AGWG-2024-11-12 – 12 November 2024

Meeting minutes

<Chuck> Discussion of WCAG 3 w3c/wcag3#129

<ChrisLoiselle> unable to scribe this week, apologies.

<Laura_Carlson> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<Laura_Carlson> Scribing Commands and Related Info https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribing_Commands_and_Related_Info

Chuck: Welcome, I will be chairing today

Chuck: Is there anyone new to the group or new role they'd like to announce?

Chuck: Any announcements?

Subgroup wrap up briefings

Alastair: We will close the WCAG 2 CFC shortly. I need to confer with co-chairs

Chuck: Keyboard is not going to be talking today, but will continue work.

<ChrisLoiselle> On keyboard, that is correct.

Chuck: In no particular order, is Giacommo or someone available?

Giacomo: Thank you to anyone who contributed

[Sharing screen]

Giacomo: We divided our work into sections.
… The last section is historical. Then we created a separate tab for the minute
… Then we have examples.

Giacomo: We have identified several techniques. They are listed under Method List
… Within the region methods we identified technique
… the Regions (Minimum) has common techniques
… The (Enhanced) is less common.
… We then addressed labels for groups of items -- and here we are talking about labels, not accessible names
… We questioned whether the technology supports headings; if so, we have a heading structure method

<Tananda> + present

Giacomo: We also asked if there are other relationships beyond headings. This is addressed by Programmatic Relationship
… Lists, table/grid, and tree are techniques under Programmatic Relationship
… We have made important progress.

Chuck: Are you at a stage where you can create a pull request?

Giacomo: We can do that, yes.

Chuck: Any other questions?

Chuck: Julie are you available to talk about Implied meaning?

<julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P7fOyEPVlqf1aXuJY0SO9LeC-E7EZllg/edit

Julie: I want to thank everyone in the group for their time. We think we are at a point to share this and get feedback; we're not completely done.
… We started off with user-centered outcomes. We listed a few audiences that would benefit beside COGA and neuro-diverse users.
… We spent a considerable amount of time on the decision tree.
… We want to try as much as possible to have tools reduce the burden on humans
… the decision tree is set up to be flexible as tools improve or develop
… The ultimate responsibility is with the publisher.
… For the method list, the first is about determining if the content has non-literal text
… We have examples in English. We thought a way to keep this from getting over-long was to use a wiki to add examples in other languages
… Below is a list of common non-literal language
… We have a technique to use cross-translation to identify non-literal language
… We have two other methods: Make text available to user agents, including assistive technology; and Explain non-literal text or provide a literal alternative.
… I wanted to thank Makoto, who has already started populating the wiki with Japanese examples.

Gundula: I have a question with the decision tree
… Did I read it correctly that if it is read with assistive tools, it passes?
… Users not using the tools would not see the literal meaning.

Julie: We are using the term "assistive technology" very broadly
… If I as the publisher found a tool that did this automatically, I do not need to

Gundula: Some users who might need the explanation might not use the tool.

Gregg: I think that's a slippery slope. We could say 'if people are blind and they don't have a screen reader, the author should provide one'.
… We make ALT text available but not visible.

<GN015> Thanks, Greg, for the real-life examples.

Gregg: Things like standup comics should probably be excepted. All politicians speak in hyperbole.
… I love where this is going. I'm just not sure this can be done by AI.
… A lot of people have trouble with normal words in the language when they get above a particular level.
… If we had a standard tool where people entered common idioms and then that common tool could be used by tools that just detected them. They could highlight them.
… Then those would be identified at the user's option.

<GN015> Still, in a written text such clarification can be added to be available on request, like in tooltips or popovers (compare wikipedia providing short explanations for terms within an article).

Gregg: A dictionary shouldn't have to be provided by the author for every word a user doesn't understand.

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to discuss Gundula's question, it's the leveling

Gregg: It could be just something standard built into a browser.

Alastair: It is important to look at the levelling in the decision tree.

<GN015> I fully agree the nature of the text should be observed. Literature and poetry certainly have a different position than learning material.

Alastair: If the non-literal text is presented to user agents, this passes. That is allowing the user agent to fulfill this. We can quibble with exactly what that means.
… The author just needs to provide text in a way the UA can pass.

Scott: I'm going to echo some of what Gregg said.
… The thing that jumps out to me is scoping.
… How is this to be applied in different instances? Is not the context important? I know literature and poetry is called out...
… For instance, The Onion is a satirical webiste. Is that enough context to cue that there is satire?
… If someone says "This is the worst movie I ever saw" do we need something saying "This is hyperbole. It may not be the actual worst movie the user has seen."
… Like Gregg says, comedians having to explain their jokes...
… Freelancers are paid very little to create their work. This requirement would place a lot of additional stress on such a job.

Chuck: Due to time constraints I'm going to move on...
… Chris, if you could be brief.

Chris: Marketing tends to play on English language to promote products. Having to put in disclaimer on such context.

<alastairc> These arguement would suggest the bit above prerequisite should be in supplimental rather than baseline.

Chris: I was also wondering if the w3 is going to create the list, or if the user agents independently have to do this.

<JJ> Chuck, I was expected to also present something on the Views subgroup - I can give a short presentation on the goals we have.

Alastair: On Scott's point, that would be an argument for putting the author effort at the supplemental level.
… It would become part of scoring.
… Now, Non-text Contrast...

[Sharing screen]

Alastair: We updated the outcomes to say "Users have content that does not rely on a single sense or perception"
… Thank you to the people in the group.
… We had discussions about making the information the same hue. That was our high level test.
… The main bit we got to was the decision tree.
… Is a graphic conveying information?
… We then become more specific than in WCAG 2.x
… We had some supplemental methods.

<Chuck> ach kirk

JohnK: That first sentence bothered me
… It seemed to be an incorrect use of the word "hue"

Alastair: Hue is part of colour. We also have luminence and contrast.

JohnK: Hue has nothing to do with this

Alastair: To do with what?

JohnK: Would you read the phrase?

Alastair: " Information conveyed by graphical elements does not rely on hue"
… A hue would be a red. You could have different contrast with the same hue

Gundula: I did not have the chance to participate recently.
… It's quite a mix up between use of color and non-text contrast

<GreggVan> Hue refers to the specific shade or tint of a color. It's the attribute that defines a pure color, without considering its lightness or darkness (value) or its intensity (saturation). Think of hues as the basic colors you see in a rainbow: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. When we talk about the hue of a color, we are referring to its position on the color wheel.

<GreggVan> Color is a broader term that encompasses hue, value, and saturation. It includes the overall appearance of a hue when combined with different levels of lightness and intensity. For example, "sky blue" is a color that describes a light, desaturated blue hue, while "navy blue" is a color that describes a dark, saturated blue hue. Essentially, color is the complete visual experience created by combining hue with its variations in lightness and saturation.

Gundula: this talks about shape, for example.
… buttons do not have outlines anymore, but are detected by their placement. So this is a big change.

Chuck: Was that a comment or a question?

Gundula: Should we separate this more?

Lori: I have a basic question.
… users contact me about colour. Why aren't we just using simple English words? Why not just say "light red", "dark red".
… Users don't say "this is the wrong hue of blue".
… We should avoid luminance, hue, etc.

Gregg: The reason we don't use colour is that people don't see them the same. if you have red-green colour blindness, they see red and green as the same.
… If people do not see colour for example -- they see black and white. It's not contrast you are supposed to be measuring. You are supposed to be able to distinguish colours.

Lori: Your explanation is perfect about why I'd never use hue or luminance.

Gregg: It's not luminance, it's luminosity
… I popped in some terms about what hue and colour is. I suggest adding those to the document.
… It should talk about lightness and darkess -- luminosity. "Lightness" and "darkness" get into moods and genres of literature, which is why we should use "luminosity".

When we use the technical term, we should append "(lightness and darkness)"

<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say we have levels of language that could solve this

Rachael: We do have this concept in WCAG 3 that high level we use plain language and as we get further down, it can be more technical.

Discussion of WCAG 3 w3c/wcag3#129

Chuck: This is about WCAG 3, not the explainer.

<Rachael> Preview: https://deploy-preview-132--wcag3.netlify.app/explainer/

<Rachael> Preview for WCAG 3: https://deploy-preview-129--wcag3.netlify.app/guidelines/

Chuck: we are going to send out a pre-CFC

rachaael: Use the second link

Rachael: We had everyone review the guidelines

<alastairc> Gundula - could you put a comment in the doc for what you said? I didn't quite understand and couldn't note it mysefl.

Rachael: The preview hopefully has more consistent content
… We have editor's note where we know active research at the most basic level is needed.
… All of this, except for Focus Appearance and Alt Text are labelled as exploratory

<GN015> Alastair - Yes, after the meeting. Is that fine?

<alastairc> Yes, thank you

Rachael: You'll also note that a lot of material has been moved to the Explainer
… Continue to review this over the next few days.
… We hope to address comments, and work towards a CFC.

Rachael: We are moving towards publication of the explainer.
… Right now we are working to get the Explainer to CFC and this to pre-CFC.

Gregg: Can you put a link to the Explainer from the WCAG document?

Chuck: I don't know that I'm arguing against putting in the link, but we are segregating work on these documents.

Kevin: We can take a look at putting in a link in the abstract. Likewise for the requirements.

Gregg: Can you put in a link for the requirements?

<alastairc> The Abstract does already link to the "Introduction", which will also link to the explainer

Chuck: Does anyone have concerns with how we use the next week?

Julie: It is pretty minor, but as I scroll down the left column, could they be listed in alphabetical order?

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to say that we know the definitions need adding, so there are red lines a lot

Julie: Or a logica for why they're presented as they are.

<kevin> Explainer PR

<kevin> Requirements ED

Alastair: We know that there are definitions missing. Where you see red squiggly lines, we know that is missing. No need to provide comments about that.
… If regard to ordering, we can look at that. I'm not sure it's going to make much difference for this conversation.

Gregg: I think you should make it logical order, not alphabetical. ONce you translate it, it would cease being alphabetical -- which is an arbitrary order.

Gregg: often we have a document, or put in a document, questions we have. Do we have anything like that?
… For instance the order of the items.

<alastairc> Gregg - yes, e.g. https://deploy-preview-129--wcag3.netlify.app/guidelines/#issue-container-generatedID

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask for scribe change

Gregs questions - two or 3 questions per publication, address smae fears of people, converstaion for next week to coordinate our social meida

Gregg: are we having a list of questions that we have raised? Can we write down the questions that we havne't answered yet

<kirkwood> +1 to Julie

<Jennie_Delisi> +1 to Julie

Julie - helpful to list major groups, it's a hugely long list, no numbers for size of guidelines, need something at the top of the doc

<alastairc> There is a big note at the top of the guidelines section

racheal - we keep all the questions, many moved into the explainer, not in editors notes

Discussion of Explainer w3c/wcag3#116 (comment)

<kirkwood> +1 to Rachael Plain language summary seemingly would be able to handle it

<kevin> Explainer PR

Chick - next dicussion of the explainer, a link was posted earlier

Chuck - time spent on the explainer, permission to go to CFC with the explainer, recent updates which were positive, Kevin moved somethings around

Kevin - moved a section to the explainer, added some TBD in terms, we will make a definition

<Jennie_Delisi> * Nice use of wayfinding support in the table of contents: bold text, white space, numbers.

Gregg - absract needs an abstract, what is the purose of the document

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on the update

<alastairc> The updates from our last discussions were https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/116/commits/a60c9d57fb3880c047d353a79f25be0ab4cfca97#diff-cbc10fb4d19472d5b1b3fdc6f39509c1f90afaba3822f0a4f18396175120a24cL217

Alistair - updates amde based on discussions, all changes in above link, look here for updates

Chuck - one comment already

Gregg - guidelines preview?

<Chuck> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/pull/116/commits/a60c9d57fb3880c047d353a79f25be0ab4cfca97#diff-cbc10fb4d19472d5b1b3fdc6f39509c1f90afaba3822f0a4f18396175120a24cL217

Racheal - use what Alistair put in

Alistair - additonal notes on including recommendations, adjustments to assertion section

Gregg - comments should be made in the doc linked to, where?

<Rachael> I believe the current explainer is at https://deploy-preview-132--wcag3.netlify.app/explainer/

Racheal - talking about the guidelines, chuck is talking about the explainer, what Kevin put in, no google doc, add comments in github

Chuck - comments will be in github, questions about explainer?

<Chuck> Draft RESOLUTION: Pending updates to Abstract, Explainer can go to CFC for publication.

Chuck - know we will get feedback on abstract

Alistair - Wendy added comments, we can take care ofthose editorial changes before CFC

<wendyreid> +1

<Chuck> +1

<GreggVan> +1

<ShawnT> +1

<julierawe> +1

<Laura_Carlson> +1

<Rachael> +1

<ljoakley> +1

<MJ> +1

<Jennie_Delisi> +1

<alastairc> +1

<tiffanyburtin> +1

<DJ> +1

<mgarrish> +1

<LenB> +1

<Francis_Storr> +1

<Glenda> +1

<ChrisLoiselle> +1

<filippo-zorzi> +1

<Gez> +1

<stevef> +1

<Jen_G> +1

<Jon_avila> +1

<jtoles> +1

<Frankie> +1

RESOLUTION: Pending updates to Abstract, Explainer can go to CFC for publication.

<ToddL> +1

<JeanneEC> +1

(New) Subgroup Work (2nd hour)

Hcuck - final item, new subgroups, DJ comment about the views subgroup?

JJ - what is expected during the meeting? I have my presentation from view subgroup

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on Views

Chuck - remainder is for new subgroups to meet, introduce, not to present, it's a kickoff meeting, times proposed are the best, then begin subgroup work

Alistair - views is working a definition rather than a guideline, JJ should go through presentation of view, next steps gather examples, mostly about examples in Views

<JJ> TPAC session for Views: w3c/tpac2024-breakouts#46 Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html Slides: https://janjaap.com/tpac2024/

<Chuck> Views: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.7bct10877dbh

<Chuck> Voice Control: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IpVHc8-PRn7z-wqZ32G4zG4CjFdZT0HAJ787WfUxNP0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.nykct8nbnejl

Chuck - 4 subgroups, announces subgroup leaders, long list of people to lead the new subgroups, jump into your subgroups, introduce yourselves

<Chuck> Text Contrast: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EGEgRebgj8XfvwU-Fx2kAtd-3Ifl-UkEgyOxT1Xc5UY/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti

<Chuck> Text To Speech: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EGEgRebgj8XfvwU-Fx2kAtd-3Ifl-UkEgyOxT1Xc5UY/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on Giacomo's question

Alistair - grab template? looking for link to google doc

<Rachael> Views page: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.7bct10877dbh

chuck - plase jump into that subgroup

<ShawnT> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BIcyTcyGz-vb6FCAzzhXcXFukktgjUU6-dM0rYsuYMM/edit?tab=t.0

<Rachael> text to speech https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BIcyTcyGz-vb6FCAzzhXcXFukktgjUU6-dM0rYsuYMM/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti