Talk:Rotational falls

This is a talk page for the article Rotational Falls in Eventing Watercolours1707 (talk) 01:00, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Editor advice prior to publication

Per your request at my talkpage, I am going to make some edits and suggestions. Revert whatever your don’t like and we can discuss. You’re off to a great start, and the topic is quite import, so I’m glad you are doing it. So, next:

First off, realize that a Wikipedia article is not a term paper, so some general content is better addressed by adding wikilinks, and that’s what I will do for you here. Second, I am going to chop the whole “what is eventing” section because we already have an article about eventing...though it isn’t a great article and if you wanted to improve it with some of your material here, that’s worth considering. Third, I would suggest retitling the article simply “Rotational falls,” and focus on that. Even though it’s primarily an issue in eventing, it is a safety and medical concern in any equestrian discipline where such a fall can occur. Montanabw^(talk) 01:05, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your suggestions User talk:Montanabw - I like all three (as you can see I have already changed the heading of the article). I am planning still to include information on a couple of specific cases in which fatalities occurred and then I was also going to do research to add a section discussing the changes which have occurred over time to increase the safety of cross country to prevent rotational falls. Do you have any other suggestions or feedback? Are you personally able to approve and publish this article or is that capacity reserved for a certain group of Wikipedia Editors? Thank you again and in advance! Watercolours1707 (talk) 01:22, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I’m all done for now. Between my above comments and what you will see I changed, I hope all is clear. If I misstated anything, just fix it. 😎 I’m looking forward to seeing your additions before commenting further on content. I have the authority to approve new pages and move them to mainspace, and will be glad to do so. I commented at your talkpage what to do when you think its ready. Montanabw^(talk) 01:40, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the article to main space. It still would benefit from some additional work, but it’s over the threshold for notability, adequately covering the topic, and meeting WP style. I’d like to see you add some info on how the FEI changed their rules, how they now require at least some fences to have breakaway components, how horses who have had a rotational fall might be restricted from future competition, and so on. Also, curious if there are stats on horse fatalities from these falls, particularly in comparison to rider falls. If you want to add more stuff, that’s what might be of interest. You might also want to consider submitting the article at Did you know?. You have five days to do so, and I know that DYK reviewers may ask you to make additional quality improvements, but I wanted to give you a heads up about the possibility. Montanabw^(talk) 02:39, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rotational falls/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 14:43, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Criteria

1. Well-written

Prose clear/concise/understandable N Not very concise, due to excessive use of direct quotes.

Spelling/Grammar N Needs some copy edit done for punctuation

MOS lead N needs a little work

MOS layout N several section headings need new names

Fiction/Buzzwords/lists/etc N - Excessive use of examples

2. Verifiable

No OR N A few places where citations are needed, or where it looks like data is analyzed by the editor.

Inline citations from reliable sources N

List of references formatted properly Y

No COPYVIO Y

3. Broad in coverage

Covers main aspects Y

Stays on topic N Undue weight to examples of incidents

4. Neutral

Tone N The tone of this article is not consistent with encyclopedic tone. It's too essay-like in some places.

5. Stable Y

6. Illustrated

Media tagged for copyright status Y

Media relevant N Undue usage of gallery

Comments

Lead - Why is eventing see also-ed at the top of the page? The one in the section at the bottom of the page should be sufficient. Also, the two sentence discussion of eventing at the end of the lead is a bit off-topic. See MOS:LEAD. While eventing should definitely be mentioned in the lead, rotational falls are the topic of the article, and thus should be the focus of the lead. The lead could probably be a couple sentences longer to, as the lead length is usually relative to article length, and the length of the article here would

Section headings What is a rotational fall? and Why are rotational falls most likely to occur in the sport of eventing? are not compliant with MOS:HEADING. Headings should not read like essay titles or end in punctuation marks.

What is a rotational fall - The second sentence would make a much better starting point for this article. It makes a lot more sense to state that horse riding is dangerous before discussing the dangers of horse riding.

"Horse riding is described as a "hazardous pastime",[1] with a high level of injuries and in some cases, death" - The rest of the sentence needs a citation, too.

"“Between May 1997 and September 2007 25 rider deaths occurred around the world in the sport of Eventing”,[2] 18 of these fatalities resulted from rotational falls." - Overreliance on direct quotes here, paraphrase (but not too close of paraphrasing) and then cite should be what you go for. Also, the comma would be better served by a semicolon here. A citation is needed for the statistic of 18, too.

"possibility of a fall occurring can be increased by a variety of factors including; condition of ground, experience of rider, experience of horse, type of jump, undertaking of course prior to fall and/or position on the scoreboard." - Not great punctuation here, the introduction into the list is very awkward. Also, the length of this can be reduced by combining the experience of the horse and rider.

Why are rotational falls most likely to occur in the sport of eventing? - " these obstacles are solid and unforgiving (photos below show examples of jumps on a course)." Can you find a different adjective than "unforgiving"? You appear to be a newer editor, and it takes while to get a feel for Wikipedia's tone, but this word is not really tone consistent.

Also, the parenthetical inside for seeing the images below should not be included.

""horse hits a solid fence either with its chest or upper forelegs"." - Again, overuse of direct quotes here. Direct quotes should generally only be used when either the quote is necessary for context, meaning would be lost by the quote, or if the quote is historically significant or significant in some other way. This quote would be better off paraphrased.

"The jumps being solid "demands that a rider approach the jump at exactly the right speed, take off from the right angle and spot"." - Same as above, this should be paraphrased.

This is not a good use of a gallery, see WP:GALLERY. One image would be sufficient to illustrate how an obstacle could cause a rotational fall, and the other five are excess. (In my opinion, the one with the big log is the best example and should be the one kept). Also, any images used should have captions.

General comment - Watch which quotation marks you use. " is the right use of the marks in Wikipedia, and several instances of ” are present, most likely from being caught over in copying segments to the article, since they're only present where you use direct quotes.

Background and case studies - This isn't really background material, the section headings ending in question marks are background sections. (Although Overview might make a better heading for the first one). Also, we shouldn't highlight a section as case studies, so a new heading is needed here, too.

Another general comment: eventing is sometimes capitalized as a proper noun, and sometimes not. I would believe this is not a proper noun, as names of sports are not proper nouns (baseball, cricket).

"Eventing is no different, it is " - We need either as conjuction (" ... different, as it is ... ") or a semicolon here.

"it is "a sport in which the vast majority of rider injuries are minor and insignificant, but in which the possibility of catastrophic results always exist"." - Too long of a direct quote where it's not entirely needed. Only having the second part of this as a direct quote would work.

"(ranging from small to large scale possibilities)" - Not necessary

Statistics - "Although Eventing as a sport dates to 1902, it wasn't until 1999 that concerns of horse and rider safety emerged." - This implies that nobody was concerned about rider safety until '99, which is rather dubious. A qualifier such as "widespread" before concerns would be better (unless, of course, nobody at all did have concerns about safety until then).

"had a rotational fall by their horse leading to their death" - Isn't, by definition, a rotation fall performed by a horse, making "by their horse" redundant?

""at least 37 eventing riders have died as a result of injuries incurred while competing in the cross-country phase of eventing"" - make this a little more concise, such as "37 riders died during the cross-country phase of eventing"). Paraphrase is usually better.

"However, some "top competitors, coaches and course designers argue that the sport's death and injury toll is most likely related to an influx of new riders to the sport"[7], suggesting a lack of experience increases the likelihood of suffering a fall" - This is a good use of a direct quote, as the use of the quote illustrates context that would be lost. However, a citation is needed for the part after the quote. If the information is within source the quote came from, the citation can come at the end of the paragraph. If not, it can be found within the same source as the quote, it needs its own citation.

Is "Eventing Risk Management," a proper noun?

What's a starter in this context? It needs either an explanation or a wikilink.

General copyedit for punctuation in this section. The use of commas for numbers in the thousands should also be used everywhere, instead of only in some places.

"Comparing these rotational fall statistics across a ten year expanse convey a clear decrease in rotational falls and rotational falls resulting in serious injury." - Citation needed, we shouldn't be analyzing data ourselves, that's WP:OR.

That's only through the end of the section statistics. I'll get to the rest of the article, checking the references, and checking the images soon. Hog Farm (talk) 16:04, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Australian cases - ""in the process of jumping the second fence”" - This should be paraphrased, and also has an example of the incorrect quotation marks.

"the incident as "absolutely horrendous"[9] and "something that we couldn't have predicted.”[9]" - If everything in the sentence comes from the same source, you only need a citation at the end of the sentence. (I think that appears elsewhere in the article, too).

""a fence only 210 metres from the start of the cross country course”" - Why is this a direct quote? It just seems really unncessary. You could state that the fall occurred near the beginning of the course (I'm assuming 210 meters is early on) and avoid the direct quote.

"two tragic deaths" - Yes, these two deaths are very very tragic. However, this is not a good adjective to use in this case, read WP:TONE.

British cases "On the 4th" - Superscript not helpful here.

"a widely celebrated British Eventer (“narrowly missed being part of the Athens (Olympic) team”[12])" - Lots of things here. First, "widely celebrated" falls against WP:NPOV, the direct quote is not good (you can avoid the NPOV and excessive direct quote issues by paraphrasing that she almost made the Olympic team), and the citation should go after the punctuation (the close parenthesis, in this case).

" after which Caroline lay" - Use her last name here, not her first. Also, the two feet of water direct quote is a good example of a direct quote - the quote is short and conveys the exact detail of the source in a situation where it would be helpful.

"emerged “in about two feet of water”[12], despite resuscitation attempts at the scene and in hospital she passed away." To avoid a run-on sentence, it would probably be best to have despite resuscitation attempts start off its own sentence.

"The teenager has been described" - Not to sound dark, but since the subject is deceased, would past tense be better here?

American cases- "On the 14th of May 2016" - Again, the superscript is not necessary.

"CCI***" - Does the group actually have three trailing asterisks in its name?

"training/schooling" - probably only one of these is necessary.

"at "Standing Ovation Equestrian Centre (SOEC) in Halfmoon Township, Pennsylvania"" - Excessive direct quote, paraphrase.

"Following what was believed to be a rotational fall, the 13-year-old US girl and her horse have both died." - Have should be removed for tense purposes.

Horse and rider safety - ""while equestrian sports are considered to have a certain degree of risk associated with them, there are ways to make them safer"" - Do we really need a direct quote here when a paraphrase would work just fine. Direct quotes are useful, but only should be used sparingly. This article uses lengthy direct quotes too often.

Helmets - Don't include wikilinks in headings.

" Equestrian Australia have" - The organization is a singular entity, so use has.

"all helmets but have a coloured tag on them visible to officials which conveys the helmet has been checked and complies to current standards. - Citation needed for the second half of the sentence.

Body protectors - ""only by the end of 2006 did the NEC decide that body protectors would be compulsory"" An odd thing to direct quote, it should be paraphrased. See MOS:QUOTE, it explains this issue better than I can.

""and reduce compression of the chest" - Overuse of direct quote.

Greasing legs

""a horse's front and hind legs to prevent trauma from the brush jumps, and if they hit an obstacle, they'll slide off it a little bit more"" - Again, direct quote too long. Directs quotes are much less effective is overused.

"This particularly assists in the prevention of rotational falls as it encourages the legs, even if they hit the jump to slide over, as opposed to be caught or left behind causing a possible trip or rotational fall." - Citation needed

Frangible pins and mim clips - "However, as this technology is relatively new they are" - Who are they?

Probably 30% of this entire section is direct quotes, that's way to much.

EquiRatings - This section is only cited to the tool's own website, a WP:PRIMARY source. We need references in WP:SECONDARY sources to prove that this is actually important. This section will need reworked as a result.

That's it for the article text, I'm still yet to review the sources and images. Hog Farm (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

That entire section of examples - Please read WP:DUE. While some instances of accidents would be helpful to illustrate how this is dangerous, six examples provides undue weight to this portion of the article. There's just too much example there. WP:EXAMPLEFARM is only an essay, so nothing in there is binding. However, it is good advice for dealing with examples. Hog Farm (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Is ponybox.com a WP:RS? It looks like a blog or forum site.

Same with horseriding.com. I don't know these sources well enough to evaluate them.

Did you access the two coroner's reports online or as a physical copy in a library or courthouse or somewhere like that? If found online, they should have a url= parameter to indicate where they were accessed from.

Is horsenetwork.com reliable?

Is an-eventful-life.com reliable?

Tack Shack is an online retail site, so it would not be considered a reliable source.

Noelle Floyd appears to be a blog (at least the subpage cited here), blogs are not reliable sources.

What makes eventingnation.com a reliable source?

The image licensing is all fine, and the copyvio check comes up clean after accounting for the overuse of direct quotes.

That's it for the GA review. Hog Farm (talk) 18:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Watercolours1707 Sorry, but I'm going to have to fail this one for now. There's just too much work, especially with the MOS issues, that it's too much to be addressed in a single GA review timespan. That doesn't mean this can't become a good article, that just means it isn't ready. Feel free to make the improvements needed and renominate after the article is improved. This one just isn't ready yet. Hog Farm (talk) 19:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC)