merging that part of main narrative and just leaving the Social media tag. Didn't edit any of the content)
  4. Reactions (here I tried some structure of a) In Iran b) Institutions outside of Iran c) Individuals outside of Iran d) Memorials e) Sanctions
  5. Anniversary (didn't change here)

Sections 4 and 5 seem to have a lot of overlap, not sure how to clean it up yet.

Kurdish-Iranian

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Should Mahsa be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence? TarnishedPathtalk 12:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Levivich, @Semsûrî, @HistoryofIran, @Accuratehistoryofkurdistan and @Beccaynr as editors involved in the discussion at Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPathtalk 12:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Masha should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per:
  1. Associated Press [1] the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  2. Reuters [2] Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini
  3. Agence France-Presse (via France24) [3] Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin
  4. BBC News [4] the 22-year-old Kurd
  5. Al Jazeera Media Network [5] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian
  6. The New Arab [6] a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  7. Australian Broadcasting Corporation [7] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  8. The Times (UK) [8] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  9. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [9] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  10. Le Monde [10] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin
  11. France24 [11] Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd
  12. Deutsche Welle [12] death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman
  13. The Hindu [13] Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin
  14. The Jerusalem Post [14] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd
  15. Times of Israel [15] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  16. Haaretz [16] Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini
  17. New York Times [17] 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
  18. The Washington Post [18] The Kurdish woman, 22
  19. Wall Street Journal [19] Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd
  20. CNN [20] Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman
  21. NPR [21] the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
  22. PBS [22] 22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini
  23. NBC News [23] 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  24. ABC News [24] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death
  25. CBS News [25] The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  26. Politico [26] Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman
  27. The Hill [27] 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  28. Forbes [28] Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez
  29. Bloomberg News [29] the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman
  30. The Lancet [30] Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  31. Amnesty International [31] Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority
  32. Council on Foreign Relations [32] Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman
TarnishedPathtalk 12:08, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Credit to @Levivich for compiling that list. TarnishedPathtalk 12:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not per MOS:ETHNICITY. She died due to being a woman, as they are constantly discriminated by the regime, which the article also mentions. I have nothing more to say about this. Bests. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - MOS:ETHNICITY says Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability, and the 32 sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. I'm not going to speculate about whether she died because she was a woman or because she was Kurdish or because she didn't properly wear a hijab or because she resisted an attack in the van or from natural causes or for some other reason or a combination of these reasons. Whatever the reason, the sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. Levivich (talk) 19:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur, we should follow the sources. TarnishedPathtalk 02:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead

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Should Masha Amini be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead?

This has previously been discussed at Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#"Kurdish-Iranian" at Mahsa Amini, Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian and Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini#Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPathtalk 02:26, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead)

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  • Yes, they should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per the following sources which refer to their ethnicity as being Kurdish:
  1. Associated Press [33] the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  2. Reuters [34] Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini
  3. Agence France-Presse (via France24) [35] Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin
  4. BBC News [36] the 22-year-old Kurd
  5. Al Jazeera Media Network [37] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian
  6. The New Arab [38] a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  7. Australian Broadcasting Corporation [39] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  8. The Times (UK) [40] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  9. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [41] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  10. Le Monde [42] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin
  11. France24 [43] Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd
  12. Deutsche Welle [44] death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman
  13. The Hindu [45] Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin
  14. The Jerusalem Post [46] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd
  15. Times of Israel [47] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  16. Haaretz [48] Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini
  17. New York Times [49] 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
  18. The Washington Post [50] The Kurdish woman, 22
  19. Wall Street Journal [51] Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd
  20. CNN [52] Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman
  21. NPR [53] the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
  22. PBS [54] 22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini
  23. NBC News [55] 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  24. ABC News [56] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death
  25. CBS News [57] The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  26. Politico [58] Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman
  27. The Hill [59] 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
  28. Forbes [60] Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez
  29. Bloomberg News [61] the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman
  30. The Lancet [62] Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
  31. Amnesty International [63] Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority
  32. Council on Foreign Relations [64] Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman

Credit to Levivich for putting together the list of sources. TarnishedPathtalk 02:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Pinging @Levivich, @Semsûrî, @HistoryofIran, @Accuratehistoryofkurdistan and @Beccaynr as editors involved in the discussion at Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1#Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian. TarnishedPathtalk 12:50, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No She was born in Iran and unless she had some kind of duel citizenship the closest example at MOS:NATIONALITY is Isaac Asimov. Per the guidance of MOS:ETHNICITY, we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance. This seems important enough to mention in the second sentence, but as far as the option presented in this RFC, Kurdish-Iranian isn't supported by MOS:ETHNICITY. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes per MOS:ETHNICITY, which says Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability, and the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. Levivich (talk) 22:10, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. MOS:NATIONALITY mentions exceptions, discussing the Spanish regional identities, which the status of Kurds is probably closer to, especially given it was relevant in the circumstances that lead to her death, plus the sources do it as shown above. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. While her 'Kurdish-ness' does not seem immediately significant, the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Wikipedia. per Levivich. Pincrete (talk) 07:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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