WCAG Techniques Task Force (TTF) Weekly Telecon -- 18 May 2005

<leasa> hi ben!

<ben> good morning

<leasa> (afternoon...)

<ben> :)

<leasa> Hi cris!

<ben> scribe: Chris

4.2 (test cases)

<ben> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0360.html

<ChrisR> David will send proposal to list re d-link

<ChrisR> New fangled d-link (description of object)

<ChrisR> BG: did test on IE and object not detected

<ChrisR> BG: HPR will find text for object tag

<ChrisR> BG: even if flash, or whatever, is turned on - passed on to Freedom Scientific

<ChrisR> BG: created DHTML java test file, but can't query object, can post if anyone interested

<ChrisR> DM: hate d-link idea but see no other fallback

<ChrisR> BC: needs to be repair technique

<ChrisR> BG & DM ack

<ChrisR> BG: what about Applet? (not xhtml)

<ben> HTML Tech 12.2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-fallback

<ChrisR> DM: do not want to say that fallbacks are unnecessary, remove note from 12.2

<ChrisR> DM: if baseline is provided is fallback necessary

<ChrisR> MC: keep technique, baseline it and move to 1.1

<ChrisR> DM: agree

<ChrisR> BC: OK

<ChrisR> WC: will be doing summary for 1.1 this week, will work with David

<ChrisR> ACTION: David will put to group, Michael will respond [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action01]

<ben> 12.3 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-altcontent

<ChrisR> DM: delete 12.3 cuz it's covered by 4.2

<ChrisR> BG: they are seperate techs, questions if should be grouped

<ChrisR> DM: we're asking for 2 of same thing (text in 2 places)

<ChrisR> DM: wish text in object would be supported

<ChrisR> BC: not really requiring in 2 places

<ChrisR> DM: perhaps put into 12.3?

<ChrisR> DM: keep as seperate and include d-link idea in 12.4, will post this idea to list

<ChrisR> BC: 12.3 is repair for 12.4

<ChrisR> MC: if 12.4 doesn't work, use 12.3

<ChrisR> ACTION: DM will move d-link funky thing into 12.3 and keep both [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action02]

<ben> 12.5 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#applet-content

<ChrisR> WC: looks like 1.1, why discuss under 4.2?

<ChrisR> WC: should be under 1.1

<ChrisR> DM: propses they go under 4.2

<ChrisR> DM: they are specific to applets and plugins (4.2) not really alt content (1.1)

<ChrisR> WC: need to link examples to SC

<ChrisR> WC: must be clear about mapping

<ChrisR> MC: leaning towards 1.1, BC agrees

<ChrisR> WC: depends on how we define non-text content, if we say non-text is applets etc. then must provide text

<ChrisR> WC: and make applet/object accessible

<ChrisR> discussion of how 1.1 and 4.2 relates and what if 4.2 dropped

<ChrisR> DM: eventually have to deal with this but can drop for now

<ChrisR> WC: have we got a tech for alternate for object if baseline excludes it?

<ChrisR> WC: if applet is sortof eye candy then is covered by techs, critical applets are not

<ChrisR> DM: will look for real-world applets

<ChrisR> DM: move over to 1.1?

<ChrisR> general agreement

<ChrisR> WC looks forward to hearing DM's suggestions

<ben> 12.10 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#download-viewer

<ChrisR> DM: suggest keep as is, minor text change

<ChrisR> MC: artifact of 508 and baseline idea means we don't SC and don't need tech

<ChrisR> BC: example of 2 versions of PDF reader so tech could be usefull

<ChrisR> MC: anyone that doesn't have viewer is affected, not just PWD

<ChrisR> WC: difficult to support tech until 4.2 is resolved

<ChrisR> ACTION: push discussion of 12.10 to Thursday call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action03]

Continue review of 1.3

<David> scribe: dm

<Michael> scribe: David

mc: tim boland summarized existing definitions, John ran with it

js: tim said there was no defn' of technology
... so he put some defn' forward

<Becky_Gibson> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html

js: everybody agrees we need uniform defn'

<leasa> leaving the call

<ben> John's proposed def. of techniques - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html

bye lisa

<leasa> something urgent just cam eup

<leasa> buy

<ben> 1.3 Techniques Issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/att-0345/00-part

bg: suggest we move it out

mc: if there are accessibility implications in the future we will need it

js: JAWS now suports Rowgroup element

mc: use tbody to make row groups

bc: optional because not applicable to talbles
... not needed for all tables
... on simple data table no need to worry about it

js: thead holds headings row...significant for low vision

bg: sounds like css tech

js: lets keep it and a few of us research it

<ben> ACTION: michael, work on examples for technique 7.4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action04]

bg: what's Joe's tbody example?

yup

js: part of it is because techs are so fine grained we are daling with different aspects of it in dif technique

wc: do the need to be separate techniques??????
... but it could get very long

js: is that groupng better suited to the guide doc

wc: if we can just explain our thinking of when to apply these attributes then we teahc them how to make decisions, that would mean it makes sense in html docs. I'm concerned that guide doc, could get long for various html techniques
... would be cool to make a decision tree that helps people understand what decisions to make.

mc: I will make a proposal to make tree doc flowchart

<Michael> ACTION: Michael make tree doc flowchart of selecting table header approach [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action05]

bc: sounds like the application doc we talked about...the guidance that you are bring up is more tutorial oriented

mc: I have a clear picture in my mind

wc: when do you want to bring it to the group
... flowchart is the interesting part. prioritize there

mc: decision tree arod when to use specific table things
... this will help with 8, 9, 10 in 1.3

and 7

<wendy> 11. Categorizing data cells

bg: #11 cites bug 653

wc: intent is to query the data in a data table based on category but I don't think anyone uses it.
... window eyes and Jaws don't do it

js: it tries to turn table into 3 D but I don't understand it

dm: if we don't get it will general public be able to do it

wc: it is part of WCAG 1.0 and so it needs a placeholder

<wendy> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-table-markup

mc: two options throw it out or keep it,

all: out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wc: will put placeholder for transition

bg: math ML

deals with 12.1

mc: let's comment it out

<wendy> 12. Markup and style sheets rather than images: the example of math

js: if we want a math ml tecniques let's ask Neil Soiffer,

wc: he said he would but organizaing it is hard

closede 184

<wendy> 13. CSS styling

<scribe> closed bug 184

bg: let's remove it or give it specific examples

wc: this is what I was trying to get at at the tech lenary. most started with html tests, there is so much overlap with HTML, let's inlcude css in here

mc: next week's agenda will be to include wendy's proposal to include CSS in html techniques
... comment out again

bc: let's just kill it

wc: survey's have go to list we can to a survey on it.

bg: next would be my list of proposed techniques

<wendy> Proposed HTML Techniques.

<wendy> 1 Technique for marking up plain text documents.

bg: if we have to deal with plain te3st documents depending on 1.3 then we have to write a tehniue

technique

<wendy> 2. Do we need an HTML technique for L1 SC3 about color - there are currently none?

mc: perhaps no need for css techniques, no nooed for html technique

<wendy> 3. Perhaps a technique to address Issue #1244, Image-based headings

bg: if they must use img headers should show image based heading wrapper, create a technique

bc: finds headers and dynamically created flash objects, in a specific font,

wc; cool thing about it is text is still text

wc: we can reference this technique

bg: we can't include a techique for flash

<Michael> ACTION: John explore progressive enhancement [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action06]

<ben> sIFR: http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/

bg: we will reference this technique
... select element

wc: thomas casper says they are different,

<wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2004Sep/0013.html

<Michael> ACTION: Becky follow up on issue 1199 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html#action07]

chistophe has guidelines summary for thrusday call, then someone (Chistophe?) can do summary

- DRAFT -

WCAG Techniques Task Force (TTF) Weekly Telecon

18 May 2005

Attendees

Contents

4.2 (test cases)

Continue review of 1.3

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output