<Mike_Elledge> I'll scribe
<jemma> scribe:mike_elledge
awk: Cheap seats are avaialbe until next Tuesday. How many signups?
mg: some issues about registration with credit card
mc: more registrants, but some on call have not yet.
ak: will try to have phone connection, but terrible. Remote attendees probably found challenging.
<jemma> I plan to register.
ak: Hopefully ppl can coem in person.
zakim: next item
ak: variety of techniques here and task forces, but dont' have new ones ready to go.
dm: Auto fill is ready for
preliminary review
... has a pull request in github
mg: If try to assign own reviewers github doesnt' do well
mc: has to do with how
notifications are set by ppl
... clear when I get it, but hard to tell apart
<daivd-macdonald> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/437
dm: tagged for review 437
mc: labeled with "techniques"
dm: will do that
mc: will show up on list now
ak: 436 is the first on the
list
... mike gower, aria role of log. what's needed? Need for
review?
mg: yep. just labelled. no comments yet.
ak: this is 413.
<laura> Does it need 5 +1s for WG review?
ak: ppl should assign to themselves so they can be reviewer.
mg: +1 as reviewer also
ak: putting so i can be reviewer.
mg: wondering if working samples working okay in one browser combination but nto others. Do we enter bugs or list them.
ak: chat log. what's not working.
mg: jaws firefox will not
actually read log
... add component and it is silent.
dm: aria live not supported in all situations.
ak: in past, since there are techniques with vrying levels of support, have technology notes. also have tech support notes to see for different techniques.
<MichaelC> User Agent Support Notes for WCAG Techniques
<MichaelC> (not yet migrated to 2.1 framework)
ak: if support is low, then probably not worth advocating. but if at or browser bug, just document it.
mg: fyi. role of log is poorer support than aria alert.
<MichaelC> ARIA implementation data
ak: all techniques wind up in one file for aria. have to make connection in technique as we built it.
dm: do we want to discuss this technique now?
ak: 436--log.
<jemma> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#log
dm: yes. aria log-role. lumberjacks!
ak: need to get ppl to look at it first. are there specifics or concerns?
dm: text looks good. example 1 seems to give undefined. 2 talks about aria additions, but it's on by default.
ak: browser
<jemma> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/ARIA_Techniques/Using_the_log_role
dm: latest chrome on mac giving "undefined"
ak: any thoughts or comments? 435 is the technique, 436 is the examples.
dm: write comments under pull requests?
ak: put them there.
dm: right there on bottom.
ak: everyting to misspelling to different appraoch to description, other details
ak: seems like it has had more attention. Highlight?
mg: More attention. hopefully will be ready for review soon. Pink flamingo!
ak: 413, status role. Great to
have ppl look at it. main purpose is getting tasks done
now.
... should be helping with techniques. need more eyes on
it.
ak: Jon avila on call
ja: started it.
ak: looks like a bunch of reviews, have talked about it. nothing in last week. challenge was...
ja: don't know what hang up was
ak: usng viewport units. had
concerns around whether could always be failure. longer title
to capture issue. technique using viewport of vw units won't
always fail.
... can we refine failure so does always fail? and how?
ja: last time was okay with
suggestions to keep viewport units in there rather than general
failure. viewport units do always fail. but can have other
examples on page.
... if have those other things then have to have otehr
consieerations. otherwise ppl won't be aware of potential
failures.
ak: tried to avoid appending failures.
<AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/
mg: or use "solely" in name?
ak: a possibility as well.
... pull request 417
... as example, f48 useing tabular unit, might fail but could
have correct tabular info as well, or in way that passes. Don't
like this example, just has text
ja: doing something only by using it elsewhere. Can say "only by using viewport units". not a precedent. don't want long name, but want to keep it.
<AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/F84.html
ja: have generic technique already: 1.4.4 would only be caught under another one, like f80, but is very specific instance
ak: looking at f80, non-specific
link, so there's failure unless you do something extra. which
is what we're saying here.
... basic html page uwing vw units will cause probs.
dm: outcome-based, if another call can pass.
ja: ppl with concerns on call today/
ak: dk
... propose as title? failure due to ppl relying on sizing text
with viewport units without...
mg: could say "alone"
<laura> Survey comments from last week: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/techs2/results#xq1
ak: if syaing in viewport units
alone could use other means to adjust to another vw
unit..
... add note that title needs lengthening to add
qualifier
... test procedure, is this a failure that only applies to
desktop?
ja: yes, in mobile pinch just scales (magnify).
ak: care only if in browsers with text re-sizing without zoom
khs: need that qualifier as well
<Zakim> Greg, you wanted to say we should not rely on behavior of mobile vs. desktop
gl: dislike relying on assumption that mobiel will always scale without reflowing, while desktop will.
ja: agree. if use commands it reflows.
ak: procedure needs to be more generic to not be just desktop
<Greg> We should use the phrases "scale with reflow" and "scale without reflow" rather than mobile and desktop.
mg: agnostic.
ak: get rid of pixels? very specific.
r: yes, makes easy to test. wld rather mobile setting, or 1280, so not so specific
mg: haven't tested, but imagine features for enalrging text willcome into play
ja: havent' tried with viewport units, but may come into play with mac
ak: question about #2, window sizes. Do we need different tests for diff devices. Or pick a window size and work with it?
mg: thought only time using 1280 when describing reflow or 400% zoom. in this case is expansion is beyond conatainer so doesnt' seen to apply
ja: challenge always taht no resolution set. at 200% would have different results depending upon resolution.
ak: makes me concerend that if we
specify pixel size for container it isn't part of the success
criteria.
... adding criteria.
ja: not such high resolutions when wcag came out. kind of overlooked as issue wrt testing.
ak: one of teh questions is whether to have specific pixels, and what to do with different screen sizes if we do.
<daivd-macdonald> test page http://davidmacd.com/test/lvm-text-sizes.html
ak: #4, says any of following methods...resizing text no longer belong? using zoom and nothing esle?
ja: do one or the other.
ak: could change to a number 5. 4 with first two bullets, then check if onpage controls to re-size text, then check results. wld capture if nothing else has been done.
ja: problem to leave all three
in?
... even though title says it, test procedure still allows
it.
ak; maybe it does work this way
dm: can confirm that 500% page doenst increase on mac, but on mobile will go larger on safari and iphone 10
ak: on desktop doesn't change
text size. same size at 500%. should be a failure. going
smaller stays same size. Chrome 65 at 500% at same size as
25%.
... when use command + on Safari does work
ks: expanding screen desktop the text size increases. but not chrome.
<Greg> It does not resize in Vivaldi.
dm: safari does, but chrome does not increase.
ak: need to make sure that we have close to full complement of user agent support as failure
<kirkwood> gets smaller and larger in chrome on mac
gl: vivaldi another browser where does nto change size.
ak: vivaldi based on chrome engine?
gl: don't remember
<AWK> Need to add user agent notes for this technique
dm: Edge, chrome and firefox all honor that. Mobile does not. Windows does. IE too.
<AWK> Need to add live example
dm: just safari on desktop doesn't resize text.
ak: Chrome and windows fail as
expected.
... need to provide pixel width and make it less about desktop.
also add in user agent notes, and live example.
... ppl not opposing this as a failure.
dm: awesome failure!
... kudos jon!
ak: some progress. let's look at 389
ak: technique for sticky headers and footers. positive technique? but some comments. jake, alistair,
ja: its the landscape
issue.
... this can happen whether in landscape or not. If zoom in may
see short window where you can see body. only a line or
two.
... originally a landscape issue, bec not as much height, but
applies else where now.
... wcag doesnt' say have to have sepcific height line, but
makes it very difficult to read.
ak: orientation sc failure?
ja: not really orientation, more text resize, 1.4.4. although strictly speaking nto a failure.
ak: could have header sufficiently large but faile in landscape. could fail even if line of text not as zoomed in.
ja: less than one line of text is possible. usually a few lines. but such a small view into page hard to keep track what's going on. Usability issue.
ak: advisory for 1.4.4?
ja: could apply to orientation if page cannot be operated. but would be extreme case. could be 1.4.4. but in less severe cases would be advisory in stead of failure.
ak: any other comments?
dm: in general it was difficult
to make it work with sticky headers and dropdown. gets messy.
certainly a place for this.
... releasing sticky headers when there is a ceratin header
would make sense
ak: needs ppl to review it.
additional changes taht can be suggested. Alistair is making
changes as well.
... is phrased as a postiive technique, ie. hwo to avoid
failure. doesn't say which SC it is for--which it should.
ak: textbox reflow.
... jon, jake, have looked at it. also does not seem to say
which SC is failing.
l: put it automatically.
ak: reflow. additoinal context
for the group?
... haven't looked at this one. Why two procedures?
... read vertically vs. horizontally. would be good to merge
into one procedure.
ja: trying to clarify in original text. for horizontal text just need horizontal reflow.
<scribe> scribe: rachael
ak: This needs some people to look at it. Please add yourself as a reviewer
Topic 387
<jon_avila> I have to drop
ak: Tech media query reflow
... There is just one procedure. Comments?
... Three people have said yes its ready to go. We need a few
more. Please review it if able to get it to 5 for next week's
call
Tech spacing override
<gowerm> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/386
ak: This is the one we've been going back and forth on.
laura: I updated the description and examples to make it more like a technique.
ak: Is there a link to examples?
<laura> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag/tech-spacing-override/techniques/css/spacing-override.html
Laura: What authors should do and an example to show how to do it.
dm: Is there any algorithm to recommend? It would be very helpful.
laura: Alastair looked into it and no.
dm: The bookmark show if it fails but it won't tell people what to do. Can we come up with a way to recommend changes based on the container?
<gowerm> Ensuring that text containers resize when text resizes
mg: I suggested not to pick up the 1.4.4 language but to make this the technique. (See above)
<laura> Mikes’s proposal: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/384#issuecomment-407406967
mg: What I was suggesting what to take the preamble, peel off the techniques from that. Gave example .Create generic techniques that work well with existing techniques. This is captured on github.
Laura: You can use em and still mess it up.
mg: If you have a generic technique about the containers, then you can use the other techniques in addition
<jemma> jemma: it makes sense to me - container resizing goes with text sizing.
dm: I'm not sure that makes sense. It really is all about the containers. I want to hear about the characteristics of the containers, not the text. How can you mess up on boxes?
Laura: Those should be a failure technique.
mg: I am suggesting the same. The general technique wording I pulled out is: Ensuring that text containers resize when text resizes
dm: What would the techniques then be?
ak: The techniques we have do this. They all size or do not size the container.
<gowerm> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/384
ak: Its all relative. The examples you have are good. Its a question of how to package it. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but can.
mg: Issue 384 is tracking this separate from the pull request.
ak: Mike has engaged with this as well as others. Anyone else who wants to be involved speak now or jump into the review process becuase we need to wrap it up.
mg: The content here is really good. Its a matter of packaging and getting a few good techniques.
ak: Topic: 380
Ensuring single pointer usage.
<gowerm> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/380
ak: Everything seems to be fairly positive. Jon avila is asking about drag and drop. We need to find resolution around 403, which we did so we need to revisit this with that resolution in mind.
This is ready for a little more work but assuming the drag and drop is addressed, what we need is more people to look at it.
Tech autocomplete
<gowerm> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/437
dm: Simple technique to show how
to implement the autocomplete feature.
... Technique and some examples. I've incorporated comments
from two people to date
ak: Basically going back to what
we're trying to accomplish with this technique and how to do
it. I focused on it helping providing a way for anything to get
access to the form fields.
... Looking at the procedure, it says check to see if the form
fields have complete values. Some of our techniques have
leading text, "for form fields that identify the user..." We
need to make sure the fields also have a corresponding
autocomplete value
... The mapping has to be called out. Its not every form
field.
dm: I can put that in a sentence leading up to the steps.
ak: That would be good.
dm: This is not necessarily a functional test. This is more an inspection test. In 2.0 we have more inspection tests.
<gowerm> For each form field that collects information about the user and corresponds to an autocomplete field described in the HTML 5.2 specification, confirm that:
ak: We need more reviewers for this. Is it a nit to call out the HTML 5.2 specification?
dm: Lets use the wcag 2.1 pointers.
AK: Lets go to the next item unless there are more comments?
zakim take up next item
<Ryladog> KHS: Do we need to identify in the test procedure to place focus i forst feild and begin to type? AWK suggests that is best in User Agent notes. DM says that is functional testing
dm: Should we be booking for TPAC?
ak: Book hotels now. If you can, book flights early.
<MichaelC> TPAC agenda
mg: Best option I found is to fly into Paris and take a train.
mc: We don't have an agenda. The recommended hotels are on the main page.
ak: Has anyone else booked a flight? I was considering Geneva
dm: Has anyone crossed that border? Geneva is close
<Ryladog> Crowne Plaza Lyon - Cite Internationale, I got a good dea
ak: I have, it was trivial
k: I have my hotel, the crown plaza. The prices were reasonable. The prices for Europe go down as we get closer to august. I am also taking additional time in London
mc: There are 3 hotels on the site right by the meeting location. One has a negotiated booking link that expires 20 Sept. They can run out of spaces. There are other hotels suggested
<gowerm> https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Hotels-Transportation.html
ak: We found a bunch of editorial errata and we'd like to make sure we publish that because that is what we've done for 2.0 in the past. Some are embarrassing spelling mistakes. All editorial.
mc: We already approved some editorial changes that are in the editors draft. They should show up in the errata page.
<MichaelC> WCAG 2.1 Errata
<MichaelC> In the Introduction, several (but not all) references to "WCAG 2.0" should be "WCAG 2.1".
<MichaelC> In the 0.5.2 Numbering in WCAG 2.1, the words "critera" and "ccriteria" should be "criteria".
<MichaelC> In Success Criterion 1.4.10 Reflow, the first note had a supernumary "Note" indicator which should be removed.
<MichaelC> In 5.3.1 Required Components of a Conformance Claim the editorial note "In WCAG 2.0 this was a dated URI, which may need to be adjusted when this becomes a Rec." should be removed.
<MichaelC> In the definition for keyboard interface, the second (of three) note should be an example of the first note, leaving only two actual notes.
<MichaelC> In the definition for technology, the third note should instead be an example.
<MichaelC> In 7. Input Purposes for User Interface Components, the word "county" should be "country".
mc: The page is currently blank
because we haven't approved any. Bullets above are
proposed
... Andrew asked about the last one because it is an error
copied from html. It is in the editors draft. We can decide to
retain the error from html or change it.
ak: Is it actually an error?
mc: I think it is.
ak: there is a telephone number with county code...
mc: I don't think counties have telephone codes.
ak: It isn't in the errata for the html spec.
mc: It hasn't been filed.
ak: we should let the html folks know so they can add it to their errata.
mc: Will add to html github issue list.
ak: This is changes to the normative doc. We should send this list around. Can we create a pull request for the errata page?
mc: Its managed separately. I would need to set up a seperate issue.
<marcjohlic> +1 to cfc'ing them
ak: Do people agree these are editorial enough that we can run a cfc?
<laura> +1
+1 to cfc
ak: does anyone think
otherwise?
... We will handle this as a cfc
RESOLUTION: MC will run the list by the group as a CFC
ak: We have a survey. I checked about 2 ours ago and only 1 person had responded. We really want everyone's feedback and thoughts on. Please take some time to provide feedback on this.
mc: Closes mid-late august
mg: We will be opening the formal window next Monday through 24 august. If people are concerned that people will be away during that time, please let us know. The survey is open now if you want to send responses early.
<MichaelC> Filed issue on HTML https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/1571
ak: Anything else to ask, raise, discuss?
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: AWK, MichaelC, Greg_Lowney, jemma, marcjohlic, Rachael, gowerm, Chuck, Laura, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kathy, jon_avila, kirkwood Present: AWK MichaelC Greg_Lowney jemma marcjohlic Rachael gowerm Chuck Laura Katie_Haritos-Shea Kathy jon_avila kirkwood Regrets: Brooks Glenda JF Detlev Jake Alastair Found Scribe: mike_elledge Inferring ScribeNick: Mike_Elledge Found Scribe: rachael Inferring ScribeNick: Rachael Scribes: mike_elledge, rachael ScribeNicks: Mike_Elledge, Rachael Found Date: 24 Jul 2018 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]