A "joke" in the glibc manual
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A "joke" in the glibc manual—targeting a topic that is, at best,
sensitive—has come up for discussion on the glibc-alpha mailing list
again. When we looked at the controversy
in May, Richard Stallman had put his foot down and a patch removing the
joke—though opinions of its amusement value vary—was reverted. Shortly
after that article was published, a "cool down period
" was
requested
(and honored), but that time has expired. Other developments in
the GNU project have given some reason to believe that the time is ripe to
finally purge the joke, but that may not work out any better than the last
attempt.
The joke in question refers to a US government "censorship
rule
" from over two decades ago regarding sharing of information
about abortion. It is attached to documentation of the abort()
call in glibc and the text of it can be seen in the patch to remove it. One might think that
an age-old US-centric joke would be a good candidate for removal regardless
of its subject matter. That it touches on a topic that is emotionally
fraught for many might also make it unwelcoming—thus unwelcome in
documentation. But, according to Stallman, that's not so clear cut.
The GNU project recently adopted the "GNU Kind Communications Guidelines", authored by Stallman, that seek to help maintain a welcoming tone in the project's communications. With that in mind, Matthew Garrett re-proposed removing the joke:
Carlos O'Donell, who is one of the glibc maintainers and who called for the
cool-down period, was supportive
of the patch (as he was back in May).
He praised the new guidelines and said that he expected them to "cover
all forms of communication including the manual,
website, and social media, and not just email
".
But he studiously avoided talking about
the content of the joke as a reason for removing it; instead he noted the
confusion that it has caused along the way and that it "does not
support the present intent of the manual, which is
to provide accurate technical information for the GNU C Library
".
O'Donell said that wanted to hear from Alexandre Oliva, who had reverted the change back in May, to see if he still had objections. Oliva replied that he did not think the guidelines should cover manuals, just interactive discussion forums, such as email, IRC, and social media. But he did concede that he may have misunderstood the intent of the guidelines and wanted to hear what Stallman had to say on that.
For his part, Stallman seems to agree with Oliva:
These guidelines as such do not apply to manuals. Kindness as a general principle surely does apply to manuals, but precisely how remains to be decided.
He noted that he had recently added a statement into the GNU maintainer
guide that "humor is welcome _in general_
" and that the
project rejects "the idea of
'professionalism' which calls for deleting humor because it is
humor
" (though that does not yet appear in the guide at the time of
this writing). In order to even consider the question of the
abort() joke, there are several "broader issues
" that
need to be resolved
first, he said.
According to Stallman, the joke "opposes censorship
", which is
also a position of the GNU project, so the joke is "not an
unrelated political issue
". However, the oblique reference to a gag
rule on abortion information, which was imposed on organizations receiving
US aid off and on since 1984, may not really come through in the joke.
Even many US-based glibc users might be hard-pressed to link it to the Mexico City
policy that it is targeting. Even if they did, a joke buried in a
manual for an unrelated C library is not likely to have any real impact on
the rule (which has been rescinded by Democratic presidents and reinstated
by Republican presidents since it was first enacted).
When pressed for more information about what these larger issues are, as O'Donell did, Stallman counseled patience. He did not offer any more information than that; perhaps the discussion has moved to a private mailing list or the like.
For many, including me, it is a little hard to understand why there is any opposition to removing the joke at all. It is clearly out of place, not particularly funny, and doesn't really push the GNU anti-censorship philosophy forward in any real way even if you grant that anti-censorship is a goal of the project (which some do not). There are, of course, those who oppose removing it because they are opposed to "political correctness" and do not see how it could be "unwelcoming", but even they might concede that it is an oddity that is poked into a back corner of a entirely unrelated document. And it is not hard for many to see that tying the topic of abortion to a C function might be upsetting to some; why waste a bunch of project time defending it when it has effectively no impact in the direction that Stallman wants, while putting off some (possibly small) percentage of glibc manual readers?
As was noted in the article back in May, the GNU project is run by a (hopefully benevolent) dictator in Stallman. Ultimately, he gets to decide what goes into project communications and can dictate the tone for its community (thus the guidelines). It is a bit weird to claim that all project communications except the manuals need to be "kind"; Stallman hasn't exactly said that, but that is kind of how it comes across. Digging in his heels, for unclear reasons, on this particular issue just seems like something a benevolent dictator might find a way to avoid.
Posted Nov 7, 2018 22:15 UTC (Wed)
by jhoblitt (subscriber, #77733)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 13:34 UTC (Thu)
by civodul (guest, #58311)
[Link] (6 responses)
No, GNU doesn't exist as a formal organization (I'm a GNU maintainer). Rather it's a loose group of people supposedly sharing values and goals and willing to work on consistent pieces of software. So as you write, this heavy-handed behavior of Stallman's is strategically a very bad idea.
RMS keeps saying "we" or "the GNU Project" when he really means "I". This new episode is another instance of that. Phrases like "the GNU Project adopted these guidelines" make little sense: they were written by RMS alone and put on-line without discussion. Even though they come from the project's founder, I see little legitimacy in those guidelines. For me, governance of a project of this size cannot be left to a single person.
Stallman's announcement of these guidelines was itself controversial, attacking codes of conduct and disregarding their motivations. This, also, does not represent GNU. Many like me are at odds with this vision.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 16:21 UTC (Thu)
by SEJeff (guest, #51588)
[Link] (2 responses)
Shortened: At what time does RMS become too toxic for GNU to exist and as a result the entire thing is forked?
Posted Nov 9, 2018 16:23 UTC (Fri)
by civodul (guest, #58311)
[Link]
Over the years many GNU packages have taken steps to protect their independence: some have their own infrastructure, and some like GNOME left GNU for all practical purposes. This is collateral damage of authoritarianism.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 16:26 UTC (Fri)
by SEJeff (guest, #51588)
[Link]
Posted Nov 13, 2018 0:09 UTC (Tue)
by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418)
[Link] (2 responses)
There's been quite a lot of discussion on GNU internal mailing lists and just based on a cursory glance, it seems that significant parts of the GNU kind guidelines came directly from what maintainers suggested. Are you on those lists?
Posted Nov 13, 2018 22:49 UTC (Tue)
by civodul (guest, #58311)
[Link] (1 responses)
There _has_ been a lot of discussion on that list, no doubt about it. Perhaps Richard was somewhat influenced by these discussions and some maintainers do like these guidelines, but saying that the text "came directly from what maintainers suggested" is a bit of a stretch given the disagreements we've seen. It's unfortunate that that mailing list is private.
Posted Nov 14, 2018 23:57 UTC (Wed)
by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418)
[Link]
Posted Nov 7, 2018 22:24 UTC (Wed)
by admalledd (subscriber, #95347)
[Link]
With that said, regardless of the content of this instance, I can agree on the confusion it can cause. Most other humor in software (admittedly I only strangely have seen in the proprietary space, quite ironic...) is in footnotes or other such with language akin to "Flavor text: <joke here>" or "Aside: ..." and so on. The idea being that it specifically is extra/separate from the main content be it documentation or tooltips or annotations or so on. The specific lingua franca though on how to place/call it: meh, not important to me so long as it fits.
Posted Nov 7, 2018 22:49 UTC (Wed)
by vstinner (subscriber, #42675)
[Link] (35 responses)
I concur with the author, I don't see the point of keeping the joke, as it clearly hurt some people, and it adds nothing useful to the abort() manual page. I don't think that a manual page is the right place to express your political opinions. There are better places than that which have more impact.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 2:22 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (18 responses)
When it comes to jokes and other such things it's good to remember that offense is taken, not given.
> I don't think that a manual page is the right place to express your political opinions.
The joke is at the expense of the US government. I don't buy that people are upset about it because it doesn't suit their political views. This all just seems like a very weak attack against GNU.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 10:28 UTC (Thu)
by Funcan (subscriber, #44209)
[Link] (17 responses)
The people who make claims like that are generally not the people who are the butt of jokes all day, not the people with PTSD, and not the people who're systematically discriminated against by the society they live in.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 11:37 UTC (Thu)
by hkario (subscriber, #94864)
[Link] (14 responses)
the joke is about _people that make the rules about abortion_ not anybody else
and in general, you can claim outrage and offence about everything, but somehow we don't treat people seriously that are offended by being served by a sinister waiter (as in left handed)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 11:45 UTC (Thu)
by Funcan (subscriber, #44209)
[Link] (11 responses)
Pain happens, and every single person has their triggers. If you're lucky then they are few and obscure.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 20:44 UTC (Thu)
by kklimonda (subscriber, #60089)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Nov 10, 2018 4:41 UTC (Sat)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link] (8 responses)
Drawing this line can indeed be a difficult question. Yet I bet most people would place abortion on the same side of this line no matter what are their opinions about it.
How about removing the joke because... it's not funny? That could be easier to demonstrate.
Posted Nov 10, 2018 15:27 UTC (Sat)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (5 responses)
It is funny to some.
>That could be easier to demonstrate
It is entirely subjective so that is obviously not true.
Posted Nov 10, 2018 17:29 UTC (Sat)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link] (2 responses)
> It is entirely subjective so that is obviously not true.
I enjoy dark humour and I know many people who do. However that's always been in private with close friends and typically late at night under some "influence". I have never, ever met anyone who would find dark humour funny completely out of blue and alone while reading software documentation. The only way to find this joke funny in such a situation is to be completely foreign and oblivious to the _psychological_ pains of abortion. That's consistent with the absurd comparison with childbirth that was made at some point.
Posted Nov 10, 2018 22:01 UTC (Sat)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (1 responses)
Now you have.
Posted Nov 11, 2018 1:57 UTC (Sun)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link]
> Now you have.
Depends how you understand "to meet", let's say I "found" a few. Clearly anything can be found in the Internet.
Posted Nov 12, 2018 10:14 UTC (Mon)
by jond (subscriber, #37669)
[Link] (1 responses)
Weirdly, professional comics somehow determine what of their material to cultivate, and what to cull. So there is some basis upon which jokes can be evaluated.
Posted Nov 12, 2018 22:31 UTC (Mon)
by lsl (subscriber, #86508)
[Link]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_ca...
Posted Nov 15, 2018 11:55 UTC (Thu)
by Zolko (guest, #99166)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 15, 2018 15:02 UTC (Thu)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link]
Posted Nov 9, 2018 0:24 UTC (Fri)
by clicea (guest, #75492)
[Link]
Posted Nov 12, 2018 10:13 UTC (Mon)
by jond (subscriber, #37669)
[Link] (1 responses)
and if it was a better joke that would be clear, and there wouldn't be the collatoral damage that there is.
Posted Nov 19, 2018 1:05 UTC (Mon)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 16:00 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (1 responses)
Find a person whose PTSD was triggered by this joke and you might have an argument. Not a single such person has come forward so far so using the hypothetical existence of them to attack a simple joke is kind of ridiculous.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 11:01 UTC (Fri)
by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 2:45 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (14 responses)
What are these "diversity reasons" exactly?
Posted Nov 8, 2018 3:52 UTC (Thu)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 14:08 UTC (Thu)
by cpitrat (subscriber, #116459)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 16:16 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 18:14 UTC (Thu)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 18:16 UTC (Thu)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Thanks.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 18:45 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link]
So likely born in the mid 1800s. That would be around 5 generations from me, possibly only 4 from you.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 19:19 UTC (Thu)
by raegis (guest, #19594)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 22:02 UTC (Thu)
by vstinner (subscriber, #42675)
[Link]
You're welcome :-) Sadly, the terms commonly used in Unix and IT in general, like master_fd, slave_fd for openpty() or the SLAVE command of the NNTP protocol, cannot be easily changed. I only changed the terms where better terms could be used and easily replaced. Again, I only modified 7 lines, whereas Python is around 500K lines :-)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 23:31 UTC (Thu)
by Paf (subscriber, #91811)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 23:39 UTC (Thu)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link] (2 responses)
----
Although they are in extremely common use, the terms "master" and "slave" do not actually appear in current versions of the ATA specifications. The two devices are simply referred to as "device 0" and "device 1", respectively, in ATA-2 and later.
It is a common myth that the controller on the master drive assumes control over the slave drive, or that the master drive may claim priority of communication over the other device on the same ATA interface. In fact, the drivers in the host operating system perform the necessary arbitration and serialization, and each drive's onboard controller operates independently of the other.
Posted Nov 11, 2018 3:45 UTC (Sun)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link] (1 responses)
While the spec may call them device 0 and device 1, that belies the actual relationship because I've seen the rules that you can't have just device 1 on a bus. If you have any device at all, you have to have device 0.
Does anyone know what the actual role of device 0/master is?
Posted Nov 11, 2018 12:34 UTC (Sun)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
Look at section 9.16 Single device configurations in the ATA-5 draft. The only thing that's problematic is that device zero is supposed to identify the state of the PDIAG- and DASP- signals it sees, while device 1 asserts DASP- during reset; without device 0's presence, the host cannot determine the state of PDIAG-, and thus may have trouble identifying the cable type (as it cannot distinguish "faulty device 0" from "no device 0 present").
Posted Nov 9, 2018 7:23 UTC (Fri)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link]
This is probably not because of slavery but just people having an unconscious preference to people that look closer to themselves.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 3:58 UTC (Thu)
by [email protected] (guest, #52701)
[Link]
Posted Nov 15, 2018 11:48 UTC (Thu)
by Zolko (guest, #99166)
[Link]
Posted Nov 7, 2018 23:02 UTC (Wed)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (6 responses)
There is a profound difference between "I will communicate better" and "You will communicate better". The guidelines appear focused on helping people who wish to adopt the first attitude (an attitude that it encourages), not on helping people who wish to adopt the second. You could argue that Richard's announcement contains language which condemns the second approach - though it isn't a precise parallel.
Given this, it seem inappropriate to me for the GKCG to be used to promote this patch. It may well be an excellent and long overdue patch, but the end doesn't justify the means.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 11:40 UTC (Thu)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Nov 9, 2018 1:11 UTC (Fri)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (4 responses)
Because a project doesn't communicate - individuals communicate on behalf of a project. Possibly several individuals will team together to create a communication on behalf of the project.
I don't think it is consistent with the stated purpose of those guidelines to use them to judge how other people are communicating. Were you to wish to guide people how they might judge others, you would create a very different document. Such a document may well be related the "broader issues" that RMS is apparently considering - it is certainly a "different" issue, though it is related.
> In other words: who do you think are the "I" and "You" in this instance?
"I" is always the individual who is creating the text or speech. It is also a person who approves a text or speech (as they are effectively repeating the text/speech and making it their own responsibility too).
Thanks for asking.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 1:54 UTC (Fri)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 9, 2018 5:13 UTC (Fri)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (1 responses)
BTW, while rereading the guidelines I noticed "If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, please make an effort to cater to them." and wanted to thank you for making the effort. I think that is really valuable, and it is appreciated.
Posted Nov 15, 2018 18:21 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Which is why the linux raid wiki editing guidelines state pretty much "please write in the *first* person and take *personal* responsibility for what you write".
Imho there's far too much emphasis on third-person impersonal writing that takes responsibility for nothing. (Plus 1st-person is much nicer to read :-)
Cheers,
Posted Nov 9, 2018 6:57 UTC (Fri)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 0:53 UTC (Thu)
by karim (subscriber, #114)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 12:40 UTC (Thu)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 22:22 UTC (Thu)
by JFlorian (guest, #49650)
[Link]
Posted Nov 12, 2018 10:16 UTC (Mon)
by jond (subscriber, #37669)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 2:25 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link]
The specific ruling or policy is not at all necessary for one to understand the implications of the joke. It sounds plausible enough that even if no such ruling or policy was ever made it would still be funny.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 2:31 UTC (Thu)
by balkanboy (guest, #94926)
[Link] (1 responses)
And if you think that's a bad joke, you should watch/listen to Anthony Jeselnik.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 3:19 UTC (Thu)
by luto (subscriber, #39314)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 2:48 UTC (Thu)
by em-bee (guest, #117037)
[Link]
does it? i am reading his quote differently:
> These guidelines as such do not apply to manuals. Kindness as a general principle surely does apply to manuals, but precisely how remains to be decided.
i read this as:
greetings, eMBee.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 10:19 UTC (Thu)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (12 responses)
As a non-American I will say that this "policy" is much better known as the "global gag rule" and that rather than pretending it's about something from "two decades ago" it's actually central to modern Republican philosophy and was, on schedule, re-instated by Trump soon after becoming President and then expanded, the US currently spends _billions_ of dollars covered by the gag.
The reason it's "sensitive" is that tens of millions of Americans prefer to live in a dream world where their decision to vote for awful things doesn't make them responsible for awful things happening. Some people might insist that it matters whether these voters actually believe in awful things or not, but actually it doesn't matter at all. Your beliefs die with you, your actions continue to have consequences.
The global gag rule is very real today, a complete repudiation of the American pretence to believe in "freedom of speech" since it literally prohibits speech. If you wish it was an irrelevance that could safely be forgotten about _stop voting for Republicans who reinstate it_. Let's revisit this "joke" when it stops being a reality.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 10:41 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (3 responses)
It doesn't prohibit speech in the USA, because that would make it unconstitutional. But the Bill of Rights does not extend to black or brown people elsewhere in the world, whose freedom of speech the US government may suppress at leisure.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 16:40 UTC (Thu)
by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106)
[Link] (2 responses)
There is no such qualifier anywhere in the Constitution. It would violate the 1st Amendment for Congress to make any law abridging anyone's freedom of speech, domestically or abroad. In the latter case, of course, there is the further issue of jurisdiction: Congress has no power to make laws for non-citizens outside US territory, so any law which attempted to prohibit speech by non-citizens abroad would be null and void. The same applies to the executive and judicial branches; anyone attempting to enforce such a rule cannot claim any authority to do so based on the US Constitution. Any special status they might claim as an agent of the US government (which would include members of the military as well as diplomats) is conditioned on adhering to the restrictions set down in the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights; Congress authorizing or directing anyone to abridge the freedom of speech—anywhere in the world—would constitute passing an unconstitutional law in violation of the 1st Amendment.
Of course, a person could act *without* any blessing from Congress or the Constitution, but at that point they they're just acting as private individuals outside US jurisdiction on their own initiative and without any special protection, not as representatives of the US government.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 18:01 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
Of course the “global gag rule” doesn't try to limit freedom of speech directly. What it does instead (in its most recent, Trump-enacted, version) is withdraw US government funding from any non-US health organisation that promotes voluntary family-planning activities, including but not limited to abortion, even in jurisdictions where, e.g., abortion is legal. This amounts to almost $9 billion/year, and can reasonably be considered an indirect damper on freedom of speech for those organisations.
Posted Nov 18, 2018 20:59 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
So how come UK citizens have been extradited to, charged, and imprisoned, in the US for crimes against US law, which were perfectly legal when they were committed *in the UK*.
Cheers,
Posted Nov 9, 2018 8:20 UTC (Fri)
by jensend (guest, #1385)
[Link] (1 responses)
You deride at length others' "decisions to vote for awful things." I did vote for a third party rather than vote for Trump. But I and many others feel that jabbing a person through the skull, sucking his or her brains out, crushing the skull, and tossing the body in a dumpster qualifies as an "awful thing." I don't want to be compelled by the threat of violence and incarceration to pay for foreigners to receive advice to do such things.
LWN comments are supposed to provide a forum for civil technical discussion. It's not supposed to be a forum for off-topic bashing of others' political views, nationalities, &c. Quit it.
Posted Nov 15, 2018 12:37 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
> But I and many others feel that jabbing a person through the skull, sucking his or her brains out, crushing the skull, and tossing the body in a dumpster
> It's not supposed to be a forum for off-topic bashing of others' political views, nationalities, &c. Quit it.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 9:37 UTC (Fri)
by roblucid (guest, #48964)
[Link] (5 responses)
This could provide convenience features like ensuring CAPS Lock is on, spell check disabled and any facts to be displayed with a fake news warning too...
Posted Nov 9, 2018 15:04 UTC (Fri)
by XTerminator (guest, #59581)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Nov 11, 2018 17:22 UTC (Sun)
by roblucid (guest, #48964)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 12, 2018 5:41 UTC (Mon)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (2 responses)
I am perpetually pointing people at george carlin's riffs on language when these threads go on.
I *NEED* a good joke after writing OR reading documentation. *anything* to break the monotony. I reach for george carlin, or henry rollins, or bill hicks.
I'm kind of sad I can't tell blond or pollack jokes anymore without people taking offense. about the only stereotypical jokes I feel I can make anymore are drummer jokes...
... because they're all true. :)
What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?
Homeless.
Posted Nov 12, 2018 18:04 UTC (Mon)
by johannbg (guest, #65743)
[Link] (1 responses)
Q: Do you know the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
A: It only takes one nail to hang up the picture... ;)
Drum solo plz
Posted Nov 12, 2018 18:35 UTC (Mon)
by XTerminator (guest, #59581)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2018 15:47 UTC (Thu)
by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452)
[Link] (18 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 15:53 UTC (Thu)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (17 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2018 21:58 UTC (Thu)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (4 responses)
This is an interesting take (PDF)
Posted Nov 9, 2018 7:31 UTC (Fri)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 9, 2018 11:15 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Posted Nov 9, 2018 8:18 UTC (Fri)
by jensend (guest, #1385)
[Link] (1 responses)
Can we please have less of such propagandizing on LWN?
Posted Nov 9, 2018 11:19 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
You obviously didn't read the paper. The authors were certainly not advocating abortion as a crime control measure, as indeed neither am I. They were simply making statistical observations.
If anti-choice people really want to be pro-life, they'll consider the lives of women and their children through adulthood rather than just focusing on embryos and fetuses.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 9:09 UTC (Fri)
by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452)
[Link] (11 responses)
Whatever you take on the subject is, not talking about it doesn't help anyone. You may still want to reconsider your stance on taboo though: Countries where abortion is more openly talked about tend to have lower abortion rates, if that is what you care about.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 11:25 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Posted Nov 12, 2018 17:38 UTC (Mon)
by johannbg (guest, #65743)
[Link] (9 responses)
Long story put short all done to further emphazise and support the fact that this is entirely a womans choice at her own free will if she wants to proceed with or terminate her pregnacy.
Her body,her life,her choice it's as simple as that after all we live in the 21 century not the middle ages anymore. . .
Posted Nov 19, 2018 1:04 UTC (Mon)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (8 responses)
Well, abortion concerns more than just the woman's body and life. It ends another life.
Posted Nov 19, 2018 2:07 UTC (Mon)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (3 responses)
In practice, the significance/importance of that "another life" ends the moment that life is actually born.
Posted Nov 19, 2018 18:17 UTC (Mon)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 19, 2018 18:47 UTC (Mon)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 19, 2018 21:08 UTC (Mon)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Thanks.
Posted Nov 19, 2018 2:23 UTC (Mon)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 19, 2018 13:42 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Nov 19, 2018 5:43 UTC (Mon)
by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452)
[Link] (1 responses)
So does many people's lunch. And that would be a self-sustaining life, unlike that of a fetus.
That actually makes me worry whether a significant part of the "pro-life" crowd is merely in the business of inventing twisted definitions of what life is in order to make women lives miserable.
A side note: the free software community doesn't usually seem to care either. I remember that Seth Vidal objected addition of a meat joke to Yum (which he maintained), but nobody seems to have seriously protested the whole "Fedora Beefy Miracle" joke.
Posted Nov 19, 2018 11:41 UTC (Mon)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Punishing women is usually the primary intention, and occasionally you see it explicitly stated as such. After all, the pregnancy is proof positive that the woman "sinned" -- and any suffering she experiences as a result is not only (obviously richly) deserved, but that any sort of social assistance for said mothers would be rewarding her for her sins.
Consequently, there's a substantial overlap between political pro-lifery [1] and those who are actively trying to dismantle the social safety net that is often the only thing keeping these mothers and their "every life is sacred" new babies from being kicked to the curb. (It seems that "life" is only sacred when it's in foetal form, and said sacredness ceases the moment it pops out of its mother. Similarly, the mother's "life" is only sacred when it's carrying said fetus within it)
I do find this attitude rather curious, given that the lion's share of pro-lifers [1] claim to follow a religion that was founded by an individual they claim was born out of wedlock, and whose highly revered mother suffered all manner of depredations as a result.
Okay, this is _way way way_ off topic. I'll shut up now.
[1] In my country. I can't comment on how this plays out elsewhere.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 0:40 UTC (Fri)
by Rudd-O (guest, #61155)
[Link] (4 responses)
With that, your chances to use your OSS/FS work as leverage into the software industry are dead. Unless, of course, you become, in every aspect of your life, an unfunny automaton who cheers for conventional wisdom and caves to sentimentality, and never says what it's actually on his mind.
Do not forget, freethinker, that they want you broke, mum or dead to others, your contributions stillborn or defaced, and they think it's funny.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 1:08 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 12, 2018 11:37 UTC (Mon)
by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 12, 2018 12:30 UTC (Mon)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 13, 2018 13:14 UTC (Tue)
by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958)
[Link]
Posted Nov 9, 2018 5:03 UTC (Fri)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link] (4 responses)
It isn't funny, never was funny, and never was meant to be funny. It's just a snide remark, directed at nobody who will ever end up reading it, or even hear about it from anybody who did.
It makes me think of cars plastered with shrill bumper stickers bemoaning developments of modern life. The owner knows no one would ever read what they have to say without being forced, for a fractional minute, by a red light.
The only effect will ever be readers' irritation at the project's inability to stay on topic, and not waste their time. In particular, it never generates irritation directed at the US government. (Anyway, if the US govt cared who was irritated at it, we wouldn't be where we are now.)
Posted Nov 9, 2018 7:29 UTC (Fri)
by Yui (guest, #118557)
[Link]
This is subjective. It did get a decent chuckle from me for example. I'd say it is at least moderately funny. Certainly more funny than a lot of the comedy I've seen from stand up comedians and sketch shows in the recent times.
>and never was meant to be funny.
Surely you as the author would know. Oh right, you aren't the author. The author, RMS, calls it a joke. This clearly indicates that the intention is to be funny.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 8:34 UTC (Fri)
by jensend (guest, #1385)
[Link]
Having a self-expressive bumper sticker does seem more benign to me than putting an irrelevant, potentially confusing, US-centric snide remark in basic system documentation and instigating a turf war to keep it.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 15:32 UTC (Fri)
by hummassa (guest, #307)
[Link] (1 responses)
Because it is a joke, regardless of your sense of humour, or lack thereof, and regardless if you find it funny or not.
> It isn't funny,
Yes it is
> never was funny,
Yes it was funny since it was written
>and never was meant to be funny.
And yes, it was meant to be funny and worked. The fack that it isn't funny for you do not change it.
> It's just a snide remark, directed at nobody who will ever end up reading it, or even hear about it from anybody who did.
Because there are nor will ever be any software developers amongs policymakers in DC? That's your argument?
> It makes me think of cars plastered with shrill bumper stickers bemoaning developments of modern life. The owner knows no one would ever read what they have to say without being forced, for a fractional minute, by a red light.
And still some of them can be funny jokes.
> The only effect will ever be readers' irritation at the project's inability to stay on topic,
As RMS stated, properly, only if you think a Free Software project has nothing to do with Free Speech values.
> and not waste their time. In particular, it never generates irritation directed at the US government. (Anyway, if the US govt cared who was irritated at it, we wouldn't be where we are now.)
It's not directed at the US government, it's directed the US policy makers. Not the same thing.
Posted Nov 12, 2018 3:08 UTC (Mon)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link]
Yes, policymakers in DC do not read glibc man pages (never mind info pages!), nor pay attention to those few among software developers who do, and might accost them with, "hey you gotta read this snide remark I found on a software manual page, maybe it will change your mind". If they did listen, it might well change their mind: it would lead them to shun that software developer, if they had any sense.
"Supreme executive power derives from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!" That's funny and effective. It wasn't in a glibc info page.
Posted Nov 9, 2018 23:52 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (6 responses)
If only 1% of the hours spent blowing hot air over this charade were put toward improving musl…
Posted Nov 9, 2018 23:57 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Nov 11, 2018 19:08 UTC (Sun)
by tao (subscriber, #17563)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 12, 2018 5:43 UTC (Mon)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 12, 2018 22:19 UTC (Mon)
by lsl (subscriber, #86508)
[Link]
It's mostly a kernel arch support thing, though. The libc side code is straightforward:
http://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/time/clock_ge...
Posted Nov 12, 2018 0:40 UTC (Mon)
by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 15, 2018 17:01 UTC (Thu)
by dalias (guest, #95815)
[Link]
Posted Nov 15, 2018 11:39 UTC (Thu)
by Zolko (guest, #99166)
[Link]
Posted Nov 16, 2018 9:13 UTC (Fri)
by ledow (guest, #11753)
[Link] (1 responses)
Literally, this would be a "sigh, okay... people are upset, and this serves literally no purpose whatsoever... it takes two seconds to revert it without affecting anything whatsoever, or we can discuss it for weeks on end... <applies patch to remove it>. Done. Real work now?"
Posted Nov 19, 2018 13:38 UTC (Mon)
by jezuch (subscriber, #52988)
[Link]
Posted Dec 8, 2018 8:06 UTC (Sat)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Dec 11, 2018 11:11 UTC (Tue)
by tao (subscriber, #17563)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Dec 17, 2018 8:31 UTC (Mon)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Jul 8, 2020 13:16 UTC (Wed)
by ceving (guest, #140015)
[Link]
But consider this: I have never read about the Global Gag Rule. An article about RMS brought me to this article. And a few clicks further I have read the Wikipedia article about Global Gag Rule.
So the joke created a controversy. The controversy created an article about the controversy. The article got referenced by others. And in the end a reader like me knows the Global Gag Rule.
You have to admit: the joke pushed many things.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
That being said, I agree that the joke is rather stupid and out of place, but it seems it, and discussion around it, is becoming yet another front in the political correctness war.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
and how would the removal of a hidden joke about abortion change this if the name of the function remains abort() ? This thing is *NOT* about hurting people but about political correctness, in other words censorship, self-censorship in this case, which is clearly a core motive behind GNU and LibC. Stallman is right in defending this issue.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
I would recommend either educating yourself or, to put it mildly, fornicating off in the general direction of being a gobshite somewhere else.
Last enslaved person died in the US in 1971. It's not even two generations away. And that's not even taking into account Jim Crow and the shit that's still happening stateside.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
I think we can safely say that this particular subthread has gone far enough afield at this point; can we please stop it here?
This is a good stopping point
A "joke" in the glibc manual
The black Americans aren't that affected by slavery compared to many other ethnic groups around the world. There is still quite a large number of people who live in effective slavery like conditions. If you care more about people's feelings about their grandgrandparents having been slaves than the people who live in effective slavery even today then I can't really take your concern about it seriously.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
I'm African American, and the effects of slavery on me, my family, and most other African Americans I know are still present. A good example: the average net worth of African Americans is somewhere close to zero. And no, this is not the result of laziness or some other nonsense you were taught. My mother watched semi-literate white dudes get promoted above her for years. So I won't be getting that inheritance of $100,000+ you will get from your parents, precisely because of discrimination which has continued since slavery.
Back on topic: I never participated in the master/slave discussion, but I do remember rolling my eyes when I learned about the master/slave hard drive assignments to ATAPI. Back then it seemed silly, and inaccurate-- primary/secondary might have been better, since master/slave suggests complete control of one by the other. Regardless, I'm glad people are removing it.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
I always wondered what the relationship between the two devices on an ATA bus is.
ATA master/slave
ATA master/slave
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Please stop.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
it clearly doesn't add anything useful to the abort() manual, but in what way does it hurt people ? It's not clear at all for me. If people are hurt by the *concept* of abortion, in either way — pro or contra — then it's the very *name* of the function that is hurting them, not some obscure joke. Do you support a proposal to rename the function ? (like terminate() or end() or whatever() )
A "joke" in the glibc manual
They are *not* presented as a guide to an enforcement agency explaining how other people should be communicating.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
In such cases, it would be entirely consistent with the apparent purpose of the Guidelines for those individuals to use the guidelines in determining how they, personally, will communicate.
So if I write a patch to the documentation, I would consider it appropriate to follow the guidelines.
If I were asked to review a patch, and found that the communication style of the patch (or the result of the patch) did not fit my understanding of the guidelines, I would think carefully about whether I should approve it.
I wouldn't say "you cannot say that, it contravenes the guidelines".
I might say "I don't want to approve this because I feel it speaks in a way that is discouraged by the guidelines".
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
It takes ownership of the opinion, and declares an intention and desire to follow a particular path that is known to be welcome, without suggesting that anyone else is required to make the same choice.
If someone has a different position, that need not be seen, in itself, as contradicting the guidelines.
The guidelines guide your conduct, but do not resolve your disagreements - you still need to do that yourself.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Wol
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
"An older version of the glibc manual had this to say about the abort():
.....
This was a reference about X. After community debate it was agreed to remove it from the official document and put it here so that I can be appreciated in its full context."
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
the guidelines do not apply to manuals because they were not written with manuals in mind. but then he explicitly states that kindness does apply, and it does so without depending on the guidelines to make it so. so the way i see it there is no exception to kindness for manuals. but rather that the new guidelines do not specify how that kindness is to be applied.
Global Gag Rule
Global Gag Rule
a complete repudiation of the American pretence to believe in "freedom of speech" since it literally prohibits speech.
Global Gag Rule
Global Gag Rule
Global Gag Rule
Wol
I'm tired of the one-sided political baloney in too many discussions here
I'm tired of the one-sided political baloney in too many discussions here
That makes you a Trump enabler, because it was clear that the third-party candidates weren't going to win.
The typical abortion boils down to taking a pill, taking another pill a few days later and then menstruating. It says something about you that you choose to argue in such a dishonest way.
Some political views deserve to be bashed, like most republican views these days. And most US citizens understand this, as can clearly be seen from the results of the popular votes over the last 20 years.
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
lwn should have a thumbs-up button for comments just like this one.
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
Couldn't resist it
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
I'm glad we are still allowed to say things without being arrested or it being censored. (that's not a jab at lwn, but a general remark on the insanity that is contemporary pc )
REPUBLICANLY_CORRECT
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Fetuses. FTFY.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Not on topic for LWN
Not on topic for LWN
A "joke" in the glibc manual
This is true. Fascinating.
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
This is increasingly off-topic for LWN; perhaps this particular discussion could be moved elsewhere if it really needs to continue?
Let's stop here, please
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Care to post an example?
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
What joke?
What joke?
What joke?
What joke?
What joke?
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
http://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/internal/vdso.c
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
tying the topic of abortion to a C function might be upsetting to some
it's not *a* C function but *the* C function called abort() !!!
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
A "joke" in the glibc manual
Overstanding Pro-Choice
For many, including me, it is a little hard to understand why there is any opposition to removing the joke at all.
Though you wrote a significant article on the issue, I can only advise- "dwell on it more". It shouldn't be that hard to understand _any_ opposition. Really.
It is clearly out of place,
I call B.S. The person who put it there in the first place thought it fit there.
not particularly funny
clearly not particularly funny to you is clearly not the same thing as clearly not particularly funny to anyone.
and doesn't really push the GNU anti-censorship philosophy forward in any real way even if you grant that anti-censorship is a goal of the project
Oh, au contrair, I'd have to say the article you wrote about it is proof that its existence furthered pushing that philosophy, using you as an instrument. Imagine how much more visibility the philosophy has now, than a year ago.
This scenario I consider a wonderful display of the liberty of F(L)OSS. For goodness sake, if anybody cares enough they can fork, call it mylibc, and allow any others who share the preference to follow their fork. I think the real issue is that people were under the illusion that there was some magical democracy-like community in charge of glibc, when in fact it's a (debatably optimal/malignant/benign) dictator. And the related issue of certain F(L)OSS factions that see many slightly differing forks and competition and _choice_ among them as net-negative due to userbase confusion, instead of net-positive due to maximal choice for the userbase.
Overstanding Pro-Choice
there are plenty of better sources for such.
Code Politics
A "joke" in the glibc manual
For many, including me, it is a little hard to understand why there is any opposition to removing the joke at all. It is clearly out of place, not particularly funny, and doesn't really push the GNU anti-censorship philosophy forward in any real way even if you grant that anti-censorship is a goal of the project (which some do not).
This sounds right.