See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 08 September 2015
<AWK> Scribe: Bruce_Bailey
AWK: welcome
... appologies for late agenda
<yatil> http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/
Erik: talking about quick ref
EricE: lots of changes under hood
taking up UI
what you cannot see is tagging, look at footer tab
rough preview for now
hoping for less text
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-wcag-quickref/wiki/tagging-success-criteria
multiple working groups provinging input
githup wiki page provided for input please
request for wg members take look at list, think of other text and tags that could be useful
are any tags redundant? are they properly associated?
current some tags only associated with single sc -- so we may not be keeping that tag
MC: tags look good, but are you keep separate track of tags?
EE: currently externally managed,
but we may want to roll into jason
... would be helpful to incorporate into Json
MC: Other peoples opinion?
... Majority view is what folks want.
AWK: Could see tags getting added
ad hoc, so need capability to edit
... Would want to consolidate, that would editorial. Need to
keep tags in mind as we go forward
EE: tags just for SC at
present
... very much tags are under control of group
MC: tags for techniques might be
useful in future
... we would want list of tags so typos do not accidently
introduce new tags
EE: understood, again tags just for SC for now
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if you´re maintaining the tags independently or if you want them in the sources - soon, or eventually
David M: Q about tab order on new layout page
Eric and David resolve behavior
EricE: Future item is some inconsistences with sources, flagging for Michael
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-wcag-quickref/issues/26
As Eric notices, forwards to editors
EricE has created a list (link above), asks others to add if they notice issues.
<laura> Nice job eric.
AWK: Anything else?
AKW: Kudos
AWK: Also unders announcements, charter still under development
Resolving open comments on charter
Hopefully next week.
WG still operating under extended charter for next few weeks.
AWK: Anything else?
David_M: Asks if more discussion beyond WCAG extensions?
AWK: Commenters raised. Further work with ATAG and UAAG also under discussion.
Lots of questions still, more questions than answers at the moment.
MC: Exploring options.
Significant administrative issued. Major change would mean
revisiting charter yet again.
... Plan for now is proceed as we had discussed, but think more
about how to incorporate more ideas for Charter and future
scope.
This is third proposed charter, so we really don't want forth attempt. We want to give all due consideration for future ideas. How does that sound?
DavidM: Sounds good.
Jon Avila: Points out how much could be added to future guidelines, but we need mobile extensions now.
MC: The more feedback we get from task forces, the better idea we have how to incorporate ideas and suggestions from tast forces.
<David> A discussion paper on turning advice to Success Criteria in mobile http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
MC: Mobile is ahead of other groups, but even there we do not have concrete fix. One problem is indentified.
Kathy shared TF notes so far
DavidM: Some language looks like it could be phrased as SC but there is still a lot of controversy
DM: Discussion is still going on
with regard to how universal mobile SC are, as compared to
current SC. So they may be more like best practices.
... Changing the WCAG model would not be a good thing.
AWK: People like what Michael has been saying. We seem to have consensus to keep moving current charter through, look more or different in future.
Josh on-line, checks in.
AWK: Reviewing options for charter. One option for future charter is to get away from extensions.
DavidM: Could also work in recommendations from task force into techniques documents. That would be closer to normative.
MC: Reminds group that techniques are not normative, and we do not want contrived mappings.
DavidM: There may still be oportunities to work taskforce advice into failure techniques.
AWK: Work will continue on
Charter.
... Working group approval would be needed for any
non-editorial changes, including a 3rd charter vote.
... Expect some editorial.
AWK: Check w/ MC on schedule for publishing.
MC: Held up on coordinating announcements, which need an approval cycle, initiating this week.
AWK: From a working group perspective, could be anytime. Wording on announcement more complicated than edits this time around.
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/09082015/results
AWK: Survey was a little late. Only one item looks completed.
Work through as we go on call.
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/110#issuecomment-131810378
Issue 110: Update G65 breadcrumb technique to follow the HTML5 pattern?
Laura asked to summarize.
<laura> Mic problems agian.
<AWK> G65: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G65.html
AWK: In description asks to add arrow to last paragraph of description and providing an example 3 as shown git hub page
Uses aria lable for breadcrumb and new resource.
AWK: Only survey comment is to add indent for readability.
Katike H: Likes it.
AWK: Notes new example is quite a bit more detailed than other.
<scribe> New example is just for SC 2.4.8. Does not seem like a major change. Calls for objections?
RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed (including code indentation)
<laura> Thank you.
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/09082015/results#xq8
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-45 - 114 example #2 of f22 seems to stretch sc 3.2.5 requirement. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/45/edit>.
AWK: Salish had question, AKW
clarified in response and change. Salish liked it.
... Clarify that just because a user clicks on a link, that
*could* be a change in context
TOPIC survey 2nd question 114 Example #2 of F22 seems to stretch SC 3.2.5 requirement
<MichaelC> trackbot, close issue-45
<trackbot> Closed issue-45.
DavidM: adds some context that originally some discussion
Some people assert that clicking a link that brings up new window is change in context
AWK: Other institutional memory
on this?
... Notes that current wording mentions change of view port
h+
MichaelC: Remembers Ben arguing
case.
... Recalls notification
Bruce recalls that is where advance notice to user is required.
KatieH: Wanted notice to users if behavior was not clear
AWK: Asks David if link opening new window in 3.2.5 was not a problem.
DavidM: Consensus at time was to live with it because screen reading software announces new link.
AWK: Who benefits if this is interpreted as new requirement?
DavidM: Advance notice helps
screen reader users, as well as people with cognitive
disabilties. Nice for everyone.
... Example Eric uses with wikipedia off-site icon -- but
indicated new window.
AWK: what about low vision user? Screen reader use case heavily discussed
Bruce asks to check WCAG text
Jon Avila: Some consensus 3.2.5 applies
AWK: There is A A A item for this -- so implies is not requirement for A A
JonA: No failure associated with no advance notice of new window
MichaelC: Recalls that SC got morphed to capture tabbing through page
Katie: Definition of link captures this.
AWK: Asks for clarification if 3.2.2, want to keep conversation on 3.2.5
MichaelC: Thinks David is correct, at A A A need advance notice.
At A A with 3.2.5 link opening new window is permitted
Specific wording on 3.2.5 does not explicit notice that link will be new window.
DavidM: New window opening is not good, but not prohibited
MichaelC: We do not have text in techniques that behavior is okay maybe because we did not want to encourage it.
AWK: New technique text seems to contradict earlier conclusion that new window is tolerated.
<AWK> F22: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/F22
MichealC: Technique documents reflect intent at the time written, could be rewritten to address confusion.
JonA: If we make this edit, we need to change the name.
MichealC: Could also make new technique, but we should defer on that.
AWK: Current proposal under
discussion is to change technique in Understanding document for
F22.
... quotes new text
... This is a clarification within understanding document
<AWK> text I read comes from: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/114#issuecomment-135866669
DavidM: Think we can work this out.
AWK: Does everyone agree at A A A user needs advance notification?
No objections.
Bruce checks for 3.2.5 and A A A
MichaelC: Wording is complex, but does say what we want.
JonA: This raises some questions with 3.2.2. Making it explicit for 3.2.5 makes the poor behavior okay for 3.2.2
DavidM: Thinks other examples with form fields makes this change okay. User has feedback where they are changing things.
<laura> changes of context definition: http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-unpredictable-change.html#context-changedef
AWK: As Katie mentioned, selecting links not invoking 3.2.2
JonA: So long as we are making distinction with regards to settings helps this. We may need to add that to 3.2.2
Katie: Problem is that what is perceived as link nowadays has morphed quite abit from when 3.2.2 was first written. Overlays come into effect.
AWK: Cites from understanding for 3.2.2 that mentions controls in contrast to links
JonA: Still a little ambiguous
DavidM: Gives example with forms where you know you have initiated activity
JonA: On a link and press enter invokes modal dialog box, is that not a change of context without opening a new widow? It is a new viewport. Understanding says that not all changes of content are changes of context.
DavidM: Mentions 2008 context, users were still prepared that they were is some kind of dialog box with changes related to that.
JonA: Asks why is this different for 3.2.5?
Josh: Distinction between initated and non-initiated changes of context seem like a continuim
DavidM: At 3.2.5 need advance notice, while 3.2.2 can be infered from being on a link.
AWK: Resonable question, but should we taking something out of 3.2.5? Really doubt there would be consensus for that. Could revisit that later, after new charter.
JonA: Agree to differ.
DavidM: Agree we can defer larger conversation. Safe to make clarification now.
AWK: Agrees that proposed text is complex, but all discussion seems like we can keep it. Any objections as proposed?
RESOLUTION: Accept issue 114 as proposed.
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/09082015/results#xq9
Issue 99: Update PDF14 to be in sync with PDF/UA and also ensure footer information is available in other means
AWK: JonA has good point about
links in footer.
... Bruce had editorial suggestion.
... Asks DavidM (technique author) about artifacting footers
with links. Is current wording a problem?
DavidM: Thinks that is okay,
failure is to UA, not WCAG SC
... We are encouraging artifacts, and we can catch other
failures
JonA: What should we say about links in footers?
DavidM: Do we need to list out things PDF/UA might not catch?
AWK: Could be different opinions. What about running footers with link?
DavidM: PDF/UA just says to artifact headers and footers, so it can be too broad
JonA: PDF/UA may not have
considered edge cases, so links in footers may be
overlooked.
... There are updates expected soon for PDF/UA
... Some of the problems come down to UA issues -- it would be
nice if UA gave selective access to running footers in PDF.
AWK: Could be a future issues to
revisit PDF technique 14. Do we like what we have here well
enough?
... Should be a fairly simple failure: You have followed advice
in PDF/UA and made footer invisible to AT and have footer
information available elsewhere (e.g., page numbers)
<David> Here is pdf14 rewrite
JonA: Asks for clarification that this applies only to running footers?
<David> here is 14 https://github.com/DavidMacDonald/wcag/commit/a98f5313076676730c07cdb3110ce28b9e3e44e7
AWK: Proposed text does not specify running or no. Just says if hidden and not otherwise available, then a failure.
JonA: Seems reasonable as written then.
AWK: Asks for objections
DavidM: Checks that this rendering is not available as formated HTML.
AWK: New work flow has this artifact
s/artifcact/effect that final formal not in HTML/
[12:31] <bruce_bailey> s/artifact/effect that final formal not in HTML/
RESOLUTION: Leave open
AWK: Since a pull-request we need text cleaned up completely before accepting.
<laura> bye
<AWK> trackbot, end meeting
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