Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Uwe Kils (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Uwe Kils

The result was Speedy Close. Too soon (4 days) after prior close. Please use WP:DRV to request a reopen of the old AFD if you believe shenanigans were afoot, AND if you believe the prior closing admin was unaware of such shenanigans. Please also contact the prior closing admin and discuss the matter; he may have been well aware of the sock/meat issues and still judged consensus among remaining comments to be worthy of keep. See also this ANI thread, where this issue is discussed in greater detail. Jayron32 17:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Topic has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Prior AfD was marred by sockpuppets of the subject, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils. Searches in news, books, as well as multiple other database research archives unfortunately showed only brief mentions in passing, not enough significant discussion of biographical info on individual himself in independent secondary sources. Article also functions as WP:VANISPAM. Cirt (talk) 08:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: At present, it appears that fully 100% of the sources currently used in this article are either primary sources and/or sources affiliated with the subject. Cirt (talk) 08:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —Cirt (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. —Cirt (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. —Cirt (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you came here because Canvassing by Kils (talk · contribs), [1], [2], [3], [4], please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Keep – Kils is perhaps more notable as the inventor of the EcoSCOPE and his innovative approach to marine life photography than as an academic. Nonetheless, Google Scholar cites a number of his papers, including one with 115 citations. He is well represented in Google Books. For some reason, he has behaved in a deranged manner with his sock puppets and vanities. We do not know the circumstances of that. Anyway, he should be judged on the merits of his work, and this is not the place to punish him with an inappropriate deletion. --Geronimo20 (talk) 08:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I am not seeing significant discussion of biographical info on this individual in any those sources. Cirt (talk) 08:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete He's clearly taken some remarkable photographs, but I'm not convinced that this meets the notability threshold. It seemed he had a publication in Science but this turns out to be a para in "netwatch" pointing people to a website of his photos. Can't see anything in the way of secondary sources. No notable book. On the other hand 16k ghits... NBeale (talk) 10:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Does the work the subject has done in developing (or co-developing) new photographic techniques meet WP:CREATIVE #2? or the large number of photos appearing in texts count as citations, thereby meeting WP:ACADEMIC #1? Vulture19 (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

photographs don't count as citations. The term is pretty well-defined. NBeale (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep on procedural grounds. We just had an AfD on Kils that was closed as keep a few days ago. Nothing has happened since then to make the subject less noteworthy, and there's no reason to believe that the closing admin of the previous AfD didn't recognize the sockpuppets or meatpuppets as what they were (they were pretty obvious). It's far too soon to try again. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils was filed 2 days after the close of the prior AFD. And as there are at least two individuals here with the position of delete, there are not grounds for speedy either way. Cirt (talk) 15:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recuse A lot has happened, per the sock puppetry report. ~~The subject has also stated that he wants this page deleted. [5]~~ Jehochman ^Talk 16:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I looked at the above diff but I don't really see a statement there that he wants the page deleted. The closest I see there is "good bye English Wikipedia" but that does not sound to me like a deletion request. Nsk92 (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - He doesn't say anything about wanting this page deleted in the diff you provided --Geronimo20 (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The SPA's were noted in the just closed AfD. This one should be quickly closed as keep on procedural grounds per David Eppstein.John Z (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please note that Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kils was filed and subsequently completed exposing the confirmed socking, after the prior AfD was closed. Cirt (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why should the time of a more formal investigation matter? Why should we not assume the earlier admin read the AfD, noted the presence of the spa's discussed there and discounted them?John Z (talk)

Keep, on procedural grounds, per the previous AfD results. Non-withstanding clumsy meat- and sockpuppetry by Kils and Co. during and after the AfD, it is pretty clear from looking at that AfD that there was a consensus among the non-SPA users for a keep. In this case sockpuppetry is a reason for blocks and editing restrictions, not for deleting the article. Nsk92 (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral/Comment: I don't blame the nominator for putting this back up, given the last version was unintelligible and misrepresented the situation. Exceptional circumstances sometimes need IAR-style actions. Not that I agree with it necessarily or that I disagree with the last close, but few AfDs have that much going on at once. It's at least possible to think that some editors could not post on the last given direct involvement in current discussions elsewhere regarding the editor in question and politely avoided any possible COI matter. That said, I still suggest any close on this take the "real" opinions of the #2 nomination discussion into consideration, at least. If it sticks around, the "procedural keeps" are moot. I can't deny the at least somewhat vindictive appearance of it being put back up (it being nominatred-- not the act by the nominator. I do understand why it was don). The procedural keep opinions are certainly well-spoken if that idea is being entertained and are a good focus. Content of given opinions need particular note and most good all-around. ♪ daTheisen (talk) 23:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Propose close. We can revisit this in a few months time when the sockpuppetry is forgotten and we can judge this biography dispassionately. I think his notability as an academic or photographer is marginal, but I think the closing admin could see past the SPAs to discern consensus on the very recent AfD. Fences&Windows 01:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A fair compromise, and support. Since the article is going to be poked at byte-for-byte at any further changes, let's assume it won't get "worse". In a few months all shall be cleansed from our souls, and who knows, the article might even be better. I have faith in the SPI recommendations working out, and a few months will make sure that has played out properly as a bonus measure of accuracy to claim "stability". Perhaps then, ponder another look. ♪ daTheisen (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, would rather this discussion run the full standard time. Cirt (talk) 08:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

please see discussion page Uwe Kils 09:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In relation to canvassing template above: I've posted to the author of the restrictions placed upon this user. Apparently plenty of others already did as well, but I figured it was worth posting here anyway, or at least this will be a time keeping marker is canvassing comes in once more. ♪ daTheisen (talk) 13:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I already !voted for keeping in the last AFD, so you already know my opinion. I'll note again that he was awarded the Heinz Maier Leibnitz Prize, and that he got a EB-1 visa to travel to the US, and that he seems to have won other two awards, even if we don't have right now the source for them, and that this seems to meet WP:PROF. I'll also note that he appears quite a few times at google scholar [6]. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show secondary sources that give biographical detail on the individual? Cirt (talk) 13:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did not participate in the original AfD, but I do not see the points made by Enric Naval above as particularly clear-cut. We do not, for the moment, have any info about what the Heinz Maier Leibnitz Prize is, who awarded it and to what extent it is significant. I do see from the subject's CV[7] that this prize is dated 1979, the same year the subject appears to have obtained his PhD. Now, to the EB-1 visa matter. Here I am something of an expert, having gone through an academia job-based immigration process myself. Despite its illustrious-sounding name (outstanding professor/researcher or alien of extraordinary ability), the EB-1 visa in practice does not really mean these things. It is a particular administrative category of immigration visas that allows to make the green card approval process a bit faster. The decision to approve an EB-1 petition is made not by the peers of an academic in question, but by immigration officials who have no qualifications in the academic subject of the applicant. They rely on a set of formal criteria which in practice are fairly easy to satisfy for any practicing academic. For "outstanding professor and researcher" one needs to satisfy at least 2 out of 6 criteria[8]. Two of them (4 and 6) can be satisfied by publishing several articles and refereeing several papers. All but the most beginning academics can satisfy these requirements. Most people I know who were approved under EB-1 category, were approved while Assistant Professors and quite a few even as postdocs; none of them would have been considered notable by Wikipedia standards at the time their EB-1 applications were approved. Finally, an approval of an EB-1 application is by definition a private matter (unlike public acts such as academic prizes and awards) and is not published in any public forum (the only person who gets notified is the petitioner) and as such they do not satisfy WP:V requirements. Nsk92 (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Volkswagen Foundation gave Uwe Kils a grant for EcoSCOPE, and the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft's Heisenberg Programme gave him a fellowship. This is as yet not properly sourced, but they're grants not prizes. But he did win the Heinz Maier-Leibnitz-Preis in 1979 and this is sourced.[9] If biographical details are lacking in sources, then we should stub this biography down to what we can source from independent primary and secondary sources, i.e. that he was an oceanographer, he was given some grants and a prize, he worked at Rutgers, and his photos have been used in some books and highlighted on the (now defunct) FishBase. Fences&Windows 15:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Why this barrage of deletion requests? I think we need to get some perspective here - if things like Rap Cat are tolerated, Uwe Kils should be kept without question. --Magnus Manske (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This user was canvassed by Kils (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF. Fences&Windows 15:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep as in the previous AfD. Magnus, there is no "barrage of deletion requests; there was only a barrage of sock/meat puppets. I don't see the objection to this renomination, and I don't mind stating again that I believe the subject to be notable--as well as, in ThuranX's words from the previous AfD, "obnoxiously self-aggrandizing." Perhaps I should add all my academic titles in my signature as well? Given the canvassing signaled above, I wonder whether Kils gets the point, but that's another matter. Drmies (talk) 16:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassed by User:Kils. Cirt (talk) 17:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make matters clear: Cirt, I am sure you do not intend the above remark to suggest something about me, right? Drmies (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The subject's notability seems adequate for the project. --Sn0wflake (talk) 17:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassed by User:Kils. Cirt (talk) 17:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I was canvassed to vote, but despite that I am going to. I am also nobody's sock, meat or glove puppet, and there ain't no strings on me neither. Neither am I even a student of a student of Kils, and to the best of my knowledge I don't even know one. I came in by accident on the second AfD. I still feel there is notability. Perhaps in directions other than the academic, but so what? Borodin always thought of himself as a chemist, but what do most people remember him for? (Yes, the musical Kismet, his posthumous collaboration with Wright and Forrest...) Out of curiosity, what is the record for AfDs for an article? I've not seen more than three yet. Must watch in case... Peridon (talk) 17:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.