Talk:Tabbouleh

External link relevant?

Cucumber is a very common and very important ingredient in tabbouleh... especially in Lebanon. This needs to be added to the list of ingredients.

I removed an external link to "Kosher Tabouli recipe at chabad.org", with the edit comment "unnecessary external (spam?) link". User:PinchasC restored it with the comment "why is it unnecessary?". First of all, queries like this should, I think, be asked on the Talk page rather than to a revert presuming an unsatisfactory answer. But here is my answer:

There is already a recipe for tabouli in the article. Unless the linked-to recipe has some claim to being a particularly good recipe, I am not sure what its value is. The link calls it a "Kosher" tabouli recipe, but tabouli is inherently kosher since it is vegetarian, so there is no added value here. The linked-to site is not a specialty site on cooking in general, or Lebanese cooking in particular, but in fact a site promoting a particular religious position. If the reader just wants some tabouli recipe without any specific qualities, it is easy enough to search for it on the Web. So I don't see the value of linking it. --Macrakis 21:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

It has a value in it being a different recipe than the the one listed on wikipedia. The recipe given on the external link would be more in line with those used by the Jewish community. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 05:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

There are lots of different recipes for tabbouleh. We surely aren't going to link to all of them. As for this particular recipe, the proportions are slightly different, and it doesn't include allspice or hot peppers. That's about it -- and I think it is right that those ingredients be marked as optional. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that "the Jewish community" has more of a standard recipe than anyone else, or for that matter that there is a Jewish community. Indeed, the linked-to site is Hasidic, an Ashkenazi group which I am pretty sure has no tradition of tabbouleh-making. Should we also include a Japanese Buddhist or Californian vegetarian recipe for tabbouleh? --Macrakis 16:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That would be interesting to see how different cultures modified the recipe to fit their eating habits. Asy out pointed out the site linked has less spices which is typical of Ashkenazic food. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 17:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

A study of variants may well be interesting, but I hardly think that one recipe on a Hasidic site constitutes good evidence. I would guess, in fact, that it is just an individual variant by some cook who happens to be Hasidic. I wouldn't call the version of tabboulleh I make at home the "Greek variant". I will try to get some evidence of the range of variation of tabbouleh and put it in the article. --Macrakis 19:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Tabouli vs. Tabbouleh

Article is currently under 'tabouli'. I believe it should be moved to 'tabbouleh'. Tabbouleh is more common (300k vs. 200k hits on Google) and also is more faithful to the original Arabic. Comments? --Macrakis 23:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I would agree. I am fairly new to Wikipedia, but there should be a way that both 'tabbouleh' and 'tabouli' could be used as search terms. Maybe change the article name to 'tabbouleh' while still allowing the search term 'tabouli' to be used. --User:LongWalkShortPier 26 May 2006 (EST)

I also agree. I live in the Middle East, and in transliteration it always has a "tabouleh"/"tabbouleh" spelling.

I also think the image needs to be changed, or there needs to be clarity of East vs West tabbouleh. I was quite surprised to find out when I first moved here that tabbouleh here is nearly all chopped parsley, hardly any wheat is used. I have had tabbouleh in Oman, the UAE, Bahrain, Jordan, Egypt and Kuwait, and it has always been the nearly-all-parsley variety. Back in the UK, it was often called "cracked wheat salad" and there was barely any green to be seen. (Istara 22:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC))

I agree. I was quite surprised to see this pic. Tabbouleh is green to me. This pic in the article looks gross.

Where I live, markets sell it as Tabouli & it's always made with quinoa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.167.21 (talk) 06:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Relocation

Since this is almost a recipe, i.e. there are ingredients listed, I think that it should be considered as such and relocated to the Wikimedia Cookbook at Wikibooks.--203.184.26.176 23:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Tabouli ingredients

Tabouli in its source, the Middle East, is mint not parsley. Two sources, basic cookbooks by indigenous cooks, one from Lebanon and one from Syria, restrict the greens to mint. Living in Lebanon I con confirm that parsley was NOT an ingredient in the homes of any of my Lebanese friends or in the restaurants I visited. In other places, particularly in the U.S., parsley is common, but in most cases maybe up to half of the total greens, except in 'modern' salad listings where parsley may be 3/4 of the greens. --Dumarest 19:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Either way, HOW can people EAT that much mint and/or parsley? Those are both garnishes meant to be eaten in tiny amounts or not eaten at all.. actually consuming large amounts of them makes me puke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 04:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's because the parsley used in the middle east is different from parsley found in other regions. The middle-eastern kind has bigger leaves, and has a remarkably milder flavor. Regarding the mint, I find it difficult to imagine that mint alone is the main ingredient, because mint has strong flavor (even the middle eastern kind). At least, I've never seen it so. I'm Syrian by the way. 72.188.3.54 (talk) 19:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, mint is not the only ingredent in Tabouli, parsley is used. I am Syrian, but I am supprsied that mint might be listed as the only ingredent. 173.69.212.161 (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Levantine vs. Arab

Should we be calling Tabbouleh "Levantine", "Arabic", or "Middle Eastern Arabic"? I see no discussion of this above, despite what our anon friends are saying in their reverts. I am not sure what "Middle Eastern Arabic" as opposed to "Arabic" is supposed to mean-- is this meant to exclude North Africa? In addition to North Africa, I believe that tabbouleh is also not a traditional food of Egypt and the Arabian Peninsula. Of course it can be found there, just as hamburgers can, and just as tabbouleh can be found in Chicago, but I hope we agree that hamburgers shouldn't be called Arabic and tabbouleh shouldn't be called Chicagoan! I will try to find some more solid sources. In the meantime I will not revert the anon's changes. --Macrakis (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Tabouleh IS a dish native to Middle Eastern nations including Iraq (which is not part of the Levant). Further more, the term "Levant" itself is nothing more than a term that attempts to divide people. --24.56.137.185 (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

All the sources I have found point to the Levant/Mashriq/Greater Syria as the home of tabbouleh, both in the sense that it was probably invented their and in the sense that it is usually identified with that region:

Of the Arab countries resulting from the break-up of the Ottoman Empire, the cities of the three countries into which Syria was divided display a degree of cultural homogeneity, sharing food ingredients and styles. In Ottoman times, Aleppo was commercially and culturally the centre of a region comprising southern Anatolia and north-west Iraq (the Mosul province). Their food is to the present day distinguished by common themes. ... Distinctive mezzes have characterized this culture.... Also the now familiar repertoire of the Lebanese retaurant mezze tray of tabbuleh, mutabbal and so on are mostly parts of the general Syrian repertoire, some of it shared with Anatolia. (Sami Zubaida, "National, Communal and Global Dimensions in Middle Eastern Food Cultures" in Sami Zubaida and Richard Tapper, A Taste of Thyme: Culinary Cultures of the Middle East, London and New York, 1994 and 2000, ISBN 1-86064-603-4, p. 35. Zubaida is Iraqi.)

I have heard, in the old days, Baghdadi women and cooks jeer at Syrians...for being very economical with meat: all those salads and pastes that were just being introduced in Iraq, tabbuleh, homus, ... (Zubaida, p. 37; my emphasis)

Tabbouleh...is a great Lebanese favorite (Claudia Roden, A Book of Middle Eastern Food, p. 86 -- Roden is Egyptian, by the way)

...two dishes which indisputably belong to Lebanon and Syria and always adorn the mezze table, namely hummus and tabbouleh... (Anissa Helou, Oxford Companion to Food, s.v. Lebanon and Syria)

...Lebanon (widely perceived as its original home territory)... (Oxford Companion to Food, s.v. tabbouleh)

تبولة‎ (Leb.) a particular salad (Maan Z. Madina, Arabic-English Dictionary of the Modern Literary Language, 1973, s.v. تبل‎) (added 21:08 UTC)

Do you have reliable sources showing anything else? --Macrakis (talk) 18:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the origin, I don't think the lead can simply call it Levantine. This is not a term in "common" usage in the U.S. It sounds old-fashioned or obsolete like refering to the Middle East as the Oriental. I can go out to eat at an Arabic restaraunt or specifically a Iraqi or Lebanese one (where I live, probably a Yemeni one as well, never tried though). But "levantine restaurant" returns zero Google results for Detroit compared to thousands for Lebanese restaurant or Arabic restaurant. Perhaps "Levantine Arabic" would satisfy all sides. Rmhermen (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The term Levantine itself is another creation of the west that attempts to divide the people of the Arab world. It is an offensive word in a sense that at one time wasn't as offensive, such as referring to an African-American as a Negro. --67.80.185.250 (talk) 04:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The origin is clearly limited to the Levant per the sources provided by Macrakis. I've tweaked the text to reflect this. If other users wish to convince the rest of us of the inappropriateness of the term "Levantine", I recommend applying the same time of diligence shown by Macrakis in finding appropriate sources. Until then, I believe both "Arab" and "Levantine" should be mentioned.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The term Levant is obsolete and offensive, what do you not understand? Does one still refer to Asians as Orientals? --24.56.137.185 (talk) 14:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you support your claim with reliable sources, such as articles or dictionary entries? That a term is slightly archaic doesn't automatically mean that it's offensive.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Iraq, in addition to being topographically integral with, is historically, culturally and ethnically closer to the levant states of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine and Israel than anywhere else and there are hundreds of thousands of people from the Mashriq who want our Sykes-Picot imposed countries united, see Greater Syria. Iraq's border lies within 200 miles of the Lebanese coast. It was Ottoman then Franco-British imperial strategy to divide the semitic Mashriq into small states, the same strategy then sees Iraq versus Kuwait, Lebanon versus Syria and the West Bank versus Gaza. Archetypal divide and conquer. 90.196.221.87 (talk) 03:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

And Lebanon versus Lebanon, Iraq versus Iraq, and now Syria versus Syria - how dastardly!

Tabouli is a Mediterranean dish from Lebanon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.123.70 (talk) 11:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Tabouli Fest in Bristow, OK

Tabouli has been a signature product and dish of Oklahoma for several generations now. It is traditionally served as an hor d'oeuvre or starter at steakhouses; usually with smoked meat. In fact, it is so popular that Bristow, Oklahoma has an annual Tabouli Fest celebrating its place in Oklahoma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakeledg (talk • contribs) 06:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting, and this is actually documented on Google (see, e.g., First Annual Tabouli Festival in Bristow (May 2005)). We should try to reflect it in the main article in a way similar to Pelmeni, Pierogi, and Vareniki. --Zlerman (talk) 06:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Israel must be removed

Israel has nothing to do with this dish. WikiProject Israel must be removed. They are stealing Arab foods and claiming it as theirs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.133.89 (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

While I disagree with your conspiracy theory, does anyone have a reason for why it should be kept? It doesn't seem that Israel is mentioned anywhere in the article. ← George ^[talk] 07:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

George I don't think you know what conspiracy theory means, you use this term a lot interchangeably; last time when I spoke about AIPAC and the Zionist lobby in Washington DC, you also used the term conspiracy theory; whereas no serious intelligent political analyst would say that the power of the former is a conspiracy theory. George the Ashkenazim who came who immigrated to Palestine beginning in the 1880's did not eat or make our Eastern Mediterranean food UNTIL they arrived to Palestine and started eating everything the Palestinians were eating; this my friend is a objective fact that can be easily proven. it is not a conspiracy. If you read about the history of European Jewry, you will find that they ate what the Europeans ate. When Jews arrived to Palestine they were baking the round European breads and then later they started making and eating pita bread. What the anonymous user was implying before is that Jewish Israelis are trying to take Eastern Mediterranean foods that were created by the Syrians/Lebanese/Palestinians and trying to claim it as theirs or marketing it as their invention. For example there was a recent controversy over hummus, because Israelis are making hummus and marketing it as an "Israeli" concoction, and naturally the Syrians/Lebanese/Palestinian got angry and are trying to make it illegal in the EU to market hummus as "Israeli".George Al-Shami (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I certainly understand your viewpoint on the issue, but there is a big difference between saying that companies are re-branding local cuisine and implying that Jews are attempting to "steal" it. Whether or not you think that Jews are trying to "steal" your cuisine is really besides the point, however, as I was looking for any input regarding keeping the WikiProject Israel tag in this article. If nobody provides a reason to keep it in the next few days, I'll be removing it. ← George ^[talk] 22:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, nobody has replied with a reason to keep it, and the article doesn't mention Israel, so I've gone ahead and removed the tag. ← George ^[talk] 07:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

What's the deal with arabs? What about the Assyrians/Aramean/Syriac people. They eat this as well and they aren't mentioned. Why say it's arab and not Middle Eastern/Meditteranean?SchnitzelMannGreek. 14:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, most ethnic groups in the region have this dish, so it's better not to attribute it to an ethnolinguistic group. Izzedine (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Its best to attribute it to whomever the reliable sources do. Most of them say its Arab, but I'm sure there are some that also talk about its production and use by other non-Arab groups in the region. We just have to find them and add them. Tiamut^talk 18:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Well, if it's a dish of Lebanese origin, alot of Lebanese don't consider themselves Arabs. Izzedine (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• The Middle Eastern Kitchen calls it "the Arab cracked wheat salad tabbouleh, noting that there is a Turkish version known as ksir. It also says it is traditionally "a mountain dish from the eastern Mediterranean" that "has become one of the most popular Middle Eastern salads." Tiamut^talk 18:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
• Searches for "aramaean" + "tabbouleh" don't bring up anything in google books. Google web has some hits but they seem to be mentions of the words without being related to one another.
• Same result for "assyrian" + "tabbouleh", but I'll keep checking alternate spellings. Tiamut^talk 19:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oh, and "Sryiac" and "tabbouleh" seems to bring up results for "syria" and "tabbouleh" for some strange reason. Obviously these are not synonyms, but google treats them as alt spellings of one another. Tiamut^talk 19:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the region have more relevance than the language? ..because no-one would describe Tajine as an "Arab" dish. Izzedine (talk) 19:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know much how Tajine is described. What I do know is that Tabbouleh is commonly defined as Arab in reliable sources. I think its safe to report that to the reader. In fact, I think we're required to do that per WP:NPOV. Of course if there are references that say it is also something else "Middle Eastern", "Syriac", whatever that may be, we should also report those too. Tiamut^talk 19:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, i've only ever seen Tajine described as Moroccan or North African, same with cous-cous. Similarly it's clear that Tabbouleh is a Levantine dish originating in Lebanon. Language isn't really relevant here though, because "Arab" is anywhere from Mauritania to Oman, but Tabbouleh is a distinctive dish of the Fertile Crescent region. For another example, Tacos are described as "Mexican" and not "Latino". Izzedine (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We need better sourcing for these things in general. I have to run, but will try to look into the matter later. ← George ^[talk] 19:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Misreading source

George Al-Shami recently reverted my edit based on his source, which I'd like to explain. The source cited states that "Tabbouleh is a Lebanese dish, considered by many as the 'national salad'... In Syria and in Lebanon, where the dish originated, it is often eaten by scooping it up in Romaine lettuce leaves." I believe George Al-Shami is misinterpreting this statement - the "where the dish originated" is referring to Lebanon, not both Syria and Lebanon - the part about eating Tabbouleh with lettuce leaves is referring to both. The author would not have written it this way if they had intended mention of the origin to refer to both. Some examples:

• In football and in basketball, a sport played with a round ball, two teams compete in each match. (In this case, "a sport played with a round ball" refers to basketball and only basketball)
• In football and basketball, two sports played with brown balls, two teams compete in each match. (In this case, "two sports both played with brown balls" refers to both football and basketball)

The second word "in" in the first statement makes the separation clear. Hope that clarifies this. ← George ^[talk] 23:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Origin

An editor recently removed mention of tabbouleh's origin in Lebanon, correctly pointing out that the sources were cooking blogs. I've been going through the books to see what supports this claim. Here's what I have so far:

• Arabian Delights: Recipes & Princely Entertaining Ideas from the Arabian Peninsula by Amy Riolo - "Tabbouli originated in Lebanon, where it is known as tabouleh."
• Nueva York: the complete guide to Latino life in the five boroughs by Carolina González, Seth Kugel - "Used to make tabbouleh, a dish of Lebanese origin that is popular in Latin American countries with migrants from the Middle East."
• The artichoke trail: a guide to vegetarian restaurants, organic food stores and farmers' markets throughout the US by James Bernard Frost - "tabbouli (also tabouli; tabbouleh) - A finely chopped Lebanese salad made with bulghur wheat, scallions, tomatoes, mint and parsely."
• Dictionnaire Multilingue de la Cuisine française by Guy Chassagnard - "Tabboule/Tabbouleh - A dish of Lebanese origin made of wheat semolina, parsely, mint, onions and chopped tomatoes, seasoned with olive oil and lemon juice."
• Cruising Cuisine: Fresh Food from the Galley by Kay Pastorius - "...tabbouleh, a refreshing salad of Lebanese origin that keeps well and uses both limes and fresh mint."

Thoughts? ← George ^[talk] 06:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing is George, is that Syrian food has always been promoted as "Lebanese food" because they are the same, that's why you hardly ever find "Syrian" restaurants but you find hundreds of "Lebanese" restaurants, alot of Lebanese restaurants are run by Syrians, and i've got a source for this. Thus, alot of Lebanese and Syrian cuisine gets attributed to just Lebanon, when it belongs to both, and you have to remember that Lebanon was a Syrian province for thousands of years until the French carved it out ~89 years ago. I think Tabbouleh should be described in the article as "originating in Lebanon" but being a "Levantine and Iraqi dish". Izzedine (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. Lebanon was a French colony, and before that part of the Ottoman empire, alongside Syria, and as part of the same state at times, for at least a few hundreds of years before independence. But I do agree with your key point, that it should be described as a Levantine dish originating in Lebanon (and an Iraqi dish too if sources support that... is Iraq outside of the Levant?). ← George ^[talk] 20:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Iraq is sometimes included in the Levant, but usually the description is "Mesopotamia and the Levant", with the Levant strictly designating the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean, but of course Mesopotamia merges with the Levant along the northern Euphrates (hence the Fertile Crescent), which makes Syria both a Levantine and Mesopotamian state. Also, while there are some, there are not very many dishes in Levantine cuisine that are not also part of Iraqi cuisine, and vice versa. Indeed, there is a great degree of culinary homogeneity across the whole former Ottoman region. Izzedine (talk) 08:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we should definitely mention the dish's strong association with Lebanon, and that some sources indicate it originated there. As its traditionally a mountain dish from the eastern Mediterranean, it should have strong Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian associations. When we find references to the others too, we can add them. I should note I've found a number of sources that describe it as Arab, and added a couple of them to the article as well. Tiamut^talk 06:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen numerous sources that refer to it as an Arab dish too, or state that it's popular in Syria, or among Palestinians. I'm only able to find sources that say it's origins are rooted in Lebanon though (or, when described more broadly, the Middle East). I haven't seen any sources that claim it originated anywhere else yet. It's similar to baklava I think, which has Greek (or I guess Turkish, according to the Wikipedia) origins, but is made and enjoyed throughout the Middle East (including Lebanon). There's a difference between where a dish is considered to be "from" originally and where it is eaten today. ← George ^[talk] 10:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Cookbooks and restaurant guides are generally not very reliable sources for food history. See the Wikiproject page (which I admit I mostly wrote) on sources for food articles. According to various reliable sources, like Sami Zubaida, "National, Communal and Global Dimensions in Middle Eastern Food Cultures" in Sami Zubaida and Richard Tapper, A Taste of Thyme: Culinary Cultures of the Middle East, London and New York, 1994 and 2000, ISBN 1-86064-603-4, most dishes identified as Lebanese are actually part of the larger category of Levantine cuisine. Many things which really should be called Levantine are called Lebanese simply because many of the emigrants from the region were Christian and from (what is now) Lebanon. Unless we have more solid sources tracing tabbouleh specifically to the modern state of Lebanon (less than a century old!), the evidence we have shows that it is Levantine in general, not Lebanese in particular. --macrakis (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip macrakis. Unfortunately, the handful of those sources that are available in an electronic format don't appear to mention tabbouleh period, let alone where it originated. I can only find one of the sources on your list that even mentions tabbouleh, and it too identifies it as from Lebanon: "Like many items on the standard Lebanese restaurant menu, [tabbouleh] was born in the mountain region of Zahle, in the Bekaa Valley of Lebanon... The reputation of the local mountain-village foods [restaurants in Zahle] offered, of which tabbouleh was one of the jewels, spread far and wide and became a national institution."[1] I live across the street from a library, so I'll see if I can find any of the other books you've listed in a hardback format. I don't think that the age of the dish has any real bearing, as there's no reason we can't say something like "tabbouleh originated in the area that comprises modern day Lebanon", if it can be properly sourced. The same issue arises when discussing anything about Lebanon more than sixty years old, and that's how we generally deal with it. ← George ^[talk] 20:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Removal of references to all things Arab

Izzedine has removed a number of references to Arab cuisine and Arab salad in the article. These were all supported by references, and so I restored them. Now he is repeatedly removing a wikilink to Arab salad, using shifting and unspecified rationales. Could others please discuss whether linking to Arab salad in the external links section here is appropriate or inappropriate? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 13:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, you have misinterpreted my actions, i'm not deleting references to all things Arab, the information is already there. Why should a Levantine dish be presented as a pan-Arab dish? I don't see this with Maghrebi dishes. Cuisine is regional and translinguistic. Izzedine (talk) 13:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You replaced Arab cuisine with Levantine cuisine, even though the source cited says "Arab cuisine". You removed the wikilink to Arab salad. You removed the description of the salad as an "Arab cracked wheat salad". Those are just three examples. Please do not continue doing that. If you want to remove material that is properly referenced or modify its meaning, you should discuss those changes on the talk page.

Further, calling something "Arab" does not imply that is is "pan-Arab". We write according to what reliable sources say, not what we think is the best description for something. Tiamut^talk 13:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I replaced Arab cuisine with Levantine cuisine because Levantine cuisine is a subset of Arab cuisine, and is more specific. I removed the "See also" link to Arabic salad because it linked to a page that was recently refashioned by yourself with a dubious Arab-centric focus. I removed the description of the salad as an "Arab cracked-wheat salad" because it was superfluous and didn't fit with its placement. To reference something as "Arab", in place of a regional term, by definition implies it is pan-Arab. I didn't intend to hurt anyones feelings. Izzedine (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The source says "Arab cuisine" not "Levantine cuisine", so your edit goes against what the source says. The page on Arab salad and its supposed problems should be discussed at that talk page. Wikilinking to it from Tabbouleh is logical given that it is an "Arab cracked wheat salad". That definition is not in any superfluous, since as you point out, Arab and Levantine have different meanings. I don't erase references to Levantine simply because it can be considered a sub-set of Arab cuisine, and you should not erase references to Arab cuisine, simply because you think Levantine is more specific. We represent what reliable sources have to say, not what we think is WP:TRUTH. Tiamut^talk 14:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Well if the source says Arab cuisine then it's not a particularly good source, because Tabbouleh is a native Levantine dish, as everybody knows. Cuisine is regional and multiethnic, the Turks, Armenians and Greeks are as familar with this dish as the Maghrebis. The comparison you made about not substituting "Arab" in place of "Levantine" isn't a good one, one term increases relevance, the other decreases it. Concensus is clear that the dish originates in Lebanon, and the Lebanese of all "Arabs", have the weakest affiliation with Arab identity. Izzedine (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The sources that say it is Arab are far more reliable than those describing it as "Levantine". They are books on the history of cuisine, rather than links to websites. Tiamut^talk 15:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Um, it seems to me that the opposite is the case. The most serious source we have found so far is Zubaida, who clearly says that tabbouleh is "part of the general Syrian repertoire" and talks about "the three countries into which Syria was divided". So he is clearly talking about the historic Syria, a.k.a. the Levant (which includes parts of modern Iraq, Turkey, Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian Territories). --macrakis (talk) 17:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand that the adjective "Levantine" is one word used to describe that region. Another adjective frequently used to describe that region and one a little broader as well in "Arab", which is why it appears in most reliable sources discussing the dish as well. I have never removed information describing the dish the Levantine. I have only objected to removal of the adjective "Arab". It is as valid an adjective as any other, including Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, Palestinian, etc. All of these terms should be represented in our article. Tiamut^talk 17:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Levantine

I reverted 66.65.184.28 edit claiming it was lebanese instead of Levantine. Sources at the page also mention Palestine and Syria and the IPs edit did not have an explanation to the change or any new sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Lebanese pride: a salad

Guys this is really pathetic. I don't know why you keep vandalizing these pages to say that the dishes originate from Lebanon. These are eastern Mediterranean dishes, not Lebanese. The world is much larger than Lebanon if you ever noticed. I just feel sorry for you; you must be really miserable to keep having fights over a salad. I sympathize with you and I am not going to change it, but the reader should have no doubt that this is wrong.HD86 (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The article says under "Regional variations:"

Traditionally a mountain dish from Lebanon, and one of the Lebanese main dishes, it has become one of the most popular salads in the non-Persian side of the Middle East.

This is a very weird (actually it is stupid) statment to make. I opened the provided reference but I couldn't find where it says so. It is not there. This is why I always say that Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information— even if it is refenced.HD86 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The source "The Middle Eastern Kitchen" says its from Syria, not mountain dish from Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Jadraad, I reverted your edit since you removed sourced information about its origin without explanation. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

80.81.159.21, the source says that its traditionally from Syria, not Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

27.32.42.246, the source says that its traditionally from Syria, not Lebanon, you also changed the language of the pronunciation without explanation. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You are talking to them as if they care what the source says.--HD86 (talk) 17:51, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

• The problem is that some sources say it is from Syria, and some sources say it is from Lebanon (last year, the sources cited said Lebanon). Neither really makes much sense, as both countries are only about 70 years old, and the dish is probably older than either. To address the issue, and hopefully to stop people from edit warring over this in the future, I've changed the beginning of this sentence to say: "Originally from the mountains between Lebanon and Syria..." That phrasing is based on this source, which states: "Hailing from the mountains between Lebanon and Syria, tabbouleh is primarily a parsley salad." ← George ^talk 22:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The sources that say "Syria" do not mean the current Syria but they mean Greater Syria, which included Lebanon. You can simply say "from Syria and Lebanon." The phrasing you chose is a bit odd, because the "mountains between Syria and Lebanon" are a rather small geographic area and I don't know how could they know that the dish originated fro there exactly.--HD86 (talk) 07:58, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

world record

This page, which I assume is an official Guinness page though that needs checking, says that the tabbouleh record is held by Shefa Amr with a date later than the Beirut date. Zero^talk 23:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I added it before seeing your note, linking that same site. Tiamut^talk 21:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Template:Request quotation

Please a quotation from either of the two sources used after the text "In the Arab world, particularly Syria, Lebanon, and among Palestinian Arabs, it is usually served as part of a meze...." This is being requested in order to verify that the source refers to "Palestinian Arabs" and doesn't use different terminology. (Pages 252–254 of Clifford Wright's book don't load for me.)—Biosketch (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Provided in the article now. The source actually says Palestine. An IP changed it to Palestinian Arabs without consulting the sources. I've restored the correct designation. Tiamut^talk 21:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Still, using Wikipedia's voice for saying that Palestine is part of the Arab world is a problem since most of Palestine is Israel and Israel's not part of the Arab world. The article needs to attribute the claim to the author directly or, preferably, we can agree that Palestine in this context can be divided between Israel as a separate class and the Palestinian territories as part of the Arab world, as it is essentially in the real world. Ordinarily we'd argue about this kind of thing for pages on end, but I don't see that that needs to be the case here.—Biosketch (talk) 11:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

"Most of Palestine is Israel," can you explain? -asad (talk) 11:58, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, see the map at the top of Palestine. Most of what's green there is internationally recognized as Israel.—Biosketch (talk) 12:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. The source is an rs on mediterranean cuisine, particularly arab cuisine. Other sources also describe the dish as Arab and as being popular in Palestine. There is therefore no need for attribution as this is not an exceptional clsim. Tiamut^talk 20:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Use of the given ISBN

Basically a curiosity. What is the intended use of the link to the ISBN given in the references section? As it exists, I get an error, not recognized. Is it intended to give a source to obtain the book? or a text section that describes the book? or what?? (Dumarest (talk) 19:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC))

Its supposed to be a link where you can obtain the book, but every book has two separate ISBNs, unfortunately, they have been put together here, which is wrong, so that is why it doesn't work. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Largest tabbouleh

The lead currently includes the statement:

The largest bowl of tabbouleh was prepared in the Arab town of Shefa-'Amr in Israel in 2009 and weighed 4,324 kg.

WP:LEAD says: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." The vast majority of reliable sources about tabbouleh (as listed in this articles footnotes) say nothing about Guinness records for large bowls of tabbouleh, not to mention that it is patently silly. I have previously argued that these records aren't even encyclopedic, but consensus has been that they are. OK, fine. But that does not mean that they belong in the lead. User:Biosketch, in his edit comment when he restored this material to the lead, says "it has the consensus of editors on both "sides," so best would be to leave it as is". I see no discussion about having this material in the lead, nor do I see any de facto consensus based on the edit history; though I do see consensus on the wording. And what are "both" sides? The pro-Guinness and the anti-Guinness sides ☺ ? --Macrakis (talk) 15:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this information is rather trivial and doesn't really belong in the lead. Perhaps it doesn't even belong in the article, even though I helped to add most of it, but Mackrackis makes a good point that Guinness Records about the biggest bowl of whatever don't seem to be really encyclopedic, and as it changes often, it doesn't seem necessary to keep it in the lead. Its a transient and rather trivial fact. Tiamut^talk 17:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Support removal per Tiamut and Mackris. Guinness world records about who made the biggest bowl of tabbouleh is non notable information, doesn't belong in the article, and doesn't belong in the lead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not following the logic here. If there's consensus to include the Guinness records info in these articles, why argue for its removal particularly from this article? Furthermore, the business of the Guinness records isn't trivial because it's part of an ongoing cultural contest between Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinians. This is conveyed in the "World records" section lower down, and the lead makes a brief mention of it per WP:Lead – "It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies" (emphasis added). There are ways the sentence can be trimmed if editors feel it's too long relative to the rest of the lead.—Biosketch (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Biosketch, though I have argued against the silly Guinness records thing in the past, I concede that there seems (or seemed) to be a consensus on keeping it in the article. However, I see no consensus at all for keeping it in the lead of the article. Using the size of the largest bowl of tabbouleh as part of a public relations strategy (what you call a "cultural contest" ?!) does not make it a "prominent controversy". Anyway, at this point, I think you're the only one arguing for keeping it in the lead. --Macrakis (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The 'world record' is just a transient news grab of the largest pile of ingredients combined together. There is nothing noteworthy about this, seriously how can anyone call this a 'ongoing cultural contest between Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinians'. It is not culture - it is just how many skips of parsley can be put in one big pile. Mtpaley (talk) 01:25, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Unnecessary rant

I know I know, but I can get bored and then angry at the modification of this topic with Israel/Palestine deletions and "corrections"!! (Dumarest (talk) 18:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)).

And now for "Tabbouleh war, the movie"

New French film with an ironic title: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vive_la_France_(film,_2013) Plot: Fictional country of Tabboulistan "actually invented Tabbouleh, but the French colonialists then gave it to Lebanon". Now the country is reclaiming their cultural inheritage "for benefit glorious nation Tabboulistan", by launching a mission of "advertising terrorism" aimed at 9/11-ing the Eiffel tower. I wonder if the film's writers know about this here article's sensitive issues? P.S.: I'm Lebanese, and I find these "cultural wars" via Wikipedia utterly embarrassing. Specific Israeli culture objectively dates back to 1946 (unless we're talking biblical era and pre-Diaspora culture!), and obviously includes many things jewish and/or regional. The only real issue is who's currently holding the size record. Which I expect to see challenged regularly in the future. My crystal ball? Argumentum ad Wikipedia. ;-) Issar El-Aksab (talk) 21:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

What's most funny is that what we eat and call Taboulé in France is something with 90% couscous, some raisins, bell peppers and a little mint, a very unispiring dish compared to the delicious lebanese Tabbouleh. Aesma (talk) 00:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

sometimes considered a salad

The lead says "(sometimes considered a salad)". Does it make sense? Are there sources that state it is not a salad, to counter the very many sources that call it a salad without hesitation? Zero^talk 00:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't. I think we can delete it, Huldra (talk) 23:36, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Origin 2

Mishmosh hindi, there are sources showing that the origin of tabbouleh is Syria: p 172: https://books.google.se/books?id=ptZgNoobsyUC&pg=PA172&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Why do you keep removing it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Because it's not Syrian! It's the traditional lebanese salad! In syria may prepare it, but it does not means that the Salad is Syrian! It is the Lebanese traditional salad! You can mention syria but not in the (origen).. That's why... Mishmosh hindi (talk) 12:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

The source above show that its from the mountains of Lebanon and Syria. You have not provided any source that its origin is exclusively Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Kısır into Tabbouleh

WP:COMMONNAME in English for the same dish Spudlace (talk) 01:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The tabbouleh at many local Lebanese places in Ottawa contains not a speck of bulgur, which is apparently typical of Baalbek. It's a substantially different dish. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:8DA9:983F:FA89:32A1 (talk) 03:38, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely not "the same dish". At most they share two ingredients but have an utterly different recipe and taste nothing alike. Kisir is quite similar to Eetch and those two could maybe go together, but not sure which one of them would be a more common name. 2001:44B8:41AA:4F00:F84A:77E:2B3B:82CE (talk) 16:06, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, ok, sorry, the eetch article said they were similar to tabbouleh which I understood to be the common name but there may be variations of tabbouleh that would make the merge inappropriate. Withdrawn. Spudlace (talk) 23:26, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2021

Change “Vegetarian salad” to “plant-based salad”, check the ingredients list 2003:F5:BF0E:465:1484:276E:2C02:CC75 (talk) 18:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Not seeing a reason to change this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2021 for Tabbouleh Page

I don't know how to use wikipedia so sorry in advance.

But, shouldn't the salad be described in the introduction as "Vegan" instead of "Vegetarian"? 129.194.0.172 (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

 Partly done: I agree that the salad appears to be vegan, based on the ingredients, but designating whether it's vegan or vegetarian seems to be a superfluous detail, so I've removed it. Melmann 21:01, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

relevance of popularity in the U.S.A.

The detail: "...tabbouleh has become a popular food in the United States."

is quite a bit too U.S.A.-centric, don't you think? Is there any info about the popularity of tabbouleh in any of the other 200 countries?

Maybe editors from the U.S.A do not see this bias in their own thoughts? What do other people think? It seems pretty glaring to me, a non-USA citizen. JEmKay (talk) 11:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Kisir is not similar to tabbouleh.

I propose we remove reference to Turkish kisir or Armenian eetch, they are not similar to tabbouleh. The recognized similar Levantine Lebanese and Syrian food to eetch and kisir is “kibbet banadoura”. Just because eetch and kisir use burghol and parsley doesn’t make them tabbouli. We also have safsouf in Lebanon, and we still won’t call that tabbouleh.

Point: kisir and eetch are not similar to tabbouleh. Too many varieties of burghol added dishes in Lebanon and Syria that are more similar to kisir and eetch. One of those dishes is kibbet banadoura. This dish is the sister of those dishes. And we don’t consider it similar to tabbouleh. If we are going to include kisir and eetch were are also going to have to talk about kibbet banadoura on the tabbouleh page. And that doesn’t make sense. This isn’t a blanket article about dishes that includes burghol.

Lebanesebebe123 (talk) 23:17, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Tabbouleh is a parsley based salad

When tabbouleh has more burghol and less parsley that is not tabbouleh. Dish has entirely different name Lebanesebebe123 (talk) 20:21, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

remove reference to "uncooked" bulgur. the article should just say made with "soaked bulgur"

bulgur is definitionally a cooked product (steamed cracked wheat) and doesn't need cooking 96.238.41.32 (talk) 18:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)