Talk:James Gordon (British Army officer, died 1783)

Grave marker in honour of James Gordon at Trinity Church, NYC

This is really just a file note. The Rev. Kristin Miles https://trinitywallstreet.tumblr.com/post/140639582192/the-rev-kristin-miles-of-trinity-church-wall rang me today to give me an update on progress regarding the installation of a grave marker Trinity Church NYC will be erecting in honour of James Gordon. She told me that the extensive renovations currently ongoing at Trinity https://ny.curbed.com/2018/5/7/17320986/financial-district-trinity-church-renovation will be causing delays. She also said that the staff are finding it difficult to communicate with one another because everyone (200+ staff) is housed in separate temporary accommodation throughout Lower Manhattan. The Archive Department is, in the meantime, doing their best to establish where, within their two cemeteries, Gordon's unmarked grave is likely to be. They will eventually be able to send me a photograph of the marker and, hopefully, a link to some Newsletter-type written entry. Patience is not my strong point, but I must wait for further news. Kristin said she would ring me again in the New Year. Arbil44 (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Dormskirk - JG is listed here [1] as being buried at Trinity. Would it be possible to tell me who did this listing and when? I would like to be in touch with them if at all possible. They are right, of course, but I'd be interested to know their source. I have lots of sources to prove this burial, including the parish records(!), but Trinity are in so much chaos with their renovations, that even though they confirmed the burial in February this year, they are now saying they cannot find him buried there. I need more sources a.s.a.p. I have tried to link his name back to his page, but it only goes to a list of James Gordons. Why is that? Arbil44 (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Forget about my request Dormskirk. I have just found the following email (along with the scan of the original burial record) and sent it on to Trinity. They really are in a mess there: "From: Whitey Flynn <[email protected]> To: arbil44. Sent: Friday, 13 January 2017, 21:55 Subject: Re: Trinity Church, Wall Street, burial records. Greetings, Attached please find a scan of the burial entry you enquired after. There were burials conducted in the churchyard until the early 1800s. Best, Whitey Flynn, Archivist Tech." Arbil44 (talk) 09:14, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Dormskirk, at a time when I am totally frustrated by waiting to hear back from so many people, and feel like I am getting nowhere fast, at least just now I had a very productive telephone conversation with Trinity Church, NYC. The gremlin in the works turns out to have been the misspelling of JG's name, in their parish records, as "Gorden". I think they will be going ahead with a grave marker now, especially since the renovations to the church are now completed. Honestly, if only everyone could be like you - speedy with responses! Arbil44 (talk) 19:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The Gordons of Ellon

Dormskirk, could you weave the following information onto Gordon's page in your inimitable Wikipedia style? If I write it, it will read more like a novel.

Looking once more at Katherine Mayo’s book I see that James Gordon was from Ellon Castle. Mayo has this to say in her acknowledgements: “Colonel E W S Balfour, Commander of the Scots Guards and present head of the Gordons of Ellon;“. This, of course, goes back to pre-1938.

There is quite a fascinating piece here about the 3rd Earl – James Gordon’s father (James Gordon was the 3rd Earl’s illegitimate son) https://www.britainexpress.com/attractions.htm?attraction=1221 “One of the most fascinating of the Gordons to inhabit Haddo was George, the 3rd Earl. George was known as 'the wicked Earl' for good reason. He had a legal marriage, to Catherine Hanson of Yorkshire, by whom he had 5 children. He also had a family at Ellon Castle, also in Aberdeenshire, and yet another at Cairnbulg, near Fraserburgh. Not content with 3 households in Aberdeenshire, he managed a fourth 'marriage', maintaining yet another household at Wiscombe Park in Devon. He seldom visited Haddo and died with his favourite mistress at Ellon".

I'm going to try to track down the family of the late Major Peter Edward Gerald Balfour, CBE https://www.scotsman.com/news/obituaries/obituary-major-peter-edward-gerald-balfour-cbe-soldier-and-businessman-1-3015985 to see if I can learn more about James Gordon. I've emailed The Scotsman.

I'm like a cat on a hot tin roof at the moment - positively itching to make the forthcoming edits to this page. The wait seems interminable. Arbil44 (talk) 13:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, Dormskirk, I think I've done it. However, the reference to his father is not showing up correctly, and I haven't got the reference recorded correctly at the bottom of the page either. It looks like James Gordon had a brother, who was acknowledged by the 3rd Earl, whereas James doesn't appear to have been. Who is the creator of his father's page? I would like to communicate with them to see if I can learn more. I am basing the above information on the Mayo book's acknowledgement page. Arbil44 (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - Just got in from work and have tweaked the reference for you. The creator of the article on his father was User:Craigy144 but he is currently blocked from editing. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Dormskirk for sorting out the reference and quote reference position. Never mind about Craigy144, I think my best bet is to try to track down the family of the late Major Peter Edward Gerald Balfour, since I so often find myself retracing May's footsteps! Arbil44 (talk) 19:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - I would recommend that you remove this bit for two reasons (i) it is about the life of the 3rd Earl which is already reasonably well documented in the article on him and (ii) it seems to be copied word for word from britain express so is probably a breach of copyright. I would just say he was the illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl of Aberdeen. Best wishes and sorry. Dormskirk (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Would you edit it please, without removing everything? Or if you feel everything must come out, well do so. I hope to be able to find out more i.d.c. but had hoped something could be left here in the meantime. Arbil44 (talk) 23:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that the information that we should include is details of who James' parents were. Am I right in thinking that his father was the 3rd Earl and that his mother was the 3rd Earl's London housekeeper Mrs Forest? Was James Gordon the same person as John Gordon, who was born at Cairnbulg Castle, near Fraserburgh? (see the article on the 3rd Earl). Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 00:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, it is a little difficult to be sure. Gordon hailed from Ellon Castle, so it looks like his mother would have been the Earl's favourite mistress on that basis. I am just a bit uncomfortable with the fact that the Earl does not appear to have acknowledged him. However, I have seen reports elsewhere stating that Gordon was an earl himself. At this point in time I don't want to be too specific, but it is such a good story that it is a shame to cull it altogether in my view! I shall be trying to get more information, but it won't happen quickly I'm sure. Dormskirk, I'm about to load up two final images to my User page. I'm not happy about the inconsistencies with dates, in particular. It is so frustrating not to be able to fiddle with the captions, it really is. Could you help tomorrow, after I have finished the uploads? Would you mind also putting my contact details behind one of those collapsible thingies you have on your page covering up your massive amount of Barnstars!? Arbil44 (talk) 01:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

OK. I am sure we will have to cull it because at the moment it is a breach of copyright and wikipedia takes copyright breaches pretty seriously. Can we not simply say he was the illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl? I am happy to help with your user page but it may the evening before I become available as I am working during the day again. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 01:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

You must do what you think best Dormskirk. All I would say is that the quote is a very small section of the whole and I thought sections were permitted, but you must act as you see fit. What about if it was re-worded, with the link to the original article? No hurry with the other thing! Arbil44 (talk) 01:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I will leave it for the moment as it is clearly in quote marks but you may get objections. I have inserted a collapsible thingie. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the collapsible thingie! I feel a little bit safer with it in place! OK, we'll leave the article for the moment but I accept that it may have to come down. I just don't want to be banned on account of it...I just hope I can make contact with the Balfours, who appear to be related, so that I might get more information on Gordon. Arbil44 (talk) 01:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I've spoken to E W S Balfour's grandson, the Lord-Lieutenant of Fife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Lieutenant_of_Fife, for an hour this morning. It was a very interesting and enjoyable conversation. A lot more research is going to be needed because it seems James Gordon has been overlooked on account of having been unmarried and childless, therefore of no interest to posterity. Robert Balfour believes him to have been the elder brother to his ancestor, Mary Gordon. I shall be doing my best to establish the situation, which will take time. I will shortly be culling a lot of the above which has now been overtaken by events. If you have time to look at my user page that would be great, but don't worry if you are pressed for time. Arbil44 (talk) 13:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Your usebox looks fine. Is there anything that needs doing to it? Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 13:47, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not happy about the inconsistencies with dates, in particular. It is so frustrating not to be able to fiddle with the captions, it really is. If you think captions need refining in any way, please do so.Arbil44 (talk) 13:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I have tweaked the dates. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 14:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Arbil44 (talk) 14:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the most recent edits to the Gordon page. I have heard from The Lord-Lieutenant that he is reasonably confident Gordon is a member of his family (elder brother to Mary Ellon Gordon of Ellon who was his 4 x great grandmother) and all I am now waiting for is a link to his family tree for the details I need to insert. It is definitely looking as though James Gordon has fallen off the side of a cliff, record wise, presumably because he had no wife and no children, becoming worthless to history. That is disgusting of course. Arbil44 (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I've entered James Gordon's parents, but only his mother shows up - why? Could we take another look at the Wiki link which was here before I deleted several posts? It may not be relevant, but again it might. Arbil44 (talk) 10:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorted. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 10:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, but would you be able to find the Wiki link which I have stupidly deleted from culled posts? Arbil44 (talk) 10:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Apologies, but I have not been able to identify the link. On a seperate matter, I note that you have added a some unsourced material into the paragraph on "family". Please can you add a reference urgently. I would hate you to get into trouble again! Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand Dormskirk - I have stated facts, confirmed by Robert Balfour in several telephone conversations I've had with him. The information has come from him, the Lord-Lieutenant of Fife. Are you wanting his family tree liked to the Gordon page? I'm not sure he would agree to that. Just tell me what sort of links you need and I will see what I can do. I've just emailed Nick Kingsley asking permission to uplod an image from https://landedfamilies.blogspot.com/2018/09/345-balfour-of-balbirnie.html - an image of Major John Charles Balfour (1919-2009). Elder son of Brig. Edward William Sturgis Balfour (1884-1955) and his wife Lady Ruth (a son of E W S himself)! Arbil44 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - you cannot publish information on wikipedia based on a conversation (however distinguished the person you spoke to is). You need to use published sources as decribed in WP:CITE. Sorry! Dormskirk (talk) 13:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

PS - Is there any published information which supports the statement that the article subject was the son of James Gordon (1717-1750)? Especially given the previous suggestion that he was the son of the third earl of Aberdeen. If not the family section as currently drafted needs to be removed. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I was wrong about the 3rd Earl of Aberdeen and I removed that as soon as I realised I was wrong. I've only been researching this for 2.5 days! What was Mayo doing talking to E W S if there was no point in her doing so? Can we cite Mayo's book? Robert has more information in paperwork partly destroyed in a fire, which he says is very difficult to read, but he thinks it would have formed the basis of discussions with Mayo. He will try to read it, but cannot make promises that he will succeed. The Balfour Clan are even thinking about going over to NYC when Trinity erect a grave marker for Gordon. Everyone is very happy - why does Wiki have to make life so difficult, when it s not. We could link Mayo's book and the Landed Familes link I gave. Surely Mayo's acknowledgements in her book confirm that there is the link to the Balfours and the current generation confirm that too. Arbil44 (talk) 14:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - In fairness to wikipedia the rules are there to stop people from publishing inaccurate information not least because of some previous howlers! I don't believe that we can cite Mayo's book unless it specifically confirms the subject's parent hood (which is the issue in question). Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Removed, with the greatest sadness imaginable. This wonderful man has been ill served by history.Arbil44 (talk) 14:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I am sure that you will appreciate that I am trying to keep you out of trouble, given your prevous experiences! Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, dear Dormskirk - I know you have my back. I'm just sad that my good friend, James Gordon, is an orphan once more! He deserves so much better and I will try, if I can, to do better by him i.d.c. because what I wrote, is, I am sure, correct and I will try to prove it if at all possible! I hope to God I'm not going to be going through all this again when I publish an extract from the Journal very soon now...Arbil44 (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

You rightly refer to my 'previous experiences' but they were very different. Every single thing I ever wrote about Asgill was true - and it took me nearly 3 months to rebuild that page after it had been destroyed. There was not one single solitary issue that I was proved wrong about (in spite of spending weeks and weeks proving my point/s). It brought me to my knees and a nervous breakdown!! I have appreciated having you by my side since though, so thank you again. Arbil44 (talk) 14:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I completely understand. Many thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 15:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad you do, and I had hoped that would be the case. While contact here may die down now, do please call me Anne - my identity was blown a long time ago, and I no longer care about that - I have nothing to hide! I know you are smart (!) but had you worked out that Arbil is Libra backwards?!! Anne. Arbil44 (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - Thanks for letting me in on the secret! Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 16:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

An email just in from Robert - note his last sentence - he is keen to claim James Gordon as one of his own! "Dear Anne, While you were typing your email I was searching Scotland’s people – I have not as yet found our James Gordon’s birth – interestingly I could not find my direct ancestor Mary Gordon’s birth either though I did find her marriage – interestingly she was married in Markinch, her husband’s church. I assume the custom was normally to be married at the bride’s home as now – maybe she had no parents though by 1771 when they were married Ellon had been sold. I am not finished! Kind regards, Robert" I'll leave all this there and hope we have happy news one day to add to Gordon's page. Anne Arbil44 (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds encouraging. The page does look incomplete without (cited) details of who is the subject's parents are. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

This is getting beyond ridiculous. Now I've uploaded a file from Pinterest, of the 80th regiment officers' uniform and I'm being told this:Image without license Unspecified source/license for File:80th Regiment of Foot (Royal Edinburgh Volunteers) Officers Uniform.jpg Copyright-excl.svg Thanks for uploading File:80th Regiment of Foot (Royal Edinburgh Volunteers) Officers Uniform.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. Even if you created the image yourself, you still need to release it so Wikipedia can use it. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag. I'm out of my depth - I gave the link to the actual page https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/53691420528036876/?lp=true, what more do they want? Dormskirk, could you please get me out of a mess I never thought I would be in and put this image unter the one of the Morris House please? Arbil44 (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

This is a copyright issue. As you know I am not a copyright expert, but unless you took the photo, you don't own the copyright and cannot therefore upload it to wikipedia. Dormskirk (talk) 20:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

But don't worry about it: it will get deleted in due course. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Would you be able to link it instead? Just as the Pinterest Man in the Moon is a link only on the Mary Ann page. Could we get round it that way instead Dormskirk? The link is above. Arbil44 (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 21:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much Dormskirk. Now my next nightmare begins...I have received permission from the US for the image of 'Timothy Day's Tavern' to be uploaded to Asgill's page. This is history changing since nobody knows that this is where he was imprisoned, so is really important. This is the beginning of weeks and weeks of nightmare. Been there, done that, got the scars of war to prove it! I will ask for Cordless Larry's help since he went through this with me over Asgill's Coat of Arms! He doesn't know yet, but he sooon well!! Anne. Arbil44 (talk) 22:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, his area not mine. Good luck! Dormskirk (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Dormskirk - do you think the following link would do for the purposes of James Gordon getting back a family? Do remember that back in the 1730s record keeping was often incomplete. Fires and floods have happened since, to further destroy records. Personally I think this is OK http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/descend.php?personID=I42971&tree=CC But I've passed it on to Robert, so let's see what he thinks of it first. Anne Arbil44 (talk) 15:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - The guideline is WP:RS which refers to "reliable, published sources". It also says that "content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is also generally unacceptable" and gives ancestry.com as an example of an unacceptable source. I think we would need to know where "clan macfarlane genealogy" material came from. Dormskirk (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Let's first see what Robert's reaction is, since it is his family tree. I'm sure he'll have something to say, but I'll bear in mind your comments :-( I'll see if Samuel Graham's book is on Google Books for an easy search because I don't have his book any more - I must have got it from a library somewhere. Anne Arbil44 (talk) 16:30, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, that was a brainwave - since we now have Gordon's mother! I have bricks to build on now and hope to find who his father was - and Robert may be able to help here. "Memoir of General Graham: With Notices of the Campaigns in which He was etc"...edited by James John Graham. Chapter the Third https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F4dnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=General+Samuel+Graham&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDzL3F1OzlAhVlu3EKHS4zCbgQ6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=Glen%20Gordon&f=false Gordon’s mother was Glen Gordon, whose brother was Governor Glen, keeper of the palace. Please will you give our orphan a mother now. I'll add more when I know more. I'm still ploughing through Chapter 3 in the hope of finding more. Arbil44 (talk) 17:41, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Maybe he didn't have a father, or at least one who acknowledged him. His mother was the Housekeeper at the palace of Linlithgow. All Housekeepers are called Mrs., whether married or not. And the stress on the title 'Mrs' suggests she was not. https://www.electricscotland.com/history/edinburgh/chap23.htm She did a great job of bringing James up to be a man dearly loved by all who knew him. I'm a little sad by the end results, but does it matter where you come from, so long as you leave a legacy of love behind you? Will you add this new link? I have not heard back from Robert yet and, who knows, he may have something to add, but my guess is that he will be cancelling his tickets to NYC for the gravestone ceremony! Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow Dormskirk (no wonder you are the boss here, not me)! It goes entirely against my character, but is of course necessary! - I am over-excitable and always get carried away! But I still got to the finish line in record time all the same. And Librans are all about justice at the end of the day - and justice has now been done for James Gordon. Anne Arbil44 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

You really couldn't make this up...a book has just come out in which Gordon's mother features. She really must have been quite a character. I shall get myself an early Christmas present. https://www.linlithgowgazette.co.uk/news/people/linlithgow-lives-on-in-new-book-1-5023829 Arbil44 (talk) 23:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I have a funny feeling we just might find that Elizabeth Glen (yesterday's idea) and Glen Gordon just might be one and the same woman. Anyway, here http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I92061&tree=CC it is stated that Glen Gordon did marry. Miss Glen married Mr Gordon of Ellon Park (the name of a Gordon of Ellon appears as a trustee with Graham of Airth among the family documents) and was known in the family as Mrs Glen Gordon, she lived in the palace of Linlithgow; her relations, the Linlithgows, had charge of it; the soldiers after the Battle of Falkirk lit fires on the hearths which endangered the palace. Mrs Glen Gordon appealed to the General (who had been defeated "Very well," she answered, "thank God I can fly from fire, as well as you did the other day." The palace was burnt down! Mrs Glen Gordon's family consisted of four very handsome daughters and two sons [note by Anne, one being James Gordon?]; on George III. ascending the throne, Mrs Glen Gordon went to court; she was still a most beautiful woman and had been quite a Ninon de l'Enclos, she told the King she had a daughter married in each of his four kingdoms. "I have heard of three," he said, "but never of four." "Did your Majesty never hear of the Kingdom of Fife," was Mrs Glen Gordon's reply! http://inchbrakie.tripod.com/abookofthegraemes/id67.html Can you get that link to work Dormskirk - I can't - and it could hold valuable information. To cut to the chase, I think [well, know actually] I have found the right family tree now. What do you think? And I think we have a father for James too. Mayo records James Gordon being "gay in gay London with Lord Cornwallis" so clearly they had links to London and court life too. Can you join the discussion please? Anne Arbil44 (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

There were brackets round the link which wouldn't work - removed brackets - it's now working! I think this is really shaping up nicely now and hope you agree? I'm starting to feel more relaxed about it all and really feel we are stepping into James Gordon's family and getting to know them. There are so many accounts about Mrs Glen Gordon on Google books, and the w.w.w. generally that I think this is really stacking up. Please say more than "Done"! Arbil44 (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - Yes. It's coming on fine. As you will know from your research on Asgill, it takes months, if not years, to properly research your subject and you probably need to let your research develop and mature before rushing to publish anything more on James Gordon's parentage. The situation is not helped by the fact that there seem to be quite a few people at the time with the name "James Gordon". Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 10:13, 16 November 2019 (UTC)Y

Continuation of Gordons of Ellon

You don't consider there is enough here to give Gordon a father - Gordon of Ellon - now we know he has a mother who married him? It brings full circle the original clue given by Mayo in her acknowledgements. I'd feel happier if he had a father too and will then leave Wikipedia while I get on with this new project. Have you ever seen 'Outlander'? The Scots seem to have been known by their Clan name quite often. I have contacted Andrew MacFarlane regarding his family tree website which has thousands of attachments/documents in the hope he can isolate any of interest to me. I shall mull all this over with Robert too and I shall try to get hold of that book as well. It is clearly already published but I cannot for the life of me find out how to actually buy it. Given your superior IT skills, any chance you could find me a link to be able to purchase "Linlithgow Lives" by Bruce Jamieson? Arbil44 (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I think it needs more work to confirm the father and to identify the father's birth date and death date (as there seem to be many Gordons). "Linlithgo Lives" does not seem to be on Amazon so I suggest you order it at a bookshop. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 11:18, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

A bookshop? What is a bookshop?! "Thereafter copies of the book will be available in “Madding Crowd”, the Linlithgow Museum and Linlithgow Post Office". And nobody will take a credit card over the phone. I'm doomed. OK Dormskirk. I'm off now. Arbil44 (talk) 11:43, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Please will you get Glen Gordon's brother, Keeper of Linlithgow, correctly recorded, as here: https://www.scottish-places.info/people/famousfirst1578.html My family historian has confirmed that Elizabeth Glen (Gordon) is one and the same woman as Glen Gordon and she married James Gordon of Ellon. I doubt I will get dates of birth and death, but I will continue to try. I managed to order the book, thank God. Arbil44 (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

The dates, while desirable, are not essential. We just need confirmation from a reliable published source either that the subject's father was also named James Gordon or that Elizbeth Ellen was married to a James Gordon (from which we can infer from the surname that the subject was her husband's son). Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I've just lost everything I wrote, which is maddening. The uncle was Governor of South Carolina, then Keeper at Linlithgow - you haven't used my link to that Dormskirk. My family historian says I was right first time round about Elizabeth Glen being connected to the Balfour family and, therefore, Robert, the Lord Lieutenant of Fife. The MacFarlane website is first class and has thousands of published sources, but I just cannot sort the wood from the trees on there and have asked them to isolate the ones relevant to James Gordon. I don't think the sister of the Governor of South Carolina would have been a Housekeeper in the sense we understand it today, especially not one used to having chats with King George III. While so many Google books mention that term, must we repeat is verbatim on the page? I am being told that James Gordon is from a very distinguished (noble?) family, so let's not downplay him, especially as the picture is beinging to emerge of that being the case. I want to get all this sorted out as quickly as I can, and before I make the big edit to link to the Journal. I don't know if I will achieve it all as quickly as I want to though. So far we know James Glen (1701 – 1777), Governor of South Carolina and then Keeper of Linlithgow – uncle of James Gordon – proved - James Gordon (1717-1750), father of James Gordon (on Robert’s family tree, so not proved) Elizabeth Glen, mother of James Gordon (on Robert’s family tree, so not proved although stated as such in the Samuel Graham book)4 sisters and 1 brother to James Gordon – proved on the MacFarlane quote above. Arbil44 (talk) 15:33, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Reference now added and housekeeper bit deleted. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 15:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Would you be able to include "Governor of South Carolina"? Governor is very vague and could be of the Bank of England! I don't know if you are prepared to take a look at this MacFarlane link http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I42971&tree=CC - there are thousands of referenced documents there. Could you possibly look for the ones which source the Glen/Gordon page there? I just feel overwhelmed when I am confronted with such a vast array of evidence. And we're having people over for lunch tomorrow so I must drag myself to the kitchen, when I'd far rather stay with JG! Arbil44 (talk) 16:02, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Amended and linked to the wikipedia article on James Glen. I have already looked at Clan Macfarlane Genealogy. It is sourced from Stirnet, the reliability of which is dubious (see Discussion here). I think it should be used as a guide at best. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 16:25, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I've found James Gordon's mother's gravestone. I think it really must be hers. It means JG was not telling the truth when he offered to go to the gallows instead of Asgill though - because he said he had no mother or wife to mourn him. However, who else's grasve could this be? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/98279086/elizabeth-gordon What do you think Dormskirk? Arbil44 (talk) 16:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

The link keeps closing on me as soon as I open it so I cannot tell. Dormskirk (talk) 17:01, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

That's a shame - it works fine for me...the wording reads:

Elizabeth Glen Gordon Birth unknown Death 7 Mar 1792 Burial Greyfriars Kirkyard Edinburgh, City of Edinburgh, Scotland Memorial ID 98279086 · View Source

   Memorial
   Photos 2
   Flowers 2

Aged 80 years Widow of James Gordon of Ellon Mother of Lt. Gen. Andrew Gordon (she is supposed to have had 2 sons and JG had already died by then) Arbil44 (talk) 17:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I can now open it. I think it is the right Elizabeth Glen. I think the gravestone itself is reliable evidence that she was married to "James Gordon of Ellon" and therefore the subject is the son of "James Gordon of Ellon". I will add it to the article. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank goodness. It means JG has a mother, father, brother and uncle now! I am pretty devastated that he lied though, but in a good way, to make people feel it would be OK for him to die instead of Asgill. It makes him an even nicer man than he already was. The good thing about this is that I can take it all more slowly now. I will find more, but in slow time. Arbil44 (talk) 17:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Great. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:33, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, but now we know his mother's dates were (1712-1792) and his fasther's dates were (1717-1750) and that he has a brother (could he be mentioned as well) could his parents go into the top box? Arbil44 (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Done re the mother and father. I am not sure that the brother is notable: we should only be including the information if it meets to the notability test. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

He's notable enough to be on Wikipedia, so he must qualify! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Gordon_(British_Army_officer) Arbil44 (talk) 17:53, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

A lieutenant-general definitely qualifies. Sorry - I did not immediately make the connection. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't find him on Wikipedia either - I had to go to Google to spot him! I am happy that JG has a family now, I really am. I wanted it to be this way before adding Asgill's letter excerpt - very soon now. How weird that all this started with me just glancing at Mayo's acknowledgements! From little acorns... massive long threads ensue!!! Arbil44 (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Now I have emails from WikiCommons about the images I asked to be deleted earlier because I didn't like the captions. Could you keep a watchful eye out for pictures making a rapid exit from my Userpage please Dormskirk? I've no idea what they are saying about all this. Arbil44 (talk) 18:36, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

They may get deleted. Once they have been deleted, then just reload them with more descriptive captions. I can help place the reloaded pictures for you. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 18:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I've just heard from Robert. In case you had any uneasiness I'll repeat his email here, but also here is a link http://www.edwardjdavies.info/PMs/balfour.htm showing the connection between JG's father (James Gordon of Ellon) and Robert's ancestor, Mary, who was the sister of James Gordon of Ellon - JG's aunt. "I am sorry not to have replied to any of your emails but we have had guests this weekend. Mary’s mother was Elizabeth Glen. From my family history manuscript there are only 2 daughters mentioned, Mary and Elizabeth [so now we know the names of 2 of JG's sisters too - or am I getting brain warp and does that mean two of his aunts?] - I must try and read the manuscript about the Gordons of Ellon. The Gordons of Ellon where a small family and only owned the house [Ellon Castle] for 3 generations. I agree with your assumptions and I don’t believe Katherine Mayo and my grandfather were wasting each other’s time. And the 4th daughter in the 'Kingdom of Fife' was Mary. It fits" So that means the story about Elizabeth Glen's chat to King George III was true. The story is here http://inchbrakie.tripod.com/abookofthegraemes/id67.html. Is it possible to quote the two paragraphs concerning Elizabeth Glen? - they paint a very good picture indeed, and especially the chat with King George III. What do you think? It is a tiny section of the whole. Separately, you know how Google gives a short summary of what is on the link - well, one of JG's sisters went to America with him when he was fighting in the War of Independence! It is a marvellous story, but the Google book to which it is linked does not give full previews of the page, so I guess I cannot mention it here. It is a crying shame, because that really is a story! Here's the Google book link, but it won't expand: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1RBWAAAAMAAJ&dq=Elizabeth+Glen%2C+wife+of+James+Gordon+of+Ellon%2C+and+generally+known+as+Mrs.+Glen+Gordon&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Elizabeth+Glen I wondered who Justin Bergereau might be, and sure enough that story is true and mentioned in another Google book which won't expand https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HIcZAQAAIAAJ&dq=Justin+Bergereau&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Justin+Bergereau We could just about write a book on James Gordon now! Arbil44 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - Personally, I don't think we should mention any more on Elizabeth Glen here. The article is about James Gordon and we would risk going off-subject. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 00:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, fair enough - an article on Mrs Glen Gordon will have to be my next project, after all the dust has settled elsewhere! The book about Linlithgow is on its way to me and hopefully will provide more to say than is already available. I know that I have to find more, because I have been told today that I have only touched the surface (by my family historian friend, who simply will not spill the beans). How about we mention that Mary Queen of Scots was born at Linlithgow? And could we use the nice image on this site too? https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=active&sxsrf=ACYBGNR2Qj_7dflBsLsljU5JKNM6R9X7jw%3A1573952622921&ei=bpzQXeDuN-2ChbIPqLSXoAQ&q=where+was+mary+queen+of+scots+born&oq=where+was+mary+queen+of+scots+born&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39i70i251j0j0i22i30l3.27219.38542..42045...0.3..0.192.5566.0j32......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i304i39i70i251j0i13j35i39j0i273j0i131j0i20i263j0i22i10i30.E2fJRiRAx3g&ved=0ahUKEwjg3e23hvDlAhVtQUEAHSjaBUQQ4dUDCAo JG must have been born there. Arbil44 (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

If you are considering an article on Mrs Glen Gordon remember that you have to demonstrate notability first. Mary Ann Mansel was easy because she was lover to two senior British Army officers, General Robert Manners, who was Equerry to King George III, and General Sir Charles Asgill, Equerry to Frederick, Duke of York. Mrs Glen Gordon may be more challenging! Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Time will tell Dormskirk. I have had a carrot put under my nose today - and although I may be getting the wrong vibes, it is looking as though our housekeeeper may actually be a Countess or something...I don't know yet...I shall eventually get the said family historian to tell me if I don't find out myself, so don't be too quick to slap me down! Someone who could quip with a king must have been a 'somebody' wouldn't you say? Arbil44 (talk) 01:18, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm putting this here for my future reference as I may not find the email later: "What you have on the Wiki page does not go beyond the words you found in your source documents so I doubt it will be challenged, but unfortunately it doesn’t give any true sense of James Gordon’s early life. I think you will find his origins were not nearly so humble as you seem to imagine." Is that a carrot, or what?Arbil44 (talk) 01:33, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm just thinking aloud here, but I wonder if she is related to Mary Queen of Scots, who was born at Linlithgow? It's just a possibility, that's all, since right now I have no idea what Meg is on about! Arbil44 (talk) 09:12, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Dormskirk, is there any way of accessing this e-book? Nothing happens when I click on the pdf. icon. https://www.worldcat.org/title/glen-descendants-of-george-glen-1724-1804/oclc/609269695/editions?referer=di&editionsView=true#%2528x0%253Abook%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529format

It does not work for me either. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 18:10, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

What a shame! It is only available in libraries in the US otherwise. Not for sale anywhere. Arbil44 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm getting absolutely nowhere with my apparently missing 'early life' of JG, but here is the link between the Gordons of Ellon and the Balfour family. This Robert Balfour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Balfour,_6th_of_Balbirnie is JG's nephew (the son of his sister Mary) and is clearly the link made by Mayo and the current Robert Balfour's grandfather (who was, back in 1938, head of the Gordons of Ellon). Can we link him somehow incase anyone else has the same lightbulb moment I had when reading Mayo's acknowledgements? Arbil44 (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 23:12, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Yet another "Done" - thanks Dormskirk! I'm so fed up looking for what didn't appear to be there that I finally turned to Wikipedia and, possibly, I may have found what Meg was urging me to look for? Jacobite rising of 1745 (which JG's mother was passionately involved with - see earlier links) Cosmo Gordon, 3rd Duke of Gordon supported the British government during the rising of 1745.[8] However, his brother, Lord Lewis Gordon, raised two Jacobite regiments against the Hanoverians.[8] The Gordon Jacobites fought at the Battle of Inverurie (1745), the Battle of Falkirk (1746) and the Battle of Culloden (1746).[9] - this 'feels' like what Meg was urging me to look for. How I will prove it without her help is another matter. She has so many resources at her fingertips, which I don't have. What do you think? might I be on to something that JG is related to the 3rd Duke of Gordon? I wonder if the book I've ordered will help with this? Arbil44 (talk) 23:24, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - Unfortunately I am unable to offer any guidance as to what might be in the book! Please remember the notice at the top of every talk page that "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." I am very happy to help with specific requests for improvement but using talk pages as a forum will get you into difficulty again. Sorry! Dormskirk (talk) 23:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Could you tell me how I get 4 A4 pages of information (in Word documents which can be C&Ped) to you to sift through and decide what can and what cannot go on the article's page? My talk page perhaps (although I had hoped never to have to go back there)? The Lord Lieutenant has typed up in Word the notes his grandfather would have discussed with Mayo and I have typed up in Word the chapter on Mrs Glen Gordon from Linlithgow Lives which arrived in the mail this morning. I hope you will look at this - we've both gone to some trouble to get it to you. I'm beginning to think what Meg had in mind was all that happened at Linlithgow up to the time JG was 11 years old (i.e. early life) - he would have remembered it all. Arbil44 (talk) 14:56, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi - I suppose there is no reason why you cannot post the material to your talk page but it would be best if you could pick out the notable material from it. Remember of course that you will need a reliable published source for each piece of information. There is no reason why you cannot edit the article yourself providing you observe wikipedia's guidelines. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 18:30, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

(a) I'm hoping all will be clearer when you see it (on my talk page) and (b) I would like to see, in particular, the story of the murder of the two children and Mrs Glen Gordon's encounter with King George III. And perhaps not just links, but some text about the Gordons contact with Bonnie Prince Charlie. These are interesting stories and while one was before JG's lifetime, it is still part of his family history and (c) I'm hoping you will be interested? (having been in on this from the outset). Not bad to have achieved all this within a week! There's nothing more to find - well, I don't think so. Arbil44 (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I have taken a look and agree that this is interesting stuff. I think it would possible to weave in a sentence or two about James Gordon's wife explaining her feistiness and using the encounter George III as an example. I am struggling a bit more with the murder - were the murdered children James Gordon's uncles? Would have known them? Dormskirk (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The murdered children were the children of his grandfather, another James Gordon, so they were his great-uncles, so, no he would not have known them. However, it got into the newspapers and would never have been forgotten. Even today Robert is quite moved by the story (he rang me when he sent his notes over by email). It's up to you how you handle this, or not...but I think the episodes with Bonnie Prince Charlie are important and JG would have been 10 and 11 during the mentioned episodes, so would have been well aware of what was happening. I think the King George III story is important too - there are several subliminal messages in the short story, which, given it is only a small segment of the entire publication, could probably be quote in full "...." couldn't it? The feisty woman was his mother, not his wife, the latter being quite a shock and something I cannot confirm one way or the other for the moment. It will be easy enough to add a wife later if necessary. Arbil44 (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the story of the murdered children, while very interesting, is too off-topic for an article on James Gordon. I think you could include a sentence on the encounter with George III but not a quote. Remember this is an article on James Gordon. You might also include a sentence on the encounter with Bonnie Prince Charlie. But what are you going to use as your source for that? Dormskirk (talk) 20:23, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I have included a sentence or two on the encounters with George III and Bonnie Prince Charlie. On reflection as the quotes are short, I have chosen to use them: but we are slightly at risk of being accused of going off topic. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for including the story about George III - all the stories are in Linlithgow Lives by Bruce Jamieson which I spent the morning typing up (the original is in very small type, so no mean feat!) - so the source is that book. Could we put in more about the fountain running with wine? That story is in dozeens of books as well as the one I typed up today. I really would like that image I found of the fountain too (link on my talk page) because JG would have played round it throughout his childhood and would remember the visit of Bonnie Prince Charlie (can we call him that?) What do you think about the controversy over whether Glen Gordon and James Glen were siblings? Jamieson says no and Samuel Graham says yes. How to decide? I don't know if the former has new information, but the latter knew JG very well indeed and probably his mother too. Arbil44 (talk) 22:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for giving JG a bit of a back story - he becomes more rounded when not only associated with the Asgill Affair. However, Jamieson's publication (published in October 2019) is now beyond doubt the most extensive source material for everything to do with JG's 'Early Life' - all the stories are there. I really think that needs to be given rather than 'Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland', published in the 1880s. It may not be online, but it is 2 A4 pages devoted to one person. Arbil44 (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

As regards Linthigo Lives, please can you provide the pages numbers for bit about Elizabeth Gordon. We need to quote the page numbers if we are citing the book. The material we have now included on Elizabeth Gordon is already as long as the section on James Gordon's military career. If we include any more on Elizabeth Gordon it will just get deleted by other editors and rightfully so (and there will be a lot of anguish and criticism of Wikipedia from yourself)! Regarding Linlithgow you have surmised that James Gordon was brought up there but do you have a reliable published source for that? Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 23:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

How well you know me Dormskirk! And how right you are! Page 11 to answer your question. I can put a lot more in about JG from both Mayo and Graham's books, but can I quote in full some of the passages? I am no good at precis. Arbil44 (talk) 23:23, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I've seen no specific dates, not even from last month's publication, but it would seem she was in charge of the Palace possibly even before her marriage. I can see no indication that JG was not born at Linlithgow. "Mrs Glen Gordon seems to have secured a position in Linlithgow Palace – either as an official custodian or as someone commissioned to run the household affairs. Living in the royal residence, she must have been aware of the stories concerning the beautiful carved fountain in the centre of the inner courtyard: how it depicted the Court of King James V with water representing the king’s benevolence pouring from the crowned summit and falling over all aspects of 18th century life – real and mythological..." (from Jamieson's book). Arbil44 (talk) 23:32, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd love the following passage from May's book to be included, but please don't ask me for a precis: "James Gordon, First Major of the Eightieth Foot, was, like his regiment, Scottish to the core. Middle-aged, tall, rather heavily built, one glance at the man revealed his character. Frank as the sun and as friendly, brave to a fault, and as generous, utterly self-forgetful in the face of others' needs, neither the activity of his mind nor the dignity and cheerfulness of his spirit would bow to the worst of days. His soldiership, as displayed in the two past years of campaigning, had won him Lord Cornwallis' special praise - coupled once with an aside: 'When I first knew Gordon, twenty years ago, gay in gay London, who could have guessed how much lay in the man?’" Arbil44 (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The most reliable published source on all of this, now, is Jamieson's book. He has brought all the stories together in one chapter on Glen Gordon. The stories are all over Google books too, but he has simply brought the whole together in one place. Glen Gordon was JG's mother, so what happened to her happened to him too - and he was 10 when Bonnie Prince Charlie (please can we call him that, at least in brackets) came to the Palace at Linlithgow. And can the picture of the fountain be included too? Arbil44 (talk) 23:59, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Just to add, this is how I got hold of a copy of jamieson's book, which arrived this morning: https://www.facebook.com/events/2545228318874139/?active_tab=discussion Arbil44 (talk) 00:11, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I have now cited Jamieson's book and put Bonnie Prince Charlie in brackets. As regards Linlithgow, as I have said, you have surmised that James Gordon was brought up there but we do not know that so I think it could be quite misleading to include the fountain. If we do not have the facts we should err on the side of caution. I think we have now taken this about as far as we can. Dormskirk (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate that you are cautioning me because caution is needed, but the story about wine flowing from the fountain is one of the main stories (it's in dozens of Google Books as well as Linlithgow Lives, and JG would have been there with Glen Gordon on that day. The family lived at Linlithgow Palace, as quoted ahove. I take it that I cannot quote that passage about JG from Mayo's book? Arbil44 (talk) 00:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I have now included the Mayo bit but the whole article is now becoming a collection of quotations and as such, in my view, this has weakening the quality of the article. You may find that other editors seek to address this. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 00:44, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but this is difficult because there is so little about the man other than the Revolution and the Asgill Affair. Your comment is worrying since the final quote (yes quote) will be Asgill's letter stating that he wanted the World to know what his feelings were about JG. Worrying that editors may come along and delete it. Arbil44 (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Changes made to references on 7 March 2020

User:Dormskirk, I do not understand what the changes mean...has this obliterated some of the source material? 4 books for verifiability. [goog]) #IABot (v2.0) (GreenC bot undo Anne (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

It has shortened some of the internet links: it makes no difference to the visible material. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 17:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Dormskirk I know you are aware of discussions being conducted by Cinderella157, but in the process of looking for something else, I have discovered that the three most important books - referenced on both the Gordon and Asgill pages - have been digitised. I am no longer permitted to edit, as you no doubt know too. I cannot interrupt the conversation on the other page, so please would you ensure that all references are linked to the following books? Vanderpoel book in digital format:[2] Mayo book in digital format:[3] Samuel Graham book in digital format:[4]

The thing I am looking for is proof that Asgill was born on 7th April 1762 - everybody seems to have made a mistake and stated 6th April 1762. Apparently the correct date is in the Gentleman's Magazine of April 1762, but for the life of me I just cannot find it. Would you be prepared to look for that for me? If not, Opera hat is always good at finding stuff like that. Would you ping him please if you cannot help me out on this. If that magazine confirms 6th, then I will accept that my information is wrong!

P.S. Please will you tell me just who it was who removed my name, and the Journal, from Further Reading? I know you warned me this would happen!Anne (talk) 12:17, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Anne - Here is a link to the Gentlemen's magazine of April 1762. Link: I cannot see anything of relevance. As far as I can see your name still appears under "further reading". I am aware that you have been asked not to make edits but you need to be careful not to ask me to make edits on your behalf. All that will happen, if it can be shown that I was acting at your request, is that we will both get blocked. And I have already taken more than enough flack over all of this! Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 13:05, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Dormskirk. Well, I had no idea that requesting live, fully searchable links to books already referenced, was such a dastardly crime! Thank you also for finding the GM. It means my source is wrong and I will put to bed the matter of the 7th! Further Reading commences with "Belonzi, Joan" when I refresh the page, so are we seeing two different versions? Anne (talk) 13:17, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes - I was looking at the James Gordon article (for which this is the talk page). Re the Asgill article (and all conversation re that article should be on its talk page) it was removed by this edit. I assume that the logic was that the journal was already referenced in the main text so it cannot be "further reading". Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 13:36, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the further reading section shouldn't list items that have already been referenced in the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying! Both matters discussed, both yesterday and today, are equally relevant on the JG page and the CA page Dormskirk. I'm a nervous wreck after all that I've been through. My family hardly see anything of me any more. Since my return from the US in June last year, my life has been taken over by wp. Please don't give me more lectures than absolutely needed! I've had to create a new topic on Cinderella's discussion, and God alone knows if that is allowed by this 'convict'.Anne (talk) 13:52, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Edits made on 14 August 2020

These seem very aggressive edits. The reference to being loved by friend and foe was linked to a Google book reference using those very words. It is at the very core of who the man was.

The block quote from the Mayo book was a perfectly legitimate description of a man who has no known portrait. Mayo is quoted frequently both on the Gordon and Asgill pages - so why does a 1938 book suddenly have no value?

As for the quote from Charles Asgill's letter of 20 December 1786 - I went to the Teahouse, or whatever it is called, to be tutored on how to arrange the spacing in order to faithfully replicate the way it appears in the source document. It now looks ridiculous - as though it was written in 2020.

Dormskirk would you consider reversing these edits of today. None of them are valid. Anne (talk) 10:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi - I have reversed the deletion of the quote from Katherine Mayo. She died in 1940 so I think this is OK (copyright lasts 70 years after the author's death). On the florid language / peacock terms if this went to dispute arbitration we would lose, so in my opinion it is best not to stir up a hornet's nest. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 10:47, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Slashme I had restored the original position on the quote from Mayo, but you seem to have deleted it again. In accordance with WP:BRD please can you restore the original position, and make the case for removal here so that the matter can be been properly discussed. Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 10:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Were the peacock terms the one about him being loved by friend and foe? I find this odd since it was a direct quote, but could you just clarify that? And what about the spacing in Asgill's letter? Modern formatting looks ludicrous. Anne (talk) 11:00, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

May I just point out, for the record, that Mayo travelled to Scotland to interview the head of Clan Gordon (JG's branch) and the current holder of that position is the Lord Lieutenant of Fife (the Queen's representative). All the papers shown to Mayo are still in his possession. I have had lengthy discussions with him. Anne (talk) 11:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

If the "friend and foe" bit is from the Memoir of General Graham then I see no reason why it should not be retained although "friend and foe" should probably be in quote marks. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 11:12, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The friend and foe quote should be restored in whatever fashion you see fit Dormskirk. The Mayo block quote should be restored (she travelled to Scotland to meet his family, as I outlined above, so was given the information from them) and the Asgill letter looks totally wrong now - the source material was faithful to the original manuscript. This is the worst of edits possible. Anne (talk) 11:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I came into this article without any idea that there were strong feelings involved. I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone, and I'm completely neutral about the topic. I'm very sorry that my edits came across as "very aggressive". I'm here to help write an encyclopedia and I really want to get along with you, my colleagues in this endeavour.

As for the edits: I didn't realise that the citation at the end of the lede referred to the claim that he was highly regarded by friend and foe alike, so I've restored that, but I've still removed the hyperbolic claim that everyone who knew him regarded him highly (unlikely: nobody is universally admired, and not supported by the text). I've also restored the spacing in the letter. I'm still very unconvinced that a highly literary description of the man, written so long after his death, has any place in a general purpose encyclopedia, so I'm not going to restore it, but I won't edit-war about it. --Slashme (talk) 11:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for that. I will restore the Katherine Mayo quote. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I can't keep up! But thank you for your very conciliatory messages Slashme - I really appreciate them. If you knew as much as I do about JG you would understand, I am sure. For instance, he was in charge of a court-martial in NYC during 1783 and both American and British soldiers clamoured to be included in his court, rather than any other. When he died, his coffin was carried by hand for 13 miles from the Morris house to Trinity church. He was a very loved man. Mayo interviewed his descendants who provided her with access to their family archives - documents which are still held by the Lord Lieutenant of Fife. I am thankful to see Asgill's letter once more looking the way he himself wrote it, so thank you very much for that. Like you, I too hate conflict on wp, but it does seem to happen all the same! Anne (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I've no idea what is happening on the page since I've had no chance to look yet, but may I add that James Gordon offered to go to the gallows in place of Charles Asgill. If I may say so, that is the kind of man who is genuinely loved by all who knew him. It is the theme about him which runs through at least two books. One written by Samuel Graham who served with him during the American Revolution and who is frequently the source material for Mayo herself. Is the page back to how it was? If not could someone kindly tell me what is still unchanged? The IT side of things often baffles me. Anne (talk) 11:52, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that apart from the "everyone who knew him" bit, it is back much as it was. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 12:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I am relieved and thankful to both Dormskirk and Slashme and Slashme may be interested to know that Trinity Church, NYC, will be arranging a very special memorial event for JG once the Covid situation is under control. The Vicar there has been very impressed by this particular "enemy" officer, which says it all really, doesn't it?! My thanks to you both. Anne (talk) 12:39, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I do actually feel quite strongly about that last bit: we must remember that Wikipedia has a different style from a book or an obituary. We're supposed to write in a formal, impersonal, and dispassionate tone and must strictly adhere to an impartial tone. This article sails rather close to the wind on that score as it is, and stock phrases like "by all who knew him", while they flow easily from the pen, and while perfectly suited to a laudatory biography, are not suitable for Wikipedia. --Slashme (talk) 12:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Your wish was granted Slashme! - please forgive me for being passionate - I can't help it! It is who I am, especially when I find a worthy candidate for my passion. I hope we are all happy now? I tried to give valid reasons for my wish to see at least three changes reversed - I accept the partial change only for the first. Anne (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

All happy! Passionate advocates tend to be excellent contributors, but you have to be extra careful not to lose your neutral point of view, and watch yourself for signs of ownership syndrome. Wikipedians like me who have been in the project for a long time have to be regularly reminded that a terse edit comment or use of wikipedia jargon can be seen as aggressive behaviour. --Slashme (talk) 13:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, at the end of the day I think we can regard this as a successful and friendly exchange. I am going away bearing no grudges, and I don't think you are either. You have only reiterated what has been said to me a million times already! Nothing changes, and nor do I, although I try hard to do as I am told! Anne (talk) 13:38, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Slashme you know how, after a discussion, one can sometimes think, "Oh, this is what I should have said". Well, something was bugging me like this during our above conversation, and I couldn't put my finger on it, but I should have pointed you to Katherine Mayo's Acknowledgements, here: [5] Had I done so I think you would then have been able to more easily understand that she travelled the world to meet up with the very people who could tell her the most about her "leading characters" and it might have eased your mind to know that she almost literally "went to the ends of the earth" to do her research. Even going to "Happy Valley" in Kenya, where Gilbert de Preville Colvile was an Asgill descendant on the periphery of the "White Mischief" scandal there - John Hurt played his part in the film [6]. The Colonel E W S Balfour mentioned is the late grandfather of the current Lord Lieutenant of Fife. So, yes, Mayo was in a good position to give such a detailed description of James Gordon. I am posting this now Dormskirk in the hope that others, who may edit the JG page in future, will be able to refer to this then. Thanks to you both. Anne (talk) 11:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Stanchion to be erected at Trinity Church, NYC, in honour of Lt. Col. James Gordon

After a very long road has been travelled to get to this point, an email has just arrived saying:

"Just wanted you to know that we are preparing the raised placard to stand in Trinity Churchyard. It will say":

Lieutenant-Colonel James Gordon, (c.1735-1783)

Lt. Col. James Gordon served in the British Army during the Revolutionary War. In 1782, Gordon was a central figure in the “Asgill Affair,” a military dispute in which General George Washington ordered the hanging of an innocent British prisoner-of-war, Capt. Charles Asgill, in response to a series of retaliatory murders between Patriot and Loyalist forces.

Asgill’s sentence was in violation of Articles which protected Prisoners of War. Lt. Col. James Gordon advocated for Asgill’s release and ultimately volunteered to take his fellow officer’s place at the gallows. Neither man was hanged, in the end. Lt. Col. James Gordon is buried in an unknown location within Trinity Churchyard.

Anne (talk) 22:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Some will have noticed that the Trinity Church stanchion has the wrong dates for James Gordon. I have alerted them to this and their reply reads as follows. In the meantime, I trust that nobody will remove the image, since that is how it is for now. When I receive another photograph, I will ensure that the current one is replaced.

"Thank you for bringing the error to our attention. The text needed to be shortened given the set stanchion size, but the dates should have remained the same.

As James Gordon and Charles Asgill would testify, despite human error along the way, good can come to fruition! We are grateful for your continued diligence and dedication. We will attend to this and I will be back in touch.

Peace and blessings, Kristin Miles" Anne (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment

Wishing to resolve the issue of whether or not the James Gordon article should have a link included to a photograph of the memorial created in his mother's honour, commissioned by his brother, Andrew Gordon. I would suggest: "In 1792, Gordon's younger brother, Andrew, erected a memorial to their mother, which reads: "M^rs Elizabeth Glen widow of James Gordon, Esq^r of Ellon, died 7^th March MDCCXCII, aged 80 years. To the memory of a beloved parent this monument of filial piety is erected by Lieu^t Gen^l Andrew Gordon". James Gordon died in America at the end of the Revolution, predeceasing his mother by two decades. Anne (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Note: A prior discussion on the use of this material which may be relevant to participants here took place at Andrew Gordon's talk page. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Please could you correct my mistake Cordless Larry? It hasn't gone live.Anne (talk) 10:48, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Done. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

You might want to clarify what you mean by link in this context (a reference, an external link...?) and provide the link here. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Misplaced RfC, procedural close. If this RfC is about the James Gordon article, it should be held at Talk:James Gordon (British Army officer, died 1783), so that editors who have that talk page on watch will see it and have the opportunity to comment. It should not be held on a different article's talk page. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Cordless Larry and Seraphimblade, I only raised the issue on the Andrew Gordon talk page because the background/previous conversation is there. I hope that by copying the thread, holus-bolus, will suffice? Anything further may be outside my abilities? Anne (talk) 15:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Copying the whole thread would be rather confusing, since the conversation didn't take place there. Since this thread is probably relevant to someone participating, it would be better to link to it in the RfC statement and note that some relevant prior discussion has taken place here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:01, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think that should do it, but check if I missed anything. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• No, I don't think that it is relevant to Gordon's life. If their mother is determined to be independently notable, they can be linked in the infobox. The source provided is also of questionable reliability; see, for example, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Ancestry.com, another database-type site. 🥒 EpicPickle ^{(they/them | talk)} 18:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  "If their mother is determined to be independently notable" ? Huh?! No idea what is meant by that, since she was dead when the memorial to her was commissioned. You would need to read the article to learn about how the mother was a strong and independent woman, in an era when women were subservient. She shook her fist at enemy armies to make her point. Besides, a photograph never lies, or so the saying goes. I would further add that the link is already on Andrew Gordon's page, so the question is, why not on the dead brother's page? Anne (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  The previous discussion, and the points I raised there, is linked in the RfC. Anne (talk) 18:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, but only as a link to the entire Find A Grave page, and only in an "External links" section, not as a reference. This image should not be cited in this manner, i.e., as a raw image from the internet, because it has no context at all - not even the graveyard location. But this information is certainly relevant to the biographies of the individuals; a photograph of a tombstone has useful information. However, the entire Find A Grave page associated with this grave could be linked to at the end of the article, in an External Links section (since Find A Grave is not what we consider to be a "citable source"). See Dore Schary for an example of an External links section. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Qflib, it is really bizarre - I have frequently looked at the full findagrave entry for Elizabeth Glen, Born 1712, Died 1792, Scotland, but now I cannot find it at all. If you by chance can, could you please change the link? Well, the obvious place to find it was from the deleted entry on the James Gordon page, where the full page was previously linked [7] but now I find I don't know how to change the link here! Anne (talk) 22:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think we had better wait until this discussion resolves things. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 23:34, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• No: Wikipedia is not a memorial, as for as a "reference". The use of any "External links"(as adding Findagrave) should be inline with WP:ELNEVER and Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites#Find a Grave "specific, unique feature or information that is not available elsewhere, such as valuable images of a grave (bold emphasis mine) so the value to the article is important, and that the section does not become a link farm. -- Otr500 (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  Otr500, the image on the findagrave site gives information which is often hard to find elsewhere, for people born circa 1712. The image gives Elizabeth's d.o.b. (virtually) and d.o.d. (actually) - it names her husband and one of her sons, and the full FAG page shows where she is buried. For that era, it is all valuable information. I have no idea whether you have agreed to an external link or not, since your comments are not clear to me. The External Links section currently has One link. That isn't a link farm, is it? Did you check that point before suggesting it might be? Anne (talk) 17:03, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• No, it is about his mother and brother and long after his own death. It is not relevant to this article. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:07, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  Gordon died in a foreign land, and was buried in an unmarked grave. His mother outlived him by 20 years. And Wikipedia editors do not have the heart to allow him to be part of the memorial to his own mother, who suffered the loss of her eldest son? Not even as an external link? This man was a hero (read the article to find out) but disinterested wikipedians will not even allow an External Link? Andrew Gordon has a findmygrave link. And Hugh Henry Mitchell has an external link, so does Dore Schary (as mentioned by another editor, above) and I am sure hundreds of others too. But not James Gordon, who offered to go to the gallows in place of a younger man? I just find this unbelievably petty and heartless. A photograph is worth a thousand words to any researcher looking into the life of this man. Anne (talk) 20:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  He was a hero, but his mother's memorial doesn't even mention him. It has his younger brother Andrew who erected it. It has his father, who had the same name. But it doesn't even mention James. If you have cause for including it anywhere, it is on Andrew Gordon (British Army officer), because Andrew's name is on the bottom there and he constructed the memorial. I don't understand the twenty years computation, James died 1783 and his mother 1792, that is nine years.---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  I never was much good at maths! It is already linked on the Andrew Gordon page and also on the two other named pages I have given. So why such trouble over JG? It is hard enough to find these details elsewhere, and the information is what genealogists term 'vital documents'. Seriously - an External Link is simply not on? Anne (talk) 21:05, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Otr500, let's assume good faith. This editor has stipulated that this is not a relative in any case. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  • @Anne Ammundsen:: Sorry for your confusion. Regretfully, and after some reading, I will have to add No to the link. Relevant, mentioned, but not acted upon, would be WP:NOTMYFAMILYHERITAGE (part of WP:NOT) -- Otr500 (talk)-
• Comments: Prior to 2010, Find a Grave was used as a reference, external link, and sometimes both, on an astounding number of articles. Being user generated it should not have been (or currently) used as a reference. Many articles were created with just an "External links" section so the site used as a source. I stumbled across a good faith project list that was adding the site to every deceased person on Wikipedia (initially 46,698 entries that is around 89.7% completed) and many times creating a link farm. Longer story short is that after being subjected to a lot of flack I persevered, leading to the creation of Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites. I do not recall ever editing the article but was among the top 6 in the discussions helping to form it. As an actual fan of Find a Grave I continually maintain that the site does have some undisputed qualities. I do not contest any link that adds "true value" to an article. Please note: The title of the article is not "Elizabeth..." and "For that era, it is all valuable information" is simply not a great argument for inclusion. Comments of "often hard to find elsewhere" (please refer to "unique feature or information that is not available elsewhere". This does not mean impossible or give the easy route of using Find a Grave just because it is easy to find or to continue the indiscriminate adding to articles.

In this case the adding of a "memorial" that is said to be found in other articles, an apparent attempt to verify information that does not seem to be questioned or relevant, does not improve the article. The tag already states This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may interest only a particular audience so adding more "intricate" detail is not productive. -- -- Otr500 (talk) 22:14, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I will never understand how a photograph cannot be used as proof. I know how hard it was to create the article, with the necessary citations, and I was overjoyed when I stumbled upon that photograph which, in and of itself, cannot possibly be contested. I am not related to JG, but I know a wonderful man when I come across one. His mother reared him, and she too must have been a wonderful woman to bring up such an honourable and unselfish son. I had hoped to be able to link the two of them on the JG page. I am deeply saddened to have fallen foul of heartless WP diktats. Anne (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

@Anne Ammundsen: I am glad you champion an article. I hope you continue to contribute but please be careful with not "assuming good faith". I am not sure what "diktats" are but I am pretty sure that heartless WP diktats is derogatory and this is not a good thing towards volunteer editors. Many times there is nothing wrong with a photograph. It has been explained and not rebutted about memorials. It has been explained about Find a Grave and indiscriminate adding to articles. User:Dormskirk explained "In fairness to wikipedia the rules are there to stop people from publishing inaccurate information not least because of some previous howlers!".

I hope you forgot the addition of a word as "Never understand" is pretty boxed in. Clear evidence of the need for reliable sources would be an image that needs to be removed until corrected. I am referencing the Stanchion to be erected at Trinity Church, NYC, in honour of Lt. Col. James Gordon above, inclusion of the image on the article, and an incorrect date. According to the infobox and article the subject died 17 October 1783 (aged 48), and according to the article (unsourced): "Trinity Church, New York City, erected a memorial stanchion in Gordon's honour, 239 years after his death". However, the simple math of the reportedly undisputedly accurate photograph as "proof" shows the subject died in 1815, being around 80 years old and 207 years after one of their (are there two people?) deaths. At face value there must be two separate people or a lot of errors created by the inclusion of an inaccurate image with the wrong date. Casual readers do not generally look at the talk page to find information about an error.

As editors in good standing we should strive for only including verifiable content. If there is doubt, it is better to leave it out. FYI -- Find a Grave has been shown to have many multiple errors in wrong markers, dates inconsistent with sourcing, and other inaccuracies. While great for research, a place to start, care has to be used regarding use on Wikipedia. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Otr500 I was expressing my "feelings" on the matter, and the "heartless diktats" expresses my opinion regarding a photograph being disallowed by the Wikipedia Foundation. An earlier comment of yours rather suggested that you thought I was related to JG, which I am not, so the written word does not always adequately express one's inner thoughts. As soon as we are into September, I shall be approaching Trinity Church, for the umpteenth time, to see where the land lies with the replacement stanchion - we are getting perilously close to my having devoted 4 years of my life to trying to get this matter dealt with. I sincerely hope it will be finally resolved very soon. Anne (talk) 08:55, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

On Sun, 28 Aug at 14:55, I emailed my Trinity Church contacts, and ended my message "I truly pray this whole matter is put to bed very soon - for me, it has been an exceptionally stressful experience for getting on for four years now". I fully expect Kristin Miles will ring me - she always does when she knows I am at the end of my tether. Later, a reply in reads: "Patti Walsh To:Anne Ammundsen Sun, 28 Aug at 19:27 Hi Anne - I am so sorry this has gone on for so long. I am checking into the status and will be back to you soonest with what I hope will be a good and final resolution. Best, Patti" I trust this will ease your mind Otr500? Anne (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarity. I do not believe you are a relative. I see a passionate person that may have misplaced the fundamental grasp on policies and guidelines. At a point, an assumption might be drawn that there could be an apparent COI. This can happen if there is in fact no connection to the subject. All of us have a certain amount of bias as "Wikipedians tend to write about what interests them and what they know." When an editor's roles and relationships conflict with their primary role, as an editor on Wikipedia, there can be a COI. I will offer that being too close or too attached (invested) to a subject can trigger an apparent COI. Advocacy (unintended or unintentional) can place an editor in a position that can appear to be as close as a family member. I hope there is no issue with a request to remove the stanchion pending corrections. -- Otr500 (talk) 19:00, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Otr500, please take a look at the image now. It was sent to me by Trinity Church this evening (my time) since the correction was made in May 2022, but they failed to inform me. They have bent over backwards to rectify this error, on a Sunday. If you remove the image now, I can assure you there most certainly will be an "issue", since I have dropped everything, this Bank Holiday Sunday, to rectify a mistake that was not of my making. Further, let me please assure you that I left Wikipedia long ago. It is most definitely not for me. So, fear not, I will not be rampaging round Wikipedia doing a mass of editing which displeases you. I only return, these days, when people interfere with my work. Anne (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Otr500, you have certainly struck a nerve. I ask you one question - when you uncover a totally different version of history, hidden for 233 years, what kind of person would not become "passionate" to get that information disseminated? Anne (talk) 12:10, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Seraphimblade: what is your brief and neutral statement? As shown at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies the matter under consideration is unclear. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:52, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Comments: Gotta love Wikipedia. I would offer procedurally flawed as I am sure the participants thus far has some clarity on the "matter under consideration". -- Otr500 (talk) 19:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  Redrose64, it's not my RfC; the statement of what comments are requested on is the one made by Anne Amundsen above. This RfC was initially started on the wrong talk page, I just moved it to the correct one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:16, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

  Regardless, it is your note that is showing at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies. This is because Legobot looks for the {{rfc}} tag, then for the next valid timestamp after that, and takes everything in between as the RfC statement and copies that to the RfC listings. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

  Well then, have you fixed that, or will I need to go and do it? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 14:26, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

• No: Wikipedia is not a memorial WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Also, adding it would present undue article creep WP:CREEPKerdooskis (talk) 21:33, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  What is the difference between a "memorial" and a "monument" Kerdooskis? The following is currently on every WP page:"Wiki Loves Monuments: Photograph a monument, help Wikipedia and win! Learn more". Anne (talk) 12:07, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  By Wikipedia is not a memorial, what's meant is that a Wikipedia article is not the place to memorialise people. Wiki Loves Monuments is a photo competition to attract high-quality photos of real-world monuments that can be used to illustrate Wikipedia articles - ones about monuments mostly, I would think. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Article Culled, but the banner remains

Drdpw, now that all the interesting bits have gone, how about removing the banner at the top of the page? How could you have overlooked that when you have removed the majority of the artcle? As for removing "Only One Hero" - a dedication to James Gordon by an Oxford university professor - I am left speechless. Cordless Larry sourced that newspaper review, and I typed up the paraphrased version. It was the very least James Gordon was due. I just don't understand how a lone editor is permitted to come along and remove everything he personally doesn't like? Anne (talk) 18:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It looks to me as if the banner has been removed, and that edits are still underway. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 19:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The banner was removed after I requested it to be done, not before, or when the edits were done. Anne (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I know. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 19:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)