>>> HI THERE, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP .

>> PRESIDENTS ARE ENTITLED TO HAVE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WANT.

>> TRUMPET PICKS HIS TEAM AND EVEN SOME REPUBLICANS ARE CAUGHT OFF GUARD.

I GET THE LATEST FROM WASHINGTON.

>>> WE WILL BE OPERATING UNTIL THE DAY WE CANNOT OPERATE ANYMORE.

>> HUNGER AND HOPELESSNESS IN GAZA.

NOT NEARLY ENOUGH AID TO HELP.

HEAD OF THE RELIEF AGENCY JOINS ME.

>> THEY WANTED DONALD TRUMP, IS GOING TO HAVE VERY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES ON OUR OWN LIVES.

>> FRANCE'S FORMER PRESIDENT FRANCOIS HOLLANDE REACTS TO THE RETURN OF TRUMP IN THE GLOBAL FAR RIGHT.

>>> ONE OF THE MOST TRANSACTIONAL PRESIDENTS AND FINANCIAL AS PRESIDENTS.

ONE OF THE MOST OF INTERESTED >> THE FINANCIAL TIMES TALKS ABOUT THE BOOMING AMERICAN ECONOMY DUE FOR A DOWN TERM.

>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM .

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DONALD TRUMP WILL BE INAUGURATED IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS TIME.

WILL HE GET THE CABINET HE WANTS HEADING INTO THE SECOND TERM?

SENATOR MARCO RUBIO LOOKS SET TO BE SECRETARY OF STATE.

SOME OF TRUMP'S OTHER PICS ARE RAISING EYEBROWS, NOT JUST AMONGST DEMOCRATS BUT IN HIS OWN PARTY.

LIKE HIS CHOICE FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL >> GATES, THE NOW RETIRED FLORIDA CONGRESSMAN KNOWN FOR HIS PERNICIOUS BEHAVIOR, UNDER INVESTIGATION BY THE ETHICS COMMITTEE.

ACCUSED OF BEING IN THE POCKET OF RUSSIA'S PRESIDENT PUTIN.

EVEN ASIDE.

IN THE SECRETARY OF.

FOR DEFENSE, THESE ARE NOT JUST ARDENT LOYALISTS.

THEIR LACK OF RELEVANT QUALIFICATIONS FOR SUCH IMPORTANT ROLES CONCERNS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY AND OTHERS, ESPECIALLY IF TRUMP TRIES TO RAM THEM THROUGH WITHOUT APPROPRIATE SENATE CONSIDERATION.

>> THAT WOULD BE THE END OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE.

IF THE SENATE CHOSE TO END THE POWER OF VICE AND CONSENT AND THE PRESIDENT CHOOSES INPUT WITHOUT ANY CONFIRMATION PROCESS OR APPROVAL FOR THE CABINET , I DON'T KNOW WHY WE WOULD CONTINUE TO SHOW UP FOR WORK.

THAT'S NOT A DEMOCRACY ANYMORE.

>> LET'S GO TO WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I THINK THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT, WHAT HE JUST SAID.

IT WOULDN'T BE A DEMOCRACY ANYMORE.

WHAT WILL THE REST OF THE WORLD THINK OF IN AMERICA THAT HAS ON?

ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE LAND THROUGH?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING IN WASHINGTON?

>> THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FIRST REAL TEST OF TRUMP'S MANDATE IF HE PERHAPS OVER EXERCISES IT, OR IF REPUBLICANS FOLLOW ALONG.

WE WILL FOLLOW ALONG IN THE SENATE.

THE ROLE OF THE SENATE IS TO ADVISE AND CONSENT.

IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE ALL REPUBLICAN SENATORS WOULD GO ALONG WITH THESE NOMINEES.

LET'S START WITH MATT GATES.

THERE IS NO MORE DIVISIVE FIGURE EVEN AMONG REPUBLICANS AND AN UNSERIOUS FIGURE THAN MATT GATES.

HE HAS ONE QUALIFICATION FIRST AND FOREMOST THEY DREW HIM TO THE PRESIDENT-ELECT, HIS LOYALTY AND WILLINGNESS TO DO VIRTUALLY WHATEVER YOU WOULD LIKE.

ONE REGRET STANDS ABOVE ALL FROM TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, JEFF SESSIONS, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WENT ON TO RECUSE HIMSELF IN THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION .

DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT THIS TIME AROUND.

LOYALTY IS FIRST AND FOREMOST.

HOW MANY REPUBLICAN SENATORS WILL STAND UP?

MATT GAETZ WILL BE THE ULTIMATE >> IT DOES PUT IN QUESTION THE IDEA OF AMERICA'S COMMITMENT TO THE RULE OF LAW.

WHAT OTHER IDEALS THAT I HAVE MENTIONED, CONCERN ABOUT DEFENSE AND ALSO TULSA GABBARD FOR NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DIRECTOR.

ONE OF THE QUALIFICATIONS AND WHAT ARE THE PITFALLS?

>> I THINK TULSA GABBARD, SHE WAS A DEMOCRAT, SHE WAS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES BUT HAS BECOME VERY PRONE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND FRIENDLY WITH THE PRESIDENT- ELECT AND HIS TEAM.

TO THE RELEVANT SENATORS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, THEY WILL REALLY SCRUTINIZE HER.

SHE HAS AN FBI BACKGROUND CHECK.

THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HER.

IF NOT FOR MATT GAETZ, THERE'S NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT TULSA GABBARD WOULD BE THE FIRST ON THE LIST OF SOME EYE ROLLS AMONG SENATE REPUBLICANS.

I THINK THE REST OF THE CABINET NOMINEES GO ON FROM THERE.

THE DEFENSE SECRETARY, THERE IS NO DOUBT WHAT THE PLAN SORT OF IS GOING FORWARD ON THAT, BUT IT IS MATT GATES AND TULSA GABBARD.

IT IS THE PRESIDENT'S CABINET.

HE HAS THE ABILITY TO PUT IN WHO HE WOULD LIKE BUT I BELIEVE HE HAS SOME CHALLENGES ON THOSE TWO.

HEGSETH FOR DEFENSE, I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF HE DID NOT GET CONFIRMED AT LEAST UNLESS WE LEARN SOMETHING ELSE.

HE IS A FOX NEWS WEEKEND HOST.

HE IS A RISING STAR ON THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE OF THE AISLE AND I THINK MOST OF IT REPUBLICANS WILL PROBABLY SWALLOW THAT AND NOT BLOCK THE PRESIDENT-ELECT ON MANY THINGS.

BUT AGAIN ON MATT GAETZ, THAT COULD BE A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

WE SHALL SEE.

>> AGAIN, HEGSETH IS CONTROVERSIAL.

AGAINST THE EI AND THE PENTAGON.

ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL INSTITUTIONS THAT WORKS REALLY INDEED HE HELPED PERSUADE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO PARDON SOLDIERS WHO WERE ACCUSED OF COMMITTING WAR CRIMES, SO I THINK THERE IS THAT, IN THAT SORT OF CLOSET , IF YOU LIKE.

BUT LOOK AT, YOU REMEMBER WHEN A LOT OF THE MAGA CONGRESSPEOPLE TALKED ABOUT BURNING THE PLACE DOWN.

WE ARE NOT HERE TO GOVERN.

WE ARE HERE TO COMPLETELY CHANGE AND AND THESE INSTITUTIONS.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT IS ON THE CARDS?

>> DEFINITELY TO SHAKE UP WASHINGTON AND TURN IT UPSIDE DOWN.

I AM NOT SURE , BURN IT DOWN, HOPEFULLY THE RELEVANT GUARDRAILS ARE IN PLACE FOR THAT.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE WON THE FULL MAJORITY.

THEY HAVE THE TRIFECTA HERE.

THEY WILL CONTROL THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES BY A NARROW MARGIN AND INDEED, THE SENATE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO BE A WAIT AND SEE.

IN TERMS OF HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THIS, I AM STRUCK BY, AS PRESIDENT BIDEN IS FLYING OFF FOR WHAT COULD BE HIS LAST AT THE CONFERENCE, HE WILL BE ASKED BY WORLD LEADERS WHAT IS GOING ON.

IT REMINDS ME ABOUT WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA AT THE TIME IN THE FALL OF 2016 WAS ASKED ABOUT.

WHO IS THIS MAN, DONALD TRUMP, THAT AMERICA HAS JUST ELECTED?

WELL, BOY, THERE ARE SOME LONG ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN WILL ALSO MEET XI JINPING.

I REMEMBER I WAS IN HELSINKI, WHERE HE APPEARED TO GIVE MORE CREDENCE TO RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE THAN HIS OWN AGENCIES.

THIS IS DANGEROUS FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, ISN'T IT?

>> IT WAS.

I WAS IN HELSINKI AT THE TIME, AS WELL.

DID SEEM TO HAVE SOME RELEVANT SENIOR OFFICIALS AROUND HIM AT THE RELEVANT AGENCIES.

THEY WERE EITHER FIRED OR THEY QUIT.

SO NOW HE IS NOMINATED TO BE AROUND HIM CERTAINLY LEADING ON THEY ARE ALL LOYALISTS AND SOMEONE SAY SYCOPHANTS.

IT IS WITHOUT QUESTION DANGEROUS AND UNPRECEDENTED TO SAY THE LEAST.

>> JEFF, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AS WE WAIT AND SEE HOW THIS PROCEEDS.

JUST TO SAY ALSO, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, WHICH IS A BASTION OF CONSERVATIVES, PARTICULARLY THE EDITORIAL BOARD, HAS SAID THAT MATT GAETZ IS A BAD CHOICE FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL AND WRITTEN A FULL SOME REASON WHY.

IT IS AMAZING TO BE WATCHING.

>>> NEXT WE GO TO GAZA.

A NEW HUMAN RIGHTS REPORT SAYS ISRAEL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MASS FORCIBLE TO --DISPLACEMENT OF PALESTINIANS, WHICH THEY DEEM A WAR CRIME AND A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

ISRAEL'S MILITARY SAID IN RESPONSE IT IS COMMITTED TO INTERNATIONAL LAW AND OPERATES ACCORDINGLY.

THE U.N.

RECENTLY FOUND CLOSE TO 70% OF THE DEAD IN GAZA WERE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

MEANWHILE, THE PALESTINIAN RELIEF AGENCY FACES BEING SHUT DOWN WITHIN THREE MONTHS.

ISRAEL ACCUSES IT OF COLLABORATING WITH HAMAS.

IN THIS WAR, MORE THAN 200 U.N. EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN KILLED, AND THEY WARN THAT IF IT IS SHUT DOWN, NO OTHER ORGANIZATION CAN REPLACE THE AID DELIVERY SYSTEM.

I SPOKE TO THE HEAD OF THE ORGANIZATION PHILIPPE LAZZARINI EARLIER FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ALL ABOUT THE APOCALYPTIC SITUATION IN GAZA IN THE NORTH.

LET'S START WITH THE LATEST HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT.

THEY ARE SAYING THAT ISRAEL IS BASICALLY OVERSEEING THE FORCED MASS DISPLACEMENT OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

THEY USE THE WORD DELIBERATE SYSTEMATIC CAMPAIGN.

AMOUNTS TO A WAR CRIME AND A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE NORTH?

COLLEAGUES ON THE REPORT THAT WE ARE GETTING, WHAT THEY ARE DESCRIBING IS A POST- APOCALYPTIC ENVIRONMENT.

BASICALLY PEOPLE JUST WAITING TO BE KILLED, EITHER BY AIRSTRIKE, BY DISEASE, EVEN BY HUNGER.

IT'S A TRUTH THAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST MONTHS, BEING ON THE TOTAL SIEGE WHERE HUNGER HAS BEEN WEAPON EYES , AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FORCIBLY DISPLACED.

AND I HEAR FROM MY COLLEAGUES THAT NO ONE IS AUTHORIZED TO GO BACK THERE TO THE NORTH.

SO BY ANY ACCOUNT, THERE IS INDEED A POLICY OF FORCED DISPLACEMENT.

>> AND I WANT TO ASK YOU FURTHER, LIKE THERE HAS BEEN AN INVESTIGATION THAT THE IDF IS BUILDING ROADS AND BASES IN THE COURT ORDER THAT SPLITS THE TERRITORY , EIGHT BY EIGHT IT IS A HUGE SWATHS OF LAND.

THEY HAVE INVESTIGATED AND THE CONCLUSION IS THAT IDF IS PREPARING TO STAY THERE AT LEAST FOR ALL OF 2025 AND BE KIND --BEYOND.

YOU SEE THE KIND OF PREPARATIONS FOR A MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE, AND WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN FOR THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION?

>> WELL, IF THIS IS THE CASE, THAT MEANS NORTHERN GAZA IS NOT THE LAND ANYMORE FOR THE PALESTINIANS AND THERE IS NO WAY THAT IT WILL COME BACK ANYTIME SOON.

WHICH MEANS THAT THE PALESTINIANS NOW ARE CONCENTRATED IN ABOUT 10% OF THE TERRITORY IN THE SOUTH OF GAZA.

THEY HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT WILL THE PALESTINIANS BE EXPELLED FROM GAZA, WILL WE OBSERVE A SECOND --FOR THE TIME BEING?

WHAT WE SEE IS THE POPULATION WHO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE TO GO.

BUT YES, WE SEE A LASTING PRESENCE OF THE IS REALLY ARMY, AT LEAST IN NORTHERN GAZA.

>> ON TOP OF THAT, AS YOU SAY THE HARROWING REALITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT GETTING ENOUGH FOOD, CIVILIANS ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE SEEING OTHERS DYING OF HUNGER.

LET'S PUT IT LIKE THIS.

AS YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE PASSED A LAW AIMING TO DISMANTLE THE ACTIVITIES.

THEY SAY THEY WANT TO BAN THEM.

DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOUR ORGANIZATION CANNOT BE THE HUMANITARIAN AGENCY TO DELIVER AID FOR PEOPLE.

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY WANT TO GET RID OF IN GAZA AND IN THE REST OF THE WEST BANK.

IS THAT IT WILL PUT AN END TO THE REFUGEE STATUS OF THE PALESTINIANS.

BASICALLY THEY ARE ALSO SAYING TO PERPETUATE THE VICTIM OUT OF THE PALESTINIANS.

NOW IF UNRWA HAS TO LEAVE, THAT MEANS THE BACKGROUND OF THE RESPONSE WILL COLLAPSE .

AT THE TIME, NEEDS OF NEVER BEEN SO HIGH.

BEYOND THE RESPONSE, WHAT IS ALSO AT STAKE IS THE FUTURE OF THE EDUCATION OF 600,000 GIRLS AND BOYS CURRENTLY LIVING IN THE RUBBLE AND BEING DEEPLY TRAUMATIZED BECAUSE THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER U.N. AGENCY OR INTERNATIONAL NGO CAPABLE OF BRINGING BACK IN A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT SUCH A NUMBER OF CHILDREN.

ONLY AN INSTITUTION CAN DO THIS, ONLY A STATE OF PALESTINE CAN DO THIS.

>> AS YOU KNOW, UNRWA HAS BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS.

THE U.N. HAS FIRED NINE STAFF MEMBERS AFTER INTERNAL INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT THEY MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE OCTOBER SEVENS ATTACK.

AS YOU KNOW, ISRAEL HAS ACCUSED A NUMBER OF UNRWA .

THEY HAVE EVEN SAID UNRWA IS A FRONT FOR HAMAS.

YESTERDAY, THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR CALLED FOR YOU TO RESIGN, WHILE STANDING NEXT TO THE MOTHER OF A HOSTAGE.

SHE CLAIMS HER SON WAS TAKEN HOSTAGE BY A UNRWA STAFF MEMBER.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN .

>> EARLIER TODAY, THE COMMITTEE, I CONFRONTED COMMISSIONER LAZZARINI ON HIS RESPONSIBILITY FOR UNRWA'S INFILTRATION BY HAMAS , IT'S FOSTERING OF TERRORISM AND HIS TOTAL FAILURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

I DEMANDED THAT COMMISSIONER LAZZARINI RESIGNED IF HE HAD ANY DECENCY.

>> THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A VERY EMOTIONAL PUBLIC DEMAND AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A WAR OF WORDS OR POLITICAL WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND UNRWA.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> WELL, THE AMBASSADOR SHARED THE SAME STATEMENT IN FRONT OF THE COMMITTEE YESTERDAY.

AND BASICALLY SAID I REALLY FEEL THE PAIN OF THE MOTHER, THE PAIN OF ANY HOSTAGES, OF ANY PALESTINIAN MOTHER WHO HAS LOST THE CHILDREN.

I ALSO SAY IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE START TO PROMOTE COMPASSION.

PEOPLE HAVE COMPASSION FOR THE ISRAELI PEOPLE OR EXPRESS COMPASSION FOR PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, BUT NO ONE REALLY IS IN THE POSITION TO UNDERSTAND THE SUFFERING OF THE OTHERS.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO PROMOTE TODAY.

>> DO YOU PLAN TO RESIGN?

>> I DON'T PLAN TO RESIGN, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT THE ATTACK IS NOT ON MY PERSON, BUT ON THE FUNCTION I AM PLAYING AS COMMISSIONER GENERAL.

WHICH MEANS ANY FUTURE COMMISSIONER GENERAL WILL BE ATTACKED IN THE SAME WAY.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ONGOING ARGUMENTS OVER THE SEQUENCING OF AID.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYBODY, AND CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE OF GAZA KNOW THAT NOT ENOUGH AID IS GETTING THROUGH.

THEY HAD A DEADLINE WITH WHICH TO WITHHOLD WEAPONS FOR ISRAEL WHICH CAME AND WENT WITHOUT MUCH IMPROVEMENT, SO ISRAEL SAYS THAT THERE IS A TON OF AID INSIDE THE GAZA BORDER AND IT'S JUST WAITING FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO DISTRIBUTE IT.

YOU'RE ALL SAYING THAT THERE ISN'T AID COMING IN AND IN ANY EVENT, YOU ARE BASICALLY BEING HINDERED BY THE IDF FROM DISTRIBUTING IT.

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL FACT?

FIRST, LET ME PLAY WHAT THE HEAD OF ISRAEL'S COORDINATING AID BODY SAID TO CNN YESTERDAY.

>> WE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THE ORGANIZATIONS TO SEE IT GET TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO GET TO.

WE HAVE CLEARED THE AID.

IT'S GONE THROUGH SECURITY.

IT'S ON THE GAZA SIDE WAITING TO BE DISTRIBUTED.

THEY NEED TO INCREASE THE CAPACITY FOR DISTRIBUTION.

DAVE AND DID THE TOTAL OF AROUND 30 TRUCKS TO EXPAND THEIR CAPABILITIES.

IT'S NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

WE'VE BEEN MONTHS TO PURCHASE ADDITIONAL TRUCKS.

THEY ARE NOT TAKING THE STEPS THEY NEEDED TO GET THERE.

THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS NEED TO INCREASE THEIR CAPACITY IF WE WANT TO SEE MORE HUMANITARIAN AID WHERE IT NEEDS TO GET TO.

>> THERE IS A TERM LIKE CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD.

EACH PERSON SAYING NO IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT THE AID IS NOT GETTING THERE.

THE FACT IS THAT AID IS NOT GETTING TO PEOPLE.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO BLAMING THE INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES?

>> I THINK IT IS TIME FOR INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS TO BE ON THE GROUND -- >> WE DO, TOO.

ON THE RECORD, WE DO, AS WELL.

WE BELIEVE IT IS TIME FOR US TO BE THERE AND WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO TELL THE ACTUAL STORY AND THE FACTS OF WHAT IS GOING ON ON THE GROUND, BUT CONTINUE.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

THE REASON A WAR OF NARRATIVE, THE SITUATION HAS NEVER BEEN AS DIRE.

WE'VE NEVER BROUGHT IN AS LITTLE, AND WE HAVE ON THE OTHER SIDE, THEY ARE CLAIMING THAT NEVER PROVIDED AS MUCH ASSISTANCE.

REALITY IS HUNGER IS SPREADING.

FAMINE IS LIVING AGAIN.

THIS IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE ASSISTANCE IS TO BE COMMENSURATE WITH WHAT THE NEEDS ARE ALL ABOUT.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, IN CASE IT IS NOT CLEAR, WE, THE INTERNATIONAL PRESS, ARE PREVENTED FROM ISRAEL BY GOING IN THERE.

WHAT I WANT TO ASK NOW IS WHETHER THE TRUMP REELECTION, HE ALSO HAS A HISTORY OF HOSTILITY TO UNRWA.

IN HIS FIRST TERM, HE CUT FUNDS TO YOUR ORGANIZATION.

HE HAS SELECTED PRO-ISRAELI OFFICIALS, HARDLINERS IN KEY CABINET POSTS INCLUDING THE NEXT AMBASSADOR.

CLAIMING THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PALESTINIAN, OCCUPATION, ET CETERA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS FOR THE WELFARE, THE HUMAN BODY AND SOUL WELFARE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE UNDER TRUMP 2.0?

>> FOR US, THE FIRST PRIORITY IS TO MAKE SURE WE CAN CONTINUE TO PROVIDE ITS SERVICES.

WOULD THIS NOT BE THE CASE, I THINK IT WILL BE CATASTROPHIC FOR THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

WE KEEP HEARING ONE OF THE PRIORITIES OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION IS TO PROMOTE PEACE.

IF WE PROMOTED PEACE, IT MIGHT ALSO GENERATE A POLITICAL PATHWAY IN WHICH I BELIEVE AN ORGANIZATION LIKE OURS IS PROVIDING CRITICAL SERVICE LIKE EDUCATION AND HEALTH UNTIL THE DAY THERE IS A PROPER ALTERNATIVE TO TAKE OVER THE SERVICES.

>> IF YOU HAD TO BET KNOWING EVERYTHING YOU KNOW, YOU MUST KNOW WHAT NEGOTIATIONS IF ANY ARE GOING ON.

DOES THAT SEEM LIKELY ANYTIME SOON?

>> I'M NOT READY TO GIVE UP.

I STILL BELIEVE THERE MIGHT BE TUNNEL.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH LONGER THIS IS ALL ABOUT.

IT'S TRUE THAT IT'S VERY EASY NOWADAYS, BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING.

>> CAN WE CONFIRM THAT YOU ARE PERSONALLY BANNED FROM ENTERING GAZA?

>> I AM PERSONALLY BANNED FROM ENTERING GAZA SINCE JANUARY AND PERSONALLY BANNED FROM ENTERING JERUSALEM SINCE JUNE OF THIS YEAR.

>> WHAT HAS IT MEANT FOR THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION AND THE DELIVERY , AND HOW HAVE YOUR WORKERS SURVIVED?

TELL ME WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO UNRWA WORKERS IN GAZA.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AN ENVIRONMENT OF FEAR.

THESE LAWS ARE ALSO FUELING IT.

WE HAD AN INCIDENT LAST WEEK WHERE THE IDF WAS SEARCHING HOUSES IN THE NORTHERN WEST BANK AND ENTERED INTO AN APARTMENT.

THEY SAW THAT THE PERSON IS WALKING WITH UNRWA BECAUSE OF THE COMPUTER.

THIS OUTCOME YOU ARE WORKING WITH A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION?

FORCED THE STAFF TO TAKE HOLD OF THE COMPUTER.

BROUGHT TO AN INTERROGATION PLACE FOR SIX HOURS.

THAT EXPOSES OUR STAFF EVEN MUCH MORE TO ARREST.

>> PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> DONALD TRUMP'S VICTORY IN THE UNITED STATES AS PART OF A LARGER SHIFT TO THE RIGHT ACROSS THE GLOBE, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE.

WHILE SOME LEADERS , LIKE HUNGARY'S, ARE ALL IN, OTHERS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC WORLD ORDER.

SO HOW IS THE WORLD PREPARING AND WHAT DID THE PRESIDENCY MEAN FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE?

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE WAS THE CENTERLEFT PRESIDENT OF UNTIL 2017.

HE JOINS ME NOW IN THE STUDIO.

MR. PRESIDENT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE INVITATION.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE AS THE FORMER LEADER OF FRANCE AND THE CURRENT MP, OF THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP?

DONALD TRUMP 2.0.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

>> Translator: THIS ELECTION WAS NOT SO SURPRISING, BECAUSE IT ALLOWED TRUMP TO RETURN AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT WAS THE SCALE OF HIS WIN WHICH WAS REALLY SURPRISING.

>> WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR EUROPE WHEN YOU SEE THIS SHIFT, AS YOU JUST SAID, A MASSIVE SHIFT TO THE RIGHT?

AT THE SAME TIME IT IS HAPPENING IN EUROPE, AS WELL.

EVEN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY WITH A MARINE LE PEN.

IN HUNGARY, AND ITALY.

>> THERE IS THIS TREND WHICH IS NOT UNIQUE TO THE U.S., WHICH IS NOW RISING IN EUROPE.

A RETURN TO NATIONALISM, FEAR AND SO ON, BUT THE VARIOUS FAR RIGHT MOVEMENTS GETTING INSPIRATION FROM TRUMP ARE ALSO ANXIOUS ABOUT WHAT TRUMP IS ACTUALLY GOING TO DO.

SO LET'S JUST SAY WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO DO NOW, AND I KNOW HIM ESPECIALLY WELL TO KNOW THAT HE WILL DO WHAT HE SAYS WITH HIGHER TARIFFS, APPEAL FOR EUROPEAN INVESTMENT IN THE U.S., COMMERCIAL CONFRONTATION WITH CHINA WHICH WILL WEAKEN GLOBAL ECONOMIC GROWTH.

ALL OF THAT WILL BE A MAJOR CHALLENGE FOR EUROPE, AND SO ALL THESE PEOPLE CALLING FOR PROTECTIONISM AND AMERICAN WITHDRAWAL, THEY WILL ALL SUFFER FROM THE POLITICS OF TRUMP, SO THAT WILL CERTAINLY BE A POLITICAL CHALLENGE.

AND THAT IS WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES ALL HAVE TO ADDRESS WITH THE FAR RIGHT.

SO WHAT THEY WANT WITH DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO HAVE VERY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES ON OUR OWN LIVES.

>> SO EUROPE ANTICIPATING HIS RETURN.

MANY EUROPEANS TRIED TO TRUMP PROOF, SET UP THEIR OWN DEFENSES AND RESPONSES EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTION.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT THE CURRENT FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON SAID IN BUDAPEST AT A MEETING THIS PAST WEEKEND.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: THERE HAS BEEN A STRATEGIC AWAKENING THAT WE MUST EMBRACE AS EUROPEANS.

WE CANNOT ENTRUST OUR SECURITY TO THE AMERICANS FOREVER.

I BELIEVE IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT WE ARE NOW PROVIDERS OF SECURITY SOLUTIONS.

>> Translator: THE MESSAGE HAS NOT ALWAYS BEEN PROPERLY HEARD OR UNDERSTOOD, BUT NOW THAT TRUMP IS GOING NOT ONLY TO WITHDRAWAL AMERICAN FORCES STATIONED IN EUROPE, U.S.

SOLDIERS ARE GOING TO RETURN HOME AFTER ALL.

BUT HE WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY ASK NATO TO SHARE THE BURDEN OF COST OF THE SECURITY OF EUROPE.

DO WHAT THEY WANT, BUT IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOUR UP TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR ITS OWN SECURITY AND PROPER AGREEMENT WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID WITH THE HEAD OF THE NATIONAL RALLY BEFORE THIS ELECTION IN FRANCE THIS SUMMER.

>> WE ARE DEFENDERS OF NATIONS.

WE WANT TO EUROPE OF NATIONS THAT RESPECTS THE DECISIONS OF THE PEOPLE AND NOT A SUPER TECHNOCRATIC STRUCTURE SUCH AS IT EXISTS TODAY.

>> WHAT IS SHE SAYING?

>> Translator: MARINE LE PEN IS BEING CAUTIOUS BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT WANT TO ROCK THE BOAT.

THE POSITION IS CERTAINLY NOT TO LEAVE THE EU.

NOBODY WANTS TO LEAVE THE EU.

THE EXAMPLE HAS BEEN VERY INSTRUCTIVE ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES, BUT SHE DOES NOT WANT EUROPE TO PROGRESS.

THE VARIOUS FAR RIGHT MOVEMENTS OTHERS ARE NOT LOOKING TO BREAK UP THE EUROPEAN UNION.

THEY DON'T WANT TO UPSET PUBLIC OPINION AFTER ALL, BUT THE FAR RIGHT WANTS TO STOP THE CONSTRUCTION OF EUROPE.

PREVENT ANY FURTHER INTEGRATION.

INCLUDING ON THE SECURITY ISSUE.

AND THEY ARE AMBIGUOUS ABOUT RUSSIA, TOO.

WHICH OR BOND CERTAINLY DOES NOT CONCEAL AND MARINE LE PEN TRIES TO EVADE.

WE KNOW WELL ABOUT THE LINKS BETWEEN THE FAR RIGHT, THE FRENCH, ITALIAN, HUNGARIAN FAR RIGHT GROUPS THAT ALIGNS WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> I WAS GOING TO COME TO THIS.

THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE IS STILL THE BIG QUESTION.

NOBODY KNOWS WHERE IT IS GOING TO GO.

DONALD TRUMP HAS EXPRESSED A DIFFERENT USE.

PRO PUTIN, PRO-NEGOTIATION WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HE HAS APPOINTED AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY, A FOX NEWS ANCHOR.

THEY'VE ALL HAD PRETTY NEGATIVE OR AMBIGUOUS VIEWS, SKEPTICAL OF AID TO UKRAINE.

IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO UKRAINE IN THIS NEXT ADMINISTRATION , IN THE NEXT SIX MONTHS?

>> WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAYS HIMSELF.

HE WANTS TO STOP THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE.

EVEN IN THE SPACE OF A COUPLE OF DAYS.

SO HE IS GOING TO STOP ALL AID TO UKRAINE.

AND HE IS GOING TO ASK FOR A PEACE CONFERENCE TO BE ORGANIZED.

AND THIS WILL BEING ABANDONING THE TERRITORIES WHICH ARE OCCUPIED AT THE MOMENT BY RUSSIAN FORCES ON UKRAINIAN TERRITORY, WHICH WOULD BE TANTAMOUNT TO A CAPITULATION OF THE PART OF UKRAINE.

NOT TO PUSH AS FAR AS KYIV, BUT TO ABSORB AS WAS DONE IN THE CASE OF CRIMEA TO ABSORB INTO RUSSIA THE TERRITORIES THEY ARE CURRENTLY OCCUPYING.

CAN EUROPE THWART THIS PROCESS?

YES, PROVIDED WE CONTINUE TO SUPPLY UKRAINE WITH MILITARY AID, BUT AT A MUCH HIGHER LEVEL, BECAUSE IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO WITHDRAW FROM UKRAINE.

>> DO YOU THINK EUROPE WILL ALLOW UKRAINE TO USE WEAPONS THE WAY THEY WANT TO INCLUDING LONG-RANGE WEAPONS TO STRIKE RUSSIAN MILITARY TARGETS?

AND SHOULD THE UNITED STATES CHANGE ITS POLICY TO ALLOW UKRAINE TO DO THAT BEFORE THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION?

>> Translator: KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THERE ARE NORTH KOREAN SOLDIERS ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY ATTACKING UKRAINIAN FORCES, SHOULD WE NOT REACT TO THAT?

THAT WOULD SHOW UNPRECEDENTED WEAKNESS.

SO IF RUSSIA FORCES ARE USING CONTINGENTS LIKE NORTH KOREAN FORCES, OF COURSE WE MUST AUTHORIZE UKRAINE TO USE SUCH MISSILES.

>> WHEN WE LAST SPOKE, YOU SAID PUTIN ONLY UNDERSTANDS STRENGTH.

DO YOU THINK THE WEST, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE GIVEN ALL OF THESE WEAPONS, HAVE JUST NOT GIVEN ENOUGH?

AND HAVE ALMOST AS SOME PEOPLE SAY, ALLOWED UKRAINE TO SURVIVE, BUT NOT TO WIN?

IN FACT, TOULOUSE SLOWLY.

>> Translator: IT IS TRUE THAT EUROPE HAS NOT GIVEN ENOUGH TO UKRAINE AND WE HAVE NOT PUT THEM IN THE POSITION TO WIN.

POSITION TO RESIST.

THAT BECOMES MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO READ EVERY DAY MY RUSSIAN FORCES TAKE YET ANOTHER VILLAGE.

SO WE HAVE TO CHANGE TACT.

IF THE UKRAINIANS ASK US, AND WE WILL SEE WHAT ZELENSKYY POSITION ON THIS WHEN TRUMP COMES TO POWER, IF THEY ASK FOR AID AT A HIGHER LEVEL, THEN WE MUST SUPPLY IT.

>> ONE LAST QUESTION ON UKRAINE, THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER TOLD ME IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT A COUPLE OF VILLAGES IN EASTERN UKRAINE.

IT'S ABOUT THE FUTURE OF UKRAINE AS A WEST LEANING DEMOCRATIC STATE OR BEING ABSORBED INTO RUSSIA.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IF RUSSIA DEMANDS NEUTRALITY FROM UKRAINE, NO SECURITY GUARANTEE , THAT THIS IS THE END OF A DEMOCRATIC UKRAINE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE?

THAT IT BECOMES PART OF THE RUSSIAN PROJECT?

SERIOUS RISK.

IF PUTIN ACTUALLY ABSORBS INTO RUSSIA THE PROVINCES WHICH HE IS OCCUPYING AT THE MOMENT, HE IS GOING TO SIMPLY WAIT FOR A NEW OPPORTUNITY.

ONE OR TWO OR FIVE OR 10 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

HIS OBJECTIVE IS TO CHALLENGE THE INDEPENDENCE OF UKRAINE, AND TO INSTALLING UKRAINE A PUPPET REGIME AS HE DID IN THE PAST.

SO WE HAVE TO GUARANTEE THE SECURITY OF UKRAINE.

NOT NECESSARILY BY NATO OR UKRAINE JOINING NATO.

BUT IT MUST BE GUARANTEED BY EUROPE.

>> ON GAZA, ON ISRAEL, THE LAST TIME WE SPOKE, YOU CALLED FOR AN URGENT CEASE-FIRE AND A RETURN OF THE HOSTAGES.

NONE OF THAT HAS HAPPENED AND THE DEATH TOLL IS MOUNTING I MEAN, GIGANTIC LEAP.

AGAIN, DONALD TRUMP HAS NOMINATED PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY HARD-LINE VIEWS ON, YOU KNOW, THE SITUATION THERE.

THEY ARE VERY PRO-ISRAEL, VERY PRO-SETTLER.

HIS NOMINEE FOR AMBASSADOR, FORMER GOVERNOR MIKE HUCKABEE IS AN EVANGELICAL WHO SAID THERE'S NO OCCUPATION, THERE'S NO PALESTINIAN.

DOES NOT EXIST.

AND THAT ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK AND THE SETTLEMENT AREAS, WHY NOT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW?

WHAT CAN THE WEST DO, THE U.S.

OUTGOING ADMINISTRATION?

>> Translator: FIRST OF ALL, WE IN THE WEST MUST TALK TO THE ARAB COUNTRIES BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MUST COME UP WITH A SOLUTION FOR PALESTINE AND FOR ISRAEL.

RECOGNIZING THAT ISRAEL ALSO NEEDS TO ACKNOWLEDGE A PALESTINIAN STATE.

OBVIOUSLY, THE POSITION IN SAUDI ARABIA IS DECISIVE HERE.

INFLUENCE TRUMP , BECAUSE THEY HAVE LINKS BETWEEN THEIR VARIOUS LEADERS.

CAN TO TRY TO CONVINCE HIM THAT THE MAJOR RISK WOULD BE A CONFLAGRATION THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE REGION.

TRUMP DOES NOT WANT THE WAR.

ALL OF HIS SPEECHES TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE ABOUT USING FORCE TO PREVENT WAR, BUT WE HAVE TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS TO HIM THAT IN THAT REGION, FORCE CAN ACTUALLY TRIGGER WAR.

WAR WITH IRAN.

SO WE HAVE TO GET HIM TO TELL THE ISRAELIS THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT, THEY MUST STOP THIS CONFLICT.

>> MIKE ROHN HAD CALLED FOR A WEAPONS EMBARGO ON ARMS TO BE USED TO ATTACK PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

THE UNITED STATES TODAY SMALL TALK ABOUT SUSPENDING CERTAIN WEAPONS.

RECONSIDER OUR MILITARY AID IF YOU DO NOT GET HUMANITARIAN AID INTO GAZA.

NO HUMANITARIAN AID OF ANY CONSEQUENCE IS GETTING IN AND THAT U.S.

DEADLINE HAS PASSED.

SHOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A SERIOUS ATTEMPT BY ALLIES OF ISRAEL TO WITHHOLD MILITARY SUPPORT FOR THIS WAR?

>> MOST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE NOT SUPPLYING ISRAEL WITH ANYMORE ARMS.

IT IS UP TO THE U.S. TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE THAT HUMANITARIAN AID, OVER AND ABOVE THE WEAPONS QUESTION IS ESSENTIAL, EVEN AN OBLIGATION ON THEIR PART.

TRUMP WOULD BE COMMITTING A VERY SERIOUS ERROR IF HE DID NOT LAY DOWN A CONDITION BEFORE HE TAKES POWER IN FEBRUARY.

AND THE HUMANITARIAN QUESTION COULD SPARK AN INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE, WHICH WOULD BOOMERANG ON ISRAEL, AND BE EXTREMELY HARMFUL CONSEQUENCES, SO IT'S ESSENTIAL THAT WE WOULD SAY HUMANITARIAN AID MUST GET THROUGH.

>> PRESIDENT HOLLANDE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.

>> TRUMP HAS PROMISED IT TO MAKE INCOME SORE AND MAKE THE COST OF LIVING, QUOTE, COME TUMBLING DOWN.

LIKE MANY ECONOMISTS, GLOBAL COLUMNIST ECONOMIST IS NOT CONVINCED.

THIS WILL LIKELY BRING AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN.

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPRACTICALITY'S OF THE TRUMP AGENDA.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE IN A RECENT COLUMN FOR AN OP-ED QUESTIONING WHETHER AMERICA HAS BECOME A DISTRESSED ASSET AND IF WE AS A COUNTRY ARE A VICTIM OF ITS OWN SUCCESS.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> THE SEAT WE ARE ABOUT TO GET TRUMP TOO.

ONE OF THE MANY THINGS YOU CAN SAY ABOUT TRUMP IS THAT HE IS ONE OF THE MOST TRANSACTIONAL PRESIDENTS, FINANCIAL ICE PRESIDENTS, SELF INTERESTED PRESIDENTS THAT WE HAVE EVER HAD AND WILL HAVE AGAIN.

TO ME, THAT DOVETAILS WITH SELF INTERESTED MARKETS AND SELF INTERESTED ECONOMIES.

FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS OR SO , WITH A COUPLE OF EXCEPTIONS, I WOULD BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AS ONE OF THE BIG EXCEPTIONS.

WE HAVE HAD ECONOMIC POLICY THAT HAS BEEN RUN I THINK IN A VERY SELFISH WAY.

IT HAS BEEN RUN ON THE CHICAGO SCHOOL OF SHAREHOLDER VALUE MODEL WHERE AS LONG AS SHARE PRICES ARE GOING UP AND CONSUMER PRICES ARE GOING DOWN, EVERYTHING IS FINE.

IF YOU HAVE TRUMP ABOUT TO INHERIT AN ECONOMY THAT WAS ACTUALLY DOING VERY, VERY WELL, BUT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, ONE BEING THE FELT EXPERIENCE OF THE INFLATIONARY BLIPS THAT WE SAW DURING COALBED, WHICH HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE HARD.

BUT ALSO AN IDEA THAT HE WAS ABLE TO PRESENT THAT TRICKLE- DOWN WORKS.

TAX CUTS WILL MAKE THE ECONOMY GROW EVEN FASTER.

WE ARE TAKING A STRONG ECONOMY, AN ECONOMY THAT WAS WORKING WELL.

YOU CAN LIKE BIDENOMICS OR NOT LIKE IT FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, BUT THE U.S. HAD THE BEST RECOVERY OF THE POST- COVID PERIOD.

SO IT WAS WORKING.

HE IS GOING TO INFLATE THE ECONOMY EVEN MORE BY USING DEBT AND DEFICIT TO BOLSTER ASSET PRICES, TO DEREGULATE MARKETS AT A TIME WHEN THAT IS THE LAST THING WE NEED TO BE DOING FOR THE SAFETY OF THE ECONOMY.

AND I'M VERY WORRIED THAT WE ARE GOING TO GET A BIG CORRECTION.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY THE U.S. AS A DISTRESSED ASSET.

MY FEELING IS IN SOME WAYS, WE ARE POLITICALLY BUYING AND AT THE TOP OF THE MARKET AND WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE A POTENTIAL DOWNTURN IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT THIS PRESIDENT MAY MAKE.

>> BEFORE WE GET INTO FURTHER DEBT AND DEFICIT, AN INDICATOR RIGHT NOW THAT PEOPLE SEE ON TV ON A NIGHTLY BASIS IS THE STOCK MARKET.

AND IN THE WAKE OF THE ELECTION RESULTS, WE HAVE SEEN A METEORIC RISE IN STOCKS AND CRYPTO CURRENCIES.

WHY SHOULD WE NOT LOOK AT THAT AS THE INDICATOR OF MORE STABILITY TO COME ?

IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS TRUE, WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS KIND OF A SUGAR HIGH.

>> 100%.

FIRST OF ALL, MARKETS HAVE VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE REAL ECONOMY.

IN FACT, OFTEN TIMES, SHARE PRICES FOR A SPECIFIC COMPANY WILL GO UP IF THEY STOP INVESTING IN THINGS LIKE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

IF THEY LAY PEOPLE OFF.

IF THEY CUT COSTS, IF THEY OFFSHORE JOBS.

PRICE GO UP BUT IT WILL NOT ENRICH THE COMMUNITY.

IT WILL NOT DEVELOP THE NEW THINGS FROM AN INNOVATION STANDPOINT.

IT WON'T CREATE JOBS OR INCOME GROWTH.

SO STOCK MARKETS AND THE REAL ECONOMY ARE OFTEN INVERSELY CORRELATED.

IN FACT OVER THE LAST 20 OR 30 YEARS AS MARKETS HAVE BECOME A MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT PART OF HOW WE DRIVE GROWTH, AND BY THAT I MEAN ASSET GROWTH, ASSET PRICE INFLATION OF STOCKS, ET CETERA.

YOU HAVE SEEN SLOWER AND MORE VOLATILE ECONOMIC GROWTH.

FINANCIAL INSTABILITY, FINANCIAL CRISES.

YOU CAN TAKE THIS AND SAY WHEN THE STOCK MARKET IS DOING BETTER, WHEN THE REAL ECONOMY IS DOING WORSE.

WHAT I WILL SAY IS THIS.

IF YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY, WE ARE AT A PERIOD IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE WE ARE ABOUT SIX YEARS OVERDUE FOR A SLOWDOWN, IF YOU DISCOUNT THE QUICK V SHAPED DOWNTURN AND RECOVERY OF COVID WHICH WAS KIND OF A ONE-OFF EVENT.

RECESSION AND RECOVERY CYCLES HAPPEN EVERY 10 YEARS.

IT'S BEEN OVER 16 SINCE THE LAST REAL ONE.

SO NO MATTER WHO'S IN OFFICE, WE ARE PROBABLY DUE FOR SOME KIND OF A SLOWDOWN.

YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT COMING IN, TRYING TO BOLSTER THE MARKET AND CREATE MORE DEBT AND DEFICIT GROWTH AT A TIME WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE THE POTENTIAL FOR A SLOWDOWN, THAT CREATES A RISK HE DYNAMIC.

THE TIMES WHEN YOU GET BIG STOCKMARKET CORRECTIONS, FINANCIAL CRISES AND SERIOUS DOWNTURNS.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE DEBT AND THE DEFICIT, THERE ARE CERTAIN POLICIES THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS PUT FORWARD.

ONE BEING A VERY FAMOUS ONE TARIFFS.

ESPECIALLY ON CHINA.

WHAT WOULD THE RIPPLE EFFECT BE IF THERE WAS A PRONOUNCEMENT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT WE WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT LARGE- SCALE TARIFFS ACROSS THE BOARD?

HE HAS SOLD IT TO HIS SUPPORTERS AND VOTERS IS THAT THIS WILL PENALIZE OTHER COUNTRIES, MAKE THINGS MORE EXPENSIVE FOR THEM.

>> IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO STEP BACK AND DEFINE THE WAY TRUMP THINKS ABOUT TARIFFS AND THE WAY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THOUGHT ABOUT THEM, THE WAY THAT THEY CAN BE THOUGHT ABOUT.

TRUMP IS USING A GILDED AGE APPROACH TO TARIFFS.

IT IS ABOUT PROTECTIONISM.

IT IS ABOUT DEFENSE, ABOUT PENALIZING OTHERS, USING THE CONSUMER MARKET IS KIND OF A BARGAINING CHIP.

WHICH I EXPECT HE WILL DO .

WE WILL HEAR A LOT ABOUT THAT.

IF THE COUNTRY IS NOT DOING WHAT HE WANTS, YOU MAY SEE TARIFFS PULLED OUT AS A THREAT.

THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT WAY OF THINKING ABOUT A TARIFF THAN SAY A ONE-OFF MEASURE TO CORRECT AGAINST ANTI- COMPETITIVE PRACTICES ON THE PART OF CHINA FOR DUMPING STEEL ELECTRIC VEHICLES INTO THE MARKET.

THAT'S A WAY OF PROTECTING U.S. WORKERS.

I THINK WHAT TRUMP IS GOING TO DO IS NOT WHAT HE SAYS HE IS GOING TO DO, WHICH IS PUT 60% TARIFFS ACROSS THE BOARD AND 20% ON OTHER ALLIES BECAUSE THAT WOULD PROBABLY CRASH THE STOCK MARKET AND WEAKEN THE DOLLAR.

I THINK WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO IS USE TARIFFS AS A BARGAINING TOOL IN A VERY POLITICAL WAY TO CREATE A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY IN THE MARKET AND TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE USED IN ANY BROAD- BASED WAY, BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY TO GO ALONG WITH IT, YOU WOULD PROBABLY SEE THAT AS AN INFLATIONARY TAX ON THE U.S. PEOPLE.

>> SPEAKING OF TAXES, WHAT IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS LIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL AT THIS POINT IF THEY HAVE CONTROL OF CONGRESS, CONTINUES TO ROLL BACK TAXES?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE BASIC BUDGET MATH OF THE COUNTRY?

>> IT IS KIND OF CLASSIC REPUBLICAN ECONOMICS, TRICKLE- DOWN ECONOMICS 101.

REAGAN IT DID THIS IN HIS SECOND TERM.

YOU ROLL BACK TAXES BUT YOU DON'T CUT SPENDING.

SO GUESS WHAT, THE DEBT AND DEFICIT GOES UP.

THE REASON SUCH A PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT, FOR STARTERS, POST- COVID, ALL COUNTRIES, RICH COUNTRIES IN PARTICULAR HAVE HAD RISING DEBT AND DEFICIT LEVELS.

THE U.S.

PARTICULARLY SO.

THIS IS COMING AT A TIME WHEN THERE HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT OF A PULLBACK FROM THE U.S. DOLLAR.

RUSSIA AND CHINA ARE BUILDING UP GOLD RESERVES.

THEY HAVE STARTED THEIR OWN FISCAL STIMULUS PROGRAM IS A WAY TO TRY TO REPATRIATE CAPITAL INTO ITS OWN COUNTRY.

THAT'S ALL ABOUT TRYING TO PULL AWAY FROM THE DOLLAR-BASED SYSTEM.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT'S GOING TO CHANGE ANYTIME SOON, BUT I'LL SAY THAT THE ONLY THING SAY, ZIMBABWE, RUNNING DEBT AND DEFICIT HIGHER WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF HOW IT'S GOING TO GET PAID OFF AND HAVE THAT NOT SPIRAL INTO A PANIC IS THE FACT THAT THE DOLLAR IS THE GLOBAL RESERVE CURRENCY.

IF THAT BEGINS TO CHANGE AND YOU GET MUCH HIGHER DEBT AND DEFICIT LEVELS, YOU COULD SEE BORROWERS, AS THEY HAVE, BY THE WAY, IN EVERY TREASURY ISSUANCE, FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, STARTING TO TIPTOE AWAY FROM U.S. ASSETS.

THAT COULD RAISE BORROWING COSTS.

THAT BEGINS TO HIT NOT ONLY TRUST IN THE U.S. AS A POLITICAL ECONOMY BUT IT HURTS THE WALLETS OF AVERAGE PEOPLE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE UNDERLYING BASICS OF THE U.S. ECONOMY.

RIGHT NOW IF WE WERE TO THINK ABOUT THE STOCK MARKET.

IT'S A CLASS OF ASSETS THAT IS NOT EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED.

THE BULK OF STOCKS IN AMERICA OR REAL ESTATE IN AMERICA IS OWNED BY AN INCREDIBLY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE.

WHAT IS THE POLICY OF THE TRUMP OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY HAVE MADE, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE AVERAGE WORKING- CLASS PERSON THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE STOCK MARKET, VERSUS SOME BILLIONAIRE FRIENDS WHO HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN HIS CAMPAIGN?

>> I MEAN, I THINK YOU POINTED OUT A VERY ASTUTE THING.

ABOUT 85% OF ALL THE ASSET WEALTH IN THE STOCK MARKET IS OWNED BY ROUGHLY 10 TO 12 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.

SO FOR THOSE PEOPLE, ASSET PRICE INFLATION IS GREAT SAYING I WILL CUT CORPORATE TAXES, GET RID OF ANTITRUST POLICY, THERE WILL BE A MERGERS BOOM.

IT WILL CREATE A SHORT-TERM SUGAR HIGH.

MORE STOCK GAINS.

THAT'S GOOD IF YOU OWN A LOT OF ASSETS.

BUT IF YOU'RE LIKE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN AND YOU GET MOST OF YOUR MONEY IN A PAYCHECK, IT MAY NOT NECESSARILY MEAN GOOD THINGS FOR YOU.

WHAT HAPPENS DURING BOOMS?

LAYOFFS.

THEY DON'T NEED THAT OFFICE ANYMORE.

JOBS GO AWAY.

THIS IS A TIME WHEN A.I.

IS STARTING TO MOVE FURTHER UP THE FOOD CHAIN.

WE HAVE TECH TITANS LIKE ELON MUSK POTENTIALLY COMING IN AND RIGHTSIZING THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH WILL MEAN MORE CUTS.

SO THIS AGAIN CREATES THE DICHOTOMY BETWEEN THE ASSET OWNING CLASS AND THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY MAKE THEIR MONEY IN A PAYCHECK.

I'LL ALSO SAY THAT SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT TRUMP HAS PROPOSED, LIKE NO TAX ON TIPS, ARE INCREDIBLY CYNICAL, BECAUSE ONLY THE LOWER 5% OF THE SOCIOECONOMIC LADDER EVEN MAKES MONEY IN TIPS.

MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE MAKE SO LITTLE MONEY THEY ARE NOT PAYING TAXES ALREADY.

IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE ON THE FEDERAL BALANCE SHEET.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS DECENT JOBS.

WE NEED A GUARANTEED MINIMUM WAGE.

WE NEED THINGS THAT ACTUALLY CREATE REAL SECURITY.

NOT KIND OF A FAUX MARKETING SLOGAN OF SECURITY.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT ANIMATED VOTERS SO MUCH IN AMERICA TO THE POLLS WAS IMMIGRATION.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP TOLD PEOPLE HE WANTS TO IMPLEMENT IS MASS DEPORTATIONS.

WHAT ARE THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES?

RIGHT NOW HE HAS STACKED HIS SUGGESTED HEADS FOR HOMELAND SECURITY, BORDER CZAR, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

THEY ARE ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE FOCUSED ON IMMIGRATION AS THEIR TOPIC.

IF HE'S ABLE TO ROLL OUT EVEN A FRACTION OF THE INTENDED PLAN, WHAT ARE THE ECONOMIC RIPPLES THAT WE WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH HERE?

>> LET ME GIVE YOU THE COUNTERFACTUAL FIRST, WHICH IS THE FACT THAT THERE WAS HIGHER LEVELS OF IMMIGRATION DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, LEGAL AND ILLEGAL, FRANKLY, ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED TO A LESSENING OF LABOR MARKET INFLATION.

SO WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH HIGHER INFLATION AT SOME OF THE LEVELS THAT YOU SAW IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE WAS LAST IN THE U.S. BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS TALENT POOL.

THAT IS HISTORICALLY TRUE FOR THE U.S. BECAUSE WE HAVE HIGHER LEVELS OF IMMIGRATION.

WE HAVE A TRENDING GDP RATE OF ABOUT 3% VERSUS ROUGHLY 2% IN EUROPE.

A LOT OF ECONOMISTS SAY IT'S DOWN TO THE LABOR MARKET OF IMMIGRATION AND MOBILITY.

IF YOU KNOCK THOSE FOLKS OUT REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY COME FROM, YOU ARE CREATING MORE TIGHTNESS IN THE LABOR MARKET.

THAT IS POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE INFLATIONARY.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT SOME OF THESE A SWING STATE VOTERS THAT HAVE CERTAINLY TAKEN THAT A HIGHER, VOTED FOR TRUMP THINKING HE IS GOING TO LOWER IT, THEY MAY END UP SEEING THAT HE RAISES IT.

>> WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING IN WILL HAVE SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC INFLUENCE OVER THE ADMINISTRATION, WHETHER IT'S THE NEW TREASURY SECRETARY, ECONOMIC ADVISORS?

ONE OF PROJECT 2025 DID FROM THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION WAS A START GIVING LISTS OF PEOPLE THAT THE PRESIDENT COULD CALL ON.

BUT FOR EVERYBODY ELSE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE LISTS AND SEE WHAT WAS COMING.

>> LET ME JUST SAY THERE'S KIND OF TWO BLOCKS.

THERE IS WALL STREET AND KIND OF HARD-CORE MAGA.

I THINK THOSE TWO GROUPS ARE GOING TO BE VERY MUCH IN COLLISION ABOUT POLICY DECISIONS.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE FOLKS THAT WOULD LIKE BROAD-BASED TARIFFS, AMERICA FIRST, A MUCH MORE PROTECTIONIST VIEW TO THE ECONOMY , THAT REQUIRES A WEAKER DOLLAR.

IT PROBABLY REQUIRES A LOWER STOCK MARKET.

THAT'S ANTI-PEDICLE TO THE WALL STREET CROWD, TO THE HEDGE FUNDERS, TO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THIS AMERICAN OLIGARCHIC GROUP.

I COULD GO ON.

IMMIGRATION AGAIN, MAYBE THE MAGA FOLKS LOVE IT, BUT WALL STREET DOES NOT LOVE IT BECAUSE IT GETS INTO DOES POWELL RAISE INTEREST RATES OR ADD TO INTEREST RATES?

WHAT IS TRUMP GOING TO SAY?

THAT WILL GET POLITICIZED.

IT'S ALSO BAD FOR MARKETS.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT GLOBAL INVESTORS WANT TO SEE LESS THAN A FIGHT BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND A CENTRAL BANK.

THAT'S A CLASSIC EMERGING- MARKET CRISIS SCENARIO.

>> FINALLY I WANT TO ASK YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE LOOK AT THE COUNTRY'S FINANCES AND TRY TO DRAW PARALLELS TO THEIR OWN FOR RIGHT AND FOUR WRONG AND THEY SAY HERE IS HOW I AM TRYING TO BALANCE MY CHECKBOOK AT HOME.

WHERE'S THE CHECKBOOK IN THE UNITED STATES?

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN DECREASING DEFICITS AND SO FORTH.

BUT AS LEVERAGED AS THE UNITED STATES IS AND FINANCIAL LAST AS POLITICS HAS BECOME, WHAT ARE SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF ANY KIND OF EXILE GENESEE EVENT THAT MIGHT KIND OF CREATE A IN U.S. STOCKS?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO OUR ABILITY TO PAY FOR SERVICES OR HOW GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS ?

>> GREAT, GREAT QUESTION.

WHAT I CAN SAY IS EVEN BEFORE TRUMP WAS ELECTED, BRINGING IN A BUDGETARY PLAN THAT INDEPENDENT EXPERTS WOULD SAY IS MUCH MORE INFLATIONARY THAN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR.

THERE WAS A SENSE THAT IF WE GOT A BIG CORRECTION IN THE STOCK MARKET, SAY 20%, THAT THAT COMBINED WITH THE LEVEL OF U.S. THAT COULD BRING ON A CURRENCY CRISIS, BUDGETARY CRISIS, BASICALLY, YOU WOULD HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD BE UNABLE TO PAY BACK CREDITORS WITHOUT FLASHING ENTITLEMENTS OR MILITARY SPENDING.

THOSE TWO THINGS ARE GOING TO BE VERY POLITICALLY UNPALATABLE.

DOES THAT CREATE A KIND OF EMERGING-MARKET STYLE CRISIS IN THE U.S.?

THIS GETS INTO IS THE USA DISTRESSED ASSET?

IS THE U.S. ITSELF ACTING LIKE AN EMERGING MARKET?

I THINK SOME OF THESE LEVELS OF RISK SAY YES, WE ARE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOUR WALLET?

FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON?

THINK ABOUT YOUR 401(K).

IMAGINE IF A CERTAIN EXPERTS WOULD SAY, THE MARKET IS CURRENTLY BETWEEN 20 AND 40% OVERVALUED.

THINK ABOUT IF THAT QUESTION HAPPENED.

THAT'S A LOT LESS MONEY IN YOUR RETIREMENT.

IT'S ALSO IMMEDIATELY AN INTERNATIONAL CREDIT EVENT THAT WOULD RAISE RATES, WITH EVERYTHING FROM HOMES TO CARS, ANYTHING MORE EXPENSIVE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FINALLY, SOME RARE GOOD NEWS IN A SEA OF BAD.

THE WORLD'S LARGEST CORAL HAS BEEN SPOTTED DEEP IN THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC OCEAN.

OVER 100 FEET LONG, IT'S EVEN VISIBLE FROM SPACE.

AS YOU CAN SEE, THE MEGA CORAL IS TEEMING WITH LIFE.

IT'S BEEN DOING THAT FOR OVER THREE CENTURIES.

THE DISCOVERY WAS MADE DURING A NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC PRISTINE SUBMISSION IN OCTOBER WITH SCIENTISTS CALLING AT THE ULTIMATE DREAM OF THEIR CAREERS.

ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT IMMUNE TO THE EFFECTS OF GLOBAL WARMING, IT'S A SURVIVAL OFFERS A GLIMMER OF HOPE THAT ALL IS NOT LOST AT LEAST IN THIS CASE.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FOR NOW.