See also: IRC log
<Joshue108> Scribenick: Bruce
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#xtechsc2
<bbailey> RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed
<Joshue108> 3. Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2663
<bbailey> Discussed last week
<bbailey> Some clean up happened
<bbailey> Salish took action item to rework a bit last week
<bbailey> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_group_role_to_identify_related_form_controls
<bbailey> Edit included updated title
<bbailey> Screen reader behavior for group and radio group is the same
<bbailey> Salish discussses some previous issues with validation on using radio group, but this is not an issue now
<bbailey> Updated title of techniques is http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_group_role_to_identify_related_form_controls
<Joshue108> New title "Using grouping roles to identify related form controls when using fieldset-legend is not practical"
<bbailey> Discus wiki mechanics for rename...
<bbailey> Discus that additional example with custom code example is desireable
<bbailey> See Salish's “Suggested Example 3” in survey response
<Peter_Thiessen> Are we avoiding classes so the code is self contained?
<bbailey> Accept color edit suggestion from Kathy
<bbailey> ACTION: David to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).
<bbailey> ACTION: dmacdona to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-230 - Add example 3 from salish, see email to list [on David MacDonald - due 2013-11-19].
<Joshue108> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/form-markup.htm#tech6
<bbailey> Salish will replicate color change to hosted sample code
<Joshue108> Updated review of F38: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to not marking up decorative images or applets in HTML in a way that allows assistive technology to ignore them
<Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results
<bbailey> leaving open until example 3 done
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
<bbailey> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2652
<Joshue108> F38: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to not marking up decorative images or applets in HTML in a way that allows assistive technology to ignore them
<bbailey> Discus and incorporated edits from Andrew Kirkpatrick
<Peter_Thiessen> +1 remove
<bbailey> Andrew comments accepted
<bbailey> RESOLUTION: Accept as amended
<Joshue108> Updated review of F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image
<Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
<bbailey> Discuss is “pass” == “not fail”
<Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#alt
<bbailey> Discuss that it is very sensitive and controversial to allow any alternative to alt attribute
<bbailey> Discuss that failures are very strong, so that if accessibility support is good for alternatives to alt, failure for any missing of alt may be too much
<bbailey> Issue is test procedure
<bbailey> Discuss that issue is test procedure
<Joshue108> So it seems to me that the test procedure as outlined here is a bone of contention.
<bbailey> Discussion that ARIA provides other mechanism for associating alternative text with images and other elements
<bbailey> Discussion that allowing pure ARIA approach would support ARIA uptake
<Joshue108> +q
<bbailey> Discussion and agreement that technique represents larger issue, and cannot be discussed in isolation
<Joshue108> ack 703
<Joshue108> ack 825.a
<bbailey> Discussion that practical support for title attribute evolved from work on ARIA spec
<bbailey> Discussion that allowing parallel alternative to alt is a big change
<bbailey> Discussion that allowing multiple choices actually increases cost
<bbailey> Discussion that historically we have not allowed title as sufficient
<Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say missed salishes comment
<bbailey> Discuss that title support remains dependent on user agent support
<bbailey> Discuss that hover-text different than accessibility supported
<bbailey> Discuss that requiring alt could change for HTML 5 specific
<bbailey> Discus issue where null alt could contradict ARIA values
<Joshue108> ack .aaa
<Joshue108> ack .aaaa
<bbailey> Discuss that failures are used as anti-checklist in actual practice
<bbailey> Discuss that prohibiting things that are actually accessibility in practice is also a bad precedent
<Peter_Thiessen> Sorry to run, have to run to another meeting.
<bbailey> Discuss if img src missing, only alt provides alternative in default UA behavior
<bbailey> Discuss if img block behavior is comparable to accessibility supported
<bbailey> Discuss AT support for ALT alternative for other AT besides screen readers
<bbailey> Discuss historically uneven support for title attribute
<bbailey> Discuss if we might just focus on test proceedure
<bbailey> ack
<bbailey> Discuss that validity and html 5/4 not the issue
<bbailey> Discuss relate this discussion to controversy over requiring validity (or not)
<bbailey> Discuss that attributes in technique listed hierarchical by parsing tree, not human precedence
<bbailey> Discuss that we could use wider input, but question would need to be carefully crafted
<bbailey> Leave open
<Joshue108_> [Next Week 19th Start here] http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
<Joshue108_> Institutional Memory collection not discussed this week
<Joshue108_> Can everyone please look at the Institutional memory question on the survey
<bbailey> Discuss that ARIA labeled-by is well supported, is as easy a developer rule as alt
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/scribe bruce// Succeeded: s/discus/discuss/ Succeeded: s/Discus/Discuss/ Found ScribeNick: Bruce WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Bruce> ... Inferring Scribes: Bruce WARNING: 0 scribe lines found (out of 212 total lines.) Are you sure you specified a correct ScribeNick? Default Present: David_MacDonald, Joshue, +1.703.825.aaaa, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, Peter_Thiessen, Marc_Johlic, Kathy_Wahlbin, James_Nurthen Present: David_MacDonald Joshue +1.703.825.aaaa [Microsoft] Bruce_Bailey Peter_Thiessen Marc_Johlic Kathy_Wahlbin James_Nurthen WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Got date from IRC log name: 12 Nov 2013 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html People with action items: david dmacdona[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]