Wikidata:Property proposal/Nom dans la langue locale
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Nom dans la langue locale
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place
Not done
| Description | Nom d'un lieu ou d'une commune dans la langue locale (dialecte, langue nationale, etc.) (fr) – (Please translate this into English.) |
|---|---|
| Data type | String |
| Example 1 | Wolschheim (Q21468)→Wolsche (En alémanique alsacien) ; Wolschheim (Q21468)→Wolschheim (En français) |
| Example 2 | Achenheim (Q22784)→Àchene (En alémanique alsacien) ; Achenheim (Q22784)→Achenheim (En français) |
| Example 3 | Lupstein (Q21528)→Lùpschte (En alémanique alsacien) ; Lupstein (Q21528)→Lupstein (En français) |
| Planned use | Ajout des noms en alémanique alsacien des communes du Bas-Rhin (67) en France. |
Motivation
[edit]Je travaille à documenter les noms des communes alsaciennes en alémanique alsacien (dialecte local) et je n'ai pas trouvé de propriété adaptée pour ajouter ces informations sur Wikidata.
J'ai repéré "Nom dans la langue d'origine" (P1705), mais cette propriété ne semble pas adaptée étant donné qu'il est difficile de nommer une langue d'origine pour des lieux qui se sont construits dans le temps.
Pour l'usage prévu, toutes les communes et tous les lieux d'habitations sont concernés, non seulement les communes du Bas-Rhin, mais c'est celles que j'ai choisi de traiter dans les prochains temps. Je pense également par exemple aux communes bretonnes qui ont des noms locaux différents de ceux en français. (Etc !)
Ainsi, je propose l'ajout d'une nouvelle propriété pour cet usage. Mickaël en résidence (talk) 09:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]
Oppose@Mickaël en résidence: I don't understand French very well (my mother tongue is Spanish), but I think there is a confusion about P1705 use. On English, it's called native label, and nombre en la lengua nativa in Spanish, and I think the French name nom dans la langue d'origine does not refer to the first language spoken in the area but the languages actually spoken, the native or local language. So, I found P1705 is just what you need. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 03:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject France. Regards Kirilloparma (talk) 00:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)- Oppose, d'accord avec Tinker. Maxime 06:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I think there can be multiple conceptions of writing a name.
- The locale name (the name very locals use everyday, for instance a Brusseler would call a street using flemish or french according to his mother tongue). The name of a Russian city for a Spanish. The name of a country that changed over time (Swaziland/eswatini)...
- The name at origin as I understand here is the name used at first appearance
- The name that someone decides it's official (eg a French toponymy bureau that decides it's "Canton" and not "Guangzhou".)
- Etc. Very complex.
- As per native label (P1705), I think there is indeed a language confusion between English : label for the items in their official language (P37) or their original language (P364) German Name der Entität in Amts- oder Originalsprache, French dans la langue originale, la chaîne de caractère nommant l'élément. Waiting for thoughts. Bouzinac 💬●✒️●💛 07:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, I made a quick SPARQL query to check the actual use for french cities, and it seems to vary a lot. Marseilles has its French name, Lyon both its French and Gallo-Roman name, Toulouse has only the Gallo-Roman (or maybe the Occitan? They are the same in this case), Montpellier only the Occitan, Clichy has the "Clichy-la-Garenne" informal name used by the municipality to distinguish from Clichy-sous-Bois but which is neither native nor original… I think that, instead of creating yet another property, we clean up the uses of P1705, maybe with and extra qualifier. -Ash Crow (talk) 08:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Did you know that the English no longer use "Marseilles"/"Lyons" nowadays ? ;) Bouzinac 💬●✒️●💛 08:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, I made a quick SPARQL query to check the actual use for french cities, and it seems to vary a lot. Marseilles has its French name, Lyon both its French and Gallo-Roman name, Toulouse has only the Gallo-Roman (or maybe the Occitan? They are the same in this case), Montpellier only the Occitan, Clichy has the "Clichy-la-Garenne" informal name used by the municipality to distinguish from Clichy-sous-Bois but which is neither native nor original… I think that, instead of creating yet another property, we clean up the uses of P1705, maybe with and extra qualifier. -Ash Crow (talk) 08:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I think there can be multiple conceptions of writing a name.
- Oppose I also think that the French label of P1705 does not reflect its spirit. Trying to find a name at the origin is a huge historical approximation to make, especially since the first mention may refer not to the settlement, but to a geographical entity which was its eponym. There is, of course, a distinction to be made with names in the local variety, names that have been adapted into a language (for instance, francization in French) and informal names, but there are already several properties that could be used (P1705, P1449, P2561 with qualifiers). — Baidax 💬 12:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Not done, no consensus of proposed property at this time based on the above discussion. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
