If you were tagged here it was an accident!

This is where I draft talk page messages. So, if you were tagged here, it was by mistake. No need to read to the message I tagged you in here. It's probably a duplicate of something that is already elsewhere, or will be elsewhere soon, or just pointless incoherent junk. But please leave a message on the talk page for this page just to let me know you were tagged, so I don't make the same mistake repeatedly and annoy everyone.

Irtapil (talk) 16:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

actually … drafting on a talk page works better

but hare's the talk page sections that really belong on pages…

Draft comments

Proposed page move

A few hours ago, 2023 Israel–Hamas war became, simply, Israel–Hamas war. This page should follow suit and become List of engagements during the Israel–Hamas war. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Does this means I get to go all the way back to Operation Bringing Hone the Goods and before? Or I think that end up at the 1990s? Irtapil (talk) 10:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry i should have coffee befor attention humour.

WTF did i spell wrong in that…

Irtapil (talk) 11:00, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

No, the scope remains the same, it's the same article. This also gives me the opportunity to ask about the inclusion of a row for "Israeli settler violence" which ended on 6 October. Seems out of scope? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 11:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Kind of everything

Palestinian politics
Israeli politics

A bit of context is useful and it's hard to argue that things happening as recently as the day before aren't relevant.

international politics

The UN condemnation is interesting given the controversy that followed about who would condemn what when.

and most relevant for that table the strategic aspect of where the IDF and Israeli police had most of their forces deployed.

The Gaza border region was reported was under staffed because they were all busy defending and / or annexing (depending on your perspective) the West Bank.

The linked article is maybe not the best match for the story? Replace it with something else if you can find something suitable? Or if you can think of a more relevant name that describes the context better then feel free to add it as <nowikk> a more relevant name </nowikk> I left it as it was because I figured that title was probably the result of many very long consensus discussions.

Sorry. Posted the above unfinished before my phone mangled it completely. Fixing it now. Irtapil ( talk ) 00:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC) Edited Irtapil (talk) 08:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

It currently looks a bit synth? But is very widely reported thaa big reason that Hamas et al. had the upper hand got a few days

1.

2. It's Irtapil (talk) 00:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Done InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Done which? Irtapil (talk) 08:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

List of Endangerments

@ User:WeatherWriter|WeatherWriter there are more than enough incidents to fill a page now, e.g. From yesterday's grim news (I've not watched this yet) Video shows aftermath of a summary execution of 15 men in a Gaza apartment - from Al Jazeera News feed via YouTube) but those on the wrong side of the Gaza boarder are much less well documented, so this has ended up with a worrying skew. There genuinely is less information, and it's genuinely less verifiable, but the overall effect we're ending up with is a document about a war that's severely skewed to the one half of the first ~2400 deaths, in a war that's up to 30,000 dead, 90% of whom are on the other side. Each thing included is individually verifiable, but the overall picture is … a less reliable assessment of the full story than the CGTN Radio news headlines? By which I mean each individual bit of it is factual, but the overall story is a big lie. ~ ~ ~ ~

Deletion Discussions

hostage page merges

probably no - Keep them all separate for now, they are likely to expand over the next few months, but make sure they are well connected to relevant other pages. Is there already a centralised list / table page of the hostages? Would that be appropriate? Should I start one? Irtapil (talk) 11:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Listing the dead

Murad Abu Murad

Second choice, Keep or merge with an existing page, but I would prefer…
Start a list page - There will probably be a lot of these little articles?

To begin with I would include all factions and Hezbollah (not just Hamas). We can split it if it gets too long. Some entries can refer to a {{main}} page, but most probably won't. But what do we call it? And should we include notabe civilians?

📝 "List of Palestinian and allied militants killed in the 2023-2024 Israel-Hamas war"

But that is too long?

📝 "Palestinian and allied militants killed in the 2023-2024 war"

Which war is probably implied

📝 "Alleged militants killed in the 2023-2024 Israel-Hamas war"

Some (e.g. Ali Bazi) seem to be officially unconfirmed and recently dead people probably warrant similar caution to WP:BLP? Possibly we could just make it comprehensive?

📝 "List of notable deaths in the 2023-2024 war"

That would include journalists and any other civilians whose deaths got substantial news coverage?
But the 1,139 deaths on the Israeli side at the beginning probably belong on a different list, the level of detail about them could easily fill an entire wiki page?

📝 "Notable non-Israeli casualties in the 2023-2024 war"

But I have never seen "notable" in an article title before, is there a better way to say that?
The 3 hostages who got shot seem like they belong in that list, but "kilted by Israel" is obviously going to cause problems. Possibly it could just be 8 October onwards? But the IDF soldiers seem like they belong elsewhere?

Irtapil (talk) 13:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war

some of these probably belong elsewhere

belongs in casualties

For people who died in Gaza from 7 October to 26 October 2023, "Children younger than 18 years, women aged 18–59 years, and both men and women aged 60 years or older (groups that probably include few combatants) constituted 68% of analysable deaths" ^[1]

^ Jamaluddine, Zeina; Checchi, Francesco; Campbell, Oona M R (December 2023). "Excess mortality in Gaza: Oct 7–26, 2023". The Lancet. 402 (10418): 2189–2190. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(per23)02640-5. Retrieved 29 December 2023.

apartheid

{{main| Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war # Mention of apartheid RfC ]]

did you read ?

Error: no page names specified (help).

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|North8000}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

North8000 (talk) 18:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

So much for neutrality

User talk:Bijak riyandi]]

Re: List of … talk # So much for neutrality

I tried to adapt that into "massacres, hostages takings, and mass imprisonments" to include the trick loads of alleged militants taken away by the Israeli Army, but someone changed it back to "massacres and hostage takings", and now those incidents are nowhere.

If you can think of a better subheading for that section that covers the data already in the table, then suggest it here, if we can find something enough people agree on that counts as "consensus" and people aren't allowed to keep changing it back. The massacres table also previously included:

The total blockade on Gaza. No food, water, or medical supplies sounds like a massacre? but it seems someone disagreed.

And the forced evacuation of hospitals?

And the resulting deaths of premature infants

And there I think there were also others.

~~ ~~

needs link

One problem is a lot of possible massacres committed by the army are less well documented.

I am thinking of compiling a list of poss

Invite to extend the school massacre stub.

~~ ~~

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 October 2023

User talk:Weather Writer]]

Re: List of… talk # Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 October 2023.

Possibly the events discussed on this part of the talk page should be re-added?

I'm noticing a distinctly one sided pattern of content removal on that page, and I'm really daunted by what to do about it? The pattern I'm noticing is removal of:

controversial actions of the IDF
military targets of Palestinian Militants
things outside Gaza (West Bank, Lebanon, etc.)

The best documented cases of those things seem to stay, but there's a very biased pattern in the removal of anything that's ambiguous for notability, relevance, or reliable sources. e.g. The lone remaining military target from 7 October appears to be a massacre of female soldiers that was reported in the Times of Israel?

The 7 October attacks indisputably included multiple war crimes, but it's still wrong to distort the story into a one sided propaganda narrative. And it is definitely wrong to be symaltaniously removing questionable actions from the other side.

~~ ~~

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[no_fabrication-1] Jamaluddine, Zeina; Checchi, Francesco; Campbell, Oona M R (December 2023). "Excess mortality in Gaza: Oct 7–26, 2023". The Lancet. 402 (10418): 2189–2190. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(per23)02640-5. Retrieved 29 December 2023.

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