Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference -- 30 Sep 2014

<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_indicate_tangentially_related_content

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thSept2014/

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments

<AWK> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014

<AWK> Chair: Joshue

<AWK> Trackbot, regrets?

<trackbot> Sorry, AWK, I don't understand 'Trackbot, regrets?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<Joshue> regrets?

<Joshue> trackbot, regrets?

<trackbot> Sorry, Joshue, I don't understand 'trackbot, regrets?'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<adam_solomon> Hi - i have a survey item (#2) this week - i will be on the call about a half an hour late - if possible I would appreciate delaying discussion on that item until I am on the call Thanks

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<scribe> scribe: jon_avila

Open actions review [start at ACTION-213]:

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open

Action 274

<Joshue> ACTION-274

<trackbot> ACTION-274 -- Katie Haritos-Shea to Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included. -- due 2014-09-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/274

ryladog: wanted to put in universal language regarding keyboard acess into g4-- add words to last sentence of original description.

<Ryladog> G4: Original Description: Description The objective of this technique is to provide a way to pause movement or scrolling of content. If the user needs to pause the movement, to reduce distraction or to have time to read it, they can do so, and then restart it as needed. This mechanism can be provided either through interactive controls that conform to WCAG or through keyboard shortcuts. If keyboard shortcuts are used, they are documented.

<Ryladog> G4 New for Mobile: Suggested changes.......... Description The objective of this technique is to provide a way to pause movement or scrolling of content. If the user needs to pause the movement, to reduce distraction or to have time to read it, they can do so, and then restart it as needed. This mechanism can be provided either through interactive controls that conform to WCAG or through keyboard shortcuts. Standard keyboard interface accessibility is a[CUT]

awk: we can check off action as done -- we should survey what has been suggested.

<Joshue> ACTION-274: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0273.html Response

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-274 Review description for g4 to ensure that keyboard interface support is included..

JO: We will survey Action 274. Added response to tracker.

<Ryladog> Standard keyboard interface accessibility is always required (under 2.1.1), and if non-standard keyboard shortcuts are used, they are documented.

kw: Mobile TF has g4 approved - what ist he change?

ryladog: Had concern that people might forget about keyboard interface support. Wanted to find a standard way to talk about it. Didn't want to put it into example.

kw: prefer proposed language to go back to mobile TF so we can get wording approved across all updated techniques.

jo: Katie and Kathy should discuss with mobile TF.

awk: text was more of a don't forget this as well text. G4 changes were approved but this would be additional text.
... wanted to prevent going back and forth.

kw: it's important we are consistent on this topic. We've had several conversations in the TF and we want the language incorporated in techniques.

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/213

Action 213

<Joshue> ACTION-213: Josh to ping david for an update

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-213 Work on adding his additional knowledge about uses of level to this technique..

<Joshue> ACTION-206

<trackbot> ACTION-206 -- Loretta Guarino Reid to Revise http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F43:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.3.1_due_to_using_structural_markup_in_a_way_that_does_not_represent_relationships_in_the_content -- due 2013-06-27 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/206

jo: will ping David on 213.

Action-206

lgr: Did not have a chance to look at it since we last discussed.

<Joshue> ACTION-206: Loretta to revisit it asap.

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-206 Revise http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F43:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.3.1_due_to_using_structural_markup_in_a_way_that_does_not_represent_relationships_in_the_content.

jo: Update action to indicate LGR will revisit this.

Action-205

awk: added a note in June 2014. It was originally created in June 2013. Some missing context in action -- would need to back and figure out context.

<Joshue> ACTION-205: AWK to follow up

awk: May need possible technique for summary. Will make sure it gets on list of needed techniques and then action item can be closed.

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-205 Review WIKI techniques list and that Captions and summary are reflected on the list.

Action 204

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/204

<Joshue> ACTION-204: Josh to ping David about this

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-204 Look at fixing changing LC-2632: SCR37: Creating Custom Dialogs in a Device Independent Way.

jo: to ping David MacDonald

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/203

Action-203

<Joshue> Revisit removing the tabindex check from test procedure step 3 in F59

<Joshue> ACTION-203: josh to ping adam

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-203 Revisit removing the tabindex check from test procedure step 3 in F59.

awk: Adam is on IRC but was going to join call late.

jo: Will remind Adam to review this action item.

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/198

Action-198

<Joshue> Write paragraph to explain why references to conformance criteria are not needed in WCAG2ICT

<Joshue> ACTION-198: Josh to ping peter

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-198 Write paragraph to explain why references to conformance criteria are not needed in WCAG2ICT.

awk: Peter Korn is not currently a participant.

mc: We can reassign action or close it. Action item is related to WCAG-ICT which is a published note.

awk: May not be relevant anymore.

mc: No open work on WCAG to ICT

Ryladog: May be relevant to Bruce Bailey

<MichaelC> close action-217

<trackbot> Closed action-217.

jo: Call to close action 198
... any objection? None heard.

<Joshue> Close, action-198

<Joshue> close, action-198

<Joshue> ACTION-192

<trackbot> ACTION-192 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to Noodle with Loretta and Andrew a navigation mechanism related to comment LC-2669 -- due 2013-02-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/192

Action-192

<AWK> Close ACTION-198

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-198.

<Joshue> ACTION-192: Close

<trackbot> Sorry, but I think you meant to close ACTION-192.

<Joshue> close ACTION-192

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-192.

jo: Gregg Vanderheiden and LGR were to brainstorm on this action

lgr: Action 192 can be closed.

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/190

Action 190

<Joshue> ACTION-190: Josh to ping james

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-190 Run tests on alt=¨ ¨ to input whether we should remove mention of it from F30.

jo: Will ping James

Survey for September 30th, 2014:

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/190

<Joshue> ACTION-190: I did run tests but didn't formally do the results

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-190 Run tests on alt=¨ ¨ to input whether we should remove mention of it from F30.

jn: No update yet. Will be quick. Did run tests but will provide formal results.

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thSept2014/

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thSept2014/results

Carousel tutorial review

jo: will aggregate comments in document and then send to Shadi who will annonymize them and put in tracker
... don't need to read all of the comments.

mc: Some places a code example is provided and other places there is a visual example. It would be good to have both.

awk: Question is this a draft but ready for review or is this not ready for review yet. The next question is related to Mike Elledge question about buttons having to have same behaviour as a button.

ME: links cannot be activated with space but can be activated with enter but if you call it a button then it isn't acting according to those behaviours.

<AWK> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/carousels/

jn: Don't see an example of buttons in the preview.

awk: Need to clarify status of document to determine if all parts are ready ready for our review.

<Joshue> ACTION: Josh to ping Shadi about the editorial status etc of the Carousel tutorial [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-277 - Ping shadi about the editorial status etc of the carousel tutorial [on Joshue O Connor - due 2014-10-07].

ME: In response to James' question -- question on buttons more hypothetical question.

<Joshue> ACTION: Josh to send collated feedback to Shadi on carousels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-278 - Send collated feedback to shadi on carousels [on Joshue O Connor - due 2014-10-07].

jo: Any other comments about carousel tutorial?

[LC-2957] Remove layout table section from H39 and H73

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thSept2014/results

LC-2957

RESOLUTION: accepted as proposed

<Joshue> [LC-2959] Remove "WAI-ARIA is a Working Draft" from ARIA2

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2959

LC-2959

awk: Ask whether ARIA technique should be sufficient rather than adivsory.

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA2.html

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/aria#ARIA1

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA1.html

jn: orgiinally we were discussing ARIA 1, 2, and 3 for sufficient techniques. Question is are ARIA 1 and 2 sufficient?

awk: aria-required and aria-dscribedby are a matter of discussion.

<Joshue> JA: PF discussed this

<AWK> JA: some discussion with PF about ARIA read-only and required

<Joshue> JA: aria-readonly, aria-disabled and required

<AWK> JA: If the properties weren't set in HTML5 the properties could be overwritten

<Joshue> JA: ARIA one are explicitly true and false but HTML5 booleans operate by their presense or lack of

<AWK> JA: Possible conflict in that the ARIA might not override the default browser behavior

<AWK> JN: I think that PF is still working on this

awk: Sounds like what we could do is accept removal draft status of ARIA but then create an action to review whether these techniques are advisory or sufficient.

<Mike_Elledge> +1

jo: any objections to accept proposed response.

RESOLUTION: Accepted as Proposed

<AWK> ACTION: Josh to review whether ARIA1 and ARIA2 should be made sufficient (currently advisory) DUE 2013/11/01 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-279 - Review whether aria1 and aria2 should be made sufficient (currently advisory) due 2013/11/01 [on Joshue O Connor - due 2014-10-07].

[LC-2956] Remove F48

LC-2956

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2956

ME: Seem similar not sure why they are separate tests.

lgr: General failure was written for plain text. We see places were space is used to apply formatting because there is no other. F48 was aimed HTML. It conceivable they could be combined but clarity would be something to look at.

awk: F48 appears in HTML techniques list which helps people find it

ME: neither technique is acceptable for structuring tables.

<Joshue> JA: I don't think they should be combined

lgr: could be combined but have concerned over merging.

ME: I'm ok with keeping them separate

jo: any objection to current response? Response is to keep both failures.

<Joshue> suggested text "so we are not removing F48"

awk: added a line to be clear that we decline to remove the failure.

RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended

[LC-2962] Updated response to 'Placeholder text responsibility'

awk: though we are saying that you need to make sure contrast is sufficient. We might want to mention there is vendor specific CSS prefixes that people should be aware of.
... Perhaps put a technique in queue to create a technique on how to do it.

jo: Are is there any objection to 2962?

RESOLUTION: Accept LC-2962 as proposed

<AWK> ACTION: AWK to add idea for placeholder text technique to techniques development list per response at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thSept2014/results#xnew2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-280 - Add idea for placeholder text technique to techniques development list per response at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/30thsept2014/results#xnew2 [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-10-07].

[LC-2961] Remove example 1 from ARIA7

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2961

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA7.html

jo: idea is that we can replace link text with ARIA labelledby text.
... Mike comment about removing reference to example 1 in description and propose alternative as best practice.

awk: Example 2 reads heading line plus link text.

jo: do other ATs allow for either link text or aria?

<Joshue> JS: We need to consider Screen reader users

<Joshue> JA: This could be used for pagination for tables, search results, file formats

<Joshue> JA: We need to think to different use cases

<Joshue> JA: We could just change example 1. Or come up with a better situation where its more sense to change the link text

jo: Does anyone object to not removing it?

awk: would be good to say this could be an issue, but we have surveyed the results and currently and it is currently supported.

jo: Could Kathy W. chat with Kim Patch?

kw: Will chat with Kim Patch

ME: hope that we find that this is not a problem. Could way to deal with read more.

RESOLUTION: Leave open

LC-2954

<Joshue> Clarify F68 is applicable for controls that use visible labels

<AWK> I agree with that

adam: Wanted to ask if people agree about SC 1.3.1 only applies when visual labels are present
... Additional comments that title and aria-label should be taken out.

<AWK> if a control has no visible label it doesn't fail 1.3.1 for not associating the label it doesn't have with the control. It could fail 4.1.2

awk: If a control doesn't have a visible label then it doesn't fail 1.3.1

<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F68.html

awk: f68 is about failing both 1.3.1 and 4.1.2 but talks specifically about controls that use visible labels.
... test includes a check for a text label.
... It would be ok if a field with visual label has title.

<Joshue> JOC: I come accross the pattern AWK just described a lot repitition of title and Search

jn: other uses cases where you have a visual label and 3 fields such as a phone number. Each much have a different accessible name. Title is a good way of doing that.

Ryladog: We should identify that it's a failure of programmatic connect but its valuable to have these connected.

adam: Why does this mention visual labels at all? To include 1.3.1.
... You could use title or aria-label to pass 1.3.1

awk: Could say if visual label doesn't fully identify control. Title should match visible text label.

<Ryladog> +1 to awk

<Joshue> JA: What about a Likert scale with visual labels, and you can't use them and where ARIA may not be supported.

ME: Dont' want to lose ability to use title as solution for fields like phone numbers.

jn: What is the reason why we want to remove this connect? What are we trying to solve?

RESOLUTION: LC-2954 Leave Open

<Mike_Elledge> Thx!

- DRAFT -

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

30 Sep 2014

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