– DRAFT –
(MEETING TITLE)

<Jennie> Chuck: We are working on technical issues and will start the 2nd minute after the hour

<Jennie> Chuck: Thank you for coming. We need a scribe for the 2nd hour.

<Jennie> mbgower - like this? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribing_Commands_and_Related_Info

<Jennie> Chuck: Anyone want to introduce themselves?

<Jennie> Chuck: Any new topics for future conversations?

Measurement Proposals

<Jennie> Chuck: Jeanne will start first. I did not send the links out to this

<Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10-1vKOYXBDKLJecfLmtz9tH3T1Y8PRW7pqG6HAcvaHU/

<AWK> +AWK

<Jennie> Chuck: These are scoring proposals we want the Accessibility Guidelines and Silver group to review, consider

<Jennie> ...Next will be Alastair

<Jennie> Jeanne: This was a consolidation of a number of discussions different groups have had about

<Jennie> ...ways to improve what was in the 1st public working draft.

<Jennie> ...I started with an attempt to make scoring consistent across guidelines

<Jennie> Jeanne: many addressed this in content

<Jennie> ...To simplify the scoring to make it easier

<Jennie> ...We will be counting errors

<Jennie> ...And it removes the wholistic tests.

<Jennie> ...It was a really good ideas, but it has raised a lot of questions.

<Jennie> ...I don't think we have a lot of answers for them

<Jennie> ...Personally the idea raised by John Folio is better than the wholistic test idea.

<Jennie> ...I want to propose we remove the holistic tests in Section 4

<Jennie> ...In the testing section we would simplify the types of tests, so it only includes the atomic tests

<Jennie> ...We could rename it test

<Jennie> ...In section 4: atomic could change to unit tests

<Jennie> ...In section 5: testing could be by view instead of

<Jennie> ...We were doing it by element in 5.1

<mbgower> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag

<Jennie> ...Instead of by element, recommend chaning it to view

<Jennie> ...It could be used beyond web if appropriate

<Jennie> ...Instead of a different scoring system for each guideline, we would go to a percentage score

<Jennie> ...Guidelines that are true/false could be 100%

<Jennie> ...100% minus failures

<Jennie> ...All guidelines with a failure rate less than 5% would pass

<Jennie> ...No fractional percentages

<Jennie> ...Anything .5 or higher would round up - this responds to one of the github issues

<Jennie> ...Any guidelines with a quality measurement will have specific criteria defining each band

<Jennie> ...So it can be compared with different guidelines

<Jennie> ...I am recommending we remove sections 5.2, 5.3, and 5.4

<Jennie> ...This will simplify a lot of the scoring

<Jennie> ...Critical errors would remain, but they automatically fail when encountered

<Jennie> ...Testing could stop if encountering a critical error

<Jennie> Chuck: If there is a critical failure you can stop testing. But, if one isn't encountered, you are generating a percentage

<Jennie> ...I know that others had expressed concerns about counting the failures

<Jennie> ...To me it appears that in order to get the percentage, you still are counting the number of failures

<Jennie> ...With a critical failure you can stop - the percentage is not meaningful

<Jennie> ...Is there value in having the percentage if one is encountered, or is it just a zero?

<Jennie> Jeanne: I think that would be up to the tester and what they are reporting

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask about percentages and critical errors

<Jennie> ...The accessibility consultancy I have worked for will continue to test

<Jennie> ...They want to give a report to the client of all issues

<Jennie> ...But for conformance reports, they would not need to

<Jennie> ...I will finish the examples, then can go through the questions

<GreggVan> please do go ahead with examples

<Jennie> Jeanne: I know there is a group working on critical errors, and I wrote this back in October

<Jennie> ...since then we have done a lot more work on dividing up the issues

<Jennie> ...I am happy to go with that group's proposal

<Jennie> ...In regards to counting the passes - I am trying to set it up so that is not needed

<Jennie> ...You can have tools that count the instances, but not as the tester

<Jennie> ...Critical error would give a score of zero percent

<Jennie> ...Without one, (reads from the document)

<Jennie> ...This does require tool makers to count the elements

<Jennie> ...Otherwise the test remains the same as today

<Jennie> ...First example

<Jennie> ...If the view has no critical errors, it would pass

<Jennie> ...Second example

<Jennie> ...(reads from the document)

<Jennie> ...This would fail

<Jennie> ...I would like to point out I did not work with any subgroups about this

<Jennie> ...These were my examples

<Jennie> ...Clear words (reads from document)

<Jennie> ...I made this up, the subgroup may have a very different idea

<Jennie> ...I looked at Silverwriter

<Jennie> ...(reads the calculation from the document)

<Jennie> ...I gave an example in the document

<Jennie> ...I did the same thing with a video without captions and an accessible transcript

<Jennie> ...The 1st example (reads from the document)

<Jennie> ...The 2nd example (reads from the document)

<Jennie> GreggVan: Very interesting.

<Jennie> ...View: you said you are going to view vs page

<Jennie> ...WCAG2ICT we tried to make view work, and we never could

<Jennie> ...You have a view, you click on something and it expands

<Jennie> ...1 page could have 10,000 views

<Jennie> ...We were applying it to software

<Jennie> ...That is a great idea, but we couldn't figure out how to make it work

<Jennie> ...Percent score: you are talking about the percent of failures - which could be gamed

<JF> +1 to Gregg

<Jennie> ...You can put a lot of images at the bottom with alt text

<Jennie> ...The content no longer needs alt text

<JF> "...there is a possibility that the system may be gamed in order to make a conformance claim. For example, a site with many additional spacer images with appropriate null alt will more easily meet higher threshold values for the ratings.“(Adobe - https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/400)

<Jennie> ...When you talk about percent: 95% of the building is accessible. Is that good enough?

<Jennie> ...Or 95% of a cafeteria is accessible - is that enough?

<Jennie> ...The critical errors might help with this

<Jennie> ...You did talk about a critical error being any functional image, and later you said meaningful images

<Jennie> ...A chart or diagram is not functional, so that is something to think about

<Jennie> ...For the caption example, that would need to be a critical error

<Jennie> Chuck: I am assuming you will mark these questions down for later

<Jennie> JF: I have a couple of concerns. Greg called out the counting concern

<Jennie> ...We have heard from multiple people (including a DHS tester and Adobe) that this will be problematic because it can be gamed

<Jennie> ...I was concerned about the tool vendors requirement for counting - this assumes everyone will have a tool

<Jennie> ...Will there be a free and open source tool?

<Jennie> ...We have not created tools before

<Jennie> ...If this is part of a scoring mechanism, we should provide one

<Jennie> ...I am concerned about the functional image testing

<Jennie> ...I can have alt equals button - how useful this is...

<Jennie> ...The whole section around clear words, I have concerns about the list of common words

<Jennie> ...Who creates the list? Impact on internationalization

<Jennie> ...I appreciate the effort here

<Jennie> ...I am concern that lots will prove to be difficult to impelement

<Jennie> Wilco: Tools currently really don't agree on what is an image, what is on the screen, what is off screen...

<Jennie> ...Doing this in a consistent way requires a new category of tools that do not exist today - a big ask

<JF> +1 to Wilco

<Jennie> ...We have nothing like this today

<MelanieP> +1 to Wilco

<Jennie> ...This makes me uncomfortable

<Jennie> JonA: In terms of an image - what is an image?

<Jennie> ...An SVG? Icon?

<Jennie> Chuck: Jon is on mute

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say is there a definition of "functional image"

<laura> +1 to JF. Same holds true for quality of not only alt text but quality of captioning.

<Jennie> ...If you have more to say, please put yourself back on cue

<Jennie> mgower: Images are maybe their own outlier

<Jennie> ...Is there a definition of functional image?

<Jennie> ...Also, the automated tool is relatively possible to detect images

<GreggVan> Trace has created or commissioned 3 free tools to allow provisions in WCAG. Agree with JF but I would not think we should not do the right thing for lack of a free tool. That doesn't mean we know how to create these tools - but we should think about free versions of tools - before tossing out a good idea. That said - we should not solve problems with imaginary tools as JA said.

<Jennie> ...understanding when the image serves a purpose is different

<Jennie> ...I think that we can marry what can be automatically tested with consistency

<Zakim> GN, you wanted to say that counting by tool relies on automated tests, while many Accessibility tests are manual

<Jennie> ...I determined by doing this...my protocol was this...

<Jennie> GN: I am also struggling with the coutning

<Jennie> ...Counting images with a tool could be possible

<Jennie> ...For several requirements we have automatic tests

<jon_avila> Did my conversation come through?

<Jennie> ...Color contrast on visual indicators

<Jennie> ...1st one has to judge which lines need contrast

<AWK> @jon - just the first sentence

<Jennie> ...This needs to be decided by a human

<Jennie> ...It has to be counted manually: error prone, huge burden

<Jennie> ...I would rather not count, and just go through the severity

<Jennie> ...blocker? hurdle with a work around? kind of an inconvenience

<Wilco> +1, number of issues + severity

<JF> "...as a certified trusted tester in the DHS Accessibility Test Process for Web, using the measure of "a percentage of overall instances" to obtain this data will be problematic. It would be burdensome to expect a manual test process to "count" all the instances where a test condition applies.“

<Jennie> Chuck: AWK may be muted

<JF> (Ann Marie Davis - https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/275)

<Jennie> ...We are meeting regularly

<Jennie> ...reach out to JF and myself regarding the protocols call

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to mention JF's efforts on protocols

<jon_avila> We need to have scoring around what is a functionally required or not - as this could move score from 0 to 95.

<Jennie> Chuck: The value in the comments will help the chairs decide how to have a more broad conversation

<Jennie> ...Thank you Jeanne, and all commentors

<JF> "Any single "critical error" results in a score of "very poor" for that outcome and also results in an inability to reach bronze level as an overall score. This seems unreasonable for large-scale websites and applications and negates all of the work that may have been done to meet the outcome." (IBM - https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/477)

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that the percentage should be whatever it is, and if there is a critical error it fails. Gives better information to teams doing fixes.

<jeanne> Thanks for the comments. :)

<jon_avila> People today don't agree on what is a functional image and what would actually cause a critical error or not.

<Jennie> Chuck: We are moving on to Alastair G

<Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVCPcfyfnjm2RJRvgV5pbcQLwzxXKHw66V7R-OW3wiE/edit

<Jennie> ...He has a proposal specific to measuring alt text

<Jennie> Agarrison: I will run through the information

<jon_avila> Counting images is a challenge as we don't have a consistent mechanism to determine what are images - svgs, canvas, role img, img, poster images, video, etc.

<Jennie> Agarrison: (displaying the Measuring Alt Text Quality document)

<Jennie> ...I put together a short paper in response to the call out a few weeks ago

<JF> +1 Jon - on a personal level I think counting is a rabbit hole that we should try to avoid

<Jennie> ...I will read through it

<Jennie> ...(reads through the document)

<Jennie> ...We have just heard that color contrast will not be achieved

<Jennie> ...People used to think flying machines would not be possible, but this was achieved in a few years from the statement

<Jennie> ...I always try to keep a question mark as to what capabilities will be available

<Jennie> ...Measuring alt text is not a 1 size fits all approach

<Jennie> ...Images need to be categorized

<Jennie> ...I have split the W3C decision tree

<Jennie> ...Images of text, complex images, informative images, decorative images (and a few others he read)

<Jennie> ...Machine learning - categorization confidence

<Jennie> ...Functional images can have image recognition, optical character recognition (continues reading from document)

<Jennie> ...Informative images showing images: (reads from document)

<Jennie> ...Decorative - I do not have any. Just like the W3C decision tree, this is a catch all mechanism

<Jennie> ...These are just suggestions

<Jennie> ...There will be others used over time

<Jennie> ...The process

<Jennie> ...Needs to be done in a sequence - use a discrimination tree

<Jennie> ...then you stop using the rest of the decision tree

<Jennie> ...Look at each category in order

<Jennie> ...With decorative being looked at last

<Jennie> ...I do suggest that the W3C start to amalgamate more

<Jennie> ...If there are central data sets -

<Francis_Storr> note that the WHATWG HTML spec now also includes a concept of an "ancillary image": https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/images.html#ancillary-images

<Jennie> ...Training against the same dataset

<Jennie> ...Then others may also throw their images into that dataset

<Jennie> ...This could reduce bias

<Jennie> ...Looking at functional images

<Jennie> ...You ask the W3C to collect thousands of images

<Jennie> ...You can group these images in a big dataset with labels

<Jennie> ...using a standardized label for all images that represent a printer

<Jennie> ...You do this because if you have a standardized set of labels

<Jennie> ...You will be able to easily decide if they have an appropriate alt text

<Jennie> ...Characterization would determine if they are functional and what the associated label should be

<Jennie> ...Informative images showing a single famous object

<Jennie> ...You could thousands of images for these

<Jennie> ...like a Google search

<Jennie> ...If using a picture of the Mona Lisa

<Jennie> ...(2nd paragraph)

<Jennie> ...You determine if this is an image of the famous image or not

<Jennie> ...Then you assess if the text alternative is representative

<Jennie> ...Complex images

<Jennie> ...W3C collect thousands of images

<Jennie> ...These are not just for machines, but could train an army of humans to do the same job

<Jennie> ...the categorization would be to determine if it is a chart or graph

<Jennie> ...Is the data correctly represented

<Jennie> ...This is a Draconion move, but it makes it much more automatically testable

<david-macdonald> @shadi Thx

<Jennie> ...If it is linked to a data table, that is half of a good test

<Jennie> ...There is a whole lot of work being done on data extraction from charts

<Jennie> ...In the future you would be able to automate this

<Jennie> ...For images of text, each requires a different mechanism

<Jennie> ...All complex images containing text should already be removed

<Jennie> ...(reads from the doc the W3C decision tree quote)

<Jennie> ...There are two types of text detection

<Jennie> ...Both work in a different way

<Jennie> ...EAST is for text not presented in a typical manner

<Jennie> ...EAST is designed to pull out text from billboards, or text on a book in the image

<Jennie> ...Optical Character Recognition is just for typical text to be extracted

<Jennie> ...If you run both against images you are able to tell the text within the image in both the typical format and the atypical format

<Jennie> ...We are only looking for typical text

<Jennie> ...This van has lots of words written all over it

<Jennie> ...This is not a text image

<Jennie> ...Using these two methods we can isolate which to categorize as a text image

<Jennie> ...Informative images of objects

<Jennie> ...W3C should find general objects

<Jennie> ...There are existing datasets for this

<Jennie> ...This area is where a metric called SPICE comes in

<Jennie> ...Tests how good the generation of alt text is

<Jennie> ... I have reformulated this for informative images

<Jennie> ...(reads from the document)

<JF> From the document: "If a context specific alt text description is provided it becomes useless when viewed out of context; however if a non-context specific alt text description is provided it remains equally useful in both contexts." I challenge that assertion

<Jennie> ...Wilco asked me some questions about context and other pieces

<Jennie> ...In terms of context

<Jennie> ...The context the image sits within I think should be not considered

<Jennie> ...Article it sits within is the intended context

<Jennie> ...When the image is searched is the unintended context

<Jennie> ...Alt text that works in both contexts would be helpful

<Jennie> ...(reads from the document)

<Jennie> ...(reads information related to image of 2 dogs running after a ball)

<Jennie> ...The other question was why not include adjectives or names?

<Jennie> ...They don't form the backbone of the scene

<Jennie> ...The big picture summarization is where? What objects? What are they doing?

<Jennie> ...Looking at the dogs - if you called people on the phone and asked them to draw this photo from the alt text

<Jennie> ...they could

<Jennie> ...They can make inferences

<Jennie> ...If instead the description focuses on names, like Bob and Jack

<Jennie> ...This provides a different image for the person hearing that description

<Jennie> ...More adjectives would provide some aspects of the images, but not others

<Jennie> ...Categorization of such an image: does it contain recognizable objects?

<Jennie> ...You try to analyze the relationship between the objects

<Jennie> ...You then label them

<Jennie> ...example dog 1, dog 2

<Jennie> ...Then you have a ball

<Jennie> ...(reads from document)

<Jennie> ...You can then formulate what you expect your alt text to have

<Jennie> ...(reads from document)

<Jennie> ...You can then measure your alt text

<Jennie> ...Look at the list we generated - we can determine which pieces of the alt text existed in our list

<Jennie> ...It is missing a number of things we said should be included

<Jennie> ...It is missing 4 vital pieces of information

<Jennie> ...So the alt score can be measured

<Jennie> ...Once you have gone through the list, and if you determine it is decorative

<Jennie> ...I have included a revamped version of the W3C's alt decision tree

<Jennie> ...into a simple decision tree format

<Jennie> ...You can run through this manually

<Jennie> ...to assess and measure your alternative text for an image

<Jennie> ...Caveat: this is not the only way to do this

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about context

<Jennie> JF: Thank you for this Alastair

<Jennie> ...Lots of good thinking here

<Jennie> ...I agree, machine learning will improve over time

<Jennie> ...I don't think we are near where we need to be today

<Jennie> ...for conformance measuring

<Jennie> ...Under complex images you reference a dataset of charts and graphs

<Jennie> ...Another type would be infographics

<Jennie> ...This is usually a large graphic file

<Jennie> ...This requires a long description

<Jennie> ...I am concerned about this

<Jennie> ...The context piece bothers me

<Jennie> ...Specificity of age of shoes may be esssential in certain use cases - I don't think articial intelligence will be able to determine when to include this

<Jennie> ...In context the most important elements in other images can be that it is a selfie, not the object the person is in front of

<Jennie> ...Artificial intelligence will get us a long way, but I think that context will be an issue

<Jennie> ...I am also concerned about the datasets - who will compile them? Host them? It is a lot to ask the W3C to do

<Jennie> Agarrison: this is designed as a manual process that is meant to be machine learned

<Jennie> ...I agree that infographics is not included in the complex graphics - we could include that somewhere along the line

<Jennie> ...For the selfie example: this would be under the secondary informative image

<Jennie> ...This would be the focus of the alt text

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to change scribes

I can try never done before

scribe Regina

<Jennie> Scribe cheat sheet https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribing_Commands_and_Related_Info

<jaunita_george> +1

John: Eiffell towerprimary focus in the image

<GN015> Sorry, I have to drop

<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say this is an interesting jumping off point for evaluating quality of some of the more subjective content

John: it's not the primary meaning in the screen

<mbgower> Great work, Alistair!

Rachael: sugg content recognizing the value

<JF> +1 to Rachael

<Lauriat> +1 to Rachael, very helpful write-up!

kirkwood greatexample
… that would be the most important thing
… context be careful on the idea and subjectivity

<JF> +1 to John K

<Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to ask about text alternatives that serve equivalent purpose versus grading alt text

alaistairc with many images impossible to add information

<Jemma> this presentation was giving me alternative perspective to think about alt text I never imanged for me. thanks for great presentation, Aistair!!

<JF> but... if accuracy of alt text is only 80%, what is the impact of that on persons with COGA issues?

Wilco looks solutions in user agents
… potential of some development and testing
… implement new technologies

<Jennie> +1 to JF. I was thinking about how to consider the importance of weighting the scoring to describe relationships of elements rather than just the specific elements.

alastairc not necessary testing to hundred of images

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that an SC on captioning important images may be warranted

mbgower required of captions programatically
… providing ALT text automatically
… provide captions to images

Review Writing Testable WCAG 3.0 Outcomes Survey

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/testable-outcomes-2021-12-2/results

chuck describing the agenda and survey results
… Mary longer agree statements regarding editorial changes

wilco some putuation suggestions

chuck agree in some of the comments
… pages to be tested
… just a sample
… become more complicated

chuck reading comments from survey

wilco add a list of standards of terms

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: AGWG approves amended Writing Testable WCAG 3.0 Outcomes for internal use

<Rachael> +1

<Jemma> I agree with Chuck's approach

chuck proposing the resolution

<laura> +1

+1

<bbailey> +1

<Wilco> +1

<jeanne> +1

<Nicaise> +1

<ToddL> +1

<jaunita_george> +1

<Francis_Storr> +1

<mbgower> +1

not sure where to find it

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: AGWG approves amended Writing Testable WCAG 3.0 Outcomes for internal use

RESOLUTION: AGWG approves amended Writing Testable WCAG 3.0 Outcomes for internal use

ACT New Rules (30 min) https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/act_nov_10/

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/act_nov_10/results

Question 1 - Form field has non-empty accessible name

chuck reading questions Form field has non-empty accessible name
… 7 approved, 2 with comments, 1 not approve
… reading Oliver Comment from documents
… reading Gundula Nieman's comment about not backdoors rules

chuck reading Wilco comments

thbrunet something is disable it will be a fail when shows

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept publishing "Form field has non-empty accessible name"

<Rachael> +1

<jaunita_george> +1

<Wilco> +1

<Chuck> +1

<thbrunet> +1

<ToddL> +1

<JF> +1

<Azlan> +1

<jeanne> +1

<laura> +1

<JakeAbma> +1

+1

<Nicaise> +1

<bbailey> +1

<Raf> +1

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept publishing "Form field has non-empty accessible name"

<Francis_Storr> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept publishing "Form field has non-empty accessible name"

<mbgower> +1

Question 2 - Attribute has valid value

chuck: attribute has valid value
… 7 people agree
… Wilco responding to Rochelle
… Oliver said samples will fail

JF question about autocomplete
… modify this rule to include the attribute

wilco I don't think we are going to use it
… About Rochelle comment
… we are not doing it anymore it's not applicable
… rule is the same
… it's not failure

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

<Rachael> Fair enough, as stated, I will not object to the exisiting langauge

<Wilco> +1

<jaunita_george> +1

<AWK> +1

<thbrunet> +1

<Rachael> +1

<Chuck> +1

<bbailey> +1

<mbgower> +1

<JakeAbma> +1

+1

<laura> +1

<Francis_Storr> +1

<Azlan> +1

<jon_avila> +0

<JF> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

<kirkwood> +1

jon_avila it's not a field requiere use to autocomplete
… because the whole is predictable

<AWK> +1 to Jon - he's right

JF values do somehting
… if you put the autocomplete value it will autofill
… wrong value autofill the wrong information

wilco first assumption
… if autocomplete color
… role attribute is used

<JF> + to ask if there is a companion rule for misuse?

<alastairc> I don't think that would be a fail

JF a lot of rules in place

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask if JA objects to the rule?

<Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues

chuck asking objecting to the rule?

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask if this rule is fully automated?

awk automate rule or manual review?

wilco this is fully automated

awk about the user

wilco this make more difficult automate it

awk there is extra cases would represent problems when filling a form
… for autocomplete values
… it's a usability issue not a failure but a discovered thing

<JF> it's also an author failure

chuck still provide value
… provide meaningful information

Jon create a false positive

<alastairc> +1, it could bring up false-fails without scoping to the user-info.

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

chuck some hesitation with this rule

<jaunita_george> +1

wilco every rule has tested
… bu looking people reporting false positives
… we consider not a big deal
… false positive are reported

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

<Chuck> +0

chuck interesting conversation to review

<Wilco> +1

<Rachael> +1 It is informative content so I believe we can update if needed

<jon_avila> +0

<bbailey> +1

+

<jaunita_george> +1

<JF> @Wilco - issue #1768

<Chuck> +.5

<jeanne> +1

<AWK> +.5

<alastairc> +1, but would like to know where to report false positive cases...

<JF> +1

<JakeAbma> +.5

RESOLUTION: Accept "Attribute has valid value"

<kirkwood> +.5

<Wilco> @awk, you can report them to ACT-R, or to any of the implementors if you're using any tool / methodology using ACT.

Question 3 - Element marked as decorative is not exposed

<Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues

chuck third question
… 6 people approved
… reading comments about image and attributes

awk concerns about about image presentation

wilco you can fail this
… elements can have role attributes
… nad have it not being applied
… there are scenarios where it could be ignored
… could have role none and be ignored and considerated a failure
… this rule may fail in some scenarios

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept amended "Element marked as decorative is not exposed"

<Chuck> +1

<jaunita_george> +1

<Wilco> +1

<bbailey> +1

<Raf> +1

+1

<JF> +1

<Azlan> +1

<AWK> +0

<Nicaise> +1

<JakeAbma> +1

awk there is not conflict putting in a row

chuck Andrew are you objecting?

AWK this rule about element decorative in some way but not being exposed,
… things marked decorative are exposed

<alastairc> +1, some of those fails are indicative of some nouanced accessibility tree points, not bothered by the obvious passes.

<thbrunet> img[alt=""] is listed as role 'img' by Chrome. Pass 4 indicates it's 'none'. Is Chrome wrong?

wilco aria label and ALT empty

JF: about the relationship between attributes aria label and ALT

thbrunet in chrome images

<Wilco> https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/#el-img-empty-alt

wilco it's about html
… how html is done

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept amended "Element marked as decorative is not exposed"

RESOLUTION: Accept amended "Element marked as decorative is not exposed"

Question 4 - Letter spacing in style attributes is not important

chuck reading from document
… 5 people agreed

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Letter spacing in style attributes is not important"

<Wilco> +1

<Chuck> +1

<jeanne> +1

<JF> +1

<Rachael> +1

<JakeAbma> +1

+1

<ToddL> +1

<Azlan> +1

<mbgower> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept "Letter spacing in style attributes is not important"

Question 5 - Word spacing in style attributes is not important

chuck no objections

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept "Word spacing in style attributes is not important"

<Chuck> +1

<jaunita_george> +1

<Rachael> +1

<Azlan> +1

<Wilco> +1

+1

<JakeAbma> +1

<JF> +1

<alastairc> +!

<jon_avila> +1

<ToddL> +1

<alastairc> +1 even

<Nicaise> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept "Word spacing in style attributes is not important"

Focus appearance https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-focus-appearance-enhanced2/

Question 1 - Focus Appearance complexity #1842

chuck going to questions

Focus appearance & Visual examples #2071

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-focus-appearance-enhanced2/results#xq26

<Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: Accept amended response to address issue 2071

<jaunita_george> +1

<MelanieP> +1

<Chuck> +1

<Wilco> +1

<Rachael> +1

<ToddL> +1

<Jemma> +1

<JakeAbma> +1

<bbailey> +1

sorry I was kick out of the site

<JF> bye all

thanks!

<Azlan> Bye all

<Jemma> /me thanks everyone for all the great discusison.