<trackbot> Date: 10 December 2013

<AWK> Zakim take up agenda item 1

<AWK> Next item

<AWK> Past survey on EM note: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130221eval/results

<AWK> Past survey on EM note: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130221eval/results

<AWK> Related minutes: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/21-wai-wcag-minutes.html

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item01

<AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120830evaltf/results

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120913eval/

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120906eval/

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120830evaltf/

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-wai-wcag-minutes.html

<scribe> scribe: Kathy

ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls

AWK: Kathy's comment is in Example 2 the label is read twice

Marc: are we saying that this is an AT issue

AWK: that is basically where we were on that comment. There needs to be a user agent note or something along those lines. It is coded correctly

Sailesh: Is a landmark is a user interface controls? Example 1 may not belong in this technique

Loretta: wanted to have an examples showing multiple references

AWK: landmark region is a user interface control

Sailesh: cannot interact with it, you can only navigate to it

AWK: may be differences in definitions of user interface controls

Sailesh: should have user interface controls be forms. Landmarks would be separate

Loretta: There is technique for landmarks

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks

Loretta: most interface controls already have native support so it is not needed. So that is why we have this set of examples. We didn't want them to be redundant

Sailesh: suggest using example of form field within a table

Loretta: The other technique has a data table with form field
... maybe this technique needs to have example for label with multiple fields
... maybe we should add more to the description and link to other techniques for more examples

<Loretta> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_concatenate_a_label_from_several_text_nodes

AWK: is the working group ok if there is a simple example such as a search field

Kathy: simple example would be good

AWK: or should we have an example that for and id not available

Sailesh: people would need to look at current support so standard HTML way may be better than aria-labelledby
... a screen reader user would be able to access but other user groups may not

AWK: we should not get into the best approach but look at sufficient or not sufficient

Sailesh: but we also look at AT support, should we provide information on best use in the different scenarios

Loretta: AT support discussion is difficult. If we write something today then it could be wrong in 3 months

Michael: agree with Loretta that this is a moving target. It is up to companies to make the recommendations that go beyond WCAG. The working group needs to limit how far we go down that path

AWK: leave it open
... anyone way to draft some examples - 1. simple form control (search field with aria-labelledby) 2. simple custom checkbox using aria-labelledby
... also include a paragraph that reference the strengths of aria-labelelledby

Sailesh: there is an example in section 9 of the link provided

<scribe> ACTION: AWK to add two examples and paragraph to the technique [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Add two examples and paragraph to the technique [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2013-12-17].

<scribe> ACTION: 234 to ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding '234'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.

ACTION-234: ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-234 Add two examples and paragraph to the technique.

RESOLUTION: Leave open

6. [Start here on 10 Dec] ARIA Technique: ARIA2: Identifying required fields with the aria-required property

AWK: have done some discussion on this
... talked about the procedure, changing the title. Sailesh was going to write best practices for this

Sailesh: it is in the comments in the survey

AWK: this is going to take some editing so we should leave open until next week
... there is useful information but we need to write the paragraph
... issue is that examples do not showcase for aria-required as much as they should
... in first example it is redundant

Sailesh: highlighted items for compliance vs. usability

AWK: some cases it is required and other cases it is benefical for reinforcement

<David_MacD_Lenovo> +q

AWK: do we just need to change the paragraph or another example as well

David: on the fence... whatever language we use, we should foster the use aria-required

AWK: in the meeting last week, there are a number of people who said the duplication is ok. That is not the major concern. AT may do something in the future when this is added and at that time would have more benefit to end users
... maybe it is similar to the last one where we have a custom control

David: what about users with cognitive disabilities? would we want to shift the culture about using * for required fields

AWK: is this just general usability

David: it is usability

AWK: Sailesh has provided some text. Does someone want to write the paragraph and example?

Loretta: the taskforce can do it if it is clear what we want

Sailesh: the main question is if there is no visible indication then is aria-required actually required

David: no

Sailesh: agree

David: does not take the place of a visible indicator

AWK: 1.3.1 so scenario needed is a label like phone number or name and not part of the text is required (CSS image, red outline) and then having aria-required

Sailesh: not appropriate to have 3.3.2 in this technique

Loretta: agreed

AWK: 3.3.2 does the required status count as instructions

<David_MacD_Lenovo> +1

AWK: in example 2, html fields are marked as with asterisk outside the label then aria-required would be satisfied for screen reader users

Sailesh: the instructions are available in text so 3.3.2 is met
... it does not satify 1.3.1

David: likes the example

AWK: we would like a simple example added where * is outside the label and remove 3.3.2 from applicability

Sailesh: I can write up an example

<scribe> ACTION: Sailesh to create example of * outside the label with aria-required and a paragraph for 6. [Start here on 10 Dec] ARIA Technique: ARIA2: Identifying required fields with the aria-required property [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Create example of * outside the label with aria-required and a paragraph for 6. [start here on 10 dec] aria technique: aria2: identifying required fields with the aria-required property [on Sailesh Panchang - due 2013-12-17].

Loretta: may be good to include examples where this would be helpful

RESOLUTION: keep open

AWK: another survey that we will not get to in this meeting
... look at the Evaluation Methodology draft
... we have a call next week
... will discuss if there will be a meeting on 24th and 31st. There are a number of people not available. We will send an email
... how many people are going to CSUN
... we will add the question to the survey

trackbot, end meeting

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Kathy
Inferring ScribeNick: Kathy
Default Present: Kathleen_Anderson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, AWK, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, Michael_Cooper, Cooper, [IPcaller]
Present: Kathleen_Anderson Katie_Haritos-Shea AWK Marc_Johlic Sailesh_Panchang Loretta Kathy_Wahlbin Michael_Cooper Cooper [IPcaller]
Regrets: Joshue Bruce David Alan
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0247.html
Found Date: 10 Dec 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: 234 awk sailesh

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