Talk:Barack Obama
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
| This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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New image?
[edit]The image at the top of this page is currently Obama's official 2012 portrait, which is quite dated considering it's about 14 years old. Would it be a good idea to replace it with a more recent image? He's aged quite a bit since 2012 and has grey hair now, so a more recent photo would be more representative of his current physical appearance. There are some good photos on Commons from 2022, such as this and this, and he will be at the DNC soon so a 2024 photo may arise shortly. Any opinions? Di (they-them) (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Di (they-them) I think the current picture is appropriate since it shows Obama when he was president i.e. most relevant. We do that with other presidents as well, with most (if not all) having pictures from the time they were president.
- That said, the most recent picture in the article seems to be from 2015, which is almost a decade ago, and I agree that a more recent picture should be included. Cortador (talk) 06:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's 2017 and 2022 in there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I missed those. 2022 seems fine to me. Cortador (talk) 07:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's 2017 and 2022 in there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose. Former presidents before Obama use their official portraits. Same for ex-VPs and Congress officials after they retire. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 06:50, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- While it's not a written "rule" in any way, the custom seems to be that US presidents has an official presidential portrait as WP:LEADIMAGE, at least back to Lyndon B. Johnson. I think it's reasonable to stick with that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose any change to the image based on this argument. Jimmy Carter is now 99 years and almost 11 months old, and our image of him is from when he was president. We do not use a photo of a frail, emaciated Jimmy Carter in a wheelchair wearing a shawl. Lead portraits of presidents should show them while they were president. In this case, the image shows Obama in 2012, when he was approximately halfway through his eight year presidency. Seems right to me. Consider also William Howard Taft, the only president of the photographic era who served in high government office after his presidency, serving nine years as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Despite that long service as Chief Justice, our lead image of Taft shows him about the time that he was elected to his single term as president. Consider Herbert Hoover who lived over 30 years after his defeat by FDR in 1932 and we correctly use a portrait of him taken in 1928 around the time he first became president. Consider George H. W. Bush who lived about 25 years after his defeat by Bill Clinton, and we use his presidential portrait from 1989. Consider Bill Clinton who left the White House in 2001 and is still active in presidential politics. We use his 1993 presidential portrait. There is no basis for changing the lead portraits of US presidents as older people, and the general principle of to illustrate notable people at the top of their game. For every president other than FDR, that would be a maximum of eight years. But since FDR died in office, of course we show him during his 12 plus year term, specifically when he was running for his fourth term in 1944. Cullen328 (talk) 07:56, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2024
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Change
.jpg)
To
The titles of President and Vice President of the United States should be capitalized because they are governmental offices. 2601:240:4180:CB80:D0B7:E674:63D3:1DB1 (talk) 14:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Done The specific example you cited did indeed warrant capitalization per MOS:OFFICE, whereas most other uses of the terms are lowercase as they are used generically. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 14:50, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2024
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{{subst:trim|1= [(X)Y]
Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. -->
Not done: It's not clear what needs to be done, and the image you added is already in the article. ⸺(Random)staplers 17:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2024
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Change
In July 2024, Obama encouraged efforts that lead to Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, saying that his path to winning re-election had "greatly diminished."[1] Obama did, however, praise Biden's work as president, saying that "Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents" and that Biden "wouldn't make this decision unless he believed it was right for America."[2] He later endorsed presumptive nominee and vice president Kamala Harris.[3]
To
In July 2024, Obama condemned the attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump and called for a return to civility in U.S. politics.[4] He also encouraged efforts that led to Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, saying that Biden’s path to winning re-election had "greatly diminished."[5] Obama did, however, praise Biden's work as president, saying that "Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents" and that Biden "wouldn't make this decision unless he believed it was right for America."[6] He later endorsed presumptive nominee and vice president Kamala Harris.[7] 2601:240:4180:CB80:151F:3ACD:A4CA:23CA (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Done Added as a separate sentence since the events aren't related, thanks. Jamedeus (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- It strikes me as bloat. Condemning an assassination attempt is par for the course. Nobody expected him not to condemn it. It is like expressing condolences. It is especially jarring as a standalone paragraph. Surtsicna (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Pager, Tyler; Scherer, Michael (2024-07-18). "Obama tells allies Biden's path to winning reelection has greatly diminished". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-07-21.
- ^ Obama, Barack (July 21, 2024). "Bill and Hillary Clinton Endorse Kamala Harris". Medium. Archived from the original on July 21, 2024. Retrieved July 21, 2024.
- ^ Smith, David; Tait, Robert (2024-07-26). "Barack Obama endorses Kamala Harris for president in 2024 US election". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2024-07-26.
- ^ Samuels, Brett (July 13, 2024). "Obama condemns apparent shooting at Trump rally, wishes former president 'quick recovery'". The Hill. Retrieved July 14, 2024.
- ^ Pager, Tyler; Scherer, Michael (2024-07-18). "Obama tells allies Biden's path to winning reelection has greatly diminished". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-07-21.
- ^ Obama, Barack (July 21, 2024). "Bill and Hillary Clinton Endorse Kamala Harris". Medium. Archived from the original on July 21, 2024. Retrieved July 21, 2024.
- ^ Smith, David; Tait, Robert (2024-07-26). "Barack Obama endorses Kamala Harris for president in 2024 US election". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2024-07-26.
Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2024
[edit] | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change
In July 2024, Obama encouraged efforts that lead to Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, saying that his path to winning re-election had "greatly diminished."[1] Obama did, however, praise Biden's work as president, saying that "Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents" and that Biden "wouldn't make this decision unless he believed it was right for America."[2] He later endorsed presumptive nominee and vice president Kamala Harris.[3]
To
Obama condemned the assassination attempt on former President Trump on July 13, 2024, wishing Trump a quick recovery and called for a restoration of “civility and respect” in politics.[4] Additionally, Obama encouraged efforts that led to President Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, saying that his path to winning re-election had "greatly diminished."[5] Obama did, however, praise Biden's work as president, saying that "Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents" and that Biden "wouldn't make this decision unless he believed it was right for America."[6] He later endorsed presumptive nominee and vice president Kamala Harris.[7] 2601:240:4180:CB80:5572:2442:68D0:5998 (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Pager, Tyler; Scherer, Michael (2024-07-18). "Obama tells allies Biden's path to winning reelection has greatly diminished". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-07-21.
- ^ Obama, Barack (July 21, 2024). "Bill and Hillary Clinton Endorse Kamala Harris". Medium. Archived from the original on July 21, 2024. Retrieved July 21, 2024.
- ^ Smith, David; Tait, Robert (2024-07-26). "Barack Obama endorses Kamala Harris for president in 2024 US election". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2024-07-26.
- ^ Samuels, Brett (July 13, 2024). "Obama condemns apparent shooting at Trump rally, wishes former president 'quick recovery'". The Hill. Retrieved July 14, 2024.
- ^ Pager, Tyler; Scherer, Michael (2024-07-18). "Obama tells allies Biden's path to winning reelection has greatly diminished". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-07-21.
- ^ Obama, Barack (July 21, 2024). "Bill and Hillary Clinton Endorse Kamala Harris". Medium. Archived from the original on July 21, 2024. Retrieved July 21, 2024.
- ^ Smith, David; Tait, Robert (2024-07-26). "Barack Obama endorses Kamala Harris for president in 2024 US election". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2024-07-26.
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit semi-protected}}template. It appears you previously requested this edit, it was done, and then it was reverted by @Surtsicna: (see Special:Diff/1244062399 meamemg (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
He is not African-American!
[edit]He is American, but not descendant of American chattel slavery. 69.121.109.19 (talk) 22:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- Where is his father from? Who ever said that to be African American you must be
descendant of American chattel slavery
? – Muboshgu (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. I know American racial labels are often illogical, but to say an American with an African father is not African-American is pushing that lack of logic too far. HiLo48 (talk)
- He's widely (nearly universally) referred to as African American in the sources, so it's appropriate for us to use the term here. I was going to say that people who want to know about the nuances of meaning of the term can just click through to African-American and read about it there, but then I realized we had the link pointing to an article about African American presidents in pop culture. So I fixed that, and now anyone who wants to know the nuances of meaning of the term and its relationship with the history of American chattel slavery can click through to African-American which covers the subject in depth. Thanks for bringing this to our attention! -- LWG talk 16:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- This view exist, see American Descendants of Slavery, but it is not atm the prevailing one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
He wasn’t president in 2017
[edit]Idk why it says that but it isn’t true 72.74.28.171 (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
- His term ended on January 20th, 2017, so he was still President during those nineteen days, plus twelve hours. CRBoyer 23:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2024
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In the section "Presidency -> Domestic Policy" the subheader for "Same-sex marriage" should be formatted as a subheader. Currently it is accidentally just normal text.
In the source:
Same-sex marriage
[edit]Should change to:
====Same-sex marriage==== Barrtender (talk) 20:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done. The error seems to have been in the article for a while, thanks for pointing it out.--Commander Keane (talk) 01:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- It has been reversed, correctly. The subheader level 5 looks like normal text on mobile, thus stands out like a saw thumb. Also on mobile you never get to see the nesting illustrated in the table of contents. Desktop is another story. Interestingly I checked the level of the heading directly above (LGBT rights) but didn't make the connection between the sections (probably my own bias considering same-sex marriage a civil fundamental civil right rather than an LGBT thing). Commander Keane (talk) 03:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2024 (2)
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He was not the first African American President. Hamilton was. 74.70.210.158 (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Alexander Hamilton was never the President.CRBoyer 23:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2024
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Check this particular edit: [4].
As a member of the Democratic Party, he was the first African-American president in U.S. history.
Am I alone at thinking that this sentence is slightly confusing because it lacks the logical flow that is expected in a sentence starting with "As"? "As it's late, I'm going to bed". Or compare with these two examples that make a lot more sense in my opinion:
As the son of a Kenyan national, he was the first African-American president in U.S. history.
As a member of the Democratic Party, he was elected U.S. President.
I would suggest to go back to the original:
A member of the Democratic Party, he was the first African-American president in U.S. history.
Thanks. Truc Bizarre (talk) 11:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Truc Bizarre I think it is fine as is, it implies he was a member of the Democratic party when he was president, he still is, but I think it is fine. Seawolf35 HGAV (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done I'm actually going to agree with Truc Bizarre here, the "as" infers a correlation between the two clauses that doesn't exist, so I removed it. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
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