- We're on the ground with the governor in the state that could decide it all.

This week on Firing Line.

- Are you ready to elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walz?

(crowd cheering) America, let's get to work!

- [Margaret] With 2 1/2 weeks to go, both candidates are focused on Pennsylvania.

- It's good to be back in Pennsylvania.

- [Margaret] The battleground state with the most electoral votes.

- If we win Pennsylvania, we're gonna win the whole thing, right?

- [Margaret] Making the case for Vice President Kamala Harris, Pennsylvania's popular Democratic Governor, Josh Shapiro.

Elected in 2022 by a 15-point margin over his Trump-backed opponent, Shapiro has a reputation for building a broad bipartisan coalition.

The former Pennsylvania Attorney General has known Harris for years.

- Let me tell you about my friend Kamala Harris.

She has a big heart.

- [Margaret] With polls tightening and questions about whether Harris can win over key constituencies, what does Governor Josh Shapiro say now?

- [Announcer] Firing Line with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, and by the following.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. - Governor Josh Shapiro, welcome to Firing Line.

- Good to be with you.

- The polls are extremely close in Pennsylvania between Vice President Harris and former President Trump.

And this is no surprise to you, especially as you commonly cite 2016 and 2020, both very close to presidential elections.

But you have blamed Donald Trump for taking away women's right to have an abortion.

You have accused him of endangering Americans with his lies.

You have said he fails at the basic lessons of virtue and morality.

- [Josh] Yeah.

- That were intended to teach our children.

How do you understand then that half of your state will be supporting him?

- Look, I don't think that Pennsylvanians are kind of on that kind of political spectrum that I think many in the media want to describe it as.

Pennsylvanians sometimes vote for Republicans, sometimes vote for a Democrat.

Here's what they wanna know.

They wanna know that the leader, whether it's someone they vote for for president, for governor, that they give a damn, that they're willing to stand up and fight for them and deliver for them.

I focus every day on three letters as governor in my job, GSD.

And since this is PBS, I'll just say that stands for get stuff done.

That's what people want.

They wanna know their elected leaders are focused on getting stuff done.

I think Donald Trump is focused on himself.

Kamala Harris is focused on trying to lift others up and with about three weeks to go in this campaign, she's gotta continue to carry that message forward, continue to let people know the clear contrast in the race and the stakes couldn't be higher.

- Despite how close the presidential election was in 2016 and again, in 2020, you run two years later in 2022 beating a Trump-endorsed election denier by 15 percentage points.

- That's right.

- So what does Vice President Harris need to learn from you about winning this state?

- I don't know that she's gotta learn anything from me or I have any advice.

I'll just tell you what I've done.

In over my career, I've always shown up, gone to the communities that oftentimes are forgotten and ignored and left behind.

I think she just needs to keep doing exactly what she's doing, showing up in those communities.

She is showing up in rural communities and ex-urban communities in areas that, let's be candid, for a lot of years, national Democrats just ignored.

And I think that's really important and Kamala Harris is doing just that.

- The election is less than three weeks away.

Early voting is underway.

- [Josh] That's correct.

- As someone who successfully built a broad bipartisan coalition, what do undecided voters need to hear from Kamala Harris?

- Pennsylvanians clearly tell me, tell others that the economy, which I would sort of drill down a little further.

What that really means is the cost people are bearing each day in their day-to-day lives, That's really important to them.

Making sure that there's a comprehensive plan on immigration, really important to them.

Protecting their rights and freedoms like the freedom for women to be able to make decisions over their own bodies, something Donald Trump ripped away.

You know, those consistently are big, important issues.

And on that, you've got a clear contrast.

Kamala Harris has talked specifically about how she would cut taxes for small businesses, make it easier for people to afford childcare.

Donald Trump doesn't have a plan on that.

On immigration, Kamala Harris has said she'd support that bipartisan immigration reform, which would strengthen our border, allow us to hire more immigration officials so that we could process asylums claim more quickly.

Donald Trump killed that.

And on the issue of freedom, which is so paramount I think here in Pennsylvania, Donald Trump has bragged about how he's taken away the rights of millions of women in this country to make decisions over their own bodies, to decide when and on what terms to start a family.

Kamala Harris will restore those rights and freedoms.

Why am I citing those things?

Because you asked me about Pennsylvanians and where they are.

These are issues consistently on people's minds and I think there's a clear contrast in this race between the two candidates on those issues.

- Does she need to say anything else?

I mean, she's been saying those things.

Is it just that people haven't tuned in yet?

What's gonna persuade independent voters?

- Well, look- - Or is it just those three things?

- We've got in effect, a jump ball of a race right now.

I mean, you study the polls.

She's up a little, tied, down a little bit.

I mean, it's basically a statistical dead heat, which is not a shock given the fact, as you cited, the last two races came down to a point or less.

And so, I don't think, as you frame the question, what does she need to do versus what does he need to do?

She just needs to continue to go out, continue to show up, and continue to meet Pennsylvanians where they are and to address these issues.

- Is she differentiating herself enough in Pennsylvania from President Biden, whose approval rating has hovered around 40% for some time now?

- I mean, look, she said in the debate, "I'm not Joe Biden" or something to that effect.

She's her own person.

I think folks understand that the contrast in this race is not one about Kamala Harris and Joe Biden.

It's between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

And on that, you've got a very clear contrast.

- She had an opportunity in the last week or so to say what she would do differently from Joe Biden.

And critics say she whiffed the opportunity, she had one on The View, one on the other.

She just didn't take the chance to say what she would do differently.

- You know, I'm not ducking your question.

I didn't see the- - Yeah.

- Interview that you're referencing.

But what I think is clear in this race is that you have a stark contrast between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, and they have very different views on where they wanna take the economy, on national security, on the issues of fundamental freedoms.

And that to me is the question on voters' minds.

Do I want Kamala Harris or do I want Donald Trump?

- Before Roe was overturned, about half of Pennsylvania voters supported abortion being legal in all or most cases.

Post-Dobbs, this has changed dramatically.

- Yeah.

- Several statewide polls now have that number as 2/3 or more.

- Correct, or more.

- This November will be the first post-Dobbs presidential election.

And in every state where abortion has been put on the ballot, polls have dramatically undercounted support for abortion rights.

Harris, of course, has made defending abortion rights a top issue.

Donald Trump has also bragged about being responsible for the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

- Right.

- Is it possible that the polls that have this state as neck and neck are making the same mistakes in the modeling that every other state has when they've tried to understand support for abortion rights and what the electorate is gonna look like?

- Look, I'm not a pollster.

I don't know, I think pollsters have gotten a lot wrong in recent years, but I am a data guy and I think past is prologue.

So, let's examine this.

In my race in 2022 for governor, where you cited overwhelming support.

We not only earned the votes of Democrats, but Republicans and independents as well.

And one of the central issues in my race was the issue about abortion rights and whether or not women should have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

And you had a stark contrast between me and my opponent, just as you do, between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump and Republicans, Democrats, independents came out and they voted for freedom, and they voted for me to defend their fundamental rights and freedoms.

That is where the vast majority, as you cited, of voters are in Pennsylvania.

I would also cite as another data point in the race for the United States Senate in Donald Trump's own reelection campaign, the candidates that have stood up against freedom for women in this commonwealth and in this country have all lost.

People want their freedom.

Women deserve their freedoms and they're gonna continue to demand it at the polls.

- How do you, as the governor of the state, how do you suspect that will play in this contested senate race in your state against a Democrat who was previously pro-life and a Republican who has a moderated with exceptions not nearly as hard line of a position that also says he'll support Pennsylvania's own abortion laws?

- Yeah.

- Protection laws.

- Well, you know what's interesting is in this senate race, both candidates have expressed different views on the issue themselves.

Bob Casey has evolved on this issue, and he's been incredibly honest about his evolution, incredibly honest about the conversations he's had with his fellow Pennsylvanians, he's had with his daughters and his wife.

And he has been staunchly pro-choice.

I think that's a sign of strength when a leader is able to listen to the people, listen to themselves, and evolve on an issue.

That's really different from Dave McCormick, his opponent, who's like all over the place.

You know, when he was running in a Republican primary, he was hard line on this issue against freedom, against choice.

And now all of a sudden, on the end of a general election campaign, he's like all squishy on it.

If women want someone who's gonna stand up and protect abortion rights in this country, there is a clear choice and that's Bob Casey.

- Last week, President Obama was here in Pennsylvania and he was speaking directly to Black voters.

- [Josh] Yep.

- He told Black men that it is, quote, "Not acceptable to sit out this election or vote for Trump."

Congressman Jim Clyburn recently told CNN quote, "I am concerned about Black men staying home or voting for Trump."

Black voters make up 13% of the Commonwealth's voters.

Vice President Harris told Charlamagne the God that reparations quote, "Need to be studied and created a new outreach platform for Black men that includes legalizing marijuana at the federal level."

This doesn't seem like a campaign that is confident that Black men are going to turn out.

Your reaction.

- Well, I think Black voters are critically important here in Pennsylvania and the fact that Kamala Harris went on Charlamagne's show on The Breakfast Club, something I've been on to, I think that's a sign of strength.

I think that's great that she's out there talking about her vision, listening to voices in the community.

I think that's a sign of strength and I'm glad she's doing that.

- Does she have a problem with Black male voters?

- I think what she's trying to do is close the deal in the final 2 1/2, three weeks of this campaign and try to, I said before, she's trying to go everywhere and I think going on The Breakfast Club is an important place to go.

- In 1987 when Joe Biden ran for president, the very first time, the Pennsylvania native participated in a Firing Line Candidate Forum with William F. Buckley, Jr. and spoke about the importance of energy security and its relationship to national security.

Take a look.

- We have to be responsible and the next president has to understand you gotta play a world role and have a national energy policy that relates to our national security.

We need energy now.

- Vice President Harris has changed her past positions on energy.

She's changed her views on fracking, on mandating electric vehicles.

And I know that you say that her change in those positions shows her strength as a candidate and her ability to evolve and to learn.

What I'd like to ask you, governor, is has she told you why she changed her position?

- Well, first let me say Joe Biden circa 1987 is right, we need to produce more energy in this country for our economy, for national security.

We're producing more energy right now than ever before and that's something we should be proud of.

I'm certainly proud of that as the governor of Pennsylvania where we are a net energy exporter and I think that that is incredibly important.

And I think Kamala Harris' views on this issue have changed.

And as I have said and you cited, I think it's a sign of strength.

She listened to people, she evolved on the issue.

- But why?

- We have not had- - What's her reason for changing?

- We have not had a direct conversation about this issue in particular.

I think what is clear to me, this is my interpretation, is that she's listened and she has seen the power that natural gas, the power that our energy sources domestically here in the United States have in strengthening our economy and strengthening our national security just as Joe Biden in '87 talked about.

- The worry or the concern is that she's just changed for political reasons, whereas if there was a real clear national security rationale or a reason that felt believable, that that would make it more believable.

- Look, I think that's on the Vice President to explain her rationale on this.

But let's not forget, Donald Trump literally changes his position, not by the month or the year, literally by the hour.

I mean, depending upon what room guy's in.

- Yeah.

- He makes up different BS for whatever audience he's talking to.

So, I mean, I think we gotta be, she has a policy issue that she has evolved on that is important here in Pennsylvania and I think in other states.

The other guy just goes out and lies and changes his mind every day.

- Another group of people she's trying to reach out to are Republicans.

One such Republican who explained to his fellow Pennsylvania Republicans that he voted for her this week was Charlie Dent, former Representative Charlie Dent.

Says he's already voted for Kamala Harris in early voting.

What is your reaction to Charlie Dent supporting Vice President Harris?

- Charlie Dent was an outstanding United States congressman, an honorable public servant, and for those who aren't familiar with the area he represented, it's called the Lehigh Valley.

You know, we're known as a swing state.

That may be the swingiest area in our swing state.

- Is it meaningful that he endorsed her?

- Yeah, he enjoyed support- - And supported her.

- From Republicans and Democrats and independents alike.

And it is really meaningful that he endorsed her.

I was honored to earn Charlie's endorsement when I ran for governor.

You asked, as part of this question, is it important if you're a Democrat to get Republican support?

It sure as heck is in Pennsylvania.

And I'm seeing more and more Republicans and independents importantly, begin to line up behind Kamala Harris.

And I think it's for two reasons.

Number one, they do not want to go back to the chaos of Donald Trump.

And number two, they like a lot of what Kamala Harris is offering.

- I wanna ask you about the town of Charleroi, Pennsylvania, which has many immigrants and Haitians who have settled there over many years.

And weeks ago, Trump falsely blamed immigrants for crime there.

Claimed that the town was on the brink of bankruptcy, which it's not, and made Charleroi the target for white supremacists.

My question for you, governor, is well, much of what Trump says is false and is untrue.

Polls show that Pennsylvania voters trust him more than Vice President Harris on immigration and public safety.

And I wanna know why you think that is.

- Well, let's separate out those two parts of your question.

First off, what Trump did by attacking people in Charleroi pissed me off as the governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

He attacked one of our communities.

He attacked the good people in the communities.

Donald Trump has a history of not actually helping communities, but taking advantage of them for some short-term political gain.

That is what he did in Charleroi, that's what he and his sidekick JD Vance did in Springfield where they lied about people, whatever, eating dogs or cats or something there.

It's bonkers and it's dangerous stuff.

And listen, his lies lead to communities being worse off.

You asked the second part of your question, well, why do folks- - But then why do the polls bear out support for him that leaves Harris' support?

- I think what people want on immigration, for example, certainly what I want to see is a strong, secure border.

I have felt this way for more than a decade, and a clear plan and path for citizenship for those who are here and very clear rules of the road for someone who wants to come to this country legally.

I mean let's be- - Crime.

- But, I'm sorry- - Crime?

- On crime?

- He leads her in crime too.

And the polls demonstrate that people trust him more to handle public safety than her.

- I mean, look, I was a prosecutor here in Pennsylvania.

Kamala Harris- - So explain it to me.

- Was a successful prosecutor in California and she's literally running against a convicted felon.

- So then explain it to me.

- You could not have a clearer contrast on this.

- Why?

- And crime has been going down thanks in part to the help of the Biden-Harris administration, and crime went up on Donald Trump's watch.

- Still doesn't answer the question for why Pennsylvanians trust him more than her.

- Well, I mean, that's a statement- - On that issue.

- That you made.

- Those are polls.

No, no, that's what the polling bears out, that's not my statement.

That's what the polling bears out.

- I think the contrast is clear on this issue and let's see what the most important poll says on November 5th on election night.

- Okay, fair enough.

Look, your Jewish faith is a enormously important part of your identity.

And Israel and the Jewish people have been very important to you in terms of articulating your support and defense of the Jewish people since October 7th.

- Yeah.

- Last year.

- And long before that.

- And long before that.

The war between Israel and Hamas rages and Democrats nationally have expressed some concern about whether the US' support for Israel might dampen the Arab American vote in some parts of the country, particularly Michigan.

But you have a vibrant Muslim population in Pennsylvania.

- We do.

- What is the positive case for Harris to Muslim voters here in Pennsylvania?

- Well, I can tell you, I spend a good bit of time visiting not just with Muslims here in Pennsylvania, but Palestinian Christians and Arab Americans, where I get the opportunity to listen and to hear the pain, to hear what's on people's minds, to express back the pain that I feel for the suffering that we're seeing in Gaza.

It is possible to hold emotionally both the pain and the trauma for what happened in Israel on October 7th, wanting the hostages to be returned home and to also feel the pain for those innocent people in Gaza who are losing their lives in this war with Hamas.

It is possible to hold all of that pain together and I do my best to sure that I'm a governor that represents all Pennsylvanians who are feeling pain on so many different sides of this issue.

I think Kamala Harris is doing that as well, making sure that folks understand that she will continue to stand with Israel in its defense against terrorism, be it Hezbollah, be it Iran, be it Hamas.

And to also say that we have to make sure, as she has said, the manner in which the war is prosecuted matters and that innocent lives need to be protected.

She just needs to continue to speak on those issues in the thoughtful, compassionate way that she has and that I'm trying to here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

- In 2020, we did not find out who won Pennsylvania until the Saturday after the election.

- Right.

- Partisan gridlock prevented the state legislature from passing a bill that would have reformed the elections here in Pennsylvania, perhaps sped up the counting of the vote.

You have had a lot of success, bipartisan success with the legislature, but this one eluded you.

Why was Pennsylvania not able to pass an election reform package?

- Donald Trump.

And let me explain why.

Pennsylvania has mail-in voting so you can vote prior to election day by mail.

It's a safe and secure way to vote and many other states do this.

In those other states that do it, they also have something called pre-canvass where when you send your ballot back, basically it gets processed ahead of time so that come election night when the polls close, the computer can sort of spit out the vote total relatively quickly.

And it's really important to note that this exists in Republican-led states and democratic-led states.

It is not a partisan issue, it's more administrative.

Republican and democratic clerks of election in our 67 counties have called for pre-canvass.

It's common sense.

And actually the legislature was poised to pass it, this was before I was governor.

And when they were poised to pass it, Donald Trump said, "No, don't do that."

And why did he do that?

'Cause he likes the chaos.

He wants people to think that the chaos somehow is the system being rigged against him and it's utter nonsense.

You know how I know that?

Because they brought 43 different cases in court, spewing that utter nonsense against us.

When I was Attorney General of Pennsylvania during the 2020 election, Donald Trump and his cronies went O and 43.

I went 43 and O and we had a free and fair, safe and secure election here in Pennsylvania.

- In Pennsylvania in 2020, Donald Trump claimed that he won the election before the ballots were finished being counted.

- Falsely claimed.

- Falsely claimed.

Rolling Stones has reported this week that lawyers close to Trump say that he is preparing to declare the election rigged once again as the mail-in ballots are still being counted.

What is your plan to prevent confusion and conspiracy theories from taking root in the days and hours after November 5th?

- Well, fundamentally, the most important thing I'm gonna do is speak truth, something Donald Trump struggles to do.

But from a governmental standpoint, you should know that nearly a year ago I created the Election Protection Task Force here in our commonwealth.

I asked my secretary of state, that's the position that oversees elections, Al Schmidt- - Republican secretary of state.

- A Republican because I believe, I'm a Democrat, I believe that the administration of elections should be apolitical, nonpartisan.

And I wanted to send a clear message with the appointment of a pro-democracy secretary of state, who also happens to be a Republican, that there is no partisanship when it comes to running the elections.

My Election Protection Task Force chaired by Secretary Schmidt involves law enforcement from the local, state, and federal level.

It involves clerks of elections from all different levels, Republican, Democrat, independent.

Lawyers to make sure that any attempts, and we're seeing them now to restrict legal eligible voters' right to vote and then ultimately stop certain votes from being counted.

We saw this happen in 2020 because of Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani and all those folks who lied about our elections.

We expect that to happen again because of Donald Trump and so, we are prepared.

And what I want the good people of Pennsylvania, the good people of this country to know is we will respect the will of the people.

As you and I have talked about, this election's close.

I don't know how it's gonna go but I know it will be administered fairly and I know it will be administered securely.

And I have great confidence in not just Secretary Schmidt, but the Republican and Democratic clerks all across this commonwealth who are doing this hard work.

- Governor Josh Shapiro, thank you for joining me here on Firing Line.

- Thank you.

Great to be with you.

- All right.

Thanks so much.

- [Josh] Thanks.

- [Announcer] Firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, and by the following.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. (bright music) (bright music continues) (bright music continues) (bright music continues) (bright music fades) (gentle music) (lighthearted music) - [Announcer] You're watching PBS.