>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP .

WORLD LEADERS RECKON WITH A WARMING PLANET AND A SECOND TRUMP TERM AT COP 29.

I'M JOINED BY THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OF WASHINGTON STATE, JAY INSLEE, HE STATES HIS LEGACY ON THE CLIMATE ISSUE.

THEN -- >> SHE NEEDS TO FEEL IT.

SHE NEEDS TO SUFFER AS I HAVE.

>> A SHATTERING REVELATION THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING.

THE SERIES FINALE OF DISCLAIMER.

MORE OF MY CONVERSATION WITH CREATOR ALFONSO AND STAR CATE BLANCHETT.

>> WHY MEN TURNED OUT FOR TRUMP.

PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN INSTITUTE FOR BOYS AND MEN RICHARD REID SAYS WHY HE THINKS THE DEMOGRAPHIC WAS A BLIND SPOT FOR DEMOCRATS.

.

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THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WORLD LEADERS GAME PLANNING FOR TRUMP 2.0 NEW WORLD ORDER.

IN EUROPE, THE POLISH PRIME MINISTER HAS CALLED FOR MEETINGS WITH FELLOW LEADERS FOR UKRAINE, NATO, CALLING THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE A SERIOUS CHALLENGE.

A POTENTIALLY MUCH MORE FAVORABLE TILT TOWARDS BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND FAR RIGHT ALLIES LIKE UNDER TRUMP 1.0.

IN AZERBAIJAN TODAY, GLOBAL DELEGATES TRYING TO MITIGATE CLIMATE CHANGE AT THE ANNUAL COP SUMMIT.

REMEMBERING WITH DREAD FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP PULLING OUT OF THE PARIS ACCORD.

HE SPENT THIS CAMPAIGN BABY, DRILL.

IN HIS VICTORY SPEECH HE ENTHUSED, FLORAL --OIL OR LIQUID GOLD WOULD BE POURED UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP.

2024 HAS BEEN THE HOTTEST YEAR ON RECORD LIKE LAST YEAR WAS AND PROBABLY LIKE NEXT YEAR WILL BE, TOO.

JUST LOOK AT THESE PICTURES FROM PAKISTAN AND INDIA TODAY.

SO MUCH TOXIC SMOG THAT IT'S VISIBLE FROM SPACE.

WE ARE JOINED BY THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OF WASHINGTON STATE ENSLEY.

THE GREENEST GOVERNOR OF THE UNITED DATES.

IS DEDICATED MUCH OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER TO MITIGATING THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

HE JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC.

>> SOMETHING YOU HAVE REALLY DEDICATED YOUR TIME IN OFFICE TWO.

I WANT TO START ABOUT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID EVEN ON HIS VICTORY SPEECH.

THAT'S OBVIOUSLY HANGING OVER WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE IN THE FUTURE.

LET ME PLAY THIS.

>> LEAVE THE OIL TO ME.

WE HAVE MORE LIQUID GOLD, OIL AND GAS, MORE LIQUID GOLD THAN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, MORE THAN SAUDI ARABIA, MORE THAN RUSH UP.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> THIS IS CERTAINLY BEEN A SHOCK OF THE INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO COMPLETE CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE REASON I'M TALKING ABOUT AZERBAIJAN THIS EVENING IS TO ASSURE THE WORLD THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT DONE IN OUR CLIMATE FIGHTING EFFORTS.

WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS EFFORT AND WE HAVE BROAD SWATHS OF THE UNITED STATES, 60% OF THE U.S. ECONOMY BELONGING TO THE CLIMATE ALLIANCE.

WE WILL NOT BE STOPPED BY DONALD TRUMP.

EACH ONE OF OUR STATES IN OUR OWN WAYS FIGHTING CLIMATE ENERGY ECONOMY.

LAST WEEK WE DEFEATED ANTI- CLIMATE INITIATIVE 62-38.

I WILL BE GOING TO SHARE THE MESSAGE.

THE CALL THAT STATES SHOULD NOT GIVE UP.

WE STILL HAVE STATES, GOVERNORS AND LEGISLATURES READING ON THIS SUBJECT.

IT WILL CONTINUE BECAUSE OF THE ENTREPRENEURSHIP, POLICIES AND AT LEAST 24 STATES.

TO LEAD MORE ENERGY TRANSITION.

>> SO WHEN PEOPLE SAY TO YOU THAT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD, GOVERNOR, BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME AROUND, HE PULLED YOU OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD.

T THINK IT'S AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT YOU ARE DOING ON THE WHAT'S THE NEGATIVE IMPACT OF PULLING OUT OF THE CLIMATE ACCORD BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT?

>> I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT WE HAVE A CLIMATE DENIER IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHICH WILL WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE HAPPEN ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.

I WANT TO SHARE , EVEN IN 2016, IT DID NOT SLOW ME DOWN IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON.

BUILDING CLEAN ENERGY ECONOMIES UNABATED.

OUR OWN INVESTMENT OF STATE DOLLARS.

WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE MAKING PROGRESS ON FIGHTING CLIMATE CHANGE, DONALD TRUMP OR NO.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE CONTINUED INCREASE IN INVESTMENT THAT WE MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE, YES.

BUT WE ARE CAPABLE OF DANCING ON THE STATE LEVEL AS THE THAT WILL CONTINUE.

AS THESE TRAGEDIES UNFOLD, THE COASTS OF THE UNITED STATES ON FIRE.

NATIONAL CAROLINA WAS FLOODED.

THERE WILL BE INCREASING SUPPORT FOR CLIMATE ACTION.

SYNDICATED BY THE LANDSLIDE THAT WE HAD LAST WEEK IN MY STATE.

ALL IS NOT LOST.

THAT'S MY MESSAGE.

JOHN PAUL JONES SAID DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP.

WE CONTINUE THIS BATTLE AND I HOPE THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL JOIN US.

>> IN MAY, THE WASHINGTON POST SAID TRUMP TOLD OIL EXECUTIVES THAT IF THEY RAISED $1 BILLION TO HIS CAMPAIGN, THE ADMINISTRATION WOULD GIVE THEM CARTE BLANCHE TO SHAVE HIS ENVIRONMENTAL AGENDA.

ON A FEDERAL LEVEL, WHAT GUARDRAILS ARE IN PLACE TO PROTECT POLICY AND PREVENT IT FROM BEING SOLD TO THE BIDDER?

PEOPLE ARE ALREADY PANICKED SAYING IT IS THE END OF THE EPA.

YOU REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME.

SO MUCH DEREGULATION IN THE CLIMATE SPHERE NATIONALLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT WE HAVE IS REALITY.

WE ARE BUILDING JOBS ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES INCLUDING IN RED DISTRICTS.

DONALD TRUMP WILL LEARN A LESSON.

WHEN YOU TRY TO KILL JOBS IN A CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS DON'T TAKE KINDLY TO THAT.

HE WILL BE FULL OF BLUSTER AS USUAL, BUT IF HE TRIES TO REMOVE INVESTMENTS IN THE REFLATION REDUCTION ACT, REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WOULD REBEL AGAINST THAT.

THEY ALREADY SAID YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE JOBS OUT OF MY DISTRICT.

ALREADY BUILDING JOBS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

MAKES A LOT OF NOISE, BUT SCANT PROGRESS.

THAT'S GOING TO BE A GOOD THING THAT HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DISMANTLE THE INVESTMENTS OF THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.

MY STATE, LIKE MANY STATES, ARE BUILDING JOBS LIKE CRAZY TO ADVANCED BATTERY MANUFACTURING, AND USE ENERGY.

I THINK HE WILL LARGELY FAIL IN HIS EFFORT TO REDUCE CURRENT LEVELS OF INVESTMENTS.

WILL HE BE AS AGGRESSIVE MOVING FORWARD WITH REGULATORY MEASURES?

NO.

WILL HE TRY TO REPEAL EXISTING MEASURES, YES, BUT WE STILL HAVE A FILIBUSTER AT THE SENATE AVAILABLE TO STOP SENATORIAL SUPPORT FOR THAT EFFORT.

SO THIS IS TO PICK HERSELF UP, DUST OURSELVES OFF AND GET OFF THE FIGHT.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

ALL THE INVESTMENTS MADE ON THIS AND MANY SO-CALLED RED STATES, AS WELL.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT DID NOT RESONATE WITH PEOPLE?

CREATING JOBS.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF JOBS CREATED INCLUDING IN THIS SPHERE UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

WHY DIDN'T THAT RESONATE LAST WEEK?

>> THERE WERE SOME HISTORICAL TRENDS WORKING AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE THIS YEAR.

I DON'T BELIEVE THEY WILL BE REPEATED.

THE SIGNIFICANT INFLATION THAT TOOK PLACE WHICH WAS A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON.

IT WAS COMING DOWN AND UNFORTUNATELY, TRUMP'S POLICIES COULD ACCELERATE IT.

MASS DEPORTATION, A FAILURE TO ENFORCE ANTITRUST LAWS.

ALL OF THOSE WOULD HAVE INFLATIONARY TENDENCIES.

FORTUNATELY, MOST, I MANY OF THE POLICIES WILL NOT BE ENACTED BECAUSE OF REASONS I TALKED ABOUT.

WE HAD AN IMMIGRATION SITUATION THAT WAS VERY TROUBLESOME TO AMERICANS.

UNFORTUNATELY, HE WASN'T SUCCESSFUL IN VETOING THE BIPARTISAN SOLUTION TO THE BORDER CRISIS.

AND THAT POLITICAL GAMBIT AND SELF-INTEREST OF THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TWO THINGS GOING ON THAT SURMOUNTED SOME OF THESE ACTIONS THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE IMPORTANT.

GOING FORWARD I REALLY DO BELIEVE YOU'RE SEEING AN UNSTOPPABLE TRANSITION TO CLEANER ENERGY.

THE INVESTMENT IN REAL ENERGY IN THE LAST YEAR DOUBLED THE INVESTMENT WORLDWIDE IN THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRIES.

SOLAR PANEL FARMS ARE GOING CRAZY.

WINDFARMS ARE STILL INCREASING.

WE HAVE FUSION ENERGY ON THE RISE.

WE NEED TO ACCELERATE IT.

I'M GLAD THAT OUR STATE CAN DO THAT WITH OUR STATE LED INVESTMENTS.

CREATING $3.5 BILLION OF INVESTMENTS IN CLEAN ENERGY FROM MY STATE ALONE.

THIS REVOLUTION IS GOING TO CONTINUE.

IT WILL ACCELERATE EVERY CHANCE WE GET.

>> I WANT TO COME BACK MORE TO THE CLIMATE OBVIOUSLY BUT I DO WANT TO PROBE ON THE ELECTION POSTMORTEM.

FRANKLY, THE WHOLE WORLD AND THE AUDIENCE IS INTERESTED TO HEAR FROM THE LOSING SIDE.

YOU WON IN YOUR STATE.

YOU ARE STEPPING DOWN ANYWAY.

AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEMOCRATS LAST WEEK.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT DEMOCRAT WHO BUCKS THE TREND WAS IN YOUR STATE, THE WASHINGTON REPRESENTATIVE.

ALSO WHEN MICHIGAN, ALYSSA SLOT CAN IN A VERY RED AREA.

THE STORY OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE WAS NOT TOLD RIGHT.

AND THEY MANAGED TO WIN BY TELLING AND KEEPING THEM ON MESSAGE IN THE LOCAL RACES.

AND IT WAS VERY HARD FOUGHT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OTHERS HAVE SAID --THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OR HARRIS OR WHOMEVER WAS TOO CONDESCENDING, TO ELITE FOCUSED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, IF YOU HAD TO SAY, WAS THE MAIN REASON FOR THE DROPPING OFF LAST WEEK?

>> I DON'T LIKE THE POSTMORTEMS.

ALWAYS LOOKING FORWARD, RATHER THAN BACKWARDS.

HAD WE NOT HAD A CRISIS ON THE BORDER, I BELIEVE THE RESULTS WOULD BE OPPOSITE.

IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE HAD TO CHANGE HORSES JUST A HUNDRED DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION AND DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE FOR AN OPEN PRIMARY, THOSE THINGS CONSPIRED AGAINST US.

THEY ARE ONE OFFS.

THEY WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

I AM PROUD TO BE A DEMOCRAT AND WE HAVE SOME GREAT CANDIDATES AS YOU MENTIONED IN OUR STATE.

AND I'M PROUD OF OUR STATE.

SO WHAT I CAN SPEAK OF IS BEING PROUD OF THE EFFORTS WE ARE MAKING.

THIS JOB CREATION AROUND CLEAN ENERGY, IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO WORKING-CLASS AMERICANS, THOSE THAT HAVE GREAT CAREERS THAT MAY NOT REQUIRE A COLLEGE DEGREE, THIS IS PROBABLY THE STRONGEST ARGUMENT TO MAKE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING WIND TURBINES, ELECTRICIANS WHO ARE WIRING FARMS.

THAT'S WHY IN MY STATE, THE ENTIRE WORKING LABOR COMMUNITY EMBRACED OUR ACTION ABOUT THESE POLICIES.

THEY ARE SUCH JOB CREATORS FOR NON-COLLEGE-EDUCATED FOLKS .

IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, GET ON THE CLEAN ENERGY BANDWAGON.

THIS IS A WINNING MESSAGE TO TALK TO THAT COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE.

NEXT WEEK I WILL BE ISSUING AN EXECUTIVE ORDER IN MY STATE, TOO, THAT WILL ELIMINATE THE COLLEGE REQUIREMENT FOR A LOT OF JOBS.

SO WE'VE GOT MESSAGES ONCE WE GET UNDERNEATH THIS CLOUD OF INFLATION.

I BELIEVE WE WILL RISE AGAIN.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT MOST OF THE ANALYSIS HAS BEEN USED A IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

THEY SAY 2016 EVERYBODY THOUGHT WAS AN ABERRATION.

NOW 2024 HAS SOLIDIFIED WHAT 2016 STARTED.

FURTHERMORE, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE LOST THEIR TRADITIONAL WORKING- CLASS VOTERS.

EVEN SOME BLACK VOTERS, LATINO VOTERS.

BASICALLY, THEIR TRADITIONAL CONSTITUENTS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THIS WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN?

AND DO YOU STILL THINK YOU ARE THE PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS?

>> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, YOU ARE DRAGGING ME INTO A POSTMORTEM, WHICH I DON'T LIKE.

BUT BECAUSE I HONOR YOU SO MUCH I WILL TALK ABOUT WHAT I THINK HAPPENED HERE, OKAY?

NUMBER ONE, WHEN YOU SAID YOU WOULD A FIGHT, NOTHING IS SOLID IN POLITICS.

THE TIDE GOES IN, THE TIDE GOES OUT.

DEMOCRATS TOOK IT IN 1994 WHEN EVERYONE THOUGHT NEWT GINGRICH WOULD BE PERMANENT EMPEROR OF UNITED DATES.

I WENT BACK TO CONGRESS, I WAS THROWN OUT OF CONGRESS AND '94.

I'VE BEEN A THREE-TERM, 12-YEAR GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, WHICH HAS BECOME BLUE OVERTIME BECAUSE OF THE POLICIES THAT WE HAVE EMBRACED.

SO WE WILL BE BACK.

THAT IS THE NATURE THAT IT ABSENT FLOWS, BUT THIS ISSUE ABOUT SOMEHOW LOSING THE WORKING CLASS, I DO NOT BUY THAT.

AND I WILL TELL YOU WHY.

LOOK, WE DID HAVE LOSSES, BUT WORKING-CLASS, IT WAS UP AND DOWN THE INCOME LEVEL.

SUBURBAN AND RURAL.

IN MY ASSESSMENT, IT'S LARGELY INFLATION THAT WE SUFFERED.

INTERESTING BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, INCUMBENT PARTIES BOTH FROM THE LEFT AND RIGHT LOST INTERNATIONALLY BECAUSE OF INFLATION THAT WAS CAUSED BY THE COVID EPIDEMIC LARGELY.

THAT WAS A ONE OFF.

WE HOPE WE WILL NOT SEE ANOTHER COVID.

BUT OUR MESSAGE OF JOB CREATION AROUND CLEAN ENERGY, OUR MESSAGE OF INCREASED HEALTHCARE OUR MESSAGE OF RESPECTING THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN, OUR MESSAGE OF OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL, I BELIEVE WILL RISE AGAIN.

I BELIEVE THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I'VE SEEN IT IN MY LIFETIME AND I LOOK FORWARD TO IT.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO YOU BEING DUBBED THE GREENEST GOVERNOR.

YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU HAD WON IN THIS ELECTION ON LOCAL ACTION.

YOUR STATE UPHELD CARBON TAX.

WASHINGTON STATE VOTERS UPHELD THE TAX ON EMISSIONS .

IT WOULD HAVE CANCELED THE TAX LAW.

THAT PROPOSAL WAS DEFEATED BY AN OVERWHELMING MARGIN.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

I KNOW YOU HAVE CONDITIONED YOUR STATE TO UNDERSTAND THAT ACTUALLY MITIGATING THE CLIMATE IS NOT JUST GOOD FOR THEIR HEALTH, BUT GOOD FOR THEIR POCKETBOOKS, AS WELL.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR HOW YOU WON THAT?

>> FIRST OFF, THIS IS A CAP AND INVEST PROGRAM THAT CHARGES POLLUTERS TO POLLUTE.

IT TAKES THE MONIES RECYCLES IT BACK TO WASHINGTONIANS FOR WAYS TO HELP THEM PREVENT CARBON EMISSIONS AND DEAL WITH TO CHANGE.

FOR EV'S, PUMPS, FREE BUS RIDES AND ISSUES TO PROTECT THEIR HEALTH.

THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

WASHINGTONIANS REJECTED IT.

BY THE WAY, IN A TIDAL WAVE, A SYNONYMY, AN AVALANCHE OF THIS, LARGELY BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN AWAY THE BENEFITS THAT WASHINGTONIANS ARE ENJOYING.

THEY WOULD NOT LIKE THAT IT WOULD REMOVE THE ABILITY TO GET HEAT PUMPS FOR LOWER INCOME PEOPLE.

THEY DON'T LIKE THAT IT WOULD CANCEL FREE BUS RIDES FOR EVERYONE UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

THEY ARE NOT HAPPY THAT IT WOULD CANCEL THE ABILITY FOR SCHOOLS TO BUY AIR FILTRATION SYSTEMS.

SO KIDS CAN BREATHE WHEN WE HAVE FOREST FIRE SMOKE.

THIS TOOK AWAY THE BENEFITS THAT WE HAVE FOUND THAT CAN HELP WASHINGTONIANS FIGHT CLIMATE CHANGE AND HELP PEOPLE DEAL WITH IT WHEN THE INEVITABLE IS OCCURRING.

SO IT'S OUT OF HAND.

AND I'M PROUD OF MY STATE.

MY STATE IS A VERY SCIENTIFICALLY LITERATE STATE.

IT GOT A DENIER --IT'S NOT A CLIMATE A DENIER STATE.

WE HAVE SEEN TWO WHOLE TOWNS BURNED DOWN WHILE I'VE BEEN GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON.

MASSIVE FLOODS.

WE ARE LOSING 40% OF OUR LIFE HERE.

WE GET IT IN WASHINGTON BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND SCIENCE.

I THINK THAT WILL SPREAD ULTIMATELY, SO GOOD NEWS IS ON THE WAY.

>> SO AS MENTIONED, THIS IS YOUR LAST TERM.

YOUR HANDING OVER TO A DEMOCRAT.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF YOUR LEGACY IS EXACTLY THAT.

THE POWER OF THE LOCAL, CITY, STATE GOVERNMENT TO AFFECT AND HANG ONTO THESE VITAL ISSUES, WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT IN CHARGE DOES OR DOES NOT DO?

>> WELL, MY LEGACY IS NOT PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT.

I'LL BE FORGOTTEN IN ABOUT 72 HOURS.

BUT THE LEGACY OF 24 GOVERNORS.

JERRY BROWN AND I, WE ESTABLISHED THE CLIMATE ALLIANCE SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHEN WE SAW WHAT TRUMP WAS GOING TO DO.

WE HAVE 24 STATES IN THIS ALLIANCE AND IT'S A LEGACY FOR OTHERS GOVERNORS OF GREAT CLEAN ENERGY AND JOB CREATION.

WE NOW REPRESENT 60% OF THE U.S. ECONOMY AND THAT 60% IS MOVING FORWARD ON THE ECONOMY.

ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THE LEGACY.

I'M NOT ALONE IN THAT.

THAT EFFORT IS GOING TO CONTINUE AND I'M VERY HAPPY ABOUT IT.

>> GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

CONGRATULATIONS AND THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU'VE DONE FOR THE PEOPLE OF YOUR STATE AND THE EXAMPLE FOR YOUR COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.

THANKS.

>> NEXT, BEWARE OF NARRATIVE AND FORM.

THAT'S THE ALFONSO CUARON SERIES DISCLAIMER.

IT'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLER EXPLORING THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF A POSTHUMOUS NOVEL, DETAILING HOW THEY CELEBRATED JOURNALIST PLAYED BY CATE BLANCHETT APPARENTLY SEDUCED A TEENAGE BOY ON HOLIDAY BEFORE WATCHING HIM DROWN.

>> YOU HAVE CONCEALED PARTS OF YOURSELF FROM THE WORLD.

>> A BEACON OF TRUTH.

SOMETHING THAT INSPIRES ME EVERY DAY.

>> YOU KEEP EVERYONE IN THE DARK TO MAINTAIN A BALANCE.

AND YOU THINK YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED.

>> NOW THAT THE FINAL EPISODE HAS DROPPED, WE CAN REVEAL THAT NONE OF THAT WAS TRUE.

HERE IS PART TWO OF MY CONVERSATION WITH ALFONSO CUARON AND BLANCHET WHO SHARED THEIR THOUGHTS ON THE ENDING.

IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE DISCLAIMER AND DON'T LIKE SPOILERS, WATCH THIS INTERVIEW HAVE FINISHED THE WATCH.

>> WELCOME BACK.

WHEN YOU READ THE NOVEL, WERE YOU AS SHOCKED OR MOVED ABOUT THE ENDING?

>> MY FIRST INTERFACE WITH THE STORY WAS THE SCRIPT.

I HAD NOT READ THE NOVEL.

BUT YES.

I THINK I MADE THE SAME SET OF JUDGMENTS ABOUT THE CHARACTER AND ALL THE CHARACTERS AS THE AUDIENCE DID.

I DIDN'T SEE IT COMING, BUT AS I READ SORT OF THE LAST FEW CHAPTERS, I THOUGHT THAT'S NOT WHERE IT'S GOING, IS IT?

I COULDN'T HAVE MISSED THAT, COULD I?

IT'S LIKE I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW THAT I HAD MADE THE JUDGMENT.

I DID NOT WANT TO LOOK AT THE JUDGMENT.

I FELT QUITE A BIT OF SHAME ACTUALLY BY THE END.

>> A VERY SIMILAR EXPERIENCE WHEN I READ THE NOVEL.

BECAUSE UNTIL THAT MOMENT, YOU KNOW, I WAS ENTERTAINED, I WAS FOLLOWING IT THROUGH.

I JUMPED ONTO THE WAGON OF OKAY, YEAH, LET'S HATE THIS WOMAN.

AND THEN WHEN THAT HAPPENED, I ACTUALLY DIDN'T FINISH READING THE WHOLE SCENE.

WHEN I PUT THE BOOK DOWN .

AND I HAD TO --YEAH, I FEEL VERY STRANGE ABOUT HAVING ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN.

IT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING MOMENT.

AT THE MOMENT IN WHICH THAT MOMENT IS WHEN IT TRIGGERED IN ME THIS WHOLE IDEA OF THE NARRATIVES .

I WAS CREATING MY OWN NARRATIVE BASED UPON MY JUDGMENT.

>> ALSO ROUTE UNTIL YOU GOT TO THE LAST REVEAL.

>> UNTIL THE REVEAL.

THEN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE ABOUT THE AUDIENCE.

ABOUT THE AUDIENCE'S JUDGMENT, WHAT IS FILLING IN THE BLANKS.

NOT EVEN THE BLANKS.

IT'S WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO SEE OR IGNORE.

>> DID YOU FEEL THAT THE STRUCTURE WAS WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO YOUR FIRST TV, YOUR FIRST MULTIPART, MULTI-CHAPTER, AS YOU CALL IT?

THAT'S WHAT IT LENDS ITSELF TO.

>> MADE SENSE FOR ME IN THAT MOMENT.

SO I FINISHED READING THAT, AND THEN NOW, IT WAS CLEAR THAT WE WERE GOING TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT, THAT WE HAD TO TREAD VERY CAREFULLY.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT KATE WAS VERY ADAMANT FROM THE BEGINNING.

BECAUSE KATE WAS INVOLVED IN ENDLESS REWRITES FROM THAT MOMENT ON.

>> EXECUTIVE PRODUCER TITLE.

>> YES.

I THINK I WAS MORE A SOUNDING BOARD.

A DEEP NIGHT OF THE SOUL.

LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS.

NOW I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE MAN.

YOUR HUSBAND PLAYED BY SASHA BARON COHEN WHO HAS BECOME SO ANGRY, HE HAS CANCELED YOU AS WELL.

YOUR SON HAS PRACTICALLY CANCELED YOU BECAUSE OF WHAT THE FATHER OF THE UNDEAD BOY PLAYED BY KEVIN KLINE, INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLY WELL.

HE HAS TAKEN THIS WHOLE THING AND MADE IT REVENGE TO TRY TO PUNISH YOUR CHARACTER FOR THE DEATH OF THEIR SON.

>> SOMETHING WAS INTERESTING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID.

SASHA, WHO PLAYS MY CHARACTERS HUSBAND.

THE CANCELLATION OF HER, THE ERADICATION OF HER FROM HIS LIFE BECAUSE OF WHAT HE FELT SHE HAS DONE, WHICH SHE HAS NOT, WAS NOT.

IT HAS GIVEN HIM LICENSED TO SPEAK TO THE WORST SIDE OF HIMSELF.

HIS FEARS, HIS INSECURITIES, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT LAY DORMANT IN A MARRIAGE OF MANY, MANY YEARS AND DECADES.

THAT HE CAN NOW FEEL ENTITLED TO ACT AND BEHAVE AND OWN IT AND CELEBRATE IN A WAY.

I THINK THAT WHAT YOU PROJECT ON ANOTHER PERSON, WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE OFTEN REVEALS FAR MORE ABOUT YOURSELF THAN IT DOES ANOTHER PERSON.

WHAT'S INTERESTING, AND I FOUND CONFRONTING IN THE SERIES IS THAT I TOTALLY WENT INTO AND DID NOT LOOK AT THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS AND ANY OTHER WAY THAN ON THE SURFACE.

SO WHAT WAS WHAT WE ALL ASSUMED WAS PLEASURE WAS IN FACT AN ACT OF VIOLENCE.

WHAT I WAS REALLY, REALLY CONFRONTED BY AND FOUND DIFFICULT TO LIVE WITH WAS THE OVERWHELMING DEFINITION THAT THE SILENCE CAN DO TO THE PERSON HAS LIVED THROUGH ABUSE OR TRAUMA.

IN FACT, IF ONE IS NOT BELIEVED, IT CAN BE AS HARROWING AS THE INITIAL TRAUMA, WHEN YOU ARE NOT BELIEVED BY SOMEONE WHO YOU HAVE FINALLY TRIED TO CONFIDE IN.

>> YOU SAY IN THE FILM TO YOUR HUSBAND PLAYED BY SASHA BARON COHEN, AND I'M PARAPHRASING, BECAUSE HE HUGS YOU.

HE SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME?

YOU SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF YOU FEEL MORE SYMPATHY TOWARDS ME, OR BETTER TOWARDS ME BECAUSE I HAD BEEN RAPED THEN IF I HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A YOUNGER MAN.

YOU FIND THAT EASIER TO DEAL WITH.

I FIND THAT REALLY REVEALING AND REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

>> ALL OF KATE'S PERFORMANCE WAS LEADING TO THAT.

SHE WAS VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW SHE WAS GOING TO FEEL ABOUT THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE CHARACTER THROUGHOUT THE SHOW, IN WHICH SHE IS ACTUALLY ALL THE TIME TRYING TO SPEAK.

SHE IS TRYING TO ARTICULATE.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IT WAS --AS WE WERE GOING THROUGH THE WHOLE THING, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AT THE END, YOU NEVER LOST THE COMPASS THAT WAS GUIDING EVERYTHING.

AND IT'S WHAT EVERYTHING WAS ABOUT.

SO THE WAY WHICH YOU ARE TRYING TO ARTICULATE.

AND THERE IS SO MUCH PAIN THAT IT CANNOT COME THROUGH.

LITTLE USE, UNTIL THERE IS A MOMENT IN WHICH SHE SPEAKS AS SHE TELLS STEPHEN, BECAUSE YOU FORCE ME TO SPEAK.

>> INTERESTING, PLAYED BY THE UNDEAD BOY.

>> DELIVERED THE BOOK.

BECAUSE IN A WAY, IT'S A VERY STRANGE, SURREAL SCENE.

HER SON IS IN HOSPITAL ON LIFE SUPPORT, THAT SHE WOULD GO AND SPEND THE TIME TO TELL HER STORY.

I THINK IT'S ABOUT NEEDING TO GET IT ALL OUT.

EVERYONE SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU SPEAK UP BEFORE?

AND KEVIN KLINE SAYS IN THE SCENE WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL MY WIFE WHEN YOU SAW HER THEN?

AND IT'S A THEME ABOUT ABUSE, THAT YOU PROCESS IT AND YOU THINK WELL, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE RAGE THERE?

THAT'S A BIG QUESTION FOR ME.

THE PERPETRATOR OF THE ABUSE DIED.

SO THERE WAS NO OUTLET FOR THAT RAGE.

WHAT WAS THE POINT IN UNEARTHING IT?

I CAN SEE THAT THIS WOMAN HAS CANCER AND IF I TELL HER THAT HER DEAD SON WAS A RAPIST, WAS THAT ABOUT ME OR WAS THAT ABOUT HER?

IT'S A DEEPLY EMPATHETIC MOMENT BETWEEN TWO WOMEN , BUT YOU THINK WHAT IS THIS WOMAN RUNNING FROM?

THIS OR WOMAN WITH CANCER?

IT MAKES YOU REFRAME EVERYTHING.

THAT'S THE THING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO SURVIVE ABUSE, OF THE MANY THINGS.

FORTUNATELY, I'M NOT ONE OF THEM.

SEE, YOU DON'T REALIZE HOW HEAVY THE BURDEN IS OF THE SILENCE.

YOU THINK YOU ARE MOVING ALONG LIFE, INCORPORATED.

THE SAME WAY WE INCORPORATE GRIEF.

ONCE THE BURDEN BEGINS TO LEFT, THE RAGE WHERE YOU RELIVE THOSE MOMENTS.

AND FINALLY, THAT I'M GOING TO TELL THE STORY TO SOMEONE WHO I REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE TELLING IT TO.

I WISH I COULD HAVE TOLD MY HUSBAND OR MY THERAPIST.

BUT I'VE NOT UNLOCKED IT UNTIL NOW.

>> IN A WAY, YOU AS THE DIRECTOR AND AS THE MAIL IN THE ORGANIZATION OF THE STORY, YOU ARE ALSO SHINING A LIGHT ON THE REAL TROUBLE FOR WOMEN ALL OVER THE WORLD ON BEING ABLE TO TELL THE TRUTH IN THIS CASE.

AND YOU ARE A VEHICLE.

DO YOU EVER THINK OF THAT?

>> NO, BECAUSE IN THAT FRONT, I PUT MYSELF, TO BE HONEST, I PUT MYSELF IN THE HANDS OF KATE.

>> BUT IT'S ALSO NOT JUST ABOUT THAT ABUSE.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE.

AND THIS LACK OF COLLECTIVE EMPATHY THAT WE HAVE FOR THE COMPLEXITY OF THE TRUTH.

PERSPECTIVES ARE ALIVE IN MAKING THAT.

AND PART OF THAT IS THE RAPE, BUT IT IS ALSO ABOUT THE WAY THAT WE CONSUME INFORMATION, I THINK.

>> DEFINITELY, I THINK THAT THE DEEPEST CONFRONTATION IS ABOUT THAT MOMENT, THAT SCENE.

BUT I THINK THAT THE TROUBLING THING IS WHAT HAPPENED TO ME WHEN I READ THE BOOK FOR THE FIRST TIME IS THAT NOT UNLIKE THE CHARACTERS DURING THE SHOW, THAT ALL OF THESE ARE REVEALING THEIR OWN INSECURITIES, THEIR OWN BIASES AND HIDDEN ANGER'S, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO ME WHEN I READ THE BOOK.

IT WAS WRITTEN BY MY JUDGMENT.

BECAUSE I WAS JUST SEEING AT THE END WHAT IT UNLEASHED.

>> WHAT WERE YOU ABOUT TO SAY?

YOU HAD ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY IT'S WHAT ALSO HAPPENS TO CATHERINE, BUT FOR ME, ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS IS THE PHOTOGRAPH OF KEVIN'S CHARACTER SEES IN THE FIRE, BECAUSE OF THE HEART OF THE STORY.

TWO YOUNG BOYS WITH VERY DIFFERENT FATES.

AND CODY, ONE OF THE GREAT YOUNG ACTORS.

PLAYING HIS MOTHER AGAIN.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS, AND HIS PERFORMANCE IS IS SO BEAUTIFUL IN DISCLAIMER.

BUT WHAT WE SEE THAT HE SAW AS I THINK FOR ME ONE OF THE MOST PAINFUL THINGS IS APPARENT.

PARTICULARLY WHEN MY CHARACTER, AND HIS MOTHER HAS BEEN TRYING TO PROTECT HIM FROM TRAUMA.

>> I WONDER HOW YOU BOTH HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN AFFECTED BY THAT STORY.

I GET A LITTLE BIT OF THIS FROM TALKING TO YOU.

HOW DID IT AFFECT YOU?

IT'S A LONG SHOOT.

IT LIKE YOU DID THIS A COUPLE OF MONTHS AND MOVED RIGHT TO SOMETHING ELSE.

ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENT THINGS NOW?

ARE YOU DOING SOMETHING LATER?

SOMETHING LESS TRAUMATIC?

>> I SPEAK FOR MYSELF, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT KATE'S JOURNEY WAS SO DIFFERENT.

IT WAS A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE.

>> I MEAN, WE'VE GOT CREATIVE PTSD.

>> IT WAS TOUGH.

WORKING WITH THE STORY FOR A LONG TIME.

AND WHATEVER YOU ARE DOING, YOU'RE DRIVING IT TO THE DESTINATION AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE DESTINATION IS.

YOU CANNOT BE IN AVOIDANCE.

THAT WHOLE THING CONTAINS THE EXPERIENCE.

I WOULD BE LYING IF I WAS SAYING THAT IT WAS A JOYOUS, JOYFUL JOURNEY.

>> IT WAS REALLY PROFOUND AND REALLY IMPORTANT.

INCREDIBLE WATCH.

>> I THINK I HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH AN ENORMOUS FEELING OF HOW PRIVILEGED I AM TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK, TO EXPRESS MYSELF.

AND TO NOT HAVE MY VOICE SILENCED, OR TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE I HAVE ACCESS TO AVENUES, GROUPS OF PEOPLE, AND COMMUNITIES THAT I CAN PROCESS THINGS PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY.

AND I FELT THAT PRIVILEGE VERY PROFOUNDLY.

>> ACTOR KATE BLANCHET AND TO ALFONSO CUARON ON THE SERIES DISCLAIMER, WHICH YOU CAN WATCH ON APPLE TV PLUS RIGHT NOW.

PLAY A VITAL ROLE IN THE U.S. ELECTION.

WHILE BLACK WOMEN TURNED OUT FOR DEMOCRATS IN FOREST FOR THE ELECTION, THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN BANKS MISTAKENLY ON ALL WOMEN DOING SO.

HOW THEY MISSED A HUGE OPPORTUNITY TO FIGHT FOR YOUNG MALE VOTES.

RICHARD REEVES IS PRESIDENT OF THE INSTITUTE FOR BOYS AND MEN AND HE JOINS US NOW TO DISCUSS WHY GEN Z MAN SWUNG TO TRUMP IN RECORD NUMBERS.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE CHANGING PRESSURES ON BOYS AND MEN FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW AND IT REALLY PLAYED OUT DURING THE SELECTION IN A SURPRISING WAY.

MEN SUPPORTED FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP BY A 13 POINT MARGIN.

UP FROM EIGHT IN 2020.

THROUGHOUT THE DEMOGRAPHICS, ESPECIALLY YOUNG MEN SEEMED TO TILT SO MUCH MORE TO THE PRESIDENT.

HOW DID WE SEE THIS COMING?

YOUNG MEN WERE MOVING VERY STRONGLY TO THE REPUBLICAN CAMP.

WHAT WE DID NOT EXPECT WAS THAT YOUNG WOMEN WOULD ALSO MOVE AWAY.

SO THE GENDER GAP ACTUALLY DID NOT CHANGE VERY MUCH, BUT THE REASON IS BECAUSE WHILE YOUNG MEN MOVED TO THE RIGHT, SO DID YOUNG WOMEN.

OF COURSE, THE GENDER GAP REMAINED.

ANY STORY ABOUT THE SELECTION HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT IT WAS NOT JUST THE YOUNG MEN.

PARTICULARLY BECAUSE WE HAD A FEMALE CANDIDATE ON THE DEMOCRAT SIDE UNLESS SUCH A PERFORMATIVE MASCULINITY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, THAT MEN, ESPECIALLY YOUNG MEN, WILL BE FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO SEXISM, BACKLASH OR MISOGYNY.

I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE A STORY OF NEGLECT FAN OF SEXISM.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT MANY MEN FEEL THEY HAVE WITH EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION, JUST REALLY WERE NOT BEING TALKED ABOUT, REFLECTED ON THE DEMOCRAT SIDE.

REPUBLICAN SIDE.

CERTAINLY TRUE THAT MANY YOUNG MEN FELT MORE WELCOMED, MORE SEEN, MORE HEARD ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

SOMETIMES POLITICS BOILS DOWN TO WHO LIKES ME?

WHO LIKES THE STUFF I LIKE?

THE CULTURAL ELEMENT THAT WILL MOVE THE ELECTION.

THE REPUBLICANS PUT OUT A WELCOME MAT FOR YOUNG MEN.

THEY ALSO MET YOUNG MEN WHERE THEY WERE.

LITERALLY IN THE CASE OF THE JOE ROGAN PODCAST AND OTHERS, BUT ALSO JUST MET THEM IN TERMS OF SAYING TO THEM THAT WE GET IT.

YOU ARE STRUGGLING RIGHT NOW.

WHERE THAT LEADS IN TERMS OF POLICY IS ANOTHER MATTER.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT WELCOME THAT IDEA.

WHERE THE PRESIDENT WENT WAS UNCHARTED TERRITORY IN TERMS OF PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNING.

HE STOPPED BY A LOT OF PODCASTS AND TALKED TO INFLUENCERS, SO TO SPEAK, WHO WERE KIND OF IN THE SPHERES WHERE YOUNG MEN ARE TODAY.

WHETHER THAT IS ON TWITCH CHANNELS, WATCHING VIDEO GAMES, PLAYING VIDEO GAMES, POLITICAL RALLIES ON CAMPUSES.

>> THAT'S THE COMMUNICATIONS OF SHIFTS THAT WE REALLY NEED TO CATCH UP WITH.

ESPECIALLY IF THE GOAL IS TO REACH YOUNG MEN.

IF THE GOAL IS TO REACH YOUNG MEN, YOU HAVE TO GO WHERE YOUNG MEN ARE AND THAT IS ON THESE PODCASTS.

THESE VERY LONG FORMS OF FREEWHEELING PODCASTS.

THREE HOURS WITH TRUMP ON JOE ROGAN.

THREE HOURS WITH J.D.

VANCE.

IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD IN TERMS OF ELECTION STRATEGY AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGY.

I THINK THE DEMOCRATS DID NOT FOLLOW THAT STRATEGY, BUT IT'S NOT JUST BECAUSE --OF THAT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT THERE WERE NUMBERS THERE.

IT'S NOT THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT IS WHERE YOUNG MEN WERE.

IT'S BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS BELIEVED THAT THEY DID NOT NEED THE VOTES OF YOUNG MEN, BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO GET SUFFICIENT VOTES AMONG YOUNG WOMEN AND WOMEN GENERALLY.

SO THE REASON THAT THE DEMOCRATS DID NOT WIN THE BATTLE FOR YOUNG MEN'S VOTES IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FIGHT FOR THEM.

THEY DID NOT REALLY CONTEST FOR THEM.

THERE WAS NO STRONG POLICY OUTREACH WERE COMMUNICATION STRATEGY.

SO THEY ESSENTIALLY CEDED BACKGROUND THINKING THEY DID NOT NEED IT, WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A FATAL MISCALCULATION.

>> WHAT WERE THE STRUGGLES TO TAP INTO, WHAT WERE THE ISSUES ANIMATING MEN, YOUNG MEN THAT PRESIDENT ELECT TRUMP SEEMED TO HEAR, CARE ABOUT OR IN SOME WAY CONNECT WITH?

>> I THINK ON SOME LEVEL, IT'S INCREDIBLY BASIC.

IT'S WE SEE YOU, WE LIKE YOU, WE DON'T HATE YOU, THE OTHER SIDE HATES YOU.

WE ARE NEVER GOING TO LECTURE YOU ABOUT TOSCA >> SALINITY.

WE ARE NEVER GOING TO SAY THAT YOU WE WILL SIMPLY SAY THAT WE LIKE YOU AND WE LIKE THE THINGS YOU LIKE.

WE WILL APPROACH THE BETTER SENSE OF HUMOR AROUND SOME OF THIS STUFF, GO TO UCLA --UFC FIGHTS, ET CETERA.

AND THAT IS NOT A POLICY TO TACKLE THE FACT THAT THE SUICIDE RATE AMONG MEN UNDER 30 HAS RISEN BY MORE THAN 40% SINCE 2010.

THAT'S NOT A POLICY STRATEGY FOR DEALING WITH THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BIGGER GAPS, GENDER GAPS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES TODAY THAN WE DID IN THE 70s, THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE FACT THAT WORKING-CLASS MEN HAVE NOT HAD A PAY RISE FOR DECADES.

SO THE SUBSTANCE IS NOT THERE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

THE IRONY IS THAT THERE IS MORE POLICY SUBSTANCE ALREADY ON THE DEMOCRATS SIDE.

THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL MOSTLY WORKING-CLASS MEN.

HISPANIC , BLACK AND WHITE WORKING-CLASS MEN.

YOU CANNOT FIND A SINGLE DEMOCRAT WHO WOULD HAVE SAID THAT BECAUSE THEY FALSELY ASSUMED THAT TALKING ABOUT THE THE BOYS AND MEN, ACKNOWLEDGING THE VERY FACT OF THE PROBLEMS WOULD UNDERMINE THEIR APPEAL TO WOMEN.

THAT WAS A BIG MISTAKE.

IT WAS A ZERO-SUM THINKING.

AS A RESULT, THEY NOT ONLY LOST AMONG MEN, BUT WOMEN.

THE DEMOCRATS COMING OUT OF THE SELECTION HAS TO BE DON'T MOVE TOO QUICKLY TO THE EXPLANATION OF SEXISM.

CONSIDER THIS IS THE EFFECT OF A LONG RUN NEGLECT ON THE POLICY FRONT OF THE ISSUES OF BOYS AND MEN.

>> WE HAVE SEEN THE LEVELS OF SUPPORT FOR YOUNG MAN OVERALLS A RELATIVELY STEADY AMONG MALE VOTERS.

AS I LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS, YOU KNOW, 60% OF WHITE MALE VOTERS VOTED FOR HIM THIS TIME, VERSUS 62% IN 2016.

IT'S FASCINATING WHEN YOU START BREAKING DOWN THE SUPPORT AMONG WHAT HAPPENED WITH BOTH BLACK MALE VOTERS AS WELL AS LATINO MALE VOTERS.

HE WENT FROM 19 TO 21 PERCENT SUPPORT FOR BLACK MALE VOTERS, WHICH WAS BETTER THAN LAST TIME BUT 30 TO 65%.

WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR THAT?

>> THE FIRST THING TO SAY OF COURSE IS THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WERE NOT VOTING ON THE GROUNDS OF THEIR GENDER.

OR OF THEIR RACE.

THIS WAS AN ELECTION DOMINATED BY ECONOMIC CONCERNS.

NONETHELESS, THE LOSS OF SUPPORT AMONG BLACK MALE VOTERS, AS YOU POINT OUT ESPECIALLY HISPANIC MALE VOTERS, SHOULD I THINK BE A SIGN THAT UNLESS THERE IS A STRONG ECONOMIC AGENDA THAT'S CRAFTED IN A WAY SPECIFICALLY TO MEN AS WELL AS TO WOMEN THAT THE DEMOCRATS WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE GROUND AMONG THEIR CONSTITUENCY.

THIS IS A PLACE WHERE CLASS, GENDER AND RACE ARE ALL OVERLAPPING WITH EACH OTHER.

YOU'RE SEEING A NUMBER OF MEN, ESPECIALLY MEN BUT HISPANIC WOMEN, AS WELL ALSO SWUNG PRETTY STRONGLY TOWARDS DONALD TRUMP.

ALTHOUGH SUPPORTING OVERALL KAMALA HARRIS.

NOT ONLY DO YOU NEED AN ECONOMIC MESSAGE AND TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE ECONOMY, BUT YOU NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT IT IN A WAY THAT'S GOING TO LAND WITH MEN.

TO THE EXTENT THAT THERE WAS A POLICY DISCUSSION ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE AROUND MANUFACTURING, SOME SKEPTICISM PERHAPS AROUND HIGHER EDUCATION.

SOME OF THAT SEEMED TO HAVE LANDED WITH MEN PARTICULARLY.

>> I THINK THERE ARE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE SURPRISED THAT AS A COLLECTIVE SOCIETY, WE USE TO UPHOLD THE ROLE OF A PERSON TO THE PRESIDENT, ROLE MODEL FOR THE COUNTRY, SOMEONE WE WANT REPRESENTING US ON THE WORLD STAGE.

IN THE CASE OF YOUNG MEN AND BOYS, WE SAW A PRESIDENT, WE HAVE A PRESIDENT HAS BEEN FOUND LIABLE OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

HE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF THAT BY SEVERAL WOMEN IN HIS LIFE.

AND I WONDER HOW WERE MEN, YOUNG MEN ABLE TO SET THOSE THINGS ASIDE?

>> FOR ONE THING, AS WE SET A MOMENT EARLIER, THE MOTIVATING FACTORS FOR A LOT OF MEN WERE AROUND THE ECONOMY, AND SO YOU'VE HEARD A LOT OF FOCUS GROUPS.

MEN WOULD BE SAYING LOOK I DON'T LIKE HIM PARTICULARLY.

BUT I WANT THE ECONOMY HE DELIVERED FOR ME.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF LOWER TAXES, JOBS, MANUFACTURING COMING BACK.

SO IT'S PERFECTLY POSSIBLE THAT MANY OF THESE MEN VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP NOT BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE ISSUES JUST RAISED BUT TO SOME EXTENT DESPITE THEM.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO GET YOUR HEAD AROUND.

PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO HOLD THEIR CONTRADICTORY IDEAS ABOUT A CANDIDATE.

I DON'T LIKE CERTAIN ASPECTS OF BETTER OFF.

AND I THINK HE SEES ME A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN SOME OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES DO.

BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A VACUUM HERE, PARTICULARLY ON CENTERLEFT AROUND A WILLINGNESS TO JUST ACCEPT THAT THERE IS A POSITIVE NOTION OF MASCULINITY AND THE ROLE OF MEN.

ON SOME LEVEL, A LOT OF THESE YOUNG MEN ESPECIALLY ARE NOT SURE WHAT THE MESSAGE IS TO THEM ABOUT WHETHER WE LIKE THEM, WHETHER WE NEED THEM AND WHAT THEIR ROLE IN SOCIETY IS GOING TO BE.

WHATEVER YOU THINK OF THE WAY IN WHICH REPUBLICANS TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF MEN, THE ROLE OF MEN AND THE SIGNALS THEY HAD ABOUT BEING FRIENDLY TO MEN, THE DANGER IS THAT IT WILL BE SILENCE.

PEOPLE CAN SAY HOW COULD MEN BE ATTRACTED TO THAT ROLE MODEL OF MASCULINITY WHEN THERE WAS NOT REALLY AN ALTERNATIVE PUT IN FRONT OF THEM?

SO AGAIN, IT'S IN THE FINAL STAGES OF THE CAMPAIGN WHERE YOUNG MEN WERE BEING URGED TO VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS IF THEY LOVE THE WOMEN IN THEIR LIVES.

AND THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE OTHER PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES BUT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY ASKING MEN TO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS STAND FOR WOMEN, THAT'S A FLAWED POLITICAL STRATEGY AGAIN.

>> WHAT WAS THE ROLE OF TIM WALZ AS A POTENTIAL ROLE MODEL FOR MASCULINITY?

WAS THAT TOO LATE, DID THAT NOT LAND?

>> OF COURSE, EVERYTHING WAS DONE PRETTY LATE.

THAT'S A BROAD QUESTION FOR THE CAMPAIGN.

BUT I'LL SAY I WAS EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED NOT TO SEE BETTER USE BEING MADE OF TIM WALZ.

IN PARTICULARLY HIS BIOGRAPHY.

HE WAS THE FIRST CAREER PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER TO RUN FOR SUCH HIGHER OFFICE.

NOT ONLY THAT, A COACH.

YOU HAD IS ON STUDENTS COMING ORIENTED MASCULINITY THAT HE HAD DEMONSTRATED.

IF THERE WAS ANY CANDIDATE WHO COULD HAVE PLAUSIBLY SET OUT A POSITIVE VISION FOR THE ROLE OF MEN IN SOCIETY FOR A CAMPAIGN TO INCREASE THE SHARE OF MALE TEACHERS, TO REALLY TACKLE THIS MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS THAT WE SEE PLAYING OUT AMONG YOUNG MEN.

IT'S HARD TO THINK OF A BETTER TV AT LEAST THEN THE ONE OF TIM WALZ.

IT WAS EASY TO IMAGINE HIM GIVING POWERFUL SPEECHES, RUNNING STRONG ADVERTISING CAMPAIGNS DIRECTLY TARGETED AT YOUNG MEN WITH AN EMPATHETIC, RESPECTFUL, POLICY-BASED MESSAGE TO THOSE YOUNG MEN.

NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.

AMONG THE MANY MISSED OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE SAW ON THE DEMOCRAT SIDE OF THE CAMPAIGN, THE FAILURE TO SEND TIM WALZ OUT BACKED BY STRONG POLICY AGENDA TO ONE OF THE VOTES OF YOUNG MEN HURT THEM.

>> WAS THERE BACKLASH IN TERMS OF HOW THE DEMOCRATS WERE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS?

THAT THAT WOULD BE THE THING THAT ANIMATES WOMEN TO THE POLLS?

AHEAD OF THE CAMPAIGN, THERE WAS A FOCUS ON TRYING TO GET MEN ENGAGED IN THAT ISSUE JUST AS MUCH.

I WONDER WHAT WAS, WHAT WERE YOUNG MEN AND BOYS HEARING THROUGHOUT THE COUPLE OF MONTHS THAT KAMALA HARRIS WAS CAMPAIGNING ON THAT ISSUE?

>> THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT PARTICULARLY YOUNG MEN HAVE VERY SIMILAR ABUSE --OF VIEWS ON ABORTION AS YOUNG WOMEN.

AND THEY HAD THE BEST POSITION ON ABORTION.

THAT WAS NOT REALLY SALIENT FOR THOSE YOUNG MEN.

IT'S NOT WHAT THEY WERE VOTING ON.

THAT WAS TRUE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, TOO.

TO HAVE LOST SO MUCH GROUND ON YOUNG WOMEN.

SOMETHING THAT I REALLY THINK COMPLICATES THE STORY FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

DEFINITELY A BACKLASH.

YOU WILL STRUGGLE TO FIND ANY EVIDENCE PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNG MEN THAT THEY WERE SOMEHOW REACTING AGAINST THIS IDEA THAT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS FOR WOMEN WERE THREATENING TO THEM.

I THINK THAT IS A MESS.

IT IS SIMPLY THAT ABORTION WAS NOT SUCH A BIG ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION AS THE DEMOCRATS HAD HOPED IT WOULD BE.

AND IT DEFINITELY WAS NOT THAT BIG OF AN ISSUE FOR THE MAN AND YOUNG MEN.

IT'S NOT AS IF THEY HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT VIEW ABOUT THIS.

IT'S JUST NOT AS BIG OF AN ISSUE FOR THEM.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD ARGUE IT SHOULD BE.

THAT WAS KIND OF PART OF THE DEMOCRATS LAST-DITCH ATTEMPT TO GET MEN TO CARE MORE ABOUT THAT ISSUE.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, POLITICS IS MUCH MORE ABOUT GOING TO WHERE VOTERS ARE DOWN TELLING VOTERS THEY ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE AND THEY SHOULD COME TO YOU.

HAPPENED HERE, THE MEN IN PARTICULAR, YOUNG MEN, WERE BEING TOLD YOU SHOULD CARE MORE ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND THEREFORE VOTE FOR US.

RATHER THAN ASKING THEM WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT?

IT TURNS OUT THAT ABORTION WAS MUCH LOWER ON THE LIST.

>> WHAT ARE SOME DATA POINTS THAT YOU WANT TO USE TO SAY THAT THERE IS THE CRISIS OF MEN AND YOUNG MEN BEING UNADDRESSED?

>> NONE OF THE PROBLEMS FACING YOUNG MEN TODAY ARE THE RESULT OF DELIBERATE ANTI-MALE POLICIES.

THAT IS AN IDEA THAT HAS TAKEN HOLD ON THE RIGHT, THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THE IDEA OF NEGLECT AND LOOKING AWAY.

THE OPPORTUNITY HERE IS FOR A POLITICAL MESSAGE SUPPORTED BY POLICY, WHICH IS AN AND ROLE, RATHER THAN AN ORDER MESSAGE.

THE LACK OF REPRESENTATION AND WOMEN IN SENIOR LEADERSHIP AND THE STEM JOBS, ET CETERA.

AND WE ARE GOING TO TACKLE THE GROWING MALE THE STRUGGLES OF BOYS IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM AND THE DIFFICULTIES THAT YOUNG MEN ARE HAVING ENTERING THE LABOR MARKET.

IF WE CAN GET PAST THAT, WE HAVE TO RISE TOGETHER MESSAGE.

AGAIN, THE IRONY IS THAT ACTUALLY A FEMALE HEADED TICKET MAY HAVE MORE PERMISSION TO DO THAT.

IF KAMALA HARRIS HAD, STRONGLY SAYING I HAVE AN AGENDA FOR MEN.

HERE'S MY POLICY PLATFORM FOR MEN INCLUDING MORE VOCATIONAL LEARNING, MATERNITY LEAVE FOR MEN.

A PUSH TO GET MORE MALE TEACHERS.

A COACH FOR AMERICA PROGRAM AND HERE IS MY AGENDA TO HELP WOMEN, TOO.

THAT WOULD HAVE SPOKEN TO THE MOM WHO IS TERRIFIED ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE, BUT ALSO REALLY WORRIED ABOUT HER SON IN SCHOOL, WORRIED ABOUT HER BROTHERS MENTAL HEALTH.

BECAUSE ACTUALLY IN THE REAL WORLD RIGHT NOW, MOTHERS, FATHERS ARE AS WORRIED ABOUT THE MEN AND THE WOMEN AND THE BOYS AND GIRLS IN THEIR LIVES FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

WE HAVE NOT HAD IT YET FROM EITHER SIDE, BUT THERE IS SPACE FOR A POLITICS AND POLICY PLATFORM THAT MANAGES TO DO TWO THINGS AT ONCE.

AND MANAGES TO ADVOCATE FOR CHANGES THAT WOULD HELP BOYS AND MEN WITHOUT DOING LESS FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.

RIGHT NOW IT FEELS AS IF THE CHOICE IS BETWEEN A REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IN ITS MESSAGING THAT SOMETIMES FEELS LIKE IT WANTS TO TURN BACK THE CLOCK ON WOMEN.

THE DEMOCRAT PARTY THAT HAS TURNED ITS BACK ON MEN.

AND SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THOSE TWO EXTREMES, THERE'S A CONSTRUCTIVE NON-ZERO-SUM POLITICS WHICH SAYS WE RISE TOGETHER.

THAT MEANS WE CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THE YOUNG MEN WHO ARE FALLING BEHIND AS THE YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE STRUGGLING TO RISE.

INSTITUTE FOR BOYS AND MEN, RICHARD REEVE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> SO MUCH TO DIGEST THERE AND THINK ABOUT.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT A TRAILBLAZER IN THE WORLD OF DANCE CRITICALLY AND ANSWER AND CHOREOGRAPHER JUDITH JENISON HAS DIED AT THE AGE OF 81.

WHEN FEW BLACK WOMEN WERE PROMINENT IN DANCE, SHE BROKE BARRIERS TRAINING AS A BALLERINA BEFORE JOINING THE AMERICAN DANCE THEATER IN 1965.

AT 5'10", SHE DESCRIBED HERSELF AS THE ANTITHESIS OF A CLASSICAL DANCER AND BECAME AN INTERNATIONAL STAR PRAISE FOR HER PRESENCE AND GRACE.

SHE WOULD GO ON TO SERVE ANOTHER 20 YEARS AS THE COMPANY'S CREATIVE DIRECTOR, TRANSFORMING IT INTO THE MOST SUCCESSFUL MODERN DANCE TROUPE IN THE COUNTRY.

TONIGHT, WE LEAVE YOU WITH ONE OF HER SIGNATURE DANCES, CRY.

IT IS A SOLO PIECE ABOUT BLACK WOMANHOOD.

THE DANCE HAD ALLOWED HER TO BECOME HERSELF.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.