User talk:WhatamIdoing

If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. I've given up on my watchlist. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. If you notice the page size getting out of control (>100,000 bytes), then please tell me. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing

We disagree on a lot…

But I have to say that I enjoy our discussions; they’re always civil, and I do appreciate you finding uses for the data that I randomly throw at you, even if you don’t agree with my conclusions about that data.

Thank you! BilledMammal (talk) 23:43, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been wishing for some of these numbers for years. Thank you so much for indulging my requests. I'll be interested in seeing the subject comparisons. Have you considered Category:Declined AfC submissions as a potential 'subject area'?

One of the reasons I've wanted these is because telling editors what's "popular" or "typical" tends to reinforce that situation, without making an Official Rule™. For example, thanks to your numbers, we can now say that the median article cites four sources. Editors tend to respond to that fact with a thought process that runs "Wikipedia is good, and most Wikipedia articles cite at least four sources; therefore, citing at least four sources in an article is good". If we let them run with that for a couple of years, then the median article is likely to have five sources – all without any coercion or rule-making, and just strictly by saying what's common/popular/normal. If we tell them that most articles have 2 to 9 sources, then {{one source}} might get more use, and we might someday even get a {{two sources}} to go with it – and in a few years, we might find that the middle quartiles of Wikipedia articles cite 3 to 10 sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point; I hope it works out that way.

Have you considered Category:Declined AfC submissions as a potential 'subject area'?

I haven't, but it's easy to do - only 20,000 articles. I've started running it, and will hopefully be able to upload those statistics tomorrow. BilledMammal (talk) 14:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I have some hopes that having information will encourage more uniform behavior. It worked for the heading names in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Notes and references. We told people what was popular, without requiring or banning anything, and through various means, over time, the popular option became almost universally preferred. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

See User:BilledMammal/Declined_AFC_statistics. Sorry, took me a little longer to get around to formatting it then I hoped. BilledMammal (talk) 06:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Are the words and sentences headings backwards? And how's it coping with the AFC template stuff? I looked at Draft:Coordinated Lunar Time and it appears to be overcounting the words and undercounting the sentences. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:12, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

They were, fixed.

It won't count content in {{AFC comment}}, or the other templates, if that is what you were asking? BilledMammal (talk) 07:19, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I thought it was skipping that, but then why does it come up with so many words on the page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I looked into it; there was an issue with how I was tokenizing words. I've fixed it, and will rerun when a different program returns. BilledMammal (talk) 08:15, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Fixed and updated. BilledMammal (talk) 10:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal, that's wrong in the opposite direction. Now it says that article only has nine words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I think there was an issue with the upload - it seems to have truncated all figures to a single digit. Sorry, I’ll look into it tomorrow. BilledMammal (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. There's no rush on my end. BTW, for Draft:Coordinated Lunar Time, I count 295 words and 11 sentences. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

A voice of reason

Hi, I am reaching out to you because you provided a much needed voice of reason over on the Talk Page of the International churches of Christ a few weeks back. Right now, two editors are trying ban an editor who is trying to point out that the federal court cases being referenced on the page have been dismissed and they seem to be interpreting that as him trying to suppress negative press on the church. The admin board is here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Meta Voyager's tendentious editing JamieBrown2011 (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I doubt that a trip to the WP:DRAMABOARD will improve that article, and unfortunately, I'm not convinced that the people willing to work on that article are vested in what I'd call improvements. Its problems likely need to be solved in the Wikipedia:Independent sources before they will have even a small chance of being solved on Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@JamieBrown2011, this is WP:CANVASSING and is not permitted. TarnishedPath^talk 01:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Tarnished, Please stop following me around Wikipedia WP:WIKIHOUNDING is also not permitted. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I followed a link from the discussion at WP:ANI which stated that editors had been canvassed to the discussion. Other editors had already highlighted your behaviour. Strike your WP:ASPERSION. TarnishedPath^talk 07:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I wonder occasionally whether editors are capable of understanding the difference between an aspersion and an accusation. I'd classify that as the latter, not the former. I suspect this is part of our WP:UPPERCASE disease, so that it's more important to refer to an ArbCom case about hinting that someone was engaged in real-world criminal activities than to just say that we feel like the person isn't being very friendly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:ASPERSIONS, "On Wikipedia, casting aspersions is a situation where an editor accuses another editor or a group of editors of misbehavior without evidence". If you want to call it an accusation then the matter is still the same as an accusation has been made sans evidence. TarnishedPath^talk 00:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Would you like to explain how you decided to read my talk page and post here for the first time since you created your account in 2007? I assume that the answer is "Why, I checked Special:Contributions/JamieBrown2011 to see what they were up to, of course". WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Refer to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Proposal:_Topic_ban where not far under the heading is the following comment "Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)" TarnishedPath^talk 03:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Hounding is a behavior – innocently intended or otherwise – in which one editor follows another editor, whom he opposes, across multiple pages. So you oppose Jamie at Talk:International Churches of Christ, you oppose their assumed POV at ANI (where they haven't posted at all, and I haven't expressed an opinion on the main subject, BTW), and you oppose them here. That's three pages just during the last week or so. I'd say that constitutes "evidence" of WP:WIKIHOUNDING, and I bet that ArbCom would, too.

BTW, you and @Raladic might want to consider WP:APPNOTE, specifically the bit about "On the user talk pages of concerned editors", with an example of "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)". I did participate in a previous discussion on the specific question of COI edits at the article's talk page – one started by TarnishedPath to discourage JamieBrown2011 from editing that article – and the ANI discussion is partially about COI. It is therefore likely to be an appropriate notification, and since I have declined to participate in the decision at ANI, it would be difficult to claim that there was any harm done. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't follow the link to the diff thinking it was in relation to Jamie. I didn't know who it was in relation to until I landed here. So no, there is no evidence of WP:HOUNDING.

Regarding your reference to APPNOTE, I'd consider WP:INAPPNOTE which states that selective notification of editors who you think have a common viewpoint is inappropriate. Your decision to not participate is entirely up to you. It's the selective notification which is inappropriate. TarnishedPath^talk 03:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

As my POV on the ANI discussion couldn't be determined from my prior comment, then I don't think that this is a case of notifying only editors with whom you think you have a common viewpoint.

My decision not to participate in that way should have been obvious to you when you decided to pointlessly warn me against accepting a notification you disapproved of, from an editor you've been fighting with. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here. I didn't write my comments above as a warning to you, they were directed at Jamie. Personally I wouldn't think twice of it if you did participate. TarnishedPath^talk 04:18, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

If you had only wanted Jamie to see your message, you wouldn't have posted on my talk page.

If you didn't want Jamie to feel WP:HOUNDED, you could have decided against saying anything about it at all. Hounding involves the "singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work...following the target from place to place on Wikipedia". I genuinely don't believe you intended anyone any harm, but you actually have been confronting this editor on multiple pages.

ANI is a really ineffective forum for that type of situation. As I indicated before you posted here, I do not think that participating will do any good. The outcomes will be wasted time, hurt feelings, and a worse article. If we're unlucky, we'll end up with a few more editors who believe that being an ordinary lay member of a religion or other similar organization is generally considered a disqualifying factor for editing articles related to that religion. If we're really unlucky, they'll believe that the community prefers these articles to be written by ex-members. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I posted here because this is where I saw their canvassing. Jamie has clearly not been hounded by me and if you think I have engaged in hounding of them I invite you to take it to ANI. TarnishedPath^talk 05:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to take you, or anyone else, to ANI. I do hope you can see how someone might come to the conclusion that you were hounding them. This isn't about your intentions, but about the appearance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no judgement or knowledge of whether you could be involved in prior discussions, I merely stumbled over this notification that was given to you by chance.

But as I read it as an uninvolved editor, without any prior knowledge of the discussion, it had a clear point of view, which is squarely an WP:INAPPNOTE if it was intended to bring in people who share a specific point of view - Posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions (which may be made known by a userbox, user category, or prior statement) - the message JamieBrown2011 left for you here implied a specific point of view, specifically this part here - Right now, two editors are trying ban an editor.. implies an attempt at potential vote stacking, which is why I issued a warning to JamieBrown2011 on their talk page and tagged the ANI per our policies to warn that inappropriate canvassing may have happened.

You may still be perfectly entitled to participate at the ANI per what you mentioned that you were part of some prior conversations, but it nonetheless made the selective notification above an inappropriate notification as it had a specific non-neutral intent in the way of the notification itself. An WP:APPNOTE must be issued neutrally, which the above was not and also - The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions, which is why it further failed. Raladic (talk) 04:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

My prior involvement was not one that could have led anyone to know my opinions about the accused editor's participation in the article. I made an impersonal statement about the usual ways of applying the COI guideline. If it really was "intended to bring in people who share a specific point of view" and I was "selected on the basis of their opinions", then it would have been more pointful to find people who actually share a specific point of view, rather than someone who has never said anything for, against, to, or about the accused editor.

I think you have jumped to unwarranted conclusions, probably on the basis of incomplete information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd have to strongly disagree with that. Jamie said right above "you provided a much needed voice of reason over on the Talk Page". While you may believe it was completely mysterious how you would view the issue, Jamie, the one who tried to canvass you clearly did not. Therefore it clearly was an attempt at canvassing and unacceptable behaviour. AFAIK, I have no previous interactions with Jamie, and I have no idea what this dispute is about and frankly I DGAF. But I find it deeply disappointing you as an experienced editor would excuse canvassing like this. Consider that it's actual Jamie you're likely to harm by doing this, since there's a fair chance if Jamie keeps trying such nonsense, they will find themselves blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, even if Jamie was completely wrong and there was absolutely no reason to believe you'd provide a "voice of reason" given your previous interactions, it's a moot point. The issue is whether Jamie notified you because they believed you were more likely to share their viewpoint than a random editor, and their comment illustrates that they did. In fact, it's hardly uncommon editors are wrong with their preconceptions about how an editor would view an issues, there are many times when an editor says something like "I'm not going to take part in that discussion since you tried to canvas me, but if I had, I'd actually disagree with you". An editor being wrong about the views of the editors they're trying to canvass has never been a significant factor in whether something is viewed as harmful canvassing, instead it's whether the editor notified people in a manner which was clearly not neutral, such as notifying editors they believed, even if incorrectly, would be more likely than a random editor to share their PoV. Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

(Of course as Raladic said, the comment was also worded in a non-neutral way so could never be considered a neutral non canvassing notification even if they were notifying everyone who'd participating in the previous discussions or whatever. ) Nil Einne (talk) 14:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote on that talk page? IMO it doesn't take much to be perceived as "a voice of reason" there. You just have to say something like "Here's how Wikipedia usually handles questions like this" when other editors are invoking COI to keep unsourced, WP:CHALLENGED material in an article, or saying "I object to any edit made by an COI editor" in an effort to stop all edits by someone with a different POV, when the immediately preceding comments are about which types of edits are explicitly allowed under our rules, and removing your own (allegedly) COI-tainted edit is one of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm probably the one who did the most defending of JamieBrown2011 at the article and they never wrote me. North8000 (talk) 19:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Firstly, thank you for providing a voice of reason over at the ANI. 2ndly, sorry for the drama me posting over here caused you, I see they have attacked you for something I did. 3rdly, I see over at the COIN noticeboard, two editors have created a narrative that they are simply trying to prevent the ICOC page from being whitewashed by myself and MV. I think that is a false narrative. As you know I was the first editor to put the court cases into the article. I believe the ICOC should be accountable for sins its members and leaders commit. Accountability can only make organisations and churches better. However, the opposite appears to be happening. Court cases that have been dismissed over a year ago require pages and pages of discussion to convince certain editors to remove them from the LEAD of the article. No consensus is required to label myself and others as COI editors, while "consensus is required" to remove the labelling. When articles are used to accuse the ICOC of cult like behaviour, (some of them from 30 years ago) and other articles are presented where mistakes are acknowledged and changes made, (even apologies made from organisations that previously labelled the ICOC a cult), there is huge resistance to present those perspectives alongside the accusations. Those objecting even saying they are trying to prevent "whitewashing the article" while in my view tarring and feathering a group sincerely trying to learn from its mistakes. So, all that said, I need advice as to whether to make this case over at the COIN noticeboard or simply let it go and let my arguments and editing make that clear over at the ICOC Talk page...JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent discussions. All I required for the LA lawsuit to be removed from the lead was a reliable secondary source which attested to that. Once one was presented along with the edit removing it from the lead I presented zero objection to that change. TarnishedPath^talk 09:36, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@JamieBrown2011, I don't think you need to make a case against anyone at COIN. Ordinary POV pushing isn't a conflict of interest. While trying to present a religious organization in a less favorable light is sometimes motivated by personal animosity, that doesn't mean there is a real-world relationship between the editor and the subject, and without a relationship, there can be no COI. Therefore I think this is a problem for Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard rather than COIN – assuming the assistance of a noticeboard is wanted at all, which I'm not sure would be helpful at this stage.

BTW, you might try Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library if you're trying to find more sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you on both accounts, those are useful redirects. FYI, I didn't intend to open a new COIN complaint but rather respond over at the current discussion opened by TP. I will try and make my stance clear at the ICOC Talk page, and with much more level headed editors looking on after the recent ANI discussions, hopefully the intimidation tactics and behaviour will improve 🙏 JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If you have capacity, you thoughts would be valued Talk:International Churches of Christ#NPOV JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

WT:MEDRS and Khelif

Thank you for your recent comments on Does WP:MEDRS apply to medical information about individuals? Just to be clear about the "context", there was no specific content that I wanted to include in Imane Khelif - I had no particular interest in the topic and have never intended to include that Khelid is, or according to some may be, intersex. But in discussing a different although related issue (whether to mention the existence of a public debate about her eligibility to compete with women), I made a hypothetical argument [1] that was seen as violating WP:BLP and WP:MEDRS. As there was no real dispute about either content, sources or policies, I am afraid that WikiProject Medicine could not have done anything to prevent such an outcome... My interest in the thread at WT:MEDRS is now mainly theoretical, so to speak. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:03, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a case of WP:Bring me a rock; others might call it Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. If I don't want to have any information in that article about the possibility that Khelif might be intersex or if I want to tell The Truth™ about her being a biological female, then of course I'm going to claim that the highest possible sourcing standards apply. Every experienced editor knows that "We are WP:REQUIRED by the WP:UPPERCASE policy to do this" is far more convincing than "Well, on balance, I think we should..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

yep. In this case POV pushing was not even very "civil", actually... Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that this article will be easier to write in a couple of years, assuming Khelif doesn't retire. Either the rules will change and we'll have sources connecting that rule change to her, or she'll be subjected to sex testing and disqualified from future competitions, and we'll have sources making definitive statements that she is able to compete in only in competitions with self-attestation requirements for intersex people, or she'll be subjected to sex testing and allowed to compete in the more restrictive competitions, and we'll have sources making definitive statements that if she's accepted by "Boxing R US", which requires sex testing and doesn't allow intersex people, then she's definitely not intersex. It's just hard right now. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Infant school FAC candidacy

Hi @WhatamIdoing, I have answered your comments on the infant school nomination. I was wondering if you would like to support it. Llewee (talk) 13:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Single Purpose Accounts

Hi,

A few hours ago you pointed me in the direction of WP:SPA.

In that essay it says: The general test for an SPA is: A user who appears to focus their edits on a particular article or related set of articles in a way which may cause other users to question whether that person's edits are neutral and are reasonably free of promotion, advocacy and personal agendas. Such users may not be aware of project norms, may have engaged in improper uses of an account, and might not be here to build an encyclopedia (my emphasis).

That being the case, I wonder if you could please clarify for me how, as per your suggestion, I could be credibly accused of being an SPA.

You went on to say that doesn't mean that you're a bad or unwanted editor, or that there's anything wrong with your contributions, right?. But looking at the 'general test' above, it does seem that that is what the term SPA means.

I don't believe I have ever edited in a way that might cause other users to question whether [my] edits are neutral and are reasonably free of promotion, advocacy and personal agendas, nor do I believe that anyone could credibly accuse me of having done so.

So, to be honest, I believe I am due an apology (which I would be more than happy to accept here rather than in a public forum).

To be clear, I'm not particularly offended by the suggestion, as it seems to be obviously untrue and to have been made while you were under a misapprehension about the meaning of the term 'SPA'. However, I'd be grateful for clarification from you on that point.

Kind regards, Axad12 (talk) 04:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @Axad12, This page is already a tolerably public forum.

I think you have perhaps developed an unfortunately partial view of Wikipedia:Single-purpose account (an essay, about which see Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays).

While SPA is regularly used as a smear word, especially at AFD and ANI, it's not always a bad thing. The best new editors are often SPAs, because they're trying to improve Wikipedia's coverage about a subject that interests them enough that they have learned something about it. New editors are never aware of the project norms, etc. (and we do a very bad job of teaching them), and knowing something about the subject often looks like "promotion, advocacy and personal agendas" to people who don't know anything about the subject. I refuse to apologize for you obviously having subject-matter interests and subject-specific knowledge. Instead, I invite you to consider whether you should be winning friends and influencing people at not only at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess but also at Wikipedia:WikiProject Boxing. Or at least not spending so much time on the drama boards, which is a highly effective method of giving yourself a skewed view of Wikipedia and often results in unhappiness.

Secondly, there is no actual rule against someone editing only one article or articles on one subject. For example, we've crossed paths before at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. While there are some polymath editors who can contribute competently across a wide range of subjects, I'm usually happy to see our healthcare editors stick to what they know, and for non-healthcare folks to come ask questions (instead of, e.g., assuming that whatever they found on some website is correct).

On the more general subject, you might want to add a few tools to your account. I'd particularly recommend the "userinfo" script that you'll see on line 18 in m:User:WhatamIdoing/global.js. You can copy it to Special:MyPage/common.js if you want it to work only at the English Wikipedia, or to m:Special:MyPage/global.js if you want it to work at all the wikis (e.g., Commons). You'll know it's working if you install it (note that the warning about malicious scripts is automatic and universal; search the archives of Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) if you're worried), follow the directions to reload the page to activate the script, and come back to this page and look just under the article title at the top, where you should find a note about how long I've been editing and some other things. (You can copy any of the items there, but I recommend this one. If you have questions about what the others do, then feel free to ask me.)

If you aren't already using WP:NAVPOPS, then that's easiest to enable in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets (sixth item). I can see that you haven't used Wikipedia:Twinkle, and that's also in prefs, five items below NAVPOPS. These two tools are extremely popular with experienced editors, and I think you will find them useful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, but the general test for an SPA that I mentioned above was located in the link that you had pointed me towards. Since you had pointed me towards it I was working on the assumption that it was a test that you felt might be valid. Under the circumstances I'd genuinely be very grateful if you would clarify whether or not my activity at Wikipedia might cause other users to question whether [my] edits are neutral and are reasonably free of promotion, advocacy and personal agendas. Much of my time is spent at COIN, which would clearly be deeply inappropriate if my editing could be described in that way.

With regards to your broader comments above, I do agree with your point about drama boards and, indeed, I can confirm the truth of what you say from my own experience.

Personally I'm not sure that I really consider COIN to be a drama board (although admittedly it does occasionally veer in that direction). Most of my activity there over the last few months has been either (a) preventing COI/promo editing in a relatively simple and matter of fact way, or (b) assisting COI-lite type editors who just need a little guidance about how to work within the guidelines. To be honest I find those kinds of work quite rewarding and an area where I can usefully contribute.

ANI, on the other hand, is a different thing altogether. I try to only go there when something arising from COIN needs admin oversight. Otherwise it is a learning experience. For example, recently I've learnt from 2 very similar ANI threads that there is little point in intervening in content disputes where one side is accusing the other of uncivil behaviour. It seems it is pretty much predictable that the other side of the dispute will appear and continue their uncivil behaviour (and the content dispute) and there is no point in trying to intervene and thus putting oneself in the crossfire. Or, at the very least, there is no point in me doing so as I lack the experience to resolve such issues.

I think my contributions in chess and boxing are pretty much over. In chess I've significantly extended some stubs, to the point where I basically wrote the whole article. However, those articles are for the chess openings where I have the necessary expertise to do so. I don't think there are any further chess opening articles where I can meaningfully contribute. I've not edited in boxing for some time. Unfortunately the early boxing articles (where my interest lies) are usually drawn from very poor unreliable recent source material rather than from the extensive late 18th/early 19th century source material. Resolving that problem would be a huge exercise equivalent to cleaning out the Augean stables. I have tried to do my best to increase awareness of that old source material, e.g. by providing direct links to online versions and by discussing it on the relevant talk pages. Unfortunately those Wikipedia articles are very obscure subject matter and I just can't justify the time that it would take to sort them out.

To be entirely honest, I consider walking away from Wikipedia on an almost daily basis, simply due to being disillusioned. I don't know if it will be today, tomorrow, next week or next year.

Many thanks for your assistance above, unfortunately I think I am probably just running down my time at the moment. Axad12 (talk) 06:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

To address the disillusionment, I suggest finding something that you want to achieve. Good content will outlive us. Do you want to make a List of boxers in the 19th century? Get the best book about chess, and mine it to add as many refs to as many chess-related articles as you can? (I usually find e-books handy for this, because you can search for keywords.) I've had wiki-friends whose goals were complete discographies for a particular set, or a tiny stub for every single (notable) skin disease. The goal is to identify something that you think you would be able to look back on, decades from now, and say: I really did contribute something to the world.

As for whether you could be accused: Anyone can be accused. You've probably noticed that disputes on wiki happen have a weird, stylized WP:UPPERCASE (← read this one) form. That is, if you say something normal, like "I think this article would be improved by condensing it to the main points and leaving out minor details", nobody cares. You're supposed to say something that looks more like "We are WP:REQUIRED to WP:SUMMARIZE this because of WP:SIZE WP:RULES because all this WP:TRIVIA is WP:NOT WP:ENCYCLOPEDIC". Since Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions, you can often put any shortcut in there that you'd like without anyone noticing. It is not unusual for someone to confidently assert that "WP:SHORTCUT says ____", when that page actually says the opposite. I re-wrote WP:NOTNEWS the other day because I have gotten tired of editors claiming that it prohibits them from adding up-to-date information because it's "only" in the news, and NOTNEWS prohibits us from citing(!) newspaper articles. (In my not-inconsiderable experience, it usually takes two years for a policy change to get noticed, so mark your calendar for 2026, when you can expect someone to quote the new version at me, as if I didn't know what it says. In the meantime, please let me know if you see any evidence that this re-write screws up Wikipedia:Recentism and WP:MEDPOP.)

Back to the main point: Yes, you could be accused, especially by someone who thinks that slinging around some shortcuts will help them win a dispute. Yes, that might even look credible to someone who is already looking for an excuse to complain about you and cares more about 'winning' than about honesty. But the fact is, you will probably encounter such people. About 800,000 registered editors make an account each year. This survey says that 40% of adults admitted to telling a lie during the last 24 hours. Some lies are told on wiki, and half-truths – the carefully omitted context, the partially quoted sentence, the accidentally-on-purpose "forgotten" date – seem to be especially popular on wiki. Additionally, people just honestly do forget things or fail to notice them. For example, a (now former) admin claimed for several years that I opposed WP:ACTRIAL. I was the second-ever editor to express support for it, and I helped draft the original plan for the trial. He'd just forgotten about that. These things happen.

I don't think you should worry about this. These things can be cleared up if they become important. (For example, I eventually dug up the diffs and dropped them into one of his discussions about it, and once he was conclusively and perhaps embarrassingly proved wrong, he shut up about it.) I think you should think about the things you can do that actually make you feel happy and make you feel like you're making a positive difference, and do those. And find some wiki-friends (e.g., in a WikiProject), because when you run into problems, then having someone to help can make a huge difference to your outlook. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your very kind comments above.

You are so right. I derive far more satisfaction from the 7 chess articles that I authored (attracting between them >250,000* views per annum) than I derive from preventing some vain nobody from adding puff to their own Wikipedia article. Or indeed from arguing with uncivil POV pushers, self-citing spammers, LLM users, liars, and the various other types of disruptive flotsam and jetsam who unfortunately often inhabit this site.

I'm very grateful that you've reminded me of this.

(*: 250,000 isn't a huge number in the global scheme of things, but it's way more than enough to have made writing those articles worthwhile.)

I do actually have an idea for adding some new content. I will endeavour to spend more time researching that and less time on things that tend to aggravate me.

Many thanks, Axad12 (talk) 06:40, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations on your achievement. That's a quarter million times that people are getting helped every single year. That is no small thing.

I hope that you have a happy time creating that new content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Axad12, I just played with some numbers, and I thought you might be interested in knowing that 250,000 page views, spread across 7 articles, is in the top 2% of all Wikipedia articles for traffic. If you want to compare the articles individually, then in big round numbers, you can estimate:

• 200K page views per year: article is in the top 0.5%
• 100K page views per year: top 1%
• 50K page views per year: top 1.5%
• 35K page views per year: top 2%
• 10K page views per year: top 5%
• 3.5K page views per year: top 10%
• 1K page views per year: top 20%
• 500 page views per year: top 25%
• 100 page views per year: top 40%
• 50 page views per year: top 50%

The most common number of page views per year in the sample set that @BilledMammal created a while ago was: just one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for this. Very interesting and much appreciated. Axad12 (talk) 06:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The COI noticeboard...

I noticed this edit at the COI noticeboard where you said "I'd be astonished if Wikipedia:Featured articles#Religion, mysticism and mythology was written only by people who had no beliefs about those subjects. Actually, I'd be surprised if any of the FAC noms had no religious beliefs related to the subjects they dedicated so many hours to researching and writing about." - of the 134 FAs in that category - I am the editor who nominated 33 of them for FA. And I helped with a few others on that list. However, I'm not a Catholic, nor even a Christian. I'm just a person who studied medieval history and thus got interested in those topics by that route. You can't assume that just because an editor worked on a religious topic that they have religious beliefs that correlate to the topic. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I am making any assumptions about what the beliefs are, but I am including, e.g., ex-Catholics as being "beliefs related to the subjects", in the sense that a belief against something is as much a belief as a belief in favor of something.

Thank you for the lovely articles you have given us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Advice

Can you offer me advice on dealing with this editor? Emiya1980 (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I wonder whether you could tell me more about what your interests are on Wikipedia. I tend to run across your name in discussions about changing lead images. Is there anything else you like to do? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Since I last opened this thread, Nemov has opened an admin case against me. When I have asked for criteria from him or others on ways I can avoid running afoul of their standards in the future, they are either silent or tell me are under no obligation to "hold my hand". Are you willing to do so or otherwise point me in the direction of someone who is? Emiya1980 (talk) 08:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't realistically believe that I can help you. At the moment, your process appears to be:

1. Change the lead image to the one you prefer.
2. If you don't get your way, start a discussion on the talk page.
3. If you don't get your way, start an RFC on the talk page.
4. Finally – having had your idea rejected once by the person who reverted you, a second time by the editors who didn't agree with you in an ordinary discussion, and then a third time in a RFC – you will finally give up, and move on to another article, where you repeat the same process.

I think the process that other editors would like is:

1. Just stop caring so much about the lead image. Leave them all alone.
2. If you don't stop changing the lead images, and your change gets reverted, then just stop. Leave it alone. Don't make multiple editors reject your idea a second time.
3. If you choose to start a discussion on the talk page instead of stopping after you've been told 'no' once, and that discussion does not produce a clear 'yes', then definitely don't start an RFC to make even more editors reject your idea.

Many editors have trouble reading the room on wiki. It's hard to know when to accept defeat gracefully and when to push back. It's particularly difficult to understand the difference between what you're allowed to do regularly versus what is nominally acceptable behavior, but should only be done occasionally or unusual circumstances.

Here is a heavily rounded back-of-the-envelope estimate about RFCs that might illustrate the situation from the outside.

• About 800,000 registered accounts will make 1+ edits this year. You are less than 0.0001% of this year's editors.
• About 500 RFCs have been started so far this year. You have started 8 RFCs in the last few months. That means that more than 1% of all RFCs were started by you.

The gap between these two percentages is more than five orders of magnitude. If you're familiar with the idea of someone 'taking up too much space' in a social environment (for example, the boss calls a meeting to get information from the employees, but the boss spends the whole time talking instead of listening), then other editors are probably feeling like you are 'taking up too much space'. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Please see my response to your last post over at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Emiya1980's use of Rfcs. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Jedi

	Rescued a Padawan
	Thank you for helping me learn how the Wikipedia world works and giving very helpful suggestions. Music907 (talk) 05:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This simply is not true...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

"Earlier this year, you made false COI accusations about an editor – based on off-wiki information that turned out to be incomplete in important ways – that resulted in that editor feeling strongly pressured to disclose the highly personal situation that led to them being kicked out of the religion they were raised in." just not true, there was nothing false about the COI accusation and the off-wiki information was not incomplete (that would suggest to me that you do not know what off-wiki information we're talking about). You need to retract these false claims, immediately. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

You posted material that at minimum very strongly implied that editor was a member of a given religious organization, when that was false. The person was not a member of that religion. You are entitled to have your own view of your actions, and even to consider yourself a Defender of the Wiki's Purity if you want to, but I think you hurt a vulnerable person, and I, too, am entitled to my own view of your actions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

You misunderstand, the alledged COI was not with the religious organization... It was with the BYU library and the Association for Mormom letters. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Which is an allegation of belonging to a religious organization. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The Association for Mormon Letters is not a religious organization... and the allegations were that they were a former employee of the BYU library not a current one. Both allegations were true. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

A huge portion of that discussion was about whether BYU library students should be assumed to be members of the sponsoring religion, and therefore should be considered to have a religious COI in a way that a student employee of a secular library, doing identical research on local historical figures, would not be. Therefore pushing the students to disclose past associations was inherently an act of pushing them to disclose their religious affiliation – and that editor is not a member of that religion. See also False light. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Different students in different programs, this editor was not a participant in the BYU library wikipedia editing program under discussion. The Association for Mormon Letters COI was also the more signficant one, it was the one which was current. People don't have to be Mormons or students to work for the BYU library, so disclosing former or current employment by the BYU library doesn't disclose either religious affiliation or student status. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

In the context of a discussion in which someone apparently using your account says "You'd be expelled if you left the church[10], presumably that would end any student employment", it is difficult to see how demanding to know whether a person worked for that library is materially different from demanding to know what their religion is.

But as I said: You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to my approval. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be moving the goalposts massively... "Earlier this year, you made false COI accusations about an editor – based on off-wiki information that turned out to be incomplete in important ways – that resulted in that editor feeling strongly pressured to disclose the highly personal situation that led to them being kicked out of the religion they were raised in." is a false claim, you need to retract it. The COI accusations were true and the information was not incomplete in important ways. The editor disclosed their highly personal situation in an apparent attempt to deflect from the valid COI concerns, that was after just straight up lying about it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The COI accusation was false to the extent that it is making a claim about the editor's religion, and it was based on incomplete information because you did not know that the editor's religion had changed or why.

Or let me rephrase that: If you knew before posting that this editor had been kicked out of their religion for being trans, and you decided to pressure them to disclose their religious and gender history anyway, then I don't want you to tell me that, because that would have been despicable behavior, and I would rather not know that about anyone, even if it's true. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There was no pressure to disclose their religious history, whether or not they were a member of the LDS church was not relevent... Whether or not they were a former employee of the Harold E. Lee Library and a current member of the Association for Mormon letters was. The COI claim was not a claim about their religion, it was a claim about professional conflicts of interest. TLDR its possible to have a religious COI, but I did not alledge that this editor had a religious COI... I alledged a pair of professional COI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that you are very good at predicting the effects of social pressure on other people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

"you made false COI accusations about an editor" put me under immense social pressure... False COI accusations are just about the worst thing you can level against someone... And I did not do that, the COI accusations were true and this was confirmed by admin investigation. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Imagine that someone says "I accuse you of working for the Republocrat marketing team. We just spent a thousand words establishing that they basically only hire people who are registered members of the Republocrat political party, but please note: I'm not technically accusing you of being a member of the political party. I'm technically only accusing you of having a job that is basically only available to members."

Would that sound convincing to you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding something, BYU will hire employees and accept students who are not Mormons. The job was not basically only available to members. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We had just established in that discussion that there were almost no non-Mormon students. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

If thats the way you want to look at it I'm also technically accusing them of being a US citizen or legal resident... Becuase the job is basically only available to US citizens and legal residents. But thats just not how it works... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That's not how it works – in your personal opinion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

So in your opinion I am "technically accusing them of being a US citizen or legal resident" and that doing so is inappropriate? How would one then make an employment based COI claim? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The student employment rules are different in the US, but yes, when a person's physical location or nationality is sensitive, then you really have to respect their privacy and not publicly post that information on wiki. Wikipedia:Conflict of interest says:

"If private information must be shared to resolve a COI issue, it may be emailed to [email protected]. Follow the advice in WP:OUTING: "Only the minimum information necessary should be conveyed and the minimum number of people contacted." The priority should be to avoid unnecessary privacy violations."

You did not avoid unnecessary privacy violations. You did not convey the information to the minimum number of people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I have never said I handled the situation excellently, but the COI allegations were not false. When you tell lies about me it hurts my feelings, especially when you refuse to retract or strike those lies. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Whether your accusations were partially false is apparently something that reasonable people can disagree about. Or at least, the two of us can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You did not say that they were partially false, you said they were false point blank and you said that they were based on incomplete evidence. You can't just move the goal posts a bit, either you can support your statement or you can not. You also need to actually say which part was false, so far everything you've brought up as false hasn't turned out to be so... My allegations were true. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

When you tell lies ... those lies.

It seems to me that you are hurting another user’s feelings (again?). Would you consider retract or strike that? --Dustfreeworld (talk) 23:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

If you can demonstrate that they are not lies I will retract the statement. In general telling lies hurts the feelings of the person being lied about, not the person telling the lies. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this is enough. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

And let us be clear about the more fundamental point: The way you handled that hurt real people's feelings.

It is possible to address COI without hurting people's feelings, but that's not the approach you took. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

You didn't accuse me of hurting feelings, you accused me of making false COI allegations, that deeply and profoundly hurt my feelings... Thats why I'm here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Definitions of some English words

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Of course I can demonstrate that they are not “lies” (as said).

They are the opinion (“own view of your actions”) of a Wikipedia editor.

An editor can be either right or wrong on an issue. Even if, I say if, they are wrong, that doesn’t mean they are lying. “Lying” means what they said differs from what they believed. (E.g., I think he’s ugly, but I tell him he’s handsome.)

I hope people can acknowledge that they maybe hurting different editors’ feelings repeatedly, and can avoid doing so in the future. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

me brain aint brainin

My brain during the golden years

Hiya. My brain does not brain today so I have a question.

WP:EDITCON and H:FIES lead people to believe that all edits must have an editsummary. I think the intended meaning is something like "all edits should be explained in advance or upon request" meaning "communication is required". If one writes "All edits should have an editsummary" then people will still parse that as: "editsummaries are required".

I started a section over at Help_talk:Edit_summary#Editsummaries_are_not_required but then my brain shut down and refused to co-operate. Since you are a wordsmith and not afraid of PaGs, would you be so kind to take a look? Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 13:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC frequency

Would you happen to know how many RfCs there are started, on average, per day? Bon courage (talk) 06:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It looks there are 38 in Category:Wikipedia requests for comment today, and most are listed for no more than 30 days, so I'd guess somewhere between one and two.

If you happen to have run across an individual who is starting more than two at a time, and it looks like it might be unnecessary or even potentially disruptive, please drop by WT:RFC with some links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

No it's more a rash of time-wasty ones. I was idly thinking if the volume was low enough whether some additional friction could be introduced into the process to cut down bad RfCs, like them needing a co-sponsor for example, Bon courage (talk) 06:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It's complicated. If someone like us needs a co-sponsor, then we can easily turn one up. But if a newer or less socially well-connected editor needs a co-sponsor, they might not know how to find one, and we might actually need someone to flag a problem at an article. RFCs are one of our defense mechanisms against cliques and POV pushers on low-visibility pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• Speaking of time wasting RFCs. I thought you might want to know this RFC was created. I'd really like to avoid a messy ANI to stop this disruption, but I'm wondering if it's the only way now. Nemov (talk) 23:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  In terms of RFC rules, they've only got one RFC open at the moment, and at a glance, they're following all the other RFC rules. I think ANI is your only option, and I'm not sure that it would be pointful. You'd basically have to make a case that trying to (in their opinion) improve articles is inherently disruptive rather than normal editing, or that following up a revert with a discussion, and if the discussion doesn't go their way, following it with an RFC (and then accepting the results of those RFCs) is somehow bad behavior. It might feel like a Work-to-rule action or Death by Process to everyone else watching those pages, but I don't think it's going to be received sympathetically. I suggest pinging anyone who previously expressed an opinion, so they can repeat their views. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  They've created at least 8 RFCs on infobox images over the last few months. Almost all of them ending in status quo results. There's also been name calling, accusations.... given the editor's inability to listen it might end a topic ban from infobox image discussions. The editor is wasting valuable editor time with these pointless RFCs. I don't really care that much about the topic dispute itself. I've just seen all these RFCs about the same topic. Nemov (talk) 00:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but the editor is now aware that there's a limit on the number of RFCs that should be run at any one time, so that means you shouldn't see more than about 24 per year. Back in the day, we could have tried an RFC/U to organize the evidence and suggest a voluntary agreement to accept discussion results without an RFC to confirm them. But that was disbanded years ago, and the remaining option is ANI, which doesn't deal well with low-speed actions that superficially follow the rules. ANI's toolbox includes TBANs, but unless multiple editors are prepared to make a stink over the same thing, it might well shrug its shoulders and declare that there's no violation of any rules, so no action is needed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  I brought it up at ANI. If the community doesn't care I guess there's nothing else to be done. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 04:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Nemov and Bon courage: See User:BilledMammal/List of RFCs, which may help answer this question - it appears to be just under two per day in 2024.

I was going to use this for a different purpose, but I've decided to retire from Wikipedia instead at the end of next month and so unfortunately it will remain incomplete, but I hope it proves helpful to you.

Note there are some limitations; it doesn't cover discussions prior to 2007, and there are some data inaccuracies with those being more likely for earlier dates. However, it should be useful enough for these purposes - if anyone is interested, I also have the opening statement and the categories the RfC was in. It's too large to easily upload, but I can try to find another way to provide it, or maybe I'll use a bot to create several dozen pages of tables. BilledMammal (talk) 09:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll post this link at WT:RFC. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The most relevant data point from that is this: Until 2021, we opened about three RFCs per day, and now we're down significantly to just two per day. And complaining that there are "so many", even though there are significantly fewer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you and sorry

Thank you and sorry. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:25, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	Thank you for always having insightful commentary on policy backpages. Andre🚐 21:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Civility Barnstar

There's been a lot of discussion lately where things you say have been particularly helpful, centering, and enlightening for me. I blow hot and cold and worry how I come off to others sometimes, but you always carry conversations in a maximally constructive direction, particularly when it comes to how to get along with others. You're among those who consistently reminds me of my own abilities, if that makes sense. I'm only now completing my first full year of actively contributing, so I wanted to thank some of those who are a part of why I'm still enthusiastic about Wikipedia. Remsense ‥ 论 17:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you're here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Gadget/script

Which script/gadget are you using to fill in the editsummaries, if any? I am thinking about writing a Javascript that automatically predicts which editsummary is most applicable. Polygnotus (talk) 22:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

None. I mostly use VisualEditor, which checks your last 200 edit summaries for whatever you type. The Reply tool adds its own ("Reply") if you don't manually override it, which I almost never do. In the 2010 wikitext editor, your web browser remembers your prior edit summaries. I assume the same is true for WP:WikEd, but I've not tried that.

If you'd like to read about some of the prior thinking on this, then phab:T54859 might be a reasonable place to start. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you. It already seemed a bit unlikely that you typed the word "Reply" tens of thousands of times.

Note that VisualEditor and DiscussionTools are (collections of) scripts.

This is why something so simple for some is such an unreasonable request for others:

1. Visual Editor (more specifically /VisualEditor/modules/ve-mw/ui/widgets/ve.ui.MWEditSummaryWidget.js suggests and autocompletes editsummaries based on the user's previous edit summaries.
2. (Misconfigured) browsers save form data
3. People use DiscussionTools

So for some, using an editsummary is not much work. On the other hand we have people like myself:

1. Can't use the Visual Editor because it is horribly confusing and buggy
2. Disabled DiscussionTools because it interferes with normal talkpage usage
3. Form data stored in the browser does not persist across sessions

On mobile it is even worse, imagine having to type the same handful of editsummaries every time on a tiny screen on a cheap smartphone using huge fingers on a tiny onscreen keyboard.

Older/cheaper devices can't run all that nonsense, and if they can it is terribly slow.

Nerds hate all things WYSIWYG with a passion. Newbies can't simply select an editsummary they already used, because they are new.

So while my POV may seem very unreasonable for someone using the latest iPhone who has never had to manually type a editsummary in years, it makes much more sense if you walk a mile in my shoes.

Polygnotus (talk) 07:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I remember The Great Editor War, but I thought people had gotten over it. I remember looking down on Macs compared to MS DOS in the 1980s because I thought I could do more with a command line. Eventually, I realized that there were a finite number of commands available in the command line, and the GUI-based OS listed all of them in a point-and-click interface. (Also, the visual editor is rich text instead of WYSIWYG.)

It looks like you haven't actually used the visual editor, so I'll just say that if while all software of sufficient complexity has bugs, people have managed to make more than 100 million edits in the visual editor, so it's probably not so buggy that you couldn't figure out how to use it. It seems to be preferred by people who are doing significant copyediting and editing tables. I have met nobody who prefers editing table structure (e.g., re-ordering the columns or merging cells) by hand instead of doing it in the visual editor. After getting some experience in both, most experienced editors choose the editor that's best suited to the task they are trying to accomplish.

I support the idea of auto-generated edit summaries. I'm not sure that you'll find them easy, and there is a designing for evil problem. Ideally, you want the system to say things like "Replaced a→an" or "Added sentence: The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" or "Added 1 inline citation". You don't want the system to create edit summaries that will require revdel or OS to remove ("Added sentence: Johnny Brown is gay and his phone number is 555-1234"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Meh, I think the great editor wars were about tribalism, since in that case both were viable options.

I could of course figure out how to use it, but it would be a significant downgrade for my workflow.

I am not against VE; I would recommend it to others, but it is clearly not for me. VE wasn't made with typofixers in mind.

At least the other side of the editsummary debate seems less unreasonable when you discover that they have all these fancy scripts; and don't comprehend that others do not.

Of course no script should ever trust user input, in whatever form. Polygnotus (talk) 16:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Little Bobby Tables and all of that.  ;-)

I could be wrong, but I think that the edit summary debate is based on two things:

• If people believe that this is good manners, so not adding an edit summary must be rude.
• If people are willing to trust user input, then they will not check edits that have plausible edit summaries, so they see other people's time spent writing edit summaries as saving them time (and the five seconds I save is always more important than the 10 seconds they spend).

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Re: Cinnamon Roll Day

Thanks for creating this article. We need more holidays like this. Viriditas (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree, though looking at List of food days#United States there are a lot of events that seem a little odd. I understand "Waffle Day", but Oatmeal Nut Waffle Day sounds like something that somebody just made up one day. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There's something about the smell of sweet, sweet waffles that makes people put a smile on their face. Viriditas (talk) 20:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm not sure that oatmeal evokes the same response. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a unique smell of cooked oats in cookies that works just as well, but yes, not oatmeal by itself. Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you so much for your positive acknowledgement of my contributions to the article related to the recent outbreak in Rwanda. Steven1991 (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome, @Steven1991. It's always good to see a couple of editors working together on an article like that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

On making WP:MED less scary

I've heard from a number of both inexperienced and experienced users that editing medical articles scares them. I think we both know that WPMED could use all the help it can get. I've been trying to brainstorm ways to make it a little less scary for editors to contribute. Some ideas I've had are asking the Wikipedia community what areas are most intimidating, making a more simplified kind of "cheatsheet" for the various policies we have, and volunteering myself over at Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user to assist with helping newer editors get familiar with WPMED. I was wondering if you had any input or ideas on the topic, seeing as you are very active in the community and have been around for a lot longer than I have. IntentionallyDense (talk) 22:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

^{( Buttinsky)} WP:MEDFAQ is still a work-in-progress possible "cheatsheet" for WP:MEDRS. WP:MED is a WikiProject so I'm not sure how to de-scarify that! Bon courage (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bon courage Sorry I meant contributing to pages that fall under WP:MED policies and such. WP:MEDFAQ is nice as an add on to WP:MEDRS but doesn't quite simplify things in a way that some newer editors might need. I do understand why MEDRS is so comprehensive and I think it's important that people understand it but if the amount of detail is what is stopping poeple from contributing then I think it would make sense to help break down some of those barriers. That is of course if that is truly what is stopping people from contributing to WPMED related pages which I don't know for sure. IntentionallyDense (talk) 02:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It would probably be good to review/rewrite MEDRS and MEDMOS both from top to bottom, but I'd estimate that as being closer a year's worth of work than a month's. It would have been nice if we'd written a medicine-focused explanation of DUE when we first talked about it (a decade ago? Long enough ago that would probably be doing some good by now, at any rate). Part of the problem with editors' perception of MEDRS is that we have wielded it as a cudgel to solve DUE problems.

I think some people are always going to avoid editing medicine-related articles, but I think we could do better. I have wondered whether we spend too much time explaining/persuading in MEDRS. Long explanations = fewer people reading them? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in your ideas in regards to rewriting content from MEDMOS and MEDRS. I think a med focused explanation of DUE would be helpful although I'm not sure how one would go about that. I do agree that we spend a bit too much time explaining in MEDRS and I think this is apart of the issue. Perhaps some of the current bulk could be moved to MEDFAQ or similiar pages. I do think that the long explanations is part of what is turning people away (as I myself am guilty of seeing how long a policy page is and simply avoiding it altogether). I'm also going to ask around off-wiki about what barriers people are finding with contributing.

As for next steps, I'm personally thinking of drafting up a bit of a simplified version of MEDRS myself, even just to save time in repeating myself to new users. Other than that I'm not sure what else to do moving forward. IntentionallyDense (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Consider this section:

Avoid primary sources

Per the Wikipedia policies of neutral point of view, no original research, and verifiability, articles need to be based on reliable, independent, published secondary or tertiary sources. For biomedical content, the Wikipedia community relies on guidance contained in expert scientific reviews and textbooks, and in official statements published by major medical and scientific bodies. Note that health-related content in the general news media should not normally be used to source biomedical content in Wikipedia articles. (News sources may be useful for non-biomedical content, such as information about "society and culture" – see WP:MEDPOP.)

Primary sources should NOT normally be used as a basis for biomedical content. This is because primary biomedical literature is exploratory and often not reliable (any given primary source may be contradicted by another). Any text that relies on primary sources should usually have minimal weight, only describe conclusions made by the source, and describe these findings so clearly that any editor can check the sourcing without the need for specialist knowledge. Primary sources should never be cited in support of a conclusion that is not clearly made by the authors (see WP:Synthesis).

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Could it be shortened this much?

Avoid primary sources

Primary sources should NOT normally be used as a basis for biomedical content, because the primary literature is exploratory and often contradictory. Any text that relies on primary sources should usually have minimal weight, restrict itself to clearly stated findings, and describe these findings clearly and conservatively, without undue emphasis.

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I have removed redundant text and pointers to other pages/sections. If we could make it this short, then we might have room for a couple of examples:

• Y Use primary source to provide a supplementary detail, in a passage primarily based on a high-quality secondary source: "For example, onions are a high-fiber food." (Source: Expert, Alice (2024) "Global Study of Macronutrients in Onions", J. Imp. 123:45.)
• N Do not use primary source to say things that aren't actually in the source: "Wonderpam is a breakthrough in cancer cures that has been proven to cure every type of cancer with no side effects." (Source: Business, Bob (2024) "Proposed Endpoints for Future Study", J. Imp. 123:46.)

Do you think that would that be easier? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes these are the types of changes I was thinking of I imagine this can be done for a lot of the current sections as well. IntentionallyDense (talk) 03:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's do-able, but it's a long-term project. This is not something we could put up for a single RFC and be done in a month.

@Colin, what do you think about trying to de-duplicate MEDRS?

Anybody watching this page: Do you think the colorful examples would be really helpful? If not, then I'm happy to skip them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I can imagine somebody coming along with a primary source which does say "Wonderpam is a breakthrough in cancer cures" and arguing that MEDRS allows it because it only prohibits things "that aren't actually in the source". I applaud the use of contractions though. Wikipedia is stuffy about those. Bon courage (talk) 06:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

MEDRS has certainly grown. Some of it is explanation which isn't really guideline material and could be moved to an essay or project page. Wrt redundancy, I think there is a little danger here that our familiarity with other policy/guidelines pages is not shared generally and so where we might see redundancy with some sentence 2/3 way down WP:V, or whatever, it is that sentence that MEDRS is actually building upon with relevance to medical content. I think it is important to concisely explain and continually remind the community that MEDRS is built on top of our core policies and is a consequence of them, not some clique-guideline where editors imposed a local consensus of higher standards (disinformation I'm sure WAID knows many experienced editors repeat).

In the above example, the paragraph of redundancy and source of problems is arguably the second one. Once you have said to base article text on secondary sources like reviews and textbooks, it is technically redundant to say that primary source are discouraged, and not perhaps wise I think to spend time on examples of the worst practice rather than good practice. But redundancy is not always bad. Sometimes it helps to say the same thing from another angle.

In the first example, an aside about onions being high fibre may appear uncontroversial and safe to cite a primary research source, but what if the article noted that blueberries where a good source of antioxidants, which have been shown to prevent cancer and slow aging. That aside is not uncontroversial but it is still a "supplementary detail", in an article about blueberry muffins.

The second example is one that simply fails WP:V. Don't use any source to say things that aren't actually in the source. We don't need MEDRS to deal with things an editor just made up. It is needed more for the more subtle claims that wonderpam has been found to be beneficial for some lung cancer patients, or that a trial in 2021 found that melanoma was eliminated in some patients taking wonderpam. Such statements lack all the caveats and red flags that the medical-professional author of a good secondary source would be seeing.

Assuming a revised MEDRS contained the same overall structure, a "basic advice" section may well summarise (like a lead) advice that is covered in more detail later. A brief mention here that, ok, when we said to use secondary sources, we didn't mean these secondary sources: newspapers. Avoiding the popular press is one of the fundamentals of MEDRS, so I wouldn't drop that from "basic advice". Elsewhere on Wikipedia, the popular press and news websites are often a key source, particularly for current controversies, and often where readers/editors first learn about some medical advancement or health conditions. So it is surprising to many to find Wikipedia discourages that. Similarly, it is really surprising for many, particularly with an academic background, that a primary research paper in the Lancet or BMJ or NEJM, all top tier sources of medical research and science of the highest quality, isn't what we want. Thirdly, it is surprise that PubMed/GoogleScholar/etc will find research in low quality journals and that "peer reviewed journal" is not a guarantee that all articles are peer reviewed or are sufficient for including on WP. I wonder if these three things are the core messages of most use to most editors. Are there others? While the advice about primary research papers is mainly a DUE matter, the other issues about newspapers or weak journals or opinion/editorial articles are more RS. -- Colin°^Talk 12:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Colin You've certaintly given me a lot to think about. Understandably any changed to MEDRS would need a lot time to impliment but what do you think about making a simplified version of MEDRS? Something similiar to the basic advice section. This could be done as a user essay and wouldn't be intended to replace MEDRS in any way but just meant to give people an introduction in the hopes that they will continue editing and find themselves reading the actual version regardless (ideally reading the full version to start but we all know that doesn't always happen). IntentionallyDense (talk) 13:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the fact that the MEDRS FAQ is about half the size of MEDRS says this is a hard problem. The FAQ takes a question-answer approach and assumes the reader needs a good deal of hand holding. What's your audience for your simple-MEDRS? Is it things I wish I'd known when starting out editing medical articles? Or things I keep having to tell others when they edit medical articles with bad sources or with claims that shouldn't be drawn from the sources they found. Or something else. As WAID notes, many editors just want "per MEDRS" to be the reason why they just removed the text an editor added. They aren't really citing it to help the editor, but rather to justify their action to themselves and other experienced editors. This is probably true of a lot of policy and guidelines.

I'm conscious about the saying about complex problems having apparently easy solutions which aren't. It is a bit scary to edit a medical article because as soon as you try you realise you are on the start of a learning curve with a fair way to go. -- Colin°^Talk 14:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Colin It may make more sense if I give the context in which I got this idea. I had an experienced user reach out to me after they had to make edits to a medical page in order to removed copyrighted material. I gave them a brief rundown of what sources are acceptable etc. I think it’s cases like this where people just want to make a few edits to a medical article but are overwhelmed by the amount of policies where a simplified version of MEDRS would make sense. It would be more of a starting point for people just wanting to dip their toes into editing medical articles rather than people trying to make huge edits (as that would be something where reading the full MEDRS would be valuable). I hope that helps clarify things a bit. I realize I’m being somewhat vague but that’s because I don’t necessarily want to put time into something that isn’t a great idea or might do more harm than good. IntentionallyDense (talk) 17:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

In the category of what already exists:

• Wikipedia:Ten simple rules for editing Wikipedia – not specific to medical information, but closely aligned
• Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)/FAQ
• Wikipedia:Why MEDRS?
• Wikipedia:Plain and simple guide for medical editors
• Help:Wikipedia editing for medical experts

Something called "plain and simple" sounds like it could be what you're looking for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey,

WAID, please don’t learn from the other (lazy) editors who didn’t fact check before editing our articles. Do your research first even though you are just making comments, or, just ask! :-) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 00:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

We all have our lazy moments. Fortunately, other editors sometimes catch our mistakes. :-)

The article indicates that the classification of foods as yin/yang is not the same in China as in the macrobiotic culture. I imagine that this must be confusing for some Chinese people, as they learn from childhood that peppers 🌶️ are "yang", and then the macrobiotic people say they are "yin". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Hm

Note that those guys don't like to pay people. So "seminar leaders" are all unpaid volunteers. Lying by omission is a thing. Polygnotus (talk) 04:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The omission of any mention of unpaid activities seemed odd for a volunteer-heavy organization. (I'm not saying the volunteers don't get any benefit. If they're training their volunteers on how to lead effective seminars, then that's a valuable skill that other people pay money to acquire.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a long history, I can dig up diffs if you want them, but they seem to believe that WP:COI does not apply to them as long as they don't admit to having one. At various stages various others have stated that, no matter what they say, they do have a COI. The volunteers do benefit of course, just not financially (the same as us Wikipedians), but not by gaining what I would consider valuable skills. Polygnotus (talk) 04:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't need any diffs. It's not especially important to me. I just thought that if he could honestly say that nobody in the organization knew he was a Wikipedia editor, then he should say so. He seems honest, so I don't think he'd directly lie. After all these years, he might not want to bother, though, so I don't think that a failure to add such a statement should be construed as him admitting the opposite. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I am a lot more jaded, in general and in relation to this topic. But that is probably a logical consequence of reading the archives. Polygnotus (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

On WP:NOCON

I recently ran across a policy that was changed based on a Village Pump discussion a while back. The issue is - the individual who closed the discussion stated that there wasn't a consensus on several points which ended up being added to the policy.

Wouldn't a closing statement along the lines of "no consensus regarding X, No consensus regarding Y, consensus was found in favor of Z" prevent "Editors cannot do X in this situation, editors cannot do Y in this situation"? As in, no consensus = no agreement to add to policy? Unless I'm completely misreading WP:NOCON, I thought both a strong agreement was needed for policy changes, and a no consensus is not the same as 'consensus found in favor to exclude/change'.

Appreciate any insight you have on this :-) Awshort (talk) 14:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Awshort, I could rant about that policy section – one of the few I really regret creating – at length, but I think it would be more pointful if I looked at the specific situation. Can you give me a few links?

Also, if you haven't read WP:STATUSQUO in the last year or so, then you might find the difference between what it actually says, and what editors sometimes claim it says when they're slinging some WP:UPPERCASE around in a dispute, to be helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

The original discussion was at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 165#People's birthdate, conflicting (reliable) sources, and WP:SYNTHESIS , which was added to WP:DOB upon its close.

The closure text Closed with a consensus to include all birth dates for which a reliable source exists, noting discrepancies. There was no consensus to contact the subject themselves, no consensus to include only one "most likely" date or to choose a date from one of two or more reliable sources, no consensus to leave the information out entirely if conflicting dates have actually been reported in reliable sources, and no consensus to attempt WP:OR to extrapolate the date of birth ourselves. Once a clear and consistent date of birth has been widely reported, the consensus is to update the information to reflect this. (Emphasis mine) does not match the policy section text that currently exists If multiple independent reliable sources state differing years or dates of birth in conflict, include all birth dates/years for which a reliable source exists, clearly noting discrepancies. In this situation, editors must not include only one date/year which they consider "most likely", or include merely a single date from one of two or more reliable sources. Original research must not be used to extrapolate the date of birth.

Unfortunately, the added text is widely used in discussions regarding conflicting sources or age confusion, so it cannot be boldly changed. I was thinking possibly a new discussion on either Village Pump (Policy) or maybe the BLP talk page and using the Under Discussion template?

Thank you again for your advice!

Awshort (talk) 00:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hipal and @Thryduulf, it looks like you were both in that 2021 RFC. Do you remember anything about it? I have just read it, and I'm not overly impressed with the closing summary. I saw a lot more editors suggesting omission.

On its face, a strict interpretation of this edit to BLP (made by one of the belligerents) would be inappropriate, as there's no provision for ignoring simple errors. If 99 sources say "Octember 32nd" and one says "Octember 2nd", you really should just ignore that last one. There is no reason to write something like "Most sources give his birthday as Octember 32nd, but The Daily Typo once said it was Octember 2nd". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remember that discussion but I've just re-read it. The closing summary isn't inaccurate per se but it could have been worded a lot better. As for what we should do, I think it's probably best to phrase it something like as follows:

• If the subject is subject is living and it is reported in reliable sources that they do not wish (part of) their birth date to be public; or there is an OTRS/VRT ticket noting they have contacted us requesting (part of) their birth date be omitted; follow their wishes unless their (full) birth date is reported in multiple highly reliable sources by sources that are clearly aware of the subject's wishes (in this situation always include a citation to the awareness).
• If there is a single date consistently reported in reliable sources, there is consensus it should be included
• If the subject has clearly stated their own birth date in a source that is controlled by them or reliable for direct quotes, then it should be included
  • If reliable sources explicitly dispute the date given by the subject then include both the subject's preferred date and a note that this is disputed (in most cases this should probably be expanded in the prose).
• If there are multiple different dates:
  • Ignore outliers and obvious errors (e.g. if 5 sources give the same date and 1 gives a different one) and treat as a single date if there is one
  • If third party reliable sources report on the discrepancy, report the discrepancy cited to the third party sources.
  • If the subject's age or birth date are directly relevant to their notability, report all the dates that are very clearly reliably sourced and note the discrepancy.
  • In other cases omit the date.
• If the reliability of all the sources for the birth date is suspect or unclear, omit mention of the date.
• If part of the date is reliably sourced but the other part is not, include only the reliably sourced part.
• Calculation based on reliably sourced age-as-of-date mentions is permitted (e.g. "born 1984 or 1985").
  • If multiple sources give multiple such dates and they all converge on a single year (e.g. 1984-1985 and 1985-1986) then use "born c. 1985" or "born c. 1984-86")
  • If multiple such dates are present in reliable sources that give non-overlapping ranges, then omit the date unless their age is directly relevant to their notability (in which case give both ranges and note the discrepancy).
• If the birth day and birth year can only be sourced separately, the combination can be included only if there is no contradiction with e.g. age-as-of-dates. If included, both parts should be cited separately.
• Omit a mention entirely if the date can only be determined through original research, unreliable sources, or interpreting clues.

In all cases, use only the highest quality sources suitable for BLPs. Sources that are directly about the subject (e.g. an interview or profile) are more likely to be reliable than sources which mention them incidentally. As a general principle, report discrepancies only if reliable sources do or the subject's birth date or age is directly relevant to their notability.

This would need rewording for clarity and concision and checking for consensus before including anywhere. Thryduulf (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds correct to me, and it looks too long for the policy. Are you up for turning this into a {{supplement}} and linking to it in WP:DOB? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but not this evening. Please ping me afternoon/early evening (UK time) in a day or so. Thryduulf (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Very good breakdown, Thryduulf!

I'd add a case for the rather common situation where the subject is inconsistent about their own birth date.

...that are clearly aware of the subject's wishes... That's a high bar, though a good one. I'm not sure there's strong consensus for it. Likewise, If third party reliable sources report on the discrepancy....

A new discussion is a good idea. --Hipal (talk) 03:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hipal, WhatamIdoing, and Awshort: I've written a second draft at User:Thryduulf/DOB supplement with the intention that it be moved to Wikipedia space as a supplement when there has been consensus for it. Discussion should be at User talk:Thryduulf/DOB supplement, I'll place a note at WP:DOB's talk page but please advertise it elsewhere/to others too. Thryduulf (talk) 14:06, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look today. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Strawman

If you use a strawman then I know that you know. Writing in general is fine, writing articles from scratch didn't work out so well last time. I am trying to help them. It is very discouraging to work hard on, lets say, Unstable DNA sequence and then to discover that Genome instability already exists. Or work on Draft:Shortening of the eye muscle when we have Strabismus surgery. Or work on Draft:Vaccine myths and misconceptions and discover that we have Vaccine hesitancy and Vaccine misinformation already. Or Drugs and sexual performance which ends up being redirected to Sex and drugs. Or Draft:Chromosome mapping and Gene mapping. Or Draft:Anti-HIV agents and Management of HIV/AIDS.

Last time no one helped them figure out which topics to write about. Same with those other drafts. So it looks like our options are to let them contribute to existing articles, or to let someone else make the list of possible article topics. Having them contribute to existing topics fixes the biggest flaw of the previous iteration. We already have a big problem with editor retention, it may be wise to not WP:BITE all those students. I can detect problems that haven't been fixed yet, by anyone, and we don't require that someone fixes a problem before they are allowed to point it out. Polygnotus (talk) 04:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We're already set up to give them a decent list, so that's not a problem.

The last item in your list may have been wrongly declined. Bluethricecreamman, properly speaking, Draft:Anti-HIV agents is a subtopic of Antivirals. There is more to managing HIV than just the antiviral drugs themselves (e.g., Management of HIV/AIDS#Food insecurity; also, treatments for opportunistic infections). I suggest moving that to the mainspace, ideally under the Antiretroviral name.

The others should probably be moved to the mainspace and tagged for merging, because Wikipedia needs up-to-date medical content, and leaving it in the Draft: space until it gets auto-deleted is not actually helping anyone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It was a problem at the time of my comments tho. And indeed it is REALLY discouraging to have a draft deleted because the class is over and no one bothered to follow up on the AfC review. So it would really suck to have a new iteration of the same course repeat the same mistakes. And the instructor, who is not a super experienced Wikipedian, can really use some help (and that unfortunately includes things they are not happy to hear). Polygnotus (talk) 05:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I could be wrong, but I smell a WP:LEGITSOCK there. The class isn't making enough mistakes for the instructor to actually be inexperienced.

If the students aren't following up, then I'm not sure how discouraged they would actually be. They might not even notice. We're the ones that are losing out. I am going to die one of these days (you, too; sorry if that's news to you), and good content will outlive us. It would actually be better to get those pages out of AFC's hair and into the mainspace, tag them for merging, and let the WP:MED folks follow up on it. Anything tagged for the project and for merging will turn up on Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Article alerts and be handled in due course. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:43, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't expect you to say that. Is it a hunch, or is there more? I haven't done an in-depth investigation, but I have seen the instructor make mistakes; the same mistakes I would expect a well-meaning but inexperienced person to make. Why would an experienced instructor let students write a new article on a topic that is already covered? Especially Vaccine myths and misconceptions in 2024, post-COVID? It sucks that AfC is so backlogged, but Category:Articles to be merged isn't exactly empty either. Polygnotus (talk) 06:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the instructor will turn out to be an admin with 20 years experience. A highly experienced editor would never have trusted the "missing articles" lists. But I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the instructor either has a second account (which is fine; there's no reason for the students to know what subjects interest the instructor personally) or has someone close at hand to explain things. For example, you made about 3,000 edits before the first time you tried to move a page. The instructor moved a page – cross namespace – around the 70th edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:27, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I checked, and that ain't it (they don't match the pattern). They're just arrogant. And cross namespace moves are probably explained in the WikiEdu tutorial (and if they are that might be a problem because they should use AfC). Polygnotus (talk) 07:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I then fact-checked myself, because that is the kind of (incredibly boring) person I am, and in 908-move-your-page.yml it teachers the instructors how to do a cross-namespace move. Do you agree that they should use AfC? We can ask them to remove that information and teach the instructors to use AfC instead. Also the instructions on how to check if a topic is already covered consist of a single sentence in 907-move-out-of-the-sandbox-new-article.yml so it is not surprising that this goes wrong. The WikiEdu instructions need to be improved, because they are setting instructors up for failure which in turn set up students up for failure. Polygnotus (talk) 07:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Using AfC would probably be better than not using AfC. Would it be worthwhile suggesting they use the article wizard, so that they get the blue buttons? Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea to me. And I love the idea of an article wizard. WhatamIdoing what do you think? Polygnotus (talk) 08:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I know you are a busy person, but it would be nice to hear your opinion. If you agree then I can contact User:Ragesoss and make some suggestions. Polygnotus (talk) 23:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm conflicted. AFC can be helpful, and I'd probably encourage that for articles about people and organizations, but when it comes to this particular class, AFC is more likely to reject articles that Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing instructions says they should accept. For example (sorry, @IntentionallyDense; I'm going to pick on you for a moment) Draft:Prescription drug overuse has been declined. It has 36 sources (the median is 4). It has 1800 words (the median is 350). Most importantly, there is no chance of the subject being declared non-notable at AFD, which is theoretically the primary standard for AFC acceptance.

So why was it rejected? Probably because one (1) paragraph doesn't have its own inline citation. For comparison, Prescription drug has 10 uncited paragraphs, and Drug overdose has 4 uncited paragraphs. We are holding these students' work to a higher standard than we use on articles that we've been developing for years, and that is IMO neither fair nor helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

As someone who has literally zero experience with AfC I cannot judge if this is something that happens so frequently that the benefits of AfC are outweighed by its downsides. And I also don't know how fixable this is (e.g. with better instructions, raising the standards for reviewers, having more oversight e.g. a supervisor or whatever). Are you saying that AfC is so flawed that it is more likely to hurt than help? And what if we compare it not to a (hypothetical) perfect system, but to having the articles moved to mainspace by a teacher who usually has little to no experience and is usually underpaid and highly stressed (or at least that is true for every teacher I have ever met). Also, perhaps we could get the Wiki Ed Staff (who are supposed to be experienced Wikipedians) to do the crossnamespace moves instead of the teacher. Based on a quick check on the dashboard it looks like this particular class is the exception (medical topics, a higher standard of quality), so it would still be wise to update the instructions for other classes. Polygnotus (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like there are two things going on here:

1. How can we fix AFC? Answer: Realistically, I think the answer is by not letting anybody complain at or about them for having 'low' standards. And that's not a realistic action, because we could have a 100-person RFC with unanimous agreement on this point, and Editor #101 wouldn't get the memo, or Editor #99 would think "Sure, we agreed not to complain, but we didn't mean not complaining about huge problems like this one".
2. How can we restrict new student editors more than new non-student editors? I think the only relevant answer is: We shouldn't. New editors make lots of mistakes, but student editors make fewer of them.

The first problem is one of the reasons that I've been repeating the facts about existing articles: The median Wikipedia article has 4 refs. Not four refs that demonstrate notability – four of any kind. If you're declining articles with 20 refs at AFC for being undersourced, you are probably screwing up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no issues with being picked on. I turned that article down when I was newer to AFC and if I had to go back I would probably make a comment asking them to fix up the citation needed tags (as I know it's common for editors to simply forget to cite things) but at the time I was a little heavy handed with the decline button. As for a work around with this issue, I'm still quite new to AFC so I'm not 100%. Calling people out for their mistakes (as WAID has done) is probably a good start as well as communicating with the editor more (which I failed to do). Something along the lines of "this article looks really good, do you know where you got that unsourced info from" probably would have been more helpful than just outright denying the article. I don't know the full context of this convo but those are my thoughts. IntentionallyDense (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

{od} @IntentionallyDense, my question is: Why are we thinking that it's necessary to resolve the {{citation needed}} tags before accepting the article?

Before answering that question, see WP:AFCPURPOSE:

"The purpose of reviewing is to identify which submissions will be deleted and which won't. Articles that will probably survive a listing at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion should be accepted. Articles that will probably not survive should be declined. Issues that do not affect the likelihood of success at AFD (e.g., halo effects like formatting) should not be considered."

If this article were nominated for deletion at WP:AFD, would it be likely to survive?

Yes, it will probably be kept.	Then ACCEPT it now. (You can tag non-deletion-worthy problems.)
No, it will be deleted.	Then DECLINE it. Please explain why you believe it would be deleted.
Maybe, but I'm not sure.	Then ASK FOR HELP on the talk page.

A couple of uncited sentences are "non-deletion-worthy problems" that should not prevent acceptance. And yet not only you, but multiple AFC editors, decline articles over those problems. IMO it's because the rules give the theory, and the editors respond to the social system, i.e., to their well-founded concern that if they follow the rules, other editors will yell at them or despise them for being too lenient. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, Bluethricecreamman is a really cool name. Polygnotus (talk) 05:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree! WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Clearly I haven't read into the process enough and that is where my mistake came in. As for others, I'm not sure. I suspect some, like me, misunderstood the purpose of AFC and were too strict. In hindsight, it would be nice to resolve all citation needed tags, but it is not necessary. I didn't really understand that when I started out doing AFC but I do now and will going forward. IntentionallyDense (talk) 21:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Your action is pretty typical. It's very rare for anyone to complain if an AFC reviewer upholds "the highest possible standards". I'd suggest accepting that particular one now, but I haven't figured out how to solve the bigger problem. We could set a bot to "welcome" every AFCer the first time they decline an article, but what's needed is a culture shift. We need AFC and NPP folks to believe that their job is about getting deletion-worthy articles deleted, and getting non-deletion-worthy articles out of their queue. Those fact-tags ought to be Somebody else's problem in the mainspace, rather than AFC's problem in the Draft: space. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

This may be a dicussion better fitted for the AFC or NPP talkpage as well. IntentionallyDense (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if what they need is something closer to the WP:AE rules, namely some protection from taking unpopular actions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure what you mean by that sorry. IntentionallyDense (talk) 23:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

One of the ways that we convince admins to work at AE is to provide them with a level of formal protection for their choices. We recognize that mistakes are going to be made (e.g., due to incomplete information), and we recognize that de-sysopping the folks who are willing to deal with the mess, or dragging them off to ArbCom for every mistake, is not going to help. We accept the mistakes as the price of having admins willing to participate in AE.

We don't have a history with AFC and NPP of tolerating mistakes that are made to accept articles. In fact, we have a history of ugly ANI drama over highly active participants who have an error rate (in the eyes of the beholder, of course) of a small single-digit percentage, because 1% of 2,000 processed articles is 20 mistakes, which looks very impressive when you list them all out with their "obvious" signs of problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I see that makes sense. I do feel this would be helpful because I know personally I was terrified of accidentally accepting an article that wasn’t ready and that probably led me to be overly harsh. IntentionallyDense (talk) 04:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you remember what steps you took to learn about how to review drafts? Did the instructions leave you more nervous, or did they tend to be reassuring? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

For AFC I felt reassured by the instructions and it felt lower stakes. NPP on the other hand felt very nerve racking. I felt like every move I would take would be scrutinized. I definitely made more mistakes with NPP as well cause the stakes are a bit higher in my opinion. IntentionallyDense (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a framing problem. You can frame it as a "reviewer" role, which can be perceived as adversarial (like a goalkeeper who shouldn't let trash slip through), or as a "helper" role (as in help them write a better Wikipedia article and use the correct templates and syntax). As someone with no experience with AfC I kinda assumed it would be the latter.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a few checkboxes and a button near the top of the draft. Something like it (1) is not copyvio (2) there is no existing article on this topic (3) is notable then publish. That is only a slight simplification of the workflow. Polygnotus (talk) 07:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus, I think that NPP needs a similar workflow. I don't know if you've ever taken a look at page views for new articles, but right now, what happens is:

• Within the first hour, multiple people check the page for hoax/attack/obvious deletion-worthy problems. These people are not interested in 'accepting' pages; they are interested in getting rid of serious problems. They are duplicating each other's work, with no idea that anyone else has already checked this page.
• During the next day or two, several people look at the article. If the subject is difficult to evaluate (e.g., WP:NEVERHEARDOFIT), then they might add a tag, but mostly they do nothing.
• Eventually, one of a few stalwarts runs through the list (usually looking at articles that are 30–60 days old), and if notability isn't 'demonstrated' (an unwritten rule), then they shove it into the Draft: namespace.

If Special:NewPagesFeed could let NPPers tick off items like 'not db-copyvio', 'not db-hoax', and so forth, then they might waste less time, accomplish more, and feel less stressed about the "huge" backlog of pages that have already been reviewed multiple times. (Another misfeature I'd like to see fixed is the reported age, which is the age of first revision, not days that the page has been in the review queue.)

BTW, it is important to remember that neither NPPers nor AFCers are actually publishing the pages. "Publish" is what happens when you click the big blue button in the editing environment. Publishing is not what happens when a page is removed from the noindex list or moved to a different namespace. There is legal liability involved publishing some things, and nobody should put that on the NPP or AFC folks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I think using Javascript is morally wrong, but it would be pretty easy to add something to {{AfC submission}} like:

Condition 1 [mark this as done]

Condition 2 [mark this as done]

Condition 3 [mark this as done]

And then when you click on them they look like this:

Not copyvio  Checked Polygnotus (talk) 07:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Not a hoax  Checked WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Notable  Checked Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The Javascript should then of course add appropriate categories (and possibly remove inappropriate ones). It could even move the article from draft to main if all 3 conditions are met, although it may be hard to get consensus for that.

It looks like NPP doesn't have an equivalent of {{AfC submission}}, so perhaps it is better to simply move those 3 conditions to under the article title.

This Javascript can then be added as a gadget so that its easy to install for people who want to work on AfC stuff. Thanks to oAuth you could even restrict its usage to people who are, for example, extendedconfirmed or have a specific userright.

My User:Polygnotus/Scripts/TypoFixer also makes an edit when you click on a link.

If NPP and AfC require just 3 clicks per article, perhaps it is easier to reduce the backlog and clearer to reviewers what they should and should not check.

In theory it would be possible to modify Special:NewPagesFeed so that this information is displayed, and people can filter. But it looks like the interface has barely changed since 2012.

It may be wise to just ask the top ~5 reviewers which criteria they check, what the most common reasons to fail a draft are, what they spend most time on, and how we can make their life easier. Polygnotus (talk) 07:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Helper script already exists, though it probably needs an active maintainer. (I haven't checked, but almost all of our scripts need an active maintainer.)

I don't think the "most common reason to fail a draft" is the right point, as they might have a high volume of very easy declines. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks!

I just wanted to say thank you for weighing in on the Pickathon page. I've since been blocked, but it was incredibly heartening to hear from someone who didn't make me feel like banging my head against a wall. Monkeywire (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome, @Monkeywire. BTW, much of the 'practical' content about any established/enduring music festival would likely be welcome at voy:. There isn't an article for Happy Valley specifically, but voy:en:Portland Metropolitan Area#Eastside suggests that either voy:en:Portland (Oregon)/Eastside or voy:en:Gladstone (Oregon) are nearby. Find the ==Do== section, and click the [add listing] button. Fill in the form, and you're done.

In case you want to create an article for Happy Valley (which is plausible), see voy:en:WV:WIAA for a quick explanation of their equivalent of notability. It could also be added to the list at voy:en:Music festivals#USA, but that's already a long list, and they really don't like long lists. Sub-articles about groups of music festivals, or an itinerary that takes you through several of them, would probably be welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I think I need to step away from Wikipedia, though, at least for a while. I find these kind of altercations super stressful, and they make editing here pretty un-fun. Monkeywire (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Consider making Wikivoyage your bolthole on the internet. It's a nice community, and generally very laidback. They even allow paid editors without significant difficulties, though blatant "touting" is removed. Or, you know, we'll still be here at a later date. Come back when you feel like it, even if it's just to fix a typo you happen to see. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds cool, I'll check it out.

Wiki is lucky to have you. I wish I could copy your ability to problem-solve without getting enmeshed in a fight. Monkeywire (talk) 13:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

From ANI

I wrote It is not normal for productive contributors to Wikipedia to have 34% of their edits to WP:space, for obvious reasons. You responded AFD regulars frequently have a very high proportion of edits in the Wikipedia: namespace, as do people who help out at the noticeboards. For example, Jclemens has 33% of his edits in that namespace, and JoelleJay has 44% of her edits there, and nobody thinks that's a bad thing (except possibly the UPE scammers). Personally I do not think the editing pattern of either of the editors you mention is "normal" for a productive contributor to Wikipedia in my experience. Perhaps more importantly, neither of their contributions to WP:space is remotely like Warrenmck's. It would be better if that discussion had more uninvolved people pushing Warrenmck away from their current path, not suggesting that it is similar to unrelated valuable contributions that people make in WP:space. --JBL (talk) 18:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the idea that there is only one normal way to contribute to Wikipedia is an idea that promotes the community's overall health. We need diversity in types of contribution. Hanging out on noticeboards can be a very good thing, or it can be a very bad thing, and it is frequently somewhere in the middle. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I see, your comment has nothing to do with any point I was making, nor with the thread in which you placed it. Ok then. Probably would have been better on my user talk! --JBL (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

In this particular case, I may be a particularly poor example, as my contributions peaked in 2011-12 when I served on the arbitration committee, but before that I was quite active as an administrator in deleting articles, in addition to my current, more modest participation which is indeed centered around AfD/DRV. I'm certain various people have various opinions on whether I'm a productive contributor to Wikipedia or not, but my point is that once someone has gotten sucked from content creation into project maintenance activities, it's uncommon for anyone to entirely abandon those activities. If I were to suddenly find myself with nothing to do but Wikipedia work, I would probably return to GA work which is rewarding but less tolerant of work- or school-associated absences. Jclemens (talk) 21:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's something I've been thinking about: If someone voluntarily moves from 'front stage' to 'back stage', then they tend to stay back stage.

If we nudge high-volume article creators to make that shift, how many will be successful in the back stage? And how many will get disgusted by it all and quit? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I do not believe, and nothing about any of my comments is meant to suggest, that you are not a productive contributor -- what you're not is a normal productive contributor. (Ditto JoelleJay.) --JBL (talk) 23:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

JoelleJay is important to me: She is willing to persistently disagree with me, and she has the skills to do so without being ugly. That combination doesn't happen as often as might be good for Wikipedia. We still disagree on multiple points, and I still believe that editors ought to think about her reasons and go out of their way to do something nice for her.

Part of the difficulty with the word normal is the implication that average is good. Nobody with 10,000+ edits is a statistically average editor; we are all abnormal in the sense of being statistical outliers. However, most editors with 10,000+ edits are productive, desirable contributors; we are not abnormal in the sense of deviating from acceptable social norms. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

War widow

I haven't written this, exactly, but I have written Artis Henderson Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me about this article. It sounds like it could be an interesting book. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

has there ever been consideration of an SPS Noticeboard?

I got involved in an RSN discussion of whether a page on GLAAD's website is an SPS. (The discussion arose at the RSN because it was initially a question of whether GLAAD is an RS, and it developed into an SPS discussion because the WP text in question involved living persons, bringing the BLPSPS rule into play.) In looking at WP:USESPS, WP:SPS, and some of their Talk page discussions, I was reminded that you're the author of the USESPS essay, so I figured that you might be a good person to ask: has there ever been discussion of creating an SPS Noticeboard where people can ask for guidance about whether a source is self-published? Thanks, FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't seen any conversations about that. IMO it is a bit 'niche' for a whole noticeboard.

If you're interested in the subject, then let me say that back in the day, the SPS rules were really intended to control the use of websites like Myspace and Usenet newsgroups. This focus resulted in claims, e.g., that a corporate website like https://www.coca-cola.com couldn't be self-published because the company employed too many lawyers. It may be useful to keep that intention in mind when you think about SPS issues. This tension between "a corporate website is created by and published by its employees, so technically it's self-published" and "but they have lots of lawyers, so they're not going to publish libelous comments!" is one of the reasons why SPS sources are not automatically bad sources, even under BLPSPS. For example, a corporate/organizational website (also press releases) is acceptable under BLPSPS for statements about the organization's staff.

If the dispute you mention hasn't been resolved, then one question that's often helpful for SPS question is: If this were a press release instead of a webpage, would you still want to use it? If not, then it's probably worth looking for another source (and sometimes, looking for another source is the fastest solution anyway). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I wondered about a noticeboard because I've more than once been uncertain about whether a source is a SPS, and I've also seen more experienced editors have very different opinions about whether a source is a SPS. But I trust your opinion that it's too niche to merit its own noticeboard.

I do recognize that SPS sources aren't automatically bad, which is why they're allowed if someone is an expert in the field they're writing about. However, statements like "Never use self-published sources ... as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article" and "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people" make it sound like it's unacceptable to use, for example, a university's website as a source in an article about an NPROF at the university, unless the website's text was written by the NPROF themself. Andy Mabbett recently added a line to BLPSPS saying that it was OK for the situation you describe, and also OK to use the website of an outside organization that gives a notable award to the BLP's subject. FWIW, the text in USESPS that "Almost all websites except for those published by traditional publishers (such as news media organizations) [are self-published sources], including ... Business, charitable, and personal websites" and "If the author works for a company, and the publisher is the employer, and the author's job is to produce the work (e.g., sales materials or a corporate website), then the author and publisher are the same" certainly makes it sound like the website of an organization like GLAAD is SPS, but many people in the RSN discussion say that it clearly isn't one. FactOrOpinion (talk) 01:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The obvious cases are obvious: Chris Celebrity posting on social media is self-published; the daily newspaper is not self-published.

For something like GLAAD, it's not really either of these obvious cases. Part of their business is to publish things (e.g., their media guide at https://glaad.org/reference, now in its 11th edition), and those things appear to have the kind of editorial control that we'd expect from a traditional publisher. Similarly, governments issue reports (e.g., the United States census), and we generally treat those as non-self-published.

However: A traditional publisher can issue a press release (e.g., "buy our new books for the holiday season" or "please stop taxing our industry so heavily"), and that's self-published even for them. GLAAD engages in advocacy work that goes beyond their traditional publishing work. And in the case of a government publication, we impose even stricter rules on courtroom transcripts per WP:BLPPRIMARY, and a speech made by a legislator should probably be considered self-published even if it's been transcribed into official records.

I don't know if you'd ever noticed this – I didn't, until someone pointed it out – but we don't technically have an official definition of a reliable source anywhere. IMO the actual definition is something like "a source editors are willing to accept for a specific use". I think that we sometimes get hung up on the details of various labels and criteria, when we really ought to ask ourselves whether ____ is acceptable and appropriate for a specific sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk page stalking here, not to argue with you on how reliable source is defined. But woulnd't that type of definition subvert neutral point of view? To be uncharitable, that definition sounds a lot like sources that I like, and a lot of NPOV discussions fall back on we're just documenting reliable sources. To me it just seems to boil down to, we're documenting what the sources that we like say, which sounds so very POV. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kyohyi, I've just been cleaning up Cannabis edible, which is an area in which "documenting what the sources that we like say" unfortunately sounds like a pretty accurate description of editors' behaviors. Rest in peace, Tanner Clements, age 4. His mother has received a life sentence of grief, plus 10 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter because she didn't seek medical care soon enough to save his life after he ate a box of THC gummies. I hope that our article, which has been cheerfully telling readers that children have never died from overdosing on edibles, played no part in her decision to delay seeking medical care.

About the definition: I agree that such a definition is open to bias. It's also circular, at least in some contexts (Which sources are reliable? The sources editors accept. Which sources do editors accept? The reliable ones.).

But I'm not sure that it actually changes the level of bias, but it might admit to it a bit more openly. Right now, for example, Death#Problems of definition barely notes that religious views exist but goes into great detail about medical tests. Religion is relegated to a section at the end, and the article overall has twice as many words about dead volcanoes than about death in Judaism. IMO this is because we are biased towards hard sciences and against religion. We don't want to think about whether the Buddhist definition of death is about the departure of an immaterial soul from the heart and proven by signs of decomposition rather than neurological activity or heartbeats, or whether the Orthodox Jewish definition is the departure of the divinely instilled breath from the lungs. We want to talk about stuff you can see and touch, and we choose sources based on our preferences.

I arrived at this definition after discarding others (e.g., it can't be that it's non-self-published, because {{cite twitter}} exists), so it's entirely possible that someone else can come up with a different definition that would be better. If you've got candidates, I'd love to hear them. I'm always interested in this subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I suppose I was looking more for a sanity check on how I was seeing things. If I were to try to write it better, I would probably start with determining among whom the reputation of fact checking and accuracy has to be. Right now, it appears that the reputation is amongst Wikipedia editors, and I'm not sure that should be the case. --Kyohyi (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Kyohyi, in principle, we want the source (e.g., the newspaper, the scientific journal) to have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. In the case of newspapers, this is proven by the existence of corrections; in the case of, say, the The Rush Limbaugh Show, it is disproven by the non-existence of corrections and the widespread complaints about his made-up content and inaccuracy. In the case of a scientific journal, it is proven by the information on their website about peer review, and it is disproven by accusations that it is run by a predatory publisher.

There is an element of editorial judgment in there: Which sources do we investigate the most? How do we handle sources that are borderline or contradictory (e.g., MDPI, whose peer review standards are better now than they used to be, which means they were pretty bad in the past)? Whose complaints do we elevate, and whose do we ignore (e.g., if the complaints are all from 'that' end of the political spectrum, does that matter)? Consequently I agree that the real rule, in practice, is "Wikipedia editors' perception of the reputation", but I don't think that is a solvable problem.

Adding another layer of complexity, consider the case of the public figure who is accused of a crime. He appears on social media to say "I am not a crook". We aren't really looking for fact checking and accuracy in that source. Our interest is more akin to a right of reply because it is more neutral to briefly acknowledge his denial than to omit it. There, we are not looking for a "GREL" source; we are looking for a source that is reliable for the specific claim in question (namely, that he denied any guilt). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to respond; I'm always appreciative of experienced editors who make time to help me and others. You reminded me that an organization may publish a mix of SP and non-SP material (something I knew but wasn't holding at the front of my mind) and that I need to be more careful about that in discussions. The GLAAD page in question is part of their Accountability Project (GAP), which has individual pages for ~250 public figures/groups, where each GAP page consists of evidence (e.g., quotes) illustrating the figure's/group's "anti-LGBTQ rhetoric and discriminatory actions," along with brief statements about why the rhetoric/actions are problematic, and where the pages get updated with new bits of information over time. Does every addition to a page get independent editorial review? I don't know. Hopefully we'll reach consensus at the discussion. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

For the mix of self- and non-self-published material, I like to use the example of The New York Times (or any reputable newspaper). The news content is non-self-published. The advertising rate sheet is self-published. It is similar to WP:ALLPRIMARY: every website has some self-published content (even if it's just the terms of use/privacy policy), but generally reliable sources also have some non-self-published content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Request for your keen eye

I realize, as I made my way to the end of your talk page, that you are indeed occupied, preoccupied and busy, so I apologize in advance for requesting that you look once again at the Landmark Worldwide talk page. I am an admitted participant in Landmark's programs, and as such have refrained from any editing and merely spoken up on the talk page. But your looking clarified the conversation with myself and Grafell, and if you are able I think your judgement and comments would be valuable. Thanks in advance. Ndeavour (talk) 16:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ndeavour, thank you for your note. I've pinged a few folks. I don't know their views on Landmark Worldwide at all, and I don't remember most of their views on cults in general, but they are already deep in discussions about a different subject's possible cult status, so they'll at least already know what a cult is and how Wikipedia's usual rules apply. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you mind if I email you?

I am hoping you can help me with an application of WP:NOR re; List of common misconceptions. Best, Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If you feel like it shouldn't be discussed in public, then Special:EmailUser/WhatamIdoing is available. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Watch what you write

At WT:RFC you hinted that an identifiable editor is antisemitic. I know you didn't write exactly that, but your phrasing "I frankly couldn't fault other editors if they cynically wondered whether the real desire is to know whether the person who started that RFC is Jewish." is a stock-standard way to make an assertion with plausible deniability. You are lucky that the issue involves ARBPIA, where I do not act as an administrator, as otherwise I would have blocked you. Casual charges of antisemitism are increasing in this place and the practice has to be stamped out. Take someone to a drama board if you have actual evidence against them. Zero^talk 01:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Zero0000, I think we have very different ideas about what I wrote. I think that, when a contentious subject is involved, requesting to re-write the RFC rules so that the person's identity is front and center will result in bystanders wondering whether the stated goal is the real one.

I think this partly because such a request is a significant departure from our usual rule to Wikipedia:Comment on the content, not the contributor. I think this is also partly because editors who hang out on policy pages have learned that demands for rule changes are often prompted by a single, specific situation, and we have consequently learned to cast a jaundiced eye over any complainant's contribs in response.

The resulting speculation will naturally vary with the question. For example, the 2018 identity demand was about an unsigned RFC proposing more restrictions on admins. I'm sure you will not be surprised to learn that the unsigned OP was a non-admin with a sizable block log. When the RFC is about a divisive subject, some editors are going to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the demand is being made for partisan purposes.

NB I'm not saying any people "should" do this; I'm saying some people "will". People do not generally feel constrained to "actual evidence" when they react to such situations. They often react intuitively or even illogically, and their reaction is often rooted in their own personal experiences.

On this point, I think you might be interested in reading the "No subtle -isms" explanation at https://www.recurse.com/social-rules. Not everyone will agree on what counts as a subtly exclusionary action, and, even if everyone did agree, not everyone will feel it the same way. You and I could agree that centering the OP's identity doesn't bother us, but that doesn't invalidate how other editors (especially the targeted OP) feel about it.

Also, the context for my sentence is IMO important: Every request to center an editor's identity in RFCs (that I remember) has been on a divisive topic. People do not demand rule changes for unsigned RFCs about fluffy bunnies. They only demand this rule change when a high-tension dispute gets an unsigned RFC.

Any unsigned RFC suggesting that the article be either "more pro-____" or "more anti-_____" (anything with serious real-world divisions) risks some speculation (voiced or not) about why the OP didn't sign it, and any complaint about it being unsigned risks some speculation (voiced or not) about why the complainant finds the OP's identity so important to the discussion that he insists we change the rules to accommodate his desire.

In theory, this cuts both ways: If the RFC question suggests minimizing Israel's perceived guilt, then some people will wonder whether the identity demand is motivated by anti-Israel bias; if the RFC question suggests maximizing Israel's perceived guilt, then some people will wonder whether the identity demand is motivated by anti-Palestinian bias. In practice, however, there have been about 50 unsigned RFCs this year, and two demands that the RFC rules be changed to require a username. Both of those demands appear to have been prompted by an RFC that I personally would classify as being pro-Israel in nature. We'd have to collect subject matter data for all 50 unsigned RFCs to determine whether that is statistically significant vs just an odd coincidence, but with just a quick glance down the list, I notice that the numbers look something like this:

• 100% (2 out of 2) of the identity demands were about unsigned "pro-Israel" RFC proposals.
• 33% (2 out of 6) of the unsigned RFCs related to conflict in the Middle East prompted these complaints.
• 0% (44 out of 44) of the unsigned RFCs unrelated to conflict in the Middle East received any such complaints.

This pattern could well be a coincidence, and 2 is a pretty small n. I also suspect that unsigned RFCs are not randomly distributed. However, if you remember that "subtle isms" thing I mentioned above: Even if we could prove statistically that it is merely a coincidence that 100% of the demands for identity were "pro-Israel" unsigned RFCs and that 0% of the (many more) non-Israel-related unsigned RFCs received any such complaints, it might not land that way to any editor who feels targeted and excluded by these complaints.

I realize that this may feel awkward for you, because you started the first of the two complaints this year (which arguably makes you WP:INVOLVED, I suppose). As it happens, I didn't attribute any disreputable motivation to your request; my perception at the time, rightly or wrongly, was that you were more surprised by the old rule than anything else. But when I imagine this from the POV of an editor who identifies in any way with Judaism or Israel, I'm not sure whether I'd have read it that way, and the fact that since the present war in Gaza started, only "pro-Israel" unsigned RFCs have produced these complaints – well, those numbers wouldn't tell me a reassuring story about our community. Perhaps casual charges of antisemitism aren't the only thing that needs to be stamped out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Of course we can't stop people speculating about each others' motivations, but speculating out loud does nothing except increase the toxicity for everyone. In my opinion you crossed the line, especially because you were referring to a particular editor. You really must suppress that impulse in the future.

When one of the main protagonists in a dispute doesn't sign an RfC, their opponents suspect that they are hiding their involvement so that people who come along without knowing the background will !vote without understanding what the consequences will be. This especially happens when the originator is involved in an ongoing dispute and knows how to write RfC questions that are superficially neutral but in fact designed to get what they want. This is the same thing that pollsters take pride in: very subtle variations in the question can produce large changes in the response. RfC questions in contentious topics very often don't contain all that is necessary to know in order to make a reasoned decision. I'm not saying that's a fair description of the two cases you mention — I haven't even looked at the recent one and I don't edit that article.

I might be wrong, but you seem to have the impression that disputes in ARBPIA are about Jews versus others. That is far from true and there are countless exceptions in both directions. Zero^talk 10:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if we should continue this conversation in e-mail. You've just posted a comment that could be (mis)understood as saying that "a particular editor" (who appears to watch this page, by the way) is being intentionally and skillfully deceptive ("superficially neutral but in fact designed to get what they want"), and I understand that that's an antisemitic trope. In another context, we'd all read this as run-of-the-mill accusations of very ordinary Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing, but this isn't another context. Special:EmailUser/WhatamIdoing is open to you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you

I really appreciate what you did at the human penis article. If you're up for a somewhat similar project where there's some dubious broad statements about women in wikvoice, there's Parental investment#Application of Trivers' theory in real life. That content has bugged me for ages. I even started a noticeboard thread about it: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 113#Parental investment. A part of me really wants to be bold and fix things but I don't know how and it really isn't my area of expertise. But my instinct looking at that content is not great. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Clovermoss, I'd like to encourage you to have a go at it. If it's sufficiently bad, then anything will be an improvement, so you can hardly screw up. For example, I just blanked a long paragraph except for one sentence, because only the one sentence had anything to do with the subject of the article, and the rest was an effort to connect that one sentence to something else, i.e., SYNTH.

As a general rule, editing for concision will help, and in particular, removing intensifiers ("very influential") is good encyclopedic writing style. I'd also suggest, as an easy place to start, blanking the worst sources from the strings of Wikipedia:Citation overkill in the Parental investment#Paternal investment section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm just really hesitant to touch it when I don't really have that background to know for sure what's normal and what's bunk. I had a concerned message on my talk page for even starting a noticeboard thread about this. [2] Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Since I disagree with the claim that evolutionary psychology is a "hard science", that editor and I are perhaps unlikely to come to any sort of agreement. You might partner up with the folks that responded to the NPOVN question (pinging Elmmapleoakpine, Bluethricecreamman, and Hydrangeans), and see if the four of you could accomplish something together.

m:Eventualism is a good approach here. Even if you only improve one small part, it's still an improvement.

If you feel like you need more eyes, then I'd suggest Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard next time. That crowd is usually good at differentiating between scientific consensus and the ...other stuff. @Bon courage, can you think of anyone offhand who'd be worth asking for help with Parental investment? It's not really as awful a subject as, say, Parental alienation, but it's looks like it might have the same problem with distinguishing between what researchers say and how social media twists that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

i’ve been told through the academic grapevine much of the literature by anthropologists (especially older anthropologists) is tremendously racist, sexist, orientalist etc… assuming evolutionary psychology is a sort of rebrand for the sort of thinking Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, I tried. [3] There's so much going on with this article that I'm not sure I actually made much of a difference. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That looks like a great start. I did a little copyediting on the ==History== section, and decided that we didn't need to be using a primary source to pull this all the way back to Darwin. Can someone else have a go at Parental investment? Any little edit will help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your enthusiasm. I hope others will chip in too. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:46, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, WhatamIdoing. Sorry that I didn't do much more than second you in the NPOV thread, Clovermoss. I agree with your impression; my instinct looking at that content is not great. But like you, I've hesitated to intervene much directly. I'm more familiar with histories of human sexuality than of human family. It's adjacent enough to make me skeptical of a claim that suggests any kind of biological hardwiring, but without knowing specific sources that overturn other work, I do my best to defer to the sources. I'd be very surprised if there aren't sources that characterize parental interest in children as a more social phenomenon, but I don't know them off the cuff.

I'll see what I can do to chip in when I can. I know eventualism can feel a little unsatisfying, on the grounds that surely the article if inaccurate is disinforming people in the present, but there's too much Wikipedia for anyone to fix everything anytime. Making a little difference is still a difference. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

assuming evolutionary psychology is a sort of rebrand for the sort of thinking: It's not a rebrand per se—but in certain hands, it's not not a rebrand (not in all hands, mind). We do experience the world through the evolutionarily developed physical brain, so it's not unreasonable for there to be some evolutionary influences on psychology. The critical thing is to achieve balance in our on-wiki presentation with the also academically and thoroughly documented reality of the social construction of behaviors, norms, habits, etc. (And this is hardly just a human thing; animals have culture and social construction to, like whales with different dialects or orcas with different hunting styles, behaviors social contexts and not solely evolutionary ones). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that an over-focus on humans may be one of the problems for this article. This probably ought to start at a point like "most fish don't care for their young, but most birds do". Instead, I suspect that both readers and editors are arriving with a mental context like "Is it better to have one child who graduates university with no debt or two children who don't?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

+1. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. The topic is one that is about parenting generally across animals but very little of the article is explicitly about how this manifests (or doesn't) in species other than humans. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

AfC

If you are not yet bored of me (I am) I would like to ask how I should interpret [4] in the context of [5]. I kinda assumed you would be on board because you mentioned the amount of duplicated work. Someone started an RfC based on my idea which was a bit surprising to me; if I had been involved I would've done it differently. Polygnotus (talk) 09:38, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Since the first is AFC and the second is NPP, they're not really related, though you are right that there are some similarities.

I don't think that a bot is the right way to go about AFC re-submissions, because a zero-change re-submission is appropriate when the first decline was bad, and those are really easy to game (add or remove double spaces after every sentence; put single line breaks between words; rearrange the parameters in the citation templates...).

But when AFC is seeing repeated zero-change re-submissions or inappropriate zero-change re-submissions, then I think AFD is the right model. I suppose some might think of AFD followed by deletion as somehow "punishing" the author and/or submitter if the article gets deleted, but the author can get a WP:REFUND to their userspace upon request, and the submitter will, over time, discover what the actual standards are and stop risking that on articles they actually want to see in the mainspace. AFC's backlog will start decreasing immediately. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

quarry request

Hey, WaId! I was just making a request myself and saw this one from you. Have you written that up yet? I'd be quite interested in reading it. Valereee (talk) 15:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

There isn't much to say, but here it is:

Among our 1,000 very highest volume editors ever, a quarter have since stopped editing (quit, blocked, banned, died, lost password – any reason). Those now-inactive accounts tended to edit for about 12 years before they stopped editing. Having spotchecked less than 10, these editors probably had an average vaguely around 600–1200 edits per month while they were active.

The longer I thought about this, the less convinced I am that this is a representative group. But I'm still concerned that we may not have enough high-volume folks coming into the pipeline to replace them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	Thank you for shepherding WP:NSPECIES from draft to guideline. It's a bit surprising that this was a de facto guideline for many years without achieving official status. It needed a push, and you gave that push. Great job. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.

I think the next step is to wait a couple of days to see whether anyone posts a request for a WP:Close review at WP:AN, and then there are at least two other major discussions in the pipeline (extinct species [dinosaurs!] and nothospecies) before I will feel like this one is basically finished. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I came here to leave the same barnstar – great work getting this necessary work done WAID, what a slog... – Joe (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Personal wedding website

Err, disagree on what basis? The entire "Comparing and contrasting the price of a wedding planner with the price of a website" is a big SYNTH violation, and it's all written with a very 2000s understanding of the internet:

• "Each wedding website is different"
• "Wedding websites offer a way for couples to showcase their personality"
• "wedding website suppliers now operate in many worldwide locations, many creating specific functionality and tools for their own national identities, customs, and faiths"
• "Personal wedding websites have changed how information about weddings is communicated."
• "If plans change, the website can be updated with the new information."

I mean, this is...fluff. This reads like a mix of NOTESSAY and NOTPROMO and most of all, NOTHOWTO content. Why are we keeping this? Alyo (chat·edits) 00:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is all fluff. For example: "Personal wedding websites have changed how information about weddings is communicated." You know what? They actually did change how information about weddings is communicated. In the 1980s, the information was communicated on fancy paper, was fairly minimal, and if you needed to travel, then making and coordinating travel plans was more complicated (and long-distance calls weren't free). Need a hotel? Write or phone the family to ask for a recommendation, or call your favorite chain and hope they have something nearby. Once you got there, everyone had to figure out every little thing.

When I went to an out-of-town wedding last year, all the information was on the website. Need a flight? Here's the airport's name. Need a hotel? Click these links. Need a ride from the wedding venue to the reception? Here's the information about the meeting points. Want the schedule for the whole weekend? It's all right there, and updated as necessary. Want to know how far it is from your hotel to the event? The map is right there. This is a totally different world. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'll pare down my request to just one thing--the "Comparing and contrasting" section reads like synthesis, because there's nothing in the prose that makes it clear that the sources themselves are actually making that comparison. Additionally, the article lists very specific numbers that are now decades out of date. I feel pretty strongly that paragraph starting "According to White Weddings" needs to go entirely, and I'll leave it to you if you want to reframe the rest of the content in that section. I'll just note that even that part is largely out of date, with the websites people use nowadays. E.g., "websites promote expensive wedding products" is no longer as common a monetization practice on the sites people use now.

The first paragraph of the final section isn't really about wedding websites at all, and is also based on a single survey from 13 years ago, fwiw. Alyo (chat·edits) 01:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if an article "reads like" SYNTH; what matters is whether it "is" SYNTH. I'm pretty sure that ~2010, those were pretty common thoughts: Is it better to sort through RSVPs yourself, to hire a wedding planner to figure out who is coming or not, or to set up a website so responses get tallied automatically? Unfortunately, the relevant cited sources are offline (sort of ironic for an article about websites...), so I can't check them specifically, but I would be surprised if this turned out to be SYNTH.

I do agree that the whole article deserves an {{update}} tag. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Haha, if you want me to be exact in my wording, then sure, I'll say it directly: it's currently SYNTH. We have sourced content (sort of) discussing the costs of a website, and then we have sourced content discussing the costs of a wedding planner. What we don't have is sourced content saying "people pick one over the other" or "here is a direct comparison of the two". The framing of these two things in wikivoice is, as written, a synthesis not stated by sources. Maybe in 2010 these were common thoughts, but that shouldn't be relevant to how the article is written now. Every wedding I've been a part of recently has not treated these two things as substitutes. You get a website, unless you're being particularly elope-ish, and you get a wedding planner, if you want the help and don't mind the cost: they're entirely separate. (I realize I'm speaking of my own OR, but that's all we have to go on here!) Alyo (chat·edits) 02:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are the main sources cited in that section:

• Daws, Laura Beth (2009). Happily Ever After.com: The Construction of Identity on Wedding Websites. University of Kentucky.
• Ingraham, Chrys (2008). White Weddings: romancing Heterosexuality in Popular Culture. Taylor & Francis. p. 90. ISBN 9780203931028.
• Camenson, Blythe (2002). Opportunities in Event Planning Careers. McGraw-Hill Professional. p. 160. ISBN 9780071382281.

How many of them do you have access to? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I have access to none of them, but again, what the sources say isn't the issue--it's SYNTH even assuming that the sources correctly back up each sentence in the article, as they are currently written. Alyo (chat·edits) 08:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Um, what the sources say is 100% the issue. If any source says the whole story – if, for example, one of them says "Some people are ditching the professional wedding planner in favor of a personal wedding website because the main service they wanted was tracking RSVPs, and the website is a much cheaper way to do that", then it's not SYNTH. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok sure, but neither of us have access to the sources. So if the article itself does not say anything about the trade off, and neither of us can in good faith add that content (since again, we don't have access to the sources), then I repeat that as it is currently written it is SYNTH. I agree that hypothetically if the sources say that, then it isn't synth. When you have that source, please go ahead and add it. In the meantime, there is no sourced content in the article connecting the costs of a website to the costs of a wedding planner. The title of the section, and the framing of those two issues as connected, is thus SYNTH. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

No. @Alyo, I'm concerned that you have misunderstood SYNTH, and possibly the whole of OR.

If "it" (whatever bit of material is being discussed, e.g., the idea that someone might choose between a human wedding planner and a cheap website to track RSVPs) has ever been published in any reliable source, then "it" is not a NOR violation, full stop. It cannot be SYNTH if the two issues are connected in any reliable source. The biggest problem we could have in such a case is that it might look like SYNTH to an editor who didn't want to go to the trouble of getting copies of the sources. (Try Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request.)

Note the absence of words like "considering only sources that are cited in the article" or "counting only sources known to or accessible by currently active editors" or "sourced content in the article connecting the two, so future editors who aren't reading the sources will be confident that the sources really did say that". NOR requires that there never have been a single reliable source, anywhere in the world, in any language, known to you or otherwise, that contained this material. If even one reliable source says this, even if you don't know what the source is and even if you don't know what the source says, then it's not NOR. Consequently, editors should be very cautious about claiming NOR for material that is cited to sources they haven't read, because it is likely that your unfounded assumption is simply wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy to get more opinions from WP:NORN, but I think your interpretation is moving the goalposts a bit. This section doesn't just say "some people think that websites are a cheap RSVP replacement", it is attempting to be a comparison of the features of a website vs the costs--at a very detailed level--of a wedding planner. If this section was as simple as you're framing it, then sure, maybe not synth. But this is trying to be an in-depth look at how wedding websites allow for better communication, more creativity, and greater flexibility in use--and those abstract benefits are getting compared to the cost of a wedding planner. That is the comparison I'm challenging, and that is the comparison that I'm saying needs to be sourced. Going back to my original statement that this article reads like an essay, the first paragraph of the section is a series of somewhat unrelated facts that are presented/sourced in ways that don't connect at all to this larger comparison of cost. The SYNTH argument is that no source is discussing this set of website features in comparison to a wedding planner, and part of the evidence for that is that we aren't even really comparing this set of features against a wedding planner. Break down the section by sentence:

1. "Websites allow for two-way communication". Source is a scholarly article about identity expressed via wedding websites. RS, but based on topic area/methodology, no reason to assume it digresses into talk about costs of wedding planners.
2. Aside from same source about creation of individual identity, creativity, etc.
3. "Free websites are a cheaper way to communicate, but sometimes wedding websites also promote expensive products." Bit of a non sequitur--unclear how the two clauses relate. Is the reader being told that free websites need to monetize, and this affects their advertising? Does this sentence imply commission-based referral links? or exploitative advertising? Or is the sentence saying that cheaper websites appeal to thriftier people, but websites aren't doing a good job of knowing their audience? Sentence is both internally unclear and does not flow in the overall logic of cost comparison. Additional source here is a Medium blog post by a random with three followers and two posts.
4. "User receives their own domain name." -- most promising source, as it's about cost-cutting, but is otherwise completely unused in the section.
5. One sentence of comparison of who is helped by websites vs planners. This is the closest we get to any sort of direct comparison between the two, and still not about cost.
6. "websites have multiple uses" -- source is a "groundbreaking study of our culture's obsession with weddings" that looks at "films, commercials, magazines, advertising, television sitcoms and even children's toys" to show "pervasive influence of weddings in our culture and the important role they play in maintaining the romance of heterosexuality, the myth of white supremacy and the insatiable appetite of consumer capitalism".

The following four sentences then contained outdated numbers about the cost of wedding planners--but no discussion of how the services of a wedding planner might replace/interact with a wedding website. Because the source for most of the section is a career guidebook published by McGraw-Hill, it isn't going to contain any additional comparison to wedding websites. So yeah, I'm sorry, but I do not see the vast difference here between what I'm saying is SYNTH, and what you are saying is not. This isn't just about tracking RSVPs. We're presenting a miscellaneous series of websites features/abstract benefits, and then some out of context numbers from 2002, and slapping a "comparison" section title on it. We are the only entity doing this comparison--I believe that is synth. Alyo (chat·edits) 01:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's the problem: You say that we are the only entity doing this comparison, but you don't know that.

The evidence you've given is: Nobody has yet handed you exact quotations from the cited sources that prove you wrong.

The ordinary work you have not done is: You haven't even tried to get the cited sources yourself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is relevant to the objections I've listed above, but I absolutely did hunt around for the Daws article. It only has one cite, has almost no results when googled, and isn't located on the databases I have access to through the Wikipedia Library. I didn't think the other sources were worth hunting around for, for the reasons I listed above. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you ask for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request? Have you inquired with your local library about an interlibrary loan? Have you e-mailed the university that has the source and asked them for help?

This might seem overkill, but you're trying to gut an article based on your unfounded guess, years later, that the multiple editors who did read the source have violated a policy, which is also kinda overkill.

Alternatively, have you tried to find other sources? I can tell you that the 1955 edition of Emily Post's Etiquette lists an expense for hiring someone to manage invitations and RSVPs – one of 15 enumerated expenses for the bride's family, with nothing else even remotely like what we would say falls under the job description of "wedding planner" – but of course that's decades too old to provide the necessary comparison against websites. Miss Manners has a 2010 book which directly compares the cost of a evite+website against paper invitations+website but does not mention the services provided by a wedding planner. (There is more in that chapter about wedding websites.) This 2018 book does the same. By the time we're in the current decade, books like this one just assume that of course everyone will have a personal wedding website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to "gut the article". I'm trying to remove a single section that has so many issues I've had trouble even getting you to see my objections. That section was written well over a decade ago. I'm not saying anything about the intentions of the editors who wrote it, but standards on Wikipedia have tightened dramatically since 2011. I see that you were involved in this article at that time, and I'm not trying to attack you at all. I see that you feel strongly about this article. Heck, that's why I've dropped all my other objections apart from a single section that either misleads our readers, or is completely irrelevant (depending on how it's written). The burden is not on me to replace material that contravenes our policies that newer material that doesn't. If you want to update the article, that's awesome, please do! I know, based on the weddings I've been in/attended, that there is modern use of wedding websites that isn't covered here.

Miss Manners has a 2010 book which directly compares the cost of a evite+website against paper invitations+website... That does not surprise me at all, which is why I did not say that sources wouldn't compare paper invites against evites. ...but does not mention the services provided by a wedding planner. This is what I've been saying, and this is the crux of the whole matter. By the time we're in the current decade, books like this one just assume that of course everyone will have a personal wedding website. I know, I said that previously in this discussion. They are no longer substitutes for each other, which is why sources do not compare them against each other. Alyo (chat·edits) 18:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello

Hello. Do you close talk page discussions? If so, can you please close this one? Thanks, Wolverine X-eye ^{(talk to me)} 06:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Wolverine X-eye, you have listed this at Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:List of pholidotans#Merge to Manidae and you need to wait until someone feels like closing it. Given your behavior in those discussions,[*] it's possible that nobody will want to touch it, and that when they do, they might be less willing to close it the way you'd prefer. In other words, you may have shot yourself in the foot by talking about editors and pushing for a closing summary to be delivered as soon as possible. When it works in your favor, we call it the halo effect, but this is all going to work against you. Honestly, I think the most effective thing you could do at this point would be to put a note on your calendar for some time after Christmas, and not say a word to anyone about closing this until then, and resolve now that your only reply, whatever the outcome is, will be to say "Thanks, I appreciate you writing a closing summary for us". And if they disagree with you, add "I plan to fully abide by this, even though I'm disappointed in the result".

[*] For example: "I don't know why you are trying to ruin my hard work, but just know that your plan won't work here." "I envy people who have never met you." "You are wasting my freaking time. I asked you a question and now you are ignoring me? Wow, what a waste of time and energy it has been trying to reason with you. Never ever am I doing this again. If I have to go the extra mile to ensure that you and I never interact again, then that's exactly what I'll do." You might want to strike these per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing own comments. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Weissman on Covid origins

Thanks for being willing to look at Weissman's work.

I think it's a problem that the lab leak article takes such a polemic stance on an open question. I've given up on improving it (I noticed that the regulars ban a few people a year for trying) but I still look at the talk page occasionally and noticed that you were weighing in - I've been impressed in the past by your skill at writing passages that express both sides of an argument.

I suppose there's no point trying to convince you of anything since you commented that the interesting thing about the lab leak theory is the psychopathology aspect! Still, I thought I'd recommend Weissman's work since it is the strongest thing I've read on the subject. Not so much because of his conclusions but because of how he's structured the evidence, and because he's not interested in rumors. - Palpable (talk) 02:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it Psychopathology; I think there is a healthy normal defensive mechanism involved (at least in some cases), even if it leads to unjustifiable statements. Most of us seem to be drawn to ideas, claims, and experiences that fulfill a need we have. There are probably people who wouldn't be functional (e.g., couldn't get out of bed each morning) if they understood that there could be another pandemic at any time. We seem to have gotten a bad new coronavirus about once a decade (SARS in 2002, MERS in 2012, and COVID in 2019), so it seems likely that we'll see another during the next five or so years. I would not be surprised if public health officials in some countries were trying to sort out how one could issue a sensible warning whenever the next one appears without triggering suicides (or riots, or panic buying, or any number of other problems). It seems like knowing things like whether these people are caught in the loneliness epidemic or whether they're feeling like they're losing political power could be helpful.

You said that Weissman "limits the analysis to evidence where the two theories can be compared side to side". I can see why he might do this, but what it means is that you say "On this side, we have data about ABCD, and on that side, we have data about CDEFGHIJKLMNOPQ, so I'm only going to compare C and D, and I'm not going to put any effort into determining whether that self-imposed limitation gives a fair description of either side". That model seems better suited for demonstrating a technique to students than for figuring out a real-world answer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what to say to your first paragraph. I provided the most principled analysis of the evidence that I've seen, and your alternate pop psych explanation seems a little condescending.

In your ABCD example, that is absolutely a limitation. There is no valid way to assess A if you don't have it on both sides, the math just doesn't work. My impression is that the biggest argument for zoonotic spillover is historical precedent, exactly what you allude to with SaRS and MERS, and based on that I think he starts with a prior strongly favoring zoonosis at around 100:1. Is there specific evidence in favor of zoonotic spillover that you think he is unfairly omitting?

In any case, the argument I'm making is just for agnosticism and for dialing down the level of contempt. You can discount Weissman's numbers by 100x and the possibility would still deserve to be taken seriously. - Palpable (talk) 04:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

That Weissmann stuff is just the usual Bayseian trick of feeding biased priors into a magic maths box and thinking it achieves something. All it does is re-confirm those biased priors but with a veneer of science. Nobody is taking it seriously. If you want to see whay happens when independent domain experts are brought in to tamp down on the nonsense being fed into these mechanisms, check out the rootclaim story.[6] Bon courage (talk) 04:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

His starting priors favor zoonosis by 70:1, estimated from counting previous pandemics and previous lab accidents.

The rootclaim debate is addressed in Appendix 1. I think the main disagreement is over the evidence value of the 2022 market origin papers. Appendix 2 is a critique of those papers.

- Palpable (talk) 05:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

So he disagrees with people who disagree with him. That doesn't make him wrong or right.

The thing about "There is no valid way to assess A if you don't have it on both sides" is that it's partly right. It is actually an indication that Weissmann's chosen method might be inadequate. Because you do have another option: Figure out the likelihood of "this", all by itself, and figure out the likelihood of "that", all by itself, and then compare the whole likelihoods. There are challenges with this approach (e.g., the person might be biased; there might be significantly more precise data for one of the two), but it's another approach.

I don't find the Rootclaim story to be convincing, either. They say that the (never-funded, possibly never-happened) lab work was to be done in a BSL-2 facility without even face masks, but they do not mention that potentially infectious materials are handled in a Biosafety cabinet, which is more protective than a face mask.

Some of the claims don't pass the straight face test. For example, they say that there should be a >50% chance of a researcher getting infected from the planned work within a few months. Really? There are labs all over the world that are working with coronaviruses. Some of those viruses (e.g., MERS) were more deadly. Some of those labs have less protection (e.g., hospitals processing samples from patients with unknown infective agents).

Where are the hundreds or thousands of sick researchers? Where are the human resource departments talking about the unusual sick leave patterns among researchers? Where are the unions demanding hazard pay? Could it be that... this isn't actually happening? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Also if you're going to feed rubbish into a mechanism (like that SCV2 was somehow 'specially adapted' to infect humans) then of course you're magically going to find that the mechanism determines that it's a lab leak. GIGO innit. The whole rootclaim story makes for interesting reading about the clash between science and belief.[7] Bon courage (talk) 06:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

This GIGO is one of the things that bugs me. The claim starts from the belief that SARS-CoV-2 is special and did not happen by random chance. Compare:

• There are 15,000 officially recognized viruses in the world, and an unknown number of unknown viruses, each of which has its own variations and mutations. There are thousands of labs doing research on viruses. What are the odds that a random virus would be found near a random lab that randomly happened to have applied for (and failed to win) a research grant closely related to that random virus?
• There might be tens of thousands of viruses in the world, but this lab does significant work on only tens of them, and those viruses are chosen because they are scientifically proven to be a threat to the immediate area. Our prior analysis of bat guano has found coronaviruses with a wide variety of mutations in furin cleavage sites in our area, and since a functional furin enzyme is necessary for infectiveness, we think studying this variation would be scientifically interesting, and let us remind you that this research is important because a highly functional one furin enzyme – say, a sequence like _____ or _____ – could turbocharge the virus. Oh, #$@&!: yet another coronavirus with a mutated furin cleavage site has turned up in this area. Given that we already know that there are x of these variations found in bat poop in this area, what are the odds that there would be at least x+1 and that at least one of them would be a doozy?

I don't think the "pretend everything is 100% random" is the right comparison point. It's a bit like going into a casino and then being shocked that there's gambling going on. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

FYI Wuhan was deemed so low a risk for coronavirus spillover that WIV actually used it as a negative control in a previous sampling study.

I don't know where you got "prior analysis of bat guano has found coronaviruses with a wide variety of mutations in furin cleavage sites in our area" from either. The related viruses are not found near Wuhan, and people are suspicious because out of a thousand or so known sarbecoviruses only one has a furin cleavage site. Another improbable coincidence with the research proposal. It doesn't sound like you've looked into this at all!

I think it's best that I bid you adieu. Have a good week. - Palpable (talk) 06:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe that if you look at my comment, you'll see that I was talking about the whole of the Coronavirus subfamily, and not exclusively about the lone species of SARS-related coronavirus, as in "Furin cleavage sites naturally occur in coronaviruses". But my example is made up, to illustrate the point that assuming random chance is not appropriate when you know that the situation is very far from random. The one is saying "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine", and the other is saying "You should have predicted this possibility when you set up one of the few gin joints along one of the few routes people use to flee from her last known location." WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Where is the ">50% chance of a researcher getting infected from the planned work within a few months" from? What I see is "We can make a crude estimate that if DEFUSE-like work was started at WIV the P­_0if(2019, LL) = ~ 1/100" - Palpable (talk) 06:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

"...the probability that a researcher working on a SARS2-like virus for weeks or months under BSL-2 would get infected. There is good reason to claim this could be an over 50% probability..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still not sure where you got that but you'll be happy to hear that Weissman puts a much lower number on it. - Palpable (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Open https://blog.rootclaim.com/rootclaims-covid-19-origins-debate-results/ and use ⌘F in your browser to find the text that I quoted for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:41, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

And why would you be interested in the opinion of a non-expert? Unless it confirms your priors too ... Bon courage (talk) 05:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

When people agree with us, we think they are more credible. We all do this. It's a real problem for Wikipedia, because editors who are trying to evaluate sources fairly at, say, WP:RSN or WP:FTN, are subject to that same human bias, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Palpable, the first paragraph has nothing to do with Weissmann. It barely has anything to do with the COVID pandemic, except that this common manifestation of human behavior that attached itself to several things about the pandemic. People need to make sense of their experiences. Sometimes they disagree over what makes sense. These disagreements are predictable, e.g.:

• Some people will see a megadrought and say "Our agricultural practices have badly disrupted the ecosystem"
• Some people will look the same events and say "The gods are mad at us. We must appease them".
• Some people will say "It's those powerful other people's fault, and if we get rid of them, everything will be better".

For example: The Dust Bowl is blamed on poor water management techniques. The Mayas sacrificed their children and animals to appease the gods during the society-destabilizing droughts that led to their collapse. Water conflict has been a reliable source of wars throughout history, and in cultures around the world, drought, with its attendant famine, was one of several socially acceptable reasons to kill the king.

And what did we see with COVID, especially with the lockdowns?

• The eco-warrior says "Climate change and our endless expansion into the wildland–urban interface disrupts the ecosystem and makes zoonotic events inevitable".
• The televangelist says "This is a divine warning. We need to repent of our sins and turn our nation back to God".
• The politician says "Let's blame the other party! Let's blame another country! Let's hurt the other party! Let's hurt the other country! If I were in power, everything would be better!"

These responses to a pandemic are inevitable. Another pandemic is inevitable. Why would we not prepare for the inevitable? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:32, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I think everybody agrees that we should prepare for future pandemics. The question of whether the last pandemic might have been research related has strong implications for how we should do that.

(Though the most probable next pandemic is zoonotic H5N1 as you are likely aware) - Palpable (talk) 05:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that there is value in addressing lab leak concerns, but not because of anything to do with COVID. Instead, I think people ought to be taught that these things exist and that they're a net benefit, but that like nuclear power plants, there are some downsides.

I think the reason to study people drawn to the lab leak story is to understand how we can better help people next time. We should be sit down at the next disaster simulation (or the next real event) and say things like: If you want nurses and firefighters, then parents need childcare, so we can't order the day cares closed, and we probably shouldn't order the schools closed for younger kids. (Also, it'd have been nice if we had recruited some younger and healthier people into teaching.) If you want people to stay home, we need more delivery services, and that means people working in warehouses. If you want people to respond positively to social distancing, then we need messages that position this as a way they can help protect their community and not an imposition on their right to breathe germs on every person they encounter. And so forth. Understanding each 'unusual' or 'interesting' response to the previous pandemic will help us with the next one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Request correction for talk page post

In this edit you referred to the Internet Engineering Task Force but linked it to International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. (Disclaimer: I volunteer with the American Red Cross as, among other things, a disaster duty officer.) Jc3s5h (talk) 20:01, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I've fixed it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

November 2024 (Casting Aspersions)

I consider one of your recent edits[8] to amount to WP:ASPERSIONS and a violation of WP:AGF. Thank you, Roggenwolf (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Have you ever read WP:ASPERSIONS? It says "On Wikipedia, casting aspersions is a situation where an editor accuses another editor or a group of editors of misbehavior without evidence". I wonder why you would consider a link to be "without evidence".

I can understand that you might not appreciate editors having an easy way to discover your focus on eugenics and similar subjects. It is not unreasonable or uncommon to wonder whether an editor who says that "advocacy groups have been used to unduly problematize various individuals" has encountered that problem in the articles they most commonly work on. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

^{( Buttinsky)} alongside "bad faith", "aspersions" is one of the most misused/misunderstood terms bandied around on Wikipedia. Bon courage (talk) 02:47, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you think so? Worse than WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:CONLEVEL, WP:STATUSQUO? I think we have a lot of WP:UPPERCASE problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:02, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a long list of problems like that. Bon courage (talk) 09:39, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I did not think of "eugenics" when I wrote my original comment at all. The user warning I issued is perfectly reasonable. Regards, Roggenwolf (talk) 09:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with the characterisation as reasonable here. The diff linked is basically the opposite of an aspersion: evidence without accusation. Finding myself most in agreement with its first reply. Folly Mox (talk) 14:05, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Invitation to provide feedback

Inspired by Worm That Turned's re-RfA where he noted administrators don't get a lot of feedback or suggestions for improvement, I have decided to solicit feedback. I'm reaching out to you as you are currently one of the users I've selected as part of my recall process. I hope you will consider taking a few moments to fill out my feedback form. Clicking on the link will load the questions and create a new section on my user talk. Thanks for your consideration. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Sexism and racism of the user of this talk page as suggested by Fram

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Close this unconstructive discussion. I don’t see any collaborative spirit but I do see many untrue/ABF claims. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

---

Please keep your sexist and racist comments out of Wikipedia. I hoped that your terrible [9] "much of the discussion seemed to be divided between childless white men living in wealthy democracies, and, well, the entire rest of the world." was a one-off slip, but apparently you also felt the need to state that apparently young mothers are child rape victims, but young fathers aren't, and therefor one list should be deleted and the other kept, to the understandable astonishment of e.g. User:JoelleJay. Fram (talk) 08:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Accurately describing the demographics in a dispute is not sexist or racist.

I think that young fathers can be victims of child rape, but I'm hard pressed to see how most of the ones in this particular list – which is mostly a long line of royal fathers (which could be command rape of the mother) and young teens with a unintended pregnancies in same-age girlfriends – actually were child rape, unless your personal definition of "child rape" includes "14-year-old boy voluntarily has sex with his 15-year-old girlfriend". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Making wild, insulting guesses about the people opposing your position is in this case clearly and apparently deliberately sexist and racist. The fact that you just assume that the royal fathers would willingly have sex with someone they have not chosen and may very well not be interested in, while the brides are by just the same assumption unwilling, as if consent is something for girls only, is no surprise. For the vast majority of these cases, we don't know the circumstances at all, for either party. For all we know some of these princes would in the current world be LGBTQ+ but were forced by family, tradition, even violence, to obey and to produce an heir with someone chosen by their parents. Forced child marriages aren't only bad for girls, you know. Fram (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

"Interested in" is not relevant to the definition of rape. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

??? Forced to have sex with someone without their consent is not part of the definition of rape? Fram (talk) 21:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

No, don't be silly. Being "interested in" is a matter of sexual attraction. "Agreeing to" is a matter of sexual consent. It is possible to "agree to" have sex with someone without being "interested in" having sex with that person. I assume, for example, that sex workers do that every day of their working lives. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

A 12- or 14-year old agreeing with their parents to have sex with someone they are not interested in is not rape? Underage persons selling their body because they agree with their parents that they need to provide some money for the household is not the parents forcing them to be raped? If a 13 years old is not interested in having sex with someone, but is coerced into doing it anyway by their parents (or other persons of authority), then how would you describe it? Fram (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Its not possible for a child to consent to sex in that context, you've argued yourself into a corner. Either you're arguing that children in such a situation can consent in which case you are a monster or your argument is moot. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it isn't sexist or racist, but it surely isn't handing the situation with tact and civility. Please take some criticism here even if you reject (as if your right) the labels, we've all said things which weren't taken the way we intended them to. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure which part you're talking about. Are you talking about the part in which I said that self-identified men tended to have different opinions in a discussion 13 years ago than self-identified women?

Or are you talking about the part in which I say that a 12-year-old prince impregnating a concubine, or two modern-era fourteen year olds discovering the results of Doin' What Comes Natur'lly without effective contraception, is different from a five-year-old impoverished girl getting impregnated by her stepfather? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to scold either you or Fram (lord knows that would get us nowhere). I'm saying that this makes us all uncomfortable in the best of cases, lets try to be understanding with each other and dial it back to a low boil. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm still trying to figure out which "this" you're talking about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

"a 12-year-old prince impregnating a concubine, or two modern-era fourteen year olds discovering the results of Doin' What Comes Natur'lly without effective contraception, is different from a five-year-old impoverished girl getting impregnated by her stepfather?" Rape isn't less of a problem if you are rich or priviliged than if you are poor. You are taking the worst fact of one list, and the most benign interpretation of the other list, as they are both undeniable truths and as if both are representative for the whole list. Fram (talk) 21:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you believe that two 14 year olds are always unable to consent to having sex with each other? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:10, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Read what I wrote instead of posting some strawman argument. Fram (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I did read what you wrote. I thought about reasons why you might think that child rape was a significant, non-hypothetical concern for the typical case on that page. One reason why we could differ is if you thought that people below a certain age were always unable to consent. So I have asked.

So far, your response leads me to believe that your concerns are largely hypothetical. I can grant that it's possible that Yazdegerd III, 5th-century King of Kings in what's now Iran, having ascended to the throne at the age of 8, gotten married, and then fathered Peroz III at the age of 12, might hypothetically have been the victim of child sexual abuse by his wife. But I have no reason to believe that he actually was, which leads me to be unconcerned about his inclusion in this list being a record of sexual victimization.

And to be clear about the contents of this list: It is currently 22 names, of which 18 are royalty, 3 were unintended pregnancies by teenage boys with their teenage girlfriends, and the fourth involves a conviction for statutory rape. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you really unable to grasp that two children having sex doesn't necessarily mean that one abuses the other, but that it still can mean that others exploit or force both or one of them? While you correctly have a problem with people being directly abused by relatives, you don't see the issue with forced arranged marriages and the forced need to consummate it and produce a heir, no matter the age of the children involved? Fram (talk) 17:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm willing to believe that the whole system of royalty is inherently abusive, but I don't think that we have a single reliable source indicating that any of these were forced marriages or had a forced consummation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

These child marriage are by definition forced marriages, unless you believe that e.g. an 8-year old can give their consent. Fram (talk) 17:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

AFAICT the date of that marriage is not recorded, and it may well have been at age 12. Consent is a complicated thing to talk about. We have our modern moral standards (which IMO are a vast improvement over previous standards), but it is difficult for me to say that a 12-year-old king can consent to pass legal judgements, to issue fines, to impose beatings, imprisonments, and executions on those he judged, to order men in the court to get married or divorced, even to adopt or to kill their children – but, somehow, though he can literally start a war whenever he chooses, he cannot consent to getting married himself. This is not an ordinary child; this is a king with no legal restrictions on his power. According to the culture at the time, he did have the power to consent.

BTW, where I live, there is no minimum age for marriage, though below the age of 18, any prospective spouse who is underage has to get both parental permission and a court order.[10] (They also can't get divorced until they're 18.[11]) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Problem is, in which I say that a 12-year-old prince impregnating a concubine, or two modern-era fourteen year olds discovering the results of Doin' What Comes Natur'lly without effective contraception, is different from a five-year-old impoverished girl getting impregnated by her stepfather is not actually remotely near what you said in the relevant deletion discussion. Neither is, for that matter, I'm hard pressed to see how most of the ones in this particular list [...] actually were child rape.

What you said was 1. the list currently at AfD has a set of obvious selection criteria (being, in your words, about 14 or younger, blue links only) and 2. that people feel the other article was a list of child rape victims but that such is not a relevant concern for (emphasis mine): anyone that is (or should be) in this list. The logical reading of those two statements combined is 3. being the victim of child rape could not be a relevant concern to anyone fitting the selection criteria.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but it is what the words you said meant, and as someone close to a male csa survivor? That sentiment is common and harmful. Please strike it. If it was not what you meant to say, that should surely be no hardship. AddWittyNameHere 20:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I don't think that this list's selection criteria should include known victims of child rape. The list as presently written contains one victim of statutory rape, and I think that entry should be removed. (I also think his name should be removed from the text of the linked article.) There is no evidence – or even any suggestion in the sources – that any of the others were victims of child abuse. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Then in that case, again, it should surely be no hardship to strike the comment that reads to several different people as you saying young fathers can't be rape victims, and adding a new comment underneath clarifying what you actually DID mean? AddWittyNameHere 21:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC) ETA: to be clear, what I mean is add the comment clarifying it to the AfD, not here. So people who see the initial statement also see the clarification, rather than solely those who then go on to check this discussion on your user talk. AddWittyNameHere 21:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I have added a detailed clarification at your request. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back, Perhaps it isn't sexist or racist, but it surely isn't handing the situation with tact ... we've all said things which weren't taken the way we intended them to

HEB, I find myself most in agreement with what you said. Sometimes it maybe just some misunderstanding, and can be easily resolved if we AGF, unless, unless, people (not you of course) have some other thoughts at the *very* beginning and has determined to escalate. I want to AGF but ... --Dustfreeworld (talk) 13:14, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Bullshit.

To support your claim of notability, you linked to articles on a 13-year-old boy who became a father with his 17-year-old girlfriend, who had been dating him since he was 11, in a situation described as "technically indecent assault" even in the 90s; a WP:HUFFPO article on an 11-year-old boy who had a child with a 36-year-old; a 12-year-old boy who fathered a child with a 17-year-old; and a clearly unreliable to anyone who can read listicle you described as a "magazine" featuring a 9-year-old father and a boy who became a father with a 15-year-old "days after his 12th birthday". Not to mention your link to a deprecated source for a BLP whose fatherhood at 13 we have no details on and very well could have been from CSA. If you didn't think any of those cases would qualify for the list had they been notable, you wouldn't have linked to them as examples of list-qualifying coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 13:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

"I said that self-identified men tended to have different opinions in a discussion 13 years ago than self-identified women?" That's not at all what you said. If you can't see the difference between this statement and what you actually said, then I understand why you don't see it as problematic. Fram (talk) 21:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is remarkably close to what I said. I said that the discussion had a demographic divide in which people who meet all four of these characteristics:

1. Childless
2. White
3. Men
4. Living in wealthy democracies (I can be more specific: from Northern Europe [particularly countries touching the North Sea, though not so much from France] and from the US)

generally held a different view from everyone who did not meet those three characteristics, specifically including people who are known (to me, at least) to have any one of the characteristics:

1. White fathers with children still at home
2. Mothers of any age
3. Non-white people from North America
4. Anyone living in the Middle East
5. Anyone from anywhere on the continent of Africa
6. Anyone from anywhere on the continent of Asia
7. Anyone from any Latin American country

Note that this is a broad, high-level summary. That means that it is true in the sense that "Old people voted for Trump" or "Conservatives vote for the Tories" is true. You may find a counter-example, just like you may find an older person who voted against Trump or a conservative who votes against the Tories, but finding a counter-example does not disprove the overall sentiment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• Came here from VP. I’m going to say that your remark there is little more than negative stereotyping of Wikipedia as “Bro-kipedia” (i.e, not just mostly edited by white men in developed countries but run exclusively by inconsiderate, prejudiced, sex-obsessed white men in developed countries) with some “think of the children” thrown on top rather arbitrarily. This makes no sense when two of the people calling you out are not even male. Your second remark, whatever you’re trying to say there, certainly looks like it’s playing on problematic tropes about male sexual abuse victims. Either way these comments are unhelpful and needlessly offensive to a lot of people. Dronebogus (talk) 04:27, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, @Dronebogus. Given the facts as they are, namely:

  • There were two groups of editors, "for" and "against".
  • One of the two groups was far more likely to publicly self-identify as being men from countries such as Germany or the Netherlands.
  • The other group is far more likely to publicly self-identify as having one or more of the following characteristics: being Middle Eastern, South Asian, having children, or being women.

  How would you describe the demographic difference between these two groups in a way that you personally do not feel is prejudiced?

  Or is the prejudiced part simply the fact that I noticed that demographics tended to predict the viewpoint, because Nice™ people don't notice that people from different parts of the world and different life experiences have different perspectives? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  The whole argument is rubbish because you’re just stereotyping with minimal evidence. Dronebogus (talk) 04:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  How would you know how much evidence I have?

  Your current account is 4.7 years old. Were you perhaps involved in the 2011 discussion under a different username? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Considering that you have provided no evidence at all for your claims (all we know is which Wikipedia languages voted for or against somethings, that's all you produced) and that you have to resort to accusing an experienced editor of eing some nebulous sockpuppet for daring to question you instead of, you know, producing your evidence, I would answer your first question with "none". Fram (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  You would answer my question "How would you know how much evidence I have?" with "None"? Does that mean "Of course Fram does not know how much evidence I have"? I would agree with that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:01, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Since you are so extremely reluctant to actually share your evidence, the more logical conclusion is that you don't the necessary evidence to support your statements. Feel free to prove me wrong by, you know, actually producing the evidence. Fram (talk) 17:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Shall I start with telling everyone which country you live in? Or would you consider that an intolerable violation of the WP:OUTING policy, even though you ask me to do that for others? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  If you don't have on-wiki evidence, then don't post such claims. I have never asked you to out anyone, you have only now produced the very convenient excuse that you know these things but aren't at liberty to tell us. Fram (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  You have asked me to produce the evidence. But not all of the evidence is on wiki. This is either "very convenient" or "close adherence to the policies". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  WhatamIdoing, your comment could be read as a veiled outing threat and could get you blocked or banned. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  When someone asks for private information about others – and anyone who's been around this long ought to be aware that most editors don't usually disclose information about several of the characteristics I mention – then I think it perfectly fair to ask him whether he'd like to be treated the way he would like to see others treated. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  No one was asking about private, not on wiki disclosed information about anyone, that's only your spin. You'll have a hard time convincing people that you somehow knew in person enough people in that discussion fitting in one of the above 8 groups you identify, to make any statistically relevant (or even somewhat convincing anecdotical) claims about how any group overwhelmingly reacted. But then again, correctly using such data doesn't seem to be your forte, as can be seen at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Requiring registration for editing. I already highlighted a number of wrong claims you made there, let's add one: "That community has almost halved in the last decade." Oh really?[12][13][14][15]. You have every right to be opposed to a ban on IP editing. That doesn't mean that you may make false claims again and again. The same applies to your remarks here, but of course no one can check your private "evidence", and if we doubt you anyway we are either socks or get threatened with outing. Fram (talk) 08:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are approximately 1mm away from getting reported for outing threats, aspersions (why am I always a sock when somebody doesn’t like me?) and generally acting needlessly unpleasant. Dronebogus (talk) 18:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Dronebogus, people lose account information or change usernames all the time. If you were there at the time, then I wouldn't want to tell you things you already know.

  If memory serves, just the main discussion was something on the order of 300K words long, or 11.3 tomats. It would take you a couple of days just to read the English content, and then there were the non-English discussions and the side discussions (mailing lists, IRC chats, formal and information conversations across most of the larger wikis). If you want to go read it, I particularly suggest seeking out the German-language content, as that was a significant factor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:00, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  As a wholly uninvolved editor, Colin's comment about holes could easily be applied to you too. You're only making it worse with most every comment. Sincerely, Dilettante 18:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  We assume in good faith that you have provided all of the evidence you feel appropriate to provide, anything which you haven't provided you don't feel is appropriate for us to consider. Failing to provide appropriate available evidence in a timely manner for a claim you make would raise competence questions. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Fram's description of WAID's post 05:00 4 Dec as a "resort to accusing an experienced editor of [b]eing some nebulous sockpuppet for daring to question you" is inflammatory, bad faith and inaccurate description of their question. They asked if Dronebogus had a previous account, which is not sockpuppetry as everyone here well knows. It is in fact a possible good faith explanation of how Dronebogus would be so highly familiar with an ancient discussion that they know with confidence that WAID's argument is "rubbish".

  The post at the VP: "full of prejudiced assumptions about who might disagree with you" is a personal attack. Clearly you guys disagree about the demographics and/or the importance of the demographics of who was involved and voted certain ways, and disagree about how much evidence either side has to support their claims. Nobody is going to convince the other side by making personal attacks about prejudice and throwing words like racist, sexist, bullshit and "competence questions" around. HEB mentions "tact and civility" while ignoring the comments of others which are neither tactful or civil. Fram could have carefully asked WAID for an explanation of their post, as they were uncomfortable with x/y/z. Instead they came here accusing a longstanding editor of making racist and sexist posts full of prejudice, to which Dronebogus has joined in with claims of stereotyping.

  It is possible to disagree on wiki history and to disagree on the merits of articles and sources without calling each other names. Regardless of whether there is any merit in Wikipedians debating the rights or wrongs of underage parenting and how those rights or wrongs influence what we write about, it needs both sides to be working under an assumption of good faith and collaborative spirit. This was very much not present from the start of this section, and continues to be what can only be described as poisonous.

  Nobody here is going to convince the others. Please drop it and go cool down somewhere else. -- Colin°^Talk 15:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Saying that one interaction lacks tact and civility does not obligate me to comment on every such comment... Please don't insult me like that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Nope. The assumption that editors are apparently unable to follow the link Whatamidoing posted with their sexist, racist remark and can only judge it if they were around at the time is stupid, and clearly meant to imply that Dronebogus is hiding their enwiki past somehow. And there is no personal attack in correctly describing someone's post. If there is no evidence for their description of those opposing her POV in such a way, then she was making prejudiced assumptions. If you want people "working under an assumption of good faith and collaborative spirit" then perhaps tell Whatamidoing to not paint people having a different opinion with such an insulting brush, to not imply that people must have some previous account for being able to, er, read, to be more careful in how they treat sensitive topics instead of givng the impression of "young women having sex = rape, young men having sex = willing fun", and so on. They are a longstanding editor, yes, but many problems with their approach to discussions and facts are longstanding as well. "disagree about how much evidence either side has to support their claims": no evidence is needed to support a negative. The burden is on Whatamidoing to demonstrate the comments from e.g. many childless white men that lead to their conclusion. So far, they have produced nothing to support it. When someone posts inflammatory, derogatory, sexist and/or racist comments, it is not up to others to prove them wrong: it is up to them to provide some evidence to back it up, or else to withdraw or amend their comments. The only thing "poisonous" is Whatamidoing poisoning the well by describing people opposed to image censoring as childless rich white men who edit Wikipedia because Jimmy Wales previously ran a porn site. I've gotten quite used to Whatamidoing's dubious debating tactics, but this was a new low even for them (or at least I hope it was a new low and not something recurrent I didn't notice so far). Fram (talk) 15:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Fram, HEB, holes and digging and all that. I'm not quite sure what you hope to achieve here other than amassing diffs for how hot-headed you can be. Posting outrageous misinterpretations of another's writings ("young women having sex = rape, young men having sex = willing fun") is a clear signal. You've made your point. Posting more only makes it worse. -- Colin°^Talk 16:56, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Well, an unintended result seems to be making it clear which editors are unconcerned about racist or sexist statements. Fram (talk) 17:06, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  The result AFAICT is to make it clear which editors struggle with the difference between "a statement about viewpoints differing by race or sex" and "a racist or sexist statement". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed. Your statements clearly fall into the latter category. Fram (talk) 17:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  The above appears to be an outrageous misinterpretation of my writing... Note that I am not involved in the underlying dispute. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  HEB, for clarity, the holes and digging was for both of you, but the latter part of my post at Fram. What concerned me about your posts were the "Failing to provide appropriate available evidence in a timely manner for a claim you make would raise competence questions" which appears hostile and a rather odd and unhelpful thing to say to WAID. And the thin skinned response to me calling out a one-sided attack over "tact and civility". This is a discussion whose opening post and continuing posts by some spectacularly lack tact and civility. If all things were fairly balanced, you would be right that you don't need to equally address both sides, but it quite clearly isn't. Asking WAID to explain comments that one had interpreted as racist or sexist but hoped weren't would be a tactful thing to do. Allowing them to explain their comments before jumping to bad faith conclusions would be a civil thing to do. But coming to this page, having misunderstood the posts and underestimated WAID's personal Wiki experience on this issue and accusing them of a pattern of making racist and sexist remarks and of prejudice, is unacceptable. Colin°^Talk 09:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  "having misunderstood the posts and underestimated WAID's personal Wiki experience on this issue". Since neither of these is true, your conclusion is invalid as well. Fram (talk) 09:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  What attack? What are you talking about? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Colin

  Allowing them to explain their comments before jumping to bad faith conclusions would be a civil thing to do. But coming to this page, … and accusing them of a pattern of making racist and sexist remarks and of prejudice, is unacceptable.

  Sure. Unacceptable, but they just won’t stop. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 12:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't assume that editors are apparently unable to follow the link I posted unless they were around at the time, but if they weren't participating in that discussion, it is unlikely that they have read more than a tiny bit of it, and very unlikely that they read any of the many discussions that happened around that time but not on that page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  working under an assumption of good faith and collaborative spirit. This was very much not present from the start of this section, and continues to be what can only be described as poisonous.

  Again, Colin, it’s very well-said, but it won’t be possible, because IMO the editor who started this discussion came with a grudge, as their attacks towards the WMF and it’s current/ex employees has been pointed out directly by WhatamIdoing. AFAICT, the OP (Fram) is a former admin that was desysopped by the WMF. This all began much like a retaliation. It can *only* be poisonous with no assumption of good faith and collaborative spirit. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 12:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  HEB, I have never actually been asked to provide evidence for the demographics of the people who participated in that discussion. I originally provided a summary of my impression. Anyone who wants to know who participated in the discussion and which views they held can read the discussion for themselves. Some of the evidence comes from off-wiki interactions with people. If you don't know the people involved, then you may have some difficulty in determining all the demographic characteristics, but your lack of personal knowledge is neither proof that I'm wrong nor a reason for me to out editors' personal situations.

  If you prefer to believe that editors from Muslim-majority countries were leading the drive to shove images of Mohammad in every reader's faces, or that parents were most insistent that there be no way to pre-emptively toggle off images of violence (a frequent European concern) and sex (a common American concern) on the computers their children use, then I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, but you won't convince me to share it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  How convenient that you can't provide the evidence for your remarks. Fram (talk) 17:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  If you aren't willing to publicly support the assertions you make then you shouldn't be making them publicly... And no, you making vaguely stereotypical guesses at users demographic details is not evidence its uncivil. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Would you be offended if I assumed, based on the extremely minimal information I have from your userpage, that you are probably a mother concerned about her children and that’s the sole basis for this elaborate argument? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing with everyone else— making assumptions with the bare minimum evidence. I’m a sock, everyone who disagrees with you is a sexist white man, etc. Dronebogus (talk) 18:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  I would not be offended by such a guess, but it would be wrong. This (i.e., that a high-volume editor does not have a house full of children) is something you should expect. Mothers do not seem to have enough time to contribute to Wikipedia as much as someone like me can. Even fathers don't necessarily have time to edit, at least when the kids are little. Some of the editors we've lost over the years send me baby photos when I ask why they've stopped editing, and we have some divorced fathers on the "edit when my ex has the kids" schedule. (There might be some divorced mothers on that schedule, but if so, none of them have told me that.)

  I've suggested in the past that editor surveys include questions about this, and they seem to be taking baby steps towards testing questions about caregiving of any kind, but there is obviously a difference between "having children" (at least young ones) and "sitting by the bedside". Both could be exhausting and time consuming, but the latter would be more conducive to editing Wikipedia. Parents (i.e., with children in the home, not empty nesters) are significantly underrepresented in our community, just like some other demographics are overrepresented (e.g., Autistic editors, editors with disabilities).

  I have never said that the people who opposed it are sexist, and I don't believe that's true. I have only said that the people who opposed the image filter tended to have certain demographic characteristics, not certain attitudes. Some of them believe(d) themselves to have quite noble reasons for opposing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  The problem I have, and I think most people here are having, with your conduct is that you’re engaging in what are basically civilized ad hominem arguments based on “lies, damned lies and statistics”. A majority of editors are white men, so that means everyone is opposing your arguments because they’re white men and not because arbitrary censorship is fundamentally incompatible with Wikimedian values? And the whole male sexual abuse thing is just… weird. Uncomfortable and weird. And I also don’t see how your remark about my account history is supposed to be interpreted as anything other than aspersions of sock puppetry, especially since this is seemingly a common enough tactic that I’ve been subjected to it multiple times. Dronebogus (talk) 00:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  ...Why bring up those editors' backgrounds at all in the VP discussion? Let alone characterize any set of traits with so much condescension and certainty? JoelleJay (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  I don't believe that Demography is destiny, but I do believe that demography has effects. For example: Our early community had certain demographic characteristics, and those characteristics led to agreements about (e.g.,) the notability of individual athletes and Playboy Playmates.

  If the community had instead mostly been made up of schoolteachers, we might have some decent articles on how to teach reading instead. If it had been mostly made up of small business owners or investors, we probably would have had lax rules about notability for businesses instead.

  In the particular case of the image referendum, we had a pretty stark demographic divide. We even talked about it at the time. But this is our community's demographics. The community is estimated to be ~85% men now, and it was more than 90% men back then. Most editors actually were from the US and Europe, so it is hardly surprising that most participants were from the US and Europe. The people participating in that discussion were even more likely than average to be from northern Europe. This is at least partly due to the German Wikipedia feeling like their decision to run de:Vulva on the Main Page in March 2010 "caused" the proposal in the first place, so they were very active in discussions.

  The participants' demographic backgrounds mattered. On a question of "Should we have a system for preëmptively filtering out photos of nude people?", you should not expect to get the same answer when you ask people who live in a country where billboard advertisements regularly and uncontroversially feature topless women vs people who live in a country where this would be criminal behavior. So, why bring up those editors' backgrounds? Because the participants' backgrounds drove the end result. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, you don't even consider "There is a high degree of racism from Anglos evident throughout this discussion. English is a universal language my friends, and not the property of colonial imperialists." a personal attack or truly problematic statement, but just something where "a little re-wording might be helpful."[16] Quite a pattern you are developing here. Fram (talk) 12:07, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

See linguistic racism, covert racism, structural racism, etc. It may be uncomfortable for us to be reminded that the rule proposed in that discussion will have a negative disparate impact along racial lines, but it is not IMO unreasonable for an affected editor to do so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

“Anglo” means “non-latino white” per the New Oxford American Dictionary. Even if you were generous and ”just” thought it meant “native english speaker”, it’s a distinction without a difference: one is racism (“all white people are racist”) and the other is xenophobia (“all native anglophones are racist”) that hews pretty close to just being racist. In any case “racist” is an unambiguous personal attack, even if “it’s true”. Dronebogus (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if you noticed, but the word racist doesn't appear in the disputed remark. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

“A high degree of racism from…” = “…is being racist” = “…is racist”. Basically if you bring up the r-accusation people are going to take it poorly. Can you politely accuse someone of racism? Dronebogus (talk) 08:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that you read about Societal racism. It is possible for racism to exist without anybody "being a racist". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

So you are defending a brand new editor who either is trolling or at the very least lacks the basic skills to contribute positively on enwiki[17], by rephrasing their attack into a more eloquent attack, still clearly implying that native English speakers don't want non-native English speakers to use LLMs on, er, the English language Wikipedia, simply because the natives are White and the non-natives aren't; while at the same time playing silly bugger games like "oh, it said racism, not racist, I win". Like I wise person once said, "Maybe try to imagine a world in which the other editor isn't wrong." Fram (talk) 08:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

In a discussion that is partially about how editors who speak English as a foreign language either are, or are not, permitted to participate in this community, I am indeed defending an editor whose contribution shows evidence of limited English skills (e.g., absence of eloquence, potentially incorrect words) and whose comment is about feeling excluded on that basis.

I can easily understand people feeling offended by the comment, but I'm not sure that feeling offended is proof that the comment is wrong. Covert racism is still racism. Unintentional racism is still racism.

Can you understand why people who are trying to help Wikipedia – AFD certainly needs people who can read non-English languages, for example – and who read a discussion that says:

• Oppose because we need these non-English speakers
• Support because they're lazy
• Oppose because this is used by non-English speakers
• Support because we should just block these people
• Support because this is disrespectful and cheating
• Support because you shouldn't participate if you can't write in English

might feel like quite a few editors were trying to discriminate against them in some way? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

"an editor whose contribution shows evidence of limited English skills (e.g., absence of eloquence, potentially incorrect words) and whose comment is about feeling excluded on that basis." I don't think we are looking at the same editor. This is not "absence of eloquence, potentially incorrect words" but nonsense. Fram (talk) 17:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Wrong diff? "Yes. You are correct." is not exactly evidence of eloquence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not a discussion on whether ESL editors "are, or are not, permitted to participate in this community", what a ridiculous and insulting strawman. No one is opposing editors simply machine-translating from their native language to communicate, something that has been fine for the two decades before ChatGPT. People are objecting to apparently-machine-generated arguments that have unclear provenance and a high chance of wasting people's time with hallucinations. Framing this as if the editors supporting collapsing obvious LLM comments are any kind of racist is frankly bordering on a personal attack. JoelleJay (talk) 17:45, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I have hesitated to bring up individual remarks, because it seems mean to pick in individuals, but here is a direct quotation from a very nice editor in that discussion: But what we do here is write in English: both articles and discussions. If someone doesn't have the confidence to write their own remark or !vote, then they shouldn't participate in discussions.

Can you imagine someone reading these two sentences and concluding that because they "don't have the confidence to write" in English, then this editor believes "they shouldn't participate in discussions"? Do you think that is a reasonably fair, or at least non-ridiculous, understanding of these two sentences? NB that I'm not asking whether it's your own interpretation – just whether you can see how someone with limited English skills might read those sentences and feel like their participation was being discouraged. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You're really going to pull out @Yngvadottir's thoughtful comment as the prime example of the imperialist/colonialist/Anglo/racist view that editors who cannot compose any amount of English prose confidently probably shouldn't participate in discussions in English on the English Wikipedia? JoelleJay (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm not calling this the prime example. I'm calling it "a" comment that could be interpreted as saying that people with limited English skills shouldn't participate in discussions, because it actually contains the exact words that "they shouldn't participate in discussions".

I notice that you don't claim that it's "ridiculous" (your word) to interpret "they shouldn't participate in discussions" as meaning "they shouldn't participate in discussions" or that it's "straw-manning" to say that this discussion is partly about who should and who "shouldn't participate".

I very strongly doubt any nefarious intent. I am saying that people who are looking at this problem from the other side of the English language gap are not being "ridiculous" if they feel like some editors in the discussion don't want them to participate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

One comment that might be interpreted as meaning "not even machine-translated non-English-speaker comments are acceptable" is obviously not representative of even a real minority of supporters' arguments, and anyway the comment appeared 3 days after the one in question so isn't at all relevant to your behavior there. JoelleJay (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not the only comment. You read English just fine. Put on your "other people's eyes" glasses for a minute and go read the discussion. Look for words like "lazy" and "cheating" and "ban these people".

Think about how the opening comment against people who "can't make a coherent argument on your own" would make you feel, especially if you didn't feel able to read 20,000 words (something that takes a native English speaker more than an hour to read) about it to discover that the OP didn't actually have English language learners in mind and doesn't actually object to English language learners using machine translation or even AI-based translation. Would you be feeling welcomed? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The "lazy" and "cheating" and "ban these people" comments were unambiguously about LLM-generated content, which is no more relevant to ESL speakers than it is to native speakers since both still have the option to write things in their own words.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with your appeal to "imagine how 'can't make a coherent argument on your own' would make you feel". People who cannot make a coherent argument on their own do not have the competence to participate in discussions. How is that remotely controversial? How would anyone proficient in any language see that statement, especially in the blindingly clear context of generative AI that it appears in, and think "this means it is no longer possible for me to contribute to discussions on en.wp, because I identify as someone who cannot compose coherent arguments"; or jump to the conclusion that this applies to "even AI-based translation" (which is basically all online translation now), despite not mentioning translation anywhere, and despite obviously being prompted by the recent topical issue of LLM-generated content, and despite LLM-based translation being a very niche market that doesn't even use the problematic capacity for creative extrapolation that distinguishes LLMs from predictive models? JoelleJay (talk) 01:44, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't "make" a coherent argument "on my own" in German. I need at least a dictionary, usually a machine translation tool, and sometimes a friend to check. Would you say I'm incompetent to participate in discussions?

The problem with saying "Oh, but I didn't literally mean that you have to 'make' the written text truly 'on your own'" is that it's unreasonable to expect English language learners to pick up on that nuance.

You and I know that there is a meaning of "making an argument" that doesn't include "writing" or "framing" or "expressing" that argument. You and I know that "on your own" usually means "with no tools, supports, or accommodations" ("The baby is standing on his own") but sometimes includes using relevant tools ("The engineer built that computer on his own"). But I think in the context of people saying that LLMs are bad (and they are!), we should not expect English language learners to assume that insisting that people must write "on your own" means "it's okay to use tools, including LLMs, to translate or correct the grammar, so long as it's your own original thoughts".

This discussion is basically an example of Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard. The proposed rule is that "Admins or other users evaluating consensus in a discussion should discount, ignore, or strike through or collapse comments found to have been generated by AI/LLM/Chatbots".

The rule that appears to be wanted is probably closer to this: "When evaluating comments in a discussion, please accept comments that appear to express genuinely held views by an editor, even if that editor used assistive tools such as AI/LLM/chatbots to correct their grammar or help them communicate in English, and please discount or ignore comments that appear to be purely generated by those same tools without representing the views of any human."

(Also: good luck telling the difference, especially if it's a short comment and not obviously hallucinating.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The proposal does not say "make a coherent argument on their own directly in English". Why would anyone interpret policy as literally forcing non-English speakers to attempt to compose English comments entirely on their own?

The number of users of "LLM translation tools" is vanishingly small and anyway those don't involve content generation, so I don't see why anyone using them or translation tools in general would think the proposal applies to them. If using translators to communicate was considered a problem it would have been brought up much earlier and the proposal would actually mention them.

All this looks a lot more like native English-speakers hand-wringing over the terrible possibility that someone on Earth might not feel warmly welcomed in meta-discussions on English Wikipedia. JoelleJay (talk) 02:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Why would anyone interpret this proposal (which is not a policy) as wanting non-English speakers to attempt to compose English comments "entirely on their own"?

I'd say that's probably because editors, from the very first comment, are using words like "not using their own words" to describe the unwanted behavior and "on your own" to describe what's wanted.

You may have heard the Maya Angelou line that "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time". Perhaps some editors are taking us at our word, and believing what we wrote the first time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, that was the topic under discussion: not whether EFL editors are welcome on en.wiki (and particularly, not whether they are welcome to contribute to articles), not even whether EFL editors are welcome in discussions (the example given at the outset was AfDs, IIRC), but what should be done about LLM usage in discussions. (As I mentioned, machine translation is already deprecated in article space here on en.wiki, and LLM usage in article space is I believe simply not tolerated.) As I attempted to point out—I'm a bit hampered right now, but I do stand by what I wrote—en.wiki already has, and has probably had since the 2nd week or earlier, significant EFL participation. Including some with native-or near-native writing ability, so we can't know how many (plus there are a lot of dialects of English; excellent written Indian English differs from my usage in many respects, for example.) And also significant participation from EFL writers who make spelling and grammar mistakes. It also has a lot of editors who don't claim any other languages on their user pages, but make spelling and grammar mistakes. I make some myself. It's a wiki, and usually a friendly community, IMO; people help others by fixing the mistakes (and we're pretty good at explaining the ENGVAR thing to native speakers who don't realise their usage isn't universal); and in discussions, people ask if they didn't understand, maybe suggesting a different word. (Who knows, the word used may have a jargon meaning I didn't know, or be the preferred word in English as taught in China.) So "the English language gap" doesn't really exist. There is no chasm between English-native and EFL; there isn't even a defined border, like a streambed, and there aren't 2 distinct sides. Try imagining people standing and sitting at various points on a bunch of hillocks, and moving up and down to grasp each others' hands and haul someone up or sideways a bit. The actual process of communication and collaboration is easier than the mataphor I came up with, because humans collaborate well. Bifurcating native/EFL (even without bringing in colonialism; the sun may have not set on the British Empire, but the British Empire didn't include everywhere and is not solely to blame/thank for the widespread use of English, particularly online, in 2024) is not helpful. It actually strikes me as condescending, if only in defining the EFL Wikipedian as necessarily less than able. From that perspective very different to yours: yes, if an editor doesn't feel they can say what they mean in a discussion and instead has an LLM—a gussied-up search tool designed for writing flowery extended arguments—confabulate their comment, then they shouldn't participate in that discussion. The tool may say something different from what they intended. It may say something that makes them look bad—I gave an example that arose when a Nigerian editor used an LLM at AN and the LLM's output was a nasty personal attack. At the very best it will make them look silly. Participation in AfDs, policy discussions, and other behind-the-scenes discussions is not mandatory. If someone really wants to make a point—for example, to defend an article—then they should just try, and it will always be better than having ChatGPT drop a 5-paragraph brochure into the discussion. Even if it has a wrong word or two or an agreement error. (Again, that's not an unheard-of level of English from some presumed "natives", in discussions.) It will be what they actually wanted to say. LLMs are not better. They muck things up in unpredictable ways. (I'm also going to say this: as a past teacher of ESL and also of another language, I would consider any past student of mine who used an LLM to make a comment in a discussion venue to be shaming me. Teachers of foreign languages seek to equip students with the tools to say what they want to say, with or without a dictionary. I'm sure some of these overly nervous people had better teachers than I was.) ...Those are the main legs on which I stood the part of my argument to which you object. You are of course free to disagree with me as strongly as you desire. But I do find invidious your simple dualism of native–non-native. And I also wonder whether you aren't taking too prominent a role, as an ally, through not considering what a wide range of English backgrounds there are—including its being an official government language in some countries, and the whole world of online and off-line "international English" (see Simple English Wikipedia, but there are also folks whose English is primarily aural–oral, built in large part on TV and movies, and who write it mainly in chat channels :-).) You may be crowding out EFL editors with different perspectives. I'm biting my tongue not to identify one. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that any EFL editors with different perspectives will find that I've made 1.7% of the comments in that Village pump discussion, which I doubt anyone will consider "crowding them out".

In addition to the native–non-native spectrum, I think that language family plays a role. It's easier to learn English if you already speak Dutch than if you already speak Chinese. I struggle to remember the correct definite pronoun in German, but because I'm an English speaker, I expect articles to exist and have a sense of whether they belong (though the rules vary a little between the two: "He is a physician" vs "Er ist Arzt). Articles don't exist in Chinese. It is a source of confusion and insecurity – one more thing to get wrong, one more way for editors to subconsciously decide that you don't belong, don't know what you're talking about, can be safely disregarded. The 'polish' that an LLM system produces might help in most cases. The problem, of course, is that it might be harmful in others (just like ordinary machine translation. Back in the day, Google Translate used to turn German statements meaning "I don't" into "I do". Depending on the language pair, an LLM might not be any worse).

I'm sorry you would discourage EFL editors from participating "if an editor doesn't feel they can say what they mean", especially in AFDs. IMO we really need people who are fluent in Chinese and other non-English, non-Western languages at AFD. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools some time. There are 16 schools listed at the moment. Glancing through the names, as many as 14 of them might be from non-English speaking countries. They're often sent to AFD by a nom who can't read the local language/script and who didn't attempt to search by its non-English name. That doesn't result in accurate evaluations of notability, even by the relatively weak standards of "I put the name in a web search engine and didn't see anything on the first screen of results".

BTW, you might be interested in chatting with Piotrus about his EFL students in Asia. The use of translation tools is ubiquitous, with browser plugins automatically translating everything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I ran into this discussion accidentally.

I would like to say that I agree with Fram and JoelleJay over the removal of that comment as a personal attack. It was an aspersion, as it implied that other participants of the discussion have racist motivation or bias without presenting evidence. Moreover, it was based on its referrents being Anglos, which is a national or ethnic categorization, thus fitting the first bullet point of WP:NPA#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack?.

In my opinion, enforcing civility must take priority over preferences based on political concepts. This rule is being followed on Wikipedia as of today, and is one of the main reasons why editing Wikipedia has been such a pleasant activity for me so far. This experience greatly contrasts for me to what I have experienced on Mastodon and both pre-Musk and under-Musk Twitter, where I found the levels of verbal aggression to be extreme but close to no moderation against it, creating an highly unwelcoming atmosphere for me, despite a very strong (and ironically, anglocentric) focus on abstract social justice concepts both by users and administrators.

By the way, the term racism feels overused in the mainstream Anglo(-Saxon) political discourse. For those who like to talk about systemic biases in English-speaking spaces against cosmophones (this is a non-negated term for non-anglophones which I promote), I would like to suggest saying Anglo cultural (or linguistic) imperialism or just anglicism instead, though this likewise must also be done with care. NicolausPrime (talk) 06:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

If you are so worried about editors who might feel discriminated against, why didn't you bat an eye when an editor posted [18] this hate-filled rant but simply answered as if nothing untoward had happened? Fram (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Because I'm a WP:VOLUNTEER, and I thought that I already has as many discussions about discrimination on my hands as I could manage to reply to right now.

If you are worried about discriminatory comments, why are you posting that link here? Wikipedia:Don't create a Streisand effect seems like a relevant concept. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A question

Greetings and salutations @WhatamIdoing, I've had a good time reading through this talk page. I noticed that you have quite a lot of experience here so I was wondering if you might be able to answer a question: I've seen that some administrators have protected their own talk pages, as well as the talk pages of other administrators. Is this...allowed? And if so, doesn't it kind of contradict the point of being an administrator? I would think that administrators should practically be as available as possible to all other editors. Thanks for your time. Big Thumpus (talk) 02:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus, it is allowed, it is rare, and it is usually due to sustained and sometimes very severe harassment campaigns. Admins may be more frequent targets for this type of harassment, but the same protection is available to anyone who demonstrably needs it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Anti-Systemic Bias Barnstar
		Thank you for being one of the most upright persons I have ever known. I hope you like this. :-) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 06:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Medicine Barnstar
		WAID for your support of WikiProject Medicine Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Saints Star Award

		Saints Star Award
		For the patience, clarity, wisdom and accumulated knowledge that you bring to Wikipedia through thick and thin ... thank you ... and may memories of the productive times always outweigh those trying times! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

+1 --Dustfreeworld (talk) 12:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

story · music · places

I agree and thank you particularly for your positive contribution to the RfC about the composer of the opera I look forward to see today, - my story. Happiness and sadness under music, travel pics under places, unfinished. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:11, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Listen today to Beethoven's 3rd cello sonata, on his birthday - it was a hook in the 2020 DYK set when his 250th birthday was remembered. I picked a recording with Antônio Meneses, because he was on my sad list this year, and I was in Brazil (see places), and I love his playing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I come to fix the cellist's name, with a 10-years-old DYK and new pics - look for red birds --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Today is a woman poet's centenary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:ANI discussion

I've started a discussion about your edits, suggesting either a topic ban or a final warning for you, at WP:ANI#User:WhatamIdoing, sexism and racism. Fram (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

For the record

The case was closed with no action on 11 December by an uninvolved administrator ("After reading through the discussion and diffs, I see nothing actionable for any involved parties").

Seven administrators (not including the closing admin) had commented in that discussion, one of them is also a bureaucrat and two are checkusers. Like the closer, none of them see anything actionable for WhatamIdoing. Of the bureaucrat and checkusers, one opined that "this is blatant hounding by Fram and ... should be met with a WP:BOOMERANG", while another expressed "strong support for both an interaction ban and a community ban for Fram".

---

--Dustfreeworld (talk) | 17:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

(There’s no need to reply to this discussion anymore. Thank you.)

---

Have a care (or not)

In this comment you said ordinary readers care but I think you meant ordinary readers don't care? Thryduulf (talk) 01:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Electronic harassment, Gangstalking, Targeted individual, etc

There is a sadly large community of folks on Reddit and other places who self-perpetuate conspiracies that they are being pursued and harassed by shadowy figures. I have sympathy for these people, but we should not be bending Wikipedia articles to accomodate or perpetuate those beliefs in any way; that would not be doing them any favors in the long run. It's certainly possible for someone to be harassed by electronic means, but Electronic harassment is specifically about the delusional case. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:26, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's continue talking about that on the article's talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

A fox for you!

WAID, I can’t find a fox called LinaBell from the templates :-/

I hope you like this :-)

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:20, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Reliable Sources Out of the West

Hi I noticed you mentioned " amodbd, comillarkagoj and dailyamadercomilla" as reliable sources for Bengal. I often work on non-western articles and find WP:RSP to not cover any of the sources in the article. Is there a page you have these sources to as perennial/reliable sources for Bengali matters? Have you considered trying to expand WP:RSP for these sources? Czarking0 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

@Czarking0, I believe that you are referring to this comment, which is from Worldbruce. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

@Czarking0: I believe those three are reliable for local news in and around the city of Comilla. That's based on my years editing Bangladesh-related topics. Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh has an expandable section of "Bangladesh resources", but there has been hesitancy to list more newspapers there than The Daily Star (which is the Bangladeshi newspaper closest in stature to The Times or The New York Times). List of newspapers in Bangladesh lists notable newspapers, which of course is not the same as reliable, but is an adequate proxy. Wikipedians experienced in the space know which ones are unreliable for certain years or for certain topics.

Feel free to ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bangladesh. We aren't experts on Bengal-related sources in the Republic of India, but have some familiarity with them. You can also ask at WP:RSN. If a source is questioned enough times there, it will make its way to WP:RSP. --Worldbruce (talk) 20:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

ANI report on electronic harrassment SPA

Hey, I am thinking of filing an ANI report on the SPA about bludgeoning, but I saw you are having a convo on the talk page of that article. I'll hold off if you think the editor is good-faith arguing and is just a newbie (I've lost track of the intricacies of the argument at this point). Bluethricecreamman (talk) 22:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I could also wait and see behaviour after RFC is posted, if that works as well. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:10, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

What outcome do you really want from ANI? If you just want the editor kicked off the page, then a partial block is something we could ask an individual admin for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

partial block if WP:SEALIONing and WP:STICK on that article doesn't stop within a reasonable limit by new user. you seem to be the last one giving user patience, and if you think we can avoid WP:BITING and come to reasonable conclusion i'll wait Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we'll come to a reasonable conclusion; the only question is whether it will become reasonable/necessary to block the user. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:38, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Based on behavior so far, the user responds to any engagement by arguing their position and refuting any opposition. It's a predictable cycle. RFC or no RFC, I expect this behavior will not change. IMO you should stop engaging and feeding the cycle. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I haven't seen the editor actually wikt:refute anything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:48, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

From their perspective, they are refuting. My point is that conversational engagement is only prolonging the WP:TE disruption which has gone on far too long. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Non-responsiveness, OTOH, might result in an RFC, which wastes more time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

PBLOCK applied by an individual admin. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:19, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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