Talk:Kabul Province

Demographics of Kabul province

The population of Kabul province in 2006 was roughly 2,425,067. Here is a quote from Kabul' Provincial Profile - MRRD

"Around 19% of the population of Kabul lives in rural districts while 81% lives in urban areas. Around 51% of the population is male and 49% is female. Pashtu is spoken by around sixty percent of the population and Dari is spoken by around forty percent. A small number of people located in 5 villages speaks Pashaie."

[1]

Lets use the official numbers and percentages in wikipedia (Ketabtoon (talk) 17:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC))

This estimate of the number of speakers is not based on an official census. Thus, the crediblity of this estimate is not more than the credibility of other estimates by other organizations (and it is less credible, compared to the academic sources). Alefbe (talk) 14:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I willl quote user Bejnar in here:

"If you dispute the data about the languages spoken, and their percentages, please provide citations to reliable published sources, do not just change the data. At the present (2 August 2009) the data on languages that appears in the article is properly cited to a provincial report of the government of Afghanistan, which is based on data from their Central Statistics Office and the UNFPA."

How can an academic source be more credible than a UN+Afghan Government source? You are willing to trust the estimates given by an author of a book or a news agency, but not a governmnet organization? If you can find a much more reliable and accurate source, than we can discuss it here. (Ketabtoon (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC))

References

POV: History

"On November 12, 2001, America finally took over Kabul City, and the Taliban forces fled from the city. Kabul was under a new Regime now, free from all the terror and war which destructed it for 20 years. Kabul is now in a Re-construction Era with new buildings, schools, universities and a new Government and is under the control of the new Afghan Government and the US Troops."

There is way too much personal bias in this statement. To describe a city which has been so horrifically decimated (it used to be a productive and modern place) by US troops as "free from all the terror and war" is absurd.

There is a lot of personal bias all over the article, not just in this statement, but I find this statement to be the most objectionable and offensive. I'm tagging it with a POV, to allow the main contributors (esp. whoever originally wrote it) to re-write. If it isn't changed or if no-one responds, I'll come back in a few days and spend some time writing it to be as objective and neutral as possible. For now I'm just going to fix the spelling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qirex (talk • contribs) of 10.10.2005

Population figures

Who is changing the statistic of the population box? In Aims it clearly states that most of those districts are majority Pashtun and Pashtun province. I advice you people to put on your glasses and read better.--The preceding comment was made by IP editor 209.202.115.133 at 14:25, 23 November 2007 (UCT)

I restored the UNHCR figures for Khaki Jabbar District, and others, that had been vandalized by Anoshirawan on 26 July 2007[2]. --Bejnar (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent edit

I have reverted the edits by User:Kingturtle because they were falsifying the attached sources. The source says: "... The Majority Ethnic Group in Kabul is Tajik, other groups include Hazara, Pashtuns, Turkmen, Uzbek, Baloch. ..." [3] Tājik (talk) 03:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

I reverted a user who is adding distorted percentages which are not sourced, and removing sourced percentages. [4] 119.152.247.228 (talk) 05:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Now the user didn't add the (unsourced) distorted percentages, but deliberately removed the sourced percentages. [5] 119.152.247.15 (talk) 09:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Since you are not a registered user I put back the demographics that Tajik put up because it is more neutral than your edits.--Inuit18 (talk) 21:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted your last edit for deleting sourced materials.

PS: An un-registered user is very welcome to contribute to wikipedia. There is a reason why wikipedia has enabled that function. Eventhough it is a good idea to use a registered username. (Ketabtoon (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC))

Yes, but since you agreed that Tajik's edits are neutral in this article we will keep his version of the demographic section of this article. If you disagree with the current version then you are contradicting yourself. And please stop calling my edits vandalism when you are well aware that I haven't anything new or unsourced in this article.--Inuit18 (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The source [provided http://www.mrrd.gov.af/nabdp/Provincial%20Profiles/Kabul%20PDP%20Provincial%20profile.pdf] clearly states that Pashto spoken by 60% of the population while Dari is spoken by the remaining 40% of the population. In that case, Pashtuns make up more than 60% of the population because among the Dari speakers, there are a lot of Pashtuns who speak Dari as their mother tongue.

The fact that you have deleted sourced material is clear vandalism. (Ketabtoon (talk) 22:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC))

your edits stay but I added this phrase in the paragraph

"followed by Persian-speaking Tajiks and Hazaras who are the majority in Kabul City."--Inuit18 (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Kabul city is ethnically varied, with large populations of all major ethnic groups in Afghanistan. The broader province however is dominated by Pashtun and Tajik groups. Kabul province’s population, excluding Kabul city, is around 500,000 people, with the majority (some 70% speaking Pashto has their first language, and 30% speaking Dari).http://cpau.org.af/manimages/publications/Kabul_Conflict_Analysis_Mar09_Final.pdf182.180.61.170 (talk) 08:31, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

NPS tribal map

I have reverted an edit by talk. When the government of Afghanistan has been sourced, we cannot add other estimates even if they are sourced. NPS can be used as a source only and only if there are not government or other reliable sources (like the United Nations) are not available. We have to keep in mind that NPS is an ordinary NGO. Again "Just because a source is reliable does not mean it should be included." Wikipedia:Source#Sources. (Ketabtoon (talk) 02:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

There has never been a national census taken by the government of Afghanistan. so, even though it is from the government it is still approximations and estimates. Since both NPS and Afghanistan's government provides only estimates we should include both. your removal is against Wikipedia and it is your POV. NPS and other sources should be sourced because Afghanistan's government is not a neutral reference and these NGOs mostly have neutral views towards Afghanistan's ethnic groups.--Inuit18 (talk) 02:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You are forgetting that the sources provided by the government of Afghanistan are the work of the government of Afghanistan and United Nations (UNHCR). There are hundreds of NGOs and other sources who have their own stats. We cannot add all the sources. Reliable or not, estimates provided by the Government of Afghanistan and the United Nations about the population of Afghanistan are the only official sources. We have already been over this discussion. You have to remember that NPS is an ordinary NGO. (Ketabtoon (talk))

If you still insist, than you are welcome to bring another neutral member and show them the so called tribal maps from NPS. That specific map totally contradicts other sources. By the way, http://www.cso.gov.af is CSO's web site. It was dead for a long time, but it is back again. In case you need it for future reference. (Ketabtoon (talk) 02:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

Another major problem with the Tribal maps provided by the NPS. If you guys haven't noticed, it clearly writes "Kabul Province Tribal Map" & "Predominant Tribes by districts". Tribal Map, is not even a proper ethnographic map of the districts. These tribal maps are drawn to show which tribe dominates a district. While they have divided Pashtuns in tens of different tribes, they have put all Tajiks under one name. Now obviously there are more Tajiks in some of these districts compare to Wardak or Ghilzai Pashtuns. Wardak and Ghilzai Pashtuns are not the only Pashtun tribes living in these districts, but there are tens of other tribes as well. There are tribal maps for few other provinces as well; Helmand, Farah, Kandahar, Laghman. For example lets look at Laghman Province's tribal map. They have labeled the following tribal groups "Ashkunu, Spin Nasir Khel, Safi Pashtun, Pashtun, Sulaiman Khel, Tajik, Kata Nuristani". In that list they have color codes for Pashtun and Tajik ethnic groups, however, they have separate color codes for Spin Nasir Khel, Safi and Sulaimankhel Pashtuns. All these 3 tribes are Pashtuns as well.

These are not ethnic but more like tribal maps. The worst part is that any one can interpret them in any way they want. (Ketabtoon (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

It would be a good idea to quote this, "Material contained herein is made available for the purpose of peer review and discussion and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense." Source. (Ketabtoon (talk) 19:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

NPS did not make this map. they made this map using different sources and they did use AIMS and a source from the US State department. You are clearly using a subjective argument and you have been changing the articles based on your POV. you use NPS for one article and then remove it in another article clearly shows your bias.--Inuit18 (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Like I have mentioned before, NPS should only be used when other sources are not available. At the moment, in any article (provincial & district) where MRRD/CSO/UN/AIMS can be sourced for demographics and population related content, it has been sourced. When sources like the government of Afghanistan (with the help of United Nations) is available for demographics related information, than there is no need to use a small time NGO as a reference. You should also try to read my last 2 replies to this topic (before this one). They are not ethnic but tribal maps. You should also try to read "Material contained herein is made available for the purpose of peer review and discussion and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense.".

First of all, the maps provided by NPS are tribal maps not ethnic maps. Even if they were ethnic maps, then you can hardly find another reliable source which will support those claims. All other sources go against NPS' map. For example, lets take a look at a real ethnographic map of Afghanistan (it is a large map with clear provincial boundries) provided by the "Institute For The Study of War" The Map. (Ketabtoon (talk) 00:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC))

Response to Third Opinion Request:

Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Kabul Province and have no known association with the editors or subject matter involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: Though this dispute is over the Naval Postgraduate School map, it is clearly a continuation of the dispute at Demographics of Kabul province earlier on the talk page. Ultimately, this is a dispute as to whether the Afghanistan government's information is more reliable or the Naval Postgraduate School's information is more reliable. Academic sources vs. government sources: Ketabtoon's repeated assertion that government-sourced information is to be preferred over all other sources is plainly contradicted by Wikipedia policy, which states that "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources," see WP:SOURCES. Government sources are in most cases held to be less reliable than academic sources, except when they are peer-reviewed (see various discussions at [6], nicely summarized here). NPS map summary inappropriate: Having said that, however, I would also note that even though the NPS map appears to be a reliable academic source and may (or may not, per Ketabtoon's arguments in the paragraph beginning with "Another major problem with the Tribal maps") be an accurate indication of the demographics of each of the districts, it is not a reliable indicator of the demographics of the province as a whole, which is what is at issue in the article. (Why? Simple math: Let's say that you have four districts A-D in a province and districts A-C are each 95% Tajik and district D is 70% Pashtun. Though 75% of the districts would have a predominantly Tajik population, Pashtuns could still be the majority group in the province if, for example, districts A-C each have 1,000 people in them - 2,850 Tajiks and 150 Pashtuns - and district D has 10,000 people - 3,000 Tajiks and 7,000 Pashtuns, so that in the province there are 5,850 Tajiks and 7,150 Pashtuns.) For that reason, I do not think that inclusion of the map summary is appropriate in the context in which Inuit18's initial edit (diff) presents it. Reliability of government demographic data: That leaves the question of whether the government data is a reliable source for the demographics of the province. Alefbe says that "the crediblity of [the government] estimate is not more than the credibility of other estimates by other organizations (and it is less credible, compared to the academic sources)," but does not identify the academic sources to which he refers. Inuit18 says, "Afghanistan's government is not a neutral reference." Everyone seems to agree that the government data is an estimate and is not based on a census. My opinion is that unless the government data can be shown to be biased or fraudulent, with such bias or fraud substantiated by something more than sheer distrust or prejudice, that it ought to be sufficient to stand as a reliable source here (especially if, but not only if, it is accepted by the United Nations, but I do not know if it is or is not so accepted, or for what purpose) until and unless it is contradicted by academic sources, but only if it is made clear in the article that the data is an estimate. Thus my opinion is that when the page prohibition expires that the phrase, "Like in the rest of Afghanistan, no exact population numbers are available. The Afghan Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation & Development estimates that" should remain in the article, but the sentence, "However, the Naval Postgraduate School estimates that 10 districts are dominated by Tajiks and 3 districts by Ghilzai Pashtuns, while Kabul City has a mixed population.[2]" should be removed. Finally, it is also my opinion that if this dispute continues, that the reliability question ought to be posed at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 21:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

First of all I would like to thank TRANSPORTERMAN for taking his time and helping us solve this particular issue. We have tried to include the word "estimate" in some of the articles. However, we have not been very clear about the estimate and its source (we have sourced the information, but we haven't written the name of the source in the article). I like the idea of adding the following sentence "Like in the rest of Afghanistan, no exact population numbers are available. The Afghan Ministry of Rural Rehabilitation & Development estimates that" or something very similar to the article. This way it will be more clear to the readers that no official census has taken place and the information provided are only estimates provided by the government of Afghanistan. (Ketabtoon (talk) 05:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC))

Population

Can you please stop removing sourced information from the Kabul Province article.Ahmed shahi (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

It is you who is removing sourced and accurate information. Unlike Kabul, there should be no dispute over Kabul Province, because there is no urban or metropolitan areas that you are confusing the definitions of. The CSO is completely direct and specific about the figure: Kabul Province's population as of 2009 : 3.6 million. That's it! While you are adding sources from previous years such as 2006, 2007 and 2008.

I think you don't have enough knowledge about how to report the statistics. In statistical issue, you always write the latest data available. You don't go citing the outdated data and then writing in the article: "......is some where between 2.5 to around 3.5 million." This is absurd and scientifically wrong; you should be specific about the data (you should not say between this number and that number, unless the source says so). Go ask any editor and he/she will give you the same response. Ariana (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Mediation

Following a recent thread at WP:ANI, I have offered to mediate in a dispute between editors.

I consider that the mediation process is open to everyone. In particular, it is open to editors who have not previously been involved in this dispute, and to editors who have never edited this article.

I will post this message at the talk pages of Kabul and Kabul Province, at WP:ANI, and on the talk pages of the editors who appear to be involved already.

You may, if you wish, re-post this message elsewhere. If you choose to do so I strongly recommend you post this message and not a new message. I would also strong recommend you read and understand WP:CANVAS before doing so!

The mediation process will take place at User:TFOWR/Kabul.

Thank you! TFOWR^{This flag once was red} 15:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Geological text

I have removed this from the geography section of the article as it makes no sense: In the Silurian time, at the end of ice era, the icebergs are melted gradually and the territory of this region was poured by water under heavy raining. However someone with some knowledge of the geological evolution of the city/region might wish to put something in its place. cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

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This page needs MAJOR updates.

Due to recent events of Taliban, this page requires a lot of updates, as it is nowhere near present day. MitochondriaIsThePowerhouse (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)