Talk:Ancient university

Untitled

This article is nothing more than a dictionary entry, and therefore deserves the same fate as Oxbridge, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, "ancient university" may usually refer to British universities, but to me it just means "universities that are ancient", and therefore not necessarily in Britain. Jeronimo

Dublin...

...was not part of the UK when it was founded, for the simple reason that the UK did not exist in 1592! Loganberry 02:10, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dundee is often counted as one of the ancient universities of Scotland due to its former status as part of St Andrews - see the University of Dundee page.

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No mention of the Scottish Ancients Group (evolved into CHESS)? I believe all the Scottish unis considered to be 'ancient' were members: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, St Andrews and possibly Aberdeen. Although now, I think Aberdeen deals solely with the NUS and since the name change, new universities have joined up (Strathclyde and the Open University)

Other ancient universities in England?

I have heard it said that at the time of the foundation of Oxford and Cambridge, there were other institutions in England that were effectively indistinguishable from them, but which did not survive past the reformation as universities - for example King's School in Ottery St Mary, Devon, which became a grammar school. Does anyone know if this is true? seglea 12:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Universities are not defined by their functions, but by documents (parliamentary act, letters patent, royal warrant, papal bull) that enshrine those functions. If the article uses function itself to include institutions without official university status, the same logic should also exclude Oxford and Cambridge during their less proud times, even though they did not lose university status. Maybe it would be useful to include a sentence acknowledging the existence of non-university institutions, link to a few examples, and perhaps indicate why these were not granted university status? 3 October 2005

Lampeter?

Would Lampeter University count? Granted, it's not ancient per se, but it's older than the red-brick Universities, and was created to serve a different function, i.e. training clergy.

no, it was not a university when it was created. it gained university status in 1971, so is deffinatly not anchient. if Nanjing University is not counted, than lampeter is most certainly not. mastodon 21:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Lampeter's situation is far more complicated than that, because it gained its own degree awarding powers early on in its life - the third institution to gain degree awarding powers after Oxford and Cambridge in England and Wales and a feature unusual to Lampeter (the other early colleges did not gain degree awarding powers until later). In government documents in the 1940s, Lampeter was being referred to as a university, a good few decades before the word 'university' actually worked its way into the institution's official title in 1971. I'm certainly not saying that Lampeter is an 'ancient university', but it can trace its degree awarding powers to earlier than any other university in England and Wales besides Oxbridge, so deserves special mention. That said, i am biased ;) Twrist 12:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You might be interested in the discussion which goes on (at lennnnnngth) about the University of Dundee, which some people want to call an ancient. It isn't, in majority opinion, but it can trace its roots back to the very ancient St. Andrews University. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Aah yes that is interesting, thanks! Twrist 13:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it may well be worth a mention, even though I would consider a university to be, as its name suggests, a broader educational institution than a clerical college. I think the main fault of this label is that many users try to categorise it in an either/or manner. As with the Dundee example - it has an ancient Scottish organisational structure etc, although its age is insufficient to qualify it in that fashion. It is still therefore well worthy of mention when the issue is being discussed IMO --Breadandcheese 20:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

worldwideness

seems very UK-central. i say other institues should be better represented; i've added some in. where did the deffinition come from? mastodon 21:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The term is in common usage in U.K. academic and political circles. It's UK-centric, but that's irrelevant if the term isn't used elsewhere. In the U.S. they have the "Ivy League", but I don't think that's U.S.-centric just because it's not used widely elsewhere. It's simply a local phrase. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I clicked on this article thinking that was about some university in ancient Greece! (and some Italian universities are much more "ancient" than the British/Irish one) What about to move the article to Ancient universities (British Isles)? Or we could have simply a redirect to List of oldest universities in continuous operation and a section about it. --Dia^ (talk) 18:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I think this article should be a disambig page with two links:

• List of oldest universities in continuous operation
• Ancient higher-learning institutions

VR _talk 00:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Merge

The Ancient universities of Scotland article seems to be largely a duplicate insofar as it is a localised page on this subject with very little in the way of localised information which could easily be included here and would be of interest to anyone dealing with the general topic. --Breadandcheese 20:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

World's oldest universities

What about Al-Qarawiyyin Mosque & University whose construction started in 859 CE (245 AH) by a Muslim woman named Fatima Al-Fihri in the city of Fez, Morocco. Among it's non-Muslim students was Gerber of Auvergne who later baecame Pope Sylvester II who went on to introduce Arabic numerals & the concept of zero to medieval Europe. Another was a Jewish physician & philosopher, Maimonides. He was heavily influenced by Islamic thought & was the first to introduce articles of faith to Judaism. Taha K TKidwai (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

References

Can someone produce a reference that groups together these universities under a banner of "Ancient university", and explains the origins of this grouping? From what I can gather, this article seems largely fictional. At least the Ancient universities of Scotland article points to legislation, but the acts use the term "Older university". --HighKing (talk) 12:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Very Euro-centric Article! Should be called.. "Ancient University (UK)"

Frustrating to see only UK or European universities. What about ancient Persia, India, China or Constantinople? Their ancient universities predated those of Europe by aeons... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.229.101.198 (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

See the opening sentences of the article; these topics are at Ancient higher-learning institutions. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Still the point still holds. Who exactly refers to these as "ancient universities"? Where does this grouping come from? --HighKing (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The term is primarily used in Scotland, where it has technical legal significance; see the article Ancient universities of Scotland. Within England the corresponding group is Oxbridge, and the term "Ancient Universities" is rarely if ever used, making the existence of this article slightly odd. Just deleting this article (after merging any relevant content to Ancient universities of Scotland and sorting out links) wouldn't be silly. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Convert to disambigiuation page?

Re-reading the discussions above, the most plauisble suggestion is to convert this to a disambiguation page. Something like

• Ancient higher-learning institutions
• Ancient universities of Scotland
• List of oldest universities in continuous operation

would be a reasonable start. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd go along with that - as it stands, the current article is unreferenced. --HighKing (talk) 15:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

That said though ... you can find references to "ancient university" on the Trinity College Dublin website. --HighKing (talk) 15:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: History of Science

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smaxforbe, Miguel Nunez 1119 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Tkmndd.

— Assignment last updated by NGrahamMST (talk) 00:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Foundation

I am going to add some context on the foundation as a term. Some of these schools already existed before their founding and I feel like adding context behind how they were classified officially as Universities will aid readers. Smaxforbe (talk) 02:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Notes

I am going to add some additional information on when the University of Cambridge was recognized as a "university". Miguel Nunez 1119 (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Teachings of England

I was wanting to add some information of Oxford and Cambridge on how the degrees were originally just licenses to teach, but later became an obligation to teach. I would go into details on what are Regents and Non-regents. I believe that adding this, people can see how much the education system has changed. Miguel Nunez 1119 (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Reasoning of Additions

I appreciated the comments that the user: Robminchin had, and I agree that "Teachings of England" wasn't the best title for that section. I believe that the information I had could still be implemented somewhere in this article, for having some details on the purpose of a degree for the students at the time and what work/effort was required of the students seems necessary when talking about the origins of universities. It is because of this, that I still plan to add this information, but with a different source. I'm more than happy to have Robminchin look over my additions to ensure that the article flows well and would also like to hear constructive feedback. Additionally, I plan to add in "Acts of Parliament", on how the Chantries Act of 1545 affected the University of Cambridge Miguel Nunez 1119 (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Foundation Additions and New Ancient University Campus Life subsection

Agreeing with the comment above, I would like to reiterate my reasons to include context on terminology used throughout the article pertaining to foundation. I believe its necessary to have especially when discussing the topic of foundation in the Notes column. I have 3 different sources now that reference the discussion and would love feedback on it. Additionally I plan to add a subsection on how campus life functioned. I found a really interesting topic pertaining to bell schedule and feel it is worth adding. Appreciate any feedback. Smaxforbe (talk) 02:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Please write in comprehensible English, in an encyclopedic style, give full references (such as volume numbers for multi-volume works) and ensure what you are writing reflects what the sources actually say. Robminchin (talk) 05:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Please also remember that this article is primarily about the ancient universities as they exist today, particularly their common features as ancient universities. I have renamed 'Foundation' to 'Foundation and development' to give a better place to put information about their historical development.

It might be interesting to put in something about the priority disputes between Oxford and Cambridge, and the completely fictional histories they both dreamed up in attempts to claim priority (e.g. [1], [2] and see The Annals of University College). Robminchin (talk) 06:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)