<AWK_> "As will be made clear in the Understanding document, this SC is not recommending or encouraging the use of On Hover or On Focus as the trigger for displaying new content. This is considered a poor interaction by many, since users may easily inadvertently trigger new content. However, where an author elects to employ On Hover as a trigger, this SC places requirements on the implementation which make the resulting experience more accessible."
<AWK_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Draft_Responses_to_Dec_WD_Issues#630
<Brooks> The sentence in question for Issue 630 - "This is considered a poor interaction by many, since users may easily inadvertently trigger new content."
<marcjohlic> +1
<AWK_> +1 going to CSUN
<jallan> +1 CSUN
<Greg> -1 I won't be at this CSUN
<AWK_> Jake +1
<AWK_> open issues since WD publication: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues?page=1&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Dec+WD+Comment%22
<JakeAbma> +1 CSUN
<jallan> scribe: jallan
<kirkwood> presemt+
awk: Possible Mon Tue WG meeting at CSUN?
ac: no
alex: maybe
<alastairc> don't think I can make CSUN this year, but could call in (yay! not)
jf: +1
<kirkwood> unsure on csun
jw: +1 tues, mon?
dm: +1, prefer tues
awk: have rough idea. will do survey
<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> i dont have any plans at this point
<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> +1 to tpac
awk: value having a F2F. whether at CSUN and/or TPAC (leon, FR). CSUN is more pressing per time constraints
ls: continental concerns and $$$
awk: review past F2F, are sensitive to travel, etc.
awk: need to resolve issues by
end of next week.
... 28 open items since last WD. have 40 from previous releases
(some editorial)
... suggest additional 2 hr call, monday or wednesday
... need proposals to resolve issues
<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> i have a trip , i doubt i can any any of them
<alastairc> I'm ok mon-wed, can't make thursday.
<Greg> Monday is better for me.
awk: will have call on Tues and
Thurs. need one additional next week on Mon or Wed.
... Wed. is that good?
<alastairc> If we line up issues to tackle now, would have more chance of actually doing them by wed.
gl: time?
<JF> +1 to either day, but be careful of conflicts between other WGs and TFs (for example, APA meets Wednesday at Noon Eastern
awk: 11, 12, or 1 EST
jf: survey?
awk: could do that.
... if we can do this asynchronously would be fine, but need
good timely responses.
... will do survey.
... Timeline - end of next week. or we get behind.
<AWK_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues?page=1&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Dec+WD+Comment%22
^^ from december. Still have many with no asignees (6 or so)
<AWK_> Draft responses go here: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Draft_Responses_to_Dec_WD_Issues
awk: all issues should have a
link on wiki page above. this is a shared page. draft, then
paste in wiki
... 634 single pointer def
ls: 634 is old
jf: will take 654
see https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/654
jf: review 653, commented directly to Guy. I did all my stuff via email
ls: will take COGA items
jw: 12 Jan is deadline for comments.
awk: sooner the better.
<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> john, can you take 651? i am flying
<AWK_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Draft_Responses_to_Dec_WD_Issues#656
<AWK_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Draft_Responses_to_Dec_WD_Issues#655
<AWK_> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#content-on-hover-or-focus
awk: change to SC text, to remove reference to user agents. make it easier to understand.
<AWK_> current first line: When pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content to become visible, the following are true:
<AWK_> Changes to: Where the author causes the hover or keyboard focus to trigger additional content to become visible, the following are true:
<JF> @Lisa, yes, I can take Issues #651, #653, and #654
<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> thank u!!
awk: moves the exception into the SC text
alex: editorial. use 'authored
content' rather than 'author'
... 'Where authored content ...' instead of "where the author
..."
<Zakim> Greg, you wanted to say that it's not so much whether authored content triggers it as whether authored content can control it.
awk: whatever we say, it could still be controlled by the user agent.
gl: it's not so much whether authored content triggers it as whether authored content can control it.
<Zakim> steverep_, you wanted to say the 2 are simply not equivalent - everything is authored content
sr: agree with Greg
awk: agree with goal of bundling
exception in text and remove it.
... is the exception critical, and must remain separate?
sr: not applicable to documents.
alex: in a document, word or excel, must write a script. 99% of folks will not experience it.
<Alex> Where the visual presentation of additional content that are triggered by pointer hover or keyboard focus is not controller by the user agent...
<Alex> Where the visual presentation of additional content that are triggered by pointer hover or keyboard focus and not controller by the user agent...
Where the visual presentation of additional content that are triggered by pointer hover or keyboard focus and not controlled by the user agent...
<AWK_> Where the visual presentation of additional content triggered by pointer hover or keyboard focus and is not controlled by the user agent, the following are true:
<AWK_> Where the visual presentation of additional content triggered by pointer hover or keyboard focus is not controlled by the user agent, the following are true:
awk: thoughts
<jasonjgw> Or one could write: "If pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers additional content to become visible, the presentation of which is not controlled by the user agent, the following are true"
<Greg> My problem with Alex’s suggestion is that all behavior is ultimately controlled by the User Agent, often with advice from the author.
<Greg> Could we handle the concern by changing the exception to "Exception: The visual presentation and behavior of the additional content cannot be controlled by the author."
<Zakim> Greg, you wanted to say Could we handle the concern by changing the exception to "Exception: The visual presentation and behavior of the additional content cannot be controlled by
greg: makes the exception more general.
<alastairc> it isn't about 'control' but whether the author is over-riding the default. I.e. we aren't failing default user-agent styles.
sr: agree with greg. issue is not
where exception is. but the controlling by the user
agent.
... other SCs have same language. must apply any change
universally.
awk: need more work on this response. not sure of changing text or exception.
alex: will propose alternative language
<AWK_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/656
<AWK_> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#text-spacing
<AWK_> @@if a mechanism is available to set the following@@ text style properties, then no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following @@ that are supported, while @@ changing no other style property:
awk: part of concern. in the
reading of the SC, if you have text style property - eg font,
SC seems to say if something is supported then the SC
applies.
... content author does not have to change things they have no
control over.
<AWK_> Also an exception: Except when a fixed size content layout area is essential to the information being conveyed.
awk: exception for different presentational mechanisms
ac: had long discussion on
'mechanism'. decided not to use it, because many thought
'mechanism' would cause author to create a widget.
... not comfortable with the change. may open a loophole. if
you have a fixed width, then you are exempt from these.
alex: powerpoint has a fixed
canvas size- for projection. if slide is full, author has to
make the changes. not flexibible
... same with spreadsheet. if too much info in cell, then
author must change the layout.
... in WCAG user agent makes the change. when we apply to
documents - because the are run in an app with fixed canvas
size.
jw: agree with first clause of SC. agree that it is a bit ambiguous.
<alastairc> Is that an accessibliity supported issue then?
<AWK_> Suggested by AWK: @@If the technology being used provides a mechanism to set the following@@ text style properties, then no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following @@ that are supported, while @@ changing no other style property:
jw: could read as any setting must be changed. understand that it is not clear.
<alastairc> that clears my worry about mechanism
awk: trying to point out the technology has the mechanism, not the author
dm: mechanism historically, when
browsers could not do something the author had to make it
work.
... now we have a different meaning for mechanisms. We don't
want the author to do anything in this case.
awk: many instances of mechanism in SCs with different meanings
ac: address alex concern. if you
can set line height but not word spacing... falls under
accessibility supported.
... with fixed canvas, that is the author concern.
awk: not accessibly supported. if you use something that does not have alt text, author must have another way.
ac: you don't have to worry about it, if it is not supported.
awk: if technology does not support setting text styles. the author does not have to do anything.
jw: agree with awk
... still issues with fixed layout.
<alastairc> scribe:alastairc
<AWK_> @@If the technology being used provides a mechanism to set the following@@ text style properties, then no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following @@ that are supported, while @@ changing no other style property:
AWK: This seems to work for some commenters...
Steve: It's the user agent or the author who provides the mechanism.
AWK: Mechanism (defining), hmm, good point.
<jasonjgw> "If the technologies being used allow the user agent to set any of the following style properties..."
<AWK_> "In content implemented using markup languages"
<Zakim> steverep_, you wanted to say a technology cannot provide a "mechanism"
"In content implemented using markup languages, then no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following style properties that are supported, while changing no other style property:"
<jasonjgw> Another alternative: "If there is an accessibility-supported means of changing any of the following text style properties..."
Alex: Difference is the dynamic switching between author and viewer, e.g. when you change the text property, it's up to you to use it.
AWK: Please please work on the issues this week, ping me & Josh a message to say when you have a response.
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/CSIN/CSUN/ Default Present: AWK, Greg_Lowney, Brooks, KimD, JakeAbma, JF, alastairc, Alex, kirkwood, SteveRepsher, jasonjgw, david-macdonald Present: AWK Greg_Lowney Brooks KimD JakeAbma JF alastairc Alex kirkwood SteveRepsher jasonjgw david-macdonald WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: KathyWahlbin, Glenda, Laura, Mike_Pluke, Detlev) Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Laura, Detlev, MikeP, JOC_(partial), Glenda, KathyW Regrets: Laura Detlev MikeP JOC_(partial) Glenda KathyW Found Scribe: jallan Inferring ScribeNick: jallan Found Scribe: alastairc Inferring ScribeNick: alastairc Scribes: jallan, alastairc ScribeNicks: jallan, alastairc WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]