Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference -- 19 Sep 2019

<scribe> Scribe: Chuck

<Jennie> * yes, thanks!

<AWK> We are going to scribe lightly as Andrew is documenting questions/issues/tasks for different SC at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.xiycc7mrk89l

<KimD> me/ I'm freaked

Andrew: Essential controls... next is custom interactions.

AWK: Where from?

Custom Interactions

<AWK> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ouVFq4w-i0rchNHtTAG_JoRwHfYm9mN2MkxFBct1JSI/

<david-macdonald> I hear alastair fine

<david-macdonald> oops 2.2

David, I'll call attention to your request.

<david-macdonald> @alastair... thanks.

<alastairc> Questions are being recorded here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#

<Jemma_> +q

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say I've been having questions about gestures lately, and this raises them

<AWK> Questions/notes are recorded here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.xiycc7mrk89l

<Jemma_> +1 to mbgower's suggestion for documenting the keyboard, gesture actions.

<AWK> rrsagrent, draft minutes

<mbgower> My points were on three things: 1) this kind of guidance saying to document interaction is useful, but we don't have it for keyboard as an SC. So it seems a bit odd to have it only for gestures.

<Jemma_> thanks for your summary, mbgower

<alastairc> mbgower - this SC is aimed at both

<Jemma_> it was not clear to me that this SC is aimed at both at first hand.

<alastairc> we've focused on gestures as that's a key scenario, but it was changed to allow for both.

<Jemma_> thanks for your explanation.

<mbgower> 2) the history of keyboard interaction guidance in wcag seems based on an assumption that the OS supplies the means for a user to not need to use more than one 'finger' at a time (i.e., sticky keys). We don't provide an equivalent to the Pointer Gestures SC for keyboard, because the assumption is the OS handles it.

<mbgower> 3) I think it would be an idea to identify what gestures are made accessible at the OS level by the main mobile/touch platforms. That can help inform our decision on what constitutes custom (and poses a challenge to someone who is able to do gestures on a device via the OS a11y features)

<Jennie> * Jennie I'm here for find help, and can be here for about a half hour

RESOLUTION: More work will be required on this SC.

Find Help

<alastairc> Ordering: Find help, then epub SCs.

<david-macdonald> can u hear me

<AWK> Notes recorded at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.k2791lcrtdbb

<alastairc> Find help doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fX4Iw169OGUny5RTd70S8qAneYy5e0hr7zupE21gPBM/edit

<david-macdonald> ok I'l check it out... epub folks are interested... I'll let them know we're next (Aveneesh, etc..)

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say concerns with documenting keyboard and gestures

<Jennie> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fX4Iw169OGUny5RTd70S8qAneYy5e0hr7zupE21gPBM/edit#heading=h.c1ri43umkho0

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that I see this as an extension of Consistent Navigation

<mbgower> Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web pages within a set of Web pages occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user.

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#consistent-navigation

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.k2791lcrtdbb|

<Zakim> KimD, you wanted to ask whether a link to the info would meet this?

<mbgower> On another topic. we may want to think about adding that personalization consideration Katie mention as a conformance requirement?

https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#consistent-navigation

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fX4Iw169OGUny5RTd70S8qAneYy5e0hr7zupE21gPBM/edit#heading=h.c1ri43umkho0

<Jemma_> +q I agree with putting help info in a consistent location through navigation system(like that of mbgower's suggetion). however, requiring it to be "on every page" will be restricting the room for info architect and designers' expertise.

<Jemma_> who is here?

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about very large and very small sites.

<david-macdonald> Is having a link to <a href...>contact</a> ok?

<alastairc> Katie: Adding the 'set of pages' makes sense. Having this doesn't seem to go beyond the genuine footers in most places,

<alastairc> ... maybe we want a limit on the size of org/site? TRicky

<alastairc> ... other q, are we trying to determine the full language, what's the level?

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to share examples and to speak to PDF documents

<Jemma_> +1 for Andrew's example - book reader view

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that the definition is: set of web pages collection of web pages that share a common purpose and that are created by the same author, group or

<alastairc> Scenario: Completing a form, go to a next page, then getting stuck and looking around for help and going elsewhere is a problem.

<alastairc> Jake: Trying to connect the dots, seems intent is all about quality of help provided across situations, not the way you get there.

<Jemma_> I think the group agree with Kim about adding help for transaction process like that of form.

<Fazio> This SC goes beyond acessibility

<alastairc> Nicaise: Andrew spoke to this a bit, needs to scope so not every website is included, e.g. list of receipes. Perhaps a 'where human contact is available'.

<Zakim> Fazio, you wanted to add to Andrew's comment

<alastairc> +1 to the comments, where you may be a small business.

<alastairc> Fazio: Seems like an over-arching, really broad, burdonsom on businesses which seems unreasonable.

<mbgower> +1 this is an identified need. Look at Consistent Navigation. This is very similar.

<Zakim> Ryladog, you wanted to say I see ? icons for help through forms, so that is one path and need

<Fazio> my real world example is the courses page on my LMS

<Fazio> can't have a help button in the middle of a course page

<mbgower> The exception is sort of circular, though

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that every desktop application has a help menu. Almost every website has one of these features

<Jemma_> I agree with Mbgower

<Jennie> * Thank you for the feedback. Signing off.

<AWK> Rachael, want to put your comment into IRC?

<Rachael> sure. The only situation where I think help isn't needed is straight informational, static content pages.

<alastairc> Scenarios to consider: Large Gov sites with many sub-sections run by different people (with different contacts/helps), Running a revolution. Ecomerce site, going through a long form, basic blog, avoiding contact.

<AWK> Also PDF documents, EPUB

<david-macdonald> The SCs I wrote up were Icon Descriptions, Visual Indicators, and the 2 epub SCs. I'll be going to bed either after the epubs or if the SCs I worked on are up after that I'll hang on... have to teach tomorrow AM.

Page break navigation

<Jemma_> https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F028E8A4E0410BA7!135444&ithint=file%2cpptx&authkey=!AHs1ICU7Qe7IJgU

<Jemma_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12Zn0_TGcqrM-L_wb0PIFHM4AnHJ64wPsucZyRGlf2Fg/edit#heading=h.lzf4y8kl3i61

<Jemma_> https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F028E8A4E0410BA7!135444&ithint=file%2cpptx&authkey=!AHs1ICU7Qe7IJgU

<AWK> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.31e79lkenrsj

<Jemma_> +jamesn

<alastairc> Question: Are these hard or soft page breaks?

<alastairc> Romain: To do with layout, the hard ones that match print pubs are what we mean.

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say is there any situations where page breaks aren't sequential?

<mbgower> visual and/or programmatic markers that are presented sequentially across a set of pages to indicate the location of a page...

<mbgower> My understanding is that this is intended to allow a hardcopy to be referencable by a dynamic version of the content and vice versa

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that the definition seems to be for "page breaks" not "page break indicator"

<Jemma_> +q what about ebook reader cases, not only font size variation Katie mentioned? for example, kindle page break/numbering is different from original page break numbers...

<Jemma_> +q to ask about about ebook reader cases, not only font size variation Katie mentioned? for example, kindle page break/numbering is different from original page break numbers...

<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say this sounds more like a user agent requirement than a content requirement

<Lauriat> +1 to James for the ebook case

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say I wonder if this could be abstracted a bit: Fixed Reference Points

<mbgower> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to say that this intended experience seems extremely tightly scoped to ebooks and should either specify that scope or take into account other types of

<Ryladog> to say can we craft this like Page Titled, but where content uses pagination, that a Page Numbered, based on the authored content, can be identified (could work for slides too)

<alastairc> Lauriat: Noting that it seems v specific to epub. E.g. GDocs didn't have page breaks/numbers. Has it now, but headings are primary method.

<Zakim> Ryladog, you wanted to say can we craft this like Page Titled, but where content uses pagination, that a page number, based on the authored content, can be identified

<Jemma_> +1 to support shawn's example, users navigate the doc by headings often. heading is also part of landmark role in ARIA

<mbgower> I just moved the " even when formatting or platform changes" to part of the definition of "fixed reference points"

<Ryladog> to say can we craft this like Page Titled, but where content uses pagination, that a Page Numbered, based on the authored content, can be identified (could work for slides too) and navigated to

<alastairc> Romain: Intent is specifically to tag pages. An alternative to TOC. Important in edu context.

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to speak to web-based readers would be where the navigation would be required and that we may need to define page-based

<Jemma_> +q to romain -I know we had already discussed this - will be the page number the same in kindle and other e-reader platform?

<Ryladog> Where where content uses pagination, that a Page Numbered, based on the authored content, can be identified (could work for slides too) and navigated to

<Zakim> Jemma_, you wanted to romain -I know we had already discussed this - will be the page number the same in kindle and other e-reader platform?

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say a real problem with the existing wording is that it assumes an authoritive page order. Just having page numbers doesn't make them fixed. For instance

<alastairc> acl al

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about the intended scenario for 'navigation'

<Jemma_> I am debating with the scope, "paginationed contents(Katie's)" vs "reader based content pagination(Andrew's)"

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to say that explicit page breaks does not equate useful navigation semantics.

<david-macdonald> I think saying epub might work

<AWK> @Romain, can you provide a link to a book like the one you mentioned?

<alastairc> Romain: Not only for epub, there are other books published on the web with multipage & TOC, also published in print. Also some abookapart books published on the web, would like to see

<alastairc> Jeremy keith book: https://resilientwebdesign.com/

<alastairc> DAvid - could you allow coments/editing on the doc?

<alastairc> mbgower - Set of pages might not work for a 'book', which is essentially one page.

<alastairc> Perhaps across 'a resources'

<alastairc> resource even

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say I have abstracted mine even more to accommodate timestamps in a transcript, etc

<alastairc> Romain: Don't want a situation where nav by heading is enough, that language might be ambigous?

<alastairc> Is it any or all fixed ref points?

<alastairc> Need a strong def

RESOLUTION: continue working on page break navigation

Page Break Locators

RESOLUTION: Continue working on page break locators

Information In Steps

<AWK> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fX4Iw169OGUny5RTd70S8qAneYy5e0hr7zupE21gPBM/edit

RESOLUTION: Leave Open

Visual Indicators

<AWK> SC Proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U/edit

<AWK> Notes at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.gxq1hf5hzy61

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say is that supposed to be user interface component (a defined term)? What does interactive signify?

<alastairc> Jake: Having to clear my mind from affordances.

<mbgower> I just threw in "active" in first sentence to address that.

<Jemma_> I am not sure whether "visual affordance" is the concept which can be easily understood by majority of people who are using the spec. in other word, is it one of plain languages?

<Rachael> textboxes without a border

<mbgower> buttons without a border

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask for a demo of some examples that fail this

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about the factors & research

<JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CFNxozlyO1lmiyRVCFuhQ_0t2c5QTLskY03CCeTpUuA/edit#slide=id.g59fb189588_0_187

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about research findings and external attributes like position and space.

<alastairc> Shawn: We'll get questions around the evidence for this.

<alastairc> ... does this also speak to affordance about what kind of control it is? E.g. button next to an input with the same text in each, what would it involve?

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say "space around the object" is pretty nebulous. I'm not sure how you can define sufficient white space without getting prescriptive (as in the Target Size

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to agree that we need to have solid research to support this

<mbgower> There is a lot of user research going on by our designers right now on visual and interaction design. I think providing guidance/considerations is worthy, but get really worried about anything too prescriptive.

<Fazio> AAC

<Fazio> Alternative Augmentative Communication devices have applicable research

<alastairc> Rachael - yes, please do. Screengrabs of specific examples are also very useful

<alastairc> Rachael (and everyone), I suspect the scale needed would be similar or more than this for examples: https://alastairc.uk/tests/wcag21-examples/non-text-contrast.html

<alastairc> We're heading to lunch now, back in 55 min. (1:30 local

<AWK> Breaking for lunch. back at 1:30, 55 minutes from now.

Information in steps

<AWK> Notes at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.42q6ukg70qfr

<AWK> Proposal at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e46eqQnVYqdSyqo29pyJoY1QynRH9v95YW8soTTbfsU/edit

<Zakim> Makoto, you wanted to say let me check if there is any research and domo arigato

<mbgower> Information requested from the user in one step of a multi-step process is not requested...

<Rachael> example: new password verification

<mbgower> Trimmed it down even more: "Information requested from a user in a multi-step process is not requested in a subsequent step..."

<Rachael> or a password request that it is still you later in the process

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e46eqQnVYqdSyqo29pyJoY1QynRH9v95YW8soTTbfsU/edit

<mbgower> Information obtained from a user in a multi-step process

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say strip out the preamble to read ' Information requested from the user in one step of a multi-step process is not requested...

<AWK> SC 2.4.5 "More than one way is available to locate a Web page within a set of Web pages except where the Web Page is the result of, or a step in, a process."

<mbgower> the "or provided to" phrase needs a parallel change on the second half of the system. Something like 'does not need to be re-entered in a subsequent...'

<Jemma_> to ask what is the utillity of "exception" in every SC? "Exception" is trying to address any technical challenges to meet the SC or non scope related application of the specific SC.

<Jemma_> or exception menans not essential?

<mbgower> Information provided to or obtained from a user in a multi-step process does not need to be re-entered in a subsequent step unless re-entry is essential.

<AWK> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AKPU3M3R/

<mbgower> got it down to 2 lines :)

<Jemma_> +1 for shortened version

<stevelee> +1

+1 for shortened version

<mbgower> The bigger question to me is what constitutes a 'subsequent step'

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say password is arguably essential

<mbgower> I'm okay leaving it alone for now. But we will need to tackle 'multi-step' at some time

<alastairc> Nicaise: Could we provide example of something that isn't essential in the doc?

<AWK> 2.5.6 and 3.3.3

<mbgower> +1 to providing examples of essential in Understanding

<mbgower> I'm happy with the progress on this. Agree we need more examples to think through nuances.

<alastairc> Fazio: Also breaks down cognitive [something something]

<alastairc> ... which makes it harder to fill in forms that keep asking the same info

RESOLUTION: Looking for additional use cases.

Visible Labels

<Zakim> Ryladog, you wanted to suggest key name of second SC here: Persistent Cues or Persistent Labels

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say concerned with the instructions needing to persist. Some instructions may be triggered by user error, etc

<mbgower> We also have to be VERY careful to not confuse <label> with label

<alastairc> mbgower: Some (dynamic) instructions should not persist.

<alastairc> How about a telephone label (or sort-code) which have one label for multiple fields.

<stevelee> agree

<mbgower> wow, I really hate that definition of label :)

<mbgower> it seems to contradict its first note "A label is presented to all users" How is a text alternative presented to all users?

<Rachael> this one needs a table of possibilities and when it passes or not as well

<mbgower> I'm glad we're tackling this, because it's a hole, but it is fraught with nuance and conflict

<Ryladog> Judyq+

<Ryladog> Judy q+

<alastairc> Another example - where the instructions are provided on-focus which is fine(?)

<Ryladog> -q

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say how about 'Each input has a persistently visible label'

<Rachael> +1 to that approach.

<stevelee> +1 can't think of good reason not to have a label

<AWK> So like this? Labels are provided when content requires user input and labels remain visible.

<mbgower> yep

<mbgower> But I like it more explicit, as per my wording

<AWK> ah, ok

<AWK> Mike's: Each input has a persistently visible label

<mbgower> There are a lot of progressive disclosure patterns where instructions appear as user gets to input, and there are studies showing the validity of that to reduce cognitive load.

Judy +1

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about multiple field things like dates/sort codes

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to say that including instructions in this would then follow Jake's example where use of a placeholder would then fail this SC.

<Lauriat> +1 to Mike's example. Dense fields already require a lot of cognitive load, having persistent instructions for each field would make that worse.

<alastairc> Instructions seems much harder to fit into this SC than labels.

<Rachael> or use a placeholder that moves to remain visible

<mbgower> Yep, KISS. Restrict to labels, which have been a WAY bigger issue, in my experience.

<mbgower> it's a slightly slippery slope. Look at what had to be done in label in name

<Rachael> though I think there is a value to instructions I just don't want to risk the value of visible labels because of the complexity of instructions.

<Rachael> I should have stated that I am speaking for myself with regards to the instructions

<mbgower> Many things can be interpreted as instructions: masks, directions, error suggestions, placeholder text, the one-time info that appears the first time someone uses a site, etc

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say I don't agree with persistent instructions

<Lauriat> +1

<mbgower> There is also another form of instruction that appears in a designated portion of the screen, with the instruction updated based on the input with focus

<Jemma_> +q to ask to confirm the question we are trying to solve using this SC.

<Jemma_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Placeholder_Research

<Lauriat> Interesting quote from the HTML spec on the placeholder attribute https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-placeholder-attribute

<alastairc> acl ala

<AWK> Rachel suggests splitting apart

<Zakim> Jemma_, you wanted to ask to confirm the question we are trying to solve using this SC.

<Lauriat> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1SeO7sez/

RESOLUTION: Review questions, update document.

<alastairc> 20 min!

<mbgower> it starts tonight in Japan!

Orientation (Enhanced)

<AWK> Notes at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqI19P0LUzdpbm1IM2PPhloXjXWHFC9Fo3QjoVQ4Irc/edit#heading=h.hvsgahg23uf3

<AWK> Proposal at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NEDLUWt_VFKtdHhcgm4j-ssWguSGeY8fhdSxm_41WzU/edit

<Lauriat> From https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/orientation.html - "Intent: The intent of this Success Criterion is to ensure that content displays in the orientation (portrait or landscape) preferred by the user. Some websites and applications automatically set and restrict the screen to a particular display orientation and expect that users will respond by rotating their device to match, but this can create problems. Some users have their devices

<Lauriat> mounted in a fixed orientation (e.g. on the arm of a power wheelchair). Therefore, websites and applications need to support both orientations by not restricting the orientation. Changes in content or functionality due to the size of display are not covered by this criteria which is focused on restrictions of orientation."

<AWK> From Issue 70: Content is not locked to a specific orientation, and functionality of the content is operable in all orientations, except where orientation is essential for use of the content.

<Lauriat> Finalized wording: "Content does not restrict its view and operation to a single display orientation, such as portrait or landscape, unless a specific display orientation is essential."

<Jemma_> are we adding this sc as new one?

<Jemma_> alastair: The suggestion is adding this as AAA.

<Jemma_> +1 to Shawn's standing

<stevelee> +1 (totally)

RESOLUTION: Compare to previous understanding update, bring that and the SC back for consideration