Talk:Phrygia

Name

Is Cybele cognate with Gebal, Geba'al? Human sacrifice to Cybele is reminiscent of sacrifices to Ba'al, is there some connection?

Was the Phrygian cap worn by Mithra the Persian god (Zoroastrian, pre-Christ), or Mithras the Roman god (the Bull-Slayer, 2nd cty BC to 5th cty AD)?
Jorge Stolfi 02:53, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Since we have late Achaemenid inscriptions mentioning the Persian Mithra, who was not a god but an intermediary angelic figure, (someone-- Campbell?-- referring to Mithra as a "Zoroastrian hersey") but no identified image (that I know), the first appearance of an icon of Mithra/Mithras (the -s ending makes Persian into Greek ) is in the relief sculptures which reveal the style of the Pergamum school of sculptors, Hellenistic, that is post-Alexander, as might be expected. Google "Mithras" in the Image mode to see how unchanging the icon remains. Mithras makes his debut already wearing the "Phrygian" cap. Compare and contrast the "Iranian" tunic and trousers of Mithras with the outfit of non-Iranian Attis, the autochthonous Phrygian consort of Phrygian Cybele (Google "Attis"). Similar? Anatolia was a cultural battleground between local traditions, with an overlay ofHellenic and Persian ones for a couple of centuries, until Alexander's conquests settled it-- but only at the government level... Wetman 03:40, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC) forgives all.

Aulos is not a flute

The article mentions the "aulos, or double flute", and links to the wikipedia article on the aulos. But by clicking through, you can see that that article says the aulos was a reed instrument, and that "flute" is a mistranslation. So I'm taking out the ", or double flute".

The date of the Phrygians

The Sea Peoples are roughly contemporaries of the Trojan War, ca. 1250-1150 BCE. So, there seems to be a temporal contradiction here, in that the Phrygians were allies of Troy in the Trojan War (ca. 1250 BCE), and even had a pre-Trojan War King Gordias (ca. 1275 BCE??)... yet are not supposed to have appeared in Asia Minor until the invasions of the Sea Peoples of ca. 1200 - 1150 BCE... what gives???

The present article dates the Phrygians to 1200-700 BC, which is misleading. Wikipedia articles in other languages does not conform to these dates. The Phrygian kingdom suffered from foreign incursions in the 7th century BC, but the Phrygian state and culture survived until the Persian conquest by the mid 6th century BC. The "Trojan" date of 1200 BC should be taken with extreme caution, since there are no archeological neither textual support for the Phrygian state and culture before the 9th century BC. The Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I encountered a people he called Mushki on the Euphrates c.1100 BC. Centuries later, Mushki was the Assyrian name of the Phrygians. Assyrian ethnical and geographical names are however too vague to show Tiglath-Pileser´s Mushki were the same as the Gordian kingdom. --JFK 11:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

First, since other language wikipedias are not the basis for information that we go on, the idea that this wikipedia should be made to conform with other language wikipedia articles is a non argument. Second, there is enough continuity between the Mushki / Brugi who moved into the old Hittite area ca. 1200 BC at the time of the Sea People movements, and the Mushki / Frugi who still lived in the same place in 800 BC, and the suggestion that the Mushki of 1200 BC went away somewhere and were replaced by a different Mushki of 800 BC is pure original research. The books about the Hittites I can read (in English) give plenty of detailed sources corroborating that the Mushki were one of the main entities that filled in the Hittite vacuum, and almost immediately judging from the Assyrian sources, which are not vague. Mushki is also the name that this nation called themselves. So I think there is ample justification for moving the "start date" back to 1200 BC. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the Tiglath-Pileser I and the Neo-Assyrian Mushki are the same or not, we can't talk about a Phrygian kingdom from 1200 BC, as far as I know. It has much information but put in a confusing way and not allways accurate. It needs a good cleanup. --Amizzoni 07:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don´t know what books about the Hittites you refer to since none, except the dubious Macqueen, is given in the list of references. Please put your focus on the issue that the existence of a people (in western Anatolia from c.1200 BC) does not imply a kingdom: Phrygia was a kingdom in the west central part of the Anatolian highlands, part of modern Turkey, from ca. 1200 BC to 550 BC (Wikipedia: Phrygia article, March 18, 2006). A cultural continuity, (which I BTW stressed in my own edition, thanks for letting me keep the Knobbed Ware sentence at least), cannot postulate a Phrygian kingdom back in 1200 BC, why I think this is misleading. Without the single battle reference by Tiglath-Pileser I of the Mushki in 1100 BC there is simply no archaeological nor textual support for a Phrygian kingdom in the 12th century BC, the 11th century BC, the 10th century BC and the 9th century BC. Please don´t confuse this with the more exstensive Assyrian references of the Mushki in the time of Tiglat-Pileser III and forwards in the 8th century BC, which is also confirmed by archaeological excavations at Gordion and other Anatolian sites.

--JFK 13:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it depends how you define "kingdom". You seem to admit now there is some cultural continuity from the Phrygian / Mushki invaders of 1200 BC, and the Phrygian / Moschoi "kingdom" of 700 BC. I agree with you that the 1200 BC migrant invaders did not have a fully established Nation-state in the modern sense of the word. But if "kingdom" merely means that they had a "king" (a monarchy), then they were almost certainly a "kingdom". The Greek stories also say they were led out of the Balkans to Asia by their King, before the Trojan War. But if you have some fancier definition for "kingdom" than just "led by a king", we can probably find a different term to describe the earlier Phrygians.

I'm not sure why you call MacQueen dubious. His work is widely considered one of the foremost authorities on Iron Age Anatolia, and he didn't spend all that time at Ankara just sight-seeing! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggested changes

I suggest a change of the current first sentence in the article to:

In antiquity, Phrygia was a kingdom in the west central part of the Anatolian Highland, part of modern Turkey. The Phrygian people settled in the area from ca. 1200 BC, and established a kingdom in the 8th century BC, which lasted until the Persian conquest in 550 BC.

In addition to this I suggest a change of this long sentence in the Migration paragraph of the History section:

After the collapse of the Hittite Empire at the beginning of the 12th century BC, the political vacuum in central/western Anatolia was filled by a wave of Indo-European migrants and "Sea Peoples", including the Phrygians, who established their kingdom, with a capital eventually at Gordium. (Wikipedia: Phrygia article, March 18, 2006)

Since the Hittites and the Luwians (as discussed in the Luwian language article) who inhabited central/western Anatolia also were Indo-Europeans, it sounds strange to speak of Indo-European migrants invading Indo-European peoples. Most of them, like the Lukka (Lycians?) already lived there during the Late Bronze Age. My suggestion is:

...was filled by a wave of migrants, including the Phrygians, who eventually established their kingdom, with a capital at Gordium. --JFK 13:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

But it was Indo_European migrants invading Indo-European peoples, strange as that may sound to you. "Sea Peoples" is also correct, I don't see any case for cutting that descriptor. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Date of the destruction at Gordium: Sims “ Thanks to recent chronological developments, we now can place the conflagration around 800 BC instead of 700, as had been long held, which means that the Destruction Level provides a picture of Phrygian life as it was by the end of the 9th, not the end of the 8th century” Shouldthe article reflect this? ````

Division

According to Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (Mish, Frederick C., Editor in Chief. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster Inc., 1985. ISBN 0-87779-508-8, ISBN 0-87779-509-6 [indexed], and ISBN 0-87779-510-X [deluxe].), Phrygia was divided about 400 B.C. into Greater Phrygia (the inland region) and Lesser Phrygia (region along the Hellespont). — Quin 04:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm no historian, but I think this article says the Phrygian civilization ended around 1200 BCE, yet began around the 8th century BCE, which as anyone would know, would mean they travel back in time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.75.91 (talk) 09:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Tried to clarify by using the word "Hittite" before terminating empire. The Phrygians displaced the outgoing Hittites. Student7 (talk) 11:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Thracia, Dacia, etc.

Instead of placing "see also" to languages and people who might be related, maybe an installation of template "Indo-European topics" might be more appropriate. No point in filling upt this section. That wheel has already been invented. Also, it seemed like "clutter" to me since no connection was made other than Midas's adoption. Student7 (talk) 16:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

WHERE IS IT

It would be terribly informative if, in the first sentence, it said parenthetically "(modern day ....)". Is it modern day Greece? Anybody? Thanks... 72.81.236.22 (talk)

The first sentence mentions "antiquity," meaning the really old days. Definitely not modern. Anatolia is a historic name for a part of what is now Turkey.
Having said that, shouldn't we say "Ionia" someplace? Student7 (talk) 02:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

is it similar

Sabazios - S(a)(v/w)az'os -Swazog ? The last one is know from 9th c ad. 24.15.123.48 (talk) 12:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't understand that you were making a serious comment.

I only know what the article Sabazios says. Feel free to comment there!Student7 (talk) 13:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Turkish Name of the Phrygia

As most of the direct descendants of the Phrygians and other ancient anatolian civilizations currently speak Turkish but are mostly of ancient anatolian ancestry, the name of these civilizations should also be provided in Turkish language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lycianhittite (talk • contribs) 23:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

To name what ? Turkish people must have some mixture whit ancient anatolian nations but it does not mean ancient nations turned into turkish nations as this nations can migrate to another land and contuniue to their existence.such as many scolars and historian considers armenians are descendants of phrigians which i can find many common cultural and lingustic evidents and would share that evidence and idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.110.120 (talk) 21:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Part of Greek History

I was reading the article and I was disappointed to see that Phrygia was labeled as part of Turkish history. Although it belongs (geographically) in modern Turkey, it is a part of Greek history. Please see to that. D. Leventis (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Gordium label in template

Instead of "Biggest city", wouldn't "Capital" be a better label before "Gordium"? 74.219.18.35 (talk) 02:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

The base article for this addition is only somewhat accurate, there are many flaws and half truths.

I am a Phrygian; modern Freije is the same as Phrygi. My Grandfather was from Damascus; came to America in 1890's/early 1900's with a group that first moved to Troy New York. Phrygian influence is a dominate influence in ancient and present day everything; and America at large. The Statue of Liberty is a Phrygian monument; shrouded in controversy. Language, music, religion, skilled trades, farming, mining, and more were Phrygians works they shared freely with all the primitive tribes. Phrygians were roaming the Earth and organizing human efforts long before ANY country had a name or a boundary. Openly and freely sharing their work was a major part of their downfall; i.e. "you can the animal out of the wild, but you cannot take the wild out of the animal." Phrygians TRIED to bring "civilized" behavior to all of humanity. They were largely successful for thousands of years, but as the population of half-barbarians grew, so did all the negative behaviors of uncivilized "people" the Phrygians tried to civilize. The writings AFTER the FACT of Phrygian influence dilution are NOTHNG but jealousy and cover up to try and give credit to the egomaniacal "leaders" of those who followed in the ways of the Phrygians. Phrygi literally means FREE MEN.

The Phrygians were virtually everywhere in ancient times. America is a perverted remake of ancient Phrygia. Sparta was a perversion of Phrygian everything. Phrygians started "NATURE RELIGION," which was turned into Christianity; modified with primitive paganism. Phrygians migrated out of Northern Africa, they were in Sumer, Egypt, the Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, virtually EVERYWHERE, BEFORE ANY county, satrap, or country/city HAD A BORDER OR A NAME; this is key to understanding how societies of humans take credit for their modifications of the works of others. Phrygians were the parents and great grand parents, brothers, sisters, cousins" of the Sea People (Aegeans), Hittites, Trojans, Armenians, Urartu, Syrians, Macedonians, Nigerians, Galatians, Phoenicians, Philistines, Lydians, Dorians, Romans, Babylonians, Palestinians, Persians, "Greeks," and on and on and on. The Greeks saw them as being half divine. Phrygia had NO borders for perhaps thousands of years. They taught tribes of savages that incest was NOT a good thing. The Phrygians mixed their DNA with the savages for several decades or longer, brought people together, and taught savages how do refine metals, cut stone, build cities, build with carpentry, make jewelry, weave rugs, cloth & carpets, make swords/helmets; how to train, ride, and race horses, make wagons, chariots, plows; how to farm, manage herds of cattle, sheep; build ships, make music, cook, and virtually everything else. MOST ancient tribes wanted to be related to the Phrygians. ZEUS was the FIRST politician to betray the Phrygians on a large scale. This is well documented, but the story has been severely plagiarized and falsified. Current time writers of Phrygian history ONLY have piecemeal plagiarized BIASED renditions of primitive writing in primitive hard to translate "scrolls. The Phrygians openly shared everything; and everything became perverted by the growing populations. MOST tribes WANTED a relationship with the Phrygians. Some say the Phrygians were/are the "lost tribe of Judah," however they existed BEFORE Judah existed. The Hebrews, Greeks, and many other tribes were raging with jealousy of the Phrygians, pretty much like how the rest of the world is fed up with American (Spartan like) "pride" today. The Phrygians were Introvert dominant (soul searchers). America is extrovert (worldly "status" possession) dominant. The Phrygians made virtually every mistake America is making now; a situation that grew out of "mixing people's and cultures" to try and FORM ONE family of humanity. Allies of the Phrygians (Armenians, a small group of them) BETRAYED the Phrygians to the Cimmerians, thinking the Cimmerians would reward them, which never happened. The Cimmerians were barbarians who focused on perpetuating primitive traditions; like MANY cultures still do today. The Phrygians were conservative and liberal, they were on both sides of the Trojan war; which was over taxes on shipped in goods that were distributed "worldwide" on the Phrygian Royal Road, which began just south of Troy and extended to nearby Babylon, and on to Rome. Sex rights with Helen of Troy was a just a diversion theory to explain the Trojan TAX WAR to peasants. Phrygians were reduced to slavery around 10 A.D. but their influences continued to spread for over another 150 years; and is barely visible today. Phrygian slaves sold for the most money, were the most desired because they could do so many things; and they were humble and respectful. This writer is personally reliving the destruction of a perverted Phrygia all over again in America. The Phrygians big mistake was trying to "convert" ALL people into ONE nation, a plan that was in 5th gear until Zeus (extrovert egomaniac) betrayed his first cousin Tantalus; an action that set humanity BACK over 1,000 years. The egomania self-righteous perversion of Zeus and his gang is IN CONTROL of the government of America today, and the government in most countries. The Phrygians NEVER should have allowed certain tribes of people to "live" in Phrygia. Alexander did make a pass through Phrygia and took revenge on the remnants of some tribes the Phrygians allowed to settle in Phrygia; with whom the Macedonians had a conflict. Macedonians and Phrygians, and Ionians, had long standing ally/family relationships and were NOT enemies in any war. Phrygians were a legion in the BOTH armies in the battle of Troy. Phrygians and Persians were also family, and Phrygians joined forces with Xerxes in the destruction of Sparta; which was a Phrygian built society FOR their Greek allies; who perverted the foundation and essence of the work that made Sparta. History is overflowing with speculation about many things that have been diluted with lies, myths, slander, pride, jealousy, and other human characteristics.

Phrygia was NOT "conquered" by Ionia or Macedonia, they were all family and allies/trade partners. After the Phrygians were betrayed by another group of jealous family/allies, the Ionians drove the invaders (Cimmerians) out of Phrygia, and were paid a fee to protect the peaceful Phrygians. Alexander DID travel through Phrygia and war with tribes the Phrygians had given refuge (a very common practice for the Phrygians) to "settle unfinished business" of Macedonian "pride." Phrygia, Persia, Ionia, Doria., Thrace, Troy, etc etc and Macedonia were allies for over a thousand years and never had a conflict. Phrygians DID have a military, but it was NOT like the Macedonia's or Sparta's militaries. Phrygians were also allies with Assyrians. The Phrygian army was very large. Rivals would see they were seriously outnumbered; and would negotiate PEACE rather than fight, and GAINED greatly from the peace negotiations; i.e. Phrygians offered organization and skilled trades, AND entertainment to all the ancient tribes. Their history has been mutilated by self-righteous arrogant "modern day" Trojan/Spartan/American pride and vanity. Phrygians were legions in the armies of Alexander and Xerxes; and Thracians, Aegean's, and many others.

It was said of the Phrygians; "they would rather play music and dance" (as compared to conquering other tribes.) America has an immigration policy that is very similar to what Phrygian practiced; and the practice led to their downfall. Today, "scholars" only have remnants of re-written primitive writings to use as a means of interpreting the past. ALL history is written with an abundant share of guesswork and biased misinformation. The world will NEVER know what the Phrygians brought to humanity; and THEIR "key to wisdom" is just now re-surfacing as a way to find what the world needs. Zeus and his gang of perverts destroyed the efforts of Tantalus to "share" the "food of the GODS" with the masses, and for over 3,000 years, the masses have been worshipping the acts of Zeus.

There is NO ONE TODAY from any college anywhere on Earth who can piece together the history of Phrygia with more accuracy than myself. If YOU think differently, let me know about YOUR heritage, and I will clarify your misconceptions in the same manner as the "educated" scholars have re-written Phrygian history for the 500th time; to try and make themselves “look and sound” intelligent.

The research I published in 1991 provides the foundation for the course of actions humanity has employed for centuries. Journal of Psychological Type, Volume 21, 1991. Where does ALL the conflict in the world begin? With personality type and a lack of consciousness (society today is more interested in the worldly possession of things that eventually are turned into dust, from where they came.

21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)~ Joseph Paul Freije (Phrygi) passed down word of mouth family history. 05:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)2603:800C:2200:4874:9DD9:24B6:9F54:8DB (talk) Please see WP:OR and WP:FORUM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.45.222 (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Possible connection

In Vedas, A tribe called Bhrigu tribe is defined as one of the tribes which went west from saraswati basin after the Epochal Dasrajna Battle. Could it be connected to this Phrygian or Bhrygian People? Is there some connection to it as defined by modern-day scholars like Subhash Kak, Shrikant Talageri?Vizads Jha (talk) 06:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

No. There is no scholarship to support that, but more importantly, what you are discussing is the topic, rather than Reliable Sources to help improve the article. See the top of every article Talk Page for this rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.45.222 (talk) 03:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)