Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference -- 03 Sep 2019

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about WBS emailing responses now?

<laura> scribe: Laura

Charter news | https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2019/charter.html

<AWK> +AWK

AC: We have an updated charter.

MC: finished a call from Judy.

<AWK> AC: But not approved by AC yet

<alastairc> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2019/charter.html

MC: moved a sentence from silver.
... from deliverable to scope.
... Judy is tryig to close out some issues.
... Plan is it will go to Advisory Council today.

AC: Ohter than, not not much has changed with it.

TPAC agenda review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019

AC: a bit rough at the moment.
... Morning on group dynamics.
... how we should be behaving on calls etc.
... look though WCAG 2.2 Work
... Afternoon Silver
... Friday will be silver.

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to speak to 2.1 techniques

AC: any comments?

awk: small number of techniques. Would love to get them done before tpac.
... but if not we will have to work on them there.

David: for dialing in. 9-5 Japan time?

AC: yes.
... assuming Web X. won’t know about qualituy until the day.

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2019/09/TPAC/schedule.html#Thursday

awk: 8:30 start Tokyo time.

WCAG 2.1 Techniques and Understanding survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/

Adding exceptions to F40, F41, F54, F58, and (new) F95

<bruce_bailey> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/results#xq20

AC: when adding failures checking for exceptions on the procedure.
... awk check them and this PR addresses them.

awk: added language to address them.
... made things more consistent.

MG: ignore my comment on the survey

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask where to see MG comments?

<bruce_bailey> survey refresh worked now

MG: does meta in latest HTML spec specify number of seconds?
... A redirect that doesn't do it for 10 hours seems nonsensical
... going to be painful.

awk: doesn’t have to display it.

AC: looks like a number is required if it is a refresh…maybe not.

MG: can live with it. if somebody checks before publication.

<alastairc> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/meta#attr-http-equiv

<alastairc> "The number of seconds until the page should be reloaded - only if the content attribute contains a positive integer."

awK: with chrome content =0
... should be okay.

AC: maybe adjust first step of the procedure.

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-author-20110809/the-meta-element.html#attr-meta-content

awk: spec says it includes 0.
... better ways to due it but it doesn’t fail.

AC: slight adjustment to the title?

MG: title has to do with 95.

RESOLVE: Pull Request #879.

RESOLUTION: Accept Pull Request #879.

TOPIIC: Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted

<alastairc> http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-clipping/techniques/failures/text-spacing-clipping

Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted

<bruce_bailey> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/results#xq21

AC: Laura’s comment Suggest not calling out "Stylus" in the procedure.
... Suggest: "In general, this failure occurs when text is presented in a size-constrained block which does not expand if the size of the content increases."
... Need to confirm (with MichaelC) if the CSS would get through the build process. If not, the examples would need to be replaced by images.

MC: No need.

AC: some minor edits.

<david_macdonald> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylus/clngdbkpkpeebahjckkjfobafhncgmne?hl=en

MG: examples don’t render for me.

BB: I had same problem.

MG: maybe use images.

awk: do we need the working example?

david: got code from the other example.
... use images?

AC: good idea.

<david_macdonald> https://www.davidmacd.com/WCAG/fail-1.4.12-a.html

<johnkirkwood> due to a work issue I will need to drop off and cannot scribe the second half sorry

(discussion of examples)

AC: anddrew had a comment regarding procedure that has been addressed.
... took care of Bruce’s and MGs commnets.

MG: In procedure "with the maximum values". I'd recommend removing the work 'maximum'
... Step 2 of procedure: "Check if there are any content is clipped, obscured, or has any loss of content due..." should be "Check if any content is clipped, obscured or lost due..."

<AWK> http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-clipping/techniques/failures/text-spacing-clipping

MG: max can be a lot more.

<mbgower> Check if any content is clipped,g obscured or lost due

<alastairc> "2. Override the CSS on the page using a user style sheet or a browser plugin with the values listed in the success criteria:"

JK: layout problem.

AC: yes it should do that.

David: leave it as is for now?

AC: can live with that.

<Detlev> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept 881 Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted

Failure due to preventing user from overriding text spacing

<alastairc> http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-not-allowed/techniques/failures/text-spacing-not-allowed

<alastairc> scribe:jon_avila

Alastair: not sure this is entirely a failure.

DavidM: not sure of a way to override.

<Detlev> I find it confusing

Alastair: Jake found a way to beat it with bookmarklets
... Boostrap has some help classes. Uses important, etc.
... propose we put this on until we discover anything that would fail.
... does anyone else take it up and test things or just let this stand unpublished at the moment? We have another failure for this SC.

<laura> happy to let it go for now

awk: wanted to thank David for working on these as it gets 25% done to cover remaining 2.1 techniques.

<AWK> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15idlBl1qQTNr2SIi4Drzk1Q1vnWAi5L26GCCv6mjD2g/edit#gid=2133852864

Alastair: text spacing now has failure -- others are identify input purpose

awk: Marc Johlic and John Foliot both have one

Alastair: pointer gestures and motion actuation are the other 2.

WCAG 2.2 SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22reviews/

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22reviews/results

Alastair: leading up TPAC we have a few WCAG 2.2 criteria. Ones in survey are pretty much the last ones in the list that have not had an initial review. Quite a few have been through a review and have been updated.

Dragging

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LaVX-RTaLQL0tN4G3NhOTlmj16swt0VzC7ssaAjqIwg/edit#heading=h.mntlv4jvrc29

alastair: concerns of mine are around developers may say dragging is on the edge of an essential way of doing it. Concern was around where a gesture is dragging.
... our procedure might be to make sure text is understandable and essentially if we can't think of scenarios and spend some time looking for when this is problematic or unreasonable maybe it would be good thing to put up for wider review for other stakeholders and developers to come up with examples.

detlev: The situation of dragging it is straight forward like slider -- it would be easy to add step by step or there is a way to move list items up or down. But there are other cases where there is free form and several containers on page and you could pick up any item in any other container and it gets akward and nasty. You'd have to have separate interface.
... you'd need to separate tricky interface from which are easy.

<alastairc> SC text: "For all functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation, an alternative mode of activation exists that can be operated by a single pointer without lateral movement, unless dragging is essential."

<laura> s/Ohter than, not /Other than that not /

detlev: keyboard interface access avoids adding visual items for moving -- so it's a really different type of thing. Things are more complicated and burden.

<laura> s/qualituy /quality /

Alastair: dragging boxes example was keyboard accessible -- but adding another layer of tapping would complicate it.

Do not rely on user memory

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e46eqQnVYqdSyqo29pyJoY1QynRH9v95YW8soTTbfsU/edit

Alastair: purpose is to not have to remember things from a stepped process.

<laura> s/to due /to do /

<alastairc> SC text: "Information needed later on in activities that require sequential input should be stored, or displayed, as the user proceeds through required tasks. Similarly, contents that are labeled with instructions, and/or sample text, should visibly display that information at all times."

Alastair: David F. has made a good start. This is up for review. Please help review and we will bring it forward for general group review next week anyway.

<laura> s/anddrew /Andrew /

<laura> s/commnets /comments /

Bruce: this looks like it's following Silver style guide -- not looking like SC. Looks like a description.

<laura> s/clipped,g /clipped /

Alastair: David is new at this and looking for help in translation and wants to work from someone from rest of the group. 1 or 2 people from COGA working with the working group.

Bruce: looks like we are just missing little step.

Alastair: Also in survey. Have a look over the next week and think of some way to translate top description into suitable WCAG 2.2 success criteria.

Orientation (Enhanced)

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NEDLUWt_VFKtdHhcgm4j-ssWguSGeY8fhdSxm_41WzU/edit

<david_macdonald> +q

Alastair: current orientation is "don't block orientation" this is "All functionality and operation is available". Jake has put this in as AAA.

DavidM: Suggest at AAA. incredible amount of extra testing.

Alastair: don't have official place to put these. Some have editable permissions and some you have to request.

Affordances

Alastair: last one survey is the most recent. Potential affordance success criteria.

<alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U/

DavidM: genesis of this is that we needed someone to write it up. The COGA team jumped on it in a positive way. Have been going back and forth are active including Rachael.
... Agree with Detlev that it looks solid but there are many ways it can be recognied. In order to make it work we'd need to make a definition for Affordance and we'd have to look at exception areas. For example, may be no need for visual boundary for hit area.
... personal feeling is that we could do it if we are careful with definition and exceptions. Basically now anything that is interactive we are asking for hit area to be identified and there is visible marking identifying it and 3:1 contrast ratio.
... Better to throw it wide first and then tighten up rather than having it to narrow when first proposing.

Alastair: Area of overlap with non-text contrast as it overlaps low vision and COGA. Kept that to not add design elements but making sure there are elements that do have contrast. Affordance goes beyond that to make it unmistakable which things are controls.
... Would try avoid word affordance as it's been abused in UX community and will start arguments. It is also over used.

<mbgower> I suggest "Visual indicator"

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask why "visual indication" does not work

DavidM: Could be something other like hit area or strengthen the existing success criteria on contrast.

Bruce: Could it be said for each interactive component with a visual indication?

DavidM: a visual indication seems like a definition of affordance

Alastair: Visual indicator could be used and would mean that we would not need to define Affordance. Will try and write up thoughts next week.
... Useful to understand Google research on what other things are visual indicators.
... need to be specific on what does and doesn't count such as visual spacing. Also need to consider mechanism for groups of controls. For example, whole group might have indicator but each control might not.

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say maybe we can focus on 'indicators other than text'

MikeG: Focus on more visual indication than just text. Could be underline.
... use of whitespace and visual affordance below 3:1 that could be brought in. Pivot point might be you can't just have text.

<alastairc> Jon: Agree, spacing can change, reflow, text alone is not enough.

Alastair: come back to these next week. Useful for David to have feedback.
... Useful to work on even if it's not addressed in WCAG 2.2 as it will be relevant for Silver.

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to comment on another toipic

MikeG: Procedure questions. Now that 2.1 is close to be populated with techniques. Having people in org pick up techniques. Hard to explain to folks how this happens. For example, we are showing up with latest editors draft from August 9.
... If one assumes that each time the new information is refreshed in an editors draft people assume there are not been other updates. For example, failure technique for status messages when in last week - but there is no link to that and they are not showing up in techniques for 2.1

awk: that one has not been published yet.

<alastairc> Change log? https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/#changelog

awk: Michael will publish.

MikeG: worried about stuff getting lost and it may be difficult to tell status at a glance.

awk: Intent is to do this every Friday. Sometimes that doesn't happen. The editors draft always have what was accepted by the working group.
... For it to be official it has to be published on the WAI WCAG 2.2 techniques directory. That should happen every Friday but requires some manual steps.

Alastair: Updating understanding document by linking through to the technique should happen as it won't show up. But some times the change log is missed.

<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/881

Alastair: A link needs a number. We don't give it a number until it's ready to publish. Andrew or I will update understanding document. Those links build the techniques listing.

AWK: 881 was done but I did not update the change log.

Alastair: Change log is best bet but we do need to make sure it's updated. Need to talk to Michael about some 404 errors as it's adding an extra slash techniques.
... any other questions or comments?
... See you next week. Make sure to present plus. Bye

<laura> thanks. bye.

<alastairc> trackbot end meeting

- DRAFT -

Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

03 Sep 2019

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