Talk:Estonia

Religion

The avoidance of any mention of Soviet suppression of religion is so startling as to raise the suspicion of propaganda. 伟思礼 (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@伟思礼 Conversely, it may be due to the absence of reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Lithuania was also under soviet domination but stay majorly christian... Respublica1810 (talk) 12:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

"Palojärv (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Palojärv (disambiguation) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 5 § Palojärv (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

RfC - Another "Northern" or "Eastern" issue

An IP user added a description like 'geographiclly located in Northern Europe' in the lede. (1, 2, 3, 4) I think it violates "Lithuania solution", the consensus which is made in the previous talk. (#RfC - The geographic locale of Estonia) I request other users' opinions for this issue. Do you support or oppose to add this description? 117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@117.53.77.84 Comment(Summoned by bot) Don't see a problem with replacing 'geographically located in Northern Europe' with 'geographically located in Northern and Eastern Europe' --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't participated in the above RfC, but it is not immediately obvious to me that the "Lithuania solution" is the clear consensus.

In any case, I don't have a problem with Estonia's geographic location being described as "Northern Europe" or "Northern and Eastern Europe" (although "Central Europe" is a bit much). Both options seem a bit more informative to a global audience than simply "Baltic region". Although we could also follow the Latvia article and write it as "a country in the Baltic region of Northern Europe". In fact, that seems like the best option, for the lede at least. Indrek (talk) 05:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support - In the RfC you linked, there actually seemed to be a strong consensus for designating Estonia as located in Northern Europe specifically. I would also be wary of designating it as in Eastern Europe though, as that may prove way more controversial and debatable (as shown a bit in the RfC actually). I think the phrasing suggested by @Indrek at the end of their reply would be good for the lead. Choucas Bleu (T·C) 21:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment(Summoned by bot), the present text seems well phrased, except the "geographically" is - at best - redundant. "Located" ordinarily means "physically (ie geographically) placed" so the word is acting as a PoV comment on other ways to classify. If Estonia is classified as belonging in various 'broad sweep' world regions, then the who and why of those classifications seems useful. I cannot comment on the present accuracy, since no sources are provided.Pincrete (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Pincrete on the phrasing. We should state that different sources classify the region differently. By the way the OECD term Central or Eastern European has a different meaning than the current phrasing "Central or Eastern European". I don't think anyone says Estonia is central european. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 08:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Indrek that it is a bit more, if not much more informative to a global audience to state a geographic location other than simply "Baltic region". I'm not against stating in the lede that all three options (Northern, Central and Eastern) have been used (like the previous wording that the lede had) because that would make them all equal but honestly following the Latvias article and writing it as "a country in the Baltic region of Northern Europe" is the very best option for the lede. The other options used could be in the tiny clickable note thingy since in terms of geography Estonia is obviously in Northern Europe but as I said I'm not against if all three are in a sentence in the lede.

• Indrek's solution is the best. In my opinion it is clearer. Jtrrs0 (talk) 16:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. 85.254.74.59 (talk) 16:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - current version at the time of writing this comment, "is a country by the Baltic Sea in Northern Europe", looks best fitting for me.--Staberinde (talk) 09:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Cultural Autonomies Act

Could we get a summary over copy pasting copyrighted text. This summary article is not the place to highlight one act. WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS Moxy🍁 12:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The Estonian Cultural Autonomy Act grants the freedom to establish cultural autonomy bodies in order to perform culture-related rights granted to them by the Constitution.

The act permits the establishment of cultural autonomy bodies for the following national minorities without any pre-conditions:

• German national minority
• Swedish national minority
• Jewish national minority
• Russian national minority

Additionally, any national minority with a population of over 3000 persons is granted the same right.

Persons belonging to a national minority have the right to:

• form and support national cultural and educational institutions and religious communities;
• establish national organisations;
• perform national traditions and religious customs if this does not violate public order, damage health or breach morality;
• use their mother tongue in public administration within the limits established by the Language Act;
• publish printed matter in their national languages;
• conclude cooperation agreements between cultural and educational institutions and religious communities;
• disseminate and exchange information in their mother tongue.

Currently active cultural autonomies: Based on the cultural autonomy act, the currently active cultural councils in Estonia, as of 2023, were for the Ingrian Finnish and for the Estonian Swedish cultural minorities. Moxy🍁 12:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with summarizing it. In this case you have reverted twice without mentioning that the issue is, in your view, copy-pasting. The first time you claimed it's a "random fact" (it isn't). Second time there was no reasoning given at all. The last part of the text is not a copy-paste, but summarization. I will add this back + sentence about the cultural autonomy act.Saltsjöbaden (talk) 17:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking we need to start a separate article for this if we have sources stating that it's notable. But this overview article isn't the place to detail one act. What we would bd looking for is the effects in a summary..... Just detailing the ACT leaves us with no r information about actual society...... What are the actual effects of this law are they implemented are they controversial are they actualized equally throughout society?Moxy🍁 17:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

A separate article can also be started. But briefly mentioning the act and the current official cultural minorities / cultural councils of Estonia, under the Culture paragraph, is a no-brainer. Especially considering that specifically the estonian swedish cultural minority is mentioned multiple times in the article in other places. Saltsjöbaden (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this section..... are you trying to say only certain minorities have the right to practice religion and cultural expression? Moxy🍁 17:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm specifically referencing the estonian cultural autonomies act, which is a notable law in Estonia, giving every national minority that numbers over 3000, a right to form their own official national cultural bodies. Including a source from the estonian ministry of culture. It's about the furthest from racism you can get, not that it's even relevant to this discussion. You have now reverted this 3 times, in effect breaking the 3-revert rule. Saltsjöbaden (talk) 17:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Will read up on this..... I find it shocking any country will not allow some random amount of practitioners to not practice their cultures..... Or is it just you have to have so many to form a social club? Do we have links to like modern amendments? Moxy🍁 17:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok... did some reading....could saying something like... The Cultural Autonomies Act Estonia, also known as the Language Act, is a legislative framework that grants cultural autonomy to national minorities in the country. The Act first established in 1925, recognizes the rights of minority groups to preserve and develop their language, culture, and traditions within the Estonian society. The Act also provides for the creation of cultural councils, composed of representatives from minority groups, to oversee the implementation of cultural autonomy. Hower there is some criticism that we may want to about toMoxy🍁 17:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

You can feel free to add whatever well-cited text there is about it. But you also broke the 3revert rule by reverting something that said the exact same thing, and with direct sources from the estonian constitution and the ministry of culture. What exactly was wrong with the text that you removed? At the very least, the currently registered national minorities should be mentioned, plus the four minority groups that are included in the law by default:

The Estonian Cultural Autonomy Act grants the freedom to establish cultural autonomy bodies in order to perform culture-related rights granted to them by the Constitution. The act allows the German, Swedish, Russian and Jewish national minorities to form cultural autonomy bodies without a required minimum number of people belonging to the corresponding minority, and for any other national minority that numbers at least 3000 people. As of 2023, based on the cultural autonomy act, the active cultural councils in Estonia were for the Estonian Finnish (including Ingrian Finns) and for the Estonian Swedish cultural minorities.Saltsjöbaden (talk) 18:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Looking for academic publications..... linking to the act itself not helpful for readers. And trying to move forward..... Is there only these three or four groups? Moxy🍁 18:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

In answer to your question about the different groups, here is the paragraph from the text above, which answers that question: "The act allows the German, Swedish, Russian and Jewish national minorities to form cultural autonomy bodies without a required minimum number of people belonging to the corresponding minority, and for any other national minority that numbers at least 3000 people. As of 2023, based on the cultural autonomy act, the active cultural councils in Estonia were for the Estonian Finnish (including Ingrian Finns) and for the Estonian Swedish cultural minorities". The sources for Estonian Finnish and Estonian Swedish national minorities being the currently official ones are linked to above, with the first one being from the ministry of culture. Original text in estonian, from the ministry of culture: Eestis on kultuurautonoomia soomlastel (alates 2004. a) ja rootslastel (2007. a). Saltsjöbaden (talk) 18:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

So reviewing another academic release I see things like "Despite the fact that Estonia's Russian and Swedish minorities were larger than the minimum required, only Germans (1925) and Jews.." and "the policy has failed to be implemented". Going to compile some more sources... as this is not clear cut as it sounds... a little bit controversial..... Perhaps exclusionary in nature despite its intent or simply not utilized to its full extent by minority populations. Moxy🍁 18:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, well-sourced criticism / mentioning of issues can / should also be mentioned. But the act receiving criticism or not is not relevant to the question of including it as a topic or not. As it's clearly relevant and notable, not to mention it being mentioned in the article multiple times elsewhere, in the context of the estonian swedish cultural autonomy. Saltsjöbaden (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It's relevant to how it should be included WP:DUE. Being touted as one of the greatest cultural accomplishments may not be representative of the sources.

• "Estonia: New law banning mother-tongue education for minorities may violate human rights, warn UN experts". OHCHR. 2023-08-17. Retrieved 2024-06-17.

Moxy🍁 19:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

1) The link you provided above has nothing to do with the cultural autonomies act. It has 0 mention of it. Not sure why you added this here? If you want to connect that to the topic on your own because you think it's related, then that is WP:OR. 2) None of the texts here is touting it as "one of the greatest cultural accomplishments." 3) WP:DUE would absolutely justify the inclusion of a summary of the cultural autonomies act / the currently registered cultural autonomies in the article. Stick to the topic at hand please, if you want to participate. Saltsjöbaden (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

1) Seems extremely relevant if it's surpasses the old act... or makes parts of it null and void.

2)... I said it many times... this is not the article to detail one act of many... especially if it's not in the proper manner.

I am going to keep reviewing this for sources... if you want you're more than welcome to ask for other opinions. Moxy🍁 19:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

1) It does not. These are completely unrelated topics. The article you linked says nowhere that it makes the act void. Furthermore, it does not mention the act at all. Because this is a completely unrelated topic. You're doing WP:OR at this point. These are non-related topics. Starting from the fact that there currently is no registered russian cultural autonomy in estonia. There is nothing to "void". You should re-read the actually relevant sources above that you yourself linked to. You would then know that there is no russian cultural autonomy registered in Estonia. 2) The topic itself is clearly relevant and - again - it is already mentioned on Estonia multiple times, in the context of the estonian swedish cultural autonomy. A short summary is completely justified. Saltsjöbaden (talk) 19:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

References

why no mention of population loss due to free market ?

Since Estonia joined the free market system, its population has been reduced around 15%. 79.167.132.76 (talk) 16:11, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Probably because nobody has proposed it yet and provided a reliable source for it. _signed, Willondon (talk) 16:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)