Wiktionary:Tea room

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A place to ask for help on finding quotations, etymologies, or other information about particular words. The Tea room is named to accompany the Beer parlour.

For questions about the general Wiktionary policies, use the Beer parlour; for technical questions, use the Grease pit. For questions about specific content, you're in the right place.

Tea room archives edit
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Please do not edit section titles as this breaks links on talk pages and in other discussion fora.

Oldest tagged RFTs

• quirinalis
  Ilyinichna
  linear
  Черняк
  harkee
  most
  shadowing
  belly dance
  half
  Surinam
  away
  series
  address
  amen
  joke
  how much
  imaginary
  catalogue
  on purpose
  notch
  based
  berm
  rayon
  bok choy
  Aster
  nasal cavity
  dies Mercurii
  -stan
  monosemic
  tweener
  tacet
  take its toll
  no thank you
  eat like a horse
  چھہ
  червь
  sum of its parts
  uninvited
  gender-neutral
  classique
  carhouse
  turn the tide
  chicken-or-egg question
  cornus
  family
  rumped
  Bereshit
  -to
  code point
  Sukhumi
  manso
  over skyerne er himlen altid blå
  regnbuefamilie
  multivarious
  Indon
  α΄
  orignal
  don't try to teach grandma how to suck eggs
  speech recognition
  hazelly
  pirmas
  ne bis in idem
  Euthemia
  otocrane
  hagdon
  caviar to the general
  lipsati
  native bread
  RGSS
  arena rock
  pasar por las horcas caudinas
  one over the eight
  rhina
  Wesson
  smuggling raisins
  monolid
  ကာလယဲ
  smeť
  search up
  war hero
  war-hero
  watercressing
  green privilege
  Chinese landing
  Dağ Türkleri
  one's heart bleeds
  phrogging
  ၐြဳ
  one's house in order
  efilism
  mukt
  tjälknöl
  radiendocrinology
  lightning bruiser
  Jacboson
  Andersdr
  on someone's ass
  churtle
  Lipović
  dunnarf
  Єфінгар
  Ефингар
  unprovenienced
  diving bell spider
  Huddel
  

May 2025

marrying my person

I see people use "my person" to mean someone they love ?above all others?, someone who understands them, usually a partner ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]), but sometimes a mom, or best friend. Other people may refer to X as being Y's person, e.g. "her person" (her beloved sister). This feels like a distinct sense of person to me, that we should add. What do you think? We do cover "one's man" (boyfriend / husband) as a distinct sense of man, and "one's woman" (girlfriend/wife) as a distinct sense of woman... - -sche (discuss) 03:44, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't remember having heard it, except referring to a pet's favorite human, but it would be distinct and definition-worthy. DCDuring (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

OK, I added it (a while ago).
Should we also add the "(from a pet's perspective) favourite human" sense? I can see how it might be less idiomatic, "her [the cat's] person" being akin, in the reverse, to "his [the human's] cat". - -sche (discuss) 07:29, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

mycoderma

My research led me to believe that this is an old term for biofilm. Am I mistaken? 85.48.186.0 19:48, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

It is quite plausible and likely that some people have used the word in that sense, albeit dated now. We see the def from Webster 1913 at mycoderma, which sounds like it is a hyponym of biofilm; and I have a certain nice little juicy technical dictionary from 1946 that defines Mycoderma (with a capital M for MMM-MMM good) as a genus of fungi that form membranes in fermenting liquids, although a late-model technical dictionary says that the taxonomy was revised and that that genus name is no longer current. Wikipedia redirects Mycoderma to mother of vinegar because of the same connection, which is explained at that article. But the plot thickens though, just as the juicy membrane in the vat thickens and quickens apace. The 1946 number also says that at least some people used to call mucous membranes by the name mycoderma, too, and that makes fair etymonic sense and fair ISV-ish sense (where myco- in that homonym would be serving as an antiquated spelling for muco-, via the etymonic mucus–mushroom axis from Ancient Greek), although that sense of the word is certainly no longer in current use. In short, apparently all sorts of slimey hides have been called by this name, mycoderma, over the past 150 to 200 years, but no senses of the word remain current in English. Quercus solaris (talk) 22:23, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

etcétera syllable breaking is incorrect

For the Spanish section of the Wiktionary page etcétera, the IPA transcription for Latin America and Philippines is incorrect because it puts the stress symbol and syllable breaker (ˈ) before the first t in /etseteɾa/ and [et̪set̪eɾa], resulting in the incorrect /eˈtseteɾa/ [eˈt̪se.t̪e.ɾa] instead of the correct /etˈseteɾa/ [et̪ˈse.t̪e.ɾa]. The Spanish Wiktionary page describes it correctly. I would've changed it myself, but when I went to edit, all that was written in the code was "{{es-pr}}", so I'm assuming it's all automated. If someone else could format it properly, that would be good. Languagelover3000 (talk) 12:55, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

It seems that this aspect is governed by Module:es-pronunc at lines 457 to 465, but I'm incapable of twiddling with it, from two angles: both programming and phonotactic expertise. The comment at 457 talks about intercepting -ts- and -tz-. Is there a flaw in the handling, or, the other possibility, is this one of those things where phonologists use an etic analysis of phonotactics that doesn't invariably align with the emic one used by nonlinguist native speakers? Phonotactic boffins could weigh in; WP at Spanish phonology § Phonotactics is relevant, but I'm unable to pursue it deeply. This might be like when a nonlinguist native speaker of English says that pizza is "peet-suh" but some linguist might say, "au contraire, it is in reality "pee-tsuh" but nonphonologist minds just don't realize it." I suspect it's one of those going on here, but I welcome disabusal if that hunch is incorrect. Quercus solaris (talk) 13:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I very much doubt that that's the case—where untrained, non-linguist (non-phonologist) natives would not be able to hear a difference between two sounds but phonologists (that are maybe even non-natives) would because they study the subject. I'm not saying such cases don't exist, just that it's not the case here. I don't even think that it's a case of emic and etic analyses clashing. Instead I really do believe there's a mistake in the transcription. Reading through Spanish phonology § Phonotactics, this is what they say concerning the Spanish syllable structure:

• Onset
  • First consonant (C₁): Can be any consonant. [...].
  • Second consonant (C₂): Can be /l/ or /ɾ/. Permitted only if the first consonant is a stop /p, t, k, b, d, ɡ/, a voiceless labiodental fricative /f/, or marginally the nonstandard /v/. /tl/ is prohibited as an onset cluster in most of Peninsular Spanish, while /tl/ sequences such as in atleta 'athlete' are usually treated as an onset cluster in Latin America and the Canaries. The sequence /dl/ is also avoided as an onset, seemingly to a greater degree than /tl/.

The conclusion here is that the onset of a syllable (portion before the vowel, or the "nucleus") can be any consonant in the case that the onset be just one consonant. If it's two consonants, then the second one can only be /l/ or /ɾ/, and that's only if the first consonant is /p, t, k, b, d/ or /ɡ/.

In this situation, the word etcétera is being transcribed as /eˈtseteɾa/ [eˈt̪se.t̪e.ɾa], which break the phonotatic rules described in that section (the second consonant can only be /l/ or /ɾ/, not /s/). Therefore, it necessarily is incorrect. Languagelover3000 (talk) 18:22, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't explain words like tseltal and tsotsil where the cluster is at the beginning of the word. Not that I have anything to say about the question at hand, but loanwords don't always follow the general rules for the language. @Benwing2, who would know more about the coding behind this. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:46, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

@Languagelover3000 You can override the syllabification by inserting a . in the appropriate place in the respelling. The handling of /ts/ is there because of Basque and Nahuatl words in Spanish where /ts/ is treated as a unit. All words with /ts/ in them are loanwords and, as Chuck notes, don't always follow regular phonotactic words. Since there are very few words like etcetera in Spanish, I think requiring manual syllabification here is fine. Benwing2 (talk) 21:39, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm making this as a response to both @Benwing2 and @Chuck Entz:

So, yes, that is a good point: those types of words do have /ts/ as onset. But like you two suggest, it's more likely (or at least it seems to me) that foreign words from Basque or Nahuatl get treated a bit differently in respect to Spanish's phonotactic restrictions; that is, they can break the "rule" of only /l/ or /ɾ/ after first consonant in onset syllabic position. But I'm going to make the assumption that a word like etcétera would still be pronounced with the syllable break between the /t/ and /s/ because it's a Latin word, which itself originally had a syllabic break between /t/ and (before palatalization) /k/. Compare that to the two word examples tseltal and tsotsil, which were (definitely only) pronounced as [t͡s-] (and not [tˈs-] or something like that) when they were borrowed into Spanish.

About manual syllabification, could someone more knowledgeable on Wiktionary's markup language go about doing it? Since all that appears in etcétera's edit page for the pronunciation section is "{{es-pr}}", I don't know what template I'd put to reflect the change or if I'd even be able to insert some period. Everything in its edit section seems automated. It's different from some English entries (e.g. example), where all the pronunciations are more "manually" written out.

Also, I don't know if it's worth mentioning that another word, botsuano, with the stress on the second syllable, just like the word etcétera, has its syllabification annotated "as expected" with the syllable break between /t/ and /s/. (And yes, I'm of course ignoring all the portuguese sections of the entries mentioned that probably have the same issue). Languagelover3000 (talk) 03:06, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

On'yomi of 濁

The entry 濁点 says that the reading of 濁 used in that word is だく (daku), and says that this is a go-on. However, the entry 濁 says that daku is not a go-on of that character but a kan'yō-on, and the entry for the extended shinjitai form 浊 also says that it's a kan'yō-on. Which one is it? TTWIDEE (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Ah, this is a bit tricky...

濁 is kan'yō-on according to 小学館 デジタル大辞泉, but according to the same dictionary, 点 is either kan'-on or gō-on. So it's a kind of mixed on'yomi reading for a 熟語. Though, I've forgotten the proper term to refer to mixing different on'yomi readings. It's the same thing that happens in words like 生涯 too! The term just escaped me... Oh well. Whatever that term would be, that's what should be written in the place of gō-on. Languagelover3000 (talk) 19:05, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Or, you could just remove the gō-on bit altogether, just like it is on the Wiktionary page for 生涯. Languagelover3000 (talk) 19:24, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I just ended up doing it myself. Languagelover3000 (talk) 03:10, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

ring-a-ding

• And then he was totally unprepared for his ring-a-ding winner.
• So you didn't want to make a night of it with the ring-a-ding kid?
• Then the midnight rap about arson with his ring-a-ding attorney.
• Drink played a large part in Sinatra's ring-a-ding arrogance.
• The brittle bones grow colder now / And the wind begins to sting / As I grow old in the family / And it aint so ring-a-ding-ding.

What do you interpet ring-a-ding as meaning? (Small prior discussion.) - -sche (discuss) 01:38, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Not a whole lot. This looks to me like many speakers intending to mean any of various things, each of which is either in the eye of the beholder or context-sensitive. At least one of them feels like a catachresis for ding-a-ling as in idiot. The winner-related one might possibly refer to a ringer, which is related to a ringer, but (for all of these usexes) one cannot tell in isolation from the original context. Quercus solaris (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

It looks to me like a synonym for flashy or showy. It reminds me of bells and whistles, and of the kinds of things that a slot machine does when there's a payout. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:12, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

"Ring-a-ding(-ding)" was Frank Sinatra's catchphrase, which seems to be what some of those cites are referring to. To quote The New Yorker where quote 4 comes from, "The phrase—like Shakespeare’s “Hey nonny nonny”—thumbed its nose at meanings and sincerity". The same article also talks about "the image of the loosey-goosey, unpredictable ring-a-ding guy", and I'd say it's associated with a kind of shabby but arrogant style, the style we associate with the Rat Pack. I think of it as the attitude of a confident gambler imitating a cash register. Another similar quote here, where "ring-a-ding(-ding)" clearly means "in the style of the Rat Pack": "The tumbler he (Dean Martin) was clutching was filled with apple juice, not whiskey, and the King of Cool was fully aware the sold-out crowd was there to see him and his pals create some ring-a-ding-ding musical magic", and Tim Robinson uses the phrase for his Rat Pack parody persona "Sammy Paradise", who the AV Club describes as "a ring-a-ding-ding Sinatra type who flaunts his wealth and generosity with true king-of-the-world largesse". Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:46, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Having looked up the context for the other quotes: the "ring-a-ding winner" was the mood ring and its unexpected sales success (so presumably an additional pun on ring); the "ring-a-ding kid" is Christian Stovitz from Clueless, who is into art and fashion (and is gay, although I don't think the speaker realises); the "ring-a-ding attorney" is a very expensive one. The "It ain't so ring-a-ding-ding" quote seems pretty clear in context. Apart from that last one, they all seem to be to do with class and money, but in nebulous ways. Smurrayinchester (talk) 07:32, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I have tentatively changed the definition to "A rhyming phrase with no fixed meaning." - -sche (discuss) 15:39, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Might be the best we can do for now, although I've tried to split out the Rat Pack sense. Smurrayinchester (talk) 07:42, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

initially

Does this have a sense of “if nothing changes”, “in the current state of things”? Initially, let’s stick to the plan, but do reach out if things change. Polomo47 (talk) 04:39, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't think so. Your usage example fits the basic definition. DCDuring (talk) 14:28, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Where does Wiktionary source its dialectal synonyms for Chinese words?

I'm curious as some of the entries might be incorrect or are missing synonyms for other cities. Is there a dictionary that Wiktionary has been sourcing these from, or are these all orginal research? LittleCuteSuit (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

These are contributed by our editors from various sources. Like all of the full entries they will, of course, have to meet our Criteria for inclusion, but contrasting "a dictionary" with "original research" seems to indicate that you're unfamililar with our CFI. Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary based on usage, so it's possible- even preferred- to source terms just with sufficient evidence of usage. We have a distinction between Well-documented languages, which must be sourced based on usage, and Less-documented languages, which can be sourced from authoritative reference works as well. Chinese is unusual in being a macrolanguage, with a large number of independent languages which are LDLs, attached to standard written Chinese, which is a WDL. That means that the "dialectal" synonyms (really part of the regional lects rather than of a single Chinese language) can be verified from reference works. See Requests for verification/CJK, which is how we decide whether to include or exclude Chinese, Japanese, and Korean terms (in the broader sense). I'm not directly involved in the verification process, so I may be missing something. Perhaps @Justinrleung could explain further. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:10, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm wanting to know if is there a specific place for me to see the sources for these listed synonyms in the Chinese dialectical synonyms box listed in entries, such as from Cantonese, Southwestern Mandarin, Hokkien, etc. For example, 電影, 電腦 and 肥腸 do not seem to provide any sources for their dialectal synomyms. Or for 火車, there might be something referenced for Min Nan, but not for 火車兒, referenced in Nanjing Jianghuai Mandarin for that entry.

You're right that I was unfamiliar with Wiktionary's CFI and I appreciate the clarification. It's just that the sources for these Chinese dialectical synonyms do not seem to be obvious to me, and I just want to know if I'm missing something here. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@LittleCuteSuit: Because it's hard to maintain the sources we use in each of these large tables, I keep the major sources I use in these lists: User:Justinrleung/Dialect Resources. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:35, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Part of the nature of the project is that it's always possible that the methods and sources of any particular contributor are not entirely known by the others. Justinrleung shows (above) a nice example of helpfully being explanatory about one's own mechanisms: "this is how I do it" and "here's what I'm working with". My point in this comment is just to point out the fact that the way the project works is inherently decentralized to the extent that the answer to the OP question is partly unknowable by anyone except the contributor who contributes each piece. Epistemically, the corrective mechanism is that if any one particular contributor messes up badly enough, their flawed contributions might be retroactively combed out by anybody else, although the valid ones will often be conserved (when feasible). Quercus solaris (talk) 03:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Thanks, these are extremely helpful. I do notice that some of the Mandarin dialects don't have resources linked to them on the page that was provided (such as Southwestern Mandarin). Would you happen to know of any resources that are being used for those dialectical synomyms for those Mandarin dialects on Wiktionary? Such as for 打雷, there are dialectal synonyms listed for those particular Mandarin dialects that don't have their own resource pages in the provided link. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 15:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@LittleCuteSuit: I'm slowly filling those pages in :) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:38, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Huddel

Like many Luxembourgish entries by the same person, this had a number of problems with the formatting. While I can fix most of them, I'm not completely up to speed on how we handle collocations such as the following:

Huddel a Fatz:

1. (slang) torn to shreds, smashed to pieces

This has all the features of a sense line, including a usage label and a definition. Is there some way to integrate it into our collocation infrastructure, or is this better treated as a derived term that will eventually be its own entry? Chuck Entz (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

that's mighty white of you

I can also find google books:"that's very white of you" and google books:"that's really white of you" (though that one might be in a different sense?) and google books:"that's white of you", as well as forms with "that is" instead of "that's". Maybe that's white of you should be the lemma and the others should be soft-redirected to it...? - -sche (discuss) 18:18, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

At white#Adjective (sense 13) we have "Honourable, fair; decent." with a number of citations. I'm not at all sure that all the cites unambiguously support the sense, nor that the number that do are sufficient. If the sense is good, then we could do a senseid redirect from the form under discussion and, perhaps, include it in the entry as a usex, provided it is the most common attestable with this sense. DCDuring (talk) 19:45, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Other modifiers of white in synonymous expressions: damn, darn, how. Once one excludes all these modifiers, one is left with a lot of column-parsing errors.

Notably there aren't many usages with other pronouns for you, which supports the non-gloss definition. IOW, it may be worth keeping forms of this because of its (former) role in discourse as a way of saying "thank you". DCDuring (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Ah, I hadn't even thought to look for versions with "him", "her", etc, but you are right that they are amply attested as well. Looking at the other quotes at white, I suppose these forms should indeed redirect to (or be deleted leaving only) white. - -sche (discuss) 22:50, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Does the OED have the relevant sense of white or did someone force it? It could be that white in this expression has always been about race, though Century 1911 has a def. "(slang, US) square; honourable, reliable". Maybe whatever racism may be involved is just in the sense evolution in the US. See Indian giver. I came across a Bartlett's Dictionary of Americanisms (1846) online. It's interesting for what it suggests about American culture then. It has some cites. Bartlett's introduction is also instructive. DCDuring (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

notchboard

This means a part of the stairs, but the term is old fashioned. Reading https://specializedstairs.com/anatomy-of-a-staircase/#:~:text=Understanding%20Treads%2C%20Risers%2C%20and%20Nosings,the%20front%20of%20the%20riser it seems to be called the stringer fascia, but I can't be auto they're the same thing 85.48.184.114 20:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

fascia

As noted in a comment from 2009, the usage note "The plural fascias is used for the first five definitions while fasciae is used for the sixth" is not very useful. There are 10 definitions, and the order has probably changed since then. A fine-toothed comb may well be necessary 85.48.184.114 20:19, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

I fixed it. Quercus solaris (talk) 18:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Circular definition alert

journalism (usually uncountable, plural journalisms)

  1. The activity or profession of being a journalist.

journalist (plural journalists)

  2. One whose occupation is journalism, originally only writing in the printed press.

 ​‑‑Lambiam 10:13, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Sense 1 at journalism is the typical useless redundant vague definition - the proper definition is sense 2. I can't think of anything that would count as sense 1 journalism that's not covered by sense 2. Merging sense 1 and sense 2 would solve this problem. Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Fixed. I combined even sense 3, since the style is connected to the purpose by which the described media is consumed. The self-understanding of the profession can hardly distinguish there either. I am also reminded of the definition of freedom of artistic expression according to constitutional law, where in my country there have been formal concepts (art is certain genres like painting, etching etc.) but from the side of the creator it is defined as a material act based on his impressions taking shape by the help of a form; it will probably have to be seen in the same way for the freedom of the press, found in the same constitutional article. Fay Freak (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

There used to be a time when the only outlets for journalism were newspapers or other periodicals appearing in print, a medium that is entirely excluded by the definition.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:16, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Good point (such printed papers were also excluded by the old wording of sense 2, I see); I have attempted to include them. Please improve the definition further if needed. - -sche (discuss) 00:17, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

orthotone

This is a linguistic term, which Wiktionary is usually good at defining. Personally lacking sufficient linguistic knowledge, I am reluctant to give examples of this. I hope someone can add a couple of examples of orthotone words, or at least mention some languages that this refers to - Ancient Greek, for a start 90.167.190.9 06:43, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

たいと思う

I have important question: does "たいと思う" have meaning "to be going to"? 88.155.37.143 11:55, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

assoilzie

Is the IPA OK? It's a weird place for a silent z Vilipender (talk) 17:58, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

It's not really a "z", it's a ȝ (“yogh”), and it's probably Middle English/older Scots quoted or imitated by people who had no idea that there was a difference. Either that, or the IP mistranscribed it from the quotes. See the DSL entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

On further examination of the revision history, this isn't the IP's fault- it goes way back, and was edited by people who should have known the difference. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

And it's apparently spelled that way in the sources. Although it's technically wrong, it may be like the "y" in "ye olde", which was originally a thorn and which had a "th" sound, but ended up looking like a "y". Looks like it'd pass rfv (as Scots at the very least), but it should have an explanation in the etymology and probably usage notes as well so people know what's going on. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:52, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

It also looks like I can't read, either. The question was about "the IPA", not "the IP". I struck the mistaken parts. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:57, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

hair nicknames

Nickname for someone with red hair: Red. Nickname for someone with blond hair: blondie. One, should Blondie start with a capital B, or should red be made lowecase? Two, what do you nickname someone with brown hair, or black hair? Buildingquestion (talk) 22:35, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Apartheid Defense League

Hello, tea room. This term that I created a page for seems contentious. An editor wants to add the category Anti-Semitism to the entry, but I disagree with this; none of the quotations I found for the term seem to be anti-Semitic, so the label seems inappropriate. I don't feel like getting into an edit war over this, so I though I'd seek out a more thorough consensus here. What are your thoughts on this? ArcticSeeress (talk) 03:58, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

@ArcticSeeress I'm a little weary of involving myself in such a contentious topic, but I have decided to revert the editor you mentioned. At a glance, it is not at all obvious to me why the term would be antisemitic, as the term is a criticism of a specific action the organization has taken and makes no statement targeted towards an ethnicity or a religion. The other editor has also made no attempt to justify why they think it is antisemitism.

If they continue to edit war I think admin involvement is justified. — BABR・talk 04:46, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

𐌳𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌴𐌻

Hoping I'm formatting this all correctly..

Are we sure that the attested form here is nominative? The sentence it is in reads like it should be accusative, which would match the previous two sentences.

þuei daniel us baljondane laiwane munþam manwjane du fraslindan ganasides - You who saved Daniel from the mouths of roaring lions ready to swallow up

The source and reading of this line is the Bologna Fragments found a little over a decade ago, which has since been reanalyzed and a lot more of the text has been revealed than when it was first discovered. The reading I'm using is Zum gotischen Fragment aus Bologna II: Berichtigungen und neue Lesungen / The Gothic fragment from Bologna: Corrections and new readings found here Enblaka (talk) 00:22, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

disk horse

I don't think this is a filter-avoidance spelling...? Who filters the word "discourse"? I think it's just a joking/mocking respelling. - -sche (discuss) 18:00, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Though the Eggcorn Database has items that are similar, I doubt that anyone would make from discourse the kind of misconstruction that we would call an eggcorn. DCDuring (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

decern#Verb

This is really confusing. There are lots of verb "senses" without definitions, and an intransitive is listed as a subsense of a transitive, and Lord knows what. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:489B:8100:6C6E:FADA 11:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Wow, even for Doremítzwr, a sense that just says ### {{non-gloss|{{l|en|transferred sense}}}} and nothing else is ... rough. I have reorganized the entry not not have third-level subsenses. It could probably still be improved further. - -sche (discuss) 20:23, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

pane

One definition is "One of the flat surfaces, or facets, of any object having several sides". Can we get some examples? I was thinking a box, dice, but they didn't check out 90.174.2.127 11:30, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

It should probably be merged with the other definition there: "A division; a distinct piece or compartment of any surface." — Anyway: a wall or door can have wooden panes (not covered by the primary sense of a pane of glass). 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:489B:8100:6C6E:FADA 12:31, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Moving translations of master to head of household

Definition 4. in master is "head of household" and has its own translations, yet a separate head of household page exists just for the term. A case could be made for copy-pasting the translations to the term page (and then it could be referenced with a hyperlink). What is the typical handling of such situations? Kaloan-koko (talk) 06:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Master means a “male head of household” with the female equivalent being “mistress” - we have senses at mistress which cover the sense of “female head of the household” but we don’t have that precise definition or translations for it. Perhaps we should also create a new definition at mistress and link all three entries or translations pages somehow? Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:50, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. I will place the translations in head of household, a trans-see in master, create subdefinition 1.1 for mistress and add trans-see in the translations there. Kaloan-koko (talk) 05:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

out of all

As in I met John, out of all people; today, out of all days; now, out of all times. Should this be created? Or is the number of nouns that can occur in this construction sufficiently small that they should be created individually? 2.207.102.157 14:56, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Or perhaps better yet: should this be added at "of all", since we already have that lemma and the "out" can be omitted. 2.207.102.157 15:00, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

I've had a go at adding a sense at of all. Smurrayinchester (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

flat-fell seam

Which sense of fell is this using? Vilipender (talk) 20:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

The "stitching down" noun; see felled seam for something similar. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:599C:154E:91EF:59B5 21:30, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

whatever butters your...

bread, toast, biscuit(s), muffin, grits...? Please add some of these phrases. The definition is easy: synonym of whatever floats your boat. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:599C:154E:91EF:59B5 22:53, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Added all except the last. J3133 (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

pongo

Can someone revert the edits from @SlippyLina on pongo? They were banned for nonsense edits. Looks like they added nonsense about a canyon and deleted the primate bits. 207.237.211.20 03:06, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

I restored the removed senses, but tagged the added senses and posted them at WT:RFVE just to be safe. SlippyLina's MO involved making their nonsense as innocuous as possible, so it's entirely possible that they had some real stuff mixed in with the fraudulent bits. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:36, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

integrate

Definitions 1 and 3 look quite vague, they were integrated from Webster 1913. Also, transitivity tags, more usexes and quotes would be useful Vilipender (talk) 07:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Had a go at a clean up. Sense 1 appears to be dated or a bit rare, so I've moved that down the page (although I didn't feel confident labeling it), and I've split what was sense 2 into two senses - one transitive and one intransitive/reflexive. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

toothing

This is missing stuff. I found 3 missing senses in stamps, botany, biology (sans defining, sorry). There's probably more missing. There's a rfi for the brick sense that is probably imageable from some brickwork diagrams (1911EB might show it, I'm no expert. We can probably get a botany pic too, and some "random sexual encounters" pics??? Vilipender (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

chocolate chocolate chip definition doesn't make sense

"A flavor with a chocolate-flavored base and chocolate chips." A cake could have a flavored base; I don't see how a flavor could have a flavored base (though it might have just a base). You also can't add chocolate chips to a "flavor" or taste, only to a product like a cake. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:E40B:542:EB88:8564 16:16, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

The def as written is valid in one way albeit poorly worded in another way. The problem is that it tries to use the same word within the same line in two senses of that word. It starts out by using the sense of the word "flavor" meaning any particular named variety. For example, if I tell you that Restaurant Foo has ten flavors of ice cream, two of which are "strawberry Miami surprise" and "crunchy Seattle lowdown", and that the flavor called "strawberry Miami surprise" has a strawberry-flavored base, then you catch my drift. I will reword the existing def if no one beats me to it. One way to do so would be, "A flavor with a base tasting like chocolate and with chocolate chips interspersed throughout that base." Quercus solaris (talk) 20:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

scroll verb senses a little strange

The first verb sense, to change one's view of a computer display, is put down as transitive, and doesn't include the arguably more common intransitive sense. There is one example sentence for this sense, "She scrolled the offending image out of view." There is not, however, a sentence like "He was scrolling on his phone and not paying attention" with an intransitive use. I don't know if the entry just hasn't been updated in a while or if someone forgot to add the intransitive sense, but it seems like this should be taken into account. BillMichaelTheScienceMichael (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

 Done Added. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:E40B:542:EB88:8564 21:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

allowance citation

The 1991 Gay Community News citation contains the word "lacklustrer", which seems wrong. I can't find the source in order to check it. Could someone check it? (or we could replace this inflammatory political citation with something else). 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:E40B:542:EB88:8564 21:05, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Although citations are not inherently disqualified for being hard to independently verify, nor for being political, it's a point against them if they contain an apparent typo and are undiscoverable online for checking the original; so in this instance I switched instead to another citation of the same age that (at the time of this writing) can be verified easily. Quercus solaris (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

As Quercus solaris said, we should not remove quotations just because they are about political topics. Something being "undiscoverable online" seems more like a point for keeping than omitting it, assuming the citation is accurate and useful for illustrating the sense or historical usage of a word. I don't think it needs to be removed assuming @Simplificationalizer is able to verify that it was correctly copied (or fix it). I can imagine "lacklustrer" potentially being used intentionally as a comparative of "lacklustre", but that might not be as likely as a typo for the positive adjective "lacklustre"/"lackluster". Of course, each ux should be evaluated based on the overall context of the entry, and this one may be redundant to the others, or its use of the unusual form "lacklustrer" may be an unnecessary distraction if we can't figure out whether it was intended by the author.--Urszag (talk) 01:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Lacklustrer is not a typo (or if it is, it's in the original newspaper). The original article can be found digitized here and all of Gay Community News is searchable here in the Northeastern University Library Digital Repository.--Simplificationalizer (talk) 02:25, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Aha, thanks for the link. It's a typo that was present in the original. I'll restore the citation and include {{sic}}. Quercus solaris (talk) 02:37, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Why must it be a typo? It could also be interpreted as a rare comparative of lackluster I guess. Hftf (talk) 02:51, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

I also think it is most likely a typo, though I don't have proof of it: most results for a Google search of "lacklustrer" seem to be clear typos. Synthetic comparatives are not common for unprefixed three-syllable words.--Urszag (talk) 02:56, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I too noticed the possibility of a rare comparative (which is plausible), but I consider it about 5% likely to be that and about 95% likely to be a case where someone wrote lacklustre and someone (either the writer or a subeditor) meant to change it to lackluster but flubbed it a bit. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:03, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

When it's a common word that has existed for centuries with millions of usages, like allowance, I do think we can afford to avoid politically inflammatory examples that have typos, and should do so. Of course not if we need them to cite something obscure. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:7951:BADB:CD17:6366 14:41, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

translate - mix of RP and GenAm pronunciation

RP (traditionally, at least) has final stress: /tɹɑːnzˈleɪt/. GenAm on the other hand has initial: /ˈtɹænzˌleɪt/ (as well as final, but it seems initial is more frequent). The audio recording is labelled as RP, but the stress clearly follows the GenAm pattern. Could the recording be labelled somehow to note this discrepancy? — Phazd (talk|contribs) 23:42, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

headlight on

Wrong SOP Vilipender (talk) 07:53, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Chew with gums

When an old person have no teeth, he/she eats by chewing the food using gums. In Norwegian (and Icelandic?) it calls mumpa, and in Russian it calls жамкать. I want to create these entries, but dont know the English translation. What should the English word be? Tollef Salemann (talk) 08:34, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

To gum. Nicodene (talk) 09:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! Tollef Salemann (talk) 10:03, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

@Tollef Salemann: Also to mumble (perhaps related to your mumpa above). 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:7951:BADB:CD17:6366 14:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

I've never heard that sense before. CitationsFreak (talk) 07:54, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Portuguese haicai vs. haicu

Why is a haiku referred to as haicai in Portuguese, considering that haikai has a different meaning? If haicu is mentioned in a dictionary, it is almost exclusively treated as a synonym of haicai. OweOwnAwe (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

I’ve always heard of them as synonyms, with haicai being more common. Dictionaries confirm it: Michaelis’s definition for haiku links back to haicai, and Infopédia has the same definitions for both (note that both do not list haicu nor haikai). The Lisbon Academy of Sciences spells the two with a ⟨k⟩ and in italics and makes them share a headword! Polomo47 (talk) 22:14, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

pəˈteɪtə, ˈwɪndə, etc

Various words that end in /-oʊ/ can also be pronounced with /-ə/: potato, fellow, tomato, yellow, window, mosquito, follow, pillow, tomorrow, borrow, arrow, etc. How should the /-ə/ pronunciation be labelled? (Do different words have different levels of 'standardness' and need different labels?) For potato, Merriam-Webster and Collins' Penguin Random House present /-ə/ as just another American pronunciation without any qualifiers like "colloquial" or "nonstandard", whereas neither dictionary acknowledges e.g. /ˈwɪndə/. - -sche (discuss) 05:44, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

I’d say that all of these should just be labelled as colloquial. If anything the least colloquial or most standard of these is, to my eyes/ears, the version of tomorrow with the schwa, especially in compound phrases like ‘tomorrow morning’ and the version of arrow with the schwa is the most colloquial or least standard. We might want to consider how we treat things like foller/follae/folly and winder/windae/windy/windee (the last two of which we don’t currently have entries for but which I’ve seen used to represent an Appalachian pronunciation of window which is basically identical to the Scottish/Scots windae). Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:14, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Not at all, if not in labelled regional pronunciation. You will not distinguish levels if taking various dialect areas into account, which may have them all /-ə/, or /-ɐ/, or /-ɪ/, or /oː/, all in Broad Yorkshire mapped in graphs with statistical variation between villages, age-groups and specific words. We have to admonish again that regiolectal marks are not nonstandard and not necessarily restricted to colloquial contexts. In addition, this is arbitrarily picked; the trailing vowel of happy, ready, is also /-ə/ e.g. in Mancunian. Fay Freak (talk) 11:33, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

OK, having previously added potato as "colloquial" (US) on the strength of its inclusion by other dictionaries as an unmarked pronunciation (pace FF), and the parallel tomato (used by Gershwin et al), I see we already had tomorrow as colloquial, and fellow as "informal", which I adjusted to "colloquial". Inspired by yellow being labelled "folk speech" (and Southern US), I labelled window as "colloquial, folk speech, nonstandard", and added the schwa pronunciation to mosquito with the same label. We already have a schwa pronunciation of arrow labelled "Estuary English, Southern US"; I left it as-is for now. I haven't added a schwa pronunciation to follow, pillow, borrow, nor e.g. shadow (mentioned here).
I note that some words seem to resist a schwa pronunciation, e.g. avocado (google:"avocaduh" returns just 50 hits from the whole web, none of them uses AFAICT: almost all of them are usernames, or a portmanteau of Billie Eilish's Bad Guy line). Avacado also mainly pluralizes with bare s (es is about 1/20th as common), unlike tomato, potato which overwhelmingly pluralize with es; perhaps some degree of 'naturalization' and/or 'weathering' is needed before a word gains a schwa ending. - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

It’s an interesting issue, there is also narrow and widow to consider. These pronunciations can vary quite a bit from person to person, or place to place, or between social classes. I’d say that without doing a proper academic investigation labelling all as ‘colloquial’ would make sense (though ‘avocaduh/avocader’ is certainly non-standard, if it exists at all). Reading the thread below about ‘dumbo’ brings to my attention the fact that words ending in -bo rarely (never?) get pronounced with a final schwa. For example in the following sentence: “The bimbo Greta Garbo, with legs akimbo, danced the limbo”. Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:23, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

measure for measure

Wrong POS/defn Vilipender (talk) 10:43, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Portuguese muai thai

Shouldn't it be muay thai or muaythai? Those are the most widely used forms, present in the name of the Confederação Brasileira de Muaythai Tradicional (CBMTT). I don't think there is a standard "Portuguesified" orthography for this term. OweOwnAwe (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Agreed and moved to muay thai. This partial adaptation that changes the ⟨y⟩ but not the ⟨th⟩ is pretty questionable — made it an alt form for now, since it seems attestable. Polomo47 (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Latin ligō, etym 2 sense 3

Are we sure this is a thing? The dictionaries listed as references exclusively mention senses 1 and 2. Polomo47 (talk) 22:02, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

We never list Georges, which exists there online since the 2000s, it has good examples for the sense “to unite” / vereinigen, dissociata locis concordi pace ligavit and coniugia as an object are strong examples. Probably needs to be in the entry to show that it can also be used figuratively abstractly. Fay Freak (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Ooh, a swift response. I see. Does religō have the same "figurative" / "by extension" meanings? Polomo47 (talk) 22:19, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, though perhaps not as commonly. Our glosses of it are rudimentary. See Cicero Tusc. 3, 17, 37:

Prudentiae vero quid respondebis docenti virtutem sese esse contentam, quo modo ad bene vivendum, sic etiam ad beate? Quae si extrinsecus religata pendeat et non et oriatur a se et rursus ad se revertatur et omnia sua complexa nihil quaerat aliunde, non intellego cur aut verbis tam vehementer ornanda aut re tantopere expetenda videatur.

What answer will you make to prudence, who informs you that she is a virtue sufficient of herself both to teach you a good life and also to secure you a happy one? And, indeed, if she were fettered by external circumstances, and dependent on others, and if she did not originate in herself and return to herself, and also embrace everything in herself, so as to seek no adventitious aid from any quarter, I cannot imagine why she should appear deserving of such lofty panegyrics, or of being sought after with such excessive eagerness.

Fay Freak (talk) 22:40, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Oh, that is a nice example. It does have a different meaning (at least according to the translation) of "restraining" someone (psychologically). So nothing related to uniting and stuff? Polomo47 (talk) 22:44, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

No, because the general meaning is more like aufbinden and anbinden, binding something upon something else. Fay Freak (talk) 22:54, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

single-acting

Can anyone mechanical give single-acting a quick check? It's straight from 1913, so there's probably something missing. Vilipender (talk) 10:15, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Also in chemical and pharmaceutical use (See Google Scholar.) DCDuring (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Classification of Podlachian

Some user has decided to categorize Podlachian under Ukrainian. However, speakers of Podlachian don't identify as Ukrainian speakers, and a not-insignificant amount of Belarusian features are observed in Podlachian, such as /d͡zʲ/. Not to mention that whoever is making these entries is hastily doing so with little regard for proper template usage or even correct etymology, and they're also clogging up the "Ukrainian terms spelled with X" categories, even though Podlachian is nowadays commonly spelt using the Latin alphabet, if written at all, as opposed to Cyrillic. And on spelling, the proposed Podlachian spelling is just one possible one, since this particular orthography doesn't cover all dialects that are grouped as Podlachian. As someone who deals with East-Slavic-adjacent (micro)languages like Carpathian and Pannonian Rusyn, might I suggest moving Podlachian to a whole new "language" or separate classification anyhow? Although I don't know if Podlachian has its own ISO code or even Wiktionary-internal code. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:20, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

This is more certainly a discussion for the BP or Language treatment requests - not long ago there was a thread about this. Vininn126 (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

It is obvious that Podlasie language originated from the Ukrainian dialect continuum (from Middle Ukrainian). And yes, it is on the very edge and borders on Belarusian and may have a couple of features from Belarusian, but this does not make it a descendant of Belarusian. Just as some common features in other dialects of the Ukrainian language from Polesia (for example, from the Zhitomir or Chernihiv regions of Ukraine) do not make it part of the Belarusian language. AshFox (talk) 19:14, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

The dumbo exception: why is its B sounded?

Hello. The B is silent in dumb, dumbness, dumbass, etc., except for dumbo -- why? Thanks, 77.147.79.62 16:27, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

w:Phonological history of English consonant clusters § Reduction of /mb/ and /mn/.

The ending of the exception is not marked enough, so it could have been restored for ideophonic effect of a head smashed against a table and similar, and maintained by analogy to jumbo and other words: you can break grammar if other people don't take note of the irregularity but in turn find justifications. See also rumbo where, because stem morpheme does not have etymological spelling, we feel compelled to explain it as arbitrarily extended. Fay Freak (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

The dumbo-jumbo rhyme may have been influenced or reinforced by the 1941 Disney film Dumbo. Voltaigne (talk) 20:30, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

I think it probably started with jumbo, which was originally the name of a circus elephant and intended to sound foreign and exotic. The Disney character Dumbo was obviously named with that word in mind, and the lowercase dumbo no doubt was a play on the name of the Disney character. In general, all of the words I can think of that end in -mbo (akimbo, bimbo, gumbo, limbo, mambo, mumbo-jumbo etc.) have the b pronounced at the beginning of the final syllable- not silent. Many (but not all) of those have something African in their history. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:42, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

spill - intransitive use in US but not UK?

This Clickhole article contains the sentence "And to make matters worse, you just spilled on the thing you just washed because you just spilled on it." To my ears, this is ungrammatical - in all registers I'm familiar with, "spill" (as a verb performed by a person) needs an object. "I spilled coffee on my shirt" but not *"I spilled on my shirt". However, I'm sure I've heard this phrasing in American media before. I can't find anything about this online, so I thought I'd ask here - Americans, have you heard "I spilled" used intransitively? Is it standard, informal, slang, dialect or just outright never correct? Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:28, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

It apparently is used intransitively in Sex and the City, according to this Instagram post[6]. There are also some British uses here[7] and here[Review on Amazon: Great https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MT6B67J?ref_=cm_sw_r_ud_dprv_E5KAP2PFX7VPKVME2NZJ&language=en-GB]. There are other uses like this funny post here[8], though I don't know where the author is from. Also, 'the menu, I spilt on it' appears as a caption for the Trip Advisor review for Old Beams restaurant in Manama on a Google search but, curiously, if you look at Trip Advisor itself the caption isn't actually on the picture. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:26, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

• I just checked the ngrams for "I spilled on" (this will pick up some background radiation from phrases like "The coffee I spilled on my shirt", of course, but hopefully it's good enough to pick up the trend). Consistent American use seems to begin around 1970 and rise from there. There's no sign of British use until the 1990s. It picks up a lot in both dialects around 2010, but I think that's also when digital publishing means that ngrams starts struggling to distinguish American and British usage. Smurrayinchester (talk) 07:19, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

eher being a comparative form of früh etc

Hi, I noticed that eher is currently listed as a comparative form of früh next to früher (similar for ehesten). But I haven't seen this classification anywhere else -- in fact, Duden lists eher as the comparative form of bald (and Wiktionary even lists "früher" as the comparative of "bald"...). See Duden pages on eher, früh, bald, and especially the page on comparatives. DWDS concurs. Should we amend these and stick to what dictionaries say? Wyverald (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

"früh" has a perfectly fine and usable comparative form of its own, no suppletion necessary (unlike for bald). Seems weird to include it just because it's a synonym. So sure, I think it could be removed. PhoenicianLetters (talk) 09:03, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

tufthunting

Defined as "The practice of seeking after, and hanging on, noblemen, or persons of quality, especially in English universities.". Reeks of old-fashioned English! Vilipender (talk) 21:04, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

More at tufthunter. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:C99:18BB:2D31:EFA8 21:26, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Chihuan

Hace unos 10 años en un país sudamericano de mediano tamaño había una congresista de apellido CHIHUAN, eran tiempos de corrupcion y descontento popular. A esta congresista que ganaba 15,000 soles cuando el mínimo estaba en menos de mil soles, se le estaba entrevistando y ella (Leyla) que había sido jugadora de voleyball de la selección de su pais, en tono pretencioso y un poco acelerado, como en un tono engreído, dijo que el sueldo que ella ganaba, no le alcanzaba para el ritmo de vida que ella tenia... En adelante cuando alguien le faltaba dinero para comprar algo se usaba el término estoy CHIHUAN. Incluso a ella misma le grabaron cuando se le ofrecía algo y regateaba, la sorprendieron diciéndole que estaba CHIHUAN, ella por supuesto se molesto. Por eso pediría que se reconozca está palabra más o menos de alcance regional como válida para expresar su falta de liquidez cuando se desea comprar algo. muchas gracias. espero realmente que la palabra CHIHUAN se la use comparativamente con falta de liquidez monetario. Miguelowsky 123 (talk) 02:29, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@Miguelowsky 123: please read our Criteria for inclusion. If you can present evidence that the word has been used that way without referring specifically to that individual, we might be able to have an entry for it. We're a descriptive dictionary based on usage, so it mainly depends on whether it's been actually used. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:58, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Thesaurus:untimeously

untimeous is marked archaic. So a better choice for the Thesaurus page title would be something still current, like unseasonably. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:E553:74A3:6A38:FB23 10:17, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps Thesaurus:inopportunely? Anyway, yes, moving to a non-archaic name is reasonable. - -sche (discuss) 23:35, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Moved. - -sche (discuss) 19:32, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Latin alphabet, Greek alphabet

We deleted lots of "alphabet"-type entries, e.g., Cyrillic script, Cyrillic alphabet, Hebrew alphabet, Arabic alphabet, but these two remain. Any good reasons why? Worth an RfD? Polomo47 (talk) 01:47, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

punched pocket/sheet protector

These phrases are synonyms which are both used to define a plastic sleeve/pouch with a punched plastic spine used for storing and protecting paper, usually A4, in a ring binder - the idea being that the sheets of paper won’t get ripped or stained, which they might if they were simply punched with a hole punch and hooked onto the rings of the folder without any sort of protective plastic cover. We have translation tables for both entries, which should probably be merged. Do we think the translations should be hosted at punched pocket or at sheet protector? Could anyone check that the right words are given in the translation tables before I merge them, preferably a person who’s fluent in the target language for each word in question (the Polish koszulka shouldn’t be a problem as it appears in both tables). Overlordnat1 (talk) 07:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

The English terms don't seem to me to refer to the same thing. A sheet protector is made of cellophane or other transparent material and may or may not have holes to fit in a binder. A development of that is lamination, from which the laminated paper cannot be readily removed. A pocket (punched or not) is not designed to protect one or more sheets of paper from damage to binder holes, but rather to hold various sizes of unpunched paper items, eg, paper receipts.

As long as we are memorializing dated (obsolete?) office technology: What are the paper rings intended to reinforce holes in paper for ring binders called? Adhesive could be gum or "self-adhesive". hole punch reinforcement labels/stickers and binder hole protectors, (hole) reinforcement labels/stickers all seem too long or misnomers (ie, not transparent and therefore incusion-worthy!). I'm betting that there are short names in some languages. DCDuring (talk) 13:21, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Usually called "ring reinforcements". 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:74DB:73E4:8706:16F6 14:15, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

But, oddly, not on Amazon, where they sell such things, though they seem to have a hard redirect for that term. DCDuring (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

They seem to be called by various names but ‘reinforcement rings’ looks like it’s the most standard term online. Try doing a Google Image search for punched pocket and sheet protector and you’ll see they’re clearly exactly the same thing, so it’s strange that you don’t think so. I suppose you could put old receipts in them instead of sheets or A4 or A5 paper, or even other stationery items like pencils, rubbers/erasers or paper clips but that’s not what they’re designed for. At the website for w:The Range (retailer) you’ll see no less than three different names used to refer to the same product: punched pockets, sheet protectors and even presentation sleeves (though the Google Image results are in less than perfect unanimity in identifying what the third of these phrases refers to). Overlordnat1 (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

As you know, successful search-terms are not attestation. Online retailers will make sure that there are at least redirects, sometimes hard redirects, for any possible search term, so search-term success is far from conclusive. I think more conclusive is how retailers and manufacturers label the items in online listings, catalogs, and packaging. Of course, much of these still aren't attestation, though perhaps they should be. DCDuring (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Secluziune

Hi, i noticed that the word secluziune has a problem in the declension in the genitive-dative form, can someone fix this problem?, Thanks! - Nail123Real (talk) 13:42, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

middle voice, lexical middle voice, syntactic middle voice

Let's merge the three into the more comprehensive middle middle voice, yes? JMGN (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps we should also mention the ‘aorist middle voice’ AKA the ‘aorist middle’? Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:26, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1 mediopassive too? JMGN (talk) 10:48, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps so, it is currently linked to the middle voice entry as it stands though. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Old English definition of the word "stemn"?

Hi, I am attempting to translate the abbot Ælfric's "Grammar and Glossary" to practice my Old English, and came across the sentence fragment "stemn is geslagen lyft gefrêdendlîc on hlyste". From what I can tell, this sentence fragment means something like "voice/sound is struck air perceptible on listening", but the definition of "stemn" given in the relevant Wiktionary entry links to the modern English word "stem", which doesn't seem to fit the meaning of the way Ælfric uses the word here. Does this entry need to be updated for completeness?

I should note that this book is a bilingual text in both Latin and Old English. Later on in the same chapter he says "ǣlc stemn is oððe andgytfullîc oððe gemenged", which is an Old English translation of a Latin quote from Donatus he mentioned above: "omnis vox aut articulata est aut confusa". This makes me think that "stemn" is being used to translate "vox", or voice.

ActionKermit (talk) 12:37, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

@ActionKermit: There are two etymology sections. The second one has "Alternative form of stefn", which fits this passage. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

OK good to know, I must have missed that earlier. ActionKermit (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

stool has same sense under 2 etymologies

The sense of a cut-down plant. It's not clear which etymology is correct: one relates it to stolon but the other says the cut-down plant resembles a stool (chair). Please merge as appropriate. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:8C0B:6FE9:4746:3E03 19:06, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm not 100% certain, but it seems that stool₁ primarily refers to the stalk of a plant or trunk of a tree due to its resemblance to a stool ("seat"). However, stool₂ refers to the "shoots" (stolons) that emerge from the stalk once it's cut. I've updated Etymology 2 to point to stole. Leasnam (talk) 00:10, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

wingnut

Two (uncited) definitions:

(slang, derogatory, Canada and US itinerant and street populations) A mentally ill homeless person.

(slang, derogatory) Someone perceived as odd, eccentric, or extreme.

The first definition relies on an objective fact, not likely readily ascertainable by someone using the term in a slangy, derogatory way. A priori, the second seems a better fit with the labels. This pattern of two definitions, one about objective, but not usually observable fact, the other about perception or attribution, seems to come up repeatedly. How could one attest the two definitions separately? DCDuring (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Perceived as is an editorial insertion. If someone proclaims a book to be “written by a wingnut for wingnuts”,^[9] the meaning they seek to convey is, “written by an excentric person for excentric people”, and definitely not, “written by an person perceived as odd for people perceived as odd”. So just scrap “perceived as”.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:23, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

I would go a step further and scrap the whole definition, but will settle for RFVing it. I don't get the impression that the Goodreads reviewer means "person who is eccentric [in general]", it looks like the political sense ("someone with bizarre or extreme political views") to me, given the very next sentence ("My first clue as to the political persuasion of the author..."). Personally, I think the thing to do is probably just RFV both senses, because in theory, "mentally ill homeless person", "generally eccentric person" and "person with extreme politics" are all distinct, but... only if there are cites... - -sche (discuss) 21:03, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

give a rip

The definition provided is that this is an Australian idiomatic expression meaning to care. When trying to come to grips with giving rips, by itself, this definition could be misleading. It may be useful to also include give it a rip, another Australian idiomatic expression meaning to have a go, especially in the sense of doing so with some recklessness or with enthusiasm that may not be fully informed. 103.22.147.124 04:22, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

field day

The etymology says the idiomatic sense ("have a field day") may derive from the "parade day sense". But we don't have such a sense; we only have a "maneuver and tactical exercise sense". If there is a "parade day sense", it must be created and cited. If not, I think the idiomatic use could still be military, because field exercises tend to be considered more interesting than a soldier's boring everyday drill and at any rate there is a lot going on. Apart from that, I'm not sure the media sense (sense 5) is very well defined. Doesn't it mean more like: they can exploit this thing easily and turn it into a big story? 2.207.102.157 13:25, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Bison bison bison

The head template there seems to be wrong. Anyone know how it’s supposed to look? Polomo47 (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. DCDuring (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

@DCDuring Is Bison bison bison bison real? It looks like Wonderfolly to me... Vilipender (talk) 07:59, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Probably not. The instances of 4xbison in Scholar and Books searches that I have seen are, for example, "(plains) bison (Bison bison bison)". I keep on assuming that we all follow the Gricean maxims and don't prank each other or our users. DCDuring (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

It is conceivable that such a 'subsubspecies' term could be used. And certainly Bison bison bison gets a lot of attention. If someone finds citations we can add it, of course. For now I've removed the two hyponyms. Derived terms and Hyponyms are probably generously salted with such not-quite-worth-rooting-out prank terms. DCDuring (talk) 12:07, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Baxter-Sagart for 夤 seems malformed

it's showing as *[ɢ[(r)ə[r], which seems malformed due to the unbalanced square brackets. the error shows up in Baxter-Sagart's actual data (i.e., from https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/ocbaxtersagart/), so it seems to have propagated from there. probably supposed to be *[ɢ](r)ə[r]. Iwsfutcmd (talk) 01:17, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, this looks straightforwardly like a typo, so I have revised Module:zh/data/och-pron-BS/夤. (It would be polite of you to also send Baxter an e-mail letting him know to fix the typo in his own data.) If this unexpectedly causes problems, or more modules need to be edited, let me know. - -sche (discuss) 22:29, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

swell idea, thank you! Iwsfutcmd (talk) 01:30, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

knackered

Weird stuff going on. I expected better from a Word of the Day (TBF, it was probably before SGconlaw's time as WOTD-setter. SG, the mighty user, would never allow such crap!)

• Usage notes: Particularly the sentence "To imply for oneself, that you are ready to be shot and turned into glue, was considered distasteful, particularly for your own mother, who would be most likely object to its use." The pronoun use is odd, as is the reference to my own mother.
• Bullet points are inconsistent
• The phrase "the concept of a knackers yard no longer triggers visceral memories" is very ORLY??.
• That last phrase might belong in Etymology 2
• Do we even need 2 etymologies?
• Is Kerry Packered Cockney rhyming slang? He's not famous in London. Australian rhyming slang better.

Vilipender (talk) 07:56, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

This entry looks rather odd. Also at knacker, the sense of ‘a person who makes knickknacks’ comes from ‘knickknack’ from the older ‘knack’ meaning ‘toy’ which is of imitative origin and not related to the Norse word for saddle, so we should probably have two etymologies there. Overlordnat1 (talk) 23:38, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Yup, the entry was neither edited nor set as WOTD by me. To be fair to the editor who did so, some of the changes could have been made after the word appeared as WOTD. — Sgconlaw (talk) 23:44, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Polish izba as "forty"

Replying to a revert by @Vininn126:

> where are on earth are you getting that?

This was used a couple of days ago by cabaret Ani Mru Mru in their sketch. You can also find various summaries of those kinds of numbers e.g. here or here, but neither of those seemed authoritative enough to include as references, and I couldn't find any decent older source.

> also be aware of time labels - archaic = archaicizing, dated = falling out of use, obsolete = not used, Middle Polish = 1500-1780

I spent a good few minutes thinking about which fits best. I couldn't find the exact dates these numbers were used, and so decided "archaic" fits best, as it's no longer in general use (I've never heard it used like that before this sketch and I'm a native Polish speaker), but can probably be found in older texts (I couldn't find one after a couple of minutes, though). You can find it in that recent sketch – in it it's mentioned as "dawna liczba". Perhaps "obsolete" or "Middle Polish" would be more appropriate. Uukgoblin (talk) 20:20, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Well keep Wiktionary's WT:CFI in mind. We are secondary, not primary. Providing a quote would be great. Vininn126 (talk) 20:42, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

I've just found it on Polish Wikipedia, but it's also missing a citation :-( Uukgoblin (talk) 21:00, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

No, you're missing my point! Quotes of usage examples are enough. Granted, these all seem to be mentions... Vininn126 (talk) 08:37, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

GenAm or RP /ʊs/-/us/ minimal pairs

Are there some? Probably, but I can't think of them at the moment. Both puss-puce and bussy-Brucey are close but imperfect as each also involves another sound change. - -sche (discuss) 03:10, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

I can’t really think of any examples in any accent, though there are probably some people in Northern Ireland who say ‘ruster’ and rooster the same. We don’t currently have an English entry for ruster but there are many instances online of ‘ruster’ to mean something (whether a metal household object, a musical instrument, a car, a motorbike or a gun) that has rusted or is rusting or likely to rust or someone who doesn’t look after metal objects and lets them rust, or even something that causes things to rust[10] ('ruster of a stone chip'). There’s even one Northumberland dialect book saying a ‘ruster’ is a ‘reesty horse’, which apparently means a lazy horse (one that ‘reests’ (rests) too much). It also means a rose (or other flower?) that is developing rust or a rusty (out of practice) person, hence a description of a track and field event being a ‘ruster buster tourney’.

I even found an example of 'ruster' as a pronunciation spelling representing folksy American speech on Google Books[11] (Foolishest thing I ever see, At home or anywhere, Is a ruster standin' in one leg When he hez got a pair.) (it's only a snippet view but I would imagine the strange capitalisation and lack of full stops is in the original, I don't know exactly which accent is being depicted here).

rust/roost, lust/loosed and just/juiced would be better examples though (and I've definitely heard Scottish people say just and juiced in the same way). --Overlordnat1 (talk) 08:30, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

voilà, voici

French. The Usage notes of these French words say:

• As a verb, it can take direct object pronouns:

  La voilà! ― There she is!

I think that is misleading: they can take any valid clitic combination, not just accusative (direct object) clitics.

French Wiktionary defines Italian ecco compounds as the equivalent French voilà showing that is the case:

• fr:eccogli ― lui voilà
• fr:eccomici ― m'y voilà
• fr:eccotele ― te les voilà
• fr:eccocene ― nous en voilà

Can someone please update the Usage notes to clarify this? o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Done! Saumache (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! It still doesn't say anything about y and en though: as far as I understand, you can say e.g. "en voici deux" (Italian eccone due, "here are two"), "et nous y voici", etc. Can't it be reworded more generally instead of explicitly saying "direct object", "indirect object"? Emanuele6 (talk) 18:30, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't think it was that necessary, it now makes for quite a bulky usage notes. Saumache (talk) 19:41, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

I also don't think it's necessary to be so explicit and risk leaving out something that can be misleading: it's that if it only says it can accept "direct object", I don't assume it can also be used as "lui voici" like Italian eccogli, and I did make that mistake seeing the Usage notes.

While it is pretty much true that "en" is just "de ...", it's not like it falls in the category of "direct objects": Italian eccone la prova, French en voici la preuve.

Can't it just say it can accept clitics like verbs like manger, and provide some examples that show combinations without going in so much detail? o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 19:51, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Well, either way, I think it is also fine as you have changed it now, so thank you! Emanuele6 (talk) 19:57, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Also I didn't notice you also used "en voici la preuve" as an example; we came up with the same example, hehe. Emanuele6 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

I always try to make use of idiomatics/set expressions, this one really had to come up apparently :) Saumache (talk) 20:11, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

@Saumache I don't think it was that necessary

Oh, I understand why you think that now. In French, voici and voilà are considered defective verbs with no other inflections, so it is only natural that they can take en and y.

In Italian, ecco is typically considered an adverb, so the fact it can take clitics is not obvious at all! It (and riecco, ririecco, ...) is the only non-verb/participle word that can take clitics.

I didn't consider that it should have been obvious that they can take dative clitics, y, and en from the fact they are defined as Verbs, unlike Italian ecco. Sorry. Emanuele6 (talk) 01:46, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

I mean, I like it that way but if someone chide me for having been over-copious and cluttery I'll bring it down a little, be more general and move the uxi's to the section above. I have deleted a reply I had sent in which I did explain my why its unnecessary to mention y and en. Saumache (talk) 07:12, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

June 2025

Gay

The sense ‘lame, uncool’ should be placed at last because it is homophobic. Please add (offensive)

1. homosexual 2. joyful 3. (offensive) uncool, lame ZZwi (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Which exact page are you talking about? The page I see looks nothing like what you wrote.

Wiktionary (the English one) already classifies it as slang and derogatory, and says it's a pejorative sense. And it's already far from first, though maybe not last; also, words don't go in the order of how much you personally approve of them. If there's any order, it should be how often they're currently used – not how often you personally would like them to be used in the future. TooManyFingers (talk) 15:26, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

The pejorative senses should be pleased at last and not the second. The meaning joyful is the second place ZZwi (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Which exact page are you talking about? Instead of copying things, please give the address of the page. TooManyFingers (talk) 04:20, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Looking at the real Wiktionary page for "gay", it looks to me like it has been done very carefully, correctly, and respectfully.

We cannot pretend that the "joyful, happy" meaning is important. It was at one time, but people have mostly stopped using it. (I don't see you complaining that the real meaning of "silly" is "uncomplicated", but that is the type of thing you're doing here.)

Words are explained in the ways people are really using them. Old, unused meanings do exist, but they are less important. And moving offensive words lower on the list is useless. People don't come here to learn to talk; they come here to find out what words mean, and if we tried to hide some meanings then we'd just be making the dictionary worse. TooManyFingers (talk) 05:12, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Layout of gay

Homosexual: (of a person) Possessing sexual and/or romanticattraction towards people one perceives to be the same sexor gender as oneself. [from 1950] Cliff is gay, but his twin brother is straight. (strictly) Describing a homosexual man. gay and lesbian people (of an animal, by extension)Tending to partner or mate with other individuals of the same sex. (of a romantic or sexual act or relationship) Between two or more persons perceived to be of the same sex or gender as each other. Although the number of gay weddings has increased significantly, many gay and lesbian couples — like many straight couples — are not interested in getting married. gay marriage gay sex (colloquial) Not heterosexual, or not cisgender: homosexual, bisexual, asexual, transgender, etc. Coordinate term: LGBTQ (of an institution or group) Intended for gay people, especially gay men. She professes an undying love for gay bars and gay movies, and even admits to having watched gay porn. (slang, with for) Homosexually in love with someone. (slang, humorous, with for) Infatuated with something, aligning with homosexual stereotypes. In accordance with stereotypes of homosexual people: (loosely, of appearance or behavior) Being in accordance with stereotypes of gay people, especially gay men. (loosely, of a person, especially a man)Exhibiting appearance or behavior that accords with stereotypes of gay people, especially gay men. A pejorative: (slang, derogatory) Effeminate or flamboyant in behavior. (slang, derogatory) Used to express dislike: lame, uncool, stupid, burdensome, contemptible, generally bad. Synonym: ghey This game is gay; let’s play a different one. (dated) Happy, joyful, and lively. The Gay Science (dated) Quick, fast. (dated) Festive, bright, or colourful. Pennsylvania Dutch include the plain folk and the gayfolk. (obsolete) Sexually promiscuous (of any gender), (sometimes particularly) engaged in prostitution. (of a dog's tail) Upright or curved over the back. (Scotland, Northern England, possibly obsolete)Considerable, great, large in number, size, or degree. In this sense, also in the variant gey. The pejorative sense should be placed at last ZZwi (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

Please give the page address that this came from. TooManyFingers (talk) 04:24, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

I know of two ways to order senses: by commonality, and by derivation. What I see as most common is to write the most common senses first, and the less common ones after, with equally common uses ordered in whatever way can establish a logical progression (like, if a sense came from extension of another, it can be listed after it). The way you changed the page harms users, because it misrepresents how common such usage is (very common!) Polomo47 (talk) 15:29, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

coisar

There's already a good entry for the Portuguese word "coisar", a verb that acts as a placeholder for some other verb the speaker can't remember or doesn't know. I'd just like to suggest that, at least informally, a literal translation into English can make sense as a way of demonstrating the word. For example: "My keyboard quit, but Jan thinged it and now it's working again". TooManyFingers (talk) 15:00, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Good idea. Made changes to the entry. Polomo47 (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2025 (UTC)