Talk:Q11703

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Autodescription — United States Virgin Islands (Q11703)

description: unincorporated territory of the United States of America
Useful links:
Generic queries for administrative territorial entities

This list of queries is designed for all instances of administrative territorial entity (Q56061). It is generated using {{TP administrative area}}.

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located in the administrative territorial entity (P131)

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Discovery

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I think I figured out what happened. On Wikidata: From June 12, 2013 here To June 23, 2013 here An unregistered user went through thousands of wikidata items of locations and added ‎Created claim: located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) and filled it in with a country: The editor received some comments on his talk page here re: incorrect addition on some wikidata items, which other editors had to tediously remove.

And On June 13, added the same claim to Puerto Rico here and to the other US territories here Right after the 50 states of the US were updated, so were the territories, and this should not have been done. While these are U.S. territories they are not "located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) of the United States". Look at any US map to know what I mean. There are 50 states in the US, not 50 states and a bunch of territories.

While some of this unregistered editors additions / errors were questioned and corrected by some editors, US territories and maybe others' wikidata items slipped through the cracks. No one noticed or questioned the edits.

The unregistered user responded on his talk page with how he made these edits and I quote him "I created a bot that traverse the entity recursively via the contains administrative territorial entity (P150) property. The assumption is if A subdivides to any entity B or C, then B is in administrative unit located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) of A, and C is in administrative unit located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) of A. This will ensure reciprocity but it seems to be not true all the time, the contains administrative territorial entity (P150) means both subdivides into administrative division and subdivides into other things. I am using this tool to make sure all subdivisions have other property like country (P17) is set to the same country as the root node. And also to be able to view the hierarchy of subdivision for a country. --112.203.160.147 16:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)"

So that is why since mid-2013, it came to be that on English Wikipedia and other Wikipedias, based on this incorrect addition to the Wikidata item, US Territories were made to INCORRECTLY be located "in" the administrative territorial entity (131) of the United States.

This is incorrect as the only territories in the United States are the 50 states. You can note that the unregistered user, using a script to indiscrimately add this claim, went through the US 50 states correctly, then also included the claim on the US terrorities, which again ARE NOT IN the United States. Look at any map of the US to know what is in the U.S. Other parameters on this wikidata item cover the political status of the territories in relation to the United States. This location claim is incorrect.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:21, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think there might be a misunderstanding about P131. It doesn't mean the USVI are part of the continental US. If the USVI were no longer part of the US, an end date could be added. --- Jura 01:41, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now when you reverted the change, the Arecibo Observatory English article infobox incorrectly shows that it is in the U.S. Is that happening due to this change you made or due to someone's coding of the Arecibo observatory infobox? If you don't mind, please read the discussion on the Arecibo Observaory linked here. We're back to square one again. The US territories are not "in" the US. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are confusing P17 for Arecibo (discussed on its talk page, please continue there) and P131 for USVI (discussed here). --- Jura 14:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What is P131 used for? In your statement you write it doesn't mean it's part of the US. Then you write when it's no longer part of the US it can have an end date. Does P131 indicate USVI is IN the US? If it does, that is wrong.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:09, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote "part of the continental US", not "part of the US". --- Jura 00:09, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know what you wrote and I believe this is incorrect. The wikidata item already states Country = United States (and that is correct). But this particular parameter P131 should not be set to United States because USVI, P.R., Guam, etc are not in the US (continental or otherwise) but I don't think we're communicating. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 03:30, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We just disagree on this point and you went through a series of items to undo statements that had been there almost since inception. --- Jura 04:10, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, is your argument that because the information has been there for a long time it must be correct? The information was added by a user (indiscriminately - making some assumptions that in most cases are correct but in the case of US territories, is incorrect) in mid 2013, and that user after adding the information received many comments on their talk page because he / she introduced errors. When you look at a map of the United States what do you see? Because, when I look at a map of the United States I see 50 states that are located in the administrative territorial entity (P131) of the United States. The same way Canada and Mexico are not in the US; Puerto Rico, USVI and other US territories are not in the US. The last state in the US I believe (alphabetized) is Wyoming.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The CIA World Factbook states, under the Geography section for the United States, that the area of the United States is
Area
"total: 9,833,517 sq km
land: 9,147,593 sq km
water: 685,924 sq km
note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia, no overseas territories" (emphasis is mine)
[1] --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 13:21, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted change by Jura1

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Topic: Regarding: archive and discussion in early 2020 around Jura1 question: here "What country is Puerto Rico in?" ...

The change made here today 9/23 by Jura1, staitng this place is "located in the administrative territorial entity (P131): United States of America (Q30)" is incorrect because there are 50 states in the US and this is not one of them. See links provided including link to discussion in early 2020. (Note: This comment is posted here and on the talk page of Mr. Jura1) - See: here.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ↑ https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

Restoration of non consensual deletion of referencable statement

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@The Eloquent Peasant: I don't see a consensus for your deletion of this statement. If you think it's contested by some reference, please add that as statement. See Help:Sources. --- Jura 18:08, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The reference is on this page. The CIA World Factbook.

Here, I'll quote it: - It is regarding the area of the US.

"Area:This entry includes three subfields. Total area is the sum of all land and water areas delimited by international boundaries and/or coastlines. Land area is the aggregate of all surfaces delimited by international boundaries and/or coastlines, excluding inland water bodies (lakes, reservoirs, rivers). Water area is the sum of the surfaces of all inland water bodies, such as lakes, reservoirs, or rivers, as delimited by international boundaries and/or coastlines.Area field listing

total: 9,833,517 sq km

land: 9,147,593 sq km

water: 685,924 sq km

note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia, no overseas territories

--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm sorry, what? Do you want to put the USVI, Puerto Rico, Guam, the US minor outlying islands etc. in the US again? Has something changed since the discussion in February, 2020? --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • We haven't really developed a consensus for your view on USVI. If you think the statement is contested and that contestation can be referenced, this should be added as a statement to Wikidata. Suppression of differing views is not desirable, even if it may suit your narrative. --- Jura 18:28, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a narrative. It's the CIA stating facts in their World Fact Book about countries. The US has 50 states. But thank you for talking to me - that's an improvement from February when your only response to me was that "So the Spanish national census agency is still doing the census in PR? " What you are doing is incorrect and this is based not on my narrative because I don't have a narrative. It is based on the use of this particular field, "located in the adminsitrative territorial entity". The US has 50 states. So the CIA's narrative about what constitutes the US is what you disagree with. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think you just don't bother reading what people write if that is that only point that you recall. Besides, even your quote mentions overseas territories. If these were not part of the US, one wouldn't bother mentioning them. Please add references to Wikidata items, not Wikidata talk pages. --- Jura 18:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read everything and I understand there are many things with P131. I'm not on your Wikidata team. I know that your decisions here affects infoboxes and how things are displayed on wikipedia articles, to the world. I do know you dismiss me and will do what you please because you're building wikidata. P131 is hierarchical .. and P131 has limitations. The world is reading Wikipedia and the world already knows that the information on wikipedia is unreliable. Have a good day.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 19:02, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If I'm not mistaken, you are not allowed to revert this- based on some topic ban. Even waiting 9 months to do it. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 12:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have a problem with infoboxes on Puerto Rico articles. We had a problem with an anonymous IP user and then a person who named himself Anonymous MK2006 who began adding United States to all the PR articles, a person who came out of nowhere at about the same exact time you came back to this issue.

Doesn't Wikidata affect Wikipedia? Doesn't Wikidata sometimes, or in the near future plan to populate infoboxes in Wikipedia? To answer your first question from 9 months ago Jura1. What country is Puerto Rico in? Puerto Rico is not "in" a country. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 10:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another definition for what constitutes the United States is on the USGS site

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@Jura1: Here is another definition of what constitutes the US from the USGS page: --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 04:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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