Wikidata:Property proposal/cadastral plot reference

cadastral plot reference

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place

   Not done

Description	identifier of plot or particular area of land in the cadastre of a town or other locality. If available, use more specific unique identifier properties for the value.
Represents	no label (Q108102235)
Data type	String
Allowed values	per numbering used in a given cadastre. Generally unique within a cadastral district on a given point in time.
Example 1	Cordouan Lighthouse (Q199234) → 1 [1]
Example 2	Ancien cimetière de l'église de la Madeleine (Q26419561) → 109 [2]
Example 3	Q1520341 → 679 [3]
Example 4	Q26836639 → 476 [4]
Example 5	Eggendorf Kapelle GstNr 870 (Q37813246) → 870 [5]
Example 6	Aspersdorf Presshaus GstNr 12 (Q37789735) → 12 [6]
Example 7	Weißes Schloss (Q47015213) → 208 [7]
Expected completeness	always incomplete (Q21873886)
See also	associated cadastral district (P10254): cadastral district in which a place is located or is part of. Use only if distinct from administrative entities (P131) in predefined countries Finnish real property ID (P10364): unique identifier of real property in Finland (Kiinteistötunnus). Format: nnn-nnn-nnnn-nnnn French Etalab parcel visualization code (P9643): visualization code of an Etalab cadastral parcel in France Italian cadastre code (municipality) (P806): identifier for an Italian comune in the cadastre Czech cadastral area ID (P7526): identifier for a cadastral area in the Czech Republic, conferred by 'Český úřad zeměměřický a katastrální' cadastral municipality ID in Austria (P8322): identifier for cadastral municipalities of Austria (Katastralgemeinde-Nummer); format: 5 digits; different from "Austrian municipality key" (P964) Jurisdiction List number (P7925): distinct number used to identify a mauza or village in Bangladesh and parts of India

Motivation

We had this as Wikidata:Property proposal/numéro de parcelle before, but somehow I struggled with finding a good translation to English. In the meantime, we have associated cadastral district (P10254) which uses the same terminology (in English). Hope it's better now.

Also, there is Wikidata:Property proposal/Finnish real property ID that provides a countrywide unique identifier. In general, if an identifier for a country or larger area can be done, I think that would be preferable (Add your motivation for this property here.) --- Jura 12:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• @ArthurPSmith, Azertus, Circeus: who participated in the previous discussion.
• @Susannaanas, Trogain, TuukkaH: who are sorting out the external-id for Finland.
• @Maincomb, Emu, Arbnos, MasterRus21thCentury, JAn Dudík: from the discussion about associated cadastral district (P10254).

--- Jura 12:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

•  Support In Austria, it is called "Grundstücksnummer" ("Gst. Nr.") and already used sometimes, like in Eggendorf Kapelle GstNr 870 (Q37813246). --Maincomb (talk) 15:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the sample, I added it above. --- Jura 10:15, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
•  Support I like this property. Regarding the aliases to be added after creation, I would like to point out that there are different names for them in Germany. In the Wikipedia articles of the German examples, the "Parzellennummer" is mentioned. At least in Saxony it is called Flurstücksnummer. As an example, I would cite the German-language article Weißes Schloss, where the Flurstücksnummer of the former castle is mentioned. --Gymnicus (talk) 07:56, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the additional sample. Also, I completed the terminology at Q108102235 accordingly. --- Jura 15:07, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
•  Support —MasterRus21thCentury (talk) 12:54, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
•  Oppose It is not a universal concept, it varies for each state. Since we don't know the administrative entity to which it relates (district, city, region, etc.), linking to a number is imprecise; the identifier should contain all the information. Please see the questions this has raised on Wikidata:Property proposal/cadastral plot in France. — Baidax ^💬 18:40, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  This isn't meant to be a unique identifier (contrary your non-official Etalab one), so it has string datatype, similar to house number (P670). Maybe you have an alternative proposal for samples 1 and 2 (both from France). --- Jura 18:56, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Jura: A street number is used as a qualifier with a specified street item. Here, the information of the administrative entity to which the number relates is missing. It is therefore both a mixture of legal systems and a lack of precision. — Baidax ^💬 19:54, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  As one may notice in the samples, the cadastral reference is sometimes included to describe a given concept.

  What alternative do you propose for the samples given above? --- Jura 19:59, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Jura: Since the jurisdictions are not the same, perhaps there should be a distinction by state? There are probably some that should exist with full IDs. Or it should be put as a qualifier for one of the existing properties (but that would be clumsy). — Baidax ^💬 20:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  If there is a better solution, I'd be all for it, but I suppose I'd have to see a working alternative samples to tell.

  I don't think this needs to have the precision of an identifier. If something like Finnish real property ID (P10364) is available, use that. --- Jura 21:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

•  Comment I like the idea but cadastre is complicated and it needs more thinking (for instance the first examples feels wrong Cordouan Lighthouse (Q199234) is BW 1 not 1, the BW prefix for the cadastral division (Q18346622) is needed as there is several "1" for each commune and not all country have commune nor equivalent ; hence the diference between terms like "cadastral plot reference" and "cadastral number"). PS: what are we doing about cadastral municipality ID in Austria (P8322)? Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
•  Comment I feel that we are lackin something to made a useful cadastral refrence. Like for Magrath Mansion (Q38528516) The lot description is Lot 1, Block 9, Plan 1621197 under the PBL cadastral system of Alberta, or for St. John's the Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Egremont (Q44665716) the description if a part of Section 1, Township 59, Range 22, West of the Fourth Meridian. At other place like Qubvec. this could be far more simplier, like for Maison Jean-Joseph-Girouard (Q26458540) the lot description is Cadastre of Quebec (Q60852524) : Lot 1 555 658. How should we this different cadastres? --Fralambert (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  It's something that should be included in one way or the other. Depending on how much interest there is, a property for Cadastre of Quebec (Q60852524) could be created, similar to the one for Finland. A separate property for the lot/block/etc system used at various places could be interesting as well.

  For either, I don't think we had much demand yet. This proposal mainly aims to cover information already included in Wikipedia and Commons, which generally doesn't attempt to include "unique" identification. --- Jura 11:03, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

•  Comment As the cadastral plot reference system of each country and its jurisdiction differs, implementing a unified cadastral plot reference system through a single property is no adequate solution. I support the idea of cadastral plot references as Wikidata properties in general but strongly advocate for seperating properties based on their applicapable jurisdiction, e.g. an Austrian cadastral plot reference, a Finish cadastral plot reference, a German cadastral plot reference etc. Here in Germany, the cadastral plot reference system is based on the Gemarkung located in the administrative territorial entity (P131), the Flur (no property or item as of now) and the Flurstück land parcel (Q683595). The system applies to all 16 states of Germany. A Flurstück is either designated as a positive integer, e.g. Flurstück 1 or as a positive rational number, e.g. Flurstück 1/10 (read Flurstück Eins aus Zehn; plot one out of ten). A Flur is always a positive integer, e.g. Flur 1. Designating an individual object requires all three identification markers, since Flur and Flurstück are no unique identifiers. Multiple Flurstücke constitute a single Flur. For example Flur 1, Flurstück 1/10 could exist in Berlin, Munich or elsewhere in Germany, hence knowledge about the administrative unit is mandatory. Regards, Christoph Braun (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
•  Not done, no consensus of proposed property at this time based on the above discussion. Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 07:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)