>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY, HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> CONGRATULATIONS, WE LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING, LIKE WE SAID, A SMOOTH TRANSITION.

>> KEEPING WITH TRENT TRADITION, BIDEN WELCOMES TOM TO THE WHITE HOUSE AMIDST SOME UNORTHODOX CABINET PICS.

I SPEAK TO FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL AND TRUMPET BACKER , COLBY.

>> I JUST WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY, YOU HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLE, WE WORKED WITH A LOT OF YOU TO GET ME AND PRETTY YOU HELP TO ME AND YOU HELPED ME, TOO.

>> WITH REPUBLICANS CONTROLLING MUCH OF CONGRESS, WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR THE WORLD?

>>> PLUS : >> A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE HEARING ARE EITHER NOT TRUE WHERE THEY ARE HEAVILY DISTORTED POINT >> WHEN TECH, MEDIA, MONEY, AND POLITICS COLLIDE.

OUR INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT IS DANGEROUSLY POLLUTED.

>> [ MUSIC ] >>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD, LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO HELP ANTI- SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF A LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK , THE FILAMENT FOUNDATION, MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JONAH COONEY FONDA, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR AND LONDON.

AN IMAGE FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS, DONALD TRUMP BACK AT THE WHITE HOUSE, MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR A HAND OVER THAT TRUMP DENIED HIM JUST FOUR YEARS AGO.

THE PRESIDENT-ELECT ALSO IS ON CAPITOL HILL THIS DAY TO HUDDLE WITH REPUBLICAN ALLIES WHO ALL BUT CONTROL CONGRESS NOW, FOUR YEARS AFTER THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION BY TRUMP ALLIES.

TRUMP IS ALSO FILLING OUT HIS NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM, INCLUDING THE SHOCK PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY, FOX NEWS WEEKEND HOST AND ARMY NATIONAL GUARD PETER.

REACTED TO POLITICO BY SAYING WHO THE F IS THIS GUY?

TRUMP LOYALIST AND CONGRESSMAN JOHN RATCLIFF WHO HELPED PURSUE INVESTIGATIONS INTO HUNTER DIRECTOR.

COLBY IS SERVED IN THE PENTAGON A DRINK TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AND HAS PRAISED HIS CABINET SELECTIONS.

ELDRIDGE COLBY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM AND WELL, FROM WASHINGTON.

LOOK, CAN WE FIRST ASK YOU --I MEAN, I KNOW YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GO OFF ON TRUMP'S PICS, BUT WHO THE HECK IS THIS GUY AS THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY IS ASKING?

WHAT QUALIFIES HIM FOR THIS ROLE?

>> WELL, GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE .

THREE POINTS, AN ANONYMOUS INDUSTRY LOBBYISTS MAKING COMMENTS IN POLITICO IS PROBABLY PRAISED FOR SPEAKER NOMINEE , SO A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ATTACKING HIM INCLUDE FOR INSTANCE VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY'S KEY ADVISER, THAT WAS IN THE SAME ARTICLE.

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY AND LIZ CHENEY ENDORSED VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IN THE ELECTION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS RECEIVED A DECISIVE ELECTORAL MANDATE.

SECOND OF ALL, PETE IS A DECORATED COMBAT VETERAN, HE WENT TO PRINCETON, TO HARVARD, UNITED STATES, AND AS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS POINTED OUT, HE IS VERY ALIGNED WITH THE AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DECISIVELY BEEN ELECTED ON.

TO HIS CREDIT, AND THE OTHER THING I WOULD JUST STRESS HERE, CHRISTIANE , THIS IS NOT LIKE 2016, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS A CHANGE AGENT, HE IS VERY MUCH A CHANGE AGENT, HE HAS RECEIVED A DECISIVE ELECTORAL MANDATE, AND NOW HE IS TAKING PEOPLE WHO HE THINKS ARE GOING TO IMPLEMENT HIS VISION, AND I THINK THAT IS THE KEY THING TO BEAR IN MIND HERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISION OF AMERICA FIRST HAS RECEIVED THAT MANDATE, IT IS BEST FOR AMERICANS, BUT ALSO FOR OUR ALLIES AROUND THE WORLD AND FOR THE CAUSE OF PEACE.

NEXT I DO WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE PERSON JOHN HEGSETH, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, HE HAS SAID THAT WOMEN HAVE NO PLACE IN COMBAT ROLES.

PETE, I AM SORRY, HE IS AMONG TRUMP'S HIGH PROFILE SUPPORTERS.

IN TERMS OF ROLLING BACK INITIATIVES DESIGNED DIVERSITY, HE HAS SAID ANY GENERAL, ANY ADMIRAL, WHATEVER, WHO IS INVOLVED IN D.E.I., DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION PROGRAMS, OR WOKE EXPLETIVE, HAS GOT TO GO, HE SAID.

AND YET, THE PENTAGON IS ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA THAT WORKED BRILLIANTLY ON ITS INCLUSION AND DIVERSITY POLICIES.

IS THIS REALLY GOING TO BE RIPPED APART?

>> WELL, THE PENTAGON WAS IMMENSELY SUCCESSFUL AS ONE OF THE FIRST PLACES TO INTEGRATE IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

GENERAL COLIN POWELL BECAME JOINT CHAIRMAN OF THE CHIEFS OF STAFF DURING THE FIRST PRESIDENT BUSH, BECAUSE IT WAS A MERIT-BASED ORGANIZATION.

AND BY THE WAY, THAT'S WHEN OUR PENTAGON WAS WINNING AWARDS.

I THOROUGHLY SUPPORT AND I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE SENT THEIR SUPPORT FOR ROLLING BACK POLITICALLY CORRECT, KIND OF WOKE D.E.I.

FOCUS, AS OPPOSED TO A FOCUS ON MERIT.

WHATEVER YOUR RACE OR CREED, THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY, AND THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING BACK TO BED A LOT OF DEMOCRATS ALONG THE WAY , WHO I WAS ON YOUR SHOW WITH A COUPLE MONTHS AGO, HE SAID THE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN TOO FOCUSED ON A LOT OF THIS D.E.I.

WOKE STUFF , SO WE WANT OUR MILITARY TO BE LETHAL AND EFFECTIVE AND MERIT-BASED, THAT IS THE BEST OF THE AMERICAN WAY, AND THAT'S WHAT PETE HEGSETH IS CALLING FOR.

MORE PORTLY, THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS CALLED FOR AND HE HAS BEEN ELECTED ON PROJECTS I UNDERSTAND EVERYBODY WANTS MERIT, BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY THE PEOPLE IN THE PENTAGON NOW ARE THERE BECAUSE OF SOME WOKE EXPLETIVE, SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, PETE HEGSETH HAS ALSO SUGGESTED, I THINK, THEY WILL TELL ME IN MY EAR IF I AM WRONG, THAT THE CURRENT CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, THE HIGHLY DISTINGUISHED AIR FORCE GENERAL CQ BROWN IS AT RISK, AND POSSIBLY SHOULDN'T BE WHERE HE IS.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> WELL, I MEAN, LOOK, I CAN'T SPEAK -- >> SHOULD IT?

I MEAN, HE IS A REALLY DECORATED COMBAT VETERAN WITH >> YEAH, I MEAN, I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT ON SPECIFIC CASES.

WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY IS THAT OUR PENTAGON AND A LOT OF OUR GENERAL AND FLAG OFFICERS HAVE GOTTEN THEMSELVES WAY INTO INAPPROPRIATE POLITICS OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

AFTER A 25 YEAR SPAN IN WHICH OUR FOREIGN POLICY AND DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT HAS FAILED UTTERLY TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

WHAT I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING IS NOT EJECTING THE POSTWAR APPROACH TO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY, HE IS REJECTING THE POST-COLD WAR HUBRIS OF THE LAST KIND OF 30 YEARS, AND A LOT OF THAT GOES TO THE CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP, OUR GENERALS HAVE NOT DONE A GREAT JOB, AND A LOT OF THEM ARE OUT CALLING FASCISTS OR THE END OF DEMOCRACY OR WHATEVER, WE NEED TO GET OUR GENERAL FLAG OFFICERS BACK TO THE FOCUS ON WINNING AWARDS, AND WHEREVER POSSIBLE, AVOIDING WARS, BY UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS THAT WE CAN AND CAN'T DO AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SUPPORT.

SO, HERE IS SOMETHING, AND I KNOW THIS FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, OUR MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT AND ITS ASSOCIATED SORT OF APPARATUS HAS GOTTEN REALLY BIG, AND EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, YOU KNOW, AS I ALWAYS LIKE TO POINT OUT THE FOUNDING FATHERS BUG AND THE TOUGH POLITICS WAS A FEATURE.

WE HAVE A TANNING ARMY FOR A GOOD REASON.

YOU MENTIONED JOHN RATCLIFF, A GREAT PICK TO THE CIA.

BRING SOME ACCOUNTABILITY BACKWARD EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, THERE NEEDS TO BE A DEMOCRATIC FOCUS ON ACCOUNTABILITY AND GETTING BACK TO THE BASICS, AND I THINK MANY IN OUR MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT, NOT ALL, THERE ARE GREAT PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY, PETE HEGSETH IS AN EXAMPLE OF A DECORATED COMBAT VETERAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE UPPER RANKS WHO ARE READY TO DO THIS KIND OF THING.

IN MY VIEW, AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I THINK, IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID, THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD BE ELEVATED.

>> LOOK, YOU TALKED ABOUT SOME GENERALS WHO HAD SAID THINGS ABOUT TRUMP.

THOSE WEREN'T D.E.I., THOSE WERE WHITE GENERALS, AND THEY WERE ACTUALLY FORMER GENERALS, THEY ARE NO LONGER SERVING, SO THAT IS ONE THING.

THE OTHER THING IS, DEFINITELY PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID --AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE SEEING THAT THE SLOGAN PERSONNEL IS POLICY, BUT IT IS ALSO THE MANDATE, HE CLAIMS, IS TO TURN AMERICA INTO HIS IMAGE AND INTO HIS AGENDA, YOU KNOW, PURSUING HIS AGENDA.

SO, ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH -- I WANT TO SAY BLIND LOYALTY, BEING THE CALLING CARD OR THE LITMUS TEST FOR SOME OF THE APPOINTEES?

AND I'M GOING TO STAY ON HEGSETH, BECAUSE AGAIN, THE LEADER OF ONE VETERAN'S GROUP SAID HE IS ACTUALLY THE LEAST QUALIFIED NOMINEE FOR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, AND THE MOST OVERTLY POLITICAL, AND AGAIN, I AM ASKING YOU THIS BECAUSE THE PENTAGON, OF ALL PLACES, SHOULD BE APOLITICAL.

>> LET'S GET A FEW THINGS STRAIGHT.

FIRST OF ALL, I DIDN'T SUGGEST THE CRITICS OF TRUMP WERE ALL D.E.I.

AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POLICY, NOT INDIVIDUALS.

RETIRED GENERAL OFFICERS ACTUALLY REMAIN UNDER CERTAIN RESTRICTIONS AND THEY HAVE A SPECIAL TRUST INVESTED IN THEM BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AS DO SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS, BECAUSE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY APOLITICAL NATURE, BUT EXTRAORDINARILY POWERFUL ASPECTS OF THEIR ROLE, THEY HAVE A SPECIAL TRUST THAT THEY NEED NOT ABUSE, AND I BELIEVE THAT HAS BEEN ABUSED BY A NUMBER OF SENIOR RETIRED OFFICERS, I HAVE TO GET INTO THAT.

I THINK THIS IS A RED HERRING, CHRISTIANE .

THEY ALL EXPECTED LOYALTY, IN FACT, THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART.

THE GENERAL OFFICERS DON'T GO THROUGH POLITICAL VETTING.

CLINICAL APPOINTEES, YOU CAN BE SURE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, IN THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION, THERE ARE EXPECTATIONS OF LOYALTY.

WHY?

IT IS NOT SOME FETISH.

IT IS TO MAKE SURE YOU ADDRESS THE PRINCIPAL PROBLEM AND YOU ACTUALLY GET DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY.

MY VIEW, AND I MEAN THIS TOTALLY SINCERELY, I WANT --I VERY MUCH HOPE, WHATEVER HAPPENS TO ME, I VERY MUCH HOPE PRESIDENT TRUMP APPOINTS PEOPLE WHO WILL IMPLEMENT HIS AGENDA.

I DON'T THINK IT IS CORRECT TO SAY HE IS TRYING TO MAKE AMERICA INTO HIS IMAGE, HE HAS LAID OUT A POLICY VISION FOR PUTTING AMERICANS FIRST, RESTORING AMERICAN ENERGY, YOU KNOW, DEREGULATION, THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, ALL THESE KINDS OF THINGS, A COMMON SENSE APPROACH TO GOVERNANCE, AND HE IS PICKING PEOPLE WHO HE BELIEVES WILL IMPLEMENT THAT.

SOME OF THEM HAVE DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND SO FORTH, BUT THIS LOYALTY THING, OF COURSE THEY ARE EXPECTED TO BE LOYAL, RIGHT?

>> EVEN HIS OWN TEAM SAID THAT FROM THE BEGINNING BUT YOU SAID IT WAS A RED HERRING.

THE LOYALTY WAS PUBLISHED AND PUBLICIZED AS A VERY, VERY MAJOR ISSUE.

ANYWAY, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER.

FIRST, ON THE BIG ISSUES, LET'S JUST TAKE SOME OF THEM, AND OBVIOUSLY UKRAINE.

EUROPE, RUSSIA, UKRAINE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN?

WHERE DO YOU BELIEVE, AND ESPECIALLY LOOKING AT THE APPOINTEES, MANY OF WHOM HAVE TURNED INTO UKRAINE AID SKEPTIC, AND SOME OF THEM, INCLUDING PRESIDENT TRUMP, HAVE SAID THAT HE WANTS A NEGOTIATION, HE CAN FIX IT IN A SORT OF 24 HOUR PERIOD.

WHAT SHOULD THE UNITED STATES , FOR ITS OWN SECURITY, AND YOU KNOW, AND ITS DEFENSE OF ITS IDEALS, BE DOING NEXT TO END THIS WAR?

>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK CLEARLY THAT THE WAR SHOULD END, AND I SUPPORT THAT, I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD HOPE FOR THE WAR TO END, AND I THINK THAT IS PRETTY MUCH MOVING INTO CONSENT.

>> YEAH, BUT HOW?

>> RIGHT, HOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT SPECIFIED HOW HE IS GOING TO DO THAT.

THAT IS A GOOD, SMART NEGOTIATING POSITION.

EISENHOWER DIDN'T DO THAT, NIXON DIDN'T DO THAT, REAGAN DIDN'T DO THAT.

I VERY MUCH HOPE HE IS SUCCESSFUL.

YOU HAVE SEEN SIGNALS FROM BOTH MOSCOW AND KYIV THAT THEY ARE OPEN TO FOREIGN NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT EXACTLY THAT LOOKS LIKE, I DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW.

THERE WAS REPORTING TODAY, I CAN'T CONFIRM IT, THERE MIGHT BE AN APPOINTMENT OF UKRAINE SPECIAL ENVOY.

WE WILL SEE HOW THAT GOES, BUT I THINK THAT IS A CLEAR POLICY PLAN.

YOU ARE IN EUROPE, THE MESSAGE HAS BEEN CLEAR, I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, THE EUROPEANS NEED TO STEP UP.

FIRST OF ALL, THEY NEED TO TAKE MORE RELIANCE FOR THEIR INSECURITY, THAT IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF FAIRNESS, THAT IS A STRUCTURAL MILITARY REALITY GIVEN THE THREAT UNITED STATES BASES AND THE CONSTRAINTS UNDER MILITARY FORCES.

TO EUROPEAN OFFICIALS ALL THE TIME, THERE GETTING THE MESSAGE, I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS AN AREA WHERE A TRUMPET THREE IS REALLY GOOD NEWS FOR EUROPE BECAUSE IT IS FINALLY GOING TO PUT YOU UP TO DO WHAT IT NEEDS.

APPARENTLY IN GERMANY, POLAND I WAS SEEN YESTERDAY, OF GERMANS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AGREE WITH THE SOCIAL DEMOCRAT MINISTER OF DEFENSE WHO SAYS GERMANY SHOULD BE SPENDING 3.5% -- >> YES, THAT IS AN ARGUMENT -- BUT LET ME FINISH HERE, CHRISTIANE .

TRENT >> IN THE MEANTIME, IT IS HAPPENING, AND YOU SAID IT IS TOO SLOW, YES, ONE CAN ARGUE OVER THAT, BUT THE QUESTION IS THERE IS A REAL, RAGING WAR, AND IT REALLY MATTERS HOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD, WITH THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY AND ECONOMY, WHAT MESSAGE HE SENDS AS TO HOW THIS WAR WILL END.

>> HE IS SENDING THE RIGHT MESSAGE THAT THE EUROPEANS NEED TO STEP UP AND DO THEIR PART, WHICH IS THE MESSAGE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENDING AND WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE IN UKRAINE'S INTEREST RATE >> WHAT IS IT THEN?

WHAT IS IT?

TO KEEP SENDING WEAPONS?

>> IN ANY CASE, UKRAINE IS GOING TO NEED TO BE BACKED AND SUPPORTED, RIGHT?

I ALWAYS POINT THIS OUT, I WAS TALKING WITH A BUNCH OF GERMAN PARLIAMENTARIANS A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND THEY WERE SAYING WHY CAN'T YOU DO MORE?

>> I SAID WHY DON'T YOU START IN A MORE COMMONSENSE WAY, BY SPENDING -- >> EVEN AMERICA DOESN'T SPEND 3.5, ELBRIDGE COLBY.

IT IS AROUND THREE.

IN ANY EVENT -- >> WHATEVER, IF THEY SPEND AS MUCH AS WE DO, THAT WOULD BE A GREAT START.

AND THEY ARE VERY RICH COUNTRIES, DENMARK, NORWAY, SWEDEN, AND VERY VOCAL, BUT SPENDING QUITE LITTLE.

IT IS AN OBVIOUS SOLUTION.

AND ACTUALLY, THIS IS WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS REALLY HELPING THE EUROPEANS, BY INJECTING.

WHAT IS CLEAR, HONESTLY, IS THAT EUROPEANS IN THE MILITARY, YOU KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, MESSAGE OF URGENCY AND PRESSURE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SENDING.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT CHINA.

I SPOKE TO A SENIOR CHINA- TAIWAN HAND, HE WAS IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HERE IS WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT HOW XI JINPING VIEWS THE UNITED STATES.

>> IT IS IS THE DECISIVE DECADE IN THE COMPETITION WITH CHINA.

IN MANY WAYS, IF UNITED STATES DOESN'T TAKE SORT OF URGENT ACTION, IT COULD FALL BEHIND CHINA TECHNOLOGICALLY, IT COULD BECOME DEPENDENT ON CHINA ECONOMICALLY, IT MIGHT EVEN BE DEFEATED BY CHINA MILITARILY IN THE SOUTH CHINA STREET OR TENNESSEE, SO THIS DECADE REALLY COUNTS.

>> THAT IS THE ANALYSIS.

WHAT XI JINPING HAS SAID IS HE BELIEVES BY 2030, CHINA WILL OVERTAKE THE UNITED STATES AS A SUPERPOWER.

HE BELIEVES THE UNITED STATES IS IN DECLINE.

SO, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO COUNTER THAT SEEKING DOMINANCE?

YOU KNOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND BEFORE THAT, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS A LOT OF ALLIANCES.

THE CHIPS ACT, ALL THESE THINGS TO TRY TO MANAGE PROPERLY AND SECURELY A COMPETITION.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL CHANGE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE PRESIDENT, BUT I WILL SAY HE IS A VERY SMART GUY, BUT I THINK THAT IS A VERY BLISTERING INDICTMENT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY, BECAUSE IF THIS IS A DECISIVE DECADE AND THERE IS A POTENTIAL THAT WE LOSE A WAR IN THE WESTERN PACIFIC, THEN WHY HAS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BEEN SQUANDERING OUR MILITARY POWER IN EUROPE AND THE MIDDLE EAST ON LESSER THREATS AND NOT INCREASING DEFENSE SPENDING OR INJECTING THE KIND OF URGENCY INTO OUR DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL BASE REVITALIZATION THAT THEY PUT INTO GREEN INITIATIVES?

SO, MY VIEW AT LEAST IS WE WANT PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH.

[ INAUDIBLE ] VICE PRESIDENT VANCE AS BEEN VERY ARTICULATE, WE NEED TO HUSBAND OUR MILITARY POWER TO DETER CHINESE ATTACK, WHILE ALSO KEEPING OPEN OPTIONS FOR NEGOTIATION WITH XI JINPING.

I THINK THIS IS WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF LACK IRONICALLY FROM THE LEFT, FOR TO TALK TO XI JINPING AND OTHERS LIKE KIM JONG-UN, BUT THAT IS GOOD, THERE IS AN OPENING TO CHINA.

WE ARE ALREADY SEEING PROGRESS.

THE FINANCIAL TIMES HAS REPORTED THAT TIME ONE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID WHY AREN'T THEY SPENDING MORE?

THE FINANCIAL TIMES IS REPORTING THAT TAIWAN IS NOW LOOKING TO DO A MAJOR INCREASE IN DEFENSE SPENDING.

THAT IS GREAT, BUT THAT IS A HUGE INDICTMENT OF THE LAST FEW YEARS.

HERE IS A KEY THING, I REALLY WANT TO STRESS.

THE BIDEN-HARRISON MINISTRATION HAS LED TO THE WORLD IN A TERRIBLE PLACE, LEFT THE AMERICAN MILITARY AND OUR POLITICAL POSITION OUT OF POSTURE, OUT OF POSITION, AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CUT SOME SLACK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION TO PUT US IN A GOOD WAY.

BEAR IN MIND, A BIDEN ADMINISTRATION APPOINTEE, HE HAS NOT ONLY RECONFIRMED BLINKEN AND BURNS A STATEMENT THAT CHINA IS PREPARING FOR WAR OVER TAIWAN BY 2027, BUT HE SAY IT IS READY BY 2027, THAT IS IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL TERM.

IN MY VIEW, IF WE WANT TO ACHIEVE PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISION, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FOCUS ON THAT A LOT.

IT'S PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALSO SORT OF SAD THAT TAIWAN HAS TO PAY MORE IF IT WANTS THE TYPICAL TRANSACTIONAL THING, WHAT YOU JUST SAID, DOES THAT CAST DOUBT TO THE CHINESE ON THE SO-CALLED STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY ABOUT WHAT THE U.S. WILL BE PREPARED TO DO TO DEFEND THE DEMOCRATIC ALLY?

>> WELL, STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY, CHRISTIANE , IS OUR TRADITIONAL POLICY, SO IT IS PRESIDENT BIDEN WHO DEPARTED FROM OUR TRADITIONAL POLICY OF AMBIGUITY ON THAT ISSUE, AND THEN HAD TO WALK BACK.

SO, I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POSITION IS CONSISTENT WITH OUR TRADITIONAL POLICY, WHICH IS THE ADVISEMENT OF DECLARATORY POLICY AT THIS POINT.

BUT TAIWAN HAS REALLY GOT TO UNDERSTAND, THIS IS A POINT I HAVE BEEN MAKING THAT I BELIEVE IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN ARGUING, THEY NEED TO BUILD UP THEIR DEFENSE, NOT ONLY AS A MATTER OF FAIRNESS, AS THE CHINESE MILITARY IS VERY FORMIDABLE, WE HAVE JUST SEEN REPORTING OF THE NEW STEALTH JET FIGHTER FOR INSTANCE, THEY HAVE GOT TO DO THEIR PART.

WHAT IS ALMOST MIND-BOGGLING IS SPENDING LESS AS A FRACTION OF THEIR GDP ON DEFENSE THAN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE, AND THAT IS A DANGEROUS PLACE TO BE.

SO AGAIN, IF PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE MEMO, HEY, I NEED TO DO MY PART AND I'M NOT JUST GOING TO TAKE THESE BLASE ASSURANCES FROM THE BIDEN TEAM IS TAKING TO THE BANK, I THINK THAT IS, AGAIN, BETTER FOR NOT ONLY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE BETTER FOR OUR ALLIES, BETTER FOR TAIWAN.

>> AND ANOTHER QUESTION ON ANOTHER REGION WHICH IS RAGING RIGHT NOW, OBVIOUSLY ISRAEL, GAZA.

SO, AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP HAS NOMINATED MIKE HUCKABEE, THE FORMER GOVERNOR, AS AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL.

MIKE HUCKABEE HAS SAID A NUMBER OF THINGS OVER THE YEARS, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, HE IS A VERY STRONG SUPPORTER, BUT HE HAS ALSO GOT A WHOLE RELIGIOUS EVANGELICAL FEEL ABOUT IT.

HE HAS TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS A PRETTY MAXIMALIST VIEW.

HE SAID THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OCCUPATION, NO SUCH THING AS SETTLEMENTS, THEIR COMMUNITIES, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PALESTINIAN, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE WEST BANK.

AND HE SAID YEAH, IF THERE MIGHT BE A CASE FOR ANNEXATION.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU EXPECT TO BE THE RESULT OF THE NEXT FOUR YEARS OF A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ON ISRAEL AND THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND THAT SITUATION?

>> WELL, I CAN'T, BECAUSE I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> BUT TO THOSE KINDS OF WORDS WERE YOU, BECAUSE IT IS DEFINITELY AGAINST U.S. POLICY ?

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS, FIRST OF ALL, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS GOING TO SPEAK FOR HIS ADMINISTRATION ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT SET OF ISSUES.

A FEW THINGS YOU CAN SEE VERY CLEARLY, WE ARE GOING TO BE STRONGLY SUPPORTING ISRAEL, WHICH I PERSONALLY VERY MUCH SUPPORT.

I THINK WE ARE GOING TO LOOK TO ALLIES LIKE ISRAEL WHO ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO TAKE THEIR DEFENSE MORE INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

KIND OF COUNTER TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, CHRISTIANE , INITIATIVES LIKE THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE HOPEFULLY A PRAGMATIC APPROACH TOWARDS BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE REGION.

IN A SENSE, SOMETHING THE BIDEN NOT THERE IS A VESSEL IN ADVANCING, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT BUILDING ON THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS MODEL.

AND YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN SOME RESPONSES FROM THE QATARI'S, HAMAS, EVEN THE IRANIANS.

THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTED THERE SOFTENING THEIR POSITION, SO I THINK YOU SEE PROGRESS.

MY SENSE IS WE NEED TO BE REALISTIC.

THE MIDDLE EAST IS NOT GOING TO TURN INTO SHANGRI-LA FROM ONE DAY TO THE NEXT AND THAT IS NOT A REALISTIC EXPECTATION, BUT I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A BETTER OUTCOME, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM VERSUS THE BIDEN TERM, I THINK THE RESULTS REALLY JUST SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

>> ELBRIDGE COLBY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WE ARE GOING TO WAIT TO SEE WHETHER YOU GET PICKED, BACK FOR ANOTHER TERM IN THE ADMINISTRATION, AND IF SO, WE WANT YOU BACK ON OUR PROGRAM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW, FOR MORE ON THIS, LET'S TURN TO RICHARD, A PRINCIPAL ADVISER TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND HIS PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF THE COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS, ANTI-ASTRONOMY FROM NEW YORK.

RICHARD, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

ANYTHING YOU HEARD FROM MR. COLBY AS TO THE FUTURE NATURE OF A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN VARIOUS FOREIGN-POLICY ASPECTS THAT YOU WANTED TO COMMENT ON?

>> NO, I THINK HE IS UNDERSTANDABLY AND PROPERLY BEING QUITE CAREFUL NOT TO GET OUT IN FRONT OF THE PRESIDENT- ELECT OR THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION, SO AGAIN, I THINK WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD DO, WHETHER IT IS CHINA, UKRAINE, THE MIDDLE EAST, IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN, AND YOU CLINICALLY AND A WHOLE LOT FROM WHAT ELBRIDGE COLBY HAD TO SAY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION, THEN, ON PETE HEGSETH AS THE NEXT DEFENSE SECRETARY?

DO YOU BELIEVE --AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO SAY HE IS THE LEAST QUALIFIED IN AMERICAN HISTORY?

>> I HAVE NEVER MET THE GENTLEMAN.

WHAT WORRIES ME, CHRISTIANE , IS HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE RUNNING AN ORGANIZATION.

HE SERVED, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A BUT HE HASN'T WORKED IN THE WASHINGTON DECISION-MAKING WORLD.

THE PENTAGON IS AN ENORMOUS MANAGEMENT CHALLENGE, BOTH THE BUILDING, THE PROCESS, AS WELL AS THE AMERICAN TROOPS SCATTERED AROUND THE WORLD, SO I WORRY ABOUT THAT, THAT BACKGROUND.

I ALSO WORRY ABOUT THE POLITICIZATION OF THE MILITARY.

YOU KNOW, THIS TALK ABOUT CREATING SOME KIND OF A SPECIAL GROUP, A WARRIOR GROUP TO THAT EXISTING ADMIRALS AND GENERALS, I WORRY ABOUT THAT .

THIS TALK ABOUT POTENTIALLY USING THE U.S. MILITARY --A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, UNDER THE INSURRECTION ACT, DID YOU WITH DISTURBANCES THAT FOR EXAMPLE COULD COME FROM AN EFFORT TO DEPORT MANY INDIVIDUALS, SO I AM WORRIED THAT WE ARE POTENTIALLY HAVING SOMEONE AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WHO SIMPLY COMES AT THINGS QUITE POLITICALLY AND DOESN'T HAVE THE MANAGEMENT BACKGROUND.

THAT SAID, IF HE GETS CONFIRMED, WE WILL JUST HAVE TO SEE, AND WE WILL SEE HOW WELL HE DOES AND WE WILL TAKE IT >> I HAD WANTED TO PUT THIS STATEMENT FROM THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, GENERAL MARK MILLEY, TWO ELBRIDGE COLBY, BUT I DIDN'T GET THE TIME, SO I'M GOING TO PLAY IT AND ASK YOU.

THIS IS ABOUT THE LOYALTY TEST, AND TO BE FRANK, WHAT PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IN 2016 -- WOULD ANY MILITARY BE PREVAILED UPON TO POTENTIALLY COMMIT AN ILLEGAL ACT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WERE ORDERED TO DO SO?

THIS IS WHAT MARK MILLEY HAS SAID IN GENERAL ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OR ABOUT THE MILITARY'S DUTY.

>> WE DON'T TAKE AN OATH TO A KING OR A QUEEN OR A TYRANT OR A DICTATOR.

AND WE DON'T TAKE AN OATH TO A WANNABE DICTATOR.

WE DON'T TAKE AN OATH TO AN INDIVIDUAL.

WE TAKE AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND WE TAKE AN OATH TO THE IDEA THAT IS AMERICA, AND WE ARE WILLING TO DIE TO PROTECT IT.

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, AS I HAVE SAID, IN THE BEGINNING, PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF ORDERS.

THIS WAS MILLEY'S FAREWELL SPEECH.

DO YOU THINK --ARE THERE GUARDRAILS THIS TIME THAT YOU CAN SEE THAT WOULD REALLY MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING WAS SAFE AND ON THE RIGHT TRACK?

>> LET ME SAY TWO THINGS.

ONE, THE U.S. MILITARY, I THINK IS THE MOST PROFESSIONAL, EXTRAORDINARY INSTITUTION IN AMERICAN SOCIETY, IT REALLY OFFERS A SUCCESS STORY, A REAL MODEL, SO I WOULD HATE TO SEE ANYTHING DONE WITH IT OR PUT IT IN SITUATIONS THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY UNDERMINE ITS INTERNAL COHESION, AND PUTTING IT IN SITUATIONS, EVEN IF THEY ARE TECHNICALLY LAWFUL, THAT ARE INAPPROPRIATE, WOULD WORRY ME.

AND AGAIN, THERE'S ALL SORTS OF TRADITION AND LAW AND NORMS AGAINST USING U.S. MILITARY ON AMERICAN SOIL, IN AMERICAN TELE- TORY, SO I THINK THINGS WOULD NOT COME TO THAT, AND I WOULD HOPE THAT THE U.S. MILITARY WOULD REMAIN IN SOME WAYS OUR GREATEST MERITOCRACY, WHERE PEOPLE, MEN AND WOMEN ONLY GET TO.

AND I WOULD NOT WANT THERE TO BE A KIND OF POLITICAL VETTING OF PROMOTIONS, I THINK THAT WOULD BE REALLY POISONOUS FOR THE MILITARY, SO AGAIN, I HOPE IT DOESN'T COME TO THAT.

YOU HAVE ASKED WHETHER THERE WILL BE GUARDRAILS.

I THINK THAT IS A QUESTION OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WE HAVE GOT A RARE MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY HERE.

SUDDENLY, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE CHECKS AND BALANCES.

WHAT WE HAVE IS THE AMERICAN EQUIVALENT OF A PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM.

THINK ABOUT IT, THE WHITE HOUSE, THE SENATE, MOST LIKELY THE HOUSE ARE ALL IN REPUBLICAN HANDS.

THE SUPREME COURT LEANS THAT WAY, SO THE QUESTION IS WHERE DOES THE PUSHBACK COME FROM?

HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE GUARDRAILS THAT WILL TAKE INDIVIDUALS OF CONSCIENCE, THE MEDIAS ROLE TO PLAY, AMERICAN SOCIETY AT LARGE HAS A ROLE TO PLAY, BUT WE'VE GOT TO HOPE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE AROUND THE 47 PRESIDENT WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOYALTY ON PERSONAL TERMS, BUT UNDERSTAND TERMS.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT PUSHBACK.

HE HAS ALREADY SAID, EVEN ON HIS VICTORY NIGHT SPEECH, HE ALREADY CALLED THE PRESS THE ENEMY , AND SINGLED OUT CERTAIN INSTITUTIONS IN THE MAINSTREAM PRESS, BUT NONETHELESS, HE HAS ALSO TALKED ABOUT SENDING THE MILITARY.

YOU JUST SAID IT SHOULDN'T BE USED ON AMERICAN SOIL TO DO DEPORTATIONS, TO GO OFF TO THE "ENEMY WITHIN," BUT WHAT YOU MAKE OF SENATOR RUBIO AND CONGRESSMAN WALTZ WHO HAVE BEEN NAMED AS SECRETARY OF STATE AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER?

WHAT DO THEIR POLITICS AND THEIR RECORD ON ISSUES, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE UKRAINE OR CHINA OR WHATEVER, WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU, IS A HIGHLY ALIGNED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, IS A MORE BIPARTISAN, I DON'T KNOW?

>> NEITHER ONE IS AN ISOLATIONIST, SO I THOUGHT THAT WAS WELCOME.

THEY BOTH ALSO HAVE BACKGROUNDS AND BASES.

THERE ARE NOT CREATURES OF DONALD TRUMP.

IN THE SENATE.

MIKE WALTZ IN THE HOUSE, IN ADDITION TO HIS MILITARY BACKGROUND, PLUS HE SERVED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN THE PENTAGON, THOUGH I LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY COME WITH SOME INDEPENDENCE, A BASE, IF YOU WILL, OF THEIR OWN.

THEY ARE BOTH VERY TOUGH ON CHINA.

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW THAT GETS TRANSLATED INTO POLICY.

IS IT SIMPLY AN ECONOMIC BASE RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, DO WE THREATEN TARIFFS AND SANCTIONS, OR ARE WE PREPARED TO USE MILITARY FORCE?

THE EVEN BIGGER QUESTION IS WHAT THEY ARE PREPARING TO DO TO UKRAINE.

BOTH, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, VOTED AGAINST THE MOST RECENT FOR UKRAINE, BUT THE REAL QUESTION IS IF YOU WANT TO GET FROM WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW TO A NEGOTIATION, CUTTING OFF AID TO UKRAINE IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT.

RUSSIA HAS TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT FACES [ INAUDIBLE ], THAT IS CONSIDER COMPROMISING, AND WE HAVE TO GIVE MR. ZELENSKYY THE CONFIDENCE THAT IF HE DOES MAKE SOME COMPROMISES, UKRAINE WILL REMAIN AN INDEPENDENT, FUNCTIONING COUNTRY, SO I THINK THERE IS A BIG QUESTION MARK OVER WHERE WE ARE GOING TO COME OUT ON UKRAINE.

THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU MENTIONED WHEN I TALK WITH YOU BEFORE, AND OTHERS, WHAT CONCERNS ME THERE IS WE HAVE GOT PEOPLE GETTING INVOLVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHO SEEM TO THINK THAT U.S. POLICY IS SIMPLY TO GIVE ISRAEL A GREEN LIGHT.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT IS IN ISRAEL'S SELF-INTEREST, I DON'T THINK THAT IS IN AMERICA'S SELF- INTEREST AT TIMES, SO I HOPE OUR POLICY BECOMES POTENTIALLY MORE CRITICAL, OR AT LEAST MORE REALISTIC THERAPY >> CAN I THEN JUST PLAY A QUICK SOUND BITE FROM MIKE HUCKABEE, WHO SPOKE TO ISRAEL RADIO, AND HE BASICALLY SAID ANNEXATION IS ON THE TABLE AGAIN.

HERE WE GO.

>> I THINK ISRAEL HAS [ INAUDIBLE ] THERE ARE CERTAIN WORDS I REFUSE TO USE.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WEST BANK.

[ INAUDIBLE ] THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SETTLEMENT, THEIR COMMUNITIES, THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS, THEIR CITIES.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN OCCUPATION.

SO, THAT IS HIM IN 2017 TALKING ABOUT THOSE ISSUES.

TODAY, HE TOLD ISRAEL RADIO THAT ANNEXATION WAS BACK ON THE TABLE.

BREAK THAT DOWN AND WHAT IT MEANS.

>> ANNEXATION, I THINK, WOULD BE A DISASTER, NOT JUST FOR PALESTINIANS WHO WOULD LOSE ANY CHANCE OF GETTING A COUNTRY, IF YOU ARE TRULY SUPPORTIVE OF ISRAEL, YOU SHOULD WANT ISRAEL TO BE A SECURE, PROSPEROUS, JEWISH, AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY WITH ROBUST TIES TO THE WEST.

ANNEXATION PUTS ALL OF THAT AT RISK, SO I REALLY DON'T SEE THAT IN ANY WAY AS IN ISRAEL'S SELF- INTEREST OR IN THE INTEREST OF A CLOSE U.S.-ISRAELI RELATIONSHIP.

I WOULD HOPE AMBASSADOR HUCKABEE, AS HE GETS MORE INVOLVED WITH THE ISSUES, WOULD COME TO RETHINK SOME OF THOSE POSITIONS.

THAT WOULD ALSO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ISRAEL TO FORGE LASTING RELATIONSHIPS ARAB WORLD.

AGAIN, ON MY SHORT LIST OF COUNTERPRODUCTIVE THINGS, CHRISTIANE , ANNEXATION OF THE LAND --WHAT IS THE WEST BANK, ANNEXATION OF ANY OF THAT LAND, ABSENT A MUCH LARGER PEACE AGREEMENT WHERE THERE IS COMPENSATION IN TERMS OF TERRITORY AND THE LIKE, BUT JUST SIMPLY ISOLATING AND ANNEXATION WOULD BE DRAMATICALLY AGAINST THE SELF- INTEREST OF BOTH THIS COUNTRY AND ISRAEL.

>> AND LET'S MOVE TO GAZA WHERE THERE IS A BIG REPORT THAT SUGGESTS THAT ISRAELI FORCES ARE GOING TO BE THERE AT LEAST THROUGH 2025, AND MAYBE LONGER, AND THE WHOLE BUSINESS OF KIND OF BUILDING AN INFRASTRUCTURE IN NORTHERN GAZA HAS BEEN SEEN AND INVESTIGATED.

ROADS AND PLACES WHERE THEY WILL BUILD MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE THERE.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS TOLD BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO "DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO FINISH THE JOB."

IN ISRAEL AND LEBANON.

HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WANTS THIS OVER BY THE TIME HE IS INAUGURATED.

>> WELL, I FEAR IT WON'T BE OVER, BUT IT SHOULD BE OVER.

RIGHT NOW, THERE IS EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IN GAZA, IF ISRAEL WOULD SIMPLY, AMONG OTHER THINGS, AGREE TO A CEASE-FIRE, NOT ONLY WOULD IT HAVE A CHANCE OF GETTING THE HOSTAGES BACK, BUT COUPLE THAT WITH SOME SORT OF A COMMITMENT TO PALESTINIAN POLITICAL ENTITY OR STATE, WHAT HAVE YOU, I THINK THEN YOU COULD BRING AN ARAB STABILIZATION FORCE INTO GAZA, YOU COULD CREATE A BORDER THERE, HAMAS WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO RE-EMERGE, YOU WOULDN'T NEED AN ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

THIS SEEMS TO ME TO BE SO MUCH IN ISRAEL'S INTEREST, AND THE ARAB STATES ARE WILLING TO DO IT, THEN YOU COULD REBUILD.

SO, IT WOULD BE A POLITICAL, STRATEGIC, ECONOMIC, AND HUMANITARIAN GAIN.

IN LEBANON, ISRAEL HAS DELIVERED A DECISIVE BLOW AGAINST HEZBOLLAH.

I WOULD SAY LET'S BUILD ON THAT, LET'S GET A CEASE-FIRE, LET'S GET THOSE 60 OR 70,000 ISRAELIS BACK IN THEIR HOMES IN NORTHERN ISRAEL, AND LET'S CREATE THE BASIS FOR A LONG- TERM CEASE-FIRE, AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, THE BEGINNING OF THE REBUILDING OF A MODERN STATE OF LEBANON.

LET'S STOP THE ACTIVITY WHICH I THINK CLOSES OFF POTENTIAL FOR DIPLOMACY IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD.

HOPEFULLY, THE IRANIANS WILL TAKE ANOTHER STEP AGAINST ISRAEL, AND THEN WE CAN MAYBE, THE ISRAELI-IRANIAN RELATIONSHIP FOR A TIME.

SO, I ACTUALLY THINK MR. TRUMP COMES TO OFFICE POTENTIALLY WITH EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY, BUT THAT OPPORTUNITY WILL ONLY BE HARVESTED, NOT IF THE AMERICANS GIVE THE ISRAELIS A FREE HAND TO DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, BUT IF WE PRESS ISRAEL TO BASICALLY, LET'S BRING ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, LET'S BRING ABOUT A CEASE- FIRE IN THE NORTH, AND LET'S BEGIN A POLITICAL PROCESS.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A PALESTINIAN STATE TOMORROW OR NEXT WEEK OR NEXT YEAR, BUT LET'S AT LEAST BEGIN A POLITICAL PROCESS THAT AMONG OTHER THINGS, WOULD ARAB STABILIZATION FORCE TO ENTER GAZA.

>> I MEAN, I WONDER IF YOU CAN SEE THAT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE, GIVEN WHO IS IN CHARGE IN ISRAEL AND THE IDEOLOGICAL BACKERS OF NETANYAHU WHO REALLY DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT, AND HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT TRUMP'S ELECTION SHOULD BE OUR GREEN LIGHT TO GO AND FINISH THE SETTLEMENT PROJECT AND ALL OF THE REST OF IT.

I MEAN, THEY ARE VERY KEEN ON THAT, THEY THINK THEY HAVE A STRONG ALLY, BASED ON WHAT YOU DID FOR THEM LAST TIME.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY YOU THINK ISRAEL DOESN'T CAPITALIZE ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THAT IT HAS DEALT REAL DEVASTATING BLOWS TO HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS, AND SEEMS TO BE PLAYING A TERRIBLY DEADLY GAME OF WHAC-A- MOLE IN NORTHERN GAZA, JUST BACK AND FORTH, BACK AND FORTH, AND POCKETS OF HAMAS BEING ATTACKED BY THE AIR, AND AGAIN, TENS OF HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS, CHILDREN BEING KILLED ON A DAILY BASIS.

WHY DOESN'T ISRAEL SEE THAT IT IS WINNING AND STOP NOW?

>> ISRAEL IS WINNING MILITARILY, BUT IT IS NOT WINNING POLITICALLY, WE ARE UP AGAINST DIMINISHING RETURNS, AND IN GAZA, YOU ARE BOMBING RUBBLE, OR IN SOME CASES, AS YOU SAY, WHAC-A-MOLE, HAMAS IS RE-EMERGING IN CERTAIN AREAS.

THEN YOU ARE INTO ASSESSING OR ANALYZING THE MOTIVATIONS OF ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER AND SOME OF THOSE AROUND HIM.

SOME OF THOSE AROUND HIM CLEARLY DO WANT TO ANNEX PARTS OF THE WEST BANK, THEY WANT TO STOP FOREVER THE EMERGENCE OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, THEY WANT TO RESETTLE PARTS OF GAZA.

THE PRIME MINISTER, I BELIEVE, CLEARLY PREFERS REMAINING A WAR CRIME MINISTER, WHICH AMONG OTHER THINGS PUTS OFF MANY INVESTIGATIONS INTO WHY OCTOBER 7th WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO SPLIT HIS COALITION, SO PEOPLE HAVE ALL SORTS OF MOTIVES FOR CONTINUING THESE CONFLICTS, BUT AGAIN, IT IS UP TO PRESIDENT TRUMP TO PRESS, IF HE WANTS TO, SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I WILL TELL YOU, I HAD BREAKFAST AS RECENTLY AS YESTERDAY WITH AN ISRAELI WHO SAID THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WHO ARE UNEASY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS SO UNPREDICTABLE.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WE KNEW WHAT HIS PREFERENCES WERE.

SO, THEY CONSTANTLY CRITICIZE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WITH NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP AT LEAST HAS THE POTENTIAL IF HE WANTS TO GET ON THE PHONE TO NETANYAHU AND BASICALLY SAY, BB, THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE GOT AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK WITH ME THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, THIS IS WHAT I WANT AND NEED FROM YOU.

>> WE ARE GOING TO SEE IF PAST IS PROLOGUE, ET CETERA, WE WILL JUST SEE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, RICHARD HAASS.

>>> NOW, REMEMBER TRUMP ALSO SAYING I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION QUESTION THAT HE HAS IDENTIFIED CERTAIN MEDIA AS THE ENEMY AND THREATENED IN JAIL FOR COVERAGE HE DOESN'T LIKE.

TRUMP IS ALSO THE FIRST CONVICTED FELON TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY AND ENTER THE WHITE HOUSE, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

FORMER CNN MEDIA REPORTER WHO IS NOW THE FOUNDER OF STATUS AND MEDIA, OLIVER DARCY, SAYS THE RISE OF NONTRADITIONAL OUTLETS IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE, REACHING HUGE , TARGETED AUDIENCES, PRACTICALLY UNCHECKED, AND WITH NO GUARDRAILS ON SUPPORTERS TALKING POINTS AND OUTRIGHT LIES ON OCCASION.

DARCY JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE CONSEQUENCES.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE .

OLIVER DARCY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THAT'S IT'S A PLEASURE, GLAD TO BE HERE.

SO, ON YOUR DIGITAL NEWS SITE, STATUS NEWS, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THE LANDSCAPE OF TECH AND MEDIA'S INFLUENCE ON POLITICS.

AND WE HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN THAT THIS ELECTION CYCLE.

IN FACT, YOU RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT WHAT YOU CALLED THE POLLUTED INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT THAT SHAPED THIS ELECTION, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> I THINK THAT IF WE STEP BACK, AFTER AN ELECTION, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW VOTERS DECIDED TO SUPPORT WHICHEVER CANDIDATE THEY ENDED UP CASTING THEIR BALLOT FOR, AND I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHY THEY FELT CERTAIN ISSUES , YOU KNOW, ALIGN MORE WITH THE CANDIDATE THAT THEY CHOSE, AND THAT COMES DOWN TO THE INFORMATION THEY ARE CONSUMING.

THAT REALLY HELPS SHAPE, I THINK, A LOT OF THESE ISSUES AND THE WAY THEY PERCEIVE THEM, SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT THAT PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN EVERY SINGLE DAY, IT IS VERY POLLUTED.

IT IS NO LONGER DOMINATED BY NEWS ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE HIGH STANDARDS, THAT FACT CHECK, THAT REALLY AIM TO GET THINGS RIGHT, YOU HAVE A LOT OF TALKERS OUT THERE, PODCASTERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE INTENTIONALLY DISHONEST, PARTISAN, AND THIS REALLY SEEPS INTO THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS, IN A WAY, AND I THINK INFLUENCES HOW PEOPLE VOTE, SO, WHEN I SAY POLLUTED INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT, I MEAN A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE HEARING ARE EITHER NOT TRUE OR THEY ARE HEAVILY DISTORTED, BECAUSE PEOPLE THAT ARE PUSHING THEM HAVE AN AGENDA.

>> SO, HERE YOU WROTE THAT INSTEAD OF BEING SERVED UP AUTHORITATIVE CONTENT FROM TRUSTED SOURCES, A YOUNGER GENERATION OF VOTERS WHO ABSORBED NEWS THROUGH OSMOSIS, ON SOCIAL MEDIA, OR ALGORITHMICALLY FED A DIET OF JOE ROGAN CLICKS.

WE SAW THIS.

WE SAW THE FACT THAT THE MAJOR CANDIDATES, TRUMP AND HARRIS, REALLY LEANED INTO THESE SO- CALLED NONTRADITIONAL NEWS SOURCES.

WHAT I WANTED TO ASK IS WHAT WAS THE CHICKEN AND WHAT WAS THE EGG HERE?

DID THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THE SO- CALLED LEGACY MEDIA SOURCES WERE EFFECTIVE FOR THEM OR DID THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THESE DISTRIBUTORS OF CONTENT HAD SORT OF LOWERED THE GUARDRAILS, SO THEY HAD TO JUST KIND OF THE SWIM IN WHATEVER POND WAS THERE?

>> I THINK BOTH.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE TRYING TO GO WITH THE AUDIENCE, AND AUDIENCE AS CERTAINLY MOVED OVER TO A LOT OF THESE DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

JOE ROGAN'S PODCAST WITH DONALD TRUMP, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE VIEW COUNT IS, BUT I THINK IT IS OVER 50 MILLION VIEWS ON JUST YOUTUBE, SO IF YOU WANT TO REACH A LOT OF PEOPLE, GOING ON THESE PLATFORMS IS OFTEN A MORE EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT THERE GOING ON A MORE TRADITIONAL PLATFORM LIKE CABLE NEWS OR EVEN JUST THE NIGHTLY NEWS.

THESE OTHER PLATFORMS HAVE HUGE REACH.

AND THEN, AS YOU SAID, THEY ALSO HAVE LOWER STANDARDS, SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE SAME AGGRESSIVE LINE OF QUESTIONING FROM SOMEONE LIKE JOE ROGAN IF YOU ARE DONALD TRUMP.

YOU ARE MAYBE IF YOU GO ON THE JAKE TAPPER SHOW OR ON WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUESTION YOU AND HOLD YOU TO COUNT.

THESE PODCASTS ARE A LOT MORE LAX, THEIR CONVERSATIONS, AND SO, IF YOU ARE A CANDIDATE, YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE INFORMATION LANDSCAPE, YOU'RE THINKING, WHY WOULD I SUBJECT MYSELF TO 60 MINUTES WHEN I CAN JUST GO ON JOE ROGAN AND MAYBE REACH A BIGGER AUDIENCE?

>> IS THE LEGACY MEDIA AT FAULT HERE?

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE LEGACY MEDIA SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT THEY WERE NOT DOING, OR IS THIS THE POWER OF THESE ALTERNATE INFORMATION SOURCES, HOWEVER POLLUTED THEY MAY BE, JUST SO POWERFUL THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT THESE CANDIDATES ARE JUST GOING TO GO THERE, BECAUSE IT IS JUST EASIER FOR THEM?

X SURE, I THINK THE CANDIDATES ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO GO IN THE FUTURE TO THESE PODCASTS OR THESE OTHER SOURCES OUT THERE TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.

I DO THINK THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY LEAVE THE LEGACY PRESS OFF THE HOOK.

AND I THINK BY AND LARGE, IF YOU LOOKED AT A LOT OF THE COVERAGE, YOU KNOW, ON THE NIGHTLY NEWS OR ELSEWHERE, IT WAS VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON THE HORSE RACE, ON POLES, WHO IS UP, WHO IS DOWN, ON CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, WHAT IS THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, WHAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, AND NOT AS MUCH ON SUBSTANCE.

WHAT DOES DONALD TRUMP WANT TO DO IN HIS SECOND TERM?

WHAT DID DONALD TRUMP DO IN HIS FIRST TERM.

THOSE ARE THINGS I THINK THE LEGACY PRESS REALLY DIDN'T FOCUS ON UP ON, AND ALSO, NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE ENOUGH, ENCOUNTERING A LOT OF DONALD TRUMP SUPPLIES.

WE HAVE NEVER REALLY SEEN A POLITICIAN LIKE HIM, WHO LIVES WITH SUCH EASE AND WITH SUCH FREQUENCY, SO I THINK THE TRADITIONAL APPROACH, [ INAUDIBLE ] LIKE TO TAKE IN CHECKING A CANDIDATE, DOESN'T NECESSARILY WORK WITH DONALD TRUMP, YOU HAVE TO BE VERY AGGRESSIVE AND TAKE AN AGGRESSIVE STANCE AND POSTURE TOWARDS HIM, TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE LISTENING TO YOUR NEWSCAST UNDERSTAND WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHAT IS FICTION, AND I THINK ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, WHETHER IT IS THE ECONOMY OR THE BORDER OR ENERGY INDEPENDENCE, NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LET THESE MYTHS ABOUT TRUMP JUST KIND OF STAY AND SEEP INTO THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT REALLY MEANINGFUL PUSHBACK.

>> IF THAT IS THE CASE, THE LEGACY MEDIA SPEND A LOT OF RESOURCES AND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE WORDS RACE, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK IT IS PROBABLY A COUPLE REASONS.

ONE, THEY HAVE ALWAYS SORT OF THESE RACES HAVE BEEN GREAT GAME OF HIDE, IF YOU WILL, BUT I THINK THE SECOND THING IS IT COMES ACROSS AS NONPARTISAN.

PEOPLE, I THINK, ARE FEARFUL, A LOT OF THESE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS ARE FEARFUL OF BEING LABELED AS ANTI-TRUMP AND PARTISAN SOURCES.

AND WHEN YOU ARE JUST COVERING THE PROCESS AND THE STATE, THE POLLS, IT IS NOT PERCEIVED AS BEING ANTI-TRUMP.

IF YOU WERE TO SAY FOR INSTANCE AND DIVE INTO SOME OF THESE TOPICS AND SAY DONALD TRUMP IS LYING TO YOU, DONALD TRUMP LIED ABOUT THIS, HE JOKED ABOUT REPORTERS BEING SHOT, HE DID THIS AND THIS, I THINK THEN PEOPLE --NEWS EXECUTIVES AND JOURNALISTS ARE AWARE THAT THEY WILL BE PERCEIVED AS PARTISAN, SO THIS IS A NICE WAY OUT OF THAT, WHERE YOU CAN COVER THE RACE STILL, BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BREATHE FIRE ON ONE CANDIDATE AND COME ACROSS AS BEING BIASED OR IN FAVOR OF ONE CAMP.

>> WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK IT MAKES THAT SO MANY OF THE EITHER NEWS ORGANIZATIONS OR, I WOULD SAY CONTENT DISTRIBUTORS, WHICH OF THE TECH COMPANIES ARE, ARE OWNED BY A HANDFUL OF BILLIONAIRES?

WE SEE THAT X, FORMERLY TWITTER, IS OWNED BY ELON MUSK, THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, OR SO WE ARE TOLD, WHO REALLY HAS MADE IT INTO A VEHICLE FOR HIS POLITICAL OBJECTIVES AND HIS IDEOLOGICAL PREOCCUPATIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY ONE, AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE.

>> I THINK IT IS ALARMING THAT MOST OF THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION IS CONTROLLED BY A VERY SMALL HANDFUL OF PEOPLE, ALL OF WHOM HAVE INTEREST OUTSIDE OF BEING IN PLACE FOR A GOOD, ROBUST PUBLIC CONVERSATION.

I THINK YOU SAW THAT WITH META, OWNED BY MARK ZUCKERBERG, OBVIOUSLY THIS PAST ELECTION CYCLE, WHERE THEY DOWN GRADED POLITICAL CONTENT, MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO FOLLOW NEWS ON THE PLATFORM, WHETHER IT IS THREADS OR INSTAGRAM.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE SOME ISSUES WITH YOUTUBE.

THEY MONETIZE A LOT OF ELECTION MISINFORMATION, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE TO ME AFTER THE 2020 THERE IS A PROBLEM, I THINK, WITH STANDARDS ON THESE TECH PLATFORMS AND THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK YOU'RE SEEING ALL OF THEM BASICALLY [ INAUDIBLE ] DONALD TRUMP NOW IN PUBLIC, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT OF BUSINESS BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT AND THEY DON'T WANT THE COMPANIES TO BE AT A DISADVANTAGE, AND SO YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT IS TIM COOK OR GOOGLE OR MARK ZUCKERBERG OR ELON MUSK, THEY ARE ALL ARMED TO SOME EXTENT , BENDING THE KNEE IN FRONT OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT LET ME JUST STOP YOU, ELON MUSK HAS ARGUED, HE HAS PUT TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEHIND US, THAT HE THINKS FREE SPEECH REALLY MEANS FREE SPEECH AND THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, AND I GUESS IT WILL GET SORTED OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS.

AND THAT INCLUDES SPEECH THAT OTHER PEOPLE FIND OBJECTIONABLE OR EVEN FALSE.

>> I THINK IT IS A VERY THORNY ISSUE.

IT IS NOT LIKE THERE IS AN EASY ANSWER FOR THESE QUESTIONS AROUND FREE SPEECH ONLINE.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS THINGS THAT PLATFORMS CAN DO, WHICH IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN PEOPLE SEEK OUT INFORMATION, FOR INSTANCE, ON GOOGLE SEARCH, THE AUTHORITATIVE, CREDIBLE SOURCES ARE THE ONES THAT COME OUT, NOT THESE CONSPIRATORIAL ANTI-VAX WEBSITES OR WHATNOT, AND I THINK YOU HAVE SEEN SOME TECH PLATFORMS TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

OBVIOUSLY, ELON MUSK IS NOT REALLY ONE OF THOSE GUYS WHO BELIEVES IN THIS.

I WOULD ALSO STRESSED THAT ELON MUSK SAYS HE IS FIRST FREE SPEECH, BUT HE HAS SAID A LOT OF THINGS THAT WOULD SUGGEST HE IS NOT REALLY FOR FREE SPEECH WHEN IT COMES TO HIS CRITICS TALKING, HE HAS SUED CRITICS, HE HAS BEEN IN COMPLIANCE WITH GOVERNMENT TAKEDOWN ORDERS ABROAD AND THE PREVIOUS LEADERSHIP AT TWITTER, SO THERE ARE THINGS THAT HE HAS DONE, HIS TRACK RECORD DOESN'T NECESSARILY ALIGN UP WITH HIS RHETORIC, BUT THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT SPEECH ON PLATFORMS, IT IS VERY CHALLENGING AND YOU NEVER REALLY HAD ALGORITHMS BOOST A LOT OF THESE DISHONEST PEOPLE EITHER, RIGHT?

IF YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY TO SHOUT AND GET OUTSIDE IN NEW YORK CITY, [ INAUDIBLE ] ALGORITHMICALLY BOOSTED TO PEOPLE NOT FOLLOWING YOU.

THEY SHOULD PROBABLY HAVE SOME SORT OF BASE STANDARD ABOUT WHO THEY ARE [ INAUDIBLE ] THE PROBLEM IS HE IS GIVING A LOT OF REACH TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DISHONEST.

>> YOU HAVE SPOKEN A LOT ABOUT THE BUSINESS SIDE, YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW CHANGES IN THE BUSINESS ITSELF ADVANCED THE IMPACT ON POLITICS.

THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS ARE THE POLITICAL FIGURES WHO HAVE TO KIND OF NAVIGATE THIS SPACE, ARE THEY ATTENTIVE TO THESE CHANGES?

>> I MEAN, I DO THINK THAT THE LEGACY MEDIA HASN'T EVOLVED PROBABLY QUICK ENOUGH IN RECOGNIZING THE CHANGES OF MEDIA LANDSCAPE.

I THINK YOU ARE SEEING SOME OF THEM DO THAT NOW, BUT BY AND LARGE, I THINK THE LEGACY MEDIA WAS LIVING OFF OF AN OLD BUSINESS MODEL, AND THAT BUSINESS MODEL IS NOW QUICKLY COLLAPSING AND IT IS PROMPTING THEM TO SEEK OUT OTHER REVENUE STREAMS, OTHER BUSINESS MODELS, BUT BEFORE, THEY WERE HAPPY TO BASICALLY BE AT THE BUFFET THAT WAS KEEPING THEM IN BUSINESS FOR SO LONG, AND I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT YOUTUBERS OR PODCASTERS, THEY GENERALLY HAVE TO BE A LOT MORE SCRAPPY.

THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR AUDIENCES, THEY REALLY WORKED TO BUILD THEM, AND YOU KNOW, FOR SO LONG, PEOPLE WOULD JUST TURN ON THE TV AND WATCH WORLD NEWS TONIGHT, THEY WOULD TURN ON THE TV AND WATCH THE TODAY SHOW.

THERE WASN'T MUCH WORK THAT WAS NECESSARILY BEING DONE TO EARN THE AUDIENCE, WHEREAS IF YOU LOOK AT THE PODCASTERS, THEY ARE REALLY SCRAPPY.

AND I THINK THAT IS ONE ISSUE.

BUT YEAH, I GUESS IT IS NOT ENTIRELY THEIR FAULT.

PEOPLE WILL GO TO OUTLETS THAT ARE SOFT AROUND THEM THAT HAVE HUGE REACH, BUT PARTIALLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THESE LEGACY OUTLETS, THESE REALLY DONE A LOT MORE EARLY ON TO ADAPT TO THE CHANGING MEDIA ENVIRONMENT, AND OUR REALLY, AT THE LAST FINAL MINUTE BEFORE THE CLOCK STRIKES MIDNIGHT, THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET INTO THESE FIELDS.

>> SO, LET'S FAST-FORWARD HERE.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP HAS MADE NO SECRET OF THE FACT THAT HE IS NO FAN OF THE LEGACY MEDIA.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE HAS ALWAYS TRASHED THE MEDIA, RIGHT?

THE FAKE NEWS, WE HAVE HEARD IT ALL.

IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN, HIS MOST RECENT CAMPAIGN, HE SAID HE WOULDN'T MIND IF THE JOURNALIST GOT SHOT, WHICH IS CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN SAYS WAS MISINTERPRETED, BUT WE ALL HEARD IT, WE CAN DECIDE WHAT WE THINK ABOUT THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS VERY AVAILABLE TO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

HE WAS VERY AVAILABLE, HE GAVE LOTS OF INTERVIEWS, HE TALKED TO PEOPLE AT LENGTH FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT SORT OF OUTLETS.

I'M JUST CURIOUS, GOING FORWARD, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO?

>> I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S RELATION SHIP TO MEDIA GETS [ INAUDIBLE ].

IT GETS VERY HOT AND COLD.

OCCASIONALLY, HE WILL DO A LOT OF INTERVIEWS, AND THEN HE WOULD JUST GO BACK TO FOX NEWS UNIVERSE AND JUST KIND OF STAY THERE.

AND SO, THE LATTER PART OF THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK THAT'S GENERALLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE CANCELED 60 MINUTES, HE CANCELED A CNBC INTERVIEW, AND HE WAS DOING THESE PODCASTS AND HANGING OUT ON FOX NEWS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I THINK THAT WILL OSCILLATE DURING THIS PRESIDENTS DAY.

BUT HOW HE TREATS THE PRESS IS UP IN THE AIR.

I TALKED TO STEPHANIE BRUSH ON EARLIER THIS SUMMER AND SHE SAID SHE HAD BEEN TASKED WITH KEEPING A LOT OF THE CRITICAL PRESS OFF OF WHITE HOUSE GROUNDS.

YOU SAW THEM TRY DOING THAT IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION OF JIM ACOSTA, AND I'M NOT CONVINCED HE WON'T TRY THAT AGAIN.

I THINK HE IS GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST WILLING TO THROW OUT THE NORMS AND TAKE A REALLY HARD LINE STANCE AGAINST THE NEWS MEDIA, SO WE WILL SEE.

AND OF COURSE, JUST LIKE THE IDEA THAT HE COULD MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE LIKE JEFF BEZOS IF THE WASHINGTON POST OVERLY CRITICAL.

I THINK THAT IS A BIG WORRY AS WELL.

>> LIKE HOW, LIKE WHAT COULD HE DO?

WELL, BLUE ORIGIN, HIS SPACE COMPANY HAS BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CONTRACTS WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

I THINK IF THEY WERE MAYBE AWARDED TO SOMEONE LIKE ELON MUSK, WHO NOW IS BEST FRIENDS WITH DONALD TRUMP, THAT WOULD BE A PROBLEM FOR JEFF BEZOS, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GREAT.

AMAZON WEB SERVICES ALSO HAS A LOT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.

SO, IF HE WERE TO MAYBE TAKE THAT AWAY OR START AWARDING THESE BIG CONTRACTS TO COMPETITORS, I THINK THAT PRESENTS A PROBLEM FOR SOMEONE LIKE JEFF BEZOS.

YOU KNOW, THESE COMPANIES ARE VERILY HEAVILY INTERTWINED WITH GOVERNMENT, JUST AS ELON MUSK'S ARE, THAT'S WHY ELON MUSK IS PROBABLY A VERY HAPPY MAN TODAY.

HE IS WORTH MORE THAN $50 BILLION SINCE ELECTION DAY, BECAUSE WALL STREET SEES THAT HE IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NEW PRESIDENT AND THAT IS GOING TO BE VERY BENEFICIAL TO TESLA, AND SPACEX, BOTH OF WHICH RELY ON A LOT OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

SO, IT IS NOT REALLY HARD TO IN THE WASHINGTON POST, IT'S A VERY SMALL BUSINESS, THAT IS NOT A THING THAT IS MAKING MONEY, IT IS ACTUALLY LOSING MONEY.

SO LIKE YOU COULD SEE IF YOUR JEFF BEZOS AND YOU ARE PRESENTED WITH DO I LOSE SOME SUBSCRIBERS TO THE WASHINGTON POST OR DO I LOSE ALIENS OF DOLLARS IN BLUE ORIGIN CONTRACTS?

THAT IS A CALCULATION HE HAS BASICALLY GOT TO MAKE, AND YOU CAN SEE WHY HE MIGHT NOT WANT TO ENDORSE KAMALA HARRIS AT THE LAST MINUTE.

>> THE QUESTION, OLIVER, IS WHAT TWO PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK [ INAUDIBLE ] NOT BE ORGANIZED BY PEOPLE WHO CAN CURRY FAVOR WITH WHOEVER IS IN POWER THROUGH THEIR VAST PERSONAL WEALTH, WHO CAN CONTROL COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AND THEN ON TO, YOU KNOW, THE POINT THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE , WHAT DO PEOPLE DO WHO DON'T AGREE WITH THAT, WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

>> I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW.

THIS IS THE ISSUE THAT WE ARE NOW AS A SOCIETY CONFRONTING, AS PEOPLE AMASS INSANE AMOUNTS OF WEALTH, BECAUSE NOW, EVEN WITH ELON MUSK, IF THE FINDS HIM FOR POSSIBLY VIOLATING THE LAW WITH THE MILLION-DOLLAR GIVEAWAY HE WAS DOING IN PENNSYLVANIA, DOES IT MATTER TO HIM?

IT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM.

YOU CAN FIND HIM $1 MILLION, IT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM.

IT IS ALMOST LIKE A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BASICALLY BECOME ABOVE THE LAW TO SOME EXTENT, UNLESS THEY ARE COMMITTED LIKE A VIOLENT CRIME.

SO, I THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE AS A SOCIETY WE ARE LEARNING TO GRAPPLE WITH, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE AMASS THIS MUCH WEALTH, WHERE THEY ARE BASICALLY ABLE TO FLY HIGH ABOVE A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DO OBEY THE LAW AND ORDER?

>> SO, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE PAYING ATTENTION TO?

>> I THINK ELON MUSK AND DONALD TRUMP'S ORIGINAL -- RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO BE REALLY KEY.

I'M ALSO CURIOUS HOW THESE BILLIONAIRES WHO OWN THESE MEDIA COMPANIES ARE GOING TO ACT.

IS THE WASHINGTON POST GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TARGETING COVERAGE OF DONALD TRUMP AS IT DID IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION, OR WAS WHAT JEFF BEZOS DID WITH THE ENDORSEMENT A SIGN OF WHAT COULD BE TO COME?

AND I THINK ALSO, ANOTHER KEY THING TO WATCH WOULD BE THESE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE NBC NEWS OR CNN, OWNED BY BIGGER MEDIA CONGLOMERATES, HOW DO THEY COVER THE WHITE HOUSE, BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE SOME BUSINESS POTENTIALLY BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT ?

THEY WANT TO DO SOME ACQUISITIONS, A LOT OF THESE NEWS COMPANIES HAVE TALKED OPENLY ABOUT THAT, AND IF ONE OF THE OUTLETS, LET'S SAY NBC NEWS OR MSNBC IS A REAL THORN IN THE SIDE TO DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, HE MIGHT PULL THE LEVERS OF GOVERNMENT AND MAKE IT A DEAL THAT BRIAN ROBERTS AT COMCAST WANTS TO MAKE A LITTLE MORE CHALLENGING.

YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN HIM THREATEN THAT.

HE POSTED ON HIS TRUTH SOCIAL PLATFORM LAST YEAR THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD COME DOWN HARD ON BRIAN ROBERTS AND COMCAST, THE OWNERS OF NBC AND UNIVERSAL, FOR THE COVERAGE ON MSNBC THAT HE WAS RECEIVING.

I AM PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT AS WELL.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF BEHIND- THE-SCENES POSITIONING THAT A MAKING THAT WILL INFLUENCE NEWS COVERAGE, AND ULTIMATELY THE INFORMATION ECOSYSTEM IN WHICH PEOPLE LIVE.

>> OLIVER DARCY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US .

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, THIS IS GREAT AND FUN.

>> AND FINALLY, SHOOT FOR THE STARS, THAT IS WHAT BRITISH AUTHOR SAMANTHA HARVEY DID WITH HER NOVEL, ORBITAL, WHICH HAS WON THIS YEAR'S PRESTIGIOUS PRIZE HERE IN THE UK.

IT TELLS THE TALE OF SIX FICTIONAL ASTRONAUTS ON THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION, EXPLORING THEMES SUCH AS DESIRE, MOURNING, AND THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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HANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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