-How did that experience skew your perception of yourself as a veteran?

I'm curious.

Did it make you think less of your service in some way or less of the people you served with?

Hi.

I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force staff sergeant, and today I'm sitting down with Bambi Bullard, Tonya Savice, and Ashley Brokop, three veterans who know what it's like to feel invisible after action.

-We feel invisible because the system has taught us to be invisible, and we won't say the things that we need.

Most of my career I spent in chronic pain from being misdiagnosed.

And one time I died, and they had to bring me back to life.

-What do you think were the factors of him just not listening to you?

-One, I think it was because I was a woman.

If I tell you I'm in pain, believe me.

If I tell you I'm hurting, believe me.

-How many women do you all encounter, fellow women veterans do you encounter who are like pulling -- pulling teeth to get them to go to VA for their services because of their past experiences?

-All of them.

-Every day.

-Yes.

-If you served, you served.

It counts.

Like, I think we have to quit discounting ourselves.

And I think we all have to be our own advocate, because we all deserve it.

We served.

This is one of our benefits.

And it's there for us.

-This is one of the reasons that I go on speaking tours all around the state, to educate people about why women feel invisible, why we were made to feel invisible.

-Right.

-Everywhere I go, I get these stories.

So that's really important to voice that.

It's not all of it, because, you know, we all had positive outcomes, for the most part, and successful careers.

But the fight to get that, we shouldn't have had to fight the way we did.

You know, those women who are -- have no confidence, no belief that they deserve these services, they have no idea.

You know, breaking through that initial wall, if you will, finding out why they stepped back from it, why they didn't want to even acknowledge their service.

-♪ There will be light ♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ - [Presenter] Major funding for "After Action" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations, and foundations, the Endowment is proud to sponsor "After Action".

-Ashley, Tonya, welcome to my farm here at LowCountry Acres, and, Bambi, welcome back.

-Thank you.

-Now, I have to acknowledge that Bambi is a reason the four of us are sitting here today, because in Season 1, she talked about women veterans being the invisible veteran.

And that was a great conversation to have.

So I want to talk a little bit about those experiences that color who we are as veterans now.

And maybe if you could share a little bit about What you've carried with you and how it affects you today.

Bambi, can you tell us a little bit about -- about you, your military history, where you're from?

-I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana, and went south to the Carolinas in '75, when I enlisted, stayed there through almost my entire career, other than an assignment in Washington, D.C.

I worked at the Pentagon for SECNAV.

And I discovered after getting into the medical side a little bit after a couple tours on the drill field what -- how dismissive the medical field was towards women vets.

Active duty, reserve, it didn't matter what.

-When most people think of veterans, it's not a woman's face they see.

That's why Marine Corps veteran Bambi Bullard has made it her mission to help change that by speaking to groups about the unique challenges women veterans face, from healthcare and benefits to employment and housing.

-I took that and started working to highlight those people's stories myself, to find out why so many women veterans hide their service.

They don't recognize it themselves.

They don't -- They don't want to talk about it.

You will not find them wearing T-shirts or ball caps.

That's the thing.

For most of the men veterans at the VA, they'll all come in wearing something designating their service, but you can't tell.

So I don't think we can fault the admin side of the VA.

When you check in for an appointment, there's no way they could know you're the vet and not the spouse.

So I go a little easy on them when they ask, "Where's your husband?

What's your husband's last four of his Social?"

-What's your -- What's your average response?

-My -- My what?

-What kind of --Do you have a response in your pocket when somebody asks you, where's your -- where's your veteran or what your veteran's last war is?

-I tell them that, um, "Drop -- Drop, give me 20."

That's my superpower.

There you go.

And they look at me like, what?

[ Laughs ] So, you know, some of them have actually served themselves.

You know, there's a lot of women in the VA system that have done their time, too.

So, you know, there's no way to really respond to that other than, "I am the vet.

And you need to check the record before you address me."

You know, I just experienced this a week ago, still today.

And this is one of the reasons.

This is one of the things that keeps women away from the VA system also, is that they're not recognized.

They are treated as invisible.

And they feel that.

-Do you think, Bambi, that that same feeling can be felt with veterans service organizations like the American Legion or VFW or any other place where you could walk in the doors?

-Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

I remember the first time I went to an American Legion and immediately directed to the back to the kitchen area and told that I could sign up with the Auxiliary.

-Which is what?

-The women's side of the American Legion.

Those are the spouses.

Those are the wives that work, you know, supporting their husbands in the Legion.

-How did that make you feel?

-Oh.

[ Chuckles ] I turned around and I said, "Thank you.

I don't want anything to do with your organization," and walked out and didn't go back and look at it again until almost 30 years later.

-Are you involved now?

-I am, to a degree.

As a head of a 501(c)(3), I have found that they do support veterans organizations, so I've had to make my peace with it.

And I've been a guest speaker to both sides, the males and female side.

-Tonya, can you tell me a little bit about where you're from and your military history?

-Well, I'm originally from New Orleans, Louisiana, and there's a myth.

Everybody from New Orleans do not like spicy food.

That's me.

I went in the Air Force.

Well, first, I really wanted to join the Marines because I liked their uniform.

But I tested high enough, and the Air Force recruiter was pulling towards me against my family, because I was the first one to go to college, and my pops wanted me to finish school.

I was supposed to be an attorney, but school just wasn't for me.

So I joined the Air Force to travel, because that's what he sold me, a bill of goods that I'll be able to travel, even though I did travel.

-Tonya Savice was the first in her family to serve when she enlisted in the Air Force in 1981.

She was thriving until a military sexual assault changed the course of her life.

She developed post-traumatic stress and chronic pain and was eventually medically retired.

She ultimately found healing and became an advocate for other women veterans who were struggling.

-Most of my career was good, except that most of my career I spent in chronic pain from being misdiagnosed because they didn't hear what I was saying.

And one time I died, and they had to bring me back to life.

And two other times I almost died.

-Can we elaborate on that?

-Yes.

-I have so many questions.

-Oh, yes, I remember it clearly.

I just had my son.

He was about three months old.

And I went back to work, and I kept having this abdomen pain.

It was severe.

I went to the ER, told them I was in pain.

They said, "Oh, it's nothing."

Gave me some medicine, sent me back to work.

Still in pain.

Bending over, grabbing my stomach.

Sent me to the ER.

They did an X-ray.

"Oh, it's a kidney stone.

We don't see anything yet, but we know it's a kidney stone."

Sent me back to work.

The third time, bent over.

I collapsed.

So someone called my husband, who worked right across the way.

He was able to walk over and said, "You need to come and get her.

They keep sending her to the ER.

It's not working."

So they called the ER, and they said, "No, you need to go to a civilian hospital," because McGuire didn't have OB-GYN.

They thought it was an ectopic pregnancy.

-Hmm.

-And before anything even happened, he said I collapsed.

And I had an ovarian cyst that ruptured.

That's what it was.

And actually, the doctor said I almost died.

I was like, "From an ovarian cyst?"

"Yeah, because it was affecting the rest of your organs and you were bleeding out."

So that was the first of my many pelvic surgeries.

-Now, this was a military emergency room.

-This was a military emergency room.

Kept sending me back to work.

And I was dying.

-What do you think were the factors of him just not listening to you?

-One, I think it was because I was a woman, and two was because I always have this positive aura about me.

-Yeah.

-I'm always smiling.

If I'm in pain, I'm smiling.

-Mm-hmm.

-You know, the girl behind the mask.

You wouldn't know if anything's wrong because I'm always smiling.

-Yeah.

-But that's the way I was raised, you know.

You don't have to let everyone else see what you're going through.

-Yes.

-You know, you can hang on.

You can hang in.

And I didn't look like I was in pain.

Well, I was bent over.

What else did I have to do to show you I was in pain?

I told you I was in pain.

Because normally, you know, I would just work.

It wasn't till decades later that I found out, statistic-wise, women of color are not heard as much when you go to the doctor, whether it's the military or the VA. -Why do you feel that is?

-Ignorance.

-Hmm.

-Someone's own prejudices and ignorance.

And not just women of color, just ignorance as far as a woman's body in general.

-Hmm.

-If I tell you I'm in pain, believe me.

If I tell you I'm hurting, believe me.

-Do you think -- Like, there's a military stigma, right, that you're either getting pregnant on purpose to get out of work or you're feigning menstrual cramps to get out of work.

Or there's that trope that we -- we use, you know, our gender-specific physiological things that we deal with as -- as, I guess, projecting weakness on us or that, you know, "Oh, it's not that bad.

You're just trying to get out of work."

Anyway, Ashley Brokop, welcome.

Can you tell me a little bit about your service?

How -- Like, where you're from originally, and what'd you do in the military?

-So I'm from the Midwest.

I'm from Illinois, Springfield.

I joined because I wanted to travel, and my first instinct was to go into the Peace Corps.

And when I reached out, you had to have a master's degree -- or, no, bachelor's.

I'm sorry.

Which I did not have that.

And I had an uncle that was in recruiting, and he kept -- he wrote me a letter in high school.

He really wanted me to join the Air Force.

And I remember, I think I replied like, "I don't want to kill anyone."

Like, I didn't know, you know.

And when the time came, I really still wanted to travel.

I reached out to him, and he really had my back.

He got me a good job.

I was a photographer.

When I went through MEPS, they tried to tell me the system was down and that I could be in military police, which is what they do to everybody.

And so I said -- This was before cellphones, but I was like, "I need to make a phone call."

And I called my uncle and I passed the phone to the recruiters, and all I heard was like, "Sir, yes, sir, sir, yes, sir."

And they were like, "Your job opened up."

So... -Ding!

-Yeah, so that's how I ended up in the Air Force.

I did get to travel quite a bit, which is where I met you, at Charleston, 1st Combat Camera, which was one of the greatest places that I ever got to serve 'cause of the possibilities that it gave me of all the places I got to see and people I got to see and things I got to shoot.

-When people set eyes on Ashley Brokop, people see her thousand-watt smile and bubbly personality.

But what most people don't know is she's also a hard-charging Air Force veteran who deployed around the world with the elite 1st Combat Camera Squadron and even photographed Saddam Hussein during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Like most women veterans, that part of Ashley is invisible.

What most people see is the wife of a veteran and mother of three.

Tell me a little bit about your military experience.

You know, being -- being in your job, it's, I think, predominantly male-dominated, you know, deploying with a different branch of service.

Tell me a little bit about -- about that.

-So I deployed before women were officially allowed in combat, which was interesting.

So the -- at the time that I was in Iraq, the -- the Army was -- they were deploying for like 180 days or something like that.

It was a very long time.

And they were asking for people to -- for Combat Camera to come -- like Air Force Combat Camera to come and backfill them so they could have R&R.

So it was -- I guess it was my turn.

And I had a captain that asked me, like, "Would you like to go?

It's your turn."

And so I was ready to go.

I really wanted an opportunity.

So I went downrange with the 1st Cavalry.

And when I showed up, there's just this feeling of walking into a chow hall and, like, the whole place is silent and everyone turns.

So I asked, like, "Where's all the women?"

And they said, "There's no women in the infantry."

And I had not -- I didn't have a clue what that even -- Like, I didn't even know, which is silly, but -- So I felt like a lot of the time I almost wanted to hide who I was or kind of disappear because I felt so seen in that way, not a good way.

I felt like a lot of times I was underestimated because of maybe how I looked.

I had short blond hair.

A lot of times I just wanted to kind of be under the radar.

But when you're in an environment when you're one of the only women, it's hard to be under the radar.

-I love that you said underestimated.

I want to look at some great things about my career.

I got to go around the world and see amazing things.

I met incredible human -- human beings who were doing really great things.

Yes, I saw some really bad stuff.

Yeah, I wasn't treated great all the time, but for the most part, I got treated like -- like I would a sister to most people.

And, you know, I was put in some very vulnerable positions, especially when I was in combat, living in a Stryker with the Army guys.

And I trusted them literally with my life, and they treated me with the utmost respect.

And so for that I have to salute them for -- for being so courageous in supporting me through that experience.

But not everybody was like that.

In fact, not every -- every one of us had a really great experience.

Maybe if everybody could share a little bit about how the military just wasn't taking you seriously.

Do you feel underestimated?

Bambi, let's start with you.

-I'm probably not the best one for this.

I was 20 when I went in.

I knew what I wanted.

I've always been -- I've never been hesitant in going after what I wanted.

I took a -- I took a whole woman Marine company out to the rappelling tower with a recon battalion on a 90-foot tower.

I forgot to ask permission.

And then when the captain found out about it, trust me, I got called in on the carpet, right?

But doing things like that, I always pushed the envelope because I knew women could do these things.

So those are the kinds of things, you know.

Don't tell me I can't.

Just watch me, because I'm going to show you we can.

And I kept that attitude throughout my whole career.

-I felt underestimated my whole career because I was in a career field, it was called bioenvironmental engineering specialist, industrial hygienist.

And basically what we did is EPA, OSHA-type inspections on the workforce in an environment.

And it was a man's job.

So when I would have to go do an inspection at a facility and let someone know, "Okay, your workers need protective equipment, you need to change this, you need to do this," they did not want to see a female telling them how to run their shop.

So that's what I got all the time.

It was like almost like a backlash.

-How did you handle it?

-I did my job.

If I had to write them up, I wrote them up.

I gave them - I gave them so much time.

This has to be corrected.

I remember an incident when my mother was in the hospital, and we inspected the hospitals also.

We had to check the ventilation.

We had to check the lighting, make sure, you know, everything was okay for not just the workers, but also the patients.

And my mom had to have surgery.

She had cancer.

And this lady came in, and she was about to feed her.

So I was like, "Why are you feeding Miss Forbes?"

I just went out to the nurses' station and asked her, "Why are you feeding Miss Forbes?

She's about to have surgery."

So this officer come out and said, "You telling me how to run my ship?"

I said, "No, I just need to know, why are you feeding Miss Forbes?

She's not supposed to be eating before surgery."

And then one of the other technicians came and said, "That's Sergeant Gibson.

She inspects us.

You need to be nice.

That's her mother."

I say, "You don't be nice to her because she's my mother.

You be nice to her because she's a patient.

She's a patient first, then she's my mother."

-Hm.

[ Dog snoring ] I need to acknowledge the big-time snorer in the room.

-Yeah.

-So, everybody, this is Charlie, my service dog, and he's doing exactly what he does best, making a lot of racket.

So he will be snoring throughout our interviews.

So -- But we love him.

Wake up a little bit.

Okay.

-I remember -- I remember when I had this accident and I was taken to the VA in Indianapolis, Christmas Eve, ruined everybody's holiday.

Yay me.

Right?

And the doctor in the ER told the nurse to bind me up and put me in holding until he got back from his vacation for Christmas.

He'd be back in three days.

And I'm hearing this on the other side of the curtain.

So, me being me, the Marine kicked in, and I said, "Excuse me.

I'm going to introduce you to a congressional investigation if you do what you just said you're going to do to me."

I had surgery that night.

[ Chuckles ] And they left -- he left my right leg four inches shorter than my left, and I had to go through multiple surgeries to fix it when I came back to Charleston area.

Had to go to a trauma surgeon and went through three surgeries and massive amounts of metal and implants and all kinds of things.

But the thing they did to me there in the hospital, when I came to, I smelled this funny odor, and I'm coming to my senses, you know, coming out of anesthesia.

I looked around, and I was in a broom closet.

They had shoved a gurney bed -- I wasn't even in a hospital bed.

I was on a gurney out of the ER in literally a janitor's closet.

Because there was no place -- This was 1995, okay?

There was no place to put a woman in that hospital.

-Oh, my God.

-This is Indianapolis VA, huge city, and there was no room for a woman.

They only had male wards.

-But unfortunately, that's still the reality that the percentage of women that can get into the hospital is slim.

You may have one female to a ratio of 20 men.

"Oh, we don't have the space for you."

So what do I do, stay at home and die while you find space?

-So I was still trying to find my feet as a veteran, and being in the VA community, obviously I was outnumbered, mainly men, mainly skewed older.

So somebody -- At that time, I was 27 years old and a woman, not really fitting in and definitely not the sort of a typical veteran people think when they hear that word.

And every time I'd go to the veteran, I'd feel like just all eyes on me and not in a good way, these assumptions that I'm bringing my dad or my husband or my grandfather to the VA, "What's your spouse's Social?"

And just I knew that every combat veteran from Vietnam or World War II, they were not grilled about their combat experience.

-Mm-hmm.

-"Oh, tell me again, how exactly did you get a traumatic brain injury?"

How many times do I have to tell you I was -- I was hit by a roadside bomb?

There was this -- trying to make this leap from being a woman and a combat veteran to how I got these injuries and then feeling like I had to grovel at the feet of the VA, whether it was a specialist or neurologist, orthopedist, talking to them about needing the care I needed because of the traumas that I experienced.

I already told you about the mental health situation, and that was an easy case.

-Mm-hmm.

-So I was getting very frustrated.

And then I was not coping well with the experiences that I had in combat.

I had internalized it, the multi layers of trauma, even that one little snippet with, like, all the sexual harassment and all the sort of innuendo and all the things -- and the self-inflicted pressures I was putting on myself, and then the external pressures and the external traumas.

I was a hot mess.

And the VA's answer was to put more drugs on more drugs on more drugs.

And suddenly I had this trash bag full of drugs.

I was completely disconnected from my friends.

I was -- I was in a -- I was in a bad place.

And I felt like I neither belonged to the military community, and I didn't belong in the veteran community, and I had no identity whatsoever.

The military had ripped it from me.

So we quietly recess ourselves from society and we hide away our service because not every -- every one of us had a really great experience.

And I can't reiterate this enough.

I had fantastic people I worked with.

It's just unfortunately, that one bad person really ruined so many good things for me.

And I feel like if I look at the trajectory of my military career, it's like these little speed bumps.

They're all -- this -- It could have gone so well if not for these potholes that I hit along the way.

And I feel like sometimes when I talk about my military career, I can't avoid bringing up those things because it was such a big part of that.

So I want to take a moment to talk a little bit about some good and some bad things and maybe talk about why we feel invisible.

Or why do women veterans fall into the background?

-When I was in Georgia just over a month ago, Lowe's has a veteran parking spot.

You know, you don't have to have, you know, the DV tag.

They just have a veterans parking spot.

So this man comes and say, "I was going to park there."

I was like, "Sorry, sir.

I parked there first."

"Well, where's your husband?"

"Well, sir, I'm a veteran."

"Oh, what did you do?

You don't look like a veteran."

What does a veteran look like?

[ Laughs ] -G.I.

Joe.

-Go figure.

What does a veteran look like?

And I remember one time going to the VA, and I'm just waiting.

And the VA was crowded.

They were packed.

So, yeah, I'm just sitting there, and I was doing my Bible study, and this gentleman wanted to sit down.

So he just started giving me a hard time, you know, just picking on me.

Out of everybody, why you want to pick on me?

But he chose to pick on me and not ask any of the men to get up.

So he just was going at it.

And I looked at him.

I said, "Just because I'm doing this Bible study, don't get it confused."

I say, "Because I'm a veteran and I could cuss like the rest of them."

And then he looked at me, and everybody just started clapping.

I wasn't looking for an applause.

But why are you going to pick on me?

Because I'm the only female that was in the room, and you want me to get up and give you my seat?

Oh, not happening.

And that's when I got my enough and I started advocating.

It's like, this is unnecessary.

I don't want my nieces or my grandniece or, you know, my nephew who has a daughter, a young daughter, to say, "I don't want to join the military because of these problems."

No, we're going to educate you and empower you to know that if that's what you want to do, you can do it.

And you have choices, and you don't have to put up with the status quo that we had to put up with years and years ago.

You know, my whole answer about the VA system is that the majority of women I know choose other healthcare because of the hassles with the VA.

In my perspective, I don't think that's the answer, because if we don't continue to go to let them know what we need, there's not going to ever be any change.

-I love that so much.

It's so powerful.

So I want to take an opportunity to kind of talk a little bit about when somebody assumes you're not a veteran, okay, these sort of awkward moments in public.

So, I was at the VA waiting for an appointment, and I had been there, like every other veteran in the waiting room, waiting for two hours past my appointment time.

I was pretty hungry, and the Red Cross, thank their hearts, were there with a table, and they had some sodas and cookies, and they were providing refreshments for the veterans.

I walked up, and there was this younger gal behind the table handing out cookies, and I went to grab -- grab something, and she slapped my hand away and said, "Those are for veterans."

-Wow.

-Ashley, let me ask you this.

You have kids.

How influential -- As a veteran, how influential are you with your children?

And, like, your oldest son is about to go in the military.

How influential were you as a veteran in his decision to go in the military?

-I mean, I guess it was pretty influential.

He's dressed up like a military person for his whole life.

Like, every Halloween, he's a TACP or a combat controller, which actually is funny.

Like four Halloweens ago, he was a lot younger and shorter, and he was dressed in a uniform that's not real.

Like, it's just stuff he put together of ours.

And people kept saying, "Thank you for your service."

And I'm like, "He got it, but I can't."

You know what I mean?

I was like, "He's like 12 years old."

[ Laughter ] Over and over, and I'm like -- And he had, like, a fake weapon, you know, and I'm thinking like, what is wrong with these people?

-Education.

-Well, and I was going to say, no matter -- Like, there's the good, bad, and ugly of everything.

And I feel like no matter -- I had an amazing career, even if it was shorter than I wished it was.

I almost think the countries with conscripted service, I almost feel like that would be an amazing thing for our country to have, because I feel like the kids that went to the military are -- Not -- I mean, there's always going to be the outliers, but I feel like they're wiser, they're more traveled, they figure out who they are.

Like, that's what the military did for me.

It helped me figure out who I was.

It helped me see the world and get paid.

So I feel like, I don't know, you take the good and the bad, but I wouldn't -- I wouldn't change a thing.

-And I agree, actually, because I didn't know that there was a life outside of New Orleans until I joined the military.

And then my first assignment was Hawaii.

It's like, "What?

I really get to travel?"

It's like, "Man."

-I know.

-So I have some questions.

Having husbands who've served and it's -- I had a husband who served.

It's often that people tend to, like, reach across me and shake my husband's hand and thank him for his service.

Ashley, what's your experience in that?

-Well, it happens all the time.

I think my husband's a real gentleman, and he will often say, like, "My wife served in combat," and people will look, and sometimes they don't believe him, or I don't know what their reaction is, but he always is the first to say that.

And I really appreciate that, 'cause it is true.

People automatically look at him.

It's just what people naturally do, I guess.

-Do you think because, you know, we are maybe feminine or we, you know, wear dresses and maybe there's assumptions, or how much of it is from the time we're kids, we're told it's G.I.

Joe and our history books and our textbooks tell us all of the stories about our war heroes and how great he was?

What can we do to -- Because, Bambi, you, early on in this conversation, said that the majority of the people at the VA make an assumption about you, and you don't hold it against them.

I, too, can't hold it against other people because they just don't know.

-We just have to educate them.

-Well, where does that education start?

-Right in their face every time they make the mistake.

-But do you think it starts earlier?

Do you think it starts in the classrooms?

How do we change the face of the veteran?

How do we change people's perceptions of how they perceive the veteran community?

-Well, I think you've done a really good job of educating with the Veterans Portrait Project.

I mean, I've seen your pictures all over.

I've been to a lot of VAs in the state, and seeing those pictures, there's always a diverse showing.

And so I love that.

I love that if my kids ever go with me, my daughter goes with me, she gets to see the faces of all sorts of veterans.

-And there's a good share of female representation on those walls.

-Yes, there is.

-Advocacy in the schools, in the homes.

It's like everything about life, you know.

It starts with educating.

It starts with educating your family first.

-Yeah.

-Then educating the public.

And in schools, they need to.

right what's wrong, incorrect.

No, it's no longer G.I.

Joe.

-Right.

-We're in there, too.

-Mm-hmm.

I think it's interesting, 'cause I want to ask you guys -- and you're all women veterans -- have you heard of the 6888?

-I don't think so.

-Exactly.

6888, an all-black female unit that served during World War II on the front lines.

Why do we not know about this?

-Right.

-Because those women are just as worthy of their stories being told as the men who are in the textbooks, too, and I think -- -But how did you find out about them?

-Exactly, on my journey of discovery through my own community.

I think we all need to want to learn more and demand to know more and -- and want to listen to these stories.

-It's funny how we feel invisible because the system has taught us to be invisible.

And we won't say the things that we need.

For myself, that was hard, because I wanted to be full career.

You know, give me 20, 25 years.

How long can I stay in and continue to travel?

'Cause I enjoyed what I did.

I loved my job.

It's just that the pain wanted me out more.

You know, eight of my years I spent in pain from misdiagnosis.

You know, I couldn't do the things that I needed to do -- climb to do inspections, crawl to do inspections.

I couldn't do that anymore.

And I was blessed because someone told me about a medical military retirement.

I was like, "What?

I can get out?

Not do 20 and get paid for it?"

And she said, "You deserve it.

You got injured on the job.

You need to go ahead and apply for it."

-Wow.

-And so I applied for it.

So they finally gave me my medical retirement, and I went to do -- Part of that process, they told me to go to the VA, get my paperwork done so I can get my disability.

And I did that, and they disapproved me.

-At the VA?

-I was -- I was -- I was disapproved, and it's because the wording was not what's in the books.

The person wrote hysterectomy.

It's not called hysterectomy.

But because of that, you know -- -That changes your rating.

-Yes, I was denied.

So I go back into the organization and I speak with the gentleman, told him what happened, and I said, "Well, I know that I'm entitled to at least 50% because of my hysterectomy, but I have all these other problems that I want to put in for."

"Oh, you're lucky you're getting that.

You're never going to get more than that."

And like you said, don't tell me what I can't do.

So I put on my face, that smile going.

And I'm walking out of the office, I'm crying.

"Just because you said I can't, I'mma show you I will.

Before it's done, I'mma have my 100% 'cause you told me I can't have it."

And I was determined.

I was determined.

No, I didn't break me.

Y'all broke me.

Y'all misdiagnosed me to have me to have all these complications.

And -- And that's why I advocate for women.

"What do you mean you haven't filed your claim?"

And almost to the point where someone told me I was harassing them, and I said, "I'm sorry that I got in your space, but I just want you to know, you are a veteran, and you deserve your benefits.

They're not giving you anything.

You earned it."

But unfortunately, that's still the reality that the percentage of women that can get into the hospital is slim.

-Well, I remember I was looking for mental health services after I got out, and all of the sort of combat-related treatments for mental health were all men groups, groups for men, and they're like, "I'm sorry.

We just can't put you in this group."

And I was like, "Are they combat veterans?"

"Yeah."

"Well, I'm a combat veteran."

They're like, "Yeah, but you're a woman.

You're going to change the dynamic.

You're going to -- It'll just change the whole thing."

I'm like, "Gosh, it didn't change the whole thing when we were exchanging fire downrange together.

So suddenly we come home and that changes the dynamic?"

-Give me what I need.

I'm not even asking you for extra.

I'm just asking for the basics of what I need.

-What you deserve.

-Yes.

You said a key word.

The perception is a veteran, someone with PTSD, someone that has all these injuries that you can see, but they don't see the internal wounds.

And for me, you can't see my internal wounds because I'm always wearing this smile.

Because regardless of where I'm at or what I'm doing, I have a job to do.

You know, I'm not going to burden you with what I'm going through just because I'm in pain.

You know, that's not fair to you or to anyone, for that matter.

So I'm going to put on this smile.

I'm going to do what I have to do.

But that doesn't mean that the internal pain is not there.

So people make an assumption, you know, not just veterans, people in general.

-Well, 2 million women veterans live in America, and it's just as much our story as it is -- We are a small fraction of the veteran community now, but we're the fastest growing.

And so we aren't going anywhere.

And it's -- it's time that we... acknowledge our service and be proud of that.

It's not that -- I don't think it's even a matter that we're not proud of it.

I think it's just giving ourselves permission to be publicly proud about it.

-That's good.

-Yeah.

-For me, I suffered in silence for decades because I knew that no matter what I said, no one was listening, so why deal with it?

But when I started to take my voice back and speak my truth and could not be silenced, I was like, "People need to know that they don't have to suffer in silence."

And if you don't want to hear my truth, that's okay.

And I'm not going to change my truth just to make you feel comfortable, because it's my truth.

And when I got my power back with that and started speaking, ooh, Mama always told me my mouth was going to get me in trouble.

But there's also a myth that women can't get along.

We are so much better and powerful together, helping each other, supporting each other, encouraging each other.

I learned a lot of things today that I didn't even know exist.

-I'm lucky enough to be very deeply involved in an organization that does promote service to veterans in the DAR, the Daughters of the American Revolution.

Service to veterans, veterans community support in the VA system, it's all there in that organization.

-Well, there's also the Women in Military Service Memorial for America, as well.

And I think you're an ambassador, right, Bambi?

-I just got appointed as a -- as an ambassador for South Carolina.

-And I love that.

-I'm involved with the VA.

I'm a Palmetto Pathfinder for South Carolina in the VA system, addressing suicides in the state.

It's a government -- governor's initiative.

I'm a deputy representative for the volunteer services for the VA. All of these things that I do, and having a nonprofit that's providing services and resources for women veterans, specifically addressing everything we're talking about here today.

You know, those women who are -- have no confidence, no belief that they deserve these services.

They have no idea that these benefits are even out there for them 'cause they've never pursued them before.

-Well, I know that I harassed Ashley for the longest time about -- about seeking her services.

So I want to turn to you, Ashley.

What held you up?

-Oh, gosh.

Well, I think -- I feel like it's easy to look at people we served with and feel like they saw more, went through more, suffered more.

Honestly, I think it was -- I don't know if it was shame or what, but I feel like that might have been -- Maybe it was some I didn't feel like I deserved it, which sounds terrible to even say that.

But I've come across lots of people that feel the same way.

All ages.

It's everywhere.

But I think it must have been a shame thing for me.

'Cause I was with the Army.

They served, you know, six months at a time.

And I was with them for a month, you know?

And so I guess I just felt like, suck it up, you know.

We heard that a lot, like, "Suck it up.

You're fine.

Just keep moving."

So I guess that's -- I guess that's my excuse.

-That feeling of, like, falling short of the title of veteran, is that something that you feel was manifested, like, in service, or do you -- and you carried it with you, or do you feel like being amongst other veterans that you've kind of put that on yourself?

Can you explain that a little bit more?

-Yeah, I mean, it's probably all self-imposed, but I feel like some of it came from one of my last duty stations.

I ended up -- I was on flying status, and I know it cost a lot of money to get me there.

And I had just recently gotten married, and my husband had been told he couldn't have children, and so I ended up getting pregnant inadvertently.

I didn't know, like I said, that we could even have kids.

So some of the people that I worked for thought that I did it on purpose just to waste Air Force money.

And I think some of the shame came from that.

They really were hard on me.

They wanted to give me a letter of reprimand, which is not legal at all.

But they were kind of like, "What are we gonna do with her?

What has she done?

She's wasted so much Air Force money."

-How could that person have handled that situation differently?

-I mean, I feel like they could have come to me personally and asked me just straight up, "Hey, I have this accusation.

Is this true?"

I mean, that would have been so simple, but instead it was like they -- I don't think they'd even said two words to me up until that point, you know?

So it was because of that situation, I almost feel like my service got cut a little bit short, which in the long run, I'm really glad everything worked out just like it was supposed to, but maybe some of it came from that, just the way I was treated in that situation.

-What was that transition like, hanging up your uniform yet still being so -- in such close proximity?

-It was weird.

I mean, it was nice 'cause I was still involved 'cause Bill was still in.

But I feel like there was just a lot of unfinished things.

Like, I still feel like, man, I wish I could have served longer.

I mean, I think most people that got out have -- I've heard them say that -- like, "I would go in again if I could."

-Unfortunately, that attitude happens to so many women in that kind of situation.

-Right.

-Like, "Oh, you got pregnant on purpose."

Do you think that that very same question would have -- would have been made from, say, a man?

-No.

-Bambi, what would you say to women veterans who have kind of stepped back from that veteran identity?

And how can we -- how can we empower them or encourage them to come into the fold?

-Sit down, have a lunch, have a conversation, find out their story, their history, and see if you can glean from that where it might have gone sideways for them.

And if you can address that, if you know the resources that are available, tell them those resources are there.

You know, but get -- breaking through that initial wall, if you will, finding out why they stepped back from it, why they didn't want to even acknowledge their service.

The one thing I hate doing is sitting down at a bar with all these male vets right before I'm to go into a room to give a talk to the women's auxiliary or to a women's organization of some kind or another, you know, and -- and they treat me like I don't even belong.

That mindset is still there in the Legions and the VFWs.

And VFW, of course, is even worse.

You know, "If you didn't serve in combat, we don't want you here.

If you weren't in a foreign war, step off."

And now they are finding that today, as their massive numbers are dying off, they are being more inclusive.

They have to open the doors.

They have to accept women veterans as members, full -- full members, not just auxiliary.

Because if they don't, their organizations are going to die.

They will be closed down.

There won't be anything left if they don't back off of their mindset, and they need to stop driving women away.

-Do you remember the -- I don't remember which convention it was.

It was one of the lettered VSOs.

Ashley and I were at one of those organizations, and a Vietnam-era veteran was coming up and talking to us about combat, and -- and he had no idea who Ashley and I were.

And he's like, "Oh, but you ladies wouldn't know that.

It was a combat thing."

Ashley and I just kind of gave each other a knowing glance and a wink, and that's -- that's life for a female veteran.

-Yeah.

Absolutely.

-Yes.

I would say advocacy.

I'm blessed to be the director of the Veterans Art Project where I'm at in Vista, California.

And when you start to tell your truth and you start advocating, it makes other women feel comfortable to be able to tell their truth and not just tell their truth, to sit in their truth.

And educating them on how to advocate for themselves and advocate that, yes, you are a veteran.

Yes, you deserve to get these benefits.

-The response I'm hearing repeated when I'm talking to these women out in the communities, the response that's most repeated is, "Well, I didn't serve in combat, so I don't deserve that," which, you know, that's where I have to plant my blow-up meter down and go, "What?

Where did you get that information?"

"Well, these guys told me that."

And it was always -- inevitably, it was always male veterans who had told them that -- they didn't deserve, they shouldn't be here, they shouldn't take any space for medical at VAs, they shouldn't have any part of it because they didn't go fight in the dirt.

-And that's why I said we do well at supporting each other.

So it's up -- it's up to us to continue to educate each other, to let each other know that, yes, you deserve your benefits.

Apply for your benefits.

-And you said it, Tonya.

Thank you so much for saying that.

Is that we have to be our own advocates so changes can happen.

And, Tonya, you're absolutely right when you say women are stronger together, and if we come together and we let each other know, "Hey, you are not alone in that feeling, and you do not need to be put in a broom closet, Bambi," because we have the power -- -I eventually got put in a real room after I had, you know, a little tantrum, meltdown.

But to be put in there initially was just horrifying.

-But we shouldn't be having tantrums.

We should just be saying, "Hey, we've earned these rights.

We deserve these rights.

And let's make it happen."

-Well, I know a lot of people, a lot of women and men that are in my shoes.

I would -- Like you said, you got to be your own advocate.

You really do.

If you served, you served, 'cause I think about -- Like, all the Vietnam vets that I've met at the -- at the different places, at the conventions that we went to, a lot of them would discount their service.

They were in two months or they were in, you know, six months.

But what they saw was tremendous.

Or some of them just were stateside.

But still, it counts.

Like, I think we have to quit discounting ourselves.

And I think we all have to be our own advocate, because we all deserve it.

We served.

This is one of our benefits.

And it's there for us.

I heard somebody that just retired from the VA say, "If you don't go get your benefits, the money's going somewhere else," and it's probably going to go in the pockets of people that don't really need the money.

So, why not go and -- and get what you served for?

That's what I think.

-I needed to go on this path and this journey and answer a few questions for myself.

And along that way, you know, I met the Bambi Bullards and the Tonya Savices of the world and, of course, Ashley Brokops.

And hearing -- hearing your stories, each and every one of them was validating me in knowing that I wasn't on this island alone, feeling what I felt, because each and every one of us had the same kind of experiences, generationally different but emotionally the same.

So whether you served 20 months or you served 20 years, whether you are a man or a woman, every -- every bit of service is honorable and it counts.

And I know we're sitting here talking about women veterans, the invisible veterans, but I think one day for the next generation, they will just be veterans.

And we can -- can drop the labels and we can set aside these boundaries, and we can talk openly and we can let our issues be known, be our biggest advocates, and become one really great community with the support of outside communities who know that veterans are a very diverse group and an inclusive group.

And that's what makes us so great.

So, Bambi, Tonya, Ashley, thank you so much for sharing all you did today.

And -- And thank you so much for your service.

-You're welcome.

-Thank you for your service.

-Yeah.

Thank you.

-Than you ladies for your service.

-Same.

-And welcome home.

♪♪♪ -♪ There will be light ♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪