Wikipedia:Peer review/George Mason/archive1

George Mason

I've listed this article for peer review because… I'd like feedback prior to FAC

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 08:56, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

Leaving the lead till last, more meo, here's my first batch of comments, to the end of "Virginia constitution":

• Ancestry and early life
  • "born in Pershore, United Kingdom, in the English county of Worcestershire in 1629" – one bit more information than we need here, I think: either the UK or the English county, but not both, meseems.

Forgot to pipe that. I have better excuse than The New York Times, which in a recent piece about asylum seekers (or whatever, I can't keep up with the terminology) said they had walked to "Kent County". I did send them an email to which they have not responded.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• • "and Native American areas … hard on the Indians" – the latter being the former, doubtless, but it looks odd, and perhaps of doubtful political correctness.

Either is still acceptable in American English. Out of caution, I tend to give the NA term precedence, but it gets clunky. I could put "tribes"?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• • "They lived in a colonial Virginia" – the pronoun looks a bit lost here: perhaps "the family" or some such?
  • "Into this world was born George Mason, fourth of that name" – repeats info from first para of section
  • "crossing the Potomac River" – it was just "the Potomac" in the preceding sentence.

Just trying to avoid the repetition but I suppose it's OK.

• • "doubtlessly had the run" – perhaps an Engvar thing, but I'd write "doubtless" here rather than "doubtlessly".

It's an Engvar thing.

• • "appropriate to his age, for example … a beaver hat in 1742" – is there an appropriate age for that sort of headgear? (Later: that could be read as a rude remark by me about beaver hats, but it isn't meant to be - merely to question whether wearing them is seen as suited to any particular age. Tim riley talk 15:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC))

I suppose it was the long trousers of its day. Multiple sources mention this but aren't terribly informative about the details.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:26, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Virginia landed gentleman
  • "George Mason began to build his home" – do we want his given name here? And there are two "likely"s in close proximity here, one of which might perhaps be changed to "probably"

Re: given name. It may be overcaution, but I felt that "Mason" being a building trade and all, it might be interpreted wrongly.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• • "leasing much of his land holdings" – "leasing" is a tricky word: it can mean taking a lease or granting one. I imagine the latter is meant here, but it could be clarified.
  • "dissolved the legislature because of the radical resolutions that were passing it" – do bills pass the legislature or does the legislature pass bills?
• Declaration of Rights
  • Third para – two more "likely"s in close proximity
  • Henry C. Riely needs to learn how to spell his surname properly. Pshaw! And possibly even Faugh!

But to him, you are the typographic error ...

More soonest. I hadn't heard of Mason until now and am finding him an interesting new acquaintance thus far. – Tim riley talk 14:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm glad you are enjoying his acquaintance. I was just down at his university swapping old books for new and I had a few words with his statue. Strong silent type I am afraid.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I think I've done everything except as commented.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Round 2

to the end of Views on slavery

• Wartime legislator
  • "Although he served for several months on the committee, most of the work fell to Jefferson" – a determinedly perverse reader (e.g. me) could take the "he" to mean Jefferson.
  • "the Mason-Dixon line (not named for George Mason" – shrewd parenthetical addition: aliens like me might easily have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
  • "it was a marriage of convenience" – oh, look, you can't just say that. It arouses the reader's nosiest instincts. In what way a m. of c.?
• Peace (1781–1786)
  • "Among the visiting … was one" – I think "visits" might work better with the verb here, perhaps.
  • "the pendency of land legislation" – I had to get my dictionary off the shelf for that one, and according to Chambers "pendency" is used in this demi-paradise for purely physical pending ("droop" is the other definition it gives). For the benefit of your readers in the former colonial power, could I make a case for "hoped that because land legislation was pending Mason might be inclined to come to Richmond", or similar?
• Building a constitution
  • "But it was not until May 25" – loud cheers for a fellow-editor who is not cowed by the superstition about starting a sentence with But or And. Resist any attempts to budge you!
  • "Mason designed his home [Gunston Hall] so that…" – I think we could do with being told inline who said this of him.
  • "hopes of all the Union centre [sic] in this Convention" – there is no need to apologise for getting the spelling right: this was before Webster's nostrums became common currency, after all. (I don't expect you to act on my advice here.)
  • "it would be impossible for the federal government to take no action because of state jurisdiction" – I needed to read this twice, and I wonder if instead of "to take no action" it might be more immediately clear as "to refrain from action" or "fail to act"?
  • "Although Mason proposals had failed to require senators to own property and not be in debt to the United States, the minimum" – I misread this at first go: perhaps something like "Mason had failed to carry his proposals that senators must own property and not be in debt to the United States, but he successfully argued that the minimum age for service…"?
• Road to dissent
  • "Luther Martin of Maryland" – I swear you make these names up.

It gets worse. Button Gwinnett signed the Declaration of Independence.

Oh, yes. Gwinnett County, Georgia, a major population center in metro Atlanta, is named for Gwinnett. The county seat, Lawrenceville, is named for James Lawrence. I think you will note a pattern in the selection of geographic names by the good people of Gwinnett County. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• Views on slavery
  • "Manumitted" – a link would probably be welcomed by many readers.

Last batch tomorrow, I hope. I have to cook lunch for an American lawyer friend now [sic]. Mason continues to hold my interest strongly. – Tim riley talk 11:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, enjoy. Although I think we managed perfectly well with a bottle of red ...--Wehwalt (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Last lot

• Legacy and historical view
  • "Mason's legacy has extended overseas, even in his lifetime" – I feel obscurely, and only very slightly, ill at ease with this phrasing: it seems to jump from the present ("has extended") back to the past without any grammatical switch, though no better wording leaps to mind. I merely mention the point.
  • "descend through the pen of his opponent Madison" – I was a little surprised at this: I didn't – and rereading still don't – get much impression of downright opposition between the two, having checked out all 25 other mentions of Madison.
  • I might, if I were you, be inclined to ask the wonder-workers at the Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Photography workshop to straighten the image of the university grounds and statue, which could, in my view, be a bit bigger, too: bumped up to upright=1.25 perhaps.
• Lead:
  • "one of three men who refused to sign the document" – which document? (Yes, I know, but
  • His father died when he was young – to avoid theoretical, and perhaps real, ambiguity I'd turn the "he" into "Mason" here.
  • and used his savvy – to an English eye this looks very slangy but I defer to your mastery of AmEng.

I think it's fairly established in our branch of the language.

That's my lot. I enjoyed this article, and 11,500 words notwithstanding, it didn't seem overlong to me. If I have any criticism on that score it is that Gunston Hall, though having its own article, gets a pretty fair whack here too about the house and estate, and I wonder if that could be trimmed a little. That apart, it's praise all the way from me. – Tim riley talk 14:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I've as you suggested and played with the language a bit, and also played with the image, though I fear the statue keeps getting more prominent. As well it should. Thank you indeed for your comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

Here's a start. I imagined before I began reading the article that he was something to do with the Mason-Dixon line, but he is clearly someone else.

Lead

• I would pipelink "During the war" to American Revolutionary War
• What is a "supermajority"?

Ancestry and early life

• There's a repeated "had" in the first line
• I would look for a suitable pipe for "Royalist"; perhaps Cavalier
• "George began his education with a Mr. Williams hired to teach him..." A comma is suggested after "Mr Williams"

Public figure

• Two semicolons in a single sentence (second stce first para) is not really permitted.
• "considered that court service a major influence on Mason's later thinking..." Do we need "that"

Squire of Gunston Hall

• "though in which residence there..." The "there" is unnecessary (implied)
• "architectural books sent to America" – from where? This surely has a bearing on the style of the building.
• "I found the detailing re Thomson and Buckland a little confusing and unnecessary.
• "Mason was proud of the gardens which surround the house, and took delight in an optical illusion that made it appear, from the center of the porch, that there were only four cherry trees, but when one stepped to the side, a large number of trees came into view." Is this detail really important enough for an encyclopedia article?
• "the colony became a major exporter to the British West Indies" – of wheat, presumably.
• There's a superfluous "of it".
• "including his Fairfax County neighbor, George Washington" is followed immediately by a statement that Mason and Washington were neighbors
• "prices for it" → "its price"

More to come. Brianboulton (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Done up to date, more or less as suggested.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Second instalment:

From burgess to rebel

• "most notable for his inclusion of his anti-slavery views" → "most notable for the inclusion of his anti-slavery views"?
• " the adopted resolution closely track both the Fairfax Resolves" – either "resolutions" ot "tracks", but not as it stands
• "Despite the importuning of many delegates, Mason refused to consider election as a delegate to the Continental Congress in place of Washington when he became commanding general of the Continental Army..." There's a slight ambiguity here, which could be avoided by "in place of Washington who resigned when he became commanding general of the Continental Army...".

Declaration of Rights

• I am puzzled by: "a citizen could not be not bound by a law not accepted by that person" – seemingly a triple negative which, for me, obscures any meaning.
• "there were a flurry" → "there was a flurry"
• Is the image in this section Jefferson? The caption doesn't identify him.

Virginia constitution

• "The 1776 constitution remained in force until 1830, when another convention drafted a new one for Virginia": Suggest slight rephrase: "The 1776 Virginia constitution remained in force until 1830, when another convention replaced it".

Wartime legislator

• I think at this point you should specify that "wartime" refers to the American War of Independence; I am not sure this is yet clear to the reader.
• "Due to illness caused by a botched smallpox inoculation, Mason was forced to miss part of the legislature's spring 1777 session, and delegates on May 22 elected him to the Continental Congress": The "and" sits oddly in this sentence; the two parts do not appear to be related.
• "The new governments..." – plural: is this intentional?
• "Due to illness, Mason was three weeks late in arriving..." – arriving where?
• Is there nothing to be said about Sarah Brent other than her age?

Will soldier on... Brianboulton (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I've dealt with those.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:19, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Third instalment:

Peace

• "returned to normalcy" – shades of Harding! "returned to normal" seems more natural.
• Do we have a date for Madison's visit to Gunston Hall? "The same month", and the reference to Christmas, suggests December 1783.
• The opening sentence of the second paragraph could profitably be split.
• "...the Mount Vernon Conference. Although the Mount Vernon Conference..." Avoidable repetition ("Athough the conference..." etc)
• Link Constitutional Convention
• I suggest a slight reworking of the following wording: " Five other ports, including Alexandria, were eventually added, but the act proved unpopular despite the support of Washington. Mason, an opponent of the Port Act..." to "Five other ports, including Alexandria, were eventually added, but the Port Act proved unpopular despite the support of Washington. Mason, an opponent of the act..."

Building a constitution

• Some unnecessary detailing in the first paragraph. Mason is elected as a delegate, declines, is replaced by someone of whom we hear no more, but then agrees to the governor's request that he accept election and goes to the convention. All you really need to say is that Mason accepted "after some hesitation" or similar wording. Then we are told that he "urged Governor Randolph to stop at Gunston Hall on his way north", but not told why or whether the governor did. That detail could surely go.
• Unnecessary sentence: "In attending the convention, Mason involved himself in broader politics than that of Virginia, varying from his usual practice" – implied from the previous sentence.
• "Broadwater suggested that that..."
• "...he won as many convention debates as he lost" – I think so strong a statement should be attributed.
• "The Virginia Plan, if implemented, would cause representation in both houses of the federal legislature to be based on population". Could be: "The Virginia Plan, if implemented, would base representation in both houses of the federal legislature on population".
• Deadlock mentioned twice; you could do away with "With the convention deadlocked"

Road to dissent

• I'm not sure how Madison's quote ("it has been said..." etc) relates to Madison's request for a minimum age.
• "regular reapportionment of the House of Representatives" – could do with some clarification. I take it you mean regularly adjusting the House's membership to reflect changes in states' populations, but this isn't presently obvious.
• "Another moment when Mason did not get his way on a matter he considered important..." seems an over-wordy introduction. Something like "Mason suffered another significant defeat on..." etc would do as well.

Ratification battle

• "in October, it was published..." – year?
• "on the Lees" – "on the Lee family" might be better, with a later reference to "the Washingtons"
• "The elections had given the Federalists a slight advantage" almost replicates your earlier wording ("The Federalists were believed to have a slight advantage"), and one or other of these phrases could be rejigged.

I'll try and deal with the final sections within the next 24 hours. Brianboulton (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I've implement your suggestions, and cut a few sentences that struck me as extraneous on re reading.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

A few final points from the remaining sections:

• "Washington ... resented Mason's strong stances against the ratification of the constitution, destroying their friendship". This reads as though it was Washington's resentement, rather than Mason's stance, that destroyed their friendship. Unless this was indeed the case, I suggest a slight tweak: "...constitution, an attitude that destroyed their friendship".
• " battle against the Alexandria interests" – this seems rather general; what specific interests was he fighting?
• Drop the second "slaves" in the first line of "Views on slavery"
• "about how writers on Mason have interpreted him" → "about how writers have interpreted Mason"
• "a sympathetic white southerner writing during the heyday of Jim Crow" – whose description?
• "According to Wallenstein, both historians" – advise drop "both". It reads confusingly otherwise.
• "The difficulty in reconciling wanting..." Awkward. I suggest: "the difficulty in reconciling support for..."
• I'm afraid I couldn't understand Nicholas's comments at all. Maybe a quote too far – the position was pretty clear up to then.
• Does "18¢" signify 18 cents?

Sorry to have taken so long, but it's been difficult finding the time for a sustained read. Well worth the effort, though. Brianboulton (talk) 19:45, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. I think he's worth the length.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:32, 22 November 2015 (UTC)