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For the past two days I have been awoken by loudspeakers in my neighborhood playing Soviet-themed music telling me to go vote in the elections in a radio announcer type voice.
Here are the wealth of choices I have on offer in my district:
Elena Gulnicheva, commie QT endorsed by Navalny’s “Smart Vote”. Incidentally, it looks like running pretty young women is KPRF strategy these elections.
I wasn’t able to find her platform (assuming she has one) so I assume it’s just standard KPRF fare.
Pyotr Tolstoy, my district’s candidate from United Russia, is a very based great-great-grandson of the famous writer.
The LDPR nationalist, Andrey Shah. (I don’t really know much about him or his positions, only time I recall running into him is at a speech by Zhirinovsky, he didn’t leave any memorable impressions).
Physiognomy is real, part #7294, : Presenting the pro-Western Yabloko candidate, Roman Kiselyov:
“Return yourself your future: Without fear, without lies, without dictatorship.”
Based on his Twitter banner, his political views seem to be as cartoonishly self-hating as his physiognomy is quintessentially soyish.
Fielded by the Green Party, the most colorful candidate – not just metaphorically, but also literally – is a Russian-Nigerian mulatto and professional blogger called Samson Sholademi who has promised to “slave away like a Negro” for his constituents in previous (unsuccessful) election runs.
He has a very powerful/eccentric constellation of views: Environmental activism, pro-LGBT parades, anti-vaccine mandate, an end to Roskomnadzor censorship and blasphemy laws, coupled with opposition to Article 282 (a hate speech law that was decriminalized in 2018), a visa regime with Central Asia, and pro-Crimea/Donbass and anti-Western/Ukrainian/Baltic foreign policy views. This even led Valeriya Novodvorskaya, the high priestess of the Westernist cargo cult, to call him a fascist. He denies being a fascist, insisting that he is a racist instead.
So powerful are these various viewpoints especially in combination that I seriously considered voting for him as as a fellow powerful, vibrant POC blogger.
However, in my district, the only two people who are competitive are Tolstoy and Gulnicheva, and I think I’ll take the Black Hundreds cosplayer over the commie dominatrix or the Based Black Guy.
As you can see, a powerful diversity of candidates and views, whom I can vote for through an app on my cell phone while drinking coffee in bed, after being woken up by a timely and helpful reminder from the loudspeakers.
This is what true democracy is about. I laugh at W*stoids who seem to believe Russia has no democracy. There is so much democracy here that it leaves them seething, shaking, and autistically screeching in impotent range.
Funnily enough, I have never been less interested in Russian elections than today.
I am satisfied with life and happy to vote for United Russia like an apolitical boomer.
— Anatoly Karlin 🦇🔊 (@akarlin0) September 16, 2021
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This article definitely of a different tone than the usual “everybody knows elections in Russia are fake” coming out of Westthink/Endsieg Radio.
This time Russian Duma elections are causing even Paul Robinson to reveal his power level:
https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2021/09/18/none-of-the-above-thoughts-on-two-elections/
“So there you have it. In one country, you have lots of choice, but the system’s fixed to make sure the same guys always win. In the other, it’s a fair fight – anyone can win – it just doesn’t matter who does – they’re all the same. You might say that one is rigged at the micro level, while the other is rigged at the macro level.”
(Hi PR. We know you are out there. Come to the darkside. We read old books.)
Something is in the air I think the same about God Emperor or based Boomer Biden.
Electronic voting is something that should never be done. Voting by post should be restricted to a minority who have an abiding impediment to voting in person (e.g. government employees posted abroad, active-duty military, university students away from home, long-haul truckers, shut-ins, &c). (In the U.S., maybe 10% of the population faces a situation that would justify the use of a postal ballot). Paper ballots cast in person in a cloaked booth where you’re not under observation is the only safe way to conduct an election.
(We’ve reached a point where Russia’s elections are likely cleaner than blue state elections in the US, alas).
OTOH, I can see blockchain-based voting rigorously eliminating any possibility of fraud while keeping said vote secret.Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Art Deco, @Caspar von Everec
I’m quite envious. Somehow I guessed, that come push or shove, you’d end up voting for the blackshirted one. 🙂
I am satisfied with life and happy to vote for United Russia like an apolitical boomer.
An advantage Russia has is that (by all appearances) your political class does not despise ordinary people or their ancestors. Have a gander at this:
It’s difficult to imagine such a thing being organized in the States or in Canada nowadays.
https://youtu.be/1VM2eLhvsSM?t=22Replies: @Mikhail
An advantage Russia has is that (by all appearances) your political class does not despise ordinary people or their ancestors. Have a gander at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpYmwy5tLZQ
It's difficult to imagine such a thing being organized in the States or in Canada nowadays.Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bill, @Almost Missouri
You’re right. This is the best that I could find. And even this was way back in 1971:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtZpFl3pPMReplies: @Mr. Hack
Another take with some good follow-up:
https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2021/09/18/none-of-the-above-thoughts-on-two-elections/
An amazing company you have is participating in the elections, where everyone is disgusting. Peter Tolstoy is disgusting because he is a descendant of the famous faggot Leo Tolstoy, but he is doubly disgusting because he advocated the transfer of St. Isaac’s Cathedral to parasites from the Byzantine sect ROC
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/24/a-dispute-over-st-petersburgs-grand-orthodox-cathedral-stirs-up-russias-anti-semitic-conspiracies/
A counter-point made on the claim that Peter T made an anti-Jewish comment.
Is it better to maintain the Soviet making of that church into a museum? ROC-MP has come a long way on account of the greater freedoms since the Soviet demise. In order to exist, it had to be compromising during the Soviet period.Replies: @melanf
https://youtu.be/1VM2eLhvsSM?t=22Replies: @Mikhail
Promoting globalization with a de-emphasis of patriotism, that song came up in the last episode of Mad Men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtZpFl3pPMReplies: @Mr. Hack
And of course, the corporate elite indicate in this clip that a religion based on some sort of eclectic mix of paganism/yoga is the real thing too, in place of a more traditional American adherence to Christianity. 🙁
AaronB has infiltrated the corporate elite!Replies: @Mr. Hack
The ad men going with that Coke song is indicative of how they went with the flow.
Do any or all of Leo’s descendants share all of his views? On your other point:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/24/a-dispute-over-st-petersburgs-grand-orthodox-cathedral-stirs-up-russias-anti-semitic-conspiracies/
A counter-point made on the claim that Peter T made an anti-Jewish comment.
Is it better to maintain the Soviet making of that church into a museum? ROC-MP has come a long way on account of the greater freedoms since the Soviet demise. In order to exist, it had to be compromising during the Soviet period.
Ya, my wife dragged me down to our village school Saturday , in order to show me how they vote, she must have forgotten that i was there when she voted to go home 6 or 7 years ago. lol Hey, one forgets more and more things as we age. It’s OK ! I was surprised to see 14 different political parties on the ticket . I had to laugh because in America there are only two with an independent party that is only there , to make it look good – like yippee skippy – we have a choice – Not really. She must have called out our neighbors to meet us at the polling place cause we had a crowd and – then we voted – then we all went to a Kafe’ and celebrated – like the old times they said. It was a nice thing to do on beautiful Crimea morning. Good Article for the times. !
(We've reached a point where Russia's elections are likely cleaner than blue state elections in the US, alas).Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
There’s nothing magical about in-person voting that eliminates or even reduces fraud.
OTOH, I can see blockchain-based voting rigorously eliminating any possibility of fraud while keeping said vote secret.
You can vote in person just once. That reduces fraud.
Russia at least has a relatively stable political system. The Czech Republic has 8 factions in the parliament, and the average lifespan of a government is 2.5 years. I guess our country is so insignificant, it can afford chaos.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/24/a-dispute-over-st-petersburgs-grand-orthodox-cathedral-stirs-up-russias-anti-semitic-conspiracies/
A counter-point made on the claim that Peter T made an anti-Jewish comment.
Is it better to maintain the Soviet making of that church into a museum? ROC-MP has come a long way on account of the greater freedoms since the Soviet demise. In order to exist, it had to be compromising during the Soviet period.Replies: @melanf
I don’t care about the anti – Semitic statements of this idiot, but flirting with greedy Byzantine parasites is a lifelong stigma.
Without any doubt. The cathedral has never belonged to church parasites, and it should not belong to them.
No doubt, the elections will be rigged in some regions (e.g., the official result in Chechnya is going to be an overwhelming approval of powers that be, regardless how people vote and whether they vote at all). There will be some irregularities elsewhere. Overall, Russian elections would not reach the levels of fraud “achieved” in the US in 2020. Not because Putin and his coterie are more honest, simply because they have enough genuine support in Russia, so they just don’t need fraud on such a massive scale.
BTW, considering that commie “leader” uncle Zyu is an ugly old fart, the fact that commies run pretty chicks in these elections is refreshing.
Good to see a commenter from Czech Republic. Somewhat OT: I am curious which post-Soviet states are represented here. I see commenters from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and Latvia. Are there commenters from the other eleven recognized and six semi-recognized or unrecognized post-Soviet states? Can we have a roll call?
Otherwise I can only think of Avery, but I don't know if he's originally from the Armenian SSR or another from the diaspora.Replies: @Beckow, @AP
Oh, and that 'Dacien George Soros', who reminded me a lot of utu in with his extreme bitterness, but also wrote quite witty posts.Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Haruto Rat
As far as I'm aware, nobody here is from further east/into Russia than me (Kazan) - not even anyone from the Urals, although maybe it has just not formed in natural conversation here from the topics discussed for anyone to mention they are from Tomsk or Norilsk or anywhere else.
Martyanov is from Azerbaijan
Sudden death is from Lithuania
Reinor Tor is a Hungarian, German nazi pillager anarchist - David-hasselhoff-worshipping clown
AP is a fantasist, compulsive - liar bimbo with absolute no connection to Ukraine or to an international passport
One of the people here was from Mongolia
Surprisingly, no Gruzian and not even
an ethnic Russian from any of the central Asian SSR'sReplies: @AnonfromTN
running pretty young women is KPRF strategy
It worked for our Democratic Party in the U. S.
Just look at our VP.
LOL
the corporate elite indicate in this clip that a religion based on some sort of eclectic mix of paganism/yoga is the real thing too
AaronB has infiltrated the corporate elite!
OTOH, I can see blockchain-based voting rigorously eliminating any possibility of fraud while keeping said vote secret.Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Art Deco, @Caspar von Everec
This goes not only for voting but also for signatures. Rather than having to ask my secretary to fake my signature when I’m away, it would be far more secure for me to be able to authenticate my digital signature with my private key.
“I just wanna blog for Gods sake”
I really enjoyed Mad Men, in how it resurrected the 1960s to early 1970s period in the US – particularly the Greater NY area. Taking his son to a matinee Planet of the Apes feature, the NYC corporate feel, The Playboy Club, reference to the NY Mets, brings back memories.
The ad men going with that Coke song is indicative of how they went with the flow.
Isn’t that how Leo Tolstoy felt?
Can someone please explain the racist thing? Afraid I’m away from a PC.
BTW, I have heard blacks in America employ a phrase similar to “slaving like a Negro.” Last time, it was black teens selling some pricey miracle cleaner to naive boomers.
Hardly. Leo Tolstoy was against civilization in general, and in particular against cities with museums
Was referring to the ROC.
BTW, I have heard blacks in America employ a phrase similar to "slaving like a Negro." Last time, it was black teens selling some pricey miracle cleaner to naive boomers.Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
https://sholademi.livejournal.com/638455.html
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7072222.htmlReplies: @Anatoly Karlin
The Russian Orthodox Church dreams of returning to the Middle Ages, and the author of shit novels Lev Tolstoy dreamed of returning to the Neolithic. It is difficult to say which of them is more disgusting and harmful.
Highly unlikely. I'll wager they do dream of returning to a cultural situation where there are ample vocations, ample religious instruction, ample religious conscience, and where people's mundane lives are ordered to religious practice.Replies: @Mikhail, @AnonfromTN
“I had to laugh because in America there are only two “…………boy,they got you fooled…..one party state ,now sit back and watch how it’s really done.
An advantage Russia has is that (by all appearances) your political class does not despise ordinary people or their ancestors. Have a gander at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpYmwy5tLZQ
It's difficult to imagine such a thing being organized in the States or in Canada nowadays.Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bill, @Almost Missouri
What’s the big deal supposed to be? Go to minor league hockey games. It’s completely normal for some primary or middle school choir to show up to sing the national anthem. When it’s not that, it’s some rando child singing it solo.
Positive side: Lev Tolstoy could write well; ROC never did anything well. Negative side: Tolstoy fooled just a handful of people; ROC fooled and keeps fooling millions. In my book, Tolstoy wins hands down, ROC is a lot more disgusting.
KPRF. They are an actual political opposition. (which will of course be coopted).
Gerard here – Having church ownership, conducting services but still having churches open to tourism and earning plenty of money……. is a practise that all the great cathedrals around the world have been doing. SP should be no different. I couldn’t believe the reaction against the intended transfer
AaronB has infiltrated the corporate elite!Replies: @Mr. Hack
Now be nice. I happen to like Aaron, no matter what religion or philosophy he happens to be advocating this week. 🙂
AK – Lol I thought you lived in a more bourgeois area, considering your hipster tastes for vegan hamburgers. As you said, it looks like the stereotypical zoo or circus of opposition candidates, and it’s not an area which would be much part of the “higher education” or fussy political connoisseur voters. Although talking about zoos, at least you don’t have Vasserman ( https://lenta.ru/news/2021/09/19/vasserman/ )
I guess Lyublino is still a lower income area (not low income, but low income in terms of Moscow), although perhaps you can see even embourgeoisement processes are now proliferating there in recent years?
Correct. A very nice food court with a large variety of shops as well as Vietnamese, Chinese, Tex-Mex, Thai, Italian, bunch of Georgian and Caucasus (sadly no Indian) eateries, gelaterie and rolled ice cream, and gym with a panoramic view of the food court on one side and the street on the other, opened up within a very short walking distance of my residence just a few months ago.
The Moscow Cossack Choir was invited by the Armenian owner (of course he's Armenian) for the opening.
I would be honored to vote for Anatoly Wasserman, he is an exceedingly powerful candidate.Replies: @Dmitry
They could have been, but aren’t. They exploit nostalgia of older people for the Soviet system, where large-scale thievery was prosecuted, and therefore there weren’t mega-rich people. As well as surprisingly popular among younger people feeling that current system is unfair because it is based on thievery. However, KPRF is 100% fake, because it never challenges existing power. What’s more, its “leader” for the last 30 years, uncle Zyu, is a piece of shit and pathetic coward. Even when he won the elections in 1996, he did not have the balls to challenge pro-Yeltsin fraud. Frankly, if people voting for KPRF are sincere, I can only pity them.
Sadly not all of us inherited apartments in Tverskaya from nomeklatura parents and have to try to make it with crypto instead.
Correct. A very nice food court with a large variety of shops as well as Vietnamese, Chinese, Tex-Mex, Thai, Italian, bunch of Georgian and Caucasus (sadly no Indian) eateries, gelaterie and rolled ice cream, and gym with a panoramic view of the food court on one side and the street on the other, opened up within a very short walking distance of my residence just a few months ago.
The Moscow Cossack Choir was invited by the Armenian owner (of course he’s Armenian) for the opening.
I would be honored to vote for Anatoly Wasserman, he is an exceedingly powerful candidate.
How do you expect to vote Donbass people?
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7072222.html
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7072222.htmlReplies: @Anatoly Karlin
Putin and United Russia do extremely well in Crimea, and they don’t falsify results in that region, so I wouldn’t expect it to be different in the LDNR.
Putins democracy is the same clowns as 30 years ago ( Zyuganov, Jirinovsky, Milonov …) who play the role of a fake and inoffensive opposition to Putin . Russian democracy is as fake as in the US or France. All signs point that Russians are starting to be tired of it. The UR party is highly unpopular. Putins popularity among the young is at an all time low . All the other politicians are unpopular . Putins popularity itself is more the consequence of a lack of alternative than a genuine popularity.If Russia was a democracy, we would have a much more left leaning economic policy ( as Russians favour economic planification and Stalin at 65%) and a much more aggressive policy towards Ukraine and immigration from Central Asia.
Btw what is this new digital and 3-day-of’voting method ? Doesn’t seem very safe from fraud risks to me .
OTOH, I can see blockchain-based voting rigorously eliminating any possibility of fraud while keeping said vote secret.Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Art Deco, @Caspar von Everec
There’s nothing magical about in-person voting that eliminates or even reduces fraud.
You can vote in person just once. That reduces fraud.
Correct. A very nice food court with a large variety of shops as well as Vietnamese, Chinese, Tex-Mex, Thai, Italian, bunch of Georgian and Caucasus (sadly no Indian) eateries, gelaterie and rolled ice cream, and gym with a panoramic view of the food court on one side and the street on the other, opened up within a very short walking distance of my residence just a few months ago.
The Moscow Cossack Choir was invited by the Armenian owner (of course he's Armenian) for the opening.
I would be honored to vote for Anatoly Wasserman, he is an exceedingly powerful candidate.Replies: @Dmitry
Better to be there than centre of Moscow for you in the blogging profession. Unfairly, I had written to someone like German Reader or Thulean Friend – “AK lives in Moscow not Russia” – “living there he has hipster problems not Russia problems”. But your area can be in a boundaryzone of “still Russia problems”, at least for some few more years still.
And for all these “guests” in the area, at least there should be good cuisine.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_rHeKnXoAc0Ryk.jpgReplies: @Dmitry
The Russian Orthodox Church dreams of returning to the Middle Ages,
Highly unlikely. I’ll wager they do dream of returning to a cultural situation where there are ample vocations, ample religious instruction, ample religious conscience, and where people’s mundane lives are ordered to religious practice.
As for the ROC-MP, I'm sensing there're good folks in it, so I'm not gonna bash it. Same with the Roman Catholics. Walk and chew gum at the same time, in the form of pointing at the faults, while having an olive branch for the good within.
Highly unlikely. I'll wager they do dream of returning to a cultural situation where there are ample vocations, ample religious instruction, ample religious conscience, and where people's mundane lives are ordered to religious practice.Replies: @Mikhail, @AnonfromTN
Reading this thread, I’m somewhat reminded of US Catholics I know who’ve gone to over to Protestant denominations, on account of what they don’t like in the denomination of their original upbringing.
As for the ROC-MP, I’m sensing there’re good folks in it, so I’m not gonna bash it. Same with the Roman Catholics. Walk and chew gum at the same time, in the form of pointing at the faults, while having an olive branch for the good within.
https://www.rawstory.com/maria-butina-patrick-byrne-russian-political-donation/
I guess i could have voted in Russian elections as well, I have a valid internal passport and I'm a fully legal Russian citizen as of last year. Still, feels weird. Maybe next time.Replies: @Dmitry
For what it’s worth i told my grandmother in Kirov to vote for Butina, but she was in a different district. Still, grandmother voted United Russia, good.
I guess i could have voted in Russian elections as well, I have a valid internal passport and I’m a fully legal Russian citizen as of last year. Still, feels weird. Maybe next time.
melanf wins hands down.
Right, globalism, yoga deity, sure it’s there. But to me it looks like an ad for California…there was a dream once.
There is also a slow transition from good looking girls to not so good looking – it is subtle, but unmistakable. Rather prophetic about the Western sense of its own end. We just got the end-of-liners, we came too late…
As for pretty girls, living in Slovakia you dare to complain? Do the Rusyn girls really look all that much different than their Slovak cousins?Replies: @Beckow
An advantage Russia has is that (by all appearances) your political class does not despise ordinary people or their ancestors. Have a gander at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpYmwy5tLZQ
It's difficult to imagine such a thing being organized in the States or in Canada nowadays.Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bill, @Almost Missouri
Isn’t that the Soviet anthem?
Highly unlikely. I'll wager they do dream of returning to a cultural situation where there are ample vocations, ample religious instruction, ample religious conscience, and where people's mundane lives are ordered to religious practice.Replies: @Mikhail, @AnonfromTN
Why highly unlikely? You described medieval situation to a tee. If you want to live in that, it’s your problem. I sure don’t.
No, I did not. In a medieval situation, about 90% of the population would be peasants, all but the few would be living near or at subsistence, the general run of people would live in a state of hereditary subjection, knights and noblemen in tournements would trample your crops with impunity, hygiene would be wretched, a large slice of each cohort would die before the age of five, no more than a single-digit share of the population could read or write, and you'd have no medical care to speak of. It was a hard life in the Medieval period, though there were agreeable aspects to life therein. And, no, the Orthodox clergy aren't interested in regenerating the hard life.
TBH, I would’ve voted for the Based Black Guy, unless the UR candidate was really in trouble. Even if Sholademi can’t/doesn’t win, if he has a good showing it’ll encourage other future candidates to steal his platform.
I read a story in the Moscow Times about a ploy of putting two look-alike candidates on the ballot with the same name as the opposition candidate to confuse voters and split the vote.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/09/17/in-russias-parliamentary-vote-spoiler-parties-and-dirty-tricks-abound-a75071
“One of the most high-profile cases appeared in St. Petersburg, where Boris Vishnevsky, a veteran opposition member of the city council, found himself opposed by two other candidates with the same name.
It later emerged that the two additional Boris Vishnevskys — who are only distinguishable from the original by their patronymics — had grown beards and simulated the liberal lawmaker’s balding pate in the candidate portraits that are printed on ballot papers, apparently to confuse voters.”
Seriously, did this really happen?
However, this Vishnevsky himself has used dirty tricks in the past (in particular, when he was a troubadour of Chechen terrorists), so the trick is quite legitimate
What do you have against Lev?
Well also the fact that this man was a disgusting Pharisee pretending to be a prophet. The lot of buffoons is to entertain people, and when they try to declare themselves prophets, they should be whipped but not proclaimed as geniusesReplies: @Yevardian
utu’s commenting history points to him being Czech, I think there’s agreement on this?
Otherwise I can only think of Avery, but I don’t know if he’s originally from the Armenian SSR or another from the diaspora.
I must admit, Elena has a very cumshot worthy face.
OTOH, I can see blockchain-based voting rigorously eliminating any possibility of fraud while keeping said vote secret.Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Art Deco, @Caspar von Everec
How would blockchain voting work and why would it reduce fraud?
Otherwise I can only think of Avery, but I don't know if he's originally from the Armenian SSR or another from the diaspora.Replies: @Beckow, @AP
I have always pinned utu as a bitter Sudeten German – possibly originally from Czechia. That would mean he is not a Czech, let’s not pile on them, they have enough problems on their own. But maybe utu can surprise us.
LDPR is dying and nothing on the right flank emerged that can replace it. If current regime is overthrown, I fear the next government will be liberal/left-wing because we don’t seem to have anything else.
My school years, which were spoiled by the need to read the slop that this author wrote.
Well also the fact that this man was a disgusting Pharisee pretending to be a prophet. The lot of buffoons is to entertain people, and when they try to declare themselves prophets, they should be whipped but not proclaimed as geniuses
And whilst Tolstoy did eventually become some kind of religious nut after some kind of mental breakdown after Anna Karenina, I don't think it's fair to label him a 'pharisee', as unlike most cult leaders, he did at least practice what he preached.
All kinds of things can be fairly pointed at Tolstoy, but I don't think anyone can fairly label him a hypocrite or insincere.Generally I'd find Dostoevsky more guilty of the sort of thing you're talking about, which is especially obvious when reading his journalism, which later too often descended to the level of jingoistic doggerel.Anyway, I think Chekhov remains the greatest Russian writer, and it seems in this case, Russian popular taste is for once in agreement.Replies: @melanf, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN
However, this Vishnevsky himself has used dirty tricks in the past (in particular, when he was a troubadour of Chechen terrorists), so the trick is quite legitimate
Re-Wasserman. How could one possibly vote against any of this?
Well also the fact that this man was a disgusting Pharisee pretending to be a prophet. The lot of buffoons is to entertain people, and when they try to declare themselves prophets, they should be whipped but not proclaimed as geniusesReplies: @Yevardian
Well, admittedly Tolstoy has his flaws (his digressions on ‘historical theory’ greatly marred War & Peace, especially in that stupid appendix of an ‘ending’, otherwise I still think it’s a great book), but Tolstoy the preacher and Tolstoy the writer are not the same thing.
And whilst Tolstoy did eventually become some kind of religious nut after some kind of mental breakdown after Anna Karenina, I don’t think it’s fair to label him a ‘pharisee’, as unlike most cult leaders, he did at least practice what he preached.
All kinds of things can be fairly pointed at Tolstoy, but I don’t think anyone can fairly label him a hypocrite or insincere.
Generally I’d find Dostoevsky more guilty of the sort of thing you’re talking about, which is especially obvious when reading his journalism, which later too often descended to the level of jingoistic doggerel.
Anyway, I think Chekhov remains the greatest Russian writer, and it seems in this case, Russian popular taste is for once in agreement.
And even in his great novels, there are indeed chapters, where he hijacks characters, to use them to present boring, many-page, irrelevant narcissist discussions about his own views on e.g. agriculture. But then inbetween such things, there can be extremely brilliant written scenes which stayed in the memory for years after you read them, and continue to trigger thoughts. - There's nothing unique with Tolstoy to have this problem - many of the most talented writers and artists, were this kind of person. Especially in the 19th century. As always, the question is how it might have damaged their works. Great composers are probably the less unpleasant personalities on average (many eccentric, but not in such an unpleasant way); great writers and artists more often unpleasant to others. Gauguin’s later works could often be submitted as “crime scene evidence” if he was trialled for his rape of Polynesian children. But most of the art fans are still able to enjoy the quality of those painting independently from the reality of their creator.(I wrote last month https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-161/#comment-4862896 )Dostoevsky's strongest talent is to make you continue turning the pages - he had a natural talent for creating very addictive stories (after the readers have survived through the first 50 pages or something).
I’ve never seen a Balt comment here (too bad, I’d like to see some vituperative exchanges outside of AP and Gerard), but of there was a ‘Spisarevski’ from Bulgara (seems long absent), TotallyAnonymous/Great-Serbian-Chetnikhood, ‘PolishPerspective’ (disappeared ages ago), reiner tor, German_Reader, a Finn who posted here for a while, can’t think of any more.
Oh, and that ‘Dacien George Soros’, who reminded me a lot of utu in with his extreme bitterness, but also wrote quite witty posts.
And whilst Tolstoy did eventually become some kind of religious nut after some kind of mental breakdown after Anna Karenina, I don't think it's fair to label him a 'pharisee', as unlike most cult leaders, he did at least practice what he preached.
All kinds of things can be fairly pointed at Tolstoy, but I don't think anyone can fairly label him a hypocrite or insincere.Generally I'd find Dostoevsky more guilty of the sort of thing you're talking about, which is especially obvious when reading his journalism, which later too often descended to the level of jingoistic doggerel.Anyway, I think Chekhov remains the greatest Russian writer, and it seems in this case, Russian popular taste is for once in agreement.Replies: @melanf, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN
His religious and pseudo-religious ideas are embedded in his books (including his early books)
A man who taught that medicine and doctors are harmful because they distract people from God (i.e. from the teachings of Leo Tolstoy) at the end of his life decided to leave home to imitate Christ – well, like Francis of Assisi. He took a retinue with him from home including a personal doctor
I would say that the greatest Russian writers (not poets!) These are Nikolai Gogol, Leonid Solovyov and Alexey Pekhov. However, we all live in our own separate universes, each of which has its own hierarchy of art
Good article and counter to the likes of Steve Rosenberg:
https://www.rt.com/russia/535302-election-west-cheer-communists/
The enthusiasm for your comment exhibited by a Habsburgite is revealing.
BTW, he didn’t win. Rather, it was noted that negative comments on that particular denomination can be easily directed elsewhere – ROC and UGCC included. Once again rhetorically asking does that make all in such bad?
Well, isn’t California supposed to be the blueprint for the rest of the country?
As for pretty girls, living in Slovakia you dare to complain? Do the Rusyn girls really look all that much different than their Slovak cousins?
Rusyn girls from the east are better (in some ways). They are hungrier. I never complain...The best way to judge any country is by the people it produces. We still have it good, so do surrounding countries, further out West and South it is becoming a horror show.
By the way, from the Russian election it seems that anger is moving to commies and left.Replies: @Denver
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_rHeKnXoAc0Ryk.jpgReplies: @Dmitry
Lol he has created the new genre “stalinist libertarianism”. Probably for now we might laugh, but it could become possible by the end of the century if the “calculation problem” was resolved by AI, as he claims it will happen. Currently he was just promoting moderate things like unconditional income https://nation-news.ru/624812-vasserman-schitaet-bazovyi-dohod-instrumentom-spravedlivogo-gosudarstva
I guess congratulations for the victory – at least he seemed to even walk streets politically campaigning.
And whilst Tolstoy did eventually become some kind of religious nut after some kind of mental breakdown after Anna Karenina, I don't think it's fair to label him a 'pharisee', as unlike most cult leaders, he did at least practice what he preached.
All kinds of things can be fairly pointed at Tolstoy, but I don't think anyone can fairly label him a hypocrite or insincere.Generally I'd find Dostoevsky more guilty of the sort of thing you're talking about, which is especially obvious when reading his journalism, which later too often descended to the level of jingoistic doggerel.Anyway, I think Chekhov remains the greatest Russian writer, and it seems in this case, Russian popular taste is for once in agreement.Replies: @melanf, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN
Tolstoy was a very talented writer (at times), while in his personal life a very destructive “narcissistic personality disorder”.
The relevant issue for the literature fans should not be to judge the difficulties in his personality (that had ended more than century ago), except to the extent it has damaged his writings.
And even in his great novels, there are indeed chapters, where he hijacks characters, to use them to present boring, many-page, irrelevant narcissist discussions about his own views on e.g. agriculture. But then inbetween such things, there can be extremely brilliant written scenes which stayed in the memory for years after you read them, and continue to trigger thoughts.
–
There’s nothing unique with Tolstoy to have this problem – many of the most talented writers and artists, were this kind of person. Especially in the 19th century. As always, the question is how it might have damaged their works.
Great composers are probably the less unpleasant personalities on average (many eccentric, but not in such an unpleasant way); great writers and artists more often unpleasant to others. Gauguin’s later works could often be submitted as “crime scene evidence” if he was trialled for his rape of Polynesian children. But most of the art fans are still able to enjoy the quality of those painting independently from the reality of their creator.
(I wrote last month https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-161/#comment-4862896 )
Dostoevsky’s strongest talent is to make you continue turning the pages – he had a natural talent for creating very addictive stories (after the readers have survived through the first 50 pages or something).
Otherwise I can only think of Avery, but I don't know if he's originally from the Armenian SSR or another from the diaspora.Replies: @Beckow, @AP
Utu is likely to be a Silesian ( whether from Poland or Czechia – I’m not sure). Not a Czech and not a Sudeten German.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/09/20/russian-opposition-politician-loses-vote-marred-by-doppelgangers-a75092
This Boris Vishnevsky could not lose the election because of duplicate candidates. This story became so famous that it could only bring Vishnevsky additional voices. That is, he lost the election for other reasons
As for pretty girls, living in Slovakia you dare to complain? Do the Rusyn girls really look all that much different than their Slovak cousins?Replies: @Beckow
If Cali is the blueprint, what’s coming won’t be great. Future generations will be studying the inexplicable, largely self-inflicted, collapse. What is behind it is a simple old people’s greed – they sold out because they were not very competent and knew it, so selling out was easier. People always do what is easier.
Rusyn girls from the east are better (in some ways). They are hungrier. I never complain…The best way to judge any country is by the people it produces. We still have it good, so do surrounding countries, further out West and South it is becoming a horror show.
By the way, from the Russian election it seems that anger is moving to commies and left.
According to early, unofficial results I’ve seen, the two parties who gained the most seats are the Communists (on the left, obviously), and the recently established, pro-Putin, pro-small-business, center-right New People party.
This goes against claims by AP, who says that Donbas people are mostly sovoks yearning for the USSR. If that hypothesis would have been true they should vote the commies (along liberals advised by Navalny, lol).
Rusyn girls from the east are better (in some ways). They are hungrier. I never complain...The best way to judge any country is by the people it produces. We still have it good, so do surrounding countries, further out West and South it is becoming a horror show.
By the way, from the Russian election it seems that anger is moving to commies and left.Replies: @Denver
Russian communists are nationalistic and oppose the destructive ‘liberalism’ of the US, which is not even liberalism any longer, but Bolshevism.
Classical liberalism started losing ground to divisive ideologies promoted by you-know-who over the last decades. Politically, it’s all but dead in the US, save for its economic aspects (for now).
Indeed, many Russian communists would be labeled fascists by this crowd.
BTW, look at the US-dominated Ukraine. Massive police presence to protect homosexuals, and the president says more is needed to protect their rights. I said in 2014 that Ukrainian nationalists are morons being used by people who hate them and that the new owners of the country will implement Bolshevism little by little, and it’s being done steadily. What nationalists or the average Ukrainian think be damned.
First, all Russian "exclave" type places always tend to give very good results for Putin/UR, including Russians in the Baltic states. Followed by the LDPR.
Second, the meme about Russian communists being "nationalists" is overdone and needs to be done away with. Adopting some populist talking points is not nationalism.
Let’s see how the results are in Donbas. Perhaps gratitude for Putin’s support may trump Commie sympathy.
In the 2012 election they did better in Luhansk than any other oblast in Ukraine:
They did not do quite as well in Donetsk because this was the epicenter of the Party of Regions political machine (which also took votes away from them in Luhansk).
In the last election before they were banned, when the Party of Regions wasn’t grabbing as many votes in their stronghold:
But Putin leave them in Ukraine when most of them wanted to follow the Crimean path. We should wait for definitive results to extract the right conclusions.
In fact I was curious about the voting pattern in the Donbass to clarify the phenomenology of the uprising. E.g. were they sovoks yearning for the red years? So, they will vote Communists. If the fracture happened along ethnic lines, they should vote for Putin’s party. If they are PanSlavic fans they should go to the LDPR (although this is a semifake party).
They could either be grateful to Putin for giving them passports, weapons etc., or angry at him for not doing more and turning them into Crimea (the ones who are angry at Russia in general have either moved to Ukraine or if they stayed behind presumably wouldn’t have accepted Russian passports).
I’m guessing some combination of the first two. A potential confound might be the nature of handing out the Russian passports. Was anyone who wanted one getting one? Were some efforts made to give them to UR voters?
That’s not how it works.
First, all Russian “exclave” type places always tend to give very good results for Putin/UR, including Russians in the Baltic states. Followed by the LDPR.
Second, the meme about Russian communists being “nationalists” is overdone and needs to be done away with. Adopting some populist talking points is not nationalism.
That utu personage is bitter to the point of insanity. Every nation has its cranks. We should not extrapolate from them to the whole nationality.
And whilst Tolstoy did eventually become some kind of religious nut after some kind of mental breakdown after Anna Karenina, I don't think it's fair to label him a 'pharisee', as unlike most cult leaders, he did at least practice what he preached.
All kinds of things can be fairly pointed at Tolstoy, but I don't think anyone can fairly label him a hypocrite or insincere.Generally I'd find Dostoevsky more guilty of the sort of thing you're talking about, which is especially obvious when reading his journalism, which later too often descended to the level of jingoistic doggerel.Anyway, I think Chekhov remains the greatest Russian writer, and it seems in this case, Russian popular taste is for once in agreement.Replies: @melanf, @Dmitry, @AnonfromTN
Agree 100%. Good writers usually make crappy preachers. E.g., Prilepin is a recent example. Besides, when he wrote decent stuff, he ate meat. When he started preaching and writing crap, he vent vegetarian.
I find disgusting the attacks against the Orthodox Church wherever they come from, Tennessee, Ukraine or Russia (even from Tolstoy, of course).
Oh, and that 'Dacien George Soros', who reminded me a lot of utu in with his extreme bitterness, but also wrote quite witty posts.Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Haruto Rat
LatW is from Latvia. Don’t know whether he still lives there, of, like most sensible able-bodied Latvians, went to greener pastures.
That explains you handle: seraphim is the highest angelic rank. However, it is still your personal problem. Nobody can help you.
I can’t say anything about Tennessee, but dislike of the Orthodox Church in Russia is fully justified. The Orthodox Church has tried for centuries to use Russia for its own purposes, giving nothing in return
The most negative comments done against the ROC can for consistency be applied elsewhere. In this instance, I'm referring to the pro-RC types who rag on the ROC. They'd take offense to portraying the RC as a corrupt denomination with sexual perversions and working with Nazis.
A good number of non-religious Russians look positively at the ROC, respecting its role and those who earnestly observe in that denomination.
The final results are in (if this isn’t posted already):
Party Leader % Seats ±
United Russia 49.82% 324 -19
CPRF 18.93% 57 +15
SRZP 7.46% 27 +4
LDPR 7.55% 21 -18
New People 5.32% 13 New
Rodina 0.80% 1 0
Party of Growth 0.52% 1 +1
Civic Platform 0.15% 1 0
Independents – 5 +4
Voter turnout is 51.68%
(All info is taken from Wikipedia, which is biased for political commentary, but accurate for “hard” numbers as far as officially reported)
I wonder if some of the more liberal Nashi alums supported it.
I wonder how you imagine you can help me. Help me to do what? Seraphims get help only from God.
Identifying the current Western uber-liberal wokists as Bolsheviks or Marxists is way off, those are completely different ways of thinking. People who dislike anything leftist – a perfectly rational point of view – have lost their sense of history and since they really hate the modern liberalism – also a perfectly rational point of view – they lazily equate the two. It is nonsense, they are not in any meaningful way the same.
I have made this point many times (mostly to no avail): national oriented political parties will never succeed without a social policy. It simply cannot be done – the retarded libertarianism only appeals to a few asocial malcontents, maybe 10-15%. And corporate globalism even less so. That means that any national, traditional party has to be to some extent leftist in its social policies. The insane barking against “socialists” or “Bolsheviks” undermines this obvious political sweet spot. Trump only succeeded – temporarily – when he hinted at social policies, that’s how he got the needed votes.
Ukie nationalists fell into the same trap – de facto becoming a military fist for the social liberalism and corporate (oligarch) rule. That’s what happens when people emotionally misread history. Western traditionalists are doing the same and will fail if they don’t wake up and dump libertarian economics for what masses really want: social guarantees and less-work-more-leisure society. The crazy liberals are winning because they understand it and at least pretend.
As wealth has increased and being poor no longer means living in a slum, with not enough food and slaving away in dangerous dirty conditions for 180+ hours a week, economic interests have become less important.
This is as true for the rich as the poor. The rich are no longer driven by class markers that require them to protect their wealth as ferociously as before. Until WW2 finished them off, the English aristocracy were holding onto their country piles by hook or by crook because that was what made them what they were. The same effect played a part lower down the scale with smaller residences. Now similar status might be found in a blue check mark Twitter account. The 21st Century set version of Downton Abbey will be fascinating.
The political conversation has changed and continues to do so. Young people rarely read Marx anymore and experience the fireworks they seem to have used to even as recently as the 1960s. Economic interests have far less of an emotional pull over them than they did before, though they are still very important. Your wealth matters less to your life and sense of self than it did.
All this is relevant to your comment because you point out that libertarian economics or "neoliberalism" are less of a constituency than some people think, but the truth is exactly the same for socialism or "social policies." People mostly just don't want the wheels to come off and pick their side of this debate with a lot less passion than they used to.
Sometimes the natural flow of a person and the intensity of their passions is a lot more rational than what they say or what they think. You can see this in the way people vote on economics versus their talk, and many other aspects of life.
Overall, the economic consensus of everyone all together is likely what we have. People want more social services and lower taxes because why wouldn't they(?), but, since one comes at the cost of the other, if you push too much in one direction you will lose at least as much support as you gain.
This means that if you feel something is missing from the national conversation like "nationalism", it is best that you argue directly for it, adopt the consensus middle ground on economics and focus appropriately.
It may be the boring reality, but focusing on the problem you want to solve tends to be the best way of succeeding. Libertarian or socialist arguments are a distraction that will lose you support and confuse your audience, unless your prime motive is libertarianism or socialism!
Revolutionary movements do succeed by being far from the centre ground, but they exist in times fertile for revolution. Unprecedented wealth, social peace etc is not a fertile time, no matter how much it may be fun to fantasise that the apocalypse is around the corner. Netflix is full of such fantasies, but the vampire apocalypse or the zombie apocalypse are much more fun than weird torture political fantasies pretending to be hard analysis arguments anyway.
I am not sure what this means for you Beckow, as I am not sure where you live, but for an American nationalist it means espousing centrist economics from the right like Trump, because that it where their most likely support already sees its economic interests.
Nationalists want to steal the political conversation towards their national issues. If I want to shoplift a chocolate bar, I don't first go in and shoplift all of the magazines. I focus. (I also never shoplift.)
There is no easy "one fix all solution", but staying focused and working gradually towards your goals while remaining reflexive enough and energetic enough is the boring and annoyingly complicated answer to almost every complex problem. Because of course it is.
As for making nationalism about hating gays, that ship has long sailed. Almost no one has any interest in doing so. It is just yet another example of a lack of focus on self-declared nationalists' part. Constructs like "ZOG" or "Globohomo" may be funny and they allow the bearers of said constructs to pretend that these issues are all inevitably intertwined, but they're not and those constructs are at best a metaphor and mostly a projected fantasy.
If you want to sell something that isn't in the consensus, don't tie it to a bunch of other things that aren't in the consensus. No one normal is going to swallow something so unwieldy. And if they really are secretly tied together and your fantasies are true, then succeeding on one means succeeding on all anyway, so you might as well go with the sensible option.
Even though it is much less epic, a much less self-aggrandising "enemy" to face, and rants about it deliver oneself so much less catharsis.Replies: @iffen, @Beckow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deg_Tegh_Fateh
The dual responsibility of the Khalsa: to provide food and protection for the needy and oppressed.https://graymirror.substack.com/p/socialism-and-capitalism-are-both
https://graymirror.substack.com/p/a-brief-explanation-of-the-cathedral
An oligarchy inherently converges on ideas that justify the use of power.
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
There are levels of bitterness. Among Sudeten German descendants it is often insane – thus utu is quite typical. But he does occassionally make valid points :)…
Within reason, it has been observed that the ROC has historically been close to the Russian government. Often times, this observation has been done in a negative and hypocritical way.
The most negative comments done against the ROC can for consistency be applied elsewhere. In this instance, I’m referring to the pro-RC types who rag on the ROC. They’d take offense to portraying the RC as a corrupt denomination with sexual perversions and working with Nazis.
A good number of non-religious Russians look positively at the ROC, respecting its role and those who earnestly observe in that denomination.
Russia wouldn’t be Russia without the Orthodox Church. As Dostoevski put it, Russia without Christianity is ‘ethnographic material’, and not of the best quality. Your ‘ethnographic material’ killed 300,000 priests because it ‘disliked’ them for telling them not to be drunk out of their minds.
If religion were not Orthodoxy but Catholicism - what would have happened then? It is possible that Russia could not defend its independence from its toothy western neighbors. But if Russia could sew itself up, then development would go much faster, since the Orthodox Church at all times was a millstone on the neck of RussiaReplies: @AP
It can be said with equal success that Russia would not have been Russia without the Bolshevik revolution. Because without the revolution it would be a different Russia – not the same Russia as we know it in the current reality
If religion were not Orthodoxy but Catholicism – what would have happened then? It is possible that Russia could not defend its independence from its toothy western neighbors. But if Russia could sew itself up, then development would go much faster, since the Orthodox Church at all times was a millstone on the neck of Russia
It is now recovering, arm in arm with Orthodoxy.
What kind of Russia did Orthodoxy help produce? A sublime Russia of Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky, organic growth and improvement in all spheres, booming population, etc.Replies: @melanf, @Seraphim
Party Leader % Seats ±
United Russia 49.82% 324 -19
CPRF 18.93% 57 +15
SRZP 7.46% 27 +4
LDPR 7.55% 21 -18
New People 5.32% 13 New
Rodina 0.80% 1 0
Party of Growth 0.52% 1 +1
Civic Platform 0.15% 1 0
Independents – 5 +4
Voter turnout is 51.68%
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg/5050px-2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg.png
(All info is taken from Wikipedia, which is biased for political commentary, but accurate for "hard" numbers as far as officially reported)Replies: @LondonBob, @Not Raul, @HenryBaker
Good to see Civic Platform make the list.
She, not he. Without being more specific, yes, clearly an emigrant.
Oh, and that 'Dacien George Soros', who reminded me a lot of utu in with his extreme bitterness, but also wrote quite witty posts.Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Haruto Rat
I’m one. My opinions mostly range from ‘outside mainstream’ to ‘outright heresy’ however, so they shouldn’t be taken as representative of anything.
Can’t help with that. Monstra sub ponte non sunt alenda.
Marxist analysis was very specific, but it fits into the broader assumption that it is only economic interests that matter. This is very late 19th Century.
As wealth has increased and being poor no longer means living in a slum, with not enough food and slaving away in dangerous dirty conditions for 180+ hours a week, economic interests have become less important.
This is as true for the rich as the poor. The rich are no longer driven by class markers that require them to protect their wealth as ferociously as before. Until WW2 finished them off, the English aristocracy were holding onto their country piles by hook or by crook because that was what made them what they were. The same effect played a part lower down the scale with smaller residences. Now similar status might be found in a blue check mark Twitter account. The 21st Century set version of Downton Abbey will be fascinating.
The political conversation has changed and continues to do so. Young people rarely read Marx anymore and experience the fireworks they seem to have used to even as recently as the 1960s. Economic interests have far less of an emotional pull over them than they did before, though they are still very important. Your wealth matters less to your life and sense of self than it did.
All this is relevant to your comment because you point out that libertarian economics or “neoliberalism” are less of a constituency than some people think, but the truth is exactly the same for socialism or “social policies.” People mostly just don’t want the wheels to come off and pick their side of this debate with a lot less passion than they used to.
Sometimes the natural flow of a person and the intensity of their passions is a lot more rational than what they say or what they think. You can see this in the way people vote on economics versus their talk, and many other aspects of life.
Overall, the economic consensus of everyone all together is likely what we have. People want more social services and lower taxes because why wouldn’t they(?), but, since one comes at the cost of the other, if you push too much in one direction you will lose at least as much support as you gain.
This means that if you feel something is missing from the national conversation like “nationalism”, it is best that you argue directly for it, adopt the consensus middle ground on economics and focus appropriately.
It may be the boring reality, but focusing on the problem you want to solve tends to be the best way of succeeding. Libertarian or socialist arguments are a distraction that will lose you support and confuse your audience, unless your prime motive is libertarianism or socialism!
Revolutionary movements do succeed by being far from the centre ground, but they exist in times fertile for revolution. Unprecedented wealth, social peace etc is not a fertile time, no matter how much it may be fun to fantasise that the apocalypse is around the corner. Netflix is full of such fantasies, but the vampire apocalypse or the zombie apocalypse are much more fun than weird torture political fantasies pretending to be hard analysis arguments anyway.
I am not sure what this means for you Beckow, as I am not sure where you live, but for an American nationalist it means espousing centrist economics from the right like Trump, because that it where their most likely support already sees its economic interests.
Nationalists want to steal the political conversation towards their national issues. If I want to shoplift a chocolate bar, I don’t first go in and shoplift all of the magazines. I focus. (I also never shoplift.)
There is no easy “one fix all solution”, but staying focused and working gradually towards your goals while remaining reflexive enough and energetic enough is the boring and annoyingly complicated answer to almost every complex problem. Because of course it is.
As for making nationalism about hating gays, that ship has long sailed. Almost no one has any interest in doing so. It is just yet another example of a lack of focus on self-declared nationalists’ part. Constructs like “ZOG” or “Globohomo” may be funny and they allow the bearers of said constructs to pretend that these issues are all inevitably intertwined, but they’re not and those constructs are at best a metaphor and mostly a projected fantasy.
If you want to sell something that isn’t in the consensus, don’t tie it to a bunch of other things that aren’t in the consensus. No one normal is going to swallow something so unwieldy. And if they really are secretly tied together and your fantasies are true, then succeeding on one means succeeding on all anyway, so you might as well go with the sensible option.
Even though it is much less epic, a much less self-aggrandising “enemy” to face, and rants about it deliver oneself so much less catharsis.
Marxanymore No charge.Constructs like “ZOG” or “Globohomo” ZOG is a political construct while global homogenization is an observable phenomenon. I would say that you are juxtaposing an apple and an orange, except it is more like a rock to an orange. Something a typical representative of ZOG might do.If religion were not Orthodoxy but Catholicism - what would have happened then? It is possible that Russia could not defend its independence from its toothy western neighbors. But if Russia could sew itself up, then development would go much faster, since the Orthodox Church at all times was a millstone on the neck of RussiaReplies: @AP
And what kind of Russia did the Bolsheviks produce? One that killed millions of its own people and enabled the Germans to kill many millions more, epic levels of abortion, and that ended under its Communist masters with the 90s debauchery. A shambling stumbling Frankenstein’s monster made from the corpse of murdered Russia by its murderers, which inevitably fell and rotted. This was Russia with Orthodoxy removed from it.
It is now recovering, arm in arm with Orthodoxy.
What kind of Russia did Orthodoxy help produce? A sublime Russia of Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky, organic growth and improvement in all spheres, booming population, etc.
But to accuse the Church that it imposed free days out of a grudging work instead of enforcing the desire of the slave masters to force people work 24/7/365 borders on idiocy, nay, it is idiotical.Replies: @melanf, @AP, @AP
As wealth has increased and being poor no longer means living in a slum, with not enough food and slaving away in dangerous dirty conditions for 180+ hours a week, economic interests have become less important.
This is as true for the rich as the poor. The rich are no longer driven by class markers that require them to protect their wealth as ferociously as before. Until WW2 finished them off, the English aristocracy were holding onto their country piles by hook or by crook because that was what made them what they were. The same effect played a part lower down the scale with smaller residences. Now similar status might be found in a blue check mark Twitter account. The 21st Century set version of Downton Abbey will be fascinating.
The political conversation has changed and continues to do so. Young people rarely read Marx anymore and experience the fireworks they seem to have used to even as recently as the 1960s. Economic interests have far less of an emotional pull over them than they did before, though they are still very important. Your wealth matters less to your life and sense of self than it did.
All this is relevant to your comment because you point out that libertarian economics or "neoliberalism" are less of a constituency than some people think, but the truth is exactly the same for socialism or "social policies." People mostly just don't want the wheels to come off and pick their side of this debate with a lot less passion than they used to.
Sometimes the natural flow of a person and the intensity of their passions is a lot more rational than what they say or what they think. You can see this in the way people vote on economics versus their talk, and many other aspects of life.
Overall, the economic consensus of everyone all together is likely what we have. People want more social services and lower taxes because why wouldn't they(?), but, since one comes at the cost of the other, if you push too much in one direction you will lose at least as much support as you gain.
This means that if you feel something is missing from the national conversation like "nationalism", it is best that you argue directly for it, adopt the consensus middle ground on economics and focus appropriately.
It may be the boring reality, but focusing on the problem you want to solve tends to be the best way of succeeding. Libertarian or socialist arguments are a distraction that will lose you support and confuse your audience, unless your prime motive is libertarianism or socialism!
Revolutionary movements do succeed by being far from the centre ground, but they exist in times fertile for revolution. Unprecedented wealth, social peace etc is not a fertile time, no matter how much it may be fun to fantasise that the apocalypse is around the corner. Netflix is full of such fantasies, but the vampire apocalypse or the zombie apocalypse are much more fun than weird torture political fantasies pretending to be hard analysis arguments anyway.
I am not sure what this means for you Beckow, as I am not sure where you live, but for an American nationalist it means espousing centrist economics from the right like Trump, because that it where their most likely support already sees its economic interests.
Nationalists want to steal the political conversation towards their national issues. If I want to shoplift a chocolate bar, I don't first go in and shoplift all of the magazines. I focus. (I also never shoplift.)
There is no easy "one fix all solution", but staying focused and working gradually towards your goals while remaining reflexive enough and energetic enough is the boring and annoyingly complicated answer to almost every complex problem. Because of course it is.
As for making nationalism about hating gays, that ship has long sailed. Almost no one has any interest in doing so. It is just yet another example of a lack of focus on self-declared nationalists' part. Constructs like "ZOG" or "Globohomo" may be funny and they allow the bearers of said constructs to pretend that these issues are all inevitably intertwined, but they're not and those constructs are at best a metaphor and mostly a projected fantasy.
If you want to sell something that isn't in the consensus, don't tie it to a bunch of other things that aren't in the consensus. No one normal is going to swallow something so unwieldy. And if they really are secretly tied together and your fantasies are true, then succeeding on one means succeeding on all anyway, so you might as well go with the sensible option.
Even though it is much less epic, a much less self-aggrandising "enemy" to face, and rants about it deliver oneself so much less catharsis.Replies: @iffen, @Beckow
being poor no longer means living in a slum
I am sure this comes as welcome relief to those still living in slums.
Young people rarely read
MarxanymoreNo charge.
Constructs like “ZOG” or “Globohomo”
ZOG is a political construct while global homogenization is an observable phenomenon. I would say that you are juxtaposing an apple and an orange, except it is more like a rock to an orange. Something a typical representative of ZOG might do.
As wealth has increased and being poor no longer means living in a slum, with not enough food and slaving away in dangerous dirty conditions for 180+ hours a week, economic interests have become less important.
This is as true for the rich as the poor. The rich are no longer driven by class markers that require them to protect their wealth as ferociously as before. Until WW2 finished them off, the English aristocracy were holding onto their country piles by hook or by crook because that was what made them what they were. The same effect played a part lower down the scale with smaller residences. Now similar status might be found in a blue check mark Twitter account. The 21st Century set version of Downton Abbey will be fascinating.
The political conversation has changed and continues to do so. Young people rarely read Marx anymore and experience the fireworks they seem to have used to even as recently as the 1960s. Economic interests have far less of an emotional pull over them than they did before, though they are still very important. Your wealth matters less to your life and sense of self than it did.
All this is relevant to your comment because you point out that libertarian economics or "neoliberalism" are less of a constituency than some people think, but the truth is exactly the same for socialism or "social policies." People mostly just don't want the wheels to come off and pick their side of this debate with a lot less passion than they used to.
Sometimes the natural flow of a person and the intensity of their passions is a lot more rational than what they say or what they think. You can see this in the way people vote on economics versus their talk, and many other aspects of life.
Overall, the economic consensus of everyone all together is likely what we have. People want more social services and lower taxes because why wouldn't they(?), but, since one comes at the cost of the other, if you push too much in one direction you will lose at least as much support as you gain.
This means that if you feel something is missing from the national conversation like "nationalism", it is best that you argue directly for it, adopt the consensus middle ground on economics and focus appropriately.
It may be the boring reality, but focusing on the problem you want to solve tends to be the best way of succeeding. Libertarian or socialist arguments are a distraction that will lose you support and confuse your audience, unless your prime motive is libertarianism or socialism!
Revolutionary movements do succeed by being far from the centre ground, but they exist in times fertile for revolution. Unprecedented wealth, social peace etc is not a fertile time, no matter how much it may be fun to fantasise that the apocalypse is around the corner. Netflix is full of such fantasies, but the vampire apocalypse or the zombie apocalypse are much more fun than weird torture political fantasies pretending to be hard analysis arguments anyway.
I am not sure what this means for you Beckow, as I am not sure where you live, but for an American nationalist it means espousing centrist economics from the right like Trump, because that it where their most likely support already sees its economic interests.
Nationalists want to steal the political conversation towards their national issues. If I want to shoplift a chocolate bar, I don't first go in and shoplift all of the magazines. I focus. (I also never shoplift.)
There is no easy "one fix all solution", but staying focused and working gradually towards your goals while remaining reflexive enough and energetic enough is the boring and annoyingly complicated answer to almost every complex problem. Because of course it is.
As for making nationalism about hating gays, that ship has long sailed. Almost no one has any interest in doing so. It is just yet another example of a lack of focus on self-declared nationalists' part. Constructs like "ZOG" or "Globohomo" may be funny and they allow the bearers of said constructs to pretend that these issues are all inevitably intertwined, but they're not and those constructs are at best a metaphor and mostly a projected fantasy.
If you want to sell something that isn't in the consensus, don't tie it to a bunch of other things that aren't in the consensus. No one normal is going to swallow something so unwieldy. And if they really are secretly tied together and your fantasies are true, then succeeding on one means succeeding on all anyway, so you might as well go with the sensible option.
Even though it is much less epic, a much less self-aggrandising "enemy" to face, and rants about it deliver oneself so much less catharsis.Replies: @iffen, @Beckow
Your subtle celebration of our modern-day prosperity and a plea for moderation is appreciated (really!). I don’t disagree and what I wrote originally was about needing a strong social component for any traditional-national-conservative political force. That is not radical, they simply need to include social guarantees – e.g. in US better comprehensive and simpler medical care – and drop the insane libertarian emphasis on “work hard, pull yourself by your bootstraps“. That ideology obviously doesn’t fit how most people live today.
The unfortunate tendency of conservatives to preach and invent castles in the sky (“prosperity is just around the corner – just work 2-3 jobs, blabla…“), their boosterism and inane belief that the “market” is somehow perfect and meritocratic – that is pure idiocy. That’s why they keep on losing. Voting is decided on the margins, both in terms of people and in people’s minds, and enough voters are discouraged or disgusted by the business-uber-alles lies to vote for the only available alternative: the liberal neo-liberal woke morons who at least have the right instinct to promise more stuff.
Your benefits-taxes dilemma also seems artificial in times of fiat money, bank bailouts and spending trillions on far-away wars (more like massive corruption for insiders). So it has little appeal because people sense that it is not real, but made-up. Somehow “money” is always there for the things that rich elites need or want. That has become obvious and anti-tax rhetoric rings hollow.
People want stuff, it motivates them – when conservatives act like stingy, punitive preachy ass-holes they lose. Trump started out well, he explicitly denounced cutting social stuff, promised a lot (e.g. infrastructure) and added the desired conservative slogans about nation, borders, traditional life. Then he did almost nothing that he promised. America will live with the consequences of that failure for a long time.
There are also very strong economic components to traditionalism: open borders destroy labor markets, LGBT rule that West has today economically undermines middle-class families and their ability to raise children. The BLM color madness is offensive and very costly in terms of opportunities and increased crime. Those economic reasons have a strong impact on how people think and vote.
So no revolution, but the attempted reforms have also miserable failed. As always, because without fear the privileged won’t give an inch even if it would benefit them in the long run. The real issue is that the current Western set-up is simply unsustainable. It can go on for a long time, but the glory days are gone and one can sense the fragility. The next 5-10 years could surprise. Or not. In any case, if conservatives want to win, they must offer more social content, they must dump the self-defeating “work more or suffer” slogans, it doesn’t play well.
Unfair to the privileged! Two examples: (1) Chancellor Otto von Bismarck during the 2nd Reich, a conservative that created a welfare state, social programmes (healthcare, work accidents insurance, pensions) for German workers, probably the 1st stateman to do such a thing in the Western world. (2) The USA after the Great Depression and before the fall of the USSR. In both examples the ultimate cause was fear of Marxism but nonetheless, there are conservative forces waiting in the wings that are willing to give way more than an inch to achieve social harmony and a optimal harvest of human talent.
It is now recovering, arm in arm with Orthodoxy.
What kind of Russia did Orthodoxy help produce? A sublime Russia of Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky, organic growth and improvement in all spheres, booming population, etc.Replies: @melanf, @Seraphim
Well, the Byzantine religion is the main culprit of the revolution. The church forbade peasants to work almost most of the year (religious holidays), and was the main obstacle to education. Plus, the insane approval of an unlimited birth rate, as well as the country’s involvement in wars in the interests of this sect.
You've not looked at a liturgical calendar in a while.Replies: @melanf
You described medieval situation to a tee.
No, I did not. In a medieval situation, about 90% of the population would be peasants, all but the few would be living near or at subsistence, the general run of people would live in a state of hereditary subjection, knights and noblemen in tournements would trample your crops with impunity, hygiene would be wretched, a large slice of each cohort would die before the age of five, no more than a single-digit share of the population could read or write, and you’d have no medical care to speak of. It was a hard life in the Medieval period, though there were agreeable aspects to life therein. And, no, the Orthodox clergy aren’t interested in regenerating the hard life.
I guess i could have voted in Russian elections as well, I have a valid internal passport and I'm a fully legal Russian citizen as of last year. Still, feels weird. Maybe next time.Replies: @Dmitry
I’m attracted to the personality of Maria Butina – these shameless people whose opportunism converts life into epic multinational adventure, seem somehow more likeable than less literary figures.
There is also something likeable in the mental flexibility of pure opportunist people, that mirror their personality to their self-interest.
It’s like their opportunism is a kind of agreeableness and easy adjustment to reality.
But from what perspective can she be a competent manager for her constituents?
She has a history of talent and competence in terms of her relations with wealthy older men. But in the other parts of her “professional diplomatic achievements”, her results have failed in disorganized and amateur ways.
You would not succeed much for football (let alone neurosurgery, construction industry, aviation safety, military strategy, etc) if you hired the people that had disorganized failure and amateurism in their professional career.
Although it is symptomatic that government managers, are nowadays something more like reality television stars than neurosurgeons, and actual professional results can be less prioritized in politics than for “much more serious professions” like football.
My sister-in-law’s mother is Moldovan, can I claim Moldova too?
As far as I’m aware, nobody here is from further east/into Russia than me (Kazan) – not even anyone from the Urals, although maybe it has just not formed in natural conversation here from the topics discussed for anyone to mention they are from Tomsk or Norilsk or anywhere else.
Martyanov is from Azerbaijan
Sudden death is from Lithuania
Reinor Tor is a Hungarian, German nazi pillager anarchist – David-hasselhoff-worshipping clown
AP is a fantasist, compulsive – liar bimbo with absolute no connection to Ukraine or to an international passport
One of the people here was from Mongolia
Surprisingly, no Gruzian and not even
an ethnic Russian from any of the central Asian SSR’s
My point exactly. So God help you!
Thanks for the info! Internet provides an interesting flavor of political correctness: there are no genders, unless people willingly disclose them.
As far as I'm aware, nobody here is from further east/into Russia than me (Kazan) - not even anyone from the Urals, although maybe it has just not formed in natural conversation here from the topics discussed for anyone to mention they are from Tomsk or Norilsk or anywhere else.
Martyanov is from Azerbaijan
Sudden death is from Lithuania
Reinor Tor is a Hungarian, German nazi pillager anarchist - David-hasselhoff-worshipping clown
AP is a fantasist, compulsive - liar bimbo with absolute no connection to Ukraine or to an international passport
One of the people here was from Mongolia
Surprisingly, no Gruzian and not even
an ethnic Russian from any of the central Asian SSR'sReplies: @AnonfromTN
I meant that it would be interesting to hear the opinions of residents of all those countries. Actually, at least two kinds of residents: from local tribe and from Russian diaspora. E.g., my school girlfriend was a Moldovan, but she never lived there, so her opinions would not represent Moldova.
The church forbade peasants to work almost most of the year (religious holidays),
You’ve not looked at a liturgical calendar in a while.
"Orthodox Russian peasants actually had 71 holidays, without Sundays, much more than, for example, in the Baltic provinces, Catholics — 43, Baltic Protestants and German colonists-18, in Germany-13, in most Catholic countries — 35 (in some — in Spain and Italy — about 48), in China, Japan and other countries of East and South Asia — 35. Moreover, their number has increased in the post-reform period. Secondly, the abundance of holidays caused significant harm to the peasant economy, as it took a lot of time and money. If Orthodox Russian peasants had the same number of holidays and Sundays as Western ones, this would give production an additional 3 billion man-days a year and increase the balance of working time by almost 20%, thanks to which the peasants would receive additional income in the amount of 1870 million rubles"Replies: @iffen, @AP, @Art Deco
Party Leader % Seats ±
United Russia 49.82% 324 -19
CPRF 18.93% 57 +15
SRZP 7.46% 27 +4
LDPR 7.55% 21 -18
New People 5.32% 13 New
Rodina 0.80% 1 0
Party of Growth 0.52% 1 +1
Civic Platform 0.15% 1 0
Independents – 5 +4
Voter turnout is 51.68%
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg/5050px-2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg.png
(All info is taken from Wikipedia, which is biased for political commentary, but accurate for "hard" numbers as far as officially reported)Replies: @LondonBob, @Not Raul, @HenryBaker
New People did well.
I wonder if some of the more liberal Nashi alums supported it.
You've not looked at a liturgical calendar in a while.Replies: @melanf
https://culturolog.ru/content/view/3779/29/
“Orthodox Russian peasants actually had 71 holidays, without Sundays, much more than, for example, in the Baltic provinces, Catholics — 43, Baltic Protestants and German colonists-18, in Germany-13, in most Catholic countries — 35 (in some — in Spain and Italy — about 48), in China, Japan and other countries of East and South Asia — 35. Moreover, their number has increased in the post-reform period. Secondly, the abundance of holidays caused significant harm to the peasant economy, as it took a lot of time and money. If Orthodox Russian peasants had the same number of holidays and Sundays as Western ones, this would give production an additional 3 billion man-days a year and increase the balance of working time by almost 20%, thanks to which the peasants would receive additional income in the amount of 1870 million rubles”
It is now recovering, arm in arm with Orthodoxy.
What kind of Russia did Orthodoxy help produce? A sublime Russia of Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky, organic growth and improvement in all spheres, booming population, etc.Replies: @melanf, @Seraphim
All Russian composers composed music for Church services. Dostoevski’s critics had to admit that his Weltanshauung was the ”Official Nationality”: Pravoslávie, samoderzhávie, naródnost’. What about Gogol? True, Tolstoy is the exception, that’s why is he so beloved by the Bolsheviks. His hatred of the Church led him to insanity.
But to accuse the Church that it imposed free days out of a grudging work instead of enforcing the desire of the slave masters to force people work 24/7/365 borders on idiocy, nay, it is idiotical.
Deg Teg Fateh (Punjabi: ਦੇਗ ਤੇਗ਼ ਫ਼ਤਿਹ, or Victory to Charity and Arms)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deg_Tegh_Fateh
The dual responsibility of the Khalsa: to provide food and protection for the needy and oppressed.
https://graymirror.substack.com/p/socialism-and-capitalism-are-both
https://graymirror.substack.com/p/a-brief-explanation-of-the-cathedral
An oligarchy inherently converges on ideas that justify the use of power.
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
But to accuse the Church that it imposed free days out of a grudging work instead of enforcing the desire of the slave masters to force people work 24/7/365 borders on idiocy, nay, it is idiotical.Replies: @melanf, @AP, @AP
This statement is just nonsense
https://youtu.be/DmM4i7rj_3gReplies: @melanf
"Orthodox Russian peasants actually had 71 holidays, without Sundays, much more than, for example, in the Baltic provinces, Catholics — 43, Baltic Protestants and German colonists-18, in Germany-13, in most Catholic countries — 35 (in some — in Spain and Italy — about 48), in China, Japan and other countries of East and South Asia — 35. Moreover, their number has increased in the post-reform period. Secondly, the abundance of holidays caused significant harm to the peasant economy, as it took a lot of time and money. If Orthodox Russian peasants had the same number of holidays and Sundays as Western ones, this would give production an additional 3 billion man-days a year and increase the balance of working time by almost 20%, thanks to which the peasants would receive additional income in the amount of 1870 million rubles"Replies: @iffen, @AP, @Art Deco
No wonder the Bolsheviks started killing them off.
But to accuse the Church that it imposed free days out of a grudging work instead of enforcing the desire of the slave masters to force people work 24/7/365 borders on idiocy, nay, it is idiotical.Replies: @melanf, @AP, @AP
Gogol, a Ukrainian pretending to be a Russian, had some conflicts and went mad at the end. Otherwise, you are absolutely right. Tolstoy was an apostate but he was a product of the culture steeped in Orthodoxy.
The rot at the top of the ROC is a product of that Bolshevism that ruins everything but the Church is regenerating from the ground up in spite of that. And with it, Russia is also resurrected.
- * When new anthills are constructed, the temple is often produced years before there is adequate infrastructure. For example, people have complained that when Vekselberg's company is building anthills, they build churches years before there is infrastructure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiEitVt4Y-U. Building the churches for new areas can be apparently higher priority, than connecting new areas to transport. In similar theme - why Kirill is supporting immigration of guestworkers. Not because of "Good Samaritan" teaching - but rather because of pragmatic need for worker supply in the construction industry. https://govoritmoskva.ru/news/139447/
"Orthodox Russian peasants actually had 71 holidays, without Sundays, much more than, for example, in the Baltic provinces, Catholics — 43, Baltic Protestants and German colonists-18, in Germany-13, in most Catholic countries — 35 (in some — in Spain and Italy — about 48), in China, Japan and other countries of East and South Asia — 35. Moreover, their number has increased in the post-reform period. Secondly, the abundance of holidays caused significant harm to the peasant economy, as it took a lot of time and money. If Orthodox Russian peasants had the same number of holidays and Sundays as Western ones, this would give production an additional 3 billion man-days a year and increase the balance of working time by almost 20%, thanks to which the peasants would receive additional income in the amount of 1870 million rubles"Replies: @iffen, @AP, @Art Deco
And how many of those holidays fell during the non-summer months it times after the harvest, when work was less necessary? And despite that famines ceased and output and wealth grew as agriculture improved under late Tsarism.
You had defended the collectivization and brushed off the starvation of millions of peasants because according to you they were useless drunkards anyways. The Bolsheviks forced the peasants to work more, and kept the product for themselves, starving the peasants. Peasants died by the millions, and strong demographic growth plummeted. Russia was cut off at the knees, its fall was assured. The capital accrued under the Tsars was enough to (barely) defeat Germany (with huge losses, further squandering it) but Russia was on its way to the rusted rotten shell of the 90s. Congratulations.
"If you, Your Majesty, destroy the estates, communal land ownership and half of the holidays during your reign, you will leave behind a completely different Russia"Replies: @AP
The Russian classical tradition began with Little Russian (Ukrainian) composers making church music. Berezovsky’s liturgy is beautiful. Almost all Russian composers, such as Tchaikovsky, made music for the Church:
Party Leader % Seats ±
United Russia 49.82% 324 -19
CPRF 18.93% 57 +15
SRZP 7.46% 27 +4
LDPR 7.55% 21 -18
New People 5.32% 13 New
Rodina 0.80% 1 0
Party of Growth 0.52% 1 +1
Civic Platform 0.15% 1 0
Independents – 5 +4
Voter turnout is 51.68%
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg/5050px-2021_Russian_legislative_election_maps.svg.png
(All info is taken from Wikipedia, which is biased for political commentary, but accurate for "hard" numbers as far as officially reported)Replies: @LondonBob, @Not Raul, @HenryBaker
Dumb question, but is 51% voter turnout normal in Russia? Always funny how people fixate on the ‘political’ but never notice the ‘apolitical’. 50% of Russians being completely apathethic seems to be most important result of all.
Still there?
Damn.
Yes
According to svido revisionism. At that point in time, it wasn’t uncommon to view Ukraine (Little Russia) as a regional akin to Russia. Hence, no contradiction in identifying with both. Identifying with New England doesn’t contradict identifying with the US.
Higher than last-time, a completely fair and clean voting process also. Most of the gubernatorial election results very good for ER also.
Most other countries where the presidency election is more prestigious than the parliament one (France, USA, Russia etc), normally have turnout for these parliament /Congress elections in the low-mid 40 percent Region…… so above 50% is excellent
She used to be Latvian Woman. I assume it’s an accurate descriptor.
"Orthodox Russian peasants actually had 71 holidays, without Sundays, much more than, for example, in the Baltic provinces, Catholics — 43, Baltic Protestants and German colonists-18, in Germany-13, in most Catholic countries — 35 (in some — in Spain and Italy — about 48), in China, Japan and other countries of East and South Asia — 35. Moreover, their number has increased in the post-reform period. Secondly, the abundance of holidays caused significant harm to the peasant economy, as it took a lot of time and money. If Orthodox Russian peasants had the same number of holidays and Sundays as Western ones, this would give production an additional 3 billion man-days a year and increase the balance of working time by almost 20%, thanks to which the peasants would receive additional income in the amount of 1870 million rubles"Replies: @iffen, @AP, @Art Deco
His accounting is quite dubious, as it doesn’t distinguish holidays from mandated observances. That aside, there are over 300 weekdays a year, so your comment makes no sense even were his accounting correct.
But to accuse the Church that it imposed free days out of a grudging work instead of enforcing the desire of the slave masters to force people work 24/7/365 borders on idiocy, nay, it is idiotical.Replies: @melanf, @AP, @AP
Agreed. Melanf had praised the Bolshevik forced collectivization, which killed millions. He has a contempt if not hatred for the peasantry, who were 80+% of the Russian people. So no wonder that he hates Orthodoxy also, this attitude matches his attitude towards his own people.
More important is your conclusion that not voting equals apathy. I argue a position not exactly the reverse, but close enough: Voting is a reliable sign of apathy/foolishness/dishonor. Each night before bed I ask G-d to smite all voters.
Still there?
Damn.
Church holidays more or less evenly occurred throughout the year. Since in Russia the time suitable for agricultural works much shorter than in Europe, the guilt of the Byzantine Church is even heavier. In a short time when it was necessary to work, the churchmen forbade labor and accustomed the peasants to idleness and alcoholism.
It was well known that these idiotic holidays were one of the main obstacles to the development of the country. State Secretary Polovtsev for example said to Alexander II
“If you, Your Majesty, destroy the estates, communal land ownership and half of the holidays during your reign, you will leave behind a completely different Russia”
There are very few examples of a successful reform. In general it always fails because elites hold on to privileges – and can easily do it – without fear. Bismarck is probably the best one, Germans were more rational than most at that time, but even Bismarck’s reforms at the end failed, they didn’t go far enough. USA example is questionable, it was largely driven by fear. One example is China, by applying drastic discipline to their new elites, thy have made things better in the last 10 years.
I don’t see the West having the cohesive self-interest needed to reform the system. It is everybody for himself at this point, with some having very bizarre goals – the “welcome” crowd and the charity-NGO-liberal colossus, those are seriously disturbed people and many live of this madness.
There are not even any mainstream political attempts to reform anything – it is a nepotistic cul-de-sac that will go on until the numbers don’t allow it any more. At the end numbers and data run reality.
https://youtu.be/DmM4i7rj_3gReplies: @melanf
Of course, many (but not all!) composers created church music, but for the most part it was work for the sake of money, and the results were not of interest (which is understandable – Orthodox music is strictly “a la capella” and therefore boring). The same Tchaikovsky was very skeptical about the church and Christianity in general, and he is appreciated all over the world not for religious music (which Tchaikovsky did not like) but for completely different works
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.Replies: @Art Deco, @melanf, @Dmitry, @inertial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPlK5HwFxcwReplies: @sher singh
"If you, Your Majesty, destroy the estates, communal land ownership and half of the holidays during your reign, you will leave behind a completely different Russia"Replies: @AP
If the Church holidays are evenly distributed than it makes no difference if the growing season is short because under an even distribution most of the holidays will fall outside the short growing season.
The musical tradition grew out of Church music and most Russian composers made Church music. Even the ones who may have resented the Church were the products of a culture that was to a large degree created and shaped by it. They were like ungrateful rebellious children, angry at their parents to whom they owed their talents and knowledge. Generally speaking, most of what we know as art and culture was produced under the patronage of the reactionary European aristocracies, who were deeply Christian.
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.
You can see the fruits of secularization in the art and architecture of the last century.
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.Replies: @Art Deco, @melanf, @Dmitry, @inertial
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.
You can see the fruits of secularization in the art and architecture of the last century.
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.Replies: @Art Deco, @melanf, @Dmitry, @inertial
In Russia, no. Music (as art in general) was borrowed from Western Europe as a result of” Westernization ” in the 18th century. Therefore, where this music has roots in the church tradition, it is the church tradition of Western Christianity
Ahh, that’s how it is. And in those countries where there were no Soviets, there are still composers of the level of Verdi and Saint-Saens?
https://www.belcanto.ru/diletsky.htmlSo because X killed someone in California, Y couldn't have killed someone in New York?
When Bolsheviks ruined Russia it had become the equal of any other country as a producer of high culture in Europe. This came to an abrupt halt.
And for this reason in short growing season German colonists had four times fewer holidays than Orthodox Russian peasants. In addition, the Orthodox peasant community strictly ensured that no one worked on these holidays, but everyone was drunk. The results of such “Orthodox spirituality” are known – the Russian Orthodox peasant was a beggar, a loafer and an alcoholic.
An accurate description of post-Orthodox Soviet person. Except after Stolypin’s reforms Russian peasants could feed themselves and the world. Under Soviets, mass starvation.
Yes, it was indeed influenced by the West. Its creators were devoutly religious people such as the Ukrainian Diletsky who composed liturgies:
https://www.belcanto.ru/diletsky.html
So because X killed someone in California, Y couldn’t have killed someone in New York?
When Bolsheviks ruined Russia it had become the equal of any other country as a producer of high culture in Europe. This came to an abrupt halt.
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.Replies: @Art Deco, @melanf, @Dmitry, @inertial
No classical music in Russia grows from importation of classical music from Western Europe. It’s just European classical music.
As was the fashion in European music in the second half of the 19th century, some composers in the Russian Empire have a self-conscious attempts to add national/folkloric “trademarks”, but these national trademarks were historically arbitrary (I wrote about it a few months ago https://www.unz.com/akarlin/opinion-poll-is-russia-europe/#comment-4536691 ).
The most non-arbitrary national trademark patterns that composers had added, from the late 19th century, have some relation to the Russian intonation (that is, to Russian language). We can hear these in Scriabin, for example.
(Church music is different genre, but its development and techniques in Russia had also been imported and developed from church music in Western Europe).
https://stanthonysmonastery.org/pages/history-of-byzantine-chantReplies: @Dmitry
The liturgy in use in Orthodox Churches is of 4th century origin.
https://stanthonysmonastery.org/pages/history-of-byzantine-chant
The basis of the harmonic church music was imported from Western Europe (especially Italy) in the 17th century with functional tonality, and in the 18th century the influence on Church music includes Italian composers like Sarti and Galuppi (Bortniansky is the student of Galuppi). There are arguments about the influence of previous harmonies, because there are often nonmonotonal hymns, which resulted in speculation about how the imported modern harmonies would be adapted with previous native folk music. But some of the most popular church music is only from the late 19th century.Replies: @Art Deco
Tchaikovsky’s religious music is out of this world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecEc22Y6F34
https://youtu.be/JXSRlk9IaiE?t=188
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He90vNfWnfw
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
The Church-less Russia of the Soviets killed Russia’s Silver Age and created little but the 90s debauchery and it’s philistinism.Replies: @Art Deco, @melanf, @Dmitry, @inertial
Thanks to the Soviets, Russian culture managed to delay the advent of modernism by several decades. This allowed creation of many towering works of classical music, as well as a unique tradition of popular music beloved to this day.
https://stanthonysmonastery.org/pages/history-of-byzantine-chantReplies: @Dmitry
I didn’t say anything about liturgy (although litury reforms Nikon’s in 17th century had resulted introduction of multivoice singing) – but the music.
The basis of the harmonic church music was imported from Western Europe (especially Italy) in the 17th century with functional tonality, and in the 18th century the influence on Church music includes Italian composers like Sarti and Galuppi (Bortniansky is the student of Galuppi). There are arguments about the influence of previous harmonies, because there are often nonmonotonal hymns, which resulted in speculation about how the imported modern harmonies would be adapted with previous native folk music. But some of the most popular church music is only from the late 19th century.
Somehow liturgical plainchant does not exist in your mind.Replies: @Dmitry
Modernism exploded in the last years of Russian Empire. E.g. Scriabin’s “Poem of Ecstasy” (1905), Piano Sonata 5 (1907); Stravinsky “Sacre du printemps” (1913); Kandinsky writes “Spiritual in Art” (1912); Malevich’s “Black Square” (1915).
Russian Empire artists were world leading pioneers of the modernism movement. There are some years where Scriabin is atonal while Schoenberg was still writing in the German romantic tradition.
Under increasingly conservative and nationalist Soviet political interferences, Shostakovich and Prokofiev were forced to distort their careers to match popular demands, and could create hybrid styles that incorporate modernism. I don’t think you can say this is a good thing because we don’t know how they would have achieved in the alternative situation without the revolution. While you can admire what they have produced, we have no way to know the fruit of their careers would have been worse without Soviet political interference.
For example, Shostakovich’s opera were condemned by the authorities, especially for his operas – this might be a good thing, as he responded with the 5th Symphony. But who knows whether Shostakovich would have really composed worse if he had been free from the stress and pressures created on him by the political situation.
I am more positive about the West’s mid-term prospects of recovery, both in the cultural and economic spheres. As you say, numbers and data drive our evolution, and they will make us bounce back from the current mismanagement in the coming decades. That relates to the economic realm. The cultural problem I’m afraid will be solved by violent means. My message to you though is that parts of the elite (or the privileged as you call it) are not onboard the current mismanagement, can see long term, and are willing to make things better for the whole polity.
The basis of the harmonic church music was imported from Western Europe (especially Italy) in the 17th century with functional tonality, and in the 18th century the influence on Church music includes Italian composers like Sarti and Galuppi (Bortniansky is the student of Galuppi). There are arguments about the influence of previous harmonies, because there are often nonmonotonal hymns, which resulted in speculation about how the imported modern harmonies would be adapted with previous native folk music. But some of the most popular church music is only from the late 19th century.Replies: @Art Deco
I didn’t say anything about liturgy (although litury reforms Nikon’s in 17th century had resulted introduction of multivoice singing) – but the music.
Somehow liturgical plainchant does not exist in your mind.
To repeat as I wrote already, liturgy reforms have an influence in the music to an extent of allowing polyphony from the 17th. But I am writing about church music, not about liturgy.
Church music of today is result of the 17th, 18th and (even to significant extent) 19th century.Replies: @Art Deco, @Seraphim
Somehow liturgical plainchant does not exist in your mind.Replies: @Dmitry
You’re not very good in reading.
To repeat as I wrote already, liturgy reforms have an influence in the music to an extent of allowing polyphony from the 17th. But I am writing about church music, not about liturgy.
Church music of today is result of the 17th, 18th and (even to significant extent) 19th century.
Liturgical chant is of late antique and early medieval origin.
You’re not very good in reading.
You're making ex cathedra pronouncements which are false.
You don’t need me to say this is simplistic. Church was suffering already some organizational and economic crisis in the second half of the 19th century. Needless to say, October 1917 is nearly fatal disaster for the church – it was expropriated and repressed by 1922. But it still survived as a repressed group through 1920s-30s.
Then there is a “salvation” – during war in the early 1940s, Stalin revived the church and re-opened tens of thousands of temples. Then even with Khrushchev was very anti-religious, but despite the anti-religious ideology he doesn’t directly expropriate or repress the church, and church continued operating (although in reduced output) through the rest of the Soviet times – allowing its 1990s flourishing.
1990s there was some evidence of “religious revival” in the population – it became fashionable to baptize children, and the church services were overfilling with people (so that the church capacity was below the number of people who wanted to attend). Overfilling churches however was partly illusion created by having a low church capacity.
The peak of attendance of people for services was in the late 1990s, and since then there has been small decline in number of attendance, despite a overproduction of churches. That is, in most years less than 3% of people in Russia attend services in a church for Easter.
Among self-identifying Orthodox, monthly communion attendance around 1,2%. So monthly communion attendance is below 1% of the total population.
So the hope of the 1990s revival of the religion in average people, has not followed. Church following people are only a few million. Part of the problem for the Orthodox Church, is in a nature of its attraction, which is mainly to people who are at middle age and above. That’s people turn to this brand of spirituality in their less active years. Perhaps its proportion will increase with the aging population. (It’s not like American Mormon or Evangelical spirituality, which have some booming attraction for the younger people.)
On the other hand, as an informal branch of government (and construction industry), as well as protege of many billionaires, the Russian Orthodox Church (as well as on lesser side the other branches of official religions) have never been so funded and successful as today.
That is, the Church have now a very strong and elite, symbolic* and political position, in Russia although this is far from an independent power from the authorities. It’s part of the power structure now.
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* When new anthills are constructed, the temple is often produced years before there is adequate infrastructure. For example, people have complained that when Vekselberg’s company is building anthills, they build churches years before there is infrastructure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiEitVt4Y-U. Building the churches for new areas can be apparently higher priority, than connecting new areas to transport.
In similar theme – why Kirill is supporting immigration of guestworkers. Not because of “Good Samaritan” teaching – but rather because of pragmatic need for worker supply in the construction industry. https://govoritmoskva.ru/news/139447/
To repeat as I wrote already, liturgy reforms have an influence in the music to an extent of allowing polyphony from the 17th. But I am writing about church music, not about liturgy.
Church music of today is result of the 17th, 18th and (even to significant extent) 19th century.Replies: @Art Deco, @Seraphim
Church music of today is result of the 17th, 18th and (even to significant extent) 19th century.
Liturgical chant is of late antique and early medieval origin.
You’re not very good in reading.
You’re making ex cathedra pronouncements which are false.
To repeat as I wrote already, liturgy reforms have an influence in the music to an extent of allowing polyphony from the 17th. But I am writing about church music, not about liturgy.
Church music of today is result of the 17th, 18th and (even to significant extent) 19th century.Replies: @Art Deco, @Seraphim
As if liturgy is not church music!
I’m talking about music – you know, notes in air. In the Russian Orthodox Church, this is a (often very beautiful) music developed on the framework of Western music and music theory from 17th-19th century, in the early years mainly Italianate influence. Liturgical reforms of the 17th, enabled more musical styles to be imported.
There is some debate about whether there are distinctive musical features in Russian church music composers that represented some degree of influence of older native harmonic traditions in Russia, but from the first few notes anyone’s ears knows what the main influence is considering its intervals.
All I said was that: ‘All Russian composers composed music for Church services’. Actually notes on paper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPlK5HwFxcwReplies: @sher singh
Sounds pretty gay.
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ