Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference -- 26 Apr 2018

<Detlev> afk (2 min)

AWK: Flexible agenda for today, in that we need to spend time on understanding documents (and others) as our core activities this week.
... Heads up that what we do next is something to be discussed in the next couple of weeks (2.2, silver, etc). Take a look at Silver documents that we talked about on Tuesday.
... Ultimately we need to decide on advancing on 2.2 or Silver. The documents will help to get a picture of the size and scope of effort for Silver and WCAG 2.2. Headsup that we will have this discussion, beneficial to prepare.

<kirkwood> yes

<Detlev> fine

AWK: Seem reasonable? Any objections? None.

Understanding documents

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Wcag21-understanding-documents#List_of_understanding_docs

AWK: We ran through the different SC and understanding documents this past week on Tuesday. Alistair, were there any that we missed?

AlistairC: We didn't miss, but we did hurry through the last few. They all had people reviewing them. Most have had reviews. Some may need a second review, some need to update them.

AWK: First question: Is there anyone on the call who has done something that needs review from someone else? Any updates that people have related to work in the past couple of days?

Mike: I'm doing pointer cancellation, I'm finding there's some nuance where I'll need guidance. Don't need to talk about it this call, but will need to talk (with Steve). I wouldn't mind input on this call if time permits.

AWK: We do have time. We need to drive towards completion, so input is great.

Understanding Pointer Cancellation

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#pointer-cancellation

Mike: Scenaro - the wording of pointer cancellation is a logic puzzle (that you meet with an up event). Writing document by tackling the four bullets and explain the logic of each of those. I cannot figure out what up-reversal covers.
... ...the various scenarios... drag and drop interactions. I cannot think of a situation where an up event reverses a preceding down event. Wondering if anybody knows what's covered by up reversal.

Greg: Possibility would be where the user does button down on an element to get a pop up getting information about it or a preview, which then disappears on button up.

AWK: Like a menu.

Mike: Any examples of an aria example that I can site?

Greg: I don't have one off hand, just the first thing that occurred to me. Seen occasionally, can't tell you where.

Mike: Like a hover event.

AlistairC: You could think of games, where you see the rear of a card, and you release it turns it back over.

Greg: Any other ideas?

Detlev: Exactly the same suggestion, a transient pop up.

Greg: Enough to go on. Not obvious that up event is what you should be doing.

AWK: I mentioned a menu, this may be more of a desktop model. Thinking about something like Mac & Safari, when I click the menu is open, then move around, when I release the button the menu disappears. May apply to web context the same.

<alastairc> System menu menus on Mac, click & hold, then release and it disappears

AWK: if you open up Safari, there's a file menu. If you just click and release quickly, the menu stays open, if you do it slowly the menu remains while you hold until you release the mouse button.
... Any questions or thoughts for rest of participants?

Mark: If a separate discussion: Do we include Persona Quotes?

<laura> I started a Wiki page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Persona_Quotes_for_2.1_Understanding_Documents

AWK: There has been discussion about that. Let's talk about it in a minute.

Detlev: ... Is it not possible to change that now?

AWK: Which definition? Single Pointer?

Detlev: Yes. Just confusing and people have noted it's confusing.

AWK: We made that change because people thought it was confusing the other way.

Detlev: You can't please everyone.

AWK: Agreed.

<alastairc> Detlev - that definition is also used in the next SC, where I think that part is needed?

AWK: Michael, just so we understand. Does the spec vary at all between PR and Rec? Or does that thing only happen on member comments that don't change intent.

Mike: Working group can't change spec. AC can request changes. If they are major and invaldiate things, we may push back, or it will push us back. For the most part any changes requested by AC will be difficult to take up.

Detlev: This doesn't seem vital. Let's move on.

Mike: Can you walk us through exactly why this is difficult to handle?

Detlev: If someone is just looking at the normative bits (glossary, SC) they would find ... Pointer gestures: (reads the sc quickly)... Single pointer is referencing single pointer definition.
... (reading definition quickly)... In the definition there is path based gestures. Since the glossary is subordinate to the SC, SC overrules glossary. Still looks like an oversite.

Mike: Therer's a definition.

Detlev: Then we don't need to dwel on this.

AlastairC: If you look at the next definition....

AWK: This detail around pointer gestures - is it reflected in the understanding document?

Detlev: I know now what to answer to the commenter. I can respond to the issue.

AWK: Got it.
... AlistairC (spoke).
... Anyone else have other issues to raise?
... Part of challenge with call on Tuesday and then Thursday, we understand that people have their own jobs.

Personas

AWK: Mark, you wanted to talk about Personas.

<Glenda> See our wiki work at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Persona_Quotes_for_2.1_Understanding_Documents

<laura> I’m here.

Mark: Can we get some decisions made on the small stuff? For example, initial discussion was around using the Persona Glenda had from her blog. Do you want these to be taken verbatim word for word?

Glenda: Laura and I are just looking for a timeslot to meet with <individual>, I am documenting the proposed quotes. Because we haven't had a chance to meet with Sean. It's not an intent to use what "Glenda" wrote. Let's draft the quote...

<Glenda> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pYF6V8_Ce_ZSagb9c7_nj560ned_Vmgd3y7obAWKnk4/edit

Glenda: Drop them into the wiki page, ..draft quotes are being worken at... refers to a Google doc.
... You'll see that this phase 1 is draft at least one persona quote. Are we going to link? Decide on the appropriate place to put it, add them....
... My thoughts are once we get to last bullet of phase 1 we determine if Glenda does them all or if we do the email and ask everybody to update their own docs.

Marc: I did pull in from your blog some content. I'll wait for you guys to do your thing.

Glenda: That was my plan, then come back and share with all. We can have some consistency in voice. When it comes back to the owner, it's just a recommendation for you to include.

Mark: I prefer this approach. You will discuss if we link to the Persona. This answers the nick pick things. Sounds like this will be addressed.

Glenda: That's the plan.

AWK: Sounds good.

Chuck: Learning voices.

Mike: Beauty of personas is that it doesn't have to interfere with anything else, can be dropped in.
... I proposed one line blurbs which are one line summaries. One caution is that I've been using those to try and reach the intent. I might be less inclined to mimic what I put in.

<alastairc> Issue for tracking Michael's suggestion: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/882

Mike: I put out an article in January that gave a one sentence description of the SC's.

<marcjohlic> Mike's Simplification blog article: https://www.ibm.com/blogs/age-and-ability/2018/02/08/simplifying-new-wcag-2-1-guidelines/

<Ryladog_> I think this is a great idea Mike!

Mike: That's culturally bias, but it's immediately clear what the intent is. If you had something like that, you could put it in as a call out. Short and gone, then the explanation following.
... audience... great idea.

<laura> Love MG’s summaries.

AWK: Do you envision that as the first line or not?

Mike: It would be like a call-out. If you think of the wording that appears above the body of the article, a bit larger. Dumping that in the intent as a rapid scan of what this thing means.

<alastairc> Notes that there already is a box-out: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/pointer-gestures.html

<gowerm> https://www.ibm.com/blogs/age-and-ability/2018/02/08/simplifying-new-wcag-2-1-guidelines/

AWK: Might be great to prototype. AlistairC has a link to something here.

Katie: Like the handles we have to the SC.

AWK: What do you mean "handles"?

Katie: SC use to just have numbers, we added short names. They didn't have words. We use that in linking to building the document.
... Easy handle word handles to go along with numbers.

AWK: We didn't use that to try and clarify what the SC was?

Katie: It was something short, anything we can do to make it understandable. Glenda's idea, plain language, just makes total sense. Then those handles can be used to deliver more informatoin.

Mike: Not clear if people want to adopt that.
... Two quick things. Do we want a stake in the ground? A one liner above the intent? Or first line of the intent?
... Preferences?

AWK: For me. I would kind of like to see what it is like first. Show me examples.
... ... sites some hypotheticals...
... I would hope we could look at a few examples.

Mike: Can anybody rapidly publish something?

<gowerm> Let users operate touchscreens with a single finger.

AWK: Can you paste that in?

Mike: Yes.
... That would be an italisized line above the intent.

Marc: Will that be replacing the benefits section?

Many: No.

Glenda: Caution for: simplification... is (especially on the reflow where we are making US centric or left/right/left centric) I would add an assumption, clarify that you are reading left/right/left.

Mike: Suggestion - internationalization will handle this. Not perfect, but more or less based on the language you are writing in.

Glenda: That's a bit unfair, you need to write the assumption. you have to say "example".

Mike: At which point you are losing the simplification. If you try to cover it all you are going into the intent section.

Glenda: I think that saying "example for a person reading english" is simple and important.
... I can be overruled.

Mike: Same thoughts. If people want to try to alter them.... it's an IBMism... trying to clarify the simplification becomes complex.

Glenda: You have to make it translatable.

Katie: ...

Glenda: I just think this will create more confusion.

Katie: Maybe an asterick and a clarification below on the language.

Mike: Maybe we can identify all the things that need to be considered.

AlastairC: We'll have to take case by case. Some will have caveats.
... I linked through to pointer gestures is it includes content... if we had another box with a simple statement of sc it gets heavy. Just under intent heading would be fine. Need to take case by case.

<gowerm> I didn't picture a boxed element; just emphasis

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to share https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/pointer-gestures-short-intent-option1/understanding/21/pointer-gestures.html

AWK: I hoped that I could mock up something quickly, but remembered that to get right rendering needs to be part of i/o version of document. Link just has Mikes text below intent. You must imagine.... a green box...
... There's a gray box, within it a green box which is the note class. What mine would be doing is just have a green box which is the note class. Seems like we need to mock up some different ones.

Mike: I don't think they need a green box, italics would be fine. What Marc said... if we know that this will be there, we can worry less about being precise in the first paragraphs of the document.

AWK: Part of the point others are making is that it will vary case by case. If we take a look back at WCAG 2.0, you see various ones with varying degrees of challenge.
... 17 minutes left. Questions, comments, concerns on Understanding Documents?

AlastairC: Anybody need a suggestion of a doc to review?

AWK: Does anybody feel like they have nothing to do?
... We need to update information, we have a tracking page. Need to update that page and point people to it. I suspect some people are willing to spend some time even if not willing to speak up.

Techniques

AWK: Alastair, I don't know if you have any thoughts. I think that we have the same problem here, we need to make sure tracking doc is up to date. Do we have enough new techniques for each SC?
... Make sure that they are consistent and have live examples. Is there anyone who is actively working on techniques?

AlastairC: I think mobile task force is working on techniques. I've seen some activites.

Detlev: Some activities, very short call today, we are going to pause technique work to focus on understanding docs. There are some drafts. But will spend time on understanding docs.

AlastairC: An action for myself or Andrew to review the docs.

AWK: Definitely need to get the tracking doc up to date so we know where we are at. I don't have a good handle on that at the moment.
... Techniques are definitely easier. We will also continue to build techniques over time. People will look at WCAG 2 and see a huge number of techniques. But that was built up over time. We need to cut ourselves some slack.
... Newly suggested techniques can be moved in place and out of place easier. We'll be alright. We want to be sure we have a decent assortment of techniques. We can provide additional structure to direct people.
... Any other questions about techniques?

Any other business

AWK: We had a few people raised questions. Any other questions?

AlastairC: Looking for an expert in color spaces and RGB standards.

AWK: I might be able to find someone. Between photoshop and illustrator, they deal with color sometimes :-)
... I can probably find someone who can help out. It may well be that there is someone from Adobe that came up with the spec.

AlastiarC: There's a public comment that we add a note in the understanding about the values used in the color contrast calculation. I'm worried about dismissing it w/o knowing more about it.

AlastairC: Chrome has ...it's own things... Would be helpful to have expert opinions.

AWK: I'll see if I can find someone.
... I know two people that I can email that are involved in color stuff.

AlastairC: These are standards from '96.

AWK: Anything else?
... Meeting adjorned.

<AWK> +AWK

Trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

26 Apr 2018

Attendees

Contents

Understanding documents

Understanding Pointer Cancellation

Personas

Techniques

Any other business

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

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