Talk:Grey

Requested move 22 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. However, the article text should be in the same variety of English as the title. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 22:03, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

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Grey → Gray – This article uses American English, so the title should also be in American English to avoid confusing readers. Amogus girl (talk) 23:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE Adumbrativus (talk) 04:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support establishing this to American English. There doesn’t seem to have an established variant for the article so MOS:RETAIN does not apply. Shwcz (talk) 00:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE – robertsky (talk) 05:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
• oppose there is an absence of consensus to the contrary so MOS:RETAIN—blindlynx 00:24, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  that's a weird comment to make as the second person to comment on a move request Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• neutral According to 2010's ngrams: In AE, gray is 3x as common. In BE, grey is 2x as common. In the whole-english corpus, gray is 30% more common. This may sound like both are acceptable, but the relative prevalence of 'color' in BE is higher than 'grey' in AE, and nobody would argue 'color' is "acceptable" in BE. Doesn't quite precede over MOS:RETAIN though.Curran919 (talk) 00:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONALITY, as noted in the Commons discussion the spelling with the e seems to be acceptable in American English as well. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:38, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• That's not what the sources suggest. Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support It dosen’t make sense for the article to be in American English but for the title to be in British English. こもれびーさん_{Leave me a message!} 05:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE Adumbrativus (talk) 04:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support: If the article is in American English, it should use "gray", not "grey". The "grey" spelling is not common at all in American English. (Maybe Google's Ngram corpus says there is a 3× ratio, but in reality, it's a much higher number.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose there is an absence of consensus to the contrary so MOS:RETAIN. Not sure why the article body is in American English also. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

When making my comment, I had not realized there had been two or three previous RMs for this article, depending on how they are counted. The history and discussions are roughly summarized below:

• Talk:Grey/Archive 1#Page move (26 February – 1 March 2004): The page had used "Gray" when created (by a split on 17 June 2004‎ from an article that used American spelling) until an undiscussed move and unilateral spelling changes to British English (both "grey" and "colour") on 17 February 2005 by an account that still has no other edits in its edit history other than changing the spelling of this article. Someone objected, and the page was moved back to "Gray" (with "color" in the body) after 4 days of discussion. (For day counting purposes, please note that 2004 was a leap year.)
• Talk:Grey/Archive 1#Requested Move: (There and back again...) (2–11 March 2004): Started immediately after closure of the first RM, putting forth a commonality argument, resulting in "Grey" (but using "color" rather than "colour").
• Talk:Grey/Archive 1#Requested move 2 (2–20 July 2014): No consensus.

—⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

bruh the article is in American English already Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RETAIN. The article is written in American English and was started with the American spelling. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose on aesthetic grounds – I just like "grey" more *shrugs*. It matches well with its pronunciation of /ɡreɪ/. (As my userpage's Babel tags show, I grew up with a mix of English varieties, and barely notice the difference; are readers actually confused by this? Does changing this help avoid confusing readers, or is it motivated by nationalism?) oatco (talk) 21:48, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  On a more serious note, oppose as per MOS:COMMONALITY and MOS:RETAIN (it's been this way for 18 years). Again, on a lighthearted note, I support keeping the current status quo of "grey" but otherwise using the same American spellings that are currently used in the rest of the article. Let this article be a shining example of multiculturalism or something – an international article for an international encyclopedia in a truly international language. oatco (talk) 22:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom, and for several reasons:

...per WP:RETAIN, like with User:Rreagan007's comment above. "The article is written in American English and was started with the American spelling."

...per the ngrams' usage data, mentioned by User:Curran919 above. "In AE, gray is 3x as common" (at least), while in BE, grey is only "2x as common". And, "in the whole-english corpus, gray is 30% more common."

...for consistency, like with User:こもれびーさん's comment above. "It dosen’t make sense for the article to be in American English but for the title to be in British English."

...and, per User:BarrelProof's comment above. "If the article is in American English, it should use "gray", not "grey". The "grey" spelling is not common at all in American English. (Maybe Google's Ngram corpus says there is a 3× ratio, but in reality, it's a much higher number.)"

etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:RETAIN. An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another. Please stop trying to make this into American English Wikipedia. Also, Greyhound Lines exists and is American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YorkshireExpat (talk • contribs) 15:35, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

"Greyhound" is a breed of dog, not the same word as "grey"/"gray", and is not a simple compound descriptive term, as many Greyhounds are not grey. AFAIK, people in the United States (at least mostly) do not use "Grayhound". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

@YorkshireExpat: Please stop trying to make this into American English Wikipedia. tbh I think that battle was lost long ago; even 15 years back, editors (including Americans) were expressing concern about that tendency and it's only got worse since then. You'd think that after ~20 years a viable solution would've been found for the same argument that comes up in every other topic; that and Wikipedia's unique and bizarre habit of appropriating people's nationalities (it's irritating having to check someone's place of birth and background every time I read a bio here...) --Vometia (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, Shwcz, BarrelProof, Rreagan007 and Paintspot Infez. An article written in British English should use British spelling in its main title header and an article written in American English should use an American header. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:44, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Weak support. It's mostly written in American English, so let's go with the American spelling. O.N.R. ^(talk) 07:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Someone please close no consensus not moved, no relist, nom was a sock In ictu oculi (talk) 16:57, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  The proposer being a sock doesn't affect the merits of the RM, does it? Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose-

1. Gray is only used in 1 english speaking country where as grey is used in several
2. The english variant must not be changed without a valid reason and consistancy isn't

NotOrrio (talk) 00:51, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

That's not true; this move doesn't change the English variant. Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose as others have stated, grey is accepted in all versions of English whereas gray is a US-only variant. --Vometia (talk) 11:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  That's just flatly untrue. "Grey" accounts for just 67% of UK usage while "gray" accounts for 75% of US usage. That is, "gray" is more popular in the UK than "grey" is in the USA. Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  News to me. The only time I've ever seen it used is either in US publications or as a surname. Edit: I've checked just in case I really am that unobservant and spell-checkers will flag it as incorrect or at least non-standard; it's essentially never used in the UK and considered incorrect on the rare occasions it does appear, which certainly isn't ⅔rds of the time. --Vometia (talk) 06:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  But Ngrams says so!!! YorkshireExpat (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ugh, Google as a reliable source. Yikes. Though I am reminded of some e.g. tech publications where they're obliged to use US spellings even if they're from the UK (often to the irritation of authors and readers alike) the likes of which will skew results. --Vometia (talk) 10:00, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support; this article's title hinges on the proposal that "grey" is more of a WP:COMMONALITY than "gray". But the sources don't back that up; rather they show the opposite. American and British usage for reference. "Gray" is legitimately more of a commonality than "grey", so there's no reason for it not to match the WP:RETAINed original variety of English on the page. Red Slash 23:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  There are more countries than just the USA and UK where significant percentages of the populace speak English. It would be good to see some of these included in an analysis. YorkshireExpat (talk) 23:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  "British English" refers to any country where the majority of the English-speaking population spells the British way. Red Slash 17:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  That would be {{EngvarB}}. The list of English variants that Wikipedia recognises is also on that page. Do you want to tell all those people they speak British English? YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  Going off-topic a bit, I dunno if I object more to "British English" as an apparent tautology, the ugliness of an -ish -ish construct, as an Englishwoman (and one of Scottish descent: they'll have a thing or two to say about speaking "British English"!) or a Northumbrian being presumed to speak RP or Estuary. D: --Vometia (talk) 09:34, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  This is what Wikipedia considers the variant though. It's an interesting thing, the point where dialects end and languages start. The UK has far more of the former than the latter. Where Scots get a language, Northumbrians are relegated to a mere dialect. I'm sure Ngrams doesn't pick up the subtleties of this. YorkshireExpat (talk) 10:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Gray is the U.S. variant of spelling gray. If most countries that speak English used "gray" then, yeah change it, however, most use "grey", so it is unnecessary to change it. TomMasterReal^TALK 02:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  That's not how WP:RETAIN works Red Slash 17:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  It is how WP:COMMONNAME works though. YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:53, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  No, "number of countries where this usage is slightly more common" is not how common name works. THIS is how common name works. Red Slash 01:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ngrams is not a silver bullet here. YorkshireExpat (talk) 08:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. YorkshireExpat (talk) 08:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONALITY. As Curran919 points out, Google Ngrams would appear to suggest that "color" is an acceptable spelling in British English: 2019 has "color" at 0.0026% and "colour" at 0.0046%. Meanwhile, we have "gray" at 0.0013% and "grey" at 0.0036%, an even larger discrepancy than "colo(u)r". When we can't trust the data, we have to rely on our gut, and my gut tells me that "grey" is a relatively common variant in American English but "gray" is relatively uncommon in British English. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

  @King of Hearts the problem with gr(a/e)y in ngrams, is the contribution of meanings unrelated to color. For example, Gray as a radiation dose would be thusly spelled in both AE/BE. Grey as a surname would be spelled thusly in both. It's hard to quantify the effect of those non-color terms on the ngram. However, I can't imagine at all why BE has such a high prevalence of "color". That really makes me doubt the usefulness at all. I'll have to go through some of the sources to see the context of "color" in BE. Curran919 (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Canadian dialect

It is true that the word gray of canadian english is more correct by letter a than letter e as im grey for british dialect. I mean gray is reserved for north american dialect. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:40D9:1A4:1AF1:CBC9 (talk) 14:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Both are correct in either variety. Summer ^talk 21:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistent dates

In the etymology section, please change "The first recorded use of grey as a color name in the English language was in 800 CE." to "The first recorded use of grey as a color name in the English language was in 700 CE."

(The date of first usage is different between the lede and etymology sections. Looking at past revisions, they used to both have the 700 CE date). 184.66.244.55 (talk) 05:10, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

 Note: implementing this requires checking the listed source IMO. I can't find a copy online, but I do have access to a physical version. If someone else makes this decision before I do, please ping me here. --Pinchme123 (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cool book! It definitely lists both "grey" and "gray" as having entered the English language around 700 CE (my pointe being, there's no dispute in the source about this). --Pinchme123 (talk) 01:04, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

"Dove gray" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Dove gray has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 29 § Dove gray until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 20:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)