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    This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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    Problematic redirect from one BLP to another: Rabea Massaad

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    WP:NAC: Resolved and recommended for closure. JFHJr (㊟) 05:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Rob Chapman and Rabea Massaad do not appear to be the same person, and no redirect between them should exist without any explanation at the redirect target, Rob Chapman (guitarist). The AfD of Rabea Massaad specifies a different redirect, and through a series of deletions and a double redirect removal, we're now in this mess. So after a PROD by another user has already been denied on *cough* *cough* procedural grounds, can we finally rectify this situation? The easiest way I can see is still simply deleting the Rabea Massaad page (without prejudice). Thank you. 2A02:8071:184:4E80:0:0:0:EAC0 (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:RFD looks like your forum. JFHJr (㊟) 05:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To clarify, Rob Chapman and Rabea Massaad are separate guitarists who once played together in a band called Dorje. The 2017 AfD for Massad resulted in a redirect to Dorje, and the 2023 AfD for Dorje resulted in a redirect to Chapman. Massad has a fairly robust online presence and is therefore a plausible search term. I mentioned him briefly at Rob Chapman (guitarist)#Dorje and edited the redirect to go to that section. By the way, Chapman and Massad are still close associates but the band is defunct. Cullen328 (talk) 18:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I added a reference verifying Massaad's role in Dorje. Cullen328 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So now we have a section of Rob Chapman's article which serves as the main Wikipedia mention of the band Dorje. There is also a redirect Dorje (band) which goes there. My recent edit updates the redirect Dorje (band) to point directly to the section of Chapman's article that mentions the band. Hopefully this is not a controversial edit. Now that Cullen328 has improved the referencing, I don't see anything else to be done, and suggest that this thread be closed. EdJohnston (talk) 18:39, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you to all for fixing this and not directing me to forum shop. 2A02:8071:184:4E80:55C6:F066:7215:3C99 (talk) 18:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Pretendian

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    Full of BLP and NPOV vio's, unencyclopedic language and unreliable sources. I removed a couple. [1][2]   Much of article reads like it was copied from a blog post or tabloid, and lack of proof of Native ancestry (and/or or not being enrolled in a tribe) is repeatedly conflated with lying. --Middle 8 privacy • (s)talk 18:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    ... and the two diffs above got reverted [3], restoring some really poor prose and sources. This is a very sensitive topic area and I don't want to bite anyone, but clearly the article needs more experienced editorial eyes and existing editors need to review WP:BLP (and hopefully realize the difference between editing an encyclopedia and human rights advocacy). --Middle 8 privacy • (s)talk 11:04, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless a published reliable source specifically describes the person as a "pretendian", they should not be on that notable examples list at all. BLP is clear on this - any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately. Isaidnoway (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    One problem is that while the article is about people who falsely claimed Native American heritage, its title is from a pejorative slang term, which it begins by defining. Perhaps a change of title along with moving information about the term Pretendian further down would help.
    Listing any notable people who have pretended to have native heritage is a recipe for imbalance and unwieldy length. Instead, we should find sources specifically about the topic to determine which persons are significant to the topic. It's more important to understand why this happens, how frequent it is and what damage it causes than to provide a hit list of perpetrators.
    TFD (talk) 15:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's more important to understand why this happens, how frequent it is and what damage it causes than to provide a hit list of perpetrators. Well said! Schazjmd (talk) 15:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The title strikes me as violating WP:POVTITLE; I'm skeptical that the term is common enough to pass WP:COMMONNAME for the phenomenon. If the article is going to cover the phenomenon and not the neologism (and currently, most sources in it don't use the term), it needs to be renamed to a descriptive title. The hard part is coming up with one. --Aquillion (talk) 16:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    A lengthy requested move discussion already occurred and nothing has changed with the term to warrant a title change in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pretendian#Requested_move_21_December_2021  oncamera  (talk page) 16:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • It seems fairly evident that the neologism and the phenomenon are both notable, but we shouldn't be covering the phenomenon under the neologism: I don't see evidence that "pretendian" is the dominant descriptive term even for high-profile cases of falsely claiming native ancestry. And it goes without saying that an absence of evidence of native ancestry is insufficient to list an individual on that page. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, if the article is titled "Pretendian", the only sources that could justify putting someone on the page is a source using the term "Pretendian" specifically. It's a sufficiently emotive neologism that we can't really WP:SYNTH someone into that category - any source that doesn't use the word "Pretendian" is useless. If we want a list of BLPs who fall under the broader concept, we would need a separate article for that; we can't label people with a neologism without a specific source using the term. --Aquillion (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That discussion is three years old, but more importantly, it doesn't address the WP:BLP / WP:LABEL issue. We can have an article on a neologism, absolutely; we cannot label individuals with a negative neologism unless we have a source using that precise word to refer to them. Any living person named in that article must have at least one high-quality source calling them a "Pretendian", using that exact word. Anyone who doesn't have that source backing up the fact that they have been called a "Pretendian", specifically, needs to be removed immediately until / unless that source is found - sources that use other words are useless (and WP:OR / WP:SYNTH in context.) --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The term "pretendian" is used frequently in news sources (some Canadian news outlets have dedicated reporters on a dedicated "pretendian beat". The term is used in academia (Google Scholar with Indigenous, Google Scholar with Native, to weed out the Spanish-language discussions). Indigenous identity fraud is used but not nearly as often. If you want to suggest a name change, the talk page of Talk:Pretendian would be the place to do it. Yuchitown (talk) 16:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In order for a BLP to be included in the notables examples list though, the derogatory term "pretendian" needs to be used frequently and widely published in high-quality reliable sources describing that individual as such, in order for the BLP to be included in that section per BLP and LABEL. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Isaidnoway, Aquillion and others. It's one thing to have an article on the concept and under that name. That might very well be justified if there are sufficient sources referring to it. However it's another to list living persons as pretendians. That needs sufficient sources establishing it's a common enough term used to describe this person. These sources needs to clearly use the term and not simply say other things such as the person has claimed Native American ancestry but it appears to be false. Likewise in others on the person, it's fine to mention controversies over any claims, but they should not be called or categorised as pretendians without sources. Nil Einne (talk) 07:54, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not a matter of what the article is named; the problem is WP:LABEL. For an emotive, negative term like "pretendian", we need, at the absolute bare minimum, at least one source actually describing someone as such using that precise word. Going "well these sources accusing them of indigenous identity fraud are essentially the same thing" is WP:SYNTH; in other contexts it might not be enough to worry about but in the context of applying a highly emotive label to a living person it's unacceptable. We can have an article on the term, but we can't use it as the general list for people accused of indigenous identity fraud because of that issue; all we can list there are people called "pretendian" specifically, using that exact word. --Aquillion (talk) 15:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's valid. Some people have been described as "pretendians" in published, secondary sources. I'd be fine with a separate list for Indigenous identity fraud since that's a more neutral descriptive term that is increasingly being used in scholarly writing. I've been slammed IRL but can find citations in the near future. Yuchitown (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a complicated issue (especially from a BLP perspective) and it seems like a lot of the long form sources note just how complicated an issue this is. I think that others may be right in saying that there may be multiple overlapping notable and perhaps less notable topics here which can be organized in a number of ways. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Vinod Sekhar

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    I'd appreciate it if some of you BLP experts could have a look at this article. I pruned it some already and found a curious mix of promotional language and possibly overstated accusations. Note: I just blocked an edit warrior from whitewashing it. Thank you so much, Drmies (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I've had a small prune and clean up. GiantSnowman 10:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Harald Walach

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    The "Controversy" section for this guy needs more eyes, I think. The first sentence merely states that he has "advocated for revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine, promoting holistic and homeopathic alternatives in his publications." and then links to a WP:PRIMARY source showing him writing about these topics. What's the controversy here?

    The last paragraph I removed because the RS link provided did not appear to say what was claimed in the paragraph (when I read the translation), but the author did insinuate a "scandal" not directly related to Walach, though. But it was reverted by @Hob Gadling who said I "don't know what I'm talking about" and that I'm "whitewashing" Walach. So, I'm hoping to get another opinion on this. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 23:06, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Finn McKenty

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    I would like to bring some attention to this BLP, as there is a particular claim that keeps getting reinstated, often with poor sourcing (including, so far, a Wordpress blog and WP:THENEEDLEDROP, which as self-published sources are unsuitable for claims about living persons). @FMSky: has been adding the content with the aforementioned sources, along with, as of writing this, two sources on the current revision I am uncertain about, morecore.de ([4]) and metalzone ([5]). I can't find discussions of either source at WP:RSN, so I would like to bring this here to get consensus on the sources and the material they support, rather than continuing to remove the material per WP:3RRBLP. Thank you. JeffSpaceman (talk) 03:38, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Its fine, he made these comments. Nothing controversial about it. Move on --FMSky (talk) 03:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see WP:NOTTRUTH. Even if he made those comments, they need reliable sources verifying them (i.e., not self-published sources). Simply put, Wordpress blogs and people's self-published YouTube videos cannot be used to support claims about living people. JeffSpaceman (talk) 03:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes here are 2 https://www.morecore.de/news/finn-mckenty-the-punk-rock-mba-verlaesst-youtube-ich-habe-es-nur-wegen-des-geldes-gemacht/ & https://www.metalzone.fr/news/208728-finn-mckenty-the-punk-rock-mba-aucun-interet-musique/
    We can also put in the video of him uttering these words as it falls under WP:ABOUTSELF --FMSky (talk) 03:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think citing the video itself as a primary source would probably be the best option here. JeffSpaceman (talk) 03:47, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Bonnie Blue (actress)

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    This biography of a pseudonymic pornographic actress (primarily notable for work on OnlyFans) was created on December 29 by Meena and is heavily sourced to tabloids and tabloidesque websites. Some of the sources don't support what they are cited for (e.g. the two cited for her attending a particular school, and misrepresentation of sources on whether she's from Nottinghamshire or Derbyshire). The date of birth is unsourced and the real name is sourced to a National World article that cites it to the Daily Mirror. I have tried an emergency initial BLP cutback; Launchballer has tried a more severe cutback; the original has been restored by an IP and by Tamzin Kuzmin with the most recent revert alleging vandalism and misogyny in the edit summary. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:33, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I went through that article and yeeted everything I could find that either did not check out or was sourced to an inappropriate source. I suggest draftifying.--Launchballer 20:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    ...and it's all been restored (again) by Tamzin Kuzmin. Who also happened to remove this initial report, replacing it with a report about an article they've never edited. Hmmm. Woodroar (talk) 20:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Metacomment. The reverting user was blocked. The block notice implicated WP:SOCK. So I removed the Oli London post here, but it's available at the diff above by Woodroar in case an editor in good standing cares to clean it up, talkpage it, and/or follow up here. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 00:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Poorly sourced Russian spies/ex-spies poisoning claim of Bashar al-Assad

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    Bashar al-Assad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) BLP attention is needed. On the talk page I have warned about the Russian spies'/ex-spies' Telegram claim of Bashar al-Assad being poisoned being too poorly sourced. Probably because of al-Assad's status as a fugitive wanted for war crimes and crimes against humanity and as an ex-dictator, few people seem to be bothered with leaving the rumour in place, despite the low quality of the sourcing that all point to a viral rumour based on the General SVR Telegram channel. The WP:WEASELly "may have been" and "it was reported that" seem to be seen as sufficient to justify propagating the rumour, without attribution to General SVR as the source of the claim. After half a day, none of the more regular mainstream media sources appear to have said anything about this, including independent reliable Russian sources such as Meduza and The Moscow Times. Currently there are two sentences with the rumour (one in the lead, one in the body of the article). Diffs:

    Boud (talk) 13:32, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I see, thanks for letting me know about it. Richie1509 (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    See also: Claims of Vladimir Putin's incapacity and death#October 2023 claims of death from the same source. Boud (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for clearing up this point, i was not aware of it. I will be careful in the future BasselHarfouch (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Joe Manchin

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    Today we have an unnecessary edit war on BLP outgoing Sen. Joe Manchin (and perhaps many other articles this morning) about the addition of infobox data which is factually incorrect at the time of insertion ([diff], diff]). Nobody is arguing the data, just the timing of the edit. While User:Therequiembellishere is one person jumping the gun, they are a longtime contributor here. Their position should be taken in good faith, IMHO. Also in my opinion, these edits are technically BLP violations because they impart incorrect information. Under policy, such clear BLP violations must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion (bolding from the original) by ANY editor. This sort of thing might lead to an edit war in which everybody is trying to do the right thing. Note: the page was correctly edited for the change; one click would have changed it at the proper time of transition.

    1. Does this sort of thing happen every opening of congress?
    2. Isn't this a potential future problem for BLPN, since edit wars on this are built-in to the apparent excitement of awaiting the actual moment of transition?
    3. I'm inclined towards timed page protection, but page protection is not normally done preemptively. Here's the page today literally under attack for BLP violations. If we know this is common for transitions of administration, isn't this an exception?

    While this noticeboard doesn't normally discuss policy, should we be aware of such disruption in advance? Making it harder for sooner editors like Therequiembellishere who feel... Well, I'll let them make their own affirmative position here if they wish. BusterD (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Page protections is the only way. IMHO, most editors who do these premature changes every two years, don't actually realize it's too early. They seem to assume once mid-night occurs, start updating. GoodDay (talk) 15:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I raise this issue not to cause a problem today. I'm not trying to unduly embarrass any editor for taking a position I don't agree with. On the other hand, we have established BLP policy the hard way through sometimes brutal disagreements about how to carefully calibrate opposing positions based on good faith argument. I trust the BLP policy because we earned it. We don't need to re-learn these lessons. But we could discuss how to proceed next time. BusterD (talk) 15:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    In agreement. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Under policy, it would be within the responsibility of any editor to revert these edits and report the editor to this board. But for my starting this conversation, it would be within my remit to revert the edits, fully protect the page and warn Therequiembellishere (and others). I haven't done that. I want the discussion about what to do next time. BusterD (talk) 15:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand, this is for the next time around when terms end & begin. PS - I should note, that the premature changes in the BLPs tend to have a ripple effect on related pages. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I've said everything I want on this on Manchin's talk. It's just a lot of pedantry by a few editors with obsessive fealty and exactitude that doesn't meaningfully help anything or anyone, least of all a casual reader. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Verifiability is not "pedantry". Members aren't sworn in until noon EST, correct? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I can understand changes being made about 1 or 2 hrs before the actual event, when dealing with so many bios. But 12 hrs before the event, is too early. GoodDay (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Obvious BLP violations are not pedantry. Those edits added provably incorrect information. Can User:Therequiembellishere provide a policy-based answer why those edits do not violate BLP guidance? This is just bad acting under the cover of labelling others. Do they not see that? BusterD (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Therequiembellishere's response here demonstrates we actually have a problem, at least with that user, whose reply here is non-responsive to the issue. BLP policy does indeed require obsessive fealty and exactitude, as long experience with this board has shown. As my OP suggested, any user might justifiably have reverted Therequiembellishere right into 3RR and immediate blocking, just by merely diligently following policy. Therequiembellishere might bookmark this thead for when it happens to them two years from now. I could have done it this morning, but instead chose to create this thread and invite the user to comment. Would preemptive full protection be a reasonable solution to such flippant disruption? BusterD (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I oppose pre-emptive full protection. I strongly support an immediate sitewide block of any repeat offenders, with the block to expire at noon Washington, DC time on the swearing in day. Cullen328 (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm with Therequiembellishere on this: a prediction, especially one based on clear US law, is not a false statement or a BLP violation. Joe Manchin's term does end on January 3rd, 2025, and that was still true on January 2nd, 2025. It's, in fact, been true for over a month now. The only way it could end on a different day would be if Joe Manchin had died before then, which would obviously be a BLP violation to assume.
    (Unlike Therequiembellishere I don't even think the opposition is pedantry. Pedants are technically correct; to say that the end of Joe Manchin's term was not January 3rd before January 3rd is not even technically correct. It's just false.) Loki (talk) 07:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    IMO the issue is not the term ending time but the claim Joe Manchin served as senator etc when he was still serving as a senator at the time. Nil Einne (talk) 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    For further clarity. I think our readers reasonably understand our articles might be outdated. So if the article says Joe Manchin is serving and his term ended a few hours ago or even a few days ago that's fine. I mean in other cases it's reasonable to expect them to even be weeks or months out of date. But if out article says Joe Manchin served, I think they reasonable would expect he is no longer serving. As I understand it, there's no more issue. But if this reoccurs, I'm not sure Cullen328's solution is correct. I mean if some admin is volunteering to mollycoddle each repeat offender then okay I guess. But otherwise the norm is we expect editors to obey our policy and guidelines by themselves without needing handholding in the form of continual blocks everytime something comes up to stop them. Therefore I'd suggest either an admin subject them to escalating blocks quickly leading up to an indefinite if they repeat perhaps under BLP or AP2; or we do it via community bans. While I'd personally be fine with a site ban, it might be more palatable to the rest of the community if we instead do it as a topic ban on making such changes. With a clear topic ban, hopefully an admin will be more willing to subject them to escalating blocks. Even if not, I think the community would be much more willing to siteban such editors if they repeat after a community topic ban. As a final comment, I also don't see why editor feels it's something so urgent that they need to do it 12 hours in advance. This almost seems one of those lame edits we sometimes get at the ANs resulting from the apparent desire of an editor to be first or get the credit so we have editors creating "drafts" with basically zero content long before there's anything to write about then some other editor is sick of this editor doing this and so ignores the draft and makes their own. Nil Einne (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Technically speaking, if you are still serving you also have served. So it's not technically speaking false, although this really is pedantry and I would not say it's the most true possible statement.
    I'm still not convinced it's a BLP violation, though. Loki (talk) 04:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @BusterD: maybe a RFC or something is required, to establish how to handle future premature changes to such bios. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Serious BLP vios in Gambino crime family

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    This article is riddled with serious BLP vios. I tried tagging them, but there are so many I would have to carpet bomb the page with CN tags. This page needs urgent attention from any editors with experience and/or sources pertaining to organized crime. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    P.S. I've taken a look at most of the articles on North American mafia groups and almost all have serious BLP issues. I've added "Category:Possibly living people" with its BLP Edit Notice to all of the pages excepting groups that have been defunct for more than thirty years. These pages are in rough shape and a lot of material needs to be either cited or deleted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Taylor Lorenz BLP issues and harassment of subject based on article contents

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    The Taylor Lorenz article has an unusual history in the sense that the contents of the article have led to harassment of Lorenz in the past, or other issues impacting her financially.

    Most recently it was regarding her date of birth and Wikipedia choosing to use a date range, with the allegations being that it was Lorenz choosing to keep her birthdate off of the Internet or being deceitful.

    1. FreeBeacon
    2. TimesOfIndia
    3. Lorenz Substack
    4. SoapCentral
    5. RedState
    6. Lorenz BlueSky
    7. Twitchy
    8. FoxNews
    9. BlueSky
    10. FreeBeacon

    There have also seemingly been issues according to Lorenz with errors in the article causing her lost business opportunities See here

    "This insane 100% false story is affecting my brand deals and some partnership stuff I have in the works for 2025, so I really need it corrected ASAP!!!"

    An addition of a 'Harassment and coordinated attacks' section was added in August of last year, with additional information being added shortly after regarding a Twitter suspension. I moved the text around recently in an attempt at a more neutral article that was quickly reverted. A TalkPage discussion followed shortly after but there hasn't been a policy based consensus.

    My question- should we have a devoted harassment section included for someone who has been harassed based on her Wikipedia profile previously? It seems like WP:AVOIDVICTIM comes into play with directly focusing attention on her being a victim and could lead to further harassment by highlighting it with equal weight as her career section.

    Personally I think the material could be presented more neutrally per WP:STRUCTURE but wanted to get a wider opinion.

    There is also a discussion currently going on if we should include her year of birth here. Awshort (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) 04:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) Fixed incorrect diff[reply]

    Removing the harassment section furthers the narrative that there are no coordinated harassment campaigns against her, and acts to diminish the effect those coordinated campaigns have wrought upon her. Generally speaking, victims of harassment don't want what they've gone through to be diminished.

    I am unaware of any evidence that discussing harassment on wiki for her, or in general, leads to further harassment. If that evidence exists, I'd certainly be wiling to change my stance. Delectopierre (talk) 08:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion on the scope of WP:BLPSPS

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    There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Self-published claims about other living persons about the scope of WP:BLPSPS. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 02:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    List of pornographic performers by decade

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    List of pornographic performers by decade is a remarkable article in that it has existed for 20 years and yet, if I were to follow WP:BLPREMOVE to the letter right now, I would have to cut the article down to its first sentence, the section headings, and a single see-also. Saying "X is a pornographic performer" is, obviously, a contentious claim, and as such every entry needs its own citation; it's not enough to rely on the articles as their own de facto citations, as is the tolerated practice for noncontroversial lists like List of guitarists. This is all the more the case because the definition of "pornographic performer" is subjective. With help from Petscan, I've found the following people on the list who are not described in their articles as pornographic performers: Fiona Richmond, Amouranth, F1NN5TER, Kei Mizutani, Uta Erickson, Isabel Sarli, Fumio Watanabe, Louis Waldon, Nang Mwe San, Piri, Megan Barton-Hanson, Aella (writer). Many (all?) of them are sex workers of some sort, so in each case, there may be a reliable source that exists that calls them a pornographic performer, but without one, it's a flagrant BLP violation. And if it were just those, I'd remove them and be done with it, but even for the ones whose articles do call them pornographic performers, there's no guarantee of being right. I removed Miriam Rivera from the list after seeing that an IP had removed the mentions of porn in her article, which had indeed been sourced to a press release about a fictionalized depiction of her life. No, each of these entries needs an individual citation appearing on the list article so that the claims can be judged.

    So, there are about 650 entries, and we know at least some are questionable, and we cannot assume that any of the rest are correct. What do we do? Again, the letter-of-BLP answer here is to remove the unsourced items, but that would leave literally nothing. The only two citations in the whole thing are to search pages on two non-RS porn databases. So at that point we might as well apply WP:BLPDELETE. Another solution would be to find sources for, I don't know, two or three people in each heading, just so it's not empty, remove everything else, and stick {{incomplete list}} there. A third option is AfD. Does anyone have any ideas?

    P.S. I haven't even looked at other lists of pornographic performers. Are they all like this? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 05:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't have a solution to this @Tamzin, but the first name I looked at was Isabel Sarli. Her article references her full frontal appearance and describes it as sexploitation. Sexploitation films are not pornographic films. I can't see any mention of pornographic acting in her article? This is a problem. Knitsey (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Doing some spot-checking, Kōji Wakamatsu is described in his article as a director of pink films but not as an actor – and it does not seem as though pink films are necessarily pornographic; Harry S. Morgan is categorised as a porn actor but the text of the article does not seem to support this. Clearly there's a problem here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 05:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm, yes, per WP:BLP each LP on this list should have a decent ref (better than Internet Adult Film Database, see [6]), and it wouldn't hurt the others either. I'm slightly reminded of a complaint I made at Talk:Holocaust_denial/Archive_21#Notable_Holocaust_deniers. It's not the same, but it's still sensitive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Btw, per List of pornographic actors who appeared in mainstream films and List of actors in gay pornographic films, it seems they're not all like that, but List of British pornographic actors lists people without WP-articles, my knee-jerk reaction is that that's not good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    List of British pornographic actors most seem to be referenced using "International Adult Film Database" which is user generated. Imdb for born actors. Knitsey (talk) 07:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Talk:List_of_British_pornographic_actors#People_without_WP-articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll be honest, I thought we'd dealt with this before and it was no longer a problem. I'm sure in previous discussions we're generally agrees such lists should only contain notable individuals with articles i.e. no black links or red links (if an editor believes someone is notable they need to create the article first). I thought we'd also agreed to strictly require inline citations when adding names regardless of what the individual articles say. I couldn't find many of the previous discussions though but did find we seem to have a lot more of these lists in the past. Nil Einne (talk) 09:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm aware of a few circumstances in which pornographic actors faced serious obstacles in their lives after leaving the industry and tried hard to separate themselves from their prior career. I would hope, in these cases, we respect their wishes and just leave them off. Simonm223 (talk) 12:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Depending on situation, we might or we might not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    My main concern is for people who have explicitly expressed that they no longer want to be public people, being honest. Those who have struggled to transition to non-pornographic acting, music, etc. is less of my concern. Simonm223 (talk) 12:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's understandable but it runs into issues with WP:PUBLICFIGURE where editors think that once someone is a public figure, it is forever.
    Recently there was I believe the son of a lady who had appeared in Playboy a long time ago who had asked for her article to be removed on BLPN. The specifics that I remember are vague, but essentially she had been a Playmate one year and editors had built an article for her even though she was a relatively private person other than the fact she was in Playboy in the early 80's. The family member had suggested that the article basically loomed over her head and caused harm to her reputation since it was something she did once 30+ years ago and distanced herself from almost immediately. I can't say i disagree that in cases like that, there shouldn't be an article.
    Awshort (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't aware of that specific case but that is precisely the sort of circumstance under which I think a private person's right to privacy should be weighed more important than Wikipedia completionism. Simonm223 (talk) 15:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm reminded of Richard Desmond per [7]. Other end of the scale, perhaps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Nil Einne You may be thinking of this discussion which you commented on.
    Awshort (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it was really that, although I did forget about it so thanks for reminding me. One of the issues with that list is since it was such a high profile case I felt it likely there would at least be secondary source coverage, and also as pornographic appearances go, I feel being Playmate is a lot less controversial than other stuff; so while it was bad, I didn't feel it quite as severe as most of the other stuff we're doing or have been doing. I was thinking of older discussions probably especially the RfC below. Nil Einne (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Given the lack of referencing and the entries included in error, pointed out above, then I would be in favour of removing every unreferenced entry on the list. If that leaves literally nothing, well - AFD. If somebody really wants this information, well, categories exist. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    • I knew we had a lengthy RfC/Discussion about this subject matter, it just took me a while to find it though – Unreferenced lists and porn stars RFC, and also this AfD as well. Discussions are ten years old, but I don't think anything in the lengthy close of the RfC has changed. I was one of the volunteers who helped add refs to this article → List of pornographic actors who appeared in mainstream films, which if I recall correctly, was the impetus for the RfC. Good luck, sourcing these types of lists are a massive chore. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      RFC closer said in 2014:
      Q: Should all pre-existing lists of porn performers have a reliable source supporting each entry?
      A: The rough consensus below is that it's always more controversial to call someone a porn performer than to say they're engaged in most other professions. A reliable source should be added for every entry that's challenged or likely to be challenged. But as a concession to the practicalities, editors are asked not to go through the pre-existing lists making large-scale and unilateral challenges, as this will overwhelm the people who maintain these lists with work, and there is a legitimate concern that this is unfair. If you do intend to remove unsourced entries, please proceed at a reasonable, non-disruptive speed dealing with what you judge to be the highest-priority cases first. If you could easily source an entry yourself, then removing it as unsourced is rather unhelpful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Well, removing ~650 entries after 10 years of the list's maintainers doing nothing to fix this would average out to, what, ~1.2 per week since that RfC? That seems like a reasonable, non-disruptive speed to me. Courtesy ping @S Marshall. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 16:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, I do vaguely remember making that close ten years ago. I agree that it's appropriate to implement its outcome in full now.—S Marshall T/C 17:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    chew chin hin

    [edit]

    https://www.ttsh.com.sg/About-TTSH/TTSH-News/Pages/In-Loving-Memory-Prof-Chew-Chin-Hin.aspx

    Dr Chew Chin Hin died — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrypttorfan (talk • contribs) 15:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks – I see you have already updated his article. Does anything more need to be done here? There's no need to discuss the deaths of every person who has an article on this noticeboard unless there's a particular issue. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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